TikTok Part 2: The Silent Force from China

the numbers we had were just staggering. And you know what happens when you get big in the startup world, either you get really really big and you go public or you get acquired. And John was hoping Flipogram might get bought by a big name tech company like Apple or Facebook. I mean, if Facebook wanted Instagram, why not Flipogram. But instead, the buyer that came calling was a company in China that John had never heard of, called byte Dance.

The first time it came up, you know, like a Chinese tech company, Like, we were like no, we were disappointed, um because you know, we hadn't heard of it. We you know, we were hoping for some big exit to to a Facebook or you know, we wanted a high profile company, you know, and yeah, and so to have a Chinese tech company that we never heard of was not exciting. But this was a company that acquired Flipogram. Bye Dance had money to spend and they wanted to

have a bigger presence in the US. They also wanted Flipogram because of the music deals it had with major record labels. After the acquisition went through, the CEO of Bye Dance flew to l A to check out the

American company he had just purchased. And I think it was December when Yiming, the CEO By Dance, came to our office and uh he told us about by Dance, and I just remember him showing some of the data and the products, and you know, I was like, oh, wow, this is this isn't some unknown little Chinese tech company, this is this thing is massive, This is really interesting.

Bye Dance was massive. They were valued at ten billion dollars in and they had just raised a huge funding ground from some major VC firms with one goal in mind. I think they were trying to get a real footholds in the United States and and you know, we're really trying to branch out of China and Though the Flipogram team was impressed by the size and scope of Bye Dance by Dances, CEO John Uming brought along something else

to sweeten the deal. I think it was almost the Chinese New Year, and so they had handed out, you know, red envelopes with with cash in it, and I thought, well, that's a that's a good start. I guess it's customary in China to give small cash gifts during the New Year. But it's so funny to me that Bye Dances paying millions of dollars to acquire Flipogram, and the thing John remembers is the fifty bucks he got in the red envelope.

Flipp Agram was not the first or the last startup that Bye Dance would acquire, because a year and a half later, Bye Dance buys a lip sinking app called Musically, meaning overnight, by Dance goes from having almost no presence in the US to having over a hundred million American users, and the Musically acquisition was the basis for Bye dances most famous product, TikTok. I'm Shelley Banjo. You're listening to Foundering.

In the previous episode, we told you about Musically and its eccentric founder Alex jew Musically is important because it served as a blueprint for TikTok. The apps even look similar, and many of the Baby Musically users would grow up to become stars on TikTok. But TikTok's global scale, it's insane popularity, it's advanced algorithms. Well, that's all thanks to

Byte Dance. This episode will tell you the story of Bye Dances Rise, It's ambitious CEO, John y Ming, and how it grew to become the biggest startup in the world after a quick break by Dances. Founder Johnny Ming is not a household name, but he's fundamentally changed the way people consume media on their phones. He's basically outplayed Mark Zuckerberg and Evan Spiegel at their own game. John says he was really surprised by Johnny Ming's personality when

they first met. Founders tend to be you know, loud or you know, bullish or big personalities, overly charismatic, and uh, you know, he just didn't have any of that. Quiet and humble and and you know, always bowing in a way and you know, very un American in a way, right like, and that for someone to have created something so compelling and so successful, and to carry yourself like that, I think is actually a testament of character. Johnny Ming was born in i teen eight three. He's the only

son of two government workers. He grew up in Fujian Province, which is a coastal region in China where some of the first private companies popped up when China started opening up to the world. E Main studied software engineering at Nankai University and was invited back to his alma mater in sixteen to talk to the incoming freshman students. He told them that making friends didn't come naturally to him, so he relied on his love of computers to help get him through college. So I put it, you can

put the taint. How did I socialize as a science student who didn't usually participate in group activities. I mainly relied to my interest in repairing computers. I helped classmates choose components and assembled dozens of computers. Of course, a lot of them were for female classmates. Repairing computers has led to some of the great achievements in my life. I met my girlfriend at the time, who is my wife. Now. When I fixed the computer, you take a stuff. Uh well,

if that's not true love, then really what is? The Means said he was bookish and quiet. He kept to himself even in college when the other students who are playing video games and card games. I spent that time reading books. And I wasn't just reading books and computer programming. I was looking at different biographies, local and international newspapers and magazines. He means love of biographies is a detail that really sticks out for me. It's something he mentions frequently.

Would face on that list. I have to say, biographies work almost like a sort of chicken soup for the soul. And I've read a lot of biographies. I learned that many successful people seemed to lead ordinary lives. Four have you achieved great success? The actions looked insignificant at the time, but in the end, the dots connect and you can

see the arc of the success. It's fun to imagine, you mean, as a college student spending his time fixing computers and just devouring these biographies, he studied the lives of these towering figures closely. I think that's because he yearned to build something great, just like the men and women in the books. Years later, after Bite Dance, had already gotten pretty big. I visited its Beijing headquarters for some interviews, and I remember seeing these oversized posters of

book covers hanging on their office walls. They were biographies of legendary American tech founders like Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos. I found it so unusual. I snapped some pictures and sent them to my editor. It's not every day you see an oversized photo of Jeff bezos face hanging from the walls of a Chinese company. I mean mentions this again during his first interview with Western Media. My colleague Peter Elstrom sat down with him in TV. Notice heming

only brings up American tech founders. This is role models, not say a Chinese founder like Ali Baba's Jack Ma. But I read quite a lot of story about Bill Gates while I was young, and Steve Jobs and what's nek well I graduated, uh graduate from university. I paid quite a lot of attention to Amazon and Facebook. I get two things out of this tape. One he means not just some engineer who only cares about code. He's

paying attention to how businesses are running. And two, he's got his eyes on the competition I paid attention to Facebook from two thousand and six, so I think they start company into Southerland four and I graduated to Southland five. Notice how he emphasizes his attention to Facebook because a few years after this interview, Meming Company would post the biggest threat Facebook had ever seen. And here he's saying that he was tracking Facebook closely, almost a decade before

bye Dance even existed. After college, I mean became a software engineer. He worked at a bunch of startups and did a brief stint at Microsoft, but quit because he said it was too boring. Yeah, I disiplated several in several stops. Most such engine companies or social network companies. I think, oh for companies before our studies company in He founded byte Dance out of a Beijing apartment when he was twenty nine years old. His first product was a mobile app that showed you jokes, and it was

really simple. You see a joke or a funny meme pop up on your phone and you give it a thumbs up or a thumbs down. The concept seemed pretty basic, but it was the foundation for all of byte Dance's future products. First, they figured out what makes each person laugh. Then as the comp and expanded into news and video, they were learning what individual users wanted to read and watch. They were collecting reams and reams of data. Here's Lugen, a former senior executive at Bite Dance in nineteen um.

So the company was actually founded, I think, with the very simple purpose of connecting information people in a new way, in a mobile way. Then later on we um addam not only news but all formats of content, a variety of contents, you know, funny jokes, entertainment. Later she would like in the artificial intelligence behind the app to a child.

She told me. It takes time to build up the child's intelligence, but once you do, they'll grow up to be a super smart adult, capable of more and more things. The technology that Eiming developed for the Joke's app would fuel the rise of the company's next hit product, Tota, a Chinese newsreader that would make Bite Dance ubiquitous across China and catch the attention of venture capitalists around the world. Let me try to convey to you just how big

Tokyo is in China. It's been downloaded more than seven dred million times, the closest comparison in the US is probably Google News, but Toteo is a much bigger deal because for lots of folks in China, Tokyo has become the only place they get the news. They've abandoned other newspapers and media websites, which are largely controlled by the

Chinese government. Tokyo delivers a totally different experience. AI algorithms pick and choose the articles you see based on your preferences and personality, and that gives By Dance deep insight into the minds of its users. Here's an interview with you mean during a tech event in Shanghai Yo. What if the day comes when Bye Dance knows me better than my own husband? Are you worried about that that there might be an app that understands you bader than

the people around you. Computer algorithms are getting smarter and smarter, but very essentially simple and pure. How can I be sure that the algorithm will remain simple and pure when you're the guy behind the machines, well, I am also very pure. Who can guarantee that they will stay pure? Honestly, computers are basically simple and pure. A lot of people worry that computers might become monsters and do evil things, but honestly, computers break everything into small steps that people

observe and control. I think we probably don't have to worry about computers, and maybe we should worry more about people. I've never heard a CEO talk about his pure intentions on TV. It's kind of bizarre. But the other thing that's interesting here is that the news anchor is really pushing him on deep day AATA mining and his apparent disregard for user privacy, and heman kind of laughs it off. He says he really believes in the purity of the

technology and of his own good intentions. It's funny to listen to this tape all these years later, because the biggest controversy around TikTok basically boils down to this what are they doing with all the user data they've collected, and as China's government have access to data from Americans. Even now, ey Ming has maintained that all these fears over national security are unfounded, and his message has been pretty consistent. He's essentially saying, I'm a good guy and

I built a good product. You can trust me. Ming is now one of the richest people in China. But when he started his company, his success was anything but assured because he was coming up during a boom time for the Chinese tech industry. Competition was cut throat and it was hard to know which companies were going to flop and which ones would hit it big. You're watching history from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, America's money mecca. Ali Baba will in fact be the

largest I p O in history. This is a profitable company. It's a very very profitable company. And that's you know, a lot of these I p o s are not. A percent of Americans had no idea what Ali Baba was. And you're talking about the biggest I p O in U S history. Bigger than Visa, bigger than Twitter, bigger than Facebook. This company is massive. That euphoria spiked in September when Ali Baba listed on the New York Stock Exchange.

It was worth twenty five billion dollars and investors started searching for the next Ali Baba, the next Chinese success story. Around that time, you mean hopped on a plane to California with a group of other young Chinese founders that were I in the US market. There, they toured the halls of hot Silicon Valley tech companies like Facebook, Google, Tesla, and you Mean became convinced that a Chinese tech entrepreneur like himself could compete with the Googles and facebooks of

the world. Eming even gave a speech at a conference held on Facebook's Menlo Park campus about China's growing texting. He called his presentation the Future of Information. During his speech, he laid out a roadbap for his vision of social media. He told the audience, we aggregate as much data as possible and analyze every action from each user. I see this is really foreboding. Eming went into Facebook's office and

gave them a peek into his own aggressive tactics. It was like an early warning of what was to come. We'll be right back. In China, the tech industry is dominated by just two companies, Ali Baba and Tencent, and they have lots of money. And one thing about China is that, unlike the US, there wasn't a well established system of venture capital, so Ali Baba and Tencent essentially act as the vcs. They funneled billions to startups to get a piece of what's coming and to head off

the competition. So if you're a hot tech startup like Bye Dance, It's basically understood you'll choose one side or the other, Ali Baba or ten Cent. For Bye Dance, it was ten Cent that came calling. They approached you mean to invest in his company, but you being made a very unusual move. He turned the money down. Ballet tin Atala. Earlier this year there was news that ten Cent was interested in buying a stake and Bye Dance and that you turned down the investment. Do you go?

When that news came out, a colleague told me he didn't join by Dance to become a tense Cent employee, and I told him I didn't found by Dance to become a ten Cent employee either. It's not to say we have a problem with working with ten Cent or competing with Tencent or what I want is that we become a company that builds a platform that adds value to society, and that we do that by ourselves. That

was you mean? Speaking on CCTV in you can hear the pride in his voice as he says he didn't want to be beholden to anyone, even if it meant turning down the money. He wanted to run by Dance his own way. So as far as your own business goes, are you running it as a democracy or a dictatorship? I think there's a fine line. Internally, everyone in the company is pretty equal. You can all communicate and express our opinions when the CEO makes a decision. You shouldn't

make other people feel afraid to speak out. That's the bottom line. You need to make sure of that, otherwise you miss out an important information. Ideally, you'll left opportunities to learn, and you can afford to make mistakes along the way, and you can share the opportunities with your team members so they have the agency to make their own decisions. That was he mean on a Chinese talk show in it sounds like he's modeling his business after

an American company rather than a Chinese One. Part of that is because he took money and advice from American and foreign VC firms, many of them in Silicon Valley. By Dance even looks like a futuristic Silicon Valley office. It's built out of a converted airplane hangar, so it's an expanse of space. There are few walls, no real offices, just rows and rows of engineers, staring at computer screens. Ming also tried to subvert China's corporate culture, which tends

to be pretty hierarchical. It's common for employees in China to refer to their managers by their formal titles. So hypothetically, if Facebook were a Chinese company, Mark Zuckerberg might be referred to as teacher Zuckerberg or boss Zuckerberg. But Eming broke with that tradition in the office. He went by classmate Eming, and in fact he had everyone referred to one another as classmates to create a sense of equality in the office. By Dance has a flat company structure.

The atmosphere is that you and your leader just call each other by name, and you don't have to refer to him as so and so teacher or so and so boss. I think that's a good thing, because that's sort of formality is pretty inhibiting. So when we were talking about certain issues, we were really just addressing those issues rather than feeling restricted by the differences in our rank. I think By Dances flat structure helped are brutual. This employee joined by Dance in when she was in her

mid twenties. She asked to remain anonymous into the scene. Kind of economy in the past few years has had its ups and downs and lots of uncertainty, but I felt like Byte Dance was a different world. It only had ups. You have infinite stuff to do and infinite businesses to explore. I was so happy when I first joined. The atmosphere was so energetic and the future felt good. I could learn lots of stuff, and I remember just feeling super pumped every day. This By Dance employee did

product research at the company. She says Huming was different from other Chinese tech founders. Guys like Ali Baba's Jack Maa were loud and pretty self important. In contrast, Aiming was quiet, understated, and what strikes me the most about him is that he's not someone who stands out. He dresses really casually and he just doesn't have a strong presence. He's not like I need three bodyguards and forces stems

to follow me around. He's low key in group settings, and when slunchtime and a bunch of people squeeze into the elevator, he'll just stand there and wait for the next one. He's really good at fading into the background. I've had like four different people tell me that at first glance they misstook himing for a low level engineer. He chew up to work in jeans at tatters Butcher and his wire room glasses. He'd sit in the common space and code on his computer. Sometimes he'd wear a

baseball cap pulled down really low. Here's John. You would not know who the founder of the company was in no way. Um and and I remember I was working with a group and in at some tables, and you know Yaman was over there at his desk the whole time, working by himself. But even though you means strive to create a casual work environment, employees say working at Bye Dance was incredibly draining, intense. It was far more fast

paced and frenzied than at other companies. The employee we interviewed said she burnt out after less than a year. After a while, the excitement I felt disappeared, and I started to feel like a worker on his subly line. Every day. You entered the offices early, and when you leave it's already dark. I didn't even know what time it was because we sat on an open office floor where the lights were always on and there was always

someone still at the office. The only way I could tell the changing of the seasons was by observing the leaves on the trees. When I first started, the trees were green, Then the leaves were turning yellow. Then some more time passed and the tree branches were bare. There's a neighborhood nearby, and if I knocked off early, like around seven or eight at night, I saw little kids running around. I was jealous of them. They looked so free and so relaxed. Leaving the office at eight at

night was considered early to her. Because people described China's work culture as people are working from nine am to nine pm, six days a week. Work hours are definitely insane, There's no question about that. I think. I remember. The funniest things that one said is they're like the hours are actually they actually really respect work like balance here, Like we only worked six days a week, and I was like what, And then then like Saturdays the mandatory

basically and um. And then the second thing they were we only have the stage and I was like, in no universes that the case in the West. This person worked with big name Silicon Valley companies for decades. He spoke to me on the condition of anonymity, but this is his real voice. He served as an advisor to Bite Dance, helping them devise a plan to take on Facebook and YouTube. I man China is here to win,

are they not. I'd say the thing that was different about them versus the other company companies based in China interacted with is this one felt more like a Google Silicon Valley like company than the others. It's one of the reasons. You know, they're able at by Dance to like turn out features so so so quickly. Um and the Chinese are known for copying, but like Bye Dances is a different level of velocity UM. But like like they're like material features that they could turn out within

weeks that would take another company months. Turning out new features in a matter of weeks sounds almost superhuman. But again that goes back to the intense work culture at Byte Dance, which starts at the top. Lu Gen, the senior executive at Byte Dance, work closely with Giming for years. She said he's such a workaholic that he even travels to other countries when there's a holiday in China because

he doesn't want to stop working. You know, sometimes when it's a China holiday that email will say, let's go to the US, because you know he's training here. Every one doesn't work, but in the US we can still work. Lu Jen and I spoke when I visited By Dances Beijing headquarters in January, and I remember sitting in the office cafeteria afterwards and staring at a TV playing this weirdly emotional video of employee testimonies. It was right around

the New Year holiday. By Dance. Employees had taped a video sharing last year's regrets in their New Year's resolutions. What stuck out was this one employee apologizing to her kids for staying at the office so late that she never saw them. I jotted down her exact words, I'm sorry to my kids that I'm never home, she said. Another told her ex boyfriend, I'm sorry I just didn't spare enough time for you while I toiled at the office five away. When we asked By Dance about this,

they gave us a statement. By Dance is a unique and exciting place to build a career. Our growth is a testament to the dedication and commitment of all of our employees. Our culture is similar to most early stage startups, even as employees were working around the clock, there still weren't enough people to keep up with the company's growth, and Emi was aggressive with hiring. He wanted to get the best engineers and executives, often poaching from his competitors.

He first approached Lugen while she was still running strategy for Uber in China. But the thing about Emi is Emi is a very mean as an introvert, you know, he's engineered by trading, you know, not very social and he doesn't like going out and socialized with a lot of people. But when it comes to recording palents, he's

very persistent, aggressive, persistent. I don't know how many times he comes to this little cafe near where I live, near my apartment in baking you know, the east side actually the opposite side of where the company is, where he lives, and he's very persistent, can we meet? And I said, a lot of people would say, hey, you know, hi, take care. You know, I gave you some room. You know that week we connect and email. It was very straightforward.

It is always a commmit. It sounds like lu Gen and Iman had a friendly relationship, or else she probably wouldn't be joking about him. Borderline stalking her. She was speaking on a podcast called The Next Billion with Bye Dance investor Hans Tongue. Around this time, Bye Dance emerged as a different sort of Chinese employer. China has a reputation for low wages and sprawling factories, but Eman was

paying some of the highest salaries in the market. Here's what you mean with my colleague, Peter, what is the top of the market in RUMs of AHAs? What kind of salaries from unem sterily for the unlimited talent? She all loved to hear that unlimited salary for unlimited talent sounds like a platitude, but it's not. Let me underscore how unusual this is. At Bye Dance, there was no ceiling for how much top employees could earn. Sub engineers were making one million dollars a year, and e Mean

was often paying fifty more than his competitors. Throwing money at a problem became something you Mean would do again and again. As his company grew bigger, he saw that paying top dollar to hire employees, acquire other startups, and by advertising could serve as a kind of shortcut to success. That he could turbocharge his growth by just paying for it, and as fast as he was spending money, even more money kept flowing in from venture capital backers, many of

whom were American. You mean, raised almost eight billion dollars in VC money in eighteen by Dancer passed Uber and became the world's most valuable start up. It's even overtaking companies like Starbucks and Goldman sack the buckets of cash from big investors like soft Bank in Sequoia give Byte Dance a mandate and the means to start expanding around the world. Part of the purpose of that raise was for Bye Dance to essentially go global, to go beyond

the borders of China and take their unique technology. Uh and really with their secret sauce, is this AI that can effectively learn a user users preference and serve them content with a precision that you know, I've not seen anyone else really do. That's John Again, who worked at Flipogram, the slideshow app by Dance acquired in He said this would be a big deal. No Chinese consumer app had

ever hit it big in the US. John state on staff at Bye Dance for a couple of years, helping the company buy more American startups and sign music deals with US record labels. He says the first time he walked into Bye Dances Beijing headquarters, he was floored by just how many people were lining up to get in. I think it when I joined it was a few thousand employees, and when I left, it was like thirty

thousand or something. Crazy. But I remember the first day in Beijing at headquarters, I was in the lobby and there was I don't know, like a hundred people. I met up with the woman I worked for there and I said, what's what is that. It's like, oh, those are new hires. And I was like, oh my god, that's crazy. And then when I realized that happened every day. Every day there was this huge, you know, group of

new employees. We'll be right back with billions of dollars from venture capital in hand and an army of employees. By Dance was pushing out dozens of apps at a time to see what sticks they were, sometimes referred to as an app factory, you mean, was trying to find his next big product. He'd been following the success of a lip syncing app called Musically as it hit it big in the US, so he decided to copy it.

It might sound unsavory to some listeners, but China has a reputation for taking technology that's popular in the West and just adapting it to the Chinese market. Ali Baba began as an eBay copycat, and wehe Chat was originally a clone of WhatsApp. By Dance successfully copied musically and created two products. One is called Doying, which was exclusively for the Chinese market. The second was an early version

of TikTok which they released internationally. For simplicity's sake, I'm going to call it TikTok one point Now here's you being on a Chinese talk show. What you want to This company in the US had similar products and services, but if you take a close load, we offer a user experience that's very different. Actually, there's a lot of innovation behind what we made, and that's the main reason

why Doyan and satisfied in needs of Chinese users. To me, what you mean is saying is that it's easy to copy an idea, but it's much harder to execute on it. TikTok one point Oh was successful in a handful of Southeast Asian countries, but crucially, it didn't catch on in the US, so it didn't quite fulfill you means global dreams. You know, being big in Thailand is just not the same as making it in America. So you mean determined it wasn't enough to just copy Musically. He wanted to

buy it. At the time, Musically was shopping itself around. They had met with Facebook and YouTube, but actually Musically got the furthest in acquisition talks with another Chinese tech company, Quai Show, which is backed by ten Cent. For you mean, this was red alert. He was not going to let a Chinese competitor beat him to the US market, so

he pounced. By Dance had deep pockets, and they offered to buy Musically for close to one billion dollars so Musically wouldn't fall into the hands of one of Ming's rivals. A few people told me this was way more than what Musically was worth. Inside By Dance, many people thought this purchase was a mistake because By Dance had already launched their own music video app. They thought the company

could take on the US without Musically. Also, Musically came with a big problem, namely their super young user base. Kids under thirteen years old aren't exactly dependable customers. You can't tell if they'll grow up with the app or ditch it. Here's where I'm a a former tech banker

in China and Silicon Valley. So my understanding of the stories that basically Musically was very popular with a certain demographic, but it failed to catch on with other demographics because its content was too narrow right, So it was really good for discovering and promoting these preteen stars that were but not so good at adding to the BA on the platform, and the preteen users led to a second,

more serious problem. The US government was already investigating whether Musically had violated child privacy laws by collecting so much data on kids under thirteen. The issues with child data scared off potential buyers like Disney and Facebook, but Eming wasn't faced by that. He thought the Musically acquisition would fast track US growth. To him, the US was the crown jewel in a strategy to spread his apps around

the world. Instead of spending time wooing tens of millions of American users, by Dance could just buy them and instantly become a global social media powerhouse. And that's what they did. By Dance bought Musically and the companies held this gigantic party in Hollywood in August. In a surprise move, they announced they were shutting down Musically and folding it completely into TikTok. This would be TikTok version two point oh, the TikTok as we now know it pretty much the

same consa like Musically. That's Musically's founder Alex Ju speaking on stage at the launch party. Alex is introducing byte Dance, TikTok's parent company. One of the party goers shot this video. Is growing super super fast. It's actually most done this year Facebook aube. TikTok had invited hundreds of users who had become famous on Musically to the party. There was a lot of alcohol, dis pumping, flashing lights, and a

lot of selfies. In the weeks leading up to the event, TikTok paid some of them tens of thousands of dollars per video to post on the app, asking their followers to follow them on TikTok instead of YouTube or Instagram. Is your face new go? You couldn't have racial before people I heard. At this point the crowd is going nuts. Many teenagers are holding up their phones to record Alex and screaming at the top of their lungs. Platool think the black. Let's take a look. At midnight, the Musically

logo disappeared from tens of millions of phones. In its place was the TikTok icon, a neon music note on a black background. Many of the Musically users were upset when they woke up the next morning and saw their beloved app replaced. But the purchase of Musically would give by Dance a strong foothold into the American market and

completely rewrite the story. By Dance's success. In the coming years, TikTok would transform into a cultural force that chaps an entire generation of young Americans through music, celebrity, culture, and even politics. But the fact that all of this came from a Chinese company with an ambitious founder operating under an authoritarian government that would make TikTok's future anything but certain. That's next time on Foundering. Foundering is hosted by me

Shelley Banjo. Sean Ween is our executive producer, Jap Huang, Peter Elstrom, David Ramley, and Kurt Wagner contributed reporting to this episode. Raymondo is our audio engineer, Mark Million and Vandermay and Alistair barr are our story editors. Francesco Leviy is a head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Special thanks to everyone who helped us with the English language dubs of Chinese news footage that includes Silvio Courio, Edwin Chen, Brian Christian,

Danielle Culbertson, Kevin Hines, Davy Kim, and Courtney Malone. Here's my colleague japeing Huang, who's going to credit the Chinese shows we excerpted from Hi. This is Joe pin Huangs the reporters on the show. This episode, you have heard audio from sho Ya Kwa and Gonja Mia. Be sure to subscribe and if you like our show, leave a review. Most importantly, tell your friends see you next time.