I'm Jason Kitsepsion, this is Foundation, the official podcast from Apple TV+. We are your guide to the galaxy from Trent toward determinist to an accrian space is huge, space is vast, we aim to make it smaller, make it brighter and add some, hopefully, really interesting context to everything that you see on the show. This week we're joined by a showrunner and executive producer David S. Goyer and co-executive producer and writer Jane Espenson.
We're going to talk about episode three, The Mathematicians Ghost. Welcome David and Jane, how are you? We're great, fantastic. By the way, everybody, spoilers, spoiler spoilers, there were we spoilers for episode three. If you have not watched The Mathematicians Ghost Go do so now, come back to us I promise the podcast will still be here.
We're going to do a short recap on what we just saw on Trent toward 400 years before the events that we've seen previously, we see an aged Clean the first, the original, watching the construction of the star bridge and ruined the fact that he's old and he's not going to get to live to see its completion.
We fast forward to 19 years after the star bridge attack, which we saw at the end of episode one, the genetic dynasty is at the cusp of a new generation, old daddy dusk, he wants to go up to the wreckage of the star bridge and salvage the legacy of Clean the first, brothers dawn and day, after a nice supper they take him up to see it one last time.
And a new dawn is born from its birthing tank and old dusk is disintegrated on terminus the foundation is taking root they of course discovered the mysterious vault which over time has become a part of the landscape to them. Salvo Hardin, who we meet here notices that the null field which protects the vault something like that it is expanding and this is potentially threatening the town and that's not all that is threatening an accrian corvettes are approaching the planet.
Wow, that was quite the summary. I tried to I tried to move through it any, no, but it was it was well told. David Jane, who else is in this writer's room? I got to work primarily with Lee Dana Jackson who is awesome and who I immediately fell in love with him and that was largely who who was on staff at the same time I was but David you had a whole slate of people before I even got there.
A writer look writers are the people that start from nothing right there the people that actually have to sit down and say well how the hell is this actually going to work. And so I like to think of of the writer's room as like a baseball team and you've got different people with different skill sets and and and the secret sauce is sort of trying to pick those people and figure out how they're going to mesh and work together because they do need to work together.
If they don't everything destabilizes and so there I think there's an art to assembling a great writers room. Lee Dana Jackson came in we have another wonderful writer named Liz Pong of Victoria Marrow in the early early days we had this sort of six week brainstorming session.
Solidina Med came in who's a wonderful writer yeah great comic book stuff as well great comic book stuff yeah but also I brought in writers that you know certainly had worked in science fiction before I brought in writers that works in comic books writers that works in short stories writers that were primarily playwrights
because I think it's important to sort of mix it up and and the one thing that I didn't want was five other me's you know I want people argue with me because I wanted the writers room in a weird way to be like a microcosm of the foundation. So we promise we talk about the vault which we saw briefly previously but now is a part of our world it became known as the vault and over the decades countless myths grew up around it.
It was an ancient artifact left by aliens a surveillance outpost sent ahead by the Clions all the settlers knew for certain was that the vault wouldn't allow any of you. It wouldn't allow anyone to approach it and so they kept away. Now I know you can't spoil anything but in the show obviously all anyone seems to know about it is that it has this field around it that causes anyone who gets too close to pass out potentially to their death if they remain in this field.
What was the thinking in the writers room when you when you were talking about the vault and the Nell field that surrounds it. A version of the vault exists in the books it's called the time vault but I was also determined to sort of in the same way that I built maybe gale out as a point of view character. I was really determined to build out the vault and and be a bit more ambitious with it Jane what's your take on.
Well you know I joined the project late enough that a lot of those big decisions had been made so the vault was already hovering there when I walked into the to the project. I've always been intrigued by the fact that they thought to call it a vault that something about it which isn't obvious to me as a viewer but to them something about it suggested vault and I find that suggestive and interesting. Did you talk about at all about like I keep thinking.
I followed this grand genius across the galaxy he has made this unbelievable prediction he can make predictions with incredible accuracy. Why didn't he didn't know about the vault or did he or did he like how did he that's what's interesting right yeah here's the thing. He his plan was to get ex-cell determinus he knew what the conditions on terminus were like. But he didn't just plan that he plan where they would land yeah and he had them land on the doorstep of this thing so.
What's interesting about it and hopefully the audience are asking these questions and certainly the characters in the show are is if he didn't predict that this thing would be there that's really weird but if he did why didn't he tell us about it because that's also really weird. We find our way into this kind of like intergenerational handoff of a mission through Salvor Harden played wonderfully by Leo Harvey.
She her entire life is this reality here on terminus this foundation that is following in the footsteps of this man she never met. What was the decision to the creative decision for the time jump to jump forward into into the midst of of Salvor's like adult life and where she clearly has a lot of responsibility to this community.
I mean this was always going to be one of the thorny issues with adapting the books were these time jumps and I just from the very first meeting even long before Jane came on the scene I said to apple. Buckle in we're gonna we're gonna sometimes we're gonna jump forward 30 years sometimes we're gonna jump back 400 years people the our audience is just gonna have to embrace it. And you know there are two characters in the show that aren't played by actors there's the vault and there's time.
Oh and times a character and I just said and we got to introduce that character episode three and people just got to suck it up and embrace it. Jane anything. I was just struck by you're talking about intergenerational handoff when that's also what's happening in the empire story one of the things I love about the show is the way the stories.
Thematically reflect each other and that's one I hadn't even thought of but you'll find that over and over again when you when you start taking these apart and looking at the mechanism is is how beautifully things speak to each other.
And well also the mural right yeah I mean the the mural is is this sort of depiction of the empires feats you know and one of the ideas is the mural is a teaching tool for dusk to teach dawn you know about the business of empire and about the great feats and and one of dusk signature
signature tasks is is to paint like the current events on the mural one of the other things that's happening the show is that all these different characters are are thinking about their legacies right and they're thinking about this episode is so much about legacy the thing about centuries and millennia and there like how can I affect change beyond my natural life span.
You know what does legacy mean and then what does it mean if you try to buck legacy the other issue between Selvar and her parents in this episode is as you alluded to she's like well I never met the guy here yeah I've just been living on this cold planet for 30 years dealing with bishops clause and other shit I my job is to keep you full safe and in the plan it's just this weird abstract thing that is never going to impact my life.
I'm glad you said that because I think that my initial response to salvo or when when we meet her is she is present in a way that not a lot of other characters are in the sense that they are concerned with their legacies with these memories there's the opening narration from gale talks about ghosts and how every house has them especially the palace of the empire
whereas salvo is like is this is the four-shield working or the bishop clause around is this kid safe for they're walking too close to the Nalfields yeah jean talk who is who is salvo. I love salvo she is pragmatic and grounded like you're talking about and more comfortable with action than words and people but smart.
I'm able to crack a joke without cracking a smile like I like that kind of character and you don't normally see women as that kind of character it is a very classic these are traits that are generally attributed to men when I don't think that men have salt ownership of those I was very happy to get to write salvo.
We were always cognizant of the fact that like Jane says salvo. Exhibit these traits that are often commonly attributed to men we were aware of that but also it was important to me that we also have a character on the show that feels like the layman that just doesn't really think about whether or not all this plan shit. You need characters like that in a weighty show like this who just roll their eyes at all this gobbling book.
Right. Harry or the empire who never are talking about right it's like hey guys like none of this stuff happens if the plumbing doesn't work exactly yes and having a character that's blunt is the best thing for a writer because you can cut through stuff quickly. Yeah someone walks in the room what's going on salvo will tell them in three words. Just a weird feeling. I'm going to walk the perimeter because that's where the weird feeling is going to.
No that isn't here. This is just a walk. So if I said let me get my pants you'd say no pants for the next 25 hours. Again she really feels she you feel the weight of her responsibilities whatever those are she's looking to the defenses she's up in the middle of the night seemingly called to the vault whether it's her own intuition whether it's her the concerns about whether she crossed her teeth and died her eyes.
She is up and active and a loner in a lot of interesting ways definitely a loner and there's also a sadness to her you know and sometimes the glibness sort of hides that sadness because she feels unique and different than the rest of the people on terminus and she doesn't know why. Yeah I was but I was thinking about when you're talking about is is the fact that she's a loner means this connection to Hugo is deeper because she has so few people.
It's a you you you really sense like what a big part of her life Hugo is even though he isn't always there and even though you can sense her soul holding him at arms length. You know she she she wants to banter with him not throw herself into his arms the second she sees him there's a little distance but you know that's all she's just protecting herself because she feels so deeply.
Hugo is Hugo crashed played by Dan Fiercen who you know you understand how people view him because the kids in town can't wait to run up to him when he arrives what I love about Hugo is he's the guy who gets that space and it is an adventure for him what you know spaces a lot of things to a lot of people obviously but to him it's fun is seeing different places different cultures trading this here selling. At market over here.
Yeah he got the travel bug yeah he never lost it how much I was thinking about this is as both of you were talking about Salvador. There is the sadness that he goes not around a lot but it also kind of feels like if he was around a lot maybe it wouldn't work the same way I'm so glad that you you've perceived that because that's what we talked about we talked about.
Like Salvers it's hard for her to get close to people and in a lot of ways we reversed some of their the way Hugo behaves sometimes is the way you know stereotypically a female character will behave he's he's more outwardly romantic than she is and Salvers sometimes you see these male characters you you know don't want to get too attached and they're the ones that get out of that. First and and you know. Grad their gun and and so we talked about that that reversal you know in their relationship.
The first time we see him he's at the stove. Yeah cooking. Yeah as a man and like yeah literally he's like he might as well have an apron you know. Yeah and when she gets up and he's and he's is going to get up with her and he says well you be angry later I thought that is such a couple of lines. It really is a thing about like I'm going to cut through what you're saying right now and anticipate the talk we're going to have later and just make sure that's going to be okay and I love that.
Well it's also it's like she gets up to do her rounds and it's one of those like you know should I get up with you but I'm kind of tired like I really want you to say no don't like don't deal with the dogs or don't take out the trash. It would be fine but are you sure it will be okay. Well there's a lot of. Salvo is a character of action as you noted and we see that when the anacrion ships come into view. Salvo is an outlier. We need to think whether the plan could have possibly predicted.
Selten's gone. When are any of you going to start thinking for yourselves all right that's enough we don't need to make this complicated. She's immediately like where the rifles where is the weaponry are we ready for this yeah Lewis is like what do you know about weaponry we call the empire and and he goes like no those are corvettes you don't get it that that that was a word.
Yeah that was such a great again this this idea of Salvo as present in the moment getting her hands dirty in a way that a lot of these egg heads are just not ready to do.
They're all paralyzed right well would Harry want us to connect the emperor would not want us to come in there would he we should we engage with them to we now engage with him and she's like dudes wake up like who cares he's he's he's dead he's not going to help us yeah like we got to do something and she's blaming herself I should have checked up on the warden I love how much being a warden is her soul.
To me a lot of this a lot of the theme of this episode again is memory this idea of ghosts as memories that you can't shake I love the different perspectives on what memory and legacy means from the different characters there's this great scene on term and where the foundation is discussing. What equipment to use for future foundation folks foundation teams as they go out across the galaxy what should they take with them what should the protocols be let's play that clip.
In terms of time keeping the water clock is the more precise instrument right but it also requires water to work doesn't it well obviously what happens when the water runs out and off his job for a sundial all you need is the no more that's the blade sticking out of it and of course the sun.
Harry Selden entrusted us with rebuilding civilization after the collapse we can't just do you anything whether or not our future survivors will be able to read or what language they'll speak we don't even know what world they'll be scattered upon I love the scene because it really makes you think about what's worth saving and what's worth carrying forward I if you hadn't brought up that scene I was going to bring up that scene and even
earlier when we were talking about how we hack life to try to stay present in the future I just got by what you metologize and what you bring with you and what you carry and I love that that's the whole point of foundation is is this notion of we're going to take stuff now and bring it into the future.
Terminus is in the books it is described as a place that lacks resources they're constantly insured of everything and it is that's what I pictured in my head is this place that you know where you shot it but it's in Iceland and in Forteventura in the Canary Islands it is in hospitable it looks it looks cold and then it looks hot it was and then it looks like it was
deeply unpleasant it looks lousy with bishops clause to boot yeah what was was it like to film these these scenes so I was when we started talking about this show I worked a lot with Chris Nolan and he's a big proponent of kind of doing things as much as possible in camera or for real and and that's definitely my filmmaking style as well and there are there are some other big science fiction shows right now that all you know a lot of them
are going to eventually get shot on a sound stage or against green screen and I'm not taking anything away from those because I'm a fan of many of those shows but I I really said I want to do is much of this for real and so with a lot of grumbling because it's complicated to show in multiple countries they were like okay fine you can shoot in two countries and there was like secretly I'm going to make sure we shoot three
and I was like then okay fine you can shoot in three no it's four no it's five eventually we shot in six different countries for season one immensely complicated even without COVID and I wanted different countries and different landscapes to be kind of stand in for these different worlds and I wanted the actors as much as possible and even the filmmakers myself included to sort of a little bit be experiencing those hardships because so that we weren't
faking it yeah so we started off in Iceland for terminus and we were foolish enough to shoot it like in late November in Iceland which was there 80 mile an hour wins and it was the coldest I've ever been in my life and it looked amazing but I was we were wearing through five layers
of clothes and one of them was heated and I'm not kidding and two days were shut down for wind and one of our sets blew away and another day I'm not kidding was shut down because we found an unexploded ordinance from World War two in terminus city and the bomb squad had to come out and blow it up and and so you know we got some incredible footage in Iceland and I loved Iceland but one and a half out of every five days we shot there wasn't
usable because they're like the winds were too crazy or this or that so we were like okay how can we find a place like Iceland that isn't quite so crazy and so Iceland is volcanic and we started looking at well what are other volcanic environments in the Canary Islands which were part of Spain on the other side of the world are also volcanic so they've got similar terrain and they've got these lava fields in this liken and stuff like
that and we were like oh great and it's not super cold there so we ended up going to Fort of Intra in the Canary Islands and Fort of Intra because I'm an idiot actually means strong wind and stuff and so it wasn't cold but but the winds were blowing and then you would get this insane dust storm
that would come over from Africa we're like literally you couldn't see the sun and it would be so windy that like equipment would fall down or people would tumble and and so it looks amazing because it was
amazing and every day you would come back from filming it like my wife would see me and I would be covered in this red dust and it would be in my nose and in my throat and and there were so many scenes that we had to loop because because of the wind and so I mean it was amazing but man was it hard I only visited one of the locations I was working on the Nevers in London and so it was very easy for me to come on
I visited Berlin like the Cosmopolitan Berlin. Yes that should be that should be fun and easy but I was picked up at the airport and told okay we're going to take you right to set we're just going to stop at the hotel drop off your stuff and then we're going to take you right to the Crematorium. So that was my my visit to set was arriving in Germany and being driven to a Crematorium. Crematorium was where we filmed the trial which was that at incredible location with all the white pillars.
Yeah it was gorgeous it was the best Crematorium I've ever been. One of the things I've been not been able to stop thinking about since David you said it is that time is a character in this. Jane what does that mean to you to time being a character in this story? There are lots of things you can say that would be spoilers but go on.
Yes. I guess with those things a thing like time where you can you can say character you could say theme I think it amounts to the same thing where it's just a thing you keep in your mind as you're writing because as a character it can't speak up for itself. So you have to keep it in mind that this is present when it's present.
And just as you're just as you're picking words I mean I write at a very granular level I'm very interested in the number of syllables the rhythm of the line the choice between synonyms. Am I avoiding rhyme and repetition or am I leaning into it? I love all that stuff and if you just have time in your head then it's just going to affect how you lay those words down which ones you pick which metaphor are you going to be using if you can use a metaphor of distance or a metaphor.
So you're a metaphor of distance or a metaphor of time reach for the timeline. Jane is writes the most beautiful dialogue of like any writer I've ever met. Oh, gee, thank you. I'm like the idea guy. She's like the one that makes it sound poetic. Let's move to to Trantor to the center of the galaxy, Galactic Core. I'm aware a lot of the stuff about legacy and memory and death is right there front and center.
We see a dusk played by Terrence Mann, wonderful Terrence Mann, long time Broadway actor at the end of end of his life and grappling with all that that means it must be I can't even describe the feeling that one must have to know that you are not even that special. Because you're there's two other of you right there and then I forth in the tank get rid of pop. Yeah, yeah. You can't be here. You know that I can't be the first one I wanted to see my youngest self which is why we made the room.
I've never heard that song before or have I no one to the empire loves you so. I find I cannot quite look on that child as an innocent even if seldom was right. There is something unnatural in that. You must go. We call it the short film at the beginning of this episode that like 17 minutes of it's kind of like the life cycle of the butterfly. And I really wanted to kind of interrogate the sadness of of these clones.
This was a big lift for the beginning of this episode because like we're just going to break format and then for like 17 minutes tell this tone poem about this dying emperor. And I said but I want to show the audience that we can do things like this on this show and then we can get really deep. And I just said our job I remember when we were talking about this story is our job is to make you feel bad for the emperors and make them cry.
And then the trick of the short film is you think the short films about dusk but it's not it's about Demerzel. And the real sadness is is that's when we start to peel back the layers of Demerzel is okay she's robot but she's also doomed again and again and again to birth these babies. Watch them grow up guide them through lives and watch them die again again and again and again and again and that's really sad.
She has that line after she she picks up dusk who is collapsed in the way after painting a special mural and showing fantastic core and upper body strength to boot by the way. She's a robot she can lift like a ton but she lays them in bed and says something to the effect of them paraphrasing because you always leave me.
Yeah. It struck me watching this scene how it's it's a it's a subtle trick that she has to play on the one hand she's got this unbelievably intimate connection relationship with these three emperors.
On the other hand she has had that same relationship with multiple other emperors and and they all seem at a certain they reach a certain part of their life where they are consumed with being special to her yes and to stand out amongst the emperors well yeah because she was around with clean on the first the guy started this whole thing it's sort of like I guess the analogy I can.
I can come up with it you know I've been through therapy right and so the therapist job is to like lean in and listen to you and and you want to believe that amongst all the other patients that they speak to right you're the special patient right you're the one that move them or you're the special student like you know amongst all the hundreds of students that cycle through right and so that sort of what they want to do is like I know
I know that you were around when he was there but what did I move you did I move you and then they're just so desperate in their dying moments to want to feel like but please tell me that even though I'm the 13th one or on the 11th one that's something I did made you will make you remember me and in a way that was even more fondly and she says of course and then you're like well probably not.
The other thing that we introduced in episode two and that we see you know again in episode three is this thing called the principium clean on the first his body is still there in this sarcophagus you know and so they can go up anytime they want or not most of them avoid it and look at the preserved body of the guy from whom they were all extracted and from whom they will never you know their tragedy is they probably will never do.
And even greater than he did right he presided over the empire at its apex and there just this Xerox of a Xerox of a Xerox of a Xerox that's sort of riding it down into ruin right he's the just the Justinian they are the ones that come after.
Jane yeah this this short film at the top of this like the last thing I would do is go watch like another festivals of short films like I don't want a short story I want to I want to follow me and yet this thing drew me in and and I just love it I love every minute of it I love that it makes me cry I love that we don't cut away from it and yeah it's got all that in it it's got loads and layers of meaning.
Fantastic performance and it leaves me with an affection for empire that makes every scene thereafter when empires being sometimes terrible I still have this affection particularly for dusk that I attribute wisdom to him because I've seen I've seen these lives I feel like I've been inside it.
Demar's all again is so is like the I I the weight that she carries and the emotional baggage that she carries having to deal with these men Jane it like she alive what is she's obviously very advanced but like how do you think about her you're so it is so interesting because you're so delving into conversations that like Jane and I are having like literally yesterday that it's totally so.
It's totally spoilery that we can't go for it I can talk about her general nature which is that I think the question of life is absolutely relevant to her what what does that mean whether we have something has if if if Demar's L has emotions and and a soul then what does it matter if she's alive and I think we can say that she she has those or something. Or something as indistinguishable from them that it doesn't make a difference I think Demar's a live in this is all interpretive but.
She's not biological life right so I think she has a soul and I think she has hopes and she has dreams and she has as much freedom or not as humans do because we're also a product of our kind of biological programming yes. Why did they choose her why did Clean the first choose her to to number one to preserve her as the last.
We are going to answer that story but not yet we know what that answer is and it's really interesting but I mean the thing about that I'm hoping people take away from the show is there are lots of questions raised right and lots of interesting avenues we can explain.
We can explore and if we haven't answered a question there's a reason why we haven't and the primary reason is because we think it will be more dramatic to reveal it later this episode ends with the shocking arrival of the anacrions on terminus.
You can't spoil anything but what should we expect that their attitude is surely they do not come in peace right well to remind people these were one of the two worlds that Clean that's right bomb into submission in episode two so he he destroyed half of their planet and their neighbors to terminus.
And by imperial charter terminus and the foundation are an extension of empire there also they were banished from the empire in episode two and they're not allowed to be so they were cut off they were embargoed like North Korea you know whatever and they're not allowed to be on terminus so they're showing up on terminus is in itself an act of war and obviously nothing good can come out of it.
And so so you know all the various people in the foundation are just kind of fretting about what level of bad is this and in some which is saying it's whatever level of bad you think it is it's like a layer beyond that. And so that's a fantastic episode. Okay another game of building the foundation light speed round questions. Jane David are you ready definitely not.
I'm going to go the best looking 70 or whatever something you're a guy I've ever seen what is happening here dude because he's been years in cry also I love that he drops the fact that he's 70 years old and he's just a hunk a hunk.
Wouldn't you I would be like can we set the cryo sleep up cure I will just go to bed in it every night exactly and then and then at least add another third of my life I know so you mentioned an actrian terminus and Thespis all being in the same kind of region and also that Hugo it's revealed in the episode is from the despise which are mortal enemies of the anacrans he's got the eyes of a thespon which one is lila color dyes which one is closer which one is closer to
terminus oh dude I don't even know. I'm not sure I don't you we ever figured it out I will say they share the same son next we see old daddy dusk walk into a light is he getting vaporized is the salazar what can you tell us about this and then
in my mind I immediately thought of ash wednesday in the cat edition in the world of foundation is this where the spreading of the ash on the new as well that or from or from you know the practice in India I mean they're not the only ones that came up with that concept but yes that was the thought was that you be turned ash probably by a particle be we never really said and there's probably a moment of pain but it lasts only a second
Demers all's hand on dusk's back as she's ushering him towards his fate is is the heartbreaking to eat that is sad as he turns back one last time to say well that's just it because she's being gentle but he's kind of turning back and she's saying no dude you got to walk into the light man I mean I always think what would happen if he tried to run I think
Demers all would have grabbed him and you know she can live probably a ton yeah and tossed him into that fire and asked him and I think he does it every time exactly she knows to put her hand exactly she knows to do it she anticipates it and then finally of course what's in the vault treasure obviously it's a pocket universe that's created by the time
Trapper I mean I thought that was completely self evident how did I know how do I miss that David and Jane thank you so much for joining thank you respect and enjoy the peace Thanks for listening to foundation the official podcast be sure to follow on Apple podcast to get the next episode in your feed and watch foundation on Apple TV plus
where available this is an Apple TV plus podcast produced by pineapple street studios are executive producers at pineapple are max linsky Jenna Weiss Berman and Barry Finkel our senior managing producer is Gabrielle Lewis our producers are on mode Ali Akbar and Jonathan Shiflett Darby Maloney is our senior editor our composer is Carly Bond I'm Jason Kitsupseon thanks for listening see you next time