Welcome to the For Love and Money podcast, the show where business and social purpose meet to inspire a movement for positive change. Here's your host, Carolyn Butler-Madden. Today's guest is the CEO of Surface for Climate, Josh Kirkman. Now, Surface for Climate is an Australian charity dedicated to turning the tide on climate change.
Since it was founded in 2019. It has inspired the collective power of surfers through initiatives like the successful Fight for the Bike campaign in South Australia, and more recently, the Draw a Line in the Sand campaign. And that is the campaign that successfully contributed to the New South Wales Parliament unanimously passing amendments to legislation banning all offshore oil and gas and New South Wales waters for good, and that legislation came in in March of this year, 2024.
Surfers for Climate continues to grow with thousands of people from the surfing community across Australia coming together to take off on the party wave of climate action and become part of the solution to the climate crisis. Josh became CEO of the organisation in 2021.
He has a history in climate communications in the Nordic cleantech investment space, as well as a sporting history and competitive bodyboarding, earning multiple Australian championship titles, as well as being a highly ranked competitor on the global stage. He is passionate about effecting change in the diverse and growing surf community, and he's focused on leading this community towards greater political agency for people and planet.
Now, I know you're going to love this episode, from learning about Josh's personal journey to understanding the many different and inclusive ways that Surfers for Climate are educating and supporting the surfing community to take meaningful climate action, and also representing the community to advocate for changes like that recent New South Wales legislation. As Josh says, the reality is surfers could decide every election. Let's get into it. Josh, welcome to the For Love and Money podcast.
Pleasure to be here on a sunny day in Byron Bay. Very happy to join you. I can see outside your window, it looks absolutely glorious. And I'm so excited to have you on the show and to explore what you're doing with Surfers for Climate and drive awareness for it because. You've got some amazing ambitions and the kind of work you're doing is just, yeah, innovative, different, ambitious. I love it.
So, first question for you, Josh, when you think about business, is there a role for love to play in it? Oh, is there a role for love to play in business? I think the short answer is yes. How that translates into kind of actionable outcomes, comes, you know, it's an easy thing to say, what does it actually mean to do it? I think ultimately in the non-profit space, which is where I work now, there is a lot of love in what you do.
Like there's a lot of that driving, whether it's your passion for an issue or wanting to see something change for the better. In business, I don't think it's too different, although we do let the profit motivator get in the way of a lot of good things, I think, in business.
But there's been a beautiful shift, obviously, in the last decade, probably where it's gradually shifting so that there are some of these bigger emotional ideas driving what people do in their work and whether that be why they do it and how they show up for it or how that business actually sells its product and why is it selling it and what's it trying to achieve by selling that thing. The B Corp movement in Australia is really great. That's really picking up.
There's a lot of love in B Corp, I think, and a lot of passion driving some of those businesses. There's also, I guess, a lot of good work being done through initiatives like 1% for the Planet, which kind of enables businesses to donate to orgs like Surface for Climate and others who are doing all that grassroots work to change the world for the better. So, I think there certainly is a space for love in business and it's just about
how that translates into action, which really matters. It's very easy to say. Maybe harder to do. Yeah. Action over words. But also I think, you know, you talk about B Corp and what I love about B Corp is it's not easy to become certified. I'm coming up, we're coming up for recertification.
I'm like, ah, but, uh, but it's not easy to be certified, but even for, for those of us who are really conscious about using levers within our, our business and organisations to create impact and to minimise negative impact and to amplify positive impact, it is such a wake-up call to just how many levers there are, right? Like more than you would imagine. And I think that's huge. But, yeah, it comes down to action and it's more than just business making a profit and giving back.
It's using all their levers. and influence. Yeah, it makes me wonder how devoid of any joy previous business formats would have been, you know, like to not even have that purpose driving what you do. But I know a lot of people that are in work that doesn't have a purpose, for lack of a better word.
And yeah, I kind of feel sorry for those people that are working in those jobs where there isn't that purpose driver because, geez, it must be hard getting up in the morning and going to work if you don't have a purpose driving it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the opportunity is there for everyone to take it if they want to in small ways or big ways.
But thank you for that. So, Josh, can you give our listeners a little bit of background into you, Josh Kirkman, and how you came to be doing what you're doing today with Surfers for Climate? Yeah, well, it is a long story, but the more condensed version is that I have... Always been connected to the ocean in one way or the other in my life.
Like I, as a five-year-old, I've got memories of, you know, riding my first waves on a boogie board and trying to spin around on my belly and make it to the shore. And it was something that I got quite addicted to as a kid. And it was something that gave me that outlet to burn off all the energy of a young boy, you know, growing up. And I had a competitive edge as well with that as well.
I'm quite a competitive kid in the ocean, whether that be in nippers, paddling boards, trying to win races, then translating that into the bodyboarding world, which had a massive boom in the kind of the mid to late 90s, which I kind of rode and, you know, had a lot of success as a young kid in the competitive landscape there, winning Australian titles and then competing in the world tour.
Yeah, so I had this background in competitive bodyboarding and, you know, ended up, I think my best result was to be number three in the world for a little while. And then- Oh, wow. Amazing. Yeah. It's a long time ago now, but yeah, that was kind of there with me the whole time. But I do remember very clearly that like, and I was okay at school. I wasn't like an exceptional student.
I wasn't one of the kids studying and like really focused on what they were going to do at uni and what their career was going to be. I was just very focused on winning competitions and trying to, you know, enjoy that and create a profession out of that. But in my early 20s, I started to really feel, you know, bodyboarding as a sport wasn't going to deliver the financial security that I needed as an adult. And it never really has for the majority of people who've participated in that
as a sport. It's been this more passion project, which is beautiful, but not a job. I was in my early 20s and I was having that kind of feeling in my gut that like I needed to start thinking about how am I going to actually, you know, survive in the world financially. And then at the same time as well, there was this big shift of production of the boards from kind of smaller Australian shapers making your board locally, and then you having that relationship with the shaper.
And then it all just vanished over to Asia for kind of high volume manufacturing. And I remember at the same time, I'd just gone through the open foundation course at Newcastle University to get into uni. I didn't finish year 12. So, I had to go through another pathway to get to uni. And I knew that I wanted to go there and learn.
And I remember I was studying, I was just gravitating towards the sustainability subjects and urban geography and, you know, global development stuff was where I was like my head was going. And I just remember when these boards moved offshore, I was riding, you know, I had a pro model which people could buy with my name on it and all this kind of stuff. And I just remember feeling really uncomfortable about like, who's making the board now? Like, what's the conditions like in that factory?
Is it a kid? Is it like a- Is there a 13-year-old making my board and getting paid nothing for it? Like, there was no transparency back then. This is like in the early 2000s when when a lot of that manufacturing shifted and there was just no visibility on what was going on. And it was very purely profit motivated, which, you know, it's a business, but also there was just something not sitting right for me.
So, that was that first environmental slash social kind of driver for my journey towards where I am today. My 20s were filled with trying to finish uni because I was always getting distracted by going on surf trips all over the world still. Yeah. But then into my 30s, I kind of did then start to knuckle down and focus. And I started a master's degree in Sweden. I was living there at the time in environmental management and policy.
That master's degree, I didn't finish that one, but it got me into a job with a clean tech investment fund in the Nordics who were investing in startups that were saving natural resources one way or the other. So there was this really cool portfolio of companies that I got to work with as a communications director.
Working in the Nordics, being able to speak English quite well and write it and then kind of sell in that language was critical for a company that was launching in a foreign language like Finnish or Swedish or Norwegian.
So, I was kind of put in contact with all these amazing founders and CEOs of these companies that were like saving food waste or they might have been doing some kind of solar efficiency or building efficiency big data stuff another cool one that was reducing inefficiency and compressed air systems in china that like back back to manufacturing like you know there's there was this huge issue of air air compressors basically make almost everything we use the
big robots you see in the in the films of of manufacturing that's all air running through those systems and moving the robotic arms and because production scaled up so quickly in china to meet you know the demand of the rest of the world it was an incredibly inefficient system of air moving through these you know these hoses and pipes and stuff so solving that problem of of making those air air compressors more efficient was was you know it still does have the potential to reduce CO2 emissions
in Chinese and Asian manufacturing, like, dramatically, particularly when a lot of the energy system still relies on coal. Yeah, wow. So fascinating work, you know, like I got to, you know, be around a lot of great people. And at that time of living in Sweden, I also kept my connection to surfing quite strong. So I started...
Podcasting with a surfing magazine in the nordics and then that brought me in the orbit of patagonia in europe and around 2016 2017 there was a big kickoff of surfer resistance to an oil and gas project in south australia and the great australian bike called the fight for the bite was the name of the campaign and everybody remembers that one now so i whilst this was kicking off in Australia, which was against a Norwegian oil company called Equinor, the state-owned oil company.
I was in Sweden kind of working in clean tech, but also then doing a bit of surf journalism and getting into this orbit of Patagonia and everything they were doing. So, I got the call up to get involved in some activism in Norway with Heath Joski, who was the kind of the main face of the campaign in many ways in Australia. He was South Australian-based, fantastic surfer, a great communicator regenerating a landscape down in the Great Australian Bight in Streaky Bay.
And he was getting flown over to go and speak at the Equinor AGM in Stavanger.
And I jumped on and did a bunch of work with them for about two weeks in Norway on the Fight for the Bight campaign, like interviewing people, doing some storytelling through the magazine, trying to build a movement of opposition to Norway's oil and gas activities in Australia in the Nordics, which was a little bit offensive in many ways like the norwegians have a really interesting problem slash solution opportunity is that their whole economy relies
on oil and gas exploration and extraction and and you know selling it and they've got a lot of great ways to subsidize the energy transition internally i believe there's teslas there's more teslas sold in norway than anywhere else on the planet. Their energy system internally is one of the greenest on the planet,
but it's funded by oil. Wow. So, it's super interesting, a big contradiction that the Norwegians are grappling with because I do believe the Sovereign Wealth Fund, which manages all the oil money, that provides about 25% of annual budgets for the country. So, they can start the year with 25% already kind of like, oh, there it is, that's from oil and gas. And now we can do all the other cool stuff for our people. Wow, that's a massive challenge.
It's a big challenge, yeah, because you don't want to, who would want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? Like nobody wants to do that. And Australia, you know, this is, you know, I don't want to digress too much, but this is why I'm not so keen on taxing oil and gas in Australia.
Just without a plan to phase it out. I know there's a lot of push to tax it more and get our fair share like Norway, but if you create a national treasure out of a fossil fuel, you may have a very difficult job of getting off that fossil fuel when your budgets are so reliant on them. So, I don't want to digress too far there, but I got involved there in that work.
And then Belinda Baggs, who was meanwhile in Australia, I did meet her once in Europe on a Patagonia trip that I got invited to, but she was starting Surfers for Climate. She was working on the Fight for the Bite in Australia. She then, her and the other co-founder, Johnny Abegg, they went to a retreat by the Climate Council up on Heron Island, which kind of introduced them to climate change.
The Fight for the Bite was much more about oil spill risk than it was about climate change, you know, fueling climate change. It was about surfers were getting activated so well because they were worried about what was going to happen to their beach with an oil spill modelling that showed every beach in Australia covered in oil if there was a ruptured pipeline. And, you know, at the same time, the issue, the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, all kind of happened within the same period.
So there was this very tangible example about what goes wrong when an oil platform explodes. So everyone was sensitive to it, and that's why I think it was so effective with surfers rising up to protect their local beach. Yeah. That doesn't mean they're worried about climate change. It just means they're worried about the beach from oil spill risk.
And so the big question for Belinda and Johnny when they started Surface for Climate was to answer, how do we translate that resistance to oil and gas and that fear of oil spill risk into action on climate? Because ultimately, exploring for more oil and gas and burning it as a fossil fuel for energy is only fueling the issue. So that's why Surface for Climate was formed. It was then launched into the best period ever to start something called COVID.
Oh, God. So many, so many organisations that are doing good seemed to launch at that time. Yeah, well, there seems to be that, right? Because you had to innovate and figure out how to get started in a really constrained operating environment. So I was given the opportunity to, the job popped up to be the first recruit as operations and development manager for Surfers for Climate, I'd returned to Australia just before COVID.
I kind of had a bit of an unravelling of life in Sweden and then got into Oz with, like, no job, nothing to do other than rebuild, and then COVID happened. So it was a pretty dark... It was a bit of a hole for me into COVID, not like I wasn't one of those people that...
You know how those people, actually, my partner Paloma is one of those people who actually used COVID as this really great space to do all of this work on their business and on themselves and do all of the work because they had the space. For me, it was like a big drift in a big black hole. But the one thing, you know, the one really shining moment that came out was the opportunity with Surfers for Climate, which saw me get back into my space of what is my work and purpose.
And I was working in a cafe for a mate, you know, back in hospitality after 10, 15 years of not being in it because it was the only job going in town.
You know like it's i i got on job sites with another mate i'm i'm relatively handy i'm not that handy though so you know i was i was given a few opportunities to keep busy during covid but the surface for climate opportunity came along and i grabbed it and then that was in the middle of 2021 and now we're in you know near the middle of 2024 it's been a it's been a really fantastic journey and that's how i got into it was was really in the depths of covid and got
this little like this hand reaching into the abyss and pulling me out of it a little bit in that hand you know that was that was belinda bags and and holly rankin who was on the board as well they kind of said hey do you want this and i'm like poof jesus like i didn't even know if i could do this job like i i was in that space of just like what am i doing and how do i get out of it yeah i find this so fascinating when when people share their backgrounds when you reflect now.
On your journey, can you see how so many of your experiences have brought you to this point so that you are in a position to add the kind of value you're contributing? Yeah, I mean, there's just a lot of barriers of imposter syndrome and self-belief that you have to push through to keep going and get to where the success sits. And I think that's just been the journey for me, you know, like you get given an org like this and you go, wow, this is like, this is a big deal.
And like, am I really the guy to do this? And then, you know, you start to test ideas out, you start throwing mud at the wall.
And that's kind of been my MO for the first couple of years in this job was literally just to throw ideas at the wall and see what was sticking and what was working because it was my job to figure out how to build a movement of surfers who would actually care enough to do something meaningful about climate change and that's not an easy task, like given that, you know, the majority of Australians and surfers being a part of that group don't really understand what's going on with climate.
It's been heavily politicised in Australia. Me coming from the Nordics, I was living in a parallel universe where there was no climate war. There was no big debate about whether it was real or not. There was only a focus on the solutions and how do we actually make a difference on this? And it was very moral. I felt like in Sweden, it was a more moral proposition. It was like, oh no, we must do something about this.
This is important. And that's why so many businesses were coming out of the Nordics because they took it seriously and then they could see the opportunity of doing something about it that was commercially driven. But yeah, like I think a lot of the time, you know, it was just pushing through these invisible barriers of doubt towards successes and, you know, small wins that then compound.
And then to the point of just building that confidence in the political engagement piece, which is, you know, that's the scary bit of this job in the beginning is, you know, you rock up to the parliament for the first time. And I remember, you know, it's kind of a funny anecdote.
I'd been asked to go and help, you know, to do some work in solidarity with Our Islands, Our Home, the org that's doing a lot of great work in the Torres Strait around seawalls and the underfunding of that infrastructure because they're experiencing firsthand the impacts of sea level rise and they haven't contributed to it. They're not the people that actually burnt the fossil fuels to cause it in the
first place. So, they are, you know, the victims of climate change in this moment today, not in the future. So, they asked us, I was asked if I could help out and I thought, okay, I'll come to Canberra, like it's about time I should go to Canberra and do something, meet some politicians, you know, get the ball rolling. And I, they were doing this sandbagging in front of the parliament as like an
activation. and I remember kind of speaking to the organiser like, are you putting real sand in those bags or have you thought about maybe putting something a bit lighter on?
Bark or something that's like not as full on because they're like 20 kilo bags and like oh yeah we should look into that i'm like cool then i get there the next morning full of sand and i'm i'm on the i'm locked in to be helping build this seawall this you know this wall with 20 kilo bags of sand at 8 a.m in canberra on one of those warm days in canberra which is so weird you want it to be cold yeah so i'm just sweating like a pig like lifting like doing i don't know how many bags of
sand i moved in the morning and then did the big photo op and did the big you know stuff and then i had to get in and get ready for meetings in canberra with politicians for the first time.
And i was sweaty i was gross i wasn't ready you know so i i park at the underground car park and and i'm like shit i'm gonna get changed i don't even know where to get like there's no change rooms here like and so i just like you know surfers at the beach we typically get in and and out of our clothes next to the car so the here i am underground in in canberra first time in the capital about to have the you know the meetings that matter and i'm
in my undies in the car park underneath parliament getting into my suit i'm sure there's like cctv footage of me like half nude getting dressed in putting on a suit and tie and then um but i just remember walking up the stairs there and like looking at the building and kind of just taking this breath and going like, shit, this is like, this is where the action happens. Like, this is it. I'm like, oh, God, am I meant to be here? Like, am I?
And I just kind of like took this breath in and out and I was like, yeah, you belong in here. Now just walk in like you own it. And I just walked in like I owned it. And it was terrifying but incredibly like empowering to do that, to walk in like I owned it. So that was just one of those other invisible barriers that kind of come up along the way, which I just keep pushing through them. That's amazing. And thank you for sharing that story because I think,
you know, it's such a common thing, imposter syndrome. And who am I to do this? You know, but someone recently said at a conference I attended, actually, do you know who it was? I think it was Sam Mostyn, our future governor general at the Australian Forbes Women's Conference. and she said, if someone opens a door, walk through it. I think it was her, but whoever it was, if someone believes in you, they see something in you, then, you know, just walk through it.
If it's a door that is important to you, do it, do it, and you figure it out later. And life's full of those doors and, you know, and I've just always walked through them. I've always said yes to whatever's happening, maybe a bit of FOMO, like I just don't want to miss out on whatever's on the other side of the door, but I feel like that's the journey for me.
But it's also like something that as the organisations are maturing and as I need to mature in a leadership position with the organisation, there are more discerning things. Like once you feel comfortable walking through doors, then you get to choose which ones to walk through or not. You know, like there is like a shift, I think, in your mindset about like, do I have to grab onto every single thing that looks like like, an opportunity?
And the answer now is no. Like, I think for Surfers for Climate. We've- and I'm sure we can get to this in the chat, but, you know, like, we have achieved a result as a group, which is great. I've been able to help contribute to a movement and get a legislative outcome, which means something significant for the ocean. And now we're in this position where I don't feel like I have to run through every door to chase opportunity.
It's It's actually more about taking a couple of breaths and going, okay, we're now entering into this higher level space and we can be more discerning and, you know, I hate using the word strategic because it implies that what you were doing before wasn't strategic. But, like, it is about just being more discerning about opportunity and making sure you've got the resources in place to execute effectively moving forward, yeah.
Wise advice, wise advice. So... Tell us about Surfers for Climate, if you can start with, you know, why you exist, your mission, and tell us, you talked about that legislation, so that's huge, a huge result. So I'd love you to kind of take us there as well. Yeah, sure. The vision of Surfers for Climate is to have an ocean, seeing surfers riding waves in a thriving ocean for generations to come.
That's the vision. and the mission is to build a movement that can help get us there because it's not a guarantee. As it stands, we've just had, I think it's the fifth coral bleaching experience marine heatwave on the Great Barrier Reef in eight years. We've got increasing amounts of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere, which is only contributing to the problem.
We've got a government on the federal level that's doing well on a number of fronts but still unfortunately approving all of this this fuel for the fire. And surfers for climate is here recognizing that you know near enough to 80 percent of people live within 50 kilometers of the coastline there's about there's a few estimations of this but there's 2.5 million surfers in australia meaning people who go to the beach maybe once a week and have a surf there so we've got a coastal
population predominantly we've got a lot of people out there They're enjoying it. And then... So... What is the utility of that group, if you could fully realise it? The reality is that surfers could decide every election moving forward. Like, that's what we're talking about. And what we need to do is help them get on board what we call the party wave of climate action. So, there's this idea in surfing, typically surfing, it does have this problem. It's an incredibly selfish pursuit.
Usually, there's a lot of competition in the water. I'm as guilty as the next person for being competitive in the water.
But there's this beautiful idea in surfing of like a party wave which is a couple of people at least riding a wave together and that's how we've framed the work we do at Surfers for Climate is that climate action is a party wave there's lots of places you can take off on that wave depending on who you are what you're into what your level of understanding of the issue is what your background is there's so many different ways of engaging in climate action it's not a one-size-fits-all all thing so
we've got this idea of a party wave everybody's welcome on it and we want as many surfers as possible to be on that wave with us so that we can realize the full potential of this group of people in australia for positive outcomes for the ocean which in turn is a positive outcome on climate action because climate's the big thing like it's the biggest of all plastic pollutions terrible you know sewerage events which happen still like i live in sydney now
i'm not typically Typically that's new to me, just experiencing that there's like alarm bells that go off when there's a rain event and the sewage levels are too high somewhere. It's like I struggle to process that as a real thing because it's not where I come from in Foster Tunkhari. So surfers can be this force for good. And what we've done at Surfers for Climate is try to build out these individual programs and give surfers opportunities to take off in a way that's easy.
Typically we try and focus in on surfers. People who are not part of the choir when it comes to the environment movement. Like, we're not targeting the people who already think climate change is an incredibly important issue and they're alarmed about it. There's a great body of work called the Climate Compass, which kind of identifies that there's these different kind of points on the compass where different people fit within Australia.
And there's this group called the Cautious and Concerned, as well as the Disengaged. I'd say that we're targeting that group who are what you'd call the middle of Australia. They know there's an issue. They know that it's serious, but they don't really know how to get into it and act on it. And they're worried about how disruptive that will be to their own way of life, which they cherish today.
These are the same people in this context as well, who are struggling with cost of living pressure due to inflation.
Environmental concern drops down the level of things you need to worry about when you're mostly worried about getting your kid fanned and dressed for school which is totally understandable paying your mortgage these are all things that obviously outrank climate action for most people so what we try and do though is connect the dots between those those issues and the and the broader issue of climate change so we do pub trivia nights as one way to
engage people because the pub is this really neutral space probably more conservative space in most examples we we kind of give an education package through trivia, which enables people to learn about climate change in a way that's non-confrontational. So we've delivered about, I don't know, we're coming up to probably. 60 or 70 of those around Australia in the last couple of years, trivia nights. We do these events called Car Park Cinema, where we kind of bring people together.
We screen films, we have panel discussions, and we kind of create these networking opportunities around film. We've also produced a couple of films ourselves, and we've got a third one that's nearly finishing. So, we do original storytelling, we connect the dots between surfing and climate action.
And we've even won a few awards. Our first go, Great Ocean Love, was an all-female male surf trip which had like a diversity of wave riding approaches because that's another important thing about us like we're not the definition of surfing in australia has for the majority of time been a a white guy riding a board with three fins in it and kind of being high performance and you know the mick fannings of the world like amazing surfers
but not representing everyone who surfs at all but brilliant surfers we really want to recognize the diversity within surfing. So, this film, as an example, had Belinda Baggs, you know, a world-class longboarder, Lindley Harrell, an amazing First Nations shortboard surfer, and we had Lily Pollard, who's an amazing bodyboarder who's, you know, won competitions at Pipeline and stuff like that and Australian Championships.
So, we had these women go on a journey along the coast of Victoria and interview other women about their experience of the ocean along there like ocean swimmers even these these boogie boarding nannies who were like over i think they were over 60s and every morning they'd go down the beach and just catch waves on their boogie boards to get like and i'm talking like there were 50 women on boogie boards catching waves together so that's what we want to represent with
the work we do there like obviously my background is being a bodyboarder first and foremost though i think you have a chip on your shoulder when you come into this space and you're running a surfing organization you want to make sure it represents everybody. So we want to represent everybody in this work. We also do a PhD program called Wave Changer, which is done with Griffith University.
So that's helping the surf industry. Like it's addressing the issue of like, how can the surf industry decarbonize and become more circular and contribute to the solutions, not remain a part of the problem. The majority of surf companies are still certainly part of the problem. There isn't a lot of environmental ambition in the mainstream surfing world. So we want to fix that with facts and figures and knowledge.
So, we've got a PhD program that's been supported by Polestar Electric Vehicles, which is really cool. They back us on that program, and that's with Griffith University. And then the final program that we do, which is really exciting, and this is all the movement building stuff, but this one, we're about to finish off some discussions right now about some significant funding. But this is called the Trade Up, and this is addressing surfers who are trained people.
And these are typically, I know there are a growing number of females working in the trades, but predominantly in a lot of coastal towns, it is that white guy swinging the hammer during the day and surfing in the afternoon, which is great. But they've been essentially, I believe, ignored by the environment movement for a very long time as being part of the solution. solution, tradies are critical to our lives. I'm sitting in a house. You're sitting in one too. We're trusting that the roof's
not going to fall in. A tradie did that. And I can't do that. Don't trust me with a roof. Do not sit under a roof that I've put up. But tradies are these incredible workforce who have just been ignored by the environmental space for a very long time.
And yet they possess all the skills and abilities to deliver the solutions that we need to do something about climate change, whether that be, you know, renovating the home, electrifying it, making sure it's insulated correctly, reducing energy use, reducing build, like reducing cost of living. Like all of that stuff combines with a tradie who wants to do good stuff in the home. And then we've got the large-scale renewables journey ahead of us.
You know, like there's a workforce we need in this country if we're going to go and do, you know, offshore wind projects are going to help us get off coal. If we're going to build the massive solar farms that help us, you know, take that juice from the sun and make it power our lives.
Tradies are critical to what we do in climate. So, the The Trade Up is a really special program that I'm quite proud of and it's probably the most personal thing that I've developed with Surfers for Climate because I grew up with a lot of tradies in Foster Tunkari and I feel like when I went off to university and got all smart about sustainability and all of the problems of the world, you know, the typical uni student in their 20s that thinks they know everything
because they go to Sustainability and Global Development 101 and start shooting their mouths off in a cafe. You know I was that guy in the beginning and.
My tradie mates were the problem they weren't part of the solution and i think there was an alienation like that happened through that attitude on my part not on theirs about where they fit within the solutions and i i i got to pilot the program a couple of times and i it was really nice because i got to invite all of my tradie mates to a climate thing and that was a big moment for me to you know look around the room and see all these friends
who i've never been able to to have a conversation about climate with and then suddenly have them there supporting it. So that's a really important job for us at Surfers for Climate Moving Forward because so many tradies are surfers. There was a study back, it's a 10-year-old study now, but they found that 60% of tradies surf. So, yeah, it's a huge number of people. And we see them in the, we see the tradie utes at the beach when the waves are pumping. So they're there.
So there's a huge overlap. overlap and and i read on your website that construction accounts for 30 percent of global carbon emissions are you serious yeah yeah it's a huge part of it yeah yeah yeah it's a huge part of it and this is what i mean like it's been we've been so focused in in every developed country on the energy system like how do we get off coal how do we do this and that but there's lots of opportunities that
we've overlooked because we've been so fixated on the energy system and And whilst it is a huge contributor to carbon emissions, like 30% in construction is a significant amount of carbon emissions. We won't even get started on agriculture. You know, like there's other parts of society that are there to be dealt with and they may be easier wins because, for example, we had a particular company doing a low carbon concrete alternative, which if you just choose that concrete, it's called EcoPact.
The partner was Holcim. they supported the first trade-up programs and you know like if a tradie can just choose that concrete instead of the other concrete which is full of carbon due to the way it was made the emissions reductions are significant so there's lots of. Low-hanging fruit in construction to make positive change. It's just about helping the tradies understand they are the leaders, not being told what to do.
It's about there is a leadership position here for you and there's an economic driver. It's a career move. There's lots of positive ways to talk about it. So, that's our work in engaging the movement and trying to build it. The other really cool thing, I might come back to it, but all of that, we do have a really really specific cultural piece around increasing female participation in surfing. But I want to loop back on that one, if that's all right.
Yeah, sure. All of this movement building on this party wave leads towards what we call the line in the sand, which is our main campaign framework. So, it's the line in the sand for our ocean. That has three pillars to it. So, the first goal of the line in the sand campaign is to get an end to new oil and gas developments in our ocean by 2028. We want to see deadlines in place for new fossil fuel projects by 2028. And New South Wales has already banned offshore oil and gas in its waters.
So we've got a really good start there. The second part of that work is to get surfers and coastal communities riding the groundswell of renewable energy opportunity. So understanding what are the opportunities of career growth, of economic growth through renewables. So that's the very kind of let's go on this. Let's move forward on these positive things.
And then the other part is around the work on increasing marine protected areas in Australia so that biodiversity can thrive and that our ocean can kind of heal itself. So, that's the work we do. Politically, it's really important that we achieve bipartisanship on policy because we believe that if you can have the major parties backing a piece of legislation, it's going to be locked in for good.
I know there has been a movement of independence in the political system you know on the federal level particularly but there have been some state independence but I think one of the biggest learnings for me in that minority government type of situation was that a lot of that policy got unwound when it switched back to kind of the two-party system again now you know there are some out there that say that that this multi-party approach may be the future of how we do politics
And if it ends up that way, then so be it. We'll all have to, that'll be very familiar to me. I lived in Sweden with multi-party politics. Like everybody had to build consensus and stuff like that. Like it definitely is a thing that can function. I'm just uncertain if Australia is ready for that because we had one go at it when Julia Gillard had the minority government and it was great. Like for me at the time, I was like, wow, there's so many good things happening.
We've got a carbon tax. Yay, that's exactly what I want. Woohoo. And then Tony Abbott comes in next and just destroys all of it overnight. I think... What really matters in politics in Australia is that we can find those champions within each of the parties and help engage with them. Like, who are the champions for climate in the Liberal Party and the National Party? Who are they in the Labor Party?
Because let's be real, just because the Labor government comes in doesn't mean that every problem is solved. Some of them seem to get done, like there are some- there has been some great progress from this government, but there's also been some stalling on a few really important issues, namely new oil and gas approvals in our ocean. So, we can't pretend like one side of politics has all the solutions. So, you know, but we can't pretend like we don't need them to get on board.
We need the Liberal Party to be on board climate action and remove the barriers to them engaging on the issue, which I'm really pleased to say that in New South Wales, they have been 100% leading on this. When they were in government and also in opposition, it hasn't diminished for them to be thinking about the environment and actually putting forward pretty good policy for how we can address some of the issues we face.
It certainly feels more achievable at a state level currently than at a federal level, doesn't it? It does. It does. And as long as you've got, you know, those who are willing to engage in wrecking, it just makes it very, very difficult for everybody. Enjoying the podcast? If you're looking for more inspiration, head to our website, thecauseeffects.com.au for more resources on how you can start using your business as a force for good. Or buy the For Love and Money book.
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I'm interested because you said to me before we were talking before about the surfing community and I love your vision like you know you talked about two and a half million surfers in this country roughly and the the ability for that community to swing elections to create change to move us in a certain direction so and you talked about surfers and you've talked about tradies so let's talk first about surfers how on board are surf...
It's not a homogenous community, I guess, but tell us about where you're at with that. Yeah, look, I think... The short answer to the question is the majority are not on board. That's not because they're bad people. It's because they haven't been given the takeoff point they need into it that makes sense for them. So that's on us to develop and deliver for them, as I'd already touched on. Everyone's busy with the big issues of the world.
Like, there's a lot of stuff going on in society that distracts you.
You you know like we're recording we're recording this you know just the weekend just passed was when the Bondi Junction you know that attack happened in Bondi Junction and like that takes all of your attention like you know you think about every other part of your life like I live in the eastern suburbs now uh you know a Saturday Arvo and Bondi Junction was a pretty normal stop off after the beach to get some groceries and and head home and chill out like it's it's pretty- Like,
it stops you thinking about every other issue in your life. And it only- It really gets you a laser focus on the core of what matters to you, which is your family and your friends and, you know, the freedoms that you take for granted, the assumptions you make about what's safe and what's not safe in society. Like, we do live in a country where the majority of time it is a pretty safe space on the whole.
I know there are pockets of inequality that exist and the times are are tougher there for people who live there. But, like, I operate in this world as a white guy, generally feeling pretty safe, and it's just really shocking when you've got, you know, I've got a pregnant partner. You know, you think about all those things, and it just really takes your mind off everything else that matters. And I think that, add to that global conflicts, you know, the war in Ukraine is still going on.
Like, you know, that's still a distraction for a lot of people and a good distraction. Like, people are dying. It does matter. The conflict in the Holy Land, you know, Israel and Palestine, like, there is that happening as well. Like, there's constant bombardment of information and issues that do matter. So, when it comes to little old Surfers for Climate and how do we get, you know, the surf community on board this, what we try and do is just make it easy for them.
As I said, like we have to build easy pathways or takeoffs into action. Otherwise, it's going to be too hard for people to make time for it. The majority of surfers aren't on board this. And I think surfing itself has some issues of its own that it needs to resolve in order for it to be the true powerhouse that it can be.
Whilst there have been great steps forward in the quality of prize money in women's surfing, there's still this reality in the water that it's typically dominated by a bunch of white guys hogging the waves, waves not making space for learners you know not least female learners who are paddling out for the first time absolutely terrified not just of the waves but of the men in the water as well so i think for surfers for
climate and this also translates to people riding different craft you know surfing's got a horrendous reputation for discrimination of of people who aren't riding a board that that they think they should be riding i was a bodyboarder for a long time as a white person it was the closest i could ever get to prejudice and and discrimination, from from a bunch of surfers that were absolute pricks like the worst humans you could ever come across so i
dealt with that as a kid and and i think that's the chip on my shoulder that i have in this job is that i'm in a position of power now as a as a guy leading this organization there are a lot of wrongs that need to be righted in surfing for it to be the true power that it can be for the oceans and conservation. And I guess I see it as my job to try and do what I can with the power I have to make it fit for purpose.
And so, that does mean figuring out how to make more space for females in the water so that they can take that space and affect that space. Because what we know already, if you go to a place like Crescent Head, which is a little north of Newcastle, if anyone listening doesn't know it, but it's a beautiful place. If you paddle out at Crescent Head, what you will notice is that there are more women than men surfing out there. And that changes everything.
Like, it absolutely changes how people interact with each other. It's a more positive space. It's a more pleasant space to be in. There's none of that vibe that makes you feel weird. It's super positive. And I think that's the type of thing we need to realise in Australia and in surfing globally is that opening up surfing to more women and providing the space they deserve is only a positive when it comes to the culture.
We've seen, you know, there's been this narrative around like, you know, can girls surf as well as men, you know, and there's been all these ridiculous discussions about biology. Oh, they can't, it's not built the same way. Yeah, sure. Wave pools have actually unlocked a lot of potential that is proving that's the most absurd proposition ever.
Like, there's young girls like Sierra Kerr, who's now like 18, but like, she's one surfer now who she's surfing just as good as anyone her age or older who's male or female. Why is she able to do that? It's because she had access to waves and a passion to match that access. So, wave pools actually are a huge solution, I feel, to some of these issues about women and advancing their skills in the water because wave pills make you wait in line for waves and you can't push in.
Whereas out in the ocean, yeah, out in the ocean, there's an argy-bargy that happens and there's a, you know, it's like you're dealing with a silverback gorilla out the back who's, like, dominating the space and beating up anyone who gets in their way. Like, it's horrendous. So...
Access access right and it's it's i mean god it's not just limited to surfing i as you're talking it makes me think about the women's soccer and did you see the label the label ads where they showed they used ai and yes another one yeah so they showed what you thought was men's soccer players doing amazing things and then they said we've you know used ai to uh to to change who the players were and showed the real footage of, you know, it's women doing that.
And then you're looking at what the Matildas did. And one of the best things I heard during that time was a woman who called into radio and said, my daughter just said to me, me, do boys play soccer as well? I'm like, yes! That's amazing. That's amazing. And, look, surfing's had that. It is being addressed, but I feel like at Surfers for Climate that there's a balancing act, a rebalancing, and it has to do with the dominance of different craft.
Like, surfing's an Olympic sport, but it's only shortboarding that's the Olympic sport. Longboarding was the original surfing. Like, in reality, that should be the first Olympic sport, if you want to, you know, pay tribute to where it all came from. Yeah, there's just, there's a few things in surfing that I think need to be addressed.
Female participation, diversity of craft, diversity of people as well looking at also people who non-binary and and things like that you know like it's not it's not quite there yet but i do believe it can be that force for good the more inclusive that surfing as a culture is the more powerful it will become and we just need to kind of address the transactional nature of surfing as well at its core it's a transactional relationship.
A surfer goes to the beach to take waves and feel good about what they took for the rest of the day. And then at the end of the day, after all the hard work is done and they're feeling a little down again, they'll go to the beach and they'll take some more waves so they feel good again.
So, and this is great, like the mental health benefits of surfing are well documented and there's a lot of amazing orgs using surfing to deliver mental health outcomes, but But are they contributing to the protection of that space? Like, are they making sure that the ocean is healthy enough so that surfing can continue?
I think all of these orgs that use surfing as a way to solve mental health issues need to actually ask themselves as well, like, what am I doing to actually save the ocean from climate being the biggie? That has to be part of their narrative because you can't just keep taking from the environment for your own good feelings and expect it to be there by default for you.
So, that's a biggie for a lot of people because I know, like, I've got friends, like, we use, you know, they'll use language that's transactional. I banked a few waves today.
Yeah, I banked a few good waves today. cool what did you do for the ocean like what are you doing for the ocean like you're just taking you're just like a miner digging a hole and getting what's valuable out of that hole and leaving a hole behind surfing needs to address that and i think that's part of what our job is at surfers for climate is to help redefine what it means to be a great surfer you have to be, someone who's caring for that space as well as taking from it it has to be an
equal exchange and And unfortunately, it is an unequal exchange presently. And it goes back to the beginning that we talked about love, right? I imagine the common denominator is all surfers love the ocean. Yeah, I don't know if they love the ocean, though. People say this and they say, oh, when you love nature, you will look after it. It's like surfers don't fit that description. Like, they're not bushwalkers. Is that right? Well, if you go for a bushwalk, to me, and I don't like bushwalking.
There's just too many hazards out there for me and there's not enough water. You're there just absorbing it. It's like scuba diving. You go scuba diving, you're not taking anything. You're just existing in the space and getting a glimpse of nature. Whereas with surfing, you're going there to take something. You're not, the majority of surfers aren't sitting out the back going, how lovely is the ocean? Oh, how blue and clear. Okay, yeah. Look at that dolphin. Oh, that's delightful.
They're not thinking like that. they're thinking where's the next wave coming from has that guy paddled deeper than me is he does he think he's going to take the next wave that guy i've been sitting here longer than him how dare like what the hell i'm going to paddle deeper than him now you know like it's kind of it's just a competitive landscape it's like being on a field and you're fighting you know like like seagulls fighting over a chip that's that's yeah so you've
got a bit of that toxic masculinity to To work through. Yeah, yeah. It's all there. It's all there. And everyone who's in the ocean surfing is waiting for that good thing to come and they're positioning themselves. It's like they're positioning themselves for the next wave. They're not thinking about how much they love the ocean. Yeah. Leave that to the scuba divers and... Yeah, like it's- and the ocean swimmers. I think ocean swimmers, I reckon they're swimming, loving the ocean.
Like, I think they're getting their exercise, but like, oh, how cool is this? Look at this. Like, ocean swimmers to me are absolute gold and crazy because they'll swim in- I've done a bit of it and it's just terrifying to me. But at least surfing, you're in a safer space. But yeah, that's the cultural shift, I think.
But that translates across to so many other areas, you know, and that's why, like, the Bob Brown Foundation down in Tassie, they really hit the nail on the head when they did the Tarkine running challenge where people would fundraise, they'd run the Tarkine, they're running in nature, they're appreciating it, and they're contributing to the protection of it by running within it. And that to me is a genius outcome.
And that's fit for purpose for that group, the challenge with surfers is, yeah, like, and I haven't solved it yet. Like, it's definitely there to be solved, but how do we change that culture into one of care and sharing and appreciation whilst also getting those waves that make you feel good? That's the golden opportunity of surfing. And then once we can get there, then the true power is kind of unleashed. And, yeah, like we decide every election after that. That's it. That's when it all opens.
What a vision. What a vision. And, look, huge and obviously you've got a lot of work in front of you but you touched on it. It's about... Changing the narrative or zeroing in on the narrative of some and building it and amplifying it and building the movement from there. Now, we're going to have to wrap up because of time, but I feel like we just touched a little bit on that big piece, which was that the New South Wales legislation.
I know, I know. There's so much going on. I get in trouble for this, for just glossing over like a victory. But that's, can you tell us about it? Yeah, sure, sure. Look, I mean, for a long time, the issue of PEP 11 has been kind of lingering off the coastline. There's been any number of politicians who've had big things to say about PEP 11 in the lead up to elections, and then not much to say about them when the election is won and they go back to work.
Can you tell our listeners, just those who might not know about PEP 11, what that is? Okay, so PEP 11 is a huge area of oil and gas opportunity off the coast of New South Wales. It stretches from a little north of Newcastle down to just down to Wollongong. So, it's a huge area of ocean. It was identified as an oil and gas opportunity a long time ago. There's a company that owns the rights to drill in there and explore for oil and gas. They've been waiting for a permit to let them go ahead.
There's been tremendous community opposition against it for quite some time because off the back of the fight for the bite, It became clear that coastal communities could actually do something about it. The difference though, and this is a big difference, the fight for the bite was won not because of politicians in Australia. It was won because the brand was damaged for the Norwegian oil company and they left. They decided to walk away. It wasn't because a politician did anything good.
It was very real activism against a corporate interest. PEP 11 is different because it's about gas. We do have gas in our economy and in our energy system. It has been framed as a transition fuel to get us towards renewables because it doesn't emit as much carbon as coal, but it's still a polluting methane fossil fuel. So it is still contributing to the problem. Funnily enough, Scott Morrison, in the lead up to the 2022 federal election, put a ban.
He said that PEP 11 was dead and he made the decision because he had all those portfolios that he didn't tell everyone he had. He was the resources minister at the time as well as prime minister. He squashed it. And so, great, it was done, but it wasn't done the right way. We celebrated it at the time, knowing full well it was a political move. Like, he just wanted to try and win an election. Fair play.
It was brought back from the dead because the people looking into the gas there knew that it wasn't done correctly and went to the federal court. And then they said, you know, we need to actually take this back and do it properly. So it sits with the Albanese government. Zali Stegall, as an independent in Warringah, she has put forward a bill to try and stop PEP 11. That hasn't got up yet. And it probably won't, you know, like this is the thing about power.
You have to have power to change stuff in politics.
Like the independents can put up good ideas but if they don't have the relationships to get them into legislation they're just not gonna there's no leverage there in the lead up to the state election is an interesting one and it's quite nuanced but the liberal national party when they had power had a position of not allowing any seabed mining in new south wales coastal waters which was their way at the time of responding to pep 11 as a as a government to say that they didn't support it it didn't
have teeth it was a policy position there was some work done and i think labor had a position on it as well in the state government yeah we don't support that either because obviously no one voting wanted it like it was one of those things there was a bunch of independents in the lead up to the state election who put forward a bill or a policy position about blocking the coastal waters as well as any pipelines that would run through to the state to the federal waters and that
was like a really cool idea that was developed there jackie scrooby was one one such independent who was pushing that forward also alex greenwich who who's the member for sydney and so that was done really well jolene hackman sorry as well another person who was a candidate at the time that was a good idea but they didn't win power either when it came to the election result the labour party got in they've got a minority government but the.
Liberal and National Coalition was in opposition and still quite ambitious on the environment. We'd been building a relationship with the Coalition for. In the lead up to that election, because we always want to go where the environmental upside is greatest. So, that's why we're focused on conservative politicians predominantly with our engagement, because they are often not up to the level that everyone wants them to be.
So, engaging them proactively and respectfully is a really good tool if you want to try and get that bipartisan outcome when it comes to politics. So, from opposition, the Liberal National Party introduced a bill to ban offshore sea mining and to block that infrastructure once the new parliament kicked off.
We backed that publicly because one of the big things in advocacy is that too often, and I've spoken to politicians on all sides, too often a politician will do a good thing and everyone in the environmental movement will go, good, about time. You know, like it's kind of, there's never really this ability for anyone to just like clap, like a golfer's clap on the side. Yeah, just recognise it. Like I don't, like I was brought up to give credit where it's due. Like give credit where it's due.
Good job. Like it's not hard. And when you've got a platform like what we have at Surfers for Climate, you can actually scale that credit. You can go, hey, everybody, this just happened. These people did it. Let's give them a clap. And now let's help get this over the line. So that's what happened when the coalition got on board. And like, that's a big deal. Like we had the whole, this wasn't like one liberal party member saying, I think this should happen.
This was like the whole coalition in New South Wales backing a ban on offshore oil and gas in New South Wales waters. Never before seen in history. Very big moment politically because what it says to the community is that.
Anyone can do good climate policy they've just got to do it they've just got to do it and so this is a message that signal gets said and that's the key isn't it that's the key you take it away from the political identity yes well some some would argue i know i have have a great relationship friendship now with james griffin the member for manly and you know we talk a lot about like the the idea of being a conservative politician and how that politician engaged with conservation
like they are linked like the ideals are linked in in conservative politics and conservation we know from history that margaret thatcher was one of the first politicians to raise the alarm about climate change one of the most conservative politicians in history was on the front foot when it came to climate change so it is not a a liberal or labor issue it is an everyone issue and it's all about those politicians grabbing onto it and going okay okay,
how does my position fit in relation to this issue and how do we create policy that sticks with our ideological base whilst also addressing the problem? It's not impossible. And I think that's the credit that's due for the Liberals and Nationals in New South Wales who, before that, were actually rolling out massive renewable energy zones across the country, leading the country on climate policy in New South Wales.
And I'm talking about Matt Keane, James Griffin, you know, Gladys Berejiklian, there were some great politicians doing good work from the Liberal side of politics. So that process kicked off almost a year ago now. It's probably just over a year ago since that started with the Liberals and Nationals introducing this bill. It was sent off to an Environment Committee for review.
We activated our membership to really back it. So we put out a survey to our members that said, hey- can you let us know how you feel about this, this, this, this, and this? And it was all about this legislation, backing it, supporting it. So, we got 1,700 responses to that survey, which was actually quite good given the sample size. We used that in our submission to the Environment Committee. We were then invited to a public hearing where we were asked questions on the
spot. It's pretty terrifying, but it was a lot of fun. One of those little moments where you You take the deep breath and you believe you're meant to be there. And then over the committee handed down its response and it came back quite negative, but this is where the politics is a little, this is how politics gets funny and weird, but like there are all these holes poked in the legislation that the Liberals and Nationals have put forward.
The following summer, like the summer break happens and in the first week of the sitting, the Labor government introduces a bill to ban offshore oil and gas.
Which was very similar to the one that was proposed the year before but it was done through different means and look this is politics like no government ever wants to let a private member's bill win in like it's just it just can't it's not allowed to happen but the utility of that moment it lifted the issue up the agenda in a way that it hadn't been lifted up before like by getting bipartisan action on it we brought it up to the top of what had to be figured out and that's
why it got done it was never going to get done if it wasn't brought up the agenda high enough for it to matter and that's the role that surface for climate played was getting it up the agenda in a novel way that included every politician in the parliament and we hustled you know like we were knocking on doors in that place introducing ourselves to every politician in that building bar the one nation bar bar one nation we didn't bother knocking on that door you got to draw a
line somewhere you gotta draw a line somewhere but like we we've chatted to everyone in the building. And we did the work. And then, you know, the outcome was that the Labor Party went to the drawing board, developed a position, developed legislation and introduced it. And then what did we do next? We showed up and congratulated the Labor Party. And we stood there with them and got the photos. And we said to everyone, hey, look, they did a good thing too. And so we didn't pick a side.
We were there for everyone. And now, you know, we're in discussions now with the Minister for Climate, Penny Sharp. You know, we're working on other things we can do that are positive for the ocean with government. That action is- And the other states? Yeah, well, the other states, this is kind of part of our strategy now. So, New South Wales passed the legislation. It's the first state in the country to ban offshore oil and gas.
That's 8.8 million people who can go to the beach tomorrow and go, you know, dip their toe in the water. I'm here at Byron Bay, which is New South Wales. so I'll go in the water and I know that that body of water is not part of the problem with climate change anymore. That's part of the solution. So that's a big opportunity and a big realisation about what's possible. And so we believe that there's a really neat way to replicate this success in other states.
And I'm heading off to South Australia in late May to visit a bunch of politicians down there to have exactly the same conversations, conversations to build the same type of momentum. Our new campaigns manager, Coco, is off to Tasmania to build exactly the same momentum and exactly the same conversations. We think that Tassie and South Australia could well be the next two states that would embrace this type of legislative change.
And we're going to try and get that done because as we get more states on board, it becomes increasingly difficult for the remaining states to keep doing what they're doing. It's kind of like, you know, everybody wants to be on the same wave and I think the states, you know, you don't want to be the outlier. So, that's the job ahead now. Like, we're really excited. We've got the wind in our sails. There's nothing like a win to build support for your cause.
Like, a lot of groups and this is where we're a very different organization. I was like, I am so competitive that I cannot tolerate being in this job and just participating. I cannot tolerate being in it and saying, we're going to do this or we're going to do that.
I just want to come in and win at climate and then I want to become redundant because I don't think enough environmental groups actually view themselves as having a job that requires a redundancy plan, my job is to solve the problem and then.
Go away like i'm not here to build an organization that perpetually finds problems to solve i'm here to solve the problem and go and i think that's something that needs to be broadly understood in other groups like i don't know how long world hunger has been solving itself right how many orgs have been solving that problem i'd argue that they're not really solving it at all yeah because, that's still here. Absolutely.
So, like, what are they really doing? I don't want to lead an organisation like that. I want one that's going to live and die solving its problem and then, yeah, redundancy is the best outcome for my job. I love it. I love it. That's amazing. Josh, thank you for coming on this podcast. No worries. And thank you for sharing everything that you guys are doing and your activism. I love that it is about action over talking and giving all those different take-off points.
And your ambition for creating that movement is just super inspiring. We'll put in the show notes links to Surfers for Climate. There are different ways people can get involved from membership to hosting car park cinema. Trivia nights, car park events. Yeah, we've got all of it. but get involved. Yeah, all of that. So encourage everyone to, all our listeners to go to the website and share it with their friends.
But what I'd love to close on, and I'm going to ask you to close out the show with your dream. If you could achieve your greatest ambitions five years from today. What would it look like? Five years from today, we have strong deadlines in place on new fossil fuel projects in our ocean. We've got more states already banning offshore oil and gas. And we have, my colleague put it best, Coco, we have 70% of coastal people okay with offshore renewables.
We don't need people to become like absolute zealots for the cause. We just need people to be okay with it. it's not a huge deal, but the benefits for future generations, I'm just about to have my first child. So, it means more than ever to say that and to have that driver. I've never really understood it in other people, like the future generation bit, because I've never had a kid. But it's becoming more real to me that, you know, what we leave behind is it really does matter.
The legacy that each of us has with our lives matters. And for an organisation like Surfers for Climate, it. The legacy I want to leave is one that they got in, they paddled deep, they took off on the big waves, they got the job done. And then they went back to shore. There's an end to this. There has to be an end to this. And that is the end of the organization's existence because it solved the problem it said it was going to solve. And I want to do it quickly because that matters. Music.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the For Love and Money podcast. If you'd like to take a deeper dive into the purpose movement, visit us at thecauseeffect.com.au. And remember, doing good is good for business. So if you're not doing good, then what are you doing?