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hostile economic conditions, everyone doing it tough as we're so often told out there in the real world, high interest rates. high inflation. The DNA of a defeat is kind of sitting there as well as, you know, a second term for the Labor government. One for Mum. One for Dan. to be an Australian. Budgets are about choices Fran and you show what you value through the choices you make. This is cold. Don't be afraid. Don't be scared.
Hello and welcome to Follow the Money, the Australia Institute's podcast. which explains economics, politics and policy in plain English. I'm Glenn Connolly, Senior Media Advisor at the Australia Institute, sitting in for Ebony Bennett this week. Well, we've made it to the final week of the election campaign. And short of a huge slip-up, the only question which remains is...
Are the polls right? The federal election trail now and critical final polling is pointing to an Albanese government return come Saturday's election. Well, the opinion polls have all drifted towards Labor over the last six to eight weeks.
I don't think that's an imaginary trend. Notwithstanding all of the very many complicated contests that make our national figure, you know, a little less predictive than it used to be. I do think the election will be closer than the polls indicate. You have managed a spot. from outer space, the traction which Peter Dutton is allegedly getting, which has eluded... I've got very good eyesight. You have outstanding eyesight.
Joining me today to discuss the campaign is one of the country's leading political commentators. Mark Kenny is Professor of Australian Studies at the Australian National University, former Fairfax Chief Political Correspondent and host of the Democracy Sausage podcast.
G'day there, Glenn. Everyone's been saying it's been a long campaign. I haven't felt that. It's probably not been an inspiring campaign. What about you? I think it's probably a function of the latter, isn't it? You say it's not been an inspiring campaign and so therefore I guess some people feel... It feels long because it's not been marked by any sort of huge kind of, you know, pivotal policy debate.
It hasn't been super exciting. There's been a lot of debates, a lot of actual prime ministerial or leaders' debates, you know, more than we've ever seen before. And it's been quite formulaic in its sort of structure. So, yeah, you get these sort of complaints every time. People always say, oh, this is the most boring campaign I've ever had.
Sorry to lapse into the Dutton a bit there. But this has been the most boring campaign, you know, I can remember. You get this sort of said a lot and it feels to me like, you know, this is kind of part of our discourse really, a kind of a culture of complaint about our politics. It's almost like one of the rituals of a campaign is to...
critique it as incredibly boring, disappointing, unimaginative and all these things. To an extent, all of these criticisms are legitimate, of course, and not all campaigns are the same. Some are probably a bit... better or worse than others, but this one doesn't feel like it's dramatically different. Does that play into the hands of the Prime Minister equally by having Easter, the Anzac Day long weekend and people turning off?
Does that play into the Prime Minister's hands? I think it has. Whether it was intended to or not, it's another debate. I guess we can't know that for sure, but my instinct would be that... The Prime Minister thought this through quite well, as did Paul Erickson, the Labor Party secretary, and the others in the sort of Labor Brains Trust. Some governments, some prime ministers in the past have succumbed to the kind of almost hubristic idea that...
They have very, very long campaigns. I think Bob Hawke had a 10-week campaign at one stage. Malcolm Turnbull had a very long campaign. And this is often prime ministers. thinking their opponent is not up to the task and will be exposed over a long campaign. I think Albanese resisted this particular piece of judgment. and preferred the other, which I would say is more sound judgment, which is short and sharp.
And, of course, you can only go so short because you have a minimum 33 days between the issuing of the writs and the election itself. but you can shorten it in other ways. And if you have an election that happens to straddle Easter, and as you say, Anzac Day, and Anzac Day is so close to Easter that a lot of people essentially took off the three days in between the two and turned that into a cheap 10-day break.
then, you know, that really does shorten the campaign for a lot of people because they sort of switch off and even the politicians could go into cruise mode for a few days. And I don't think that was the disadvantage of a government. If you're seeking to unseat a government, on the other hand, you need every day you can get and you need to make every post a winner.
I guess there's an argument to say, at least on the basis of what we understand of the polls at the moment, that the opposition hasn't made every post a winner. And so, yeah, it's worked out, I think, better for the government. I remember that long Hawke campaign. But it was different. There was a bit of morning radio, a 6 p.m. news bulletin, and Feed the Page. Could you imagine 10 weeks with today's media cycle, which largely drives...
That's a really good point, isn't it? Yeah, election campaigning did used to be a lot more kind of analogue, if I can put it like that. You got things in the paper, usually by some sort of drop late in the day before. This is the part of the campaign that you are in control of, of course, the ROIs. other things like what the other side's doing and sometimes the mistakes that you make which end up being the story.
But, yeah, you could plan out your campaign in that way and that 10 weeks, I can remember too, was a very long campaign and, of course, it ended up succumbing to drift. you know, and boredom and errors and focuses on things going wrong. And so what's your take so far? There's only a few days to go. What's your take over what you've seen over the last... few weeks, everything suggests maybe Labor Majority Just or Labor Minority. Is there anything...
suggesting otherwise to you? Well, I've just written a piece that's in today's Canberra Times, which considers the possibility that the polls aren't correct. Earlier last week, there was three pollsters who addressed the National Press Club together in a sort of a panel. So I wonder if I could invite you to think about the sorts of things you might be saying on those comments desk on election night, if in fact it's gone the other way.
What would be the dominant thing, you think, that will have delivered that upset result? Pretty clear, and that is it. The angst that's built up within the electorate, particularly out of suburban Australia and regional Australia, was so great that it... toppled a number of seats in very unexpected ways.
It's not a good time to be in government. We've seen that around the world in the sort of post-pandemic period. We've seen governments getting tossed out. We've seen the rise of the right in a number of democracies, the populist right. And, of course, hostile economic conditions, everyone doing it tough, as we're so often told out there in the real world, high interest rates, high inflation, although coming down now, but still the sort of public animus.
for that inflation still there, housing constant crisis, you know, general sense of kind of disappointment and malaise with what governments are able to do. These are strong background conditions for a government losing. The DNA of a defeat is kind of sitting there as well as a victory, you know, a second term for the Labor government, even though that's... quite the standard thing. Governments always get a second term in this country, just about. So I think it's not impossible to say...
the election in different terms from that which we get from the impression from which we get from polling. So given the conditions you've just outlined... with years of high inflation, incumbent governments getting whacked all around the globe. How is it even that Labor is ahead in the polls, let alone apparently on? for minority government or even majority? Well, I think the story there is of opposition failure for the most part. I think that what Peter Dutton has done on the face of it...
has been quite impressive. He's taken a party that's been turfed out of government and quite quickly got it into the appearance of being quite competitive, the appearance of being a government in waiting. at least when there wasn't an election immediately around the corner. And so for the last year, and particularly in the period after being so instrumental in defeating the voice referendum...
the opposition's been riding high. It's been having better poll results than Labor. The opposition leaders had better approval ratings than the Prime Minister a lot of the time, sometimes better preferred PM numbers. And, you know, it's all looked pretty good for the opposition for a period of time. Now, that was sort of really leading right into even into the early part of 2025.
But when the election has stopped being a theoretical thing, because, you know, pollsters ask if an election were held next Saturday, who would you vote for? It's inherently a hypothetical question, right? It turns out now there is an election happening next Saturday, or sort of figuratively speaking, in certainly a few Saturdays' time. And as the election gets closer, that hypothetical question becomes a real one and people start to think about it a bit more deeply in a more applied way.
And I think they look at the opposition in that process as much as they have been in the past just looking at the government and thinking about their frustrations about the government. They start looking at the alternative. And what's been there? It turns out, if I can lapse into technical jargon, bugger all. You know, there hasn't been much in the way of policy. It turns out Dutton's unity, which has been uncommon for an opposition...
It's hard for opposition leaders. It's always said to be the toughest job in politics. People wanting progress, people, you know, ambitious competitors for the job. You know, it's the stepping. stepping later to the prime ministership. And so opposition leaders tend to be quite precarious. Think about, for example, Howard, right? He loses in 2007. And by 2009, that is within one term of opposition...
They're on to their third leader. You know, they've cycled through Brendan Nelson, then Malcolm Turnbull, and then they're on to Tony Abbott by the end of 2009. having lost office toward the end of 2007, so in just two years. This is not uncommon in history for opposition leaders to face a lot of difficulties. Dutton hasn't had any of that, right? And he hasn't had any of that because he was lucky enough to lose Frydenberg in the election in 2022.
They lost the election, but Frydenberg lost his seat, which meant he was removed. He was the other obvious and perhaps more likely opposition leader once they were in opposition, but he was gone, right? So Dutton had a clear run. Then what he did, it seems to me, is he kind of purchased unity by having no fights on policy and no fights on personnel. What do we end up with? We end up with a very thin policy offering.
you know where he's sort of given into the nats on nuclear for example you know sort of a fantasy policy and which masquerades as big thinking but in fact is way over the horizon and in its own strange way is actually a bit of small target policy And we end up with a very, very weak front bench team. I mean, this is the thinnest. weakest front bench team I've seen putting forward for a government in a long time, perhaps since the entire time I've been watching politics.
What about Peter Dutton, the man? I remember at the time he was elected, as you say, Frydenberg was gone. He was the obvious choice. There was a lot of conversation at that time about him being unelected. I spent the first two years of his opposition working in the gallery. I actually found him...
Not unpleasant to deal with, very softly spoken man despite his tough reputation, but I was always a little sceptical of the decision to only really speak to Sky News and Ben Fordham and whoever the shouting predecessor was. Look, it has. In some ways, it strengthened his support amongst people who probably already supported him.
But that's not, you know, getting someone who already votes for you to like you more doesn't increase the number of votes you have. But what about in this campaign? Has he been exposed? by not having the sort of scrutiny of the gallery on a real regular basis? Yeah, it's a good question because that's been, in a sense, the way, it's another way in which he's kind of purchased this illusion of substance and momentum.
because he's spoken mostly to friendly media outlets. He's done, as you say, a number of those sort of sky nighttime interviews. He's done Sydney Talkback Radio a bit and Melbourne Talkback Radio a bit where he often gets coaxed into some pretty loose kind of statement. And he's basically avoided really doing the kind of, you know, weekly or at least monthly kind of press conferences in Canberra where you are faced by the nations.
best and certainly most schooled political journalists and economic journalists. You know, people who are following debates, who've covered endless election cycles and budgets and everything else, and who... understand politics. That's the thing they do, as distinct from the reporters out in the regions, which is where Dutton's done a lot of his doorstops. So he gives the illusion of doing as many kind of interviews, but mostly they're around.
country and out in the regions where the questions are not as applied, not as derived from a deep understanding of of politics and government and so forth. Look, I've tried to get cameras to some of those things that often there's one cameraman throwing a question if he's in remote Tassie or far north Queensland. So has that lulled him into a bit of a false sense of security, like when you say you get before the gallery?
They're on to you in a second. So has there been that false sense of security, do you think? Well, I think this campaign has exposed Dutton as, you know, like he started off very slowly in this campaign. And one of the things I've been saying a bit is... As we were saying earlier in this discussion, the government has ended up running full term. Who knew? I mean, Albanese said he wanted to run full term. He said it over and over again, and that's what he's done.
I mean, May was the latest time this election could be held, and lo and behold, that's when this election is being held. And yet, even though that's the case...
The opposition seemed to have been caught off guard. You know, it's just like, oh, oh, election, oh. And so there was a real sense from the start of the campaign that he was... not match fit, you know, that he was not quite, he might have thought he'd trained up well, but he just hadn't done all of those tough interviews, he hadn't done those tough doorstops, and they hadn't really done the policy thing.
there's an assumption here right that underpins this strategy and and it is that all those conditions we were talking about before those kind of macroeconomic conditions were such that the government was in a very weak position and Dutton would just continue a focus on the government rather than on being the government, on presenting as the alternative government. And I think that strategy worked.
outside of the high-tempo glare of an election campaign. But as soon as you're in an election campaign... People are saying, yeah, yeah, but what would you do? What are your policies? What's your manifesto, your formula, your vision for Australia? And that started to look very thin. I think the way that we see this play out in microcosm is what's happened in these four.
leadership debates that we've seen, is that each time... I don't know about you, but as someone who's watched this thing for a long time, this political thing for a long time, I've thought Dutton has won those debates pretty well, all of them, or been close enough to winning them. I think he's nailed his lines more. I think he's sort of a better, more direct communicator than Albanese.
My opinion doesn't matter. What matters is the opinion of voters and particularly undecided voters. And when the Sky News People's Forum happened and they had a polling company... put together whatever it was, 100.
uh undecided voters and you know we saw with channel 7 in the last debate they had another group i think it was 60 of them undecided you know people chosen for how that answered a questionnaire and and and had come across as people who genuinely had mixed views, probably favoured policies on both sides or ideas and so were regarded as undecided. Every time, these groups have not just given the debates to Albanese, they've given them decisively to Albanese.
I mean, the one the other night was 50 to 25. I mean, it was astonishingly clear margin. I haven't seen a leader win a debate by that kind of margin in the past. I think what we're seeing here is that voters don't love the aggression. So when I think Dutton's won a point, he's like won the point but lost the argument or won the argument but lost the audience, whatever it is, you know, it's interesting.
aggression's not going to get it done. Yeah, I think there was a line in the second last debate where Albanese said... What do you say to the opposition claims that you're too soft, that you're too wishy-washy? Do we need more of a hard man as a... It's just rhetoric. Kindness isn't weakness. People just wanted to see a normal human that they can relate to and not a tough guy. Yeah, I think that's right. And this goes to the point about Trump, right? Dutton has made a big strategic error.
in sort of being very kind of... encouraged by the rise of Trump and the rise of the right in Austria and Germany and a range of other places. And, you know, there was always a danger that they could get ahead of themselves here, you know, forgetting that Australia is not America, Australia is not these European countries, Australia has a very centrist-oriented politics.
facilitated by its compulsory preferential voting system and highly respected Australian Electoral Commission. There's a real kind of centrism to our politics that is sort of institutionally buttressed. Dutton, I think, was more encouraged by what happened with Trump. And so we saw him use some of these Trumpist-type terms. We saw him praise Trump as a visionary, shrewd, a big thinker, these kinds of things.
And, of course, the reality of Trump has been horrendous for the international economy, for the trading system, for democracy itself. I mean, we've seen blatantly fascist.
type activities from the White House and from supporters of the Trump administration. And Australians are mostly appalled by this. And Dutton sort of got caught there. So he's been sort of spending a bit of time trying to kind of... walk away from that to back off from it a bit but whether it's been persuasive or not I don't know but that's the deficit I think he's carried into some of these debates and so
He's been running this narrative which very much stems from his assessment of what's been going on in democracies around the world, the narrative being, you know, that Anthony Albanese is weak. And what's that slogan he's been running? They're weak, they're woke, and they're sending you broke. And I think Australians are looking at that and they're saying, actually...
I don't know that I buy that and, in fact, it sounds a bit Trumpist to me. It sounds like, you know, you're proposing to quite dramatically transform Australian society and sort of muscle up. in ways that I don't feel comfortable about. And of course... Women mostly see it as a direct threat to them, the sort of rise of the manosphere and all this bullshit that has been happening in the US.
podcast heroes and the like. So I think a lot of it's sort of backfired for him. By the time of the next election in 2025... We will have presented a plan to the Australian people which will clean up Labor's inevitable mess and lay out our own vision. Our policies will be squarely aimed at the forgotten Australians in the suburbs across regional Australia. the families and small businesses whose lot the Labor Party will have made more difficult.
Similar to the Trump issue where he's cozied up then had to back away. Is part of his problem still on a domestic level? Do I go for nailed on right-wing liberals or do I try to win back TLC? Has he still got that dilemma that might ultimately be more costly?
on saturday yeah time's going to tell on that this is in a sense the big question of this election campaign because as a you know as we both know the the message he sent from that very first press conference was you know that the election will be one in the suburbs and regions, and this has been his strategy all the way through. And I think the calculation that he made is
The teal seats or the inner cities are moving against the Liberal Party and the demographic future of the Liberal Party is in the regions. You know, Trump succeeded in flipping sort of de-industrialised. blue-collar workers who'd been lifelong Democrats across to the Republicans. That had been the story in Brexit as well in the UK where...
The Brexiteers, the people advocating withdrawal from Europe, they were sort of running this campaign and sort of take back control sort of stuff, the nostalgia and the idea of nationalism and everything else. And I think that's the... You know, that's the analysis that Dutton made is that's the future of the Liberal Party. And he said a number of times, quite explicitly, he told the Minerals Council and other business groups, you know, the Liberal Party is the party of the work.
The Labour Party is the party of, you know, the inner city professionals and the Greens and the wokest and everything else. You know, this has been his assessment. Now, perhaps this is going to be proved true. Perhaps it's going to be proved true in the longer term, even if it isn't proved true in this election. But it came with a cost, and the cost was essentially surrendering that territory that they had just lost. And the 2022 election was a revolution.
I mean, these were the liberal jewels that went, you know, seats held by former liberal prime ministers and treasurers. seats that had been the sort of basis of the Liberal Party and the funding basis of the Liberal Party as well. which suddenly had just flipped across to these teal independents. And Dutton was... explicitly making a strategy not to try and recover them. But I think he thought that if I don't have to gesture to them, I can speak much more clearly.
to the new Liberals, to the people that we want to get across. We don't have to go on. We can run an anti-woke campaign and be much more, you know, kind of... you know, sort of old school on environment and stuff. If we don't have to sort of gesture to the inner cities, then we can speak much more clearly to the suburbs.
And maybe that will work, but it sounds to me like it's a pretty high-risk strategy as well because they've got almost no safe seats now left in the cities around the country. How do you rate the Prime Minister's campaign? I mean, if he... retain a majority or even just form a minority government, he might be sort of lauded as a political genius. But my gut feeling is he doesn't look great out there. How do you rate the campaign that he...
More specifically, the Labor Party has run. Well, structurally, I rate it quite highly, like as in I think the architecture of the campaign has been quite clever. We've discussed, you know, the intercession of those. holiday periods and so forth, and just the fact that they rolled out almost all of their policy before the election campaign. which I think has been quite a successful strategy. with the late and the inadequate release of policy.
by the coalition through this period. That's been one of the astonishing things. What about Albo's performance? Yeah, just sticking to Labor for a minute, I think the campaign has been good. I think Albo's performance has been... good-ish, which is to say that's all it was ever probably going to be. He's not a great performer in media. He's not a great speaker. He's not a great sort of rhetorician. a person who's likely to make persuasive, visionary, imaginative speeches.
he's more technical and more sort of what you'd call adequate at that. What he actually is, though, is he's very, very experienced. He's perhaps the most experienced parliamentarian in the House. He's been there since 96, his first dozen years in office.
in Parliament, was spent watching the Labour Party lose to John Howard. And he's taken a great deal... that he sees himself as a kind of a labor version of John Howard you know has the the bead of the people sort of thing understands common sense and I think he has this
To that extent, I think he's quite good, and I think he's a very, very good parliamentarian. This is not really appreciated, but he's actually a really competent... When he's in the House, he's in his happy... you know he managed that minority parliament for gillard really well in 2010 2013 and he will be able to handle a minority situation if that's what they end up with because he's actually quite good
But publicly, I don't think his campaign's been very inspiring. I don't think he really sort of inflames the passions of people. But he hasn't made too many mistakes. I mean, falling off the stage wasn't a mistake. denying that it happened was probably not really that significant, although a bit of an easy gift to the opposition really. You notice they've been really ramping up this thing, he's a liar, he's a liar, he's a liar. And that's one of the bits of evidence they use.
And although it's not a very telling bit of evidence... It, you know, it sort of happened in real time and people can see it and they go, why don't you just admit you fell off? Why did you not admit you fell off? You know, that kind of thing. So I think it's been an adequate campaign, unexciting, but perhaps.
and I think this was implicit in one of your earlier questions, perhaps that's what they wanted. This is about continuing a government rather than installing a new one. So was it incumbent then upon the opposition to come up with... decent reforms and not small targets? Or do we just have to live with the fact that the major parties are only ever going to be?
small target parties in election campaigns? Well, we don't have to look too far back to see when they didn't have a small target, which is 2019, where it was a very comprehensive set of redistributive policies that Bill Shorten took forward. We saw how that was picked off very skillfully by Scott Morrison. And we should take, just by the way, a listen from 2019. I mean, the polls show that Labor's going to survive this election.
but they showed Labour was going to win that election right up until the fact. happened that it didn't. And the bookies had already paid out, so certain were they, that Labour was going to win. So that's a little bit of a sage, a bit of advice that we need to give ourselves in terms of predicting what will happen a week from now.
That said, I think going to your question about whether Dutton should have done more, definitely should have done more. I mean, look, they proposed $21 billion of extra defence spending. They announced that in between, in that period we were talking about before, between Easter and Anzac. It's just sort of dropped without a trace, really, you know. Do you think people would have liked to have heard X number of aeroplanes, X number of tanks, X number of...
Well, I think they would have liked to have heard X number of missiles because it would have been consistent with the more recent... advice of defence experts that that's where the future holds not with more F-35s, for example. But these defence numbers are sort of big and abstract and kind of, in a sense, futuristic as well. This is $21 billion over five years and a whole lot more than that over 10 years.
These are long cycles and, you know, that seems to be what Dutton's operating in, you know, a sort of a 20-year cycle for nuclear, a long cycle for AUKUS, a long cycle for, you know, for this extra money now. I think if they'd come up with a policy that was really well argued, had the costing details in it at the time, even they didn't come out until later in the same day.
And that involved funding it by taking tax cuts that Labor was proposing off people was just strange for a coalition as well. It might have been more persuasive, but I think just generally. A lot of this policy needed to be out there ages ago. I know, for example, and I wrote this last week, that the defence policy, including the quantum of 21 billion... had been told to partner governments by dutton in december of last year or toward the end of last year and yet
It didn't get, you know, if it's so urgent and so structural and so well thought through, why wasn't it in the marketplace then? Why wasn't it put out over the summer? And then they could have been arguing for it for a whole lot of time and really ratcheting up what is supposedly a brand strength of the coalition, which is national security. Can I ask you, big picture as we come to Election Day 2025, how do you think...
Regardless of the result, we'll look back on this election campaign. Well, it does very much depend on the result. If we see the coalition pull one out here and actually, you know... pick up a whole lot of seats that a lot of people thought weren't in play. and sort of get there or get within touching distance of it even, you know, do very well. And I think what we'll see is that the people who had the bad campaign were media and posted.
who just sort of understood it to be going one way when it was going the other way, once again as sort of a disconnect between the ordinary folk and the kind of elites and machinery of politics. So that's I suppose on one extreme. On the other extreme, I think we'll see it as an effective campaign run professionally by a government that played to its strength. that didn't, you know, that sort of played to the opposition's vulnerability.
Take, for example, the four debates. You know, I mentioned before that I don't think we've seen four debates in any federal election before. One of the explanations that was put to me, and I think this resonates, is that Albanese just didn't think Dutton was up to it. Albanese had a confidence that he would resonate better with people than Dutton would, that Dutton would frighten people and whatever.
On the evidence we have so far, that's what happened. So I think you have to look at some of those judgments and think, well, from where it was, in a cost-of-living crisis, high interest rates, you know, a perilous world, a lot of insecurity around, people are unsettled. A government that gets re-elected in that situation has done pretty well. So let's wrap it up. How do you spend election day? Is it work or do you go on?
enjoy the glory of our great democracy in the old-fashioned way voting on Saturday? Well, look, I haven't decided whether I'll try and vote beforehand or not. I'll be on the move a little bit on Saturday, so I might. join roughly half of Australians or whatever it ends up being and vote before then. And, of course, that involves, in Canberra, going to Old Parliament House, which is my favourite building.
in Canberra, and it is for many people. It's a building with such history and stories and atmosphere, and it's a lovely place to exercise your democratic rights.
It's a fair chance I'll vote before then. On election night itself, I'll be like everyone else who follows politics. I'll be watching very closely. I do have to do some media on the night and I have to... turn out um you know it's this great great curse that you have particularly if you work in print media or work for print media as i do from time to time where you have to try and get something before deadline when you haven't really got decisive results you know you just
It's a hard moment for newspapers, elections and all of these things that happen at night, including these recent debates. They're really hard for newspapers because, you know, they have to put the paper to bed, as we say. And they do so before, you know, that usually is sort of 7pm, maybe a late deadline at 9pm or whatever, but we may not know the result then. So I'll be scrambling to try and understand it and watching with a great deal of fascination.
And then I'll be doing some more media the next day. So an election night without a beer or a drop of red. Oh, I don't know about that. Thank you so much. Thank you. Now, how's this for the perfect way to kick off your election night? Join Richard Dennis, Amy Remakis and Ebony Bennett for reaction and analysis on our election night live stream. Tune in on YouTube, Facebook or our website from 5.30pm Australian Eastern Standard Time.
If you're interested in finding out more about energy policy, power sharing governments, Australians' views on Trump and much more, you can find all of our research on our website or you can follow the links in the show notes. This episode was recorded on Tuesday the 29th of April and some things might have changed since the recording. We'd love to hear your thoughts on the show today. You can reach out to us via email.
at australiainstitute.org.au or you can find us on social media. We're at australiainstitute.org.au on Blue Sky and at the Aus AUS Institute on Instagram and Twitter. Our theme music is by Jonathan McPhee from The Pulse and Thrum, with additional music from Blue Dot Sessions. I'm Glenn Connolly. Thanks for listening.