Josine van Noord

Welcome to Focusing Pathways. In June 2023, focusers came together at the Advanced and Certification Weekline in Dublin. It was here that Elaine met Jocene van Noort from Holland. When Elaine realized that Jocene had learned focusing from Martha Stoppert, she decided to record an impromptu interview. Martha Stoppert is renowned for her work on focusing with children. Her book on this topic is listed in the episode notes.

What emerged during the interview, however, was Jocene's incredible personal story of survival. As a very young child during World War II, she spent almost four years in the jungle of Indonesia in a prisoner of war camp. As an adult, focusing helped her to access what was hidden in her body from that childhood experience, and also to forgive those who had held her captive. I imagine that like me, you'll be both astounded and moved by Jocene's story.

I like to talk about Martha because she was a big influence on so many lives. Yeah. I mean she worked for twenty years in a school with difficult children and she learnt focusing to the teachers and to the children. So th the teachers could really do fo focus with the children and they would understand. Yeah. And I met Hamartha in Holland because um I was born in Indonesia and I am a war child. There was a a a world war going on and I was born in that.

And n well, it's not easy of course when you're so small and you end up in prison camp. So I came out and the my the elder generation, my mother and the people of her age, they never wanted to talk about what happened in the prison camps. They wouldn't. They say, Oh yes, of course it wasn't very pleasant but they wouldn't talk about it. So but I was I was very small. I was a baby when I went in and I wanted to know why I had certain anxieties. Why? Why am I afraid or of this or that? And then

Somebody said to me, Why don't you do regression therapy? And the gr regression therapy was The therapist was Martha because she also did regression. She was a children's uh uh uh what you call it, ther therapist. and she did regression therapy. So I was on her couch for mm half a year. And I went back to prison camp and I got these images because you can have images from about three when you are three year olds three years old, you can have images. And that wasn't very pleasant.

And so m and then afterwards Martha said, I think we have had all the bad stuff now. So why don't you start focusing? And that's how I started, because of her. Mm-hmm.

And she took me to her course and I decided I like it and focusing is going back to your in your memory, but not what is in your head, but what's what's left in your body of things you remember. And that worked for me. I I went inside, like you like she taught me. And she was very strict. I mean when I started, uh, you know, sort of in a laughing way, telling stuff like, Oh yes, uh of course it wasn't pleasant like my like the elder generation, she said, Why are you laughing?

There's nothing to laugh about. I still remember that, you know. And she she put me on a video and she said, Look at you. You are laughing all the time while you're telling terrible things And I said well then I realized that it was the other generation that used to sell things like that. And I didn't. I didn't want that. I wanted to to be serious about it. So

Then I started focusing. That's how I started. Well and I really I I thought it was wonderful because your body m remembers things that your your mind Your mind thinks you remember things, but it's completely different from what your body remembers. And that was fascinating. I've seen so many people really when they started focusing being quite surprised because they didn't know that they knew. You know what I mean? Yeah. And uh I've seen the most

incredible results really. But people that in war situations too because I I feel drawn to people in war situations because I want to help them and I want to tell them you don't have to stay in this situation. You can get out. Yeah. And Of course there are many more ways, I suppose, but focusing is a good way for me and for many more. Thousands of people are focusing and I've been focusing for instance with traumatized Hungarians. They had a revolution, the com against the communism. Uh

Really. I mean, we cried together about you could see the the holes of the executions in the streets, you know, in the walls of the houses. You could see it. And then I went to a conference um and there were Japanese and we were Japanese prisoners. Mm-hmm.

uh in at the time and it really was a long time, almost four years we were put behind in the jungle of Indonesia where I was born, behind wa barbed wire and we couldn't get out and we were starving and w they were beating the women and uh you know, we had no food and t terrible situation. And then I went to a focusing workshop and so I was taught The Japanese had

Evil. Evil. You know. Yeah. And I went to a focusing workshop and um there were Japanese people in it. And I thought, Oh God Yeah. You know, because I was taught, you know, you don't buy Japanese stuff, you don't do anything with them. So I I I just stayed away from the Japanese for two days. And then I realized

f especially one of them, a l a lady, and she was a Buddhist lady, she told me later. And then then I realized how very nice she was. And I threw it all overboard. All the of the old generation. I just thought, okay, it worked for you, it doesn't work for me. I want to know why I am afraid of certain things. So I'm I'm going to do it differently.

Well, yeah, it's it's normal for uh for young people to do that, isn't it? Yeah yeah differently from the parents. So I never talked uh with my mother about it. No, I didn't I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I mean she she has tr struggled so hard. to get us through the prison camp that I m many babies of my age died. So she struggled so hard I didn't want to make it difficult for her.

Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. And and was it like a bodily sensation of letting it all go or what did you also need to it was

physical and it was in my mind too. Okay. Yeah. Yes. It was both and I I just walked up to her to this Japanese lady and I focused with her and something sad came up. for her too and I realized she had problem with s something else because after the war the Japanese were bombed with an uh um you know you call them HM bombs the the the the really heavy ones.

The the bomb. Oh yeah. You know what what you call them? I'm trying to think. Okay. Well anyway. Yeah, I know the I know what you're talking about. Nagasaki and those those places. They were bombed and so the the Japanese that I was talking to, they had lost their grandparents that way. And we cried together. We did. Wow. Because you know, of uh the craziness of war and how I I lost my whole childhood in it and and they lost their grandparents and and so we became friends. And I went to J Japan.

And I focused with them of course, but I I was invited. to um to the what's it called? The Japanese mm center. And it was near the Fujiama, the big mountain there. and they invited me to go with them to the what is it called? Anyway, um And they said, Well, we have a sort of tub downstairs or hot water, hot water tub. And it's with water from the mountain, from the Fujiyama spri uh w I don't know what you call it. And um they said, We would like you to come with us. So I did.

Everywhere I'm sort of cellar nice, but cellar stony. Room with a stream go going through it. And they put me on a wooden stall and I had to undress completely. So I thought, Okay, okay, you know, I I'm in the Japan so okay, I'll do what they say. So I sat there stuck naked and and they started washing me. Oh wow. Washing my hair even. Oh, okay. They washed me all over, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then they went mi with me into the hot spring wow thing.

So uh y well, you can't stay mad at people that are so sweet. And they gave me a kimono and they tried they tried everything they could think of to m make the war uh you know, make it up for the war. So y there's incr in I've I have really good friends and you know what? I wrote about this and I said they had a sort of toughness of going on with the the bombing, etcetera, you know, right after the war.

And they had a sort of atom bomb, you call it atom atom bomb. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's an atom bomb. It's an atom bomb. Yeah. Anyway, they had a sort of toughness of surviving that I recognize. Okay. Yes, we had that in common because I had to survive and they had to survive. Right. And we became real friends and they still visit me. I still keep in touch with them.

Wow. And then that's not w about Martha, but that's just what focusing did for me. Yeah. But there was but it means real healing. Like it was healing. What really struck me there was when you re when you cried together. Yes, we did. It's real.

Yeah, there must have been incredible healing in that and yes. Almost like that washing uh of uh washing away of of all of that and uh And like that even that resonating, you know, like that n you knowing what they went through and they knowing what you went through, just something When it resonates together it just transforms, doesn't it? It it changes and uh It certainly did. It really did. Wow.

So that's all because of Marta. Because Marta dragged me dragged me into focusing. Into focusing, yeah. The funny thing is I have two beautiful daughters and they all of they saw what was happening to me and they asked me, Oh, maybe we should follow a course. Of course not with me, you can't do it with your own mother. Because if you know people too well with focusing you start filling in if you know what I mean. Yeah. You know them and you just have your Yeah.

with somebody that Yeah,'cause you you feel like you know what's wrong. Yeah. Even so uh it rather than trusting their process. Yes. You feel like in interrupting it or or kind of uh Yeah. Helping I guess. Yeah, you fill it. You fill in, that's the word. You do, yeah. You fill it in. Yeah. So Marcha Marcha didn't do it and from then then on we became friends. Mm-hmm.

and I admired her and she was so she was a really tough lady. Even maybe I shouldn't say this, but I I'm not sure. But I w sh I saw her in her coffin. Yeah. And she looked so f you know very white but She looks so strong. Right. Can you imagine? Yeah. Somebody in a coffin looking strong. Wow. Yeah. And she did. And I I I just thought She she really embodied it so yeah, yeah. Yes, she did. Wow. Yeah. She and then I tr I'm trying to find the poem because if you read the poem of of Rob

you you will understand because he felt exactly the same about Marta. You know. He wa he admired her too. Yeah. And she she wasn't a sweet uh lady. She wasn't. You know, she was tough. Yeah. She needed to be. I guess so, because working with with children that are not easy. Yeah. Twenty years. That's a long time. Yeah. And she's a good teacher and I'm still seeing a friend of hers and we won't talk about Martha, how how how special she was. Especially but since she wasn't so

She wasn't really sweet, you know. Not a like I see many sweet f uh f uh focuses here. Yeah. And I almost feel homesick for Marta with a tough attitude. You need some of that. I need it. No. Well that's about what I I can tell about Martha. I could tell more because she was uh older than me. And she was four years old in the war. In Holland she lived. I lived in Indonesia, but she was a little older, so she was four years old.

And they had people, how do you call that? Like uh that w had not had to be underground. uh Jewish people or or uh people in the resistance. And they were hidden in her house. And she said, I still remember my parents being worried that when the Germans came to look for those people

At least they didn't know that there were people there, but they well, they looked everywhere. Yeah. And then she said, I still remember that being four years old I was so don't don't talk don't talk about it, you know. So her parents were very worried that she might just say something as because she was so small. So, you know, she had been in the war too in uh as a child.

A little older. I'm grateful that I was a baby only. Yeah. Because I I many things my mother said I never told you we were in special circumstances. I never did that. because i you I couldn't make you worry about something that you didn't know. You didn't know normal life. I was so small when I went in. She said, You didn't know. Yeah. After the war she said to me, um uh put this put this cup in the cupboards. And I said, What is a cupboard?

I'd never seen a cupboard. I was five years old. Okay, yeah. So I mean I d so many things. I'd never realised living in a normal in a house. I didn't know we lived in barracks behind wiped wire in the jungle. We never kn I didn't know about normal things.

So I had uh to learn all that. That's why I'm so bad with computers. I tell people, you know, I've had to learn so many things that were normal to other children. I I I just don't wanna spent energy on this and w on my old age. I d I'm not going to do that. Yeah, that must have been an incredible like I like could you can you remember a little bit more about that that experience of m of change so when you're so young, like to to know one way of life and then having to

kind of rediscover how to live all over again. I was lucky because when I was five years old the Indonesians w we came out of prison t camp and we were put with God knows how many families in one house. Then the the Indonesians started murdering us. It was really true. Oh wow. So there were b gangs of young Indonesians and they tried to murder every European that they saw on their way and they were running through the street. and it was really scary.

So I was m I I remember being scared of them. Yeah. That's just so strange. Not s not so much of the Japanese. Okay. But I was more scared. I was older. Yes. I was five. And I I remember th those gangs of youngsters g running through the street. you know, with li those kn li enormous knives and Bamboo spares and whatever. So we had to go and my mother found a way of flying in an old

Very old aeroplane. Whoa. It wasn't a normal aeroplane. Yeah. It was the uh how'd you call it a bomber. Right, so there were no windows. Yes, yes. We would just sit on the floor, you know. And uh so that plane brought us to Bangkok. Okay. And Bangkok was paradise to me. Yeah. The people were nice. Yeah. And they were friendly. And the food I can't explain that. Yeah. After four years of hunger. Yes, yeah. That food. It's I

I smelled it in the streets. I there was food everywhere. Yeah. And I that was the best year of my childhood. Wow. Because afterwards we had to go to Holland. I had to go to school. Not that I wanted, but I I had to and I came in Holland in the winter with clothes from other people because we didn't have winter clothes. We had nothing. Mm-hmm. Everything was

taken away. Yeah, yeah. So we didn't have anything. So I had to s wear, you know, woolen dresses and shoes. I'd never worn shoes. You know, with with y it was terrible. Yeah. I I felt very uncomfortable. And then we came into this Country I've made several paintings of this and um we came to a country. I don't I remember that we we on an enormous boat were all filled with refugees from Indonesia, d European Jeff refugees. And I remember

We were all outside because they said, this is Holland, this is Holland. And I thought, okay, okay, where? Because I had a good year in Bangkok, but we didn't want to live there really. But I thought, okay, okay. And I looked. And there was nothing because the canal going to Amsterdam it it is higher than the country. The country is lower than the canal. Yeah. And I looked around, this grey cold land and I thought, Where is the land? Because it was down there, you know.

That was crazy too. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I I couldn't find the lens. Yeah. I only and the seagulls. I s I remember the seagulls. I made a painting of that. But I mean, there were so many different things going on. And in in Holland after the war They were not interested in refugees at all, also, because bespoke dad. Okay so we didn't have the problem that refugees now have. Yes. But I mean I worked in a refugee camp because I feel connected to them. Yeah. And um but we we

we had a horrible time. It it was incredible. Holland I was w getting used to Bangkok and the flowers and the fruits and the trees you know and the canals and food and and then you you come to a grey country that's really cold and you have to wear itchy. itchy wooden things, you know, and shoes on your feet and it was horrible. So uh I took it took quite a while to get used to that.

Well so you know, that's one story. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and in terms of like, you know, when you found focusing, did you find a lot of those like memories even even though you you know, as even as a baby? You know the way the body remembers things. Did you find that they came up what you were ha didn't have like an actual story to go with it or I didn't have actual memory but while while well I'm I'm sort of mixed up about your Greek

regression and the focusing, yeah. One went over into the other, you know. So but Um I was really surprised that I got such clear images. That's why I painted it. Okay. I I was so certain about cer some things, you know? Yeah. And I was surprised because yeah, when I started focusing I was a mother of two children and uh grown up uh whatever, um somewhere in my late thirties or something. Yeah. But I could remember things through regression and focusing. I don't know the exact

difference at in that in those days. But anyway, I was surprised. I could see the I could even see a Japanese soldier uh it was a Korean soldier. you know, with the with a gun, etcetera. And so I could even remember that. And I didn't know, I knew. Okay. Yeah, it's day it was there. Yes. Yeah. It's it's crazy. And my husband too. He wa he he learned focusing and he didn't want to but he thought that gentlin and he talked to gentlin and he thought he was so interesting. Yeah.

So he he did four four focusing sessions or five with Marta. Okay. And uh He said he came home and he was so surprised because he was in his forties and he remembered a terrible experience when he was six and And he he was I s I could still see him coming in the he said, I didn't know I didn't know I knew that. Yeah, yeah. You know? And and it just came up through focusing. Wow. Yeah, and he was Jewish, half Jew, half Jewish. And uh so he had a horrible

childhood as well. I mean yeah too like Anne Frank he had to go from one place in hiding, etcetera. Yes. And so we we never really We never talked about that part because he could he was of the Other generation of the elder generation, he couldn't talk about it.

Okay, yeah. But through Mata and focusing I learned to just be free and talk about it and you know, go to Japan and have a have a good time really. Yeah. And so yeah, I felt I felt so free. and I had a girlfriend who didn't want to do that sort of thing. And you know, she was still so bitter. Mm-hmm. She was bitter about the war and yeah. And I had my Japanese friends. I wasn't bitter. Why could I? I couldn't be bitter for for such nice people.

I couldn't. So that's you know it's refocusing that to me. It it's incredible because I I've heard it saying like once that um you know, like you can hold on to things or and you can tell yourself to let it go, but it might not be ready to let go of you and when you focus on it and hold it and give it the space it can just change and You it's not like you're you're mentally telling yourself to get over it. No, you're good. But you just it's a feeling and it's a sense.

Yes. Yeah. You you can't command yourself to get over it. No. The focusing is a way to I don't know, maybe there there are other ways, I'm not sure. Yeah. But as now I know that focusing is a way. Of of you know, the things that you have hidden somewhere in your body. Yeah, yeah. And and then the beauty about it is that you don't try to make yourself do anything. No it's just no you don't. It's what it is is what it is and you don't

have to force yourself and yes you might get the you know, that lovely letting go but you it's the non expectation of having that yeah uh really helps uh doesn't it? And did you find that help when you first encountered the the Japanese ladies on on the focusing course. The just um focusing in itself, I guess. to deal with the first interaction I guess. Well I I know the Japanese are easily shamed.

So I did a whole week of workshop without telling them. Okay. There was another d a different one. The first one with this Japanese lady and I took her home and never told her about the Japanese prison camp. I didn't. Yeah. Because I I thought she was so nice and I I knew she was going to feel very much ashamed. So I didn't talk about it.

Well I wa it was some sort of experiment of myself, you know, if I I I f I thought I am right, I'm right, she is okay, she can't help it and later on of course I told her. Yeah. But I didn't in the beginning because I wasn't quite sure. And then I met three Japanese ladies in in also in Ireland. We were staying in focusing workshop. And the whole week I shut up about it because I didn't want to embarrass them.

And then at the end of the week they said, How was this focusing workshop? etc. Everybody had comments. Well, this is kind of different for me because I I come from Japanese prison camp. And they were so shocked, you know. And then they stood up and we embraced and we cried together. And later on but there was a Japanese man that I focused with. I still remember in Costa Rica. And I started he started focusing and I looked at him. He eyes shut.

And I thought, if only my mother could see me now You know, yeah. I'm focusing with a Japanese man. Yeah. You know, that's even different than from the women. So now it's it's incredible what what what a person can do with himself if you're open to it. It's incredible. And this friend of mine, she she never got over it. She was still she died, she is dead now. And uh she died and And she she was still, you know, angry. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm not. And I'm so thankful for that. Yeah.

Yes. It lives much easier. Yeah. Something struck me there when you said that you were focusing with a Japanese man and it's like the sense of focusing in a partnership is such a safe space. Yes. To have the actual feel safe in in with with um with something that was a threat before or ha caused anger or something like that must have been like a hu a huge transformation for you, was it, or did did it feel like, oh this is, you know this is right or or how you know, how did you feel?

when you realised what you were doing, I guess. Yeah, it was incredible. You know, I I remember usually I shut my eyes when I'm focusing, but I couldn't keep from just looking at him for a short very very short while because I thought, gee And you you my mother wouldn't believe this. Me sitting opposite a Japanese man. Yeah. I mean, she had such bad experiences with them.

Poor thing. And I understood that. And the fact that she doesn't didn't want to talk about it, I understood that. Yeah. I respected that. Yeah. The elder generation couldn't couldn't talk about it. It was too too bad. So but I d I don't need to be like that that that generation. Yeah. So you know I've I found a new way. And I hope that's that yeah, I my daughters learned focusing. They're grown up now. Yeah. But I think it it

it gives you a a a way of well, to put it simply, uh to see things differently. Yeah. Anyway, so m I don't think I have more to tell you I guess. Uh how did it you know, did you use fo after you learnt it yourself, did you teach it did you use it in your work and stuff like that? What did you what did you actually what did you do for a living? Well, of course I focused uh w during I went to almost every year I went to one of the international deal focusing things. Okay, yeah.

And I've been all over the world. I'm very grateful for that. I've been to to Costa Rica, to Japan, to United States, to Iceland even. So the focus are all focuses are all over the world. It's very interesting. Yeah. And uh what did you say? I forgot that's a question. What did you do for for work or did you Oh, I put up a cultural information centrum for the municipality of Amsterdam. Right, okay. And did you integrate focusing a little bit into your work or?

Oh no, not in my w I'm not easily offended, let me say that, because I know how many possibilities there are. No, not in my work, but I I really could help people sometimes. And you know, I've helped an old man. It was seventy four. We I I I've always lived in artistic surrounding, you know. I know painters and actors and musicians and uh so I'm I'm living in that kind of world. Lovely. And um

uh um this guy was sitting a at the artist club and drinking and I knew he was drinking too much of course. He was uh divorced and uh So I made a f I made a joke. I said to him, uh, Well, uh are you going uh nicely? Yeah. And he knew I didn't mean it I didn't mean it unkind. I just I just m mocked with it. And then I said, Well, you could try to focus, you know, after some conversation. And he didn't react, so I thought, Okay, I've told it and that's it.

Then well I think two weeks later he called me. He said, I want to know more about focusing. Wow. Yeah. I said, okay, you come to my place and um and we focus. And he didn't say a word. Oh okay. But I thought of Jean Gentlin. I had seen him. Yeah. Not saying anything. I've seen it. Yeah. He was sitting on stage, you know, demonstrating with this lady from Africa and she wouldn't

react at all. She was very busy focusing, but she wouldn't talk. And I remembered that. So I thought, okay, if you don't want to talk, you don't talk. And he stayed for one and a half hour. Focusing and not talking. But I could see he was working with himself. I could see it. But I d I didn't dare to interrupt him. And uh so I said, Well if if you're you think you're

Yeah, if if you if you want to stop, you thank yourself. That's what you do with focusing. You don't thank the therapy. Yes. You think yourself because you do the work. And um Then he said, oh yes, thank you, and he went away. I've never known what he was doing. And then later on he called again.

I I focused with him, same thing, hour. He took it it took him an hour, never talking never mentioning anything. I just said well if you do this and you do relax and now you know the whole the whole thing. And he said He never said anything, and afterwards thank you and bye bye, And then he changed his whole life and he was seventy four years old. Oh wow. He c he said, I owe I I just asked him I said, Are you okay now? He said, Well, I always thought I'm so old, I'm divorced and I can only

either drink myself to death or sit behind the geraniums we call it, sit you know, in a nursing home and I don't want that. Yeah. He lived on a boat in in the canals in Amsterdam. And uh he said, And I've discovered another way and he got a nice girlfriend of his own age. Yeah. He changed his whole life and I never knew what he was focusing on. Yeah. And I never tried to get to know it. I know I just

I thought, Okay, it works. Yeah. Let it be, let it be, let it be. You know. I didn't want to interrupt him, so I did And we're still friends. He just called me before I left for Ireland. And uh'cause he invited me for his birthday. And I've so I have focused twice with him, w more than an hour. Yeah. Complete silence. At least I I dis I said to him, Well, uh why don't you got this and that, you know, the six steps?

And uh he never reacted. Yeah. And then he changed his life. And I will never know why, but I I don't need to. Yeah. It's not my problem. Mm-hmm. I mean I tried what I could And I've had things like that happen before. before, you know, also with a young guy who didn't want to live anymore. And I called Marta, I said, Marta, Marta, how do I? Marta, stop it, you know, she was my help. And I said, Well, and then she said, just with the steps and, you know, and it worked.

Incredible. He didn't want to go to psychotherapy this boy this man. It was a tall guy. Yeah. And he didn't want to do psychotherapy. And I I told him, I said, I'm not a psychotherapist. I can only focus. And he said it's okay, I don't want to go to therapy. And so I worked I only did twice with him t or three times maybe. But anyway I mean he picked up his life again. Well so I can do things with it. Well you can do things with it by just sticking to the

To the basic rules, don't you? Yeah, yeah. Well you do it too, I guess. Yes I do, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's something about not having to know That's so nice, isn't it? A therapist wants to know. Yeah. But you're not a therapist. You don't have to know. No, you just have to be there. Yes, yes. Yeah. Just follow the steps.

and see what happens. And you don't have to know anything about other people's problems. No. That is so nice but it's nice to see a trans transformation. You have had that too of course. Yeah. I mean I I I still remember this. And she started moving her shoulder all the time. And you can say something about that, you know that of course. You can say, I can see you're moving your shoulder. Yeah. Not not more, but that you can do. Yeah.

And s she didn't answer. I don't have to I don't need an answer. And then she said I said, My whole family is pushing me, is pushing me, uh my husband, my son And I j repeated that as I have learned from Thufo. I saw your whole family is pushing you. And then she kept her shoulder still. And she started smiling. And I I said, You're smiling. Yeah. You m you may do that. Yeah. That's so good of me that I can do this. I can do this. They can push me and I can take it.

And she was so h she was all happy about herself, you know. Yeah. So it's it's incredible what focusing can do I think. Yeah, it's a it's amazing those light bulb moments after holding it for a while. What comes, you know, just Space and patience and yeah. Yeah. Well you you've learned it too. If I see your your your t your sense of humor and your patience. And that's that's one of the Very important. It's a big part. Yes. Very big part. Yes, you need that. Yeah. Because I've um so that's it.

So um just r just uh before we finish up, how um Like what was what was the first time meeting Jean? Like, you know, uh had you known much had you known a lot about focusing and known all about it before you met Jean? Or just a little bit? No, just a bit for Marta. I I did one course with uh with with several three people or something. And I got I go I got really ill and um I've had cancer. So um I we we uh she said, why don't you come follow a course?

Yeah. That's how I started. Right, okay. With these other ladies. Yeah. And um there were no men at that time. And so uh yeah. You know, she learned me when you have an illness, I've that's what Marta told me too. You just go to the to the place where the illness is in your body. Yeah. I mean if you have cancer you think oh no, no. I don't want cancer. Yeah. And then Uh if you can take yourself by the hand and say, okay, okay, this place, your worry is worried, this place is worried.

And you know, you just be kind to it. And I learned to be kind to it and I survived and it wasn't a bad Yeah. I was stage three, they call it. And I I cured myself somehow. Wow. Yeah. And it's twenty almost tw mu more than twenty years ago. Incredible. So yeah I'm still there. Yeah. Yeah. We're all delighted you're here and here with us in Ireland. It's so lovely to have you here. An honor to have met you. I'm so excited and

So I suppose before we finish off, is there anything that you feel like I I want to s I I really want to send you the poem that Rob Roscoff wrote about Marta. And I because it's exactly what Marta was. How she worked with children. Yeah. A very tough lady. She would go for you. She would go for you. She did. She really She d she climbed uh once she climbed on top of me. Okay. And she said, Why the you're laughing? Why are you laughing? you know, like that. Okay. And then I see all this soft

Yay and then I think okay, okay. They're nice, they're nice, they're nice. But it's not what I what I did with focusing. It was really tough. It was really tough. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like smiling all the time. No. Okay, yeah, yeah. So I have a problem shutting up. I'm delighted. You are? Yeah, yeah, amazing. It was amazing to to talk to you and uh to get to know Martha a bit more through you which is incredible. Um if so um it's amazing to

get a sense of her. Yeah. Um, just by listening to your stories and Yeah, but she she came out of the war too. She was also a child in the war. So she knows that life is not so easy. Can cannot be so easy. Yeah. I mean, of course it can be easy too. But you know what I mean. She knew how how

How unexpected life can be. Yeah. Well this is it because I I'm speaking English all the time. Yeah. And not speaking in my native language. Yes, yeah, no. So it's I'm sort of tired now. Yeah, of course. Thank you.

The morning after her chat, Jocine received the poem Martha, that one that she wanted to share earlier, the one that was written for Martha Stafford by Rob Foxcroft. Jocine shared his beautiful poem at breakfast and it brought a tear to many people's eyes, especially those who remembered Martha. This poem can be found in Rob's book Feeling Heard Hearing Others Page one hundred five four. That evening we got a chance to record Jocene reciting this poem. So here it is now.

Martha by Rob Foxcroft for my special friend Martha Stapert The Focusing Lady uh children with a problem for twenty years and she started focusing with children in Holland. I think it wasn't wasn't it didn't start anywhere else. I think she really started it for the first time for anybody. Anyway. I hate teachers. I hate school. My teacher said ridiculous, and I felt a fool. The kids all hate me. They call me jelly. Little Miss Fat with a great big belly.

They were horrible. They don't know how it felt. Dad said, Don't be stupid, and he hit me with his belt. Marta came to school. And she sat quite near. I was scared,'cause it felt dead queer. She asked What's the matter? And I said I'm fat. She pointed to my tummy and she said there that Can you feel it inside? And I said, Yes, it's a great lump of jelly and an unhappy mass. I started to cry, but Marta said, Draw. I took a black crayon into my paw.

I don't know how to draw, so I just went scribble, and something paid attention down there in my middle. I filled all the paper with a big black sad. I was hurt by all the children and the teacher and dad. Maita smiled gently. She asked Is there more? I screwed up the paper and threw it on the floor. I tried to draw a flower, and it wasn't quite right, but I gave it to Marta, and she held it tight. I'll keep this forever, she said as she smiled and

I think she is an angel, and I am just a child. The rain stopped falling and the sun began to shine, and I'll always know that Marta is a friend of mine. April two thousand. Nein.