244: You're Holding It Wrong

Welcome to Focus, a productivity podcast about more than just cranking widgets. I'm David Sparks and joined by my co-host, Mr. Mike Schmitz. Hello, Mike. Hey, David. How's it going? Excellent. Here looking at your happy mug in the morning, ready to record another episode of the Focus Podcast. That's right. We've got video. I'm not sure if we're testing this.

We're using Riverside to record this episode, and hopefully we'll have a YouTube channel we can publish these to. Well, now that we've said it, I think we have to. So we'll have a link in the notes. Hopefully you can go and watch the show by video if you want. This isn't for everybody. I get it. But I know there's a lot of people on YouTube that like to watch podcasts. If that's you, we now have an option for you. And so there we go.

So this episode, we're going to be talking about feedback. We've got a full feedback bucket here we're going to be going through. But we've got a couple things to talk about first. Yeah, it's holiday gift time. There's the relay gift membership, which I heard you and Steven talk about on MPU. Figured we should probably mention that here on focused as well. So if you want to save 20% on a relay membership and support your favorite.

independent podcasts, you can go to giverelay.com and you can either get this for yourself or for somebody that you know who would like some podcast goodness in there. their headphones during their commute while they're at the gym, that sort of thing. Or if you have those people in your life who are always asking you what you want and you have no idea what to tell them, now you can tell them that you'd like a Relay subscription.

Yeah, gang, you get the ad-free extended version of the Focus podcast every week. Well, every two weeks, actually. Also, another great gift idea this year is the Focus calendar. It's not too late to get your focus calendar, get a nice big one, stick it up on the wall behind you. It's very convenient when you're setting up your plan for the year. When somebody calls you, ask you to do something.

take a look at your big wall calendar and it will tell you exactly how much time you have we have modified this over the years to to really hone in on the ideal version of a wall calendar. We're working with, I think, the best vendor in the business, Jesse, who puts these together for us. One of the nice things about this calendar is that it's linear. It goes straight through.

months quarters and get the whole thing in one nice view and I love having mine and you will love having yours also makes a great gift I got one for my wife because she is One of her jobs, I don't know if I'm supposed to say this, she helps make the maps at Disneyland. But they plan those things out months in advance, and a big focus calendar on her wall in her office is very handy for that.

Nice. Yeah, I always buy multiples. We have one hanging upstairs. I have one in my office. I just got them both back from FedEx where I got them mounted on the foam core. So I've got mine. on the wall already with all of the trips that i'm going to take next year yeah they remember me now because i go in every year and they're like i bring it in like oh yeah i remember you you did this last year yeah that's me

Yeah, for some reason, every time I bring it in, they're like, well, I don't know if we have anything that big. And I'm like, you do. You did this for me last year. Yeah. Well, check it out. We got a link in the show notes, Focus Calendar, something Mike and I are both proud of. We love. And this is the time of the year to get a calendar.

So do you just want to dig in on all this feedback, Mike? Let's do it. Okay. First we heard from Michael and he says, are there any productivity tools or workflows we've discussed? that you actually implemented in your own life. And I wrote Mike back. I'm like, we implement all this stuff, Mike. I mean, this is not a hypothetical show. But yeah, there's...

Most of the stuff we talk about, we test and some of it sticks with us and some of it doesn't. But honestly, by the time something gets on the show, it usually is something that one or both of us has implemented. Yeah, we're at least experimenting with it. It's not something that we just talk about conceptually. We at least do try the techniques and the things that we talk about. I will say that...

There are a lot of things that I tend to get excited about in the moment, and that really is a poor indication of whether it will actually stick three to six months from now. One of the things that... happened uh recently was uh the plus minus next for and laura the kumpf she talked about in her tiny experiments book i got real excited about that idea and i still do it

Kind of. But if you were to ask me, do you implement it? Do you not implement it? I don't think I could in good conscience say, oh yeah, I totally do that still. But when we talked about it, I was like, oh, this is the thing. It's finally working. Well, the shiny wore off. It's not sticking as well as I thought it would. Yeah, I never actually never even experimented with that. I just didn't because I kind of have a system for the way I'm reflective.

And I do so much reflection. I don't need any more. But I was thinking like one of those that didn't stick for me was we talked at one point this year about the timer clock. I forget the name of it, but they're on Amazon. They're very visual and you can put it on your desk. And it's like a countdown clock when you're setting your blocks or timers, which I do all the time. But I found I just never used it because I just used the one on my phone or my Apple Watch.

And I just never used it. And my daughter, who's a teacher, said, hey, do you need that? And I'm like, nope. And she took it to school. Because with students, even high school students, a timer is a good thing. And so she took it. There have been some things that have kind of disappeared that way for me over the year. Any new stuff you picked up this year that's just really stuck with you? That I picked up this year.

I don't know. I was thinking about the thing that probably stuck with me the most was the whole idea of time blocking. I mean, I do that every... Every single day. And I even built my own custom time blocking planner to go along with it. So I don't know if I have one this year that stands out to me anyways. How about you?

The last couple months, I've been using the field notes in lieu of the note cards, the Edmark note cards. And the reason is because it just goes in my pocket so easily. And I kind of like laying out the beginning of the week each day. And then, you know, we talked about this in a recent episode, kind of that last mile of your task list is writing it down. And this feels to me like it's sticking. This is the third book now I've filled up doing this.

That's kind of a new one that I didn't know if it would stick or not, but I think it will. Nice. All right. Robert wrote in, do you prefer episodes that are more philosophical about focus and productivity or more tactical? With specific systems and tools. Yes. Yeah. I like both of them. They are very different. I'd be kind of curious what the listeners prefer, because I think...

One of the things that is different about Focused is we talk about the philosophical stuff as the why behind the things that we do and the tools that we implement.

But a lot of productivity advice is very tactical, life hacky. And there's probably a reason for that. People are busy. So I could see a... an argument to be made for just tell me what to do I'll try it and see if it sticks but I really don't want to feed that machine I would much rather instead of just helping people crank more widgets

help them be a little bit more intentional and follow through on the things that are really important. So I think they're both essential to this show for me, but probably I enjoy talking a little bit more about the... philosophical stuff and the why behind the the things that we do yeah i i have a definite answer here and i enjoy the philosophical i i think that people need to have a

foundational motivation to do this stuff right. And while it's great, you know, to do the tips and tricks stuff, the life hacks. I don't think that gets you very far. And in some ways it can be counterproductive because if you get really good at life hacks, but you're not pointing your ship in the right direction, you're just efficiently going in the wrong direction.

So I really strongly believe that if you want to be serious about, you know, getting the most from your life, you got to figure out what that means for you and what are the things that you need to pursue for that and then do that efficiently. I don't want to talk about just the philosophical here because you're right. I think there are tips and tricks and hints that can help people kind of get going and motivated on obvious wins. But I think underlying all of this.

You really need to figure out the tough questions. And I say that from someone who didn't do that for a long time. I mean, I still think about this because I was at that law firm for... 30 years almost. Well, I was at the law firm for like 24 years and I was a lawyer for 30 years. But from about, like I had real purpose getting through school, started my career as a lawyer.

And I got into the muck, you know, of like going to trial, doing my cases, trying to be a dad, you know, just keeping up with the day-to-day stuff. And I wasn't thinking about the big picture stuff. And I knew in the back of my mind I needed to. And from like 25 to like 40, I just didn't bother. You know what I mean? Because I didn't really have a framework to figure out how to do it.

i didn't want to figure it out myself i mean this is kind of before the internet and the you know everybody had advice for you so i had that you'd have to figure it out yourself and and i just found it easier just to not and man to me those are like That's like a decade and a half that's kind of lost. So I guess that's a very long answer. But the philosophical, I think, is important. And we're going to continue to talk about that. But yeah, we'll get tips and tricks and life hacks in there, too.

Yeah, let me throw another episode type in there, which is the guest episodes. I think those might be my favorite because I always get inspired hearing how other people are.

trying to trying to wrestle with this stuff and the things that that they've done and even the last episode with uh with tom gibson you know that we talked about journaling we talked about planning things that we have discussed so many times but then you get somebody new on the show and they talk about it and they talk about it a different way they bring a different perspective to it and it's like oh i didn't think about it from that angle i could totally do that you know and then uh it

That's the stuff that really ends up making the big difference, those little things that you implement. And usually getting inspired by seeing somebody else do it, that's the trigger for me. And one of the things I like about the guest episodes is, I mean, I think one of the points Mike and I try to say repeatedly, we don't have all the answers. I mean, the reason is because so many of these productivity gurus tell you they have all the answers.

They don't. I mean, I've worked with some of them, but I can guarantee you they really don't have it together. I think that hearing from other people that are making the soup with different flavors and ingredients and seasoning.

Just lets you know that we all got to make our own soup, you know, and we're all on this journey. So I really like that about the guest episodes. It's like they may have a different take on something that really works for them. And while it may not work for me, you know, it may work.

for an audience member i i was just talking to a listener who is really into the plus minus next and it's because you talked about mike and i think for a lot of people you know you got to find the pieces that work for you and and pull it together and you got to keep experimenting so the whole idea with plus minus next by the way i really like that approach and the thing that has caused it not to work for me is i built this

digital system for doing it and then i moved all my planning to the analog planner so i'm actually thinking about putting in a uh a weekly review thing at the end not a strictly plus minus next but i think there's uh

perspective there that's helpful after you've gone through the week of you know what went well what could have gone better and what am i going to do about it so it's my own version of i guess plus minus next but i'm hoping to add that to the personal retreat planner the other thing i wanted to call out here

balancing the difference between philosophical and tactical. I talk a lot about PKM, right? There's a lot of people who use Obsidian because I talk about it. They're in my community. They respond to the YouTube. videos in the comments, things like that. They collect a whole bunch of information. So they've got the philosophical stuff down, but they don't do anything with it. So one of the key... frameworks, my big contribution to the PKM world, I feel like at this point.

is the whole idea of the creativity flywheel and you've collected all this stuff. You have to have an output. You don't have to be an independent creator, but you got to do something with all that.

theory and all that philosophy like it's it's one thing to know how all this stuff fits together but then you actually have to do something with it the rubber has to hit the road at some point yeah and i guess i would pile on to that just to say the philosophical piece of this to me is you have to have an underlying foundational kind of system that you're using to figure out, you know, I think.

you know as i've said before so much of this just comes down to intentionality like can you be intentional on the things that matter and you've got to decide what are the things that matter and how do you become intentional with them you know a lot of times it's based on other people because so much of our human experience is about other people but it's also about like what you want to do with your life in terms of career and non-career part of your life and figure those things out

You know, figure out what really blows your hair back and then figure out how to pursue that while you have time. Yep. Memento Mori. That's right. Lisa wrote in. productivity myths she said pick i know this lisa she's a very clever lady pick one productivity myth that's true and one that's false so mike let's start with the false ones What's your false productivity myth? Oh, man. So what exactly is a productivity myth? I think I did some Googling this morning.

prepping for the show like most common productivity myths and what comes up is the things like get up at 5 a.m because that's how you crush your day and I was looking through the list and I was realizing that there is a lot of nuance to all of these. And I don't think I would label any of them just truly a myth. This does not work. But the framing of this question is a little bit different. So this is, you know, what has.

been true or false and at least that the way i'm interpreting it for yourself right so one of the the productivity myths that is out there is that it is uh and it's it's a myth but there's research behind it whatever i'm just going to say it this way you cannot multitask right that is the standard productivity advice you get you have to focus on one thing at a time

And I'm taking this from the perspective of things that we would say. Because there's the other end of that out there. Well, this is the thing. I don't think anybody is truly saying, multitask, be more productive. At least not the people who understand productivity at all. So the general advice is don't multitask. And I agree with that in theory. However, I found that there is a specific way that you can multitask.

You cannot switch back and forth and have your focus on two different things. That's context switching doesn't work. That's what people are referring to when they say multitasking. But I think it is possible. to do something that is sort of an automated activity while you are doing one focused activity. So as an example, a lot of times when I get the episodes back from Jim, I listen to the whole episode before I publish it.

I usually listen to that episode while I am at the gym doing a workout. And if I notice something while I'm listening to it, then I'll finish my set, put the stuff down, go back and grab the time code. Hey, we got to fix, you know, this little thing. I can pay attention to the audio that is being played in my ears while I'm doing something with my hands. It doesn't have to be a gym. It could be yard work, whatever. So I think that's the.

The thing that came to mind was talking about the productivity myths, and I would say that that one is false, at least with an asterisk. Yeah. I struggle with the idea of a myth, too. But one that you hear often from the productivity gurus is like, just follow my 10-step system and you can do it all. That statement, you can do it all, I feel like is definitely a myth.

that people use to sell products and i think the whole point of this stuff is to accept that you can't do it all and it's up to you to figure out what you're gonna do I mean, again, this is kind of my last answer, but if you're going to make your dent, you've got to figure out where you're going to put it and put your energy there. And to the extent productivity people are telling you.

that there's some magic system there's some way that you're going to combination of tools and software and and fancy clocks on your desk and sand grain time table turners and whatever that you're going to suddenly become productive and able to do it all then you should run Because that's just not the case. And as soon as you accept that, then it gets a lot easier to make some decisions about what's truly important. Yep. All right. So the ones that are true.

And I'm going to put this as a myth. I think this is totally not a myth, but I've seen enough people push back against this that I think there's at least a narrative out there that it's a myth. And that is that you will get more done. If you plan your day using time blocking, I 100% believe this. And I know people who posted on Reddit or comments on my YouTube videos is like, you don't need to do this.

You totally do. If you want to do more of what matters, you want to be more intentional. This is unavoidable, I think. But I get that people have tried it and it hasn't stuck. And I would say you're holding it wrong. You just haven't found the implementation of this that really works for you. But planning my day is the best.

five minutes in terms of the return on investment that I make every single day. Yeah. And honestly, if you're resistant to it, like I understand people being resistant to it because it feels like you're locking yourself in too hard. things like that but if you struggle with time blocking i would recommend looking at some of the options we talked about the show we talked about a concept earlier this year called soft block scheduling where it's a little softer where

You're just, you know, you're picking topics and hitting those or even just picking the hardest thing you're doing and blocking time for that, but nothing else as a technique just to kind of get yourself rolling. There's a lot of ways to get into this without going full in. um you know hyper scheduling kind of stuff i would also say that if you're struggling with it and you're like giving you're blocking your bathroom breaks and so don't do that you know just

I mean, just to give you an example for me, I was just talking about this in the Max Berkey Labs the other day. My block scheduling is not tied to specific tasks. I'll have like a three-hour block that says labs content or personal. And then I'll just go through my task manager and pick off things in my personal list for two hours. I don't have like a separate block and down to the minute for each little item on it. And that is a...

That is absolutely time blocking and it doesn't need to be harder than that. Yep. Agreed. One, one for me that again, I felt like I struggled with it because I feel like if we believe it, then I'm not sure I can call it a myth. But a practice that I think that is absolutely true related to productivity that I think a lot of people don't think enough about is the idea of reflection.

some sort of regular reflection on what you're doing. And we've heard a lot of different ways people do this. I'm a meditator, but I also do a lot of journaling. But I think finding some way... to check in on yourself every week or month or quarter and look at what you're actually doing versus what you want to be doing. Look at your philosophy and how you're holding up to your philosophy.

that reflective practice the more you do of it the better you get at this stuff and the more enjoyable life gets it's just a it's a huge payoff the resistance to it of course is that it takes time it's like Spend all my day working. I don't want to spend another 20 minutes at the end of the day or another hour on the weekend reflecting on the week. You don't understand. I have TV shows to watch and things to do.

And what I'd say is, okay, but you're really, it's like such, in terms of bang for your buck, it's really hard to beat and figure out a reflective process that can work for you. Give it a test. The other thing about a reflective process, I think the reason it doesn't stick is it actually takes a while to sink. What I like to say to people is you have to have faith for the first six months, and then you'll have evidence after that. Just believe that it will help.

And after six months, you'll see that it helps and then you won't have any trouble doing it. That's a good, good way to put it. This episode of the focus podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

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Kevin has taken us to task and maybe rightfully so here for sabbaticals and break weeks. He says, are you guys for real about sabbaticals? You've been talking about it for years. I don't think either of you have ever done it. do you want to go first on this one no okay i can i will if you want well i i will say i have done this um

So I've done it many times, not as an independent creator, though. So I worked with the Blanc media team, which is where I first came across this idea. I can tell you this works and is amazing. Um, I've got a link I'll put in the show notes where Sean talks through the eight week work schedules. And essentially it's six weeks that we plan for one week, which is a buffer. And then the eighth week, the whole company takes off.

And I can absolutely tell you that this is an implementation of the things that we talk about on this show. If you really want to be more productive and get things done that really matter, this is a great way to do it. It is aspirational to me at this moment. And that is just basically the current season I'm in with the business. So I 100% intend to do this. I am convinced of the effectiveness of this.

feel like I cannot do this right now. I don't have enough margin to create the systems to really do this. It's absolutely something I will... build into the systems of the business. I'm still in scramble mode, though. I don't know. I don't need to get too far into that unless people really want to know about it.

I was going through the forum and I saw someone share about, you know, laying the foundation of the business and how that's going to pay off. Well, I can tell you transparently that has not happened yet. We've got momentum. We're building the YouTube channel. We're building the email list. I'm building the systems to sell LifeHQ, the community.

I put myself in a real tight spot when I walked away from the digital marketing agency that I was working for. I didn't have the runway that I should have. And I've spent. a lot of time since then trying to trying to get to the point that it should have been when i started um i feel like there's light at the end of the tunnel and no it's not a train like there's enough uh

There's enough signal here to know that this is going to work and we're going to keep going, but it's been hard. And even a couple months ago, I was looking for jobs because I was like, I don't know that this is really worth it. We've talked about that in our...

our calls david so i'm hoping this is not a complete surprise to you but just for for other people you know i i just feel like i am not at the place where i can do this and that's one of the trade-offs i have to make because still hustling And I don't want to hustle. I rail against hustle culture. But when you're starting a business, there's certain things you have to do sometimes. And I'm still in one of those seasons. Yeah. But the fact, Mike, that you.

have got to where you are now like in the last year you've made tremendous progress i feel like you're gonna pull it off if it would have crashed and burned i think it probably would have already crashed and burned so I have faith in you. I feel like it's going to happen. Hang in there. But I also get that right now you're just dealing with the patients as they come off the ambulance, and you've got to be there.

I don't have that excuse. I'm doing well enough. My kids are grown. So I probably should have done one by now, Kevin. I had one of those re-burn moments just a couple days ago. Daisy and I went up and we watched. There's a play up here called Peter Pan Goes Wrong. It's very funny. It's like... they do the peter plan play but you know stuff is falling out the lights are falling out of the sets and the it's just really funny but the narrator was kathy rigby

who famously played peter pan like 3 000 times she was an olympic athlete she's a tiny lady but she's a gymnast and she was like the perfect peter pan like when my kids were little we went and saw her do it And she was so good on the cable of flipping and doing everything. But now she's 72. And so she was the narrator through the whole show. And then at the end, she came out and did a bow. I hope I'm not smiling for anybody.

And then they had a cable attached to her, and she just flew over the audience. And she was doing these flips and back spins over us. And it was so uplifting seeing this 72-year-old woman up there. like she was 15 you know and then daisy and i were talking about on the way home and it's like she is like 14 years older than i am right now You know, and I realized, you know, suddenly I never really thought about how close I am to 70, you know. And I thought, oh my gosh, you know, I need to.

you know enjoy my life you know too and not just work all the time and i was thinking about this email from kevin and i'm going to really try I mean, one of the things I did, the reasons I made the changes I did, I took a huge pay cut to do just this max mark stuff. But, you know, it was to improve the quality of my life. And why can't I?

take a couple shop weeks and just play in the wood shop or go up into the mountains or something you know so kevin your your email has inspired me and uh as we get to the year and i'm going to start looking at the calendar for next year and i feel like I don't know why I couldn't just take a couple weeks off. So I'm going to shoot for two in 2026. And next year, I hope I don't report failure. I mean, it's not out of the picture because I'm just not good at doing these things.

But I also feel the, you know, the reaper. And so I do want to go and enjoy myself with stuff like this too. So I am really going to try and do this. I know we've talked about it a lot. Some of our listeners don't like us talking about this stuff because it sounds privileged. It's like, oh yeah, you fancy podcasters. I have a nine to five. I can't just take a week off. And I get that. At the same time, I can if I could.

figure this puzzle out. So I'm going to really shoot for it. Thanks, Kevin, for giving me a kick in the pants. But that first line in the email, I read it, and my heart's like, are you guys for real? Like, oh boy, here we go. Yes, I have tasted and seen the goodness of the sabbatical.

Christopher wrote in, what's the biggest struggle you're facing with focus right now that you haven't adequately addressed? You guys really bring the questions. I wanted to say that straight to the heart. What's yours, Mike? What are you struggling with right now? I think the thing I'm struggling with is the boundaries and the shutdown routine specifically. It's on my calendar. It gets time blocked.

It never happens because I've got more to do than I have hours in the day and I'm the only one doing it. You know, I have the, as part of my quarterly reflective process, what should you start doing, stop doing, keep doing. So I'm forcing myself to say no to certain things, but I'm still trying to find the right mix. So I can't say no to too much.

I've got to try stuff. I've got to recognize, you know, what really works. And so there are a couple of things that are really working right now in the business. And I'm leaning into those like the YouTube channel, trying to publish every week, which. for the large part this last several months I've been able to, to do. Um, but there are other things that, you know, are kind of next steps for that. And, um, I see those and I've got a,

I've got to deal with things that come up with. I do have somebody who's helping me with some of the video production stuff. So, you know, getting back to people about things because they're trying to help me. it's real hard right now for me to compartmentalize all this stuff i will say that it's not all doom and gloom though because the thing i have been able to protect time for is the really important stuff like

My oldest son is a senior in high school. I was able to go to the national soccer tournament and see his last game. And my other son was in the fall drama production. performances every night, Thursday, Friday, twice on Saturday. And I was able to go to all of those. So the things that are important, I feel like I'm still showing up for, but basically everything else gets filled with work.

Yeah. You know, I have a similar challenge and I think a lot of people in the audience can understand is I'm just slightly too optimistic in my quarterly, monthly, and weekly planning. I'm, I'm picking up like a few more things. that i think i can do in the week that i can actually do and it's because i really want those extra things to be done it's not because you know i'm just being unrealistic um and this is where the reflective practice helps because

You bang into it every Sunday. You're like, ah, I didn't do that thing again. And it's like, well, looking back on the week, was it because I spent the week? goofy and off no it's not that i worked really hard this week i just didn't have time for it and it's like okay well then maybe you can't do that right now and just like um doing that one of the things i do

Lately, I've been playing this game where I call. When I do my plants for the week or the month, I call. These are the things I really want to do. I put them in priority. And then I have stretch goals. Or I say, well, if things go really well or fast, I can do these extra things.

And that helps a little bit because when you don't achieve a stretch goal, it's just because you didn't have time for it and you're not as hard on yourself. But this is a problem that I constantly struggle with in terms of the week. If I had planned the week without the stretch goals.

I would have felt great at the end of the week because I did everything that I could realistically do. And I've really been making an effort the last couple months to not even get to the stretch goal part, just to say, okay.

these are the three it's not going to be five it's going to be three and these are the three and just do those well this week and then you know you can only do as much stuff as you have time to do you know and um but that you know that is such a foundational productivity problem where we pick up too much and it's not like the things i want to do that i'm missing aren't important or aren't things that serve my arte and things that are important to me but but still the realistic

Fact is, you know, I'm a human. I have other humans in my life that are important to me. I have things outside of work that I want to do with my life. And there's only so many hours in the day.

So I think we're both kind of on the same page with that one. Yep. All right, David, not you, David, asks about technology tensions. And how do you personally balance being tech enthusiasts while also advocating for focused, intentional living? One of my lab members says I'm like a drug dealer. I just keep showing up with new apps.

It's like I've always got something new and shiny for you. You're a dopamine dealer. It is a weird dichotomy that I talk about apps and productivity systems, yet I also am a... big into focus and intentionality but i think i can square the circle with um just the idea that i like to cover a lot of stuff because not everybody uses the same stuff but i'm also very

um enthusiastic and telling people not to switch all the time like for me one of the things i recommend is you only give yourself permission to switch tools in the week between christmas and new year and like i'm cognizant of that because right now i'm thinking about my 2026 stack and what i'm going to use and like oh yeah that's kind of fun like you've been testing some tools and maybe this year i will make some switches as i head into the new year or maybe not but

But limit the time that you're allowed to do it. Be aware of what's going on, but also get your work done. Have the reflective practice. Do the time blocking. Work on the things that matter to you. the other stuff isn't as tempting and shiny though. Yeah. I was thinking about this and I feel like my approach towards shiny new apps and objects has evolved a bit. I think part of that is the state of the tools that we have in our current moment in time. I'm not really interested in...

AI being applied to every app that I use. So there's a little bit of, you know, it's not for me. But then also, I feel I've really understood. As I've gone along this journey, the importance of sticking with what works. And so at the beginning, I was trying... Every email app, every task management app, you know, everything that I could think of. And as a screencaster for screencasts online, I noticed the other day that I have trouble picking topics now.

because they're all apps that I continue to use. The most recent one that's been published as we record this, I think, is one on updates to MindNode because I use that all the time. But I think... There's another angle to this which has influenced this thinking for me, and that's understanding how I'm using the tools. I really have gotten clear. on what are the jobs to be done for the things that I use every day. I need an email app. I need a messages app. I need a note-taking app.

One of the things that I walk through in the practical PKM course that I put together is this concept of the PKM stack. And I have this whole big thing in Obsidian using Canvas where I... slot in the apps I'm going to use for the specific purposes and understanding what I'm using this app for instead of going into, well, what all can this app do?

kind of transforms the way that I use the apps. I'm not using most of the applications that I use to their full capacity. And I am completely okay with that because I understand.

what it's supposed to do for me, why that matters, how that aligns with my vision and values. And that eliminates the need to kind of... constantly be on the lookout for something that's new and better we do live in an era where there's an abundance of good tools and that wasn't always the case i feel like when i first kind of got into this racket

There was only a few apps that were up to the task, and now there's just so many. And just like finding your own soup for your philosophy, you've got to find your own soup for your tech stack. The one that Mike or I use doesn't need to be the one you use. Just figure out what resonates and get on with it. Don't let the tools become the job. Yeah, the limiting factor is no longer the technology. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Sarah said, what's been your favorite episode or topic you've covered this year? And why did it resonate with you? I feel like this year we had some great guests on the show. I mean, looking back, you know, Donald Robertson was great. Anne-Laure LeCoumphe, you know, Paul Lumens. You know, it's just like so many great guests. Derek Sivers was on the show this year. I mean, I really am really happy with the guests we got this year. I feel like it really elevated the show.

and gave the listeners some interesting perspectives. I mean, I like the other content we did too, of course. I mean, and I think you and I have settled into this show in a way that we kind of share advice, I think. We found where we fit with this stuff. But I feel like 2025 was a great year for guests on the Focus podcast. I completely agree. I was going back through the page that has all of the...

the episodes, and there were a couple that I singled out as my favorites. You mentioned them already. One was the interview we did with Anne Lohr the Kumpf, and then the one with Derek Sivers. Um, so with Derek Sivers, one of the smartest guys I have ever come in contact with, but also one of the most genuinely interested and curious humans on the planet. I feel that. conversation went places I really didn't expect it to go. And it just was evidence of the engagement that he had in the podcast.

And similarly with Ann Lohr, like one of the smartest humans you will ever come in contact with. Also one of the nicest. I got to meet her actually at Craft and Commerce, which was really cool. But there was a moment in that show. I remember, which absolutely blew my mind. I'm not sure if you remember this, David, but she had just moved. So she was in a new location.

she had her computer set up on a box she had like a makeshift background you know behind her she's like this isn't how it's normally going to look but just timing wise i just moved in yesterday so like this is my setup for now and by the way

They're still delivering stuff. So there's a chance I may have to leave in the middle of the episode, which is what happened. I was in the middle of asking a question. I had just gotten it out and she's like, oh, sorry, I got to go. And she left and she was gone for a couple of minutes.

And I remember thinking to myself, how in the world am I going to pick up in that conversation, get back into the flow? When she comes back, how am I going to restate the question basically so she can pick up with it? She came back and just answered the question like she never left. I was blown away. A pro. Yep, true pro. I also really liked the last episode we did on analog because I was struggling with to figure out how analog fit in my life.

committing to do a show on it kind of forced me to make some decisions and i felt like that was personally useful yeah i i also like the uh we started doing occasionally these um quarterly planning episodes where we uh reflect on what happened and then we plan the the next quarter those are really helpful for me just talking through those like i i go on my personal retreats and i do the the thing but then when i come back and talk about it with somebody it

It hits a little different. Yeah. Murphy wrote in, how do you manage to deeply read when you have a job that involves a lot of reading? I love to read, but after a mentally exhausting day, more mental energy does not sound leisurely to me. Yeah. So I guess the first question I would... ask is, do you need to read for leisure? Because I remember something Sean Blanc said when he was on the show about if you work with your head, you should rest with your hands. And I really like that.

uh that dynamic i don't you know work with my brain all day and then when i get done switch modes but i do in the middle of my day usually when i hit a wall i can't think or create anymore that's the point when i go for a run or exercise get my body moving and then it kind of like not you know coming back uh fresh you you have a limit on the cognitive resources that you have at your disposal. I believe that. But you can kind of, you know, if there's a gauge, you see it depleting.

And then when you go do something physical like that, it boosts it back up. Maybe not all the way to the top, but that's sort of what it feels like. When you come back, you feel fresh and you feel ready to do it again. So if you really need to... keep reading i would i would just say interject some something physical in between there and then uh pick it up again but also um understanding why you want to do the thing that you say you want to do

Maybe you're reading, trying to read more because somebody said that you should, but I think it's also perfectly fine to say, you know what? I read a lot at work. I'm just not going to read when I come home, unless that's, you know, not the stuff that you really care about.

Yeah, I had some experience with this in my years as a lawyer because there were days where I spent the whole day reading. You're reading cases and writing briefs, and so you would read a lot. But I never really found... that much difficulty in reading in off hours because it would be different topics like if you read you know legal cases during the day and philosophy at night it's it's scratching different itches in your brain

Another way to do it, if you do want to read and you read a lot during the day, I would suggest get a fiction habit. Find some good stories. It's fun to read stories, right? It's kind of relaxing. It's okay to read it by listening to it. That's another.

acceptable medium like i used to find as a lawyer because there's a half hour drive from my office to my house that like getting a good novel like at one point i went through the patrick o'brien novels which were these sailing ships and the napoleonic wars and like after spending a day dealing with clients and judges in the office just going away to that that fictional world for 30 minutes between

working home it like would reset me so when i'd get home i wouldn't be thinking about work so and you know explore other venues of reading and mike's right you don't have to read if you don't want to but if you do want just switch it up a little bit or try a book on tape or

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Our thanks to Acogni for the support of the Focus podcast and all of Relay. All right, I've got one here from my friend Corey, who does the Bookworm podcast with me. We actually talked a little bit about this, but I wanted to get your perspective on this, David, because I mentioned you in that pro show, and I feel like you've got an angle to this that neither he nor I really have.

So we were talking about how in November we were trying to write. So he was saying he has trouble sticking with his creative side projects. And his argument was that it's because he's doing this on the side instead of... having it be part of his job, you know, side hustle versus full time. He's tried the public accountability, still has trouble writing consistently. And so he was kind of asking me, how do you create that creative?

momentum and the framing for this before I hand this off to you was uh he was saying that um you he framed it when he was talking to me as you get to create for your job. And I was like, no, I have to create for my job. It's the requirement. But you were Max Sparky long before you were not a lawyer.

What's the key here? Well, I mean, for me, it was something that I wanted to do. I just had someone recently ask me in the labs, it's like, how do you get the energy to... create all this content it's like and just jump out of bed and i want to do it so i have uh accidentally found my calling that you know i didn't know that but that's what happened so it became a force of nature for me but i

I did not start this whole thing with the idea to ever make any money on it or make it my career. I just thought I had some interesting stuff to share and the internet gave me a venue. to do that i mean i remember when i was in college reading about like during the revolutionary war everybody with a different political perspective had their own newspaper like

Jefferson had a newspaper, Hamilton had a newspaper. They all had different newspapers, and they would, you know, kind of put their ideas out in public. And at that time, there were three networks and a couple big newspapers. there was no place for my voice so when the internet kind of showed up i thought well now i've got that democratization what do i want to talk about and for me it's kind of the intersection of productivity and apple tech and you know my unique max barkey take on it

But I just started doing it. And then what fed me was feedback, hearing from people. I remember distinctly at one point when Mac Power Users was young in its run, I talked about some tip. with hazel to like file stuff and some lady wrote me she's like oh you know i was able to put that in at work and now i leave the office like an hour earlier each day my kid loves it that i get home early and

It's like, wow, I can help people that way. And it's like that to me was the... the release of happy chemicals in my brain and so that was what motivated me to do it and i'm always trying to find ways to get people home to their kids earlier and find what's important for them So it was just a thing that I wanted to do. I don't really want to burst Corey's bell, but it wasn't work for me. It just didn't feel hard.

to do it you know the struggle was for me just kind of making sure i didn't lose balance with my family at the same time but it was all kind of accidental i didn't really know i was going to quit being a lawyer until basically the day i made the decision so

I'm not really somebody to aspire towards because I didn't really have a plan. But you're hitting on the same concept, I think, that I mentioned in that episode, which was... that you've got to have the the why it's got to be important enough and this is not a judgment you know you said you wanted to write a book and you're having trouble sitting down to write you just got to wrestle with the reality that maybe you don't really want to write the book

And that's okay. That's completely fine. There's more things out there to be done than you can possibly do. So pick the ones that really work. And the experimental mindset is important here. and Laura a couple times in this episode. But I really respect her for the approach that she takes with her experimentation. She started a YouTube channel at one point.

It's like, this is what creators are doing. I should totally do this. World's biggest search engine makes sense. And she hated showing up on video. So she did it for a little while and then she gave herself permission to pull the plug.

You know, just because you said you wanted to do something previously doesn't mean that it's still the right thing to do. And it takes a lot of guts, I feel, to say, you know, I tried this and it didn't work. But if you keep doing that, eventually you'll find the thing. that uh that clicks and i do think the element here that i want to i don't have proof for this but my gut tells me that everybody has one of these you know there's some

It doesn't have to be a side hustle thing that you make money off of, but there's some side project that pushes your buttons in a way that doesn't have to become a job, right? So maybe it's part of your calling, but it is not your only... Soul calling. There's an alternate scenario where Max Sparky loves being a lawyer and just is content publishing stuff on the side. This is cool. This is my dream life right here.

Right. And you don't know that till you, till you try it. Yeah. The other thing is, you know, it's funny cause we always use writing a book as like the, the example of like, I want to do some big project. For some reason in this productivity culture, it's always write a book. And as you were talking about, I was thinking, I don't think writing a book should be the goal. I think the goal should be sharing an idea that you think would be well shared through a book.

or telling a story that you really want to tell i i think you got to go a level deeper and if you really want to tell a story if you really have an idea that you think you want to share with the world via the medium of a book, I think you're going to have no problem writing a book. Yep. Agreed. James.

This was a good one too. I almost didn't include this mic. I didn't want to put you in a bad spot. Partnership dynamics. How has your working relationship and friendship evolved through doing the show together? Well, I think it's evolved nicely. mike yeah uh we were relative strangers when we started but i really liked the spark i saw in mike and i was really happy that he was willing to come on the show when jason left and

Over the years we were just talking, we're almost to about 200 shows we've recorded together. Yeah. And we also are in our professional group together, the Creators Guild, and Mike's one of my best friends. Oh, thank you. Likewise. I'll say that when we started the show, we didn't really. know each other i didn't meet you in person until after we had been doing the show together for a while we had talked on the phone but i think it was uh was it max stock where we met

for the first time or maybe the relay fifth anniversary show. We had a long relationship. Exactly. Exactly. Which seems to happen a lot for me. Some of my closest friends are people I meet on the, the internet. And it's interesting to me because I live in a fairly small town in the middle of the Midwest. And so that's a weird thing to do. Go meet somebody on the internet. You're going to travel to hang out with somebody.

who you do a podcast with, who you've never met in person before? Like, is this person real? Are you going to come back? Are you sure you're not going to get thrown in a van, taken somewhere? Like that's sort of the, people don't say, say that, but that's like. Sort of what was going through their mind. And I think I would just encourage people to stay curious.

get around people online, be a part of the communities and the groups that you want to be a part of. Cause that was kind of how I inserted myself into the mix was I was interested in productivity. I was interested in. technology and I knew no one around here that I could talk about this stuff with so I went to Mac stock I got connected with

Don McAllister screencasts online. I started writing stuff. I got connected with the people that I did stuff online with previously. Um, so this, this question a little bit, I feel like, uh, isn't it's, it's kind of hard to answer. Because it wasn't like, well, yeah, we were friends. We decided to do a show. And this is how the friendship changed. I feel like we really got to know each other.

through doing the show. Yeah. I think we started as colleagues and became friends. Yes. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. And I feel like I reciprocate all of the feelings that you shared. And I feel like the show would not have lasted if that was not the case. If you're going to do 250 episodes with somebody, you got to like the person that you show up every couple of weeks and talk to.

I do remember the first time we met in person, Rachel was with you. And I definitely felt like I was being sized up. It's like, I better be in my best behavior around Rachel because she doesn't like me. I think I'm in trouble here. Well, I had referred to you as one of my internet heroes for quite a while. So she heard me talk about this David Sparks character. And then...

You were sending me emails every once in a while because you're listening to Bookworm and I was sharing stuff and you were very encouraging as I was going through some stuff. And then I actually remember at one point she and I were out for a walk. around our neighborhood. And I was like, wouldn't it be cool if someday, you know, I was able to do a podcast with David Sparks on the Relay Network, you know, long before we really got connected and focused was a glint.

in our eyes. And so, you know, she had this, this context going into it. And, uh, yeah, I think she probably was a little bit, I want, I want to say, uh, hesitant, but there's a little bit of a mama bear in Rachel, you know, that came through when she met you for the first time. I didn't drool on myself or anything. So hopefully I passed the test.

Last question from Chuck. I put this one in for you, Mike. Chuck wrote, love this show. He's been a Max Parkey fan for a long time. Thanks, Chuck. He says, I am a fountain pen fan and would love to hear what fountain pens you guys go to for given situations. I use fountain pen to bring my intentionality to my writing and prefer a different feel nib depending on the situation.

Keep up the good work with all your endeavors. I think that's a very common thing where somebody gets a special tool and it helps them do this stuff. And Mike? Let's keep you to three pens, Mike, because I know you could talk about 20, but what's your top three at this point? Yeah, so... Interestingly, the number of fountain pens that I use has significantly diminished. It's because I found a couple that I really, really like. So I have one actually on my desk here.

which is a uh a sailor uh i think it's a king of pen it's the the one with the really fancy nib the i forget what they call it the naginata togi or something like that where it's if you if you hold it kind of vertically it's got a real thin line and if you hold it pretty flat then you can get the really broad strokes it's uh

Really, really fancy. And that's the one that I use most of the time. There is one other pen, though, that I think I really love to use, which is less expensive. And that is a Pilot. custom 912 but the thing that makes this one uh so great for me is i took brad dowdy's advice and i tried the posting nib you familiar with the posting nib no it's basically like a very ultra fine kind of curved nib so it feels kind of scratchy if you uh write on it right across certain papers with it but

That doesn't bother me, but you can get a really thin line with it. And so I use that one. That's the only one I use that has colored ink in it. So I use that one with a... Is it... uh the the name of the ink is called writer's blood it's like a crimson dark red that has a lot of uh a lot of shading to it even with that thin line it's got pretty nice shading so that one is uh

Really, really fun to use. And I don't really switch them based on context to answer the question directly. I just have these two fountain pens that I really, really enjoy. I will use them when I'm at my desk. I'll use them when I'm... writing on the note card, taking notes, you know, as we record this episode, I'll use them when I'm planning my day in my personal retreat planner. Other than that, though, I use a lot of ballpoint pens because they are just easier.

more practical a lot of times so uh yeah i don't use fountain pens as much as i used to but i still still love them yeah i checked to answer your question my favorite fountain pen because i don't have as many as mike does I flirted with fountain pens, but I didn't really dive in the way Mike did. But my favorite one is a Platinum 3776. I got it years ago, and it's got...

The material is like an acrylic. It looks really nice. It's like a blue color. And what I did on it is I had it ground to an architect nib. So that means when I go up and down. Vertical strokes are very skinny and side strokes are very wide. And just with the way I happen to write, it looks really nice. And I like it. So that is kind of what I want to be fancy with the fountain pen. That's the one I ink up. I usually use, I've got a couple things of Robert Oster Bondi blue ink.

I like the Bondi blue just because of the reference to the old Macs. But I usually use the blue ink with it and that pen. But I've really gone down the rabbit hole on pencils. I've got a ton of pencils. And I had a box made of my own. It says on one side, it says Max Barkey. On the other side, it says Materium Superbat Opus, which means the results are better than the ingredients, basically.

That's the way I try to think about my life. I've only got so much to work with, but if I put it together good, then I'm doing something. So I use pencils. I sharpen them with my pocket knife. I sharpen them. I have a little hand plane I can sharpen them on. And so I actually find the practice of writing with pencil and stopping the sharpen kind of a nice way to slow down. So I generally use pencils, but I do love that.

that platinum pin and i'm a big fan of the platinums because they're just really well made and when you put because i don't use it that often but it the way that seals when you close the cap it usually doesn't dry out So that's a good pin for that. Although I suspect that you already know that since you're a big fountain pen guy, Chuck. But for folks interested in getting into that habit, I would recommend Platinums. They're nice.

Are you a Platinum fan? You got any of those, Mike? Yeah, I've got a Platinum 3776. I actually have one with an architect nib also. And it's a great pen. not a cheap pen but it's also not a super expensive pen and I feel like it compares with some of those more expensive pens in terms of how nice it is to write with.

All right. Well, that's feedback. Listen, if you've got a feedback question, get it to us. We keep a running list of this. And when the pile gets big enough, we do another show on it. So we'd love to hear from you. As you can tell, we're willing to take some difficult questions. So send them in.

But don't just send the difficult ones and some easy ones, too. That'd be nice, yes. Shiny new objects, Mike. You put something in here, and I actually want to know what you're up to. Okay, so a shiny new object that I previously owned that is much better. And that is the Rolls MS-111 mic switch, which is this blue box. And I heard about this originally from...

Marco Arment as the only really hardware mute switch option. I had a version of this that basically died. I noticed that the switch wasn't really doing anything. I could pick up

my coughs and things in the background. And I was like, what's going on with this? So I ordered a new one off of Amazon, sort of anticipating I was going to return it when it just did the same thing. Because the previous one... sort of worked it didn't really fully cut the signal but it brought it way down so that you could you could mask stuff a little bit easier so that's what i was expecting with this however this one

completely cuts all of the signal, at least the way that I have it configured. So the mic goes to the mute switch, then it goes to the... interface and not actually directly the interface because i got this crazy you know dbx 286 channel strip that it goes through first but basically before you amplify the signal that's the key and then by putting that in

It's got a little bit of a click, which maybe can be picked up occasionally when I engage it or disengage it. But other than that, it is a very, very effective mute switch that I can't tell. Even if I were to turn it off and scream into this microphone, I'm confident that the signal is not going to come through. It's way more effective than the previous one was. I don't know why. I don't know if the previous one was just a bit of a bummer. I don't know if this one was redone. It does.

feel different the switch engages a little bit different feels a little bit more substantial so they probably had some sort of revision to the the product but um yeah this has gotten uh a lot better and it is very nice to have a physical mute switch on my desk just in case I have to you know kids are being loud outside my door or something and I need to cut my audio for a little bit.

I can tell you because I have the roles switch as well. And I ordered one that just didn't work. And so it took me a while to get a working one. This is just kind of a podcaster talking about podcasting thing. it's nice to have the ability to meet yourself if you get sick or have a cough or the dog starts barking. Not that that ever happens in my life. So Mike, what are you reading these days? I am reading a book called.

toxic grit by amanda getz and i heard amanda speak at craft and commerce she gave an incredible talk and then quick had a thing at the end my book's coming out in in the fall This book is nothing like the talk that she gave. I feel a little bit duped, but that's okay. I think the concept is important and something that is relevant for our audience. It's kind of anti-hustle culture.

What's unique about this book is that Amanda is basically speaking to women with this. So she has these different characters that you... You play and kind of her point is you need intentional imbalance. You can't be all of these things all of the time. And so I'm not really the target audience for this, but there's still a lot of good stuff that I've been able to.

to glean from it. And honestly, the whole productivity space could use more female voices. So I'm glad this book is out there. I'm enjoying it, even if it's not really written for me. In the Max Market Labs, we actually have a book club now that about every six weeks we pick a book and we read it and talk about it together. It's really fun, like an old-fashioned book club. Usually it's more philosophy or productivity, but this time we decided to do an Apple-focused book.

So I'm rereading Apple in China by Patrick McGee, which is a fascinating book about how Apple, you know, got itself into China to do its manufacturing and the story behind that. You know, why that's good and why that's bad. And it's a very well-researched and good book. If you're interested in Apple stuff, Apple in China is one to read.

All right. Well, that does it for this episode. On Deep Focus today, we're going to be talking about the best books we read in 2025. That's the ad-free extended version of the show that we talked about earlier in the show. We are the Focus Podcast. You can find us at relay.fm slash focused. Thanks again. We'll see you in a few weeks.