I record this podcast on Gaetgol Country. I'd like to pay my respect to the traditional.
Custodians and I'm recording a Rendre country part of the Cooler Nation.
Let's go mus stomach be wrong. I just had four eggs, Like, chill.
Out, bro, where are you getting these eggs from?
I know eggs. There's a big strike on eggs family. All the chickens are going on strike not and you've got.
Four Yes, I know, I know you're going to dig this.
It's like I've been given like an extra sprinkle of something.
You've got layers.
Yeah, I got layers.
I was just thinking, I'm like, we're just such beautiful storytellers.
You make a lot of sense to that girl. No, I'm done.
Let's be in too honest to go.
I'm super excited because last week I got to go to the opening night of an incredible new Australian play called Big Girls Don't Cry, by the one and only Delara Williams. And she is here with us in studio here at Nova on Gadigul Country. Now, Delara, please tell our audience who you are, where you're from.
Hi.
Yeah, thank you for having me. I am Dalara Williams. I am Rarodri and Gumbengird, but I was born and raised on Gadigl, especially my community Redfern.
And that is exactly where this play is set about.
The play't I haven't seen it. Fortunately, I'm Melbourne.
I know, I know people go and can it come to Melbourne?
I know?
Please.
Yeah. It's a rom com of three women that are living in Redford in the sixties and it's just a story about how they're navigating their life, whether it's through love and work and social and they're all leading up towards their big nights, which is the nineteen sixty six debutante ball.
Oh ours was like the year ten River Cruise to translate, like.
Everyone had their like debutante ball. But I was like, yeah, Year ten River crews.
Whoa can you tell us what a debutante ball is? Because some people might be thinking, well what is that? You know, I know what it brings to mind for me are the white dresses?
Yes, so it is this sort of high white society. You see it in Bridgeton of these debuta Can you sort of announce yourself to society and you dress up and you do a type of partner dance, but it is just presenting yourself in these glorious gowns. A part of debutante ball is that the women have to ask the men to be their partner. I didn't know that, yes, yeah,
and so that's part of it. And yeah, I think Aboriginal people just wanted to be part of sort of a society that didn't want them, and they did their own spin of it. So debutantes still exists to this day in a lot of Aboriginal communities.
There you go. So when you were doing a bit of research and having yarns with your aunt and your grandmothers, what was their link to the debutante ball? What were their memories like That came to mind was always positive, always.
I think my grandmother's they're just always known to be the bell of the ball. They loved dressing up, they loved looking good, and this was just another example for them to dress up and dance. My auntie Esta, who was there to teach a lot of the people how to dance, and so she ran the dance classes and taught the women that came from country into the city about how the best to present yourself. So you don't really have trouble in the city and how to navigate
that space. And she's only the real person that I mentioned in the play. Everyone else is sort of made up, but I wanted to keep her and what her role is towards the debutante.
That's so beautiful. That's like such a nice tribute.
Yeah, and I'm going to assume like the dancing was like, yeah, not like you're modern dancing now, but like it was that what.
They called these days. So what's the progressive word for that? Because that doesn't sound like I should be used in twenty twenty five.
I don't think so. My knee is a damage from those days.
Yeah, oh my god, what a lot.
You split your pants in the crack?
Yeah, many times.
Something like that is a death drop on Vogue.
That's a Vogue, Yes, slut drop. I think we should just call it a slag drop.
Slag drop.
That's so clear. You've got that community in Northern Territory they call it bam bam.
Oh is this one.
It's more about the speed of it, so they call it are you bam bam?
Well and Nanas weren't doing that, that's.
Left me, honest, But they were go go dances. With short skirts. Yeah, so then you had a move.
Yeah. I'm a big fan of Bridgeton.
Like I know, you know there's some colonial aspects to it, but I feel like I I love that kind of like princess sort of like error of dressing up and it's not fantasy, but it's kind of like impersonating.
It's sort of like reimagining process. Yeah, because it is a reality. It happened. It wasn't that I made that up totally. No, you still Yeah, you had the sixty six one, which was only small I think it was only under like two oh not even like two hundred people that attended. And then you had the big one, which was in nineteen sixty eight at Sydney Town Hall and that was presented in front of the Prime Minister all the time. Wow.
Historic really Yeah, and you're just recreated this story around this history moments. But like you know, it has Yeah, it has fictional characters.
Brook They're so funny. Like, I can't explain how great the chemistry is between Delara, Steph and Meghan on stage. You three are friends. What has it been like. I know that there was you know, at the start of this process when you had all the actors in the room. You continue to develop the story, right, you did some cuts, you continue to work it. Did you take inspiration from, you know, Meghan and steph when doing that?
Of course, I can't deny that. They're just such wonderful women with amazing personalities and just seeing because they're stune to think like the characters. And that was really wonderful as a writer because there was a point where I go, you know these characters more than me in really safe hands. I've known Meghan, I mean we've known each other for fourteen years. This is our first time on main stage a professional job, so we have acted since twenty twelve together. Wow.
And for her to be in this piece as Queenie the ough that, I think it's everyone's favorite character. Everyone is a bit of a queenie.
Yeah, and she called queen that was my nickname grown up.
Yeah, there you go. So I was a little bit bossy, So.
Yeah, she was a Queenie and Stephie and Lulu. That just brings this light and love and joy to that character.
She sort of floats through the world, doesn't she. Yeah, which sort of leaves above some of the trauma as well, which I love to see like she faces it, but she also has this sort of floatation esque where she's like it's fun.
Yeah, she's just a dreamer to see the best in everybody and in the world.
I can't even imagine the black joy in that room, honest to god.
Oh oh my goodness. We had mob night the night before opening.
Did that go off?
It was something else never So we had community nights and so it was this mob knight for all of community. Yeah, it sort of gives them. They're in the space of their own and they got to express. So they were so loud and wanted to talk and wanted to but they were honor. It was like bold and the beautiful
for them. They were there all the way and there were comments and there was this beautiful moment of a scene between Queenie and Ernie, which is Guy Simon and Megan Wilding and Queenie sort of is talking about how I want to be wanted without having to ask, and you had an Auntie just call out go and tell her to Ernie's character. It was they were just there the whole way and it was something that was really special because I wrote it for community.
Yes, when you were casting, I know that you have a room full of good friends.
Yes.
Was that important to you?
Yes? Oh well.
The funny thing is that everyone auditions, and that was one thing that I really wanted to do, is going. You can go and pick your friends, but then you have to navigate work ethics totally, especially with new work, and you really want great minds in there to navigate the space for you, because as a writer and also acting in it, it can be a bit overwhelming. Megan did an audition that was her role from the get gum.
I can't imagine anybody else being her. I think somebody said, going and Megan Maldin steals the scenes as Queen and I was like, no, No, Queenie steals the scenes. She's written that way to just take up space and what it means for black women to absolutely take up space and be unapologetic about it.
But there is a beautiful tenderness to the character as well, and I think we see that with Queenie. I think that there's a brave front, but she's vulnerable, she's squishy, you know.
She's insecure, and I think, like all of us, you see such big personalities and you could sort of so what's underneath that and it's just them trying to survive, and it's I find that really beautiful amongst especially for Aboriginal people, that we don't get to see a lot is our vulnerability.
And our joy and our joy, our joy, our black joy, which is what was on display on that stage for sure, like there's a lot of black joy. I wanted to ask you about your writing process. I know that it's very different for a lot of people.
It varies. It's one thing I make a playlist, especially something writing something in the sixties. I made a playlist of sixties music because I wanted to hear what the characters would be listening to on radio, what has been spoken to in that time. But there is doubts, especially when you're writing about romance. You can go, oh, that's a bit cheesy, Oh these words don't is it going too far? But people love cheese? They do, they do. They love.
People really lap romance and cheese. And I think I haven't really personally seen a lot of love stories around First Nations culture, but it's nice to see like its showcase in like physical form. I want to see more First Nations love stories on our tell you tell us a bit about your career, Delara, Like, I know you've been acting for quite a long time now. You know what was your first job? Was it a stage show or was it a was it screen?
Oh?
Yeah, my first was a stage show. I did sort of kids pantomime kind of thing called Willem and A and the Seventh Bama Nui, which is a TWI play that was written by the lovely adjacent Desantish and it was about to know when the seven dwards but in twe So I got to learn about Twee culture through that. Amon Flak, who is the artistic director of Belvoir, directed it. So that was my first contact with him.
Full circle moment, I know.
Yeah. And then I went to study. I think I really wanted to understand more about the craft. And I always say you learn the language of the arts through study.
You really do.
I had no idea like the lingo that was used and thrown around in I guess the craft of acting. But then going and studying, you just it just makes so much sense, don't you reckon? Like, so you went to NIDER how was that three years? The course a slog.
Everyone has their their stories of going to drama school, but it was a real lesson for me. I found my voice in especially politically through Nider and just speaking up and just questioning the system, going why this? Why do I have to sound like this?
Why?
It was a lot of that, and I don't know if they got annoyed about it, But from that I came out and I did Black Comedy and Top End Wedding and another film, The Flood, and then I'd sort of just bounce between TV and stage and I think writing then started creeping in because I love Tony Morrison and she says, if there's a book that you really want to read and it hasn't been written, then it's up to you to write it. And I think that's
how it came in. I've gone I have all these stories, especially through the black lens, and because I'm so close to community and I just see such amazing characters that I just want to see everybody and everything. Yes, and I go, I might as well If I have that skill, I might as well put it to practice and absolutely taking up the space.
Have you got the writing bug down? Like? Are you already thinking what is the next story?
Oh? Yes, yes, I do. I have my next story. I'm still part of balnaves Is. It's Redfernd again. They're talking about like the Red Fand trilogy, and I want to do Redfern on the Block in nineteen eighty eight in the lead up to the bise Entennial. And so I love this mixing with historic events and then just sprinkling all this sort of creative stories that are just made up around that. I find that marrying them together is so fascinating to me.
Will you stay on the realm of romance?
There is romance in anything, but you can sprinkle horror in that.
You can.
That's they're the.
Tricks I know. Romance horror stories tell you.
That stories can fit into anything.
Yeah.
I love the idea of writing about love, writing about people loving black women, wanting black women, desiring them. Ah. I love it because I feel like black women are just absolutely sexy and beautiful and just like charismatic and just own themselves in there, and I think we don't give them enough love, especially in media.
Absolutely no almost combating what we know about black women is it. It's like the misinterpretation, the stereotypes. It's writing what black women actually are, you know, how the media see them.
I love that growing up like did you see a black woman that really inspired you, or like, did you see someone that you were like, yeah, that's a bit.
Of me in my real life. I can't help but say my mother, she just she dresses up, she loves makeup, and she always looked good and just watching. When you're a kid, you're like, you get a bit of embarrassments because you just they just take up space. But then you when you're older, you going, ah, I always channel her when I want a bit of confidence.
Love. It is so beautiful.
I want to be that bougie mom rocking up at school pick up being like, yeah, I'm the mother.
Of this daughter, big hoop earrings, you know, and I will just watch, I will. I think that's really beautiful.
I feel like I am always really inspired by women who take so much pride in like what they wear and how they carry themselves.
There's someone who just like walks into a room.
There's a few people in my life that are like black women that I'm like, that's just you. Just you demand the room's And I think that there's not many stories about women demanding a room right, Like, I feel like if we look out what's trending and what's like streaming at the moment, like all the majority of the love stories and romance like stories are these like not to be mean, but like these basic white women who like don't have spice, spice or flavor, like give us
better something like yeah literally like boiled chicken, trust God, yeah, like the love, like you said at the start of this episode, the love.
Like where do we like?
Everything that I see sometimes is just sometimes playing into that discourse, and I'm like, no, there's so much love in our communities.
Like go and watch a Black fellow pipe play. You will see and feel the love that we have not just for.
One another, but like for our life and for living you know what I mean?
And I am yeah.
I always say that, especially with survival, I think we forget that love has gotten us this far. If it wasn't for the love of our people, the love of our family, the love of our land, also black people falling in love for us to exist, it is I think we sort of forget that that it isn't like you when you have auntie love and they have your back, you just truly it's big warm hugs and or even when you want to be held accountable, that is also
through love Jarring. Yeah, and I know you can be better than this, and that is through just the love of somebody seeing you. And I think I really wanted to write something where a lot of people felt seen and it wasn't about the sort of stereotypes of what being black is but underneath it all because it's living day after day in this space as a black person, and that is the rollercoaster.
Yeah.
I love that you've given that breath of fresh air to the industry in terms of this writing and the themes that it covers. I think for so long, theater companies in particular have invested in trauma of our community. Then the highlighting you know, important historical things like through Stolen you know that play, but also there's a lot of spotlight on the deficit or the trauma that has
caused to our community. And I think what you've done beautifully is that you're highlighting our joy and it's just as important, if not more, you know, to be able to show that part of our community. I want to know what's on the horizon for you. So you've just you know, open black. I was gonna say, black girls don't cry, black girls don't big girls don't cry. Would you love it to tour?
And if so, yeah, I think I'll ownly tour it if I have the same company, because we've just created such a family during this process, and I think none of us would know what to do if it wasn't all of us. Yes, but I will, like I really hope.
So.
I just the feedback that I've gotten from I had a mum tell me that her three girls went to the school show, and three Aboriginal girls, and they walked out of it so like with pride and just loving themselves. And I think that is so important, and the importance of arts and telling stories like this is to empower your people. I just wanted to empower going you belong here, we love you, we need you.
That's just beautiful.
I'm looking forward to, like a lot of your future writings, Stellara, this is going to be exciting. Would you publish anything like the book?
You know what I think right now, I sky's the limits. I would never do it myself, and if it happens, it happens like Big Girls is now a published play, which is unbelievable. I would love to then go into film, like film has always been my first passion It's like my first access to storytelling is through films. I'm my family and I are big fans of Eddie Murphy, and so you can sort to tell my writing like Coming
to America is a romantic comedy. It is this crazy comedy with this romance that is filtered through.
I haven't been that film in so long.
Please watch What's the Golden Thing? The Golden penis.
Trust just thinking about something else.
But I completely like being on stage and doing these really important stories that you understand these stories need to go out. But then you're as a performer, as a black faller, you're sort of left empty because you're pouring so much out to an audience that you feel like it's falling on deaf is sometimes especially towards a predominantly white audience, and I think there's a distance between them
and they're watching. It feels like they're watching through a glass window where big girls because I we talk about the trojan horse, like you use the romance as the trojan horse, so they're sort of invested in that romance. And then all these politics then comes through, unsurprisingly because I go, yeah, my politics is always there, but you're also want to go on dates, and you also want to read romance and you want to escape and you want to and we should have the right to do that just as much.
Yeah, what would you say, I guess to the people that you know who are behind those sort of glass windows, like, what would you say to them to entice them to like watch Big Girls Don't Cry?
What do you lose in wanting to invest in Aboriginal people? You don't lose anything. You actually gain so much if you step two, feed in and just want to go on this roller coaster that is Big Girls Don't Cry, Cry Cry Cry. That was really Australian. That sounds like, yeah, it's I always ask that going You don't lose anything, but you gained so much. But it has to be up to the individual and how much you want to. You only can go as deep as you are as
deep to yourself. Yeah that's and when whatever comes up,
it's like go away, then unpack it. But to see Aboriginal women do things that are very similar to you when it comes to love, when it comes to friendship, going, we're not that far apart, especially in social life, but we then have this really deep rooted history that we carry with us forever, and I think that's something very beautiful in our survival, that we can still stand here and be so kind and still be so loving and still want to be generous.
I think that's actually paramount to your character as well. You know, these values that you're talking about your character in the play very much is that, you know. I think the way you've done brilliantly is in society, I find that when you're talking about First Nations affairs, it
can be very polarizing. So you've created this love story, as you said, and you've given so much context to why these characters are the way they are that there's a huge learning for people who aren't a part of our community, you know, historically in terms of the things that you're bringing up, like you know, even the time period, the time of Redfern, the war that's currently that's happening in Vietnam, you know, all these little moments that really
pop you back in that time and place. And I feel like you've done it so intricately where it's like some people will zone out if it's shoved down their throats, you know, And I think that's something to consider as the First Nation's you know, playwright you know, and I think you've considered it so well. It's like it's so welcoming the sense of like I'm in the story. I'm getting the things that I need to be aware of when it comes to like first nations people and.
Giving context and context.
Yeah, but it doesn't feel like you're being like you are wrong.
You're you know, stating facts, probably stating facts not coming from like too much of an emotional thing of you know,
like you're putting these moments in history. I've never in the play, but like I can imagine you're stating these facts and then being like yeah, but like look at this is beautiful, this all this other stuff, and it's like, yeah, again, you're not like polarizing it to like pointing the finger, I guess, And like there's I believe like all of these stories, like you know, other plays and other films and other books and stuff, they all kind of entwine and they all kind of come rooted from history.
But it's how you tell it in first.
But then also it's all a ripple in the ocean, Like you know, someone might not know anything watch your play and be like oh shit, yeah that happened, or might like go do some research and then actually go down a rabbit hole of actually like researching and understanding and educating themselves.
It's all just part of the bigger picture. Staff.
Touching on that, Brooklyn, one thing that you just brought to mind was the fact that you really humanize us.
Yeah, you know.
I think that one thing that people will walk away with is they see us through all the moments that you've written as more human and I think that is such a powerful thing.
Yeah, I was just saying, going the relationship to the audience to the characters is that you're learning the same time as the characters are learning. Yes, Ernie's probably because he's going to university and so he's really well read and trying, but he's still trying to understand what's happening. And he has this sort of hope for the revolution and we can do this and we can do that, but he's still very learning, and then at the same time can't talk to women. He sort of bumbles about
with his words. Cheryl is very flawed, and I think writing Aboriginal characters are also flawed. So we don't have the answer and we're just trying to figure this out. This is our first time living on this planet, living this life, and so of course you're going to I think I have the answer, but that is the wrong time,
wrong place, and then you just try again. And I think having an audience spond in that kind of way of just going, oh, I feel for them in a human way because they're just doing very human stuff and the circumstances just change.
Yeah, we'll Speaking of audiences, I know that you've probably got to play today. You've got a matine right, a matinee and a show tonight, so we're going to have to wrap this up. I've been getting the wrap up. I know that you're supposed to be over at the theater, But thank you so much for spending time with us stage, Alara. Such a wonderful piece of work to you that you've
written and that you've created. I feel like it's one to go down in the history books in terms of, you know, creating a path for black Joy on stage.
Yes, I think that that.
Is really inspiring.
So I'm happy to take that on and write more Black Joy and Black Love. I am more than happy to stay that way.
Yes, I love it. Thank you so much for your time, and anyone who wants to see the play. When does it wrap?
We finish up on the twenty seventh of April, so it's only been a short season. So get in.
Getting while you can, Okay. And I know that the wonderful Ian Michael is the director and he's missing closing because he's going to be a Beyoncely.
Yes that I go.
You know what, you better be on that plane.
Oh, thank you so much, sir, haven't you much