I record this podcast on Gaetgol Country. I'd like to pay my respect to the traditional.
Custodians and I'm recording o Urando Country, part of the Cooler Nation. Let's go.
I know you're going to dig this. It's like I've been given like an extra sprinkle of something.
You've got layers, Yeah, I got layers. I was just thinking, I'm like, we're just such beautiful storytellers.
You make a lot of sense to that girl. No, I'm done, honest to go.
Today, Manny and I have the pleasure of inviting the imperfects onto our podcast. The trio are usually the interviewers, but today we're going to be interviewing you. I honestly, the first five minutes of us being in the room together, I like opened up already, so I can tell that this podcast is this going to be No, we're going to actually even it out.
Bat. I think that's because we came in just probing your dating life, and you're just an honest per the exactly.
It's also the relationship that we have.
Whereas because when you came on our podcast, you were very open and vulnerable, so maybe that you're just used to it when you see.
Us, maybe your episode in our podcast comes up a lot. We get asked a lot of the time, what are the memorial interviews? Your interview is one that will start with us forever. We do a lot of like events where people say what's the what's the interview? And your name comes up every single time, and we will still get feedback on We still get people messaging us about it. And yeah, it was unbelievable.
Ah, that was going to be a question for later on, but I feel like we jumped it on, like how.
It's going to be, Like you've actually had that impact because you see people come up to you on the street and say, you know, they recognize that you're on their podcast and talk to you about that conversation. So obviously that was a powerful moment and that connection between you and the Imperfect must have touched a lot of people. What was it about that conversation that allowed do you brook to get so like deep with these fellows? One?
I think it's a general vibe and energy that you guys give off. But the impact that that episode had on me, honestly, it was a really tough time in my life actually, and during that time I was going through some turbulent times, but I think it felt like when as soon as I walked into the room and saw and met each of you, I felt safe. And safe is not a big word. We talk about this a lot. Don't even made it Maddie about cultural safety and how important that is to feel safe to then
feel honest and transparent. And I'm a pretty honest person. But I wouldn't say walking into a room full of like three and there's no ofvents to you guys but straight white males, that I would immediately feel that, like, you know, should you?
But yeah?
And I think it's.
Kind of feels like for an audition in this industry.
It really be like yes, yeah, yeah.
How are you? After that records it was such a really deep and heavy at times chat that was like it was like ninety minutes. I think we chat it for a yeah how are you?
Afterwards, I actually had the opportunity to relax, I think after that episode, which was really nice. And I think that's been the most vulnerable I've been other than writing
my book. I talked a lot of about my childhood, but I hadn't really vocalized it on an episode, and then maybe a few times maybe on the podcast of our own, but it was I would't say liberating because it's very like heavy, but it was nice that it felt like it didn't define me or own me anymore, and I was happy to voice it, and I was
okay with voicing it. And Maddie and I talk about how important it is to own your story and to redefine and not feel like you're defined by you know, these things that happen that are traumatic, but we love actually like having authentic conversations, and you guys are just we like learned so much from you, I think, and we're just so curious to like how you guys made
this happen, Like how did you all get together? You know, because you guys are family, yes, and then Ryan you, I mean this is probably familiar ground in a way because we've worked for Nova once before as well. Yeah, so how did this relationship happen?
Initially it wasn't three. Initially, it was just going to be Hugh and I and Josh. Well, to go back a step, Hugh and I met randomly at a cafe in Melbourne.
I was walking past the cafe and I saw Ryan Shelton sitting in there, and I got very nervous. I'm such a huge fan.
I have to.
I have to because I'd seen him a lot because we live in the same suburb, and I just thought, today's the day I'm going to go and tell him effectively that I love him and I'm a huge chair.
I love that the proposals a but yeah, it was. It was a very nice compliment.
So he came in and he sat next to me and he said, yeah, he liked the work that I'd done, but what was actually so lovely? Hugh said, explained what he did. He started the resilience projects, and he did these talks at schools and sporting clubs and all this stuff, and I was like so impressed. I was like, oh my god, this guy. I thought I had an important job.
This guy has an actually important job, and so I was so interested in And then he said, well, actually, I do this talks every day, and to do this talk, so I have to be really up, you know. I have to be in a good mood or I have to have high energy. And I don't always feel like that. Like some days I feel a bit down or I feel rocked by something and I don't feel like doing a talk. And so before I go on stage, I will watch your videos and that makes me happy, so I can then go.
And do the pump Nation.
It was really really nice and so anyway, So then like a couple of years later, I had a midlife crisis and called, huh, we hadn't spoke.
We spoke after that, for it was like three years we hadn't been in't we're just like I think I asked Ryan for a photo and then post on Instagram, so that night without my consent. Yeah, and you couldn't collab back then, I would have asked for a club. And because he's a very nice person, he just like liked the photo and so we knew who each other were. And then three years later he reached out of Instagram,
and so could we catch up? I still remember I was in my now wife's parents' house, just like I've never been so excited.
I couldn't believe it.
I mean, I was sad that he had something had gone wrong and he'd catch up, but I was very excited to hang out. And I'm coming home that nine cent to Penny in my wife then girlfriend. I think, I am so confident we're going to be friends. I am so confident with friends. I was very excited and that never happened, but we did work together.
Still friendship.
No, That's probably one thing that I love about when I came on was the follow up from each of you, Like it just this just the messages and the check in to see if I was okay and everything. And I feel like that's probably what I've taken from you guys, is like when we have guests on is just saying like, thank you so much, because gratitude is one of you know,
your values. I'm assuming and yeah, I feel like I'm always like really grateful for people, just like opening up and then I always love to thank them and make sure that they are you know, that they know that it was appreciated. I think, yeah, that's you guys lead an example of that.
With Josh joining so oh yes, Josh, we kind of realized after.
You guys are family.
So yeah, about three years after we first met them, we became friends and then decided to do podcast. And then we realized we had no technical like I don't know, I was like, don't we just record it and then just send it it's a podcast, And then we decided we need something to help with the technical side of things, and Josh he's great with that kind of stuff, and so we asked him and he started doing it.
And then.
Whenever we did an interview, Josh would always have a question for the guest. It was off Mike, and his questions always so much better than it, and so it was what they were to just bring out a different side of the guest and would often change that and then he is getting ridiculous. Josh's questions are the best.
Winted to give him a microphone, so it became in the background of the microphone or questions afterwards, if you could think of any and then in the end it just became, this is so silly not to have this in an interview, and that's so it was very organic.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I was at a point in my life where I wasn't really enjoying what I was doing for work outside of that, and so I was really excited to have this to work on.
And it was so.
Enriching and fulfilling and sort of inspiring to work with
these two guys. And then yeah, I just was so drawn into the incredible people that were talking to it was hard not to be curious and one of us questions of people when something is started and there's only two people doing it on the mic, I think it requires incredible generosity of spirit to say, yeah, I know you should be on the mic talking as well, which I don't think I've acknowledged that you guys enough, How great PLA am for that, and what a big thing
that is. It felt natural, But I think in a lot of cases people could be quite protective of that space that they've created and not want to change it because it was working so well. So thank you, yeah, pleasure.
I wanted to ask a question around, you know, the dynamic when it comes to putting this podcast together. What is it like behind the scenes, like these conversations organically you know, created in the moment, or do you guys work on certain themes and topics that you really want to touch on with each guest? What is it like behind the scenes for you guys.
Well, I think that would be amiss of us not to mention the people who really do bring it together, Bridget Northeast as the producer and sort of I don't know, well, how you just grab a bridge mum who's younger than more oppressive than anyone ever. She and there's Bella who's our research and assistant producer, and then George who edits who are there full time, and there's other people like Jam and there's lots of other people that work on
the show. So at the start, yeah, it was just the three of us talking about what we might want to talk about with a guest.
To be honest, it was just who do you know that might go on the podcast?
It was pretty much that.
Yeah, it was a little bit like us as well, we're just kind of flicking it.
Yeah, that's kind of the beauty of and it.
Maybe podcasting has changed a bit now, but I mean, no, this still exists, but there's now sort of I guess what you'd call like a professional level of podcasting, Whereas when we started it was in Australia at least, it was still pretty like not slap dash, but it was pretty kind of cowboyish, I guess, in how people would pull a podcast together. So I think that the stakes felt pretty low at the start. And when we first that first year we did I think six episodes spaced
out across the whole year. There was no there was no like regular larity to it or plan or schedule or anything. It was just like, once Josh had had enough time to finish editing the podcast around his other actual job, that we released one and then we do another one. So and then we did that for sort of two years, and then iHeart jumped on board to sell the ads, and then they made the very smart suggestion of going like, hey, maybe you guys should think about doing like regular episodes.
It might make it a bit easier.
For us to sell ads, because we wanted to get a producer and to help us with more episodes, and that's why we needed some ads and anyway, and so then it became more of a kind of like traditional show, whereas before that it was just experimenting.
Really yeah yeah, and now it's like the credit really to the power brilliant the people are that we get to work with, of how amazing that that they do this, But I think it's really important as far as how do you create their space for these vulnerable conversation, which I think was sort of implied in the question in that it's to me, it's one of my favorite things that's happened this year is that when Bridget's so Bridget always do a pre interview with the guests beforehand, have
a chat to them, find out their story, and she spoke to someone who was brilliant, a wonderful person. But after the conversation, she just said, I don't think they're ready to talk about this in a public space. It'll be too damaging for them to do it. They wanted to tell their story, and she said, I think it would be unsafe for them to do it, and it would be bad for them and their mental health. And it was a no brainer to say, I'm really sorry, but we don't think you're ready it and we won't
have this conversation. But the fact that we genuinely do put the care and safety of the guest as the number one priority. I think guests feel that.
I hope you felt that when you came on, and I think it leads to real conversations that aren't just trying to get a salacious, vulnerable story because that will sell. It's because there's value in telling that story and telling it properly.
Yeah.
Yeah, and that comes yeah with the space.
Yeah and that yeah, and that space is created months before you come into the show.
Credit to your team, because I feel like Maddie and I really value our team equally as well, Like when I feel I have opened up or I feel like, oh okay, that's something I probably should have workshopped. You know, when we finish the episode, Rachel's the here to hold space for me. So like, I credit Race Rachel so much because she's created that space, like for us to speak vulnerably about whatever it is, even if we haven't workshopped itself, and I'm like, can we cut that out?
But that trust is so important?
Yeah, I mean yeah, and that's oh my god. I've just honestly we're up to you guys, because I feel like that episode was just so special to me, especially my my journey, because I feel like from then, I've felt really good about even if I've had the conversation just with a random stranger about you know what, what I've what I've learned about myself. Yeah, it's like this it's taken a little bit of a bit, a bit of a weight off my shoulders in a sense because
I wasn't defined by any of those experiences. I feel like, but you know, the episodes itself was really quite heavy, but I didn't feel that afterwards, So that's always great.
I have learned from you guys that men should be vulnerable, and it's actually a powerful thing. Especially it's funny when you hear someone else be vulnerable, or you hear you know, you blokes talk talking to another guy about some sort of deep emotion or an experience that they've gone through and you unpack it inside a gentle and beautiful way. I think that is almost like the opposite of what we've been taught, you know, and the opposite of what is ingrained in how we should be as men. And
that's even me as a as a gay man. So I just want to say, like, I see that, and I appreciate that about you, fellows. I want to ask, though, like what did it take for you and your experiences? And maybe it was something that you had growth together around, but what did it take to get to that level where you are able to be open, vulnerable and not shy away from letting people see that emotional side.
Well, I mean for me, I think I definitely I've never been a traditionally like like in the way you're talking about, Maddie, Like, I've never been traditionally like vulnerable person. Really, Like it's not really something that was big in like my house growing up like it wasn't. We didn't talk about big emotions or anything like that. It was very much surface level and making sure everyone felt safe and you know, good, consistent. There was lots of love, but
not necessarily emotional conversations. And so for me, like kind of ironically, the thing that got me to be vulnerable was well, actually I was able to be vulnerable with you. I mean that's the before we even decided to do the podcast, when I like we talked about before, when I first messaged to you out of the blue on Instagram and say can we catch up for a coffee?
I'd had this sort of epiphany in my life and I was it was kind of like a pre mid life crisis, Like I could see the midlife crisis coming, but it wasn't. I wasn't in it yet, but it was like, oh shit, that's that's going to come my way if I don't do something. And so I had all these thoughts and this, yeah, this is kind of like and I didn't know I didn't really know who
to talk about it. I mean, I have lots of people I could talk about it, but for whatever reason, Hugh jumped into my head I literally hadn't seen him in two years. I met him once and I was like, that guy has the resilience project. He'll know what to say. Like for some reason I trusted that he would know and he would like treat it carefully and you know, be sensitive to it. And so when I met up with Hugh, I just kind of like said everything, didn't
I everything? I was like, yeah, just vomited vulnerability in his face. And the great thing was is that he didn't give me any advice or didn't even really say that much. He just sort of listened and and and just I don't know, like put me in touch with a few different people, and but that sort of kicked off.
It's probably like speed ramped our relationship in a way that if we had have like just bloody met at the footy ground or usually how I met blokes, you know, just in the nets, hitting sixes, hidden sixers in the nets or spin and flippers. You know, if I hadn't met him that way, then maybe the relationship might have taken longer to get to that point. But because it was like bull out of the gate, like straight into the vulnerable stuff, we were having deep conversations like every week,
and that's how the podcast came about. So my vulnerability only was able to happen because I felt safe in talking to Hugh about it.
There's also I've never asked you this, but would it have been hard for you to be that open with your mates that you'd known for like fifteen years?
Yeah, well I could have spoken to them about it, but it would have. And this is nothing against them, but I think you was just naturally so in tune with everything I was talking about in terms of like the work that he was doing. And I think at that point you were starting to be a counselor, like
you were literally doing a counseling course. And I don't know, I think a lot of and me included if someone came to me that my natural instinct is to try and solve their problem, and from what I've learned since then since doing this show, it's like that does and actually it's actually not the right thing to do to try and solve the problem. It's just to listen and you know. But yeah, so that really helped the fact that I think I knew she would be the right person to talk to, and he was. But if I
had spoken to a friend of mine. Maybe that would have been fine to it, Maybe it would have been just as good. Maybe I'd be doing a podcast with a different person. But the way it worked out was incredible perfect.
Yeah, I just think it can be quite hard to switch like quick switch modes, Like with someone that you've been friends with for a long time, You've only got like one style of communicating someone I've never been vulnerable with, and there's this kind of built friendship of fifteen years and going, like I think about some of my mates and some of the conversations I've had with people on the podcast I've never met before in a really safe space all with you guys. But then I found myself
because of the podcast. A few of my mates I think have felt like they can sort of talk to me a bit the way you felt like that with Hugh. And I find this and it's like a really nervous energy of like, oh shit, can I Yeah.
I.
Like books worse I was gonna say last time I've had books disgusting actually a horrible word.
That's the title of this, just a load of pool.
Yeah, I feel there's this nervousness of like, shit, we're going here and we've never done this before. We've known each other for lack. I'm thinking of one friend in particular I've known since for twenty two years, and we never talked vulnerably before, and there's this real nervousness and scariness of like, oh, we're going to be able to negotiate this and handle it. And it was an amazing conversation and beautiful and it was I'm so glad we've
done it. But it felt a lot harder with someone that I've known for twenty years than it is because there's so much baggage, so much life experience between us. Yeah.
I also think the other thing to acknowledge, probably for you, madam, is like I think you can only be vulnerable when you feel like completely safe. And I'm probably assuming here, but like as a gay man, maybe you don't feel as safe emotionally as much. Maybe I don't know. Obviously, it's like I'm making big assumptions here, but it might be hard to jump and go. I'll be vulnerable. I trust everyone around here. I trust everyone's got my interest at hard and everyone is going to be supportive and
loving of me. I don't have that sort of resonates with you at all.
Yeah, I think it does. I also think that intersection of being a First Nations person as well, you know, the whole resilience cap we have to wear, and sometimes I don't feel that way, but I pretend, you know, so it's like I'll feel strong or feel like you have to sort of have everything together. But yeah, I definitely, I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I think that's there's probably layers of everything including that as to why.
But I do think that safe spaces aren't I don't think they're created as like. I don't. I don't come up against them as easily as I think I would like to.
Yeah, of course, Yeah, so it makes sense. I think it makes sense totally that you find vulnerability can be a bit harder because I think it's it's to you need to trust as well. There's to be a huge amount of trust, and I can pletely get if you don't feel that all the time from people. It makes sense, especially the way society is at the moment. So yeah, I totally understand.
That I worry about our next generation about vulnerability and sharing our emotions. But I also seeing an increase in platforms like TikTok where they're expressing a lot of their stuff but complete strangers and feeling comfortable doing that. And I'm like, oh, I don't know how I feel about this, do you like, Yeah, what's your perspective? I guess on that with having your own children.
Well, I guess there's two parts of it.
I think I think it's really important to be like to we I think we have on our not jokingly, it's kind of serious on our tea card things that we said say, always vulnerable responsibly, because I think it's really important to do it in a way that you feel safe to people that it's a really like I've always probably been leaning into vulnerability more and probably in times and moments when I shouldn't have in the past.
And I've sort of been burnt a few times in my life by probably giving a bit too much of myself to people that weren't capable of handling that, and it's hurt and only ended up hurting me more. And so I think it's it's incumbent to emphasize that it's really important to only do it with people that you trust and who've got your interests at heart. When you're
doing it and nothing else. That's why I worry about being really vulnerable just out into a platform like TikTok and just because it's the wild West out there and like it's and I don't think everyone who watches your video has your interested heart, So that is worrying. I think as a parent, it's I guess, emotions and vulnerability if the kids is something you negotiate every twenty minutes, I think you've got a new challenge ahead of you,
and it's difficult. But I see a like certainly, I can only really speak for me, and the friends are my friends, but I see a lot of fathers leaning into vulnerability with their kids a lot more than I think they were in general the generation before they were shown.
I think, yeah, I'm sure.
It's not everywhere, but I feel lucky that that's certainly I would say more of the norm in my my friendship grow Yeah.
Yeah, we should probably say that. Josh and I really feel as we hit the jackpot with our parents as far as they were always like wanting to know what was going on, how we were actually feel Mum would always ask us the emotion we're feeling always yeah, and would always unpacked for ages us, so it's never felt it's always felt very.
And there was never any judgment from Dad about any No, not at all. Yeah, So we're incredibly lucky, and.
I think we kind of hopefully then, having had that model to us, will do the same with our kids.
I think it's good to acknowledge though, that when you hit the jackpot like we did with our parents's, it makes it like it's easy to see, it's easy to do what you've seen and what you've experienced, and we saw it and lived at firsthand. So just being I don't know, just acknowledging that now it's a lot harder for other people to lean into this kind of thing because I think we were luckily shown it from a really early age. So it feels something about it feels
natural and right as opposed to feeling really scary. Yeah.
Yeah, and everyone, everyone. If there's one thing I think all three of us have, even if we knew it, that we've learned properly since doing the podcast, is that everyone is going through something and it's not a competition. Some people are going through through all everyone's going through some level of pain or you know, at different points, and even if they're not it's just sort of best to assume that they are because we just don't know.
And so I think the listening listening without judgment is sort of like becomes obvious when you kind of just if you assume everyone you've talked, even if they come across like they've got nothing wrong in their life and they're doing great and they got an awesome job and super sweet mas MX five and you know, and they're
just seem like they're kicking goals. Is like, if you just assume that they're struggling with something in their life, then it's it's going to make the conversation a lot different.
I think.
I think that happens a lot in our industry as well. Like you will see somebody who might be perceived as like their best moment of their career or they're having like such a highlight in their life on social media, but behind the scenes it seems to always be at the same time that they're maybe going through the roughest patch personally. It's some weird sort of moment, you know, that happens often people tell me about.
I mean literally, the very first episode was with Missy Higgins, and that is exactly her story when she was like when she was special toing the hell out of it around Australia and at her absolute peak, she was at her lowest mentally, and and that that was that really set the tone for like, Oh, this is this is people we just don't know.
You just don't know.
Yeah, Maddie, you have like a really nice analogy that you use a lot.
Do I on the hill?
Oh?
Yeah, I have an I have an idea for a kid's program in a school. But that's it's more speaks to privilege, and it more speaks to the idea that we all start on somewhere on a hill. It's a visual way of learning and and teaching kids that you know, in life, there are people who may start more towards the top of this hill, and their goals may be closer to them and their terrain and and the part that they choose to walk in life, I'll get to
choose by their privilege is much easier than yours. But it doesn't make it doesn't mean you can't make it to the top, you know. So I have this idea of you know, really wanting to go into schools one day and teach kids about you know, the journey of trying to achieve what we want in life and finding our passion and in a joy because I think one thing that I've realized is I've been able to create this path on this hill that really works for me
and provides me a lot of joy. And that's being able to have this you know, this life that I always wanted and be in the career that I love because it's what I'm meant to be doing. It's my owner joy. And I just think there's so many people that don't get that opportunity in life, you know, that don't get to do with their their purpose is. But yeah, that's definitely down the track. It's an idea that I shared with Brook only on the weekend. Actually so.
Very new.
It's very new, So it's you know, I just also know how much sacrifice it takes to to do what you love as well. It's not like you can, you know, have everyone holding on to your way you try and make it to the top, but once you get to the top, you can show them the way, you know. So it's like, yeah, there's just a lot of visual aspects to this analogy that I think is really easy for young people to understand and and be able to
use as a bit of inspiration in their life. But it also correlates with a podcast where they're able to talk about their dreams, goals, and what their journey may look like for them. So yeah, it's a sound the track.
It sounds right.
Yeah, what is something that each of you have learned on this journey about yourselves that maybe you didn't know beforehand? Like you get to do something that is quite profound, and that is, you know, share people's stories, elevate people's voices, but also in a weird way you like three therapy firsts, you know. Definitely it sounds like that in my ears, you know, And that's it. That's a compliment by the way.
I feel like, yeah, yeah, I.
Think what is it that you've learned about yourself that that you can share with us on this journey?
There's so much. I feel like every episode we have there's a moment where I know, books episode for example, I just it really reiterated to me how important is to to think about the journey of First Nations people and remind ourselves of what they went through, what they still go through. And it was a really it was very powerful for me in that in that regard, like it's always sort of you do think about a lot, but I think it needs to be more front of
mind for everyone. And that's sort of what happened there for me. Very specifically, we did episode on ADHD with a psychologist who's an expert on ADHD in the last year, and then I realized that that was me. She was
talking about me. It took a while to get there, but yeah, so I literally discovered I was ADHD through our own podcast, which is funnily enough, I didn't think about it at all when we're doing I was thinking about all my friends who might be ADHD, and then I mentioned my wife and then and then we went on a bit of a journey, and then I listened to the episode again and I went, oh, it's definitely me. So I listened to I listened to our podcast to
work out, which has been very luckjagic. So that was a big one for me.
Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's it's constant.
I wish I could think of like a really really big one, but it's like it's it's it's often like little little things that can maybe have big impact or big make big change potentially, like even just today, we spoke to this a psychologist and it was all about sleep and she was talking about the importance of sleep and the impact on our brains and our life and and how And I, of course I knew just anecdotally that sleeps important, and I've like heard people, I've read
about it. But the way she put it today, I was like, Okay, no, I know I need to get eight hours sleep, but I really need to get eight hours sleep, and I need to prioritize it more than I do currently. So even that if I actually go on and put that into practice, then it could potentially have a huge impact on me.
Yeah.
Yeah, So it's it's it's lots of things that you know.
Some things I hear and I'm like, oh my god, that's incredible, and then I'll forget about it, and then I'll hear it again later on, like if we put it into a clip and I'm like, oh, that's right.
That was a cool bit from the podcast.
Some hit, some don't.
Yeah, some stick, some don't.
Yeah.
I'm the type that would use that sleep that learning from that sleep psychologist probably as like an excuse to have naps in the day.
Naturally.
Good good, No, longer very good for me. I don't know why this feels really vulnerable to say, but for me, it's just that I feel like I am enough as I am. I didn't really feel that for most of my life, and this podcast has changed that for me.
Wow.
Yeah, I love that. And I don't know if it's I had kids at the same time as this podcast started, so I don't know if it's it's it's definitely them as well. I can't sort of separate the two because they'll almost work a month's within each other. But yeah, that I'm okay because I certainly don't didn't feel like that for most of my life before that. Yeah.
Wow, it's so great that I just heard that from you, Josh, because today when I was journaling, I was writing about the feeling of not being enough, you know, and so I really resonate with what you just said. And it's and sometimes you do have to sort of like find something that allows you to to find that feeling, you know, and you feel your podcast. I think I'm on a journey. Yeah it's out there some way, but you know, feeling enough. Can I ask you, like, what does that feel like for you?
Well, sadly, it's not like it's not like fixed sort of thing. Like it's not like I feel it's like, oh yeah, I got there and I feel like enough, and now I don't look back. I feel like I fluctuate and in bad It's almost like I feel like I'm enough more than I feel like I'm not enough now. But it doesn't mean that I don't still feel the way used to when for a variety of reasons, whether it's lack of sleep or just a bad wake where shitty things have happened. But to you know what, it's
a strange. We had a revelation on the show once when we were talking. You said, Hugh said something about when he meets someone really good or really funny, he has this feeling. I hope I'm getting this right of like, oh, I can't wait for us to be friends, Whereas I I had never heard it vocal as at that. I always thought more like they wouldn't want to be friends with me, and even if they do, they'll work it out pretty quick that I'm not someone you want to
be friends with. And I think that's fading for me, and I feel like, well, why wouldn't they like I'm not that bad, and that's a nice and that's a really nice thing to carry and to say what it feels that matter. I think it's like I was unaware of the weight that I was carrying before that revelation, and yeah, the weight might feel like it's there some days, but other days it's it's not. And that's a pretty
great feeling. And it's great to be a dad and be able to look at your kids with that, with that feeling, because you certainly don't want them to feel that and so to I think you have to be able to say it about yourself first before you can teach them not to believe that. So that's that gives me hope. Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, we're a little bit of a golden josh n I get for you.
Me good.
I was like, Dawn, save it for.
I love you guys. Oh god. I feel like that plays into like comparison cultures sometimes, Like I feel like that's an out for me for twenty twenty five, is comparing because I always had this mentality like there's more than enough to go around, whether that's like money, love, like kindness, like there's so many things that there's just there's more than enough, Like why do we you know? And I find myself comparing myself a lot, like why do I why do we not get like enough downloads?
Or why do why do people not come to our things? Like I was really down. We would did like a live show, and it immediately jolted me because I thought I had an expectation I guess of like who was going to come, and then that didn't It didn't exceed my expectations. But instead of being like, oh this shit happens, poop happens, I was like, oh, no one likes me,
I'm irrelevant, and I go down. It's like, you know, and I have the same thing of like not feeling like enough but also feeling like too much sometimes because I've been told that like and I have my own battles with that. But like it's nice hearing you know that these these conversations, because like I feel the same way, like I am enough as I am, and the right people will find me and the right people will appreciate my energy even if that is too much sometimes yeah, yeah.
And it doesn't for me, it doesn't. It a realization that doesn't have to be everyone as well. That's a nice realization to know that if you've got enough people that you know appreciate you for truly who you are, that it can help to intellect from some of those comparisons. I think potentially, but they're still there. It's hard to avoid.
I think, hard to avoid. But it's an out comparison culture you're not. It's an out for me.
It's good.
That's a good thing to get out. Yeah, absolutely, what is.
What is what role of social media playing that for you? Because you've got such a big presence on social media and to do that, I'm guessing you must have to be on social media a lot and you see what other people are doing and people who are in your industry what they're achieving, because everyone's putting up their best stuff.
Does that kind of highlight to you if you're if you're putting on a show for your live show, and then you'll see another podcast that does similar stuff to you doing a live show, and you're like, why have they got people there? Do social media? What I'm trying to say is the social media make things harder or easier for you?
Well, there's so many good things about it that I love and I kind of try to, you know, revel in those relation those, but I think it's it's conversations that are like face to face and of face value and you know, genuine messages. I think that really make this whole social media aspect of my life feel valuable innocence. Other than that, it just feels like I just use it as a tool to advertise what's really important to me, which I think is a good.
Balance really important.
Yeah. Yeah, I just kind of got sucked into this vortex. I think over the years, Maddie, Maddie and I talk about this a lot, but it hasn't really hasn't been in the last couple of years that I've really come back to myself and I realized that I was not boring as what people would think or would say about me. I was like, actually, I'm really creative, but I can't share that world because people don't know that world or
know that of me. So if I just share it, people are gonna be like, Okay, she's she's gone unhinged, like she's she's gone off the rail. Yeah, out of my lane. Yeah, And I have to stay in my lane in order to fit this. Yeah, And I think that's something really I battle with sometimes with what do I share and what I don't share, But I feel like when they share the moments that I enjoy and
I love, like the moments when my dad. Everyone loves those moments, like they like, oh this is so you know, really wholesome, and I'm like, yeah, that's the things I love. So hopefully you love it. But I was also going to ask the question of you guys when you're doing the episodes and everything, and it does get.
To a part.
I mean, Josh, you've beautifully opened up and I'm like, always so grateful for that, and I think, like all of you have, but do you pick and choose, like when do you rein it in and when do you like choose to share and when do you say oh okay, like I haven't workshoped that I'm going to like keep that private. And I mean we touched on it a little bit. No, you have a team, but like lit in yourself.
The most helpful analogy I think I can't remember who said it with was Bridgid or I'm not sure it was. It's like, it's it's not healthy to an open war is not a healthy thing to sort of show. But the scars like a scar to talk about a scar it's it's it's a much safer thing to do for yourself and for a listener, but an open wound potentially not if that kind of makes sense.
I think that was the It's also kind of you know, I think when when people when either one of us or a guest, yeah, talks about a scar like so in other words, like something that happened in the past, and they've somewhat processed it and thought about it and have and are able to talk about it in a in a reflective way, that is it's almost more I think for the purposes of the people listening, it's more helpful, I think because they've got some perspective on it, whereas, yeah,
when it's an open wound, and maybe if they're in the middle of going through something and it's really hard, then it's I don't know, I feel like it's it can often it can be. It can still be really helpful, but in our experience, it's usually more helpful to the listener, which is always the field like more help over the listener. If it's if it's a reflection on a wound, yeah, on a scar, sorry and a scar.
Yeah scar.
Yeah, that's a really great analogy.
I'm not taking credit for it, definitely would Bridget.
Yeah, yeah, such a Bridget. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, we've really we've been doing this for only two years and not nearly. You guys are in your seventh season.
Seventh.
Yeah, you're doing a long time and you've had some awesome people on. Like I've listened and learned so much from different perspectives and everything. Can I ask you what maybe, like what does twenty twenty five look like for the pod or in terms of like will this just continue on for you guys? I know you guys have done like a few live shows in your time. Like who's your dream guest actually, like who would you love to have a conversation with or been sitting at the table with?
I mean for me, for me, it's probably Jim Carrey. Oh yes, yeah, he's absolutely.
Like I was in I think it was probably year eleven or twelve when like ace Ventura in the Mask and those films came out. So he's very much, you know, my one of my influences, like being in comedy, and he's gone on his own like complete life change and the way he like he's good mates with totally and like he's just like, he's got some amazing things to say. So I would love to have him on would you have.
On as well? I saw him show and he just spoke about watching birds.
I can't remember.
There was this part where he was like, just sit and watch the bird and he imitated a bird. It was actually really good.
That's a very thing to do.
It's I've read.
Both of his books watching birds.
YouTube has got heaps more.
Yeah, he suggested going watching birds and just analyzing them and being in his thing is power of now in like present moment, right, Yeah, so Jim Carrey for right, Jim Carrey, Yeah, I was a huge as venture fan.
Who is my dream? Guess I'm kind of terrified because I don't think it's like an impossible thing. It might happen, It might happen one day, but I'm kind of scared that it will. Being Nick Cave, he has experienced a lot in losing two sons now in tragic circumstances, I mean losing actually what circumstances of losing a child is in tragic But he is this for me, an absolute
model of honest vulnerability. But he is so intellectually brilliant and so so incredible that I just feel so inadequate near him, So I think it would be a terrifying interview. So I kind of like dream guess that I kind of hope doesn't actually happen because it would just be too much. Yeah, just be too nervous.
I fluff it.
Yeah.
I should probably mentioned our live show before before, I figure, but we're doing that's probably the most fun I ever had in my life. But right up there. We did a live show last year and to the country year before, and we've decided to write a brand new show because we just have so much fun doing it. So this year, to answer your first question, we're writing a brand new live show and we're touring all the major cities around Australia end of the year. So that I cannot wait
for that. My dream guest we had, we had Pat Cummins, strain and career captain, so very much fell in love with him and gave him the lyft to him from the hotel as well. I haven't done for guests before, and but having had you, i'd loved her. Billy Connelly, Scottish comedian, I loved her. That would be wow. Yeah, that would be pretty cool.
How's your dream guest Maddie.
Well, I was the one who said, can we get the imperfect on? So how about that off? No, we love it, but thank you so much for coming on today. It's been such a wonderful chat. Yeah. I appreciate what you're doing for you know, I want to say this, you know, I appreciate that you're creating a space for men to listen in and and get in touch with
their vulnerability. I think it's super powerful thing, especially in the current political climate where we see a lot of misogyny, and I think that it's definitely the combat to one of the things that can combat the misogynistic ways of men and how they how they treat women in the world, these sort of conversations. So yeah, thank you so much.
Thanks, I appreciate it.