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Welcome to First things first, I'm Brook Blert and my pronouns are she and her.
I'm Maddie Miles. My pronouns are he and him. And before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge the custodiums of the land on which we record and for me and Brooke today it's the Gatigil people of the or Nation.
Yes, we've got an exciting guest coming up, the Seal Shackleton, who is a lot of things which.
Will jump into let's go.
Welcome, Welcome, thank you, thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
So tell us a little bit about your job, your profession, who you are, where you're from. We always say who's your mom? Where's you from? But later.
Lucille she her pronouns. I grew up in Sydney and I've kind of done a range of different things. I got into relationship therapy and sex therapy in all honesty because of my my own experiences. It's an area of interest for me. And you know, when I was younger, I had challenge it. Wow, I mean we all have challenges in relationships, but it really kind of was born out of that desire to understand my own challenges in relationships. So I started by studying a Bachelor of behavioral Science.
I went on to study counseling public health and then did sexology or psychosexual therapy. So I now kind of specialize in relationships and in sex therapy, and yeah, I help people improve their relationship, dating and their sex lives.
Can I ask what is sexology?
Sexology is the study of sex, sexuality, sexual experiences, your relationship with yourself as a sexual being. So it's everything around sex, intimacy, and your experiences as a sexual or erotic being. So it covers sexual health, it covers intimacy. It's kind of a really broad area. So when someone says that they're a sexologist, usually they have some sort of formal training in sex, gender, sexuality, intimacy, and those sorts of areas, and often that kind of filters through
to relationships. But one of the reasons I kind of say that I specialize in both is because when I was I started out as a relationship therapist and through working with people and you know, sex often comes into the sessions when you're working with people on the relation on their relationships. When I studied all the kind of main frameworks for relationship therapy, there was a very little conversation or teaching about sex, and so I was like, oh,
I didn't feel prepared to really navigate with people. I was like, why don't I know this if I've studied all this stuff, And so I went and got a master's in sexology or psycho sexual therapy to kind of give me more skills and tools to help people.
It's not really taught a lot in high school. I mean, my very very little sex education was coming from a sealed section in a Cosmopolitan magazine or a girlfriend magazine. I don't know if you knew what both. You know, the seal section, you rip it and it'd be like how to give the best blowjob or something like that happen, Yeah, seriously, And I did have exist, but they just come back. So Cosmos just come back and they've got a seal.
Section now, so it's like it's seal.
So yeah, like you can peel So it's like a sealed little magazine within a magazine, and you kind of peel it off and it's.
Got all this sort of like but that's for me.
I don't think that's really like a healthy way because like why does it need to be sealed?
Like why is it?
Is it covering up in it? It's like in this secret and it's like, well, no.
That's true.
And I think like growing up, that was the very little education that I had around sex. I mean, I know that's some really awesome advocates around consent. I think Chantel Contest do you know her, Yeah, she has put in a lot of consent ledg or for that legislation to be in schools. I think as well. I think that's a big improvement around consent personally. What would you
say like has been the biggest barrier? I think, you know, in what you've researched over the time that you've been in relationship and sexologists, I.
Think if we go with the theme of kind of what you're talking about, and that is sex education. So I used to work in shelters with teens and it was really evident to me the lack of information out there. And I think what I've really noticed with young people is that, especially for kids within the queer community, the
information that they're getting is very heteronormative. So the most of the education that people are receiving in schools is very heteronormative, so it may not actually be relevant for their relationships or their sexual experiences, which then leads people to access information on the internet. And I think this
is the biggest challenge that we have today. It's that young people are accessing a lot of education through things like porn, and that doesn't cover things like consent, It doesn't cover things like safe sex practices and condom use.
And it is also, you know, very geared towards certain ways of achieving pleasure, and so I think it's created this very skewed understanding of sex, and I think it really stunts people's development of their sexual self confidence and embracing themselves and feeling comfortable with them in themselves.
Yeah, I feel like there's a whole generation of men who just sort of putting their own needs, I suppose, all their own wants above women, you know when it comes to sex. When you were doing your masters, was there much like teaching on same sex?
Yeah, I did a subject specifically on sex, gender and sexuality, and it was amazing.
I wanted to do that yeah, I feel like I would learn.
Yeah, it's so much more about myself more than about other people's stuff.
I feel like this case study is me.
It's fascinating because I think what it helps you kind of unpack is just how socially conditioned we all are from the experiences we've had growing up around what relationships should look like, what sex should look like. And I think this is one of the big challenges I have with social media. I think social media has a lot of really gendered messages that we've seen dating and relationships.
And whilst you know, I think social media is an incredible platform to access information, it's really important to be really discerning around who you're getting that information from.
Yeah, I feel like that's my biggest struggle.
I think working with you kind of re educating them to not trust everything that they're reading, listening to, or watching on TikTok and these other platforms, because I think, you know, they kind of take it for Bible because they have such easy access to it, and it's like it's terrifying, it's so scary.
Would you say that consent is something that is like a top tier priority when it comes to sexual education in schools? Or what do you think is like absolutely.
I think this is the thing. Like if we think about sex, and you know, people are often focused on like pleasure, how can we have good sex? We can't have good sex unless we feel safe. We can't feel safe if we don't have consent. And I think consent is a consistent conversation. It is, you know, a question that you ask, but it's also continual in our you know, learning how to respond to one another, how to tune into one another, how to listen for cues in order
to keep kind of having that consistent conversation. And even if that's not verbal all the time, it's you know, learning to kind of tune into your partner and check in with them and see where they're at. And it's things like after care. It's not just like do you want to do this now? It's also like how was that for you? You know, how did you feel? How did you experience?
That? Is?
I love a debrief.
And like you know what you need after do you want paddles? Like to feel close? And I think even just things like that, I think the way that consent is often taught to young people, well, sex in general,
I think is very fear focused. It's very like focused on contraception, you know, safe sex practices, like how to use a condom, all of that sort of stuff, But it's not like, and I don't know, part of me thinks like, how how could we teach it in a way that's actually going to empower people rather than scare them.
Yeah, because like if you.
Think about sex education that TV show right, like, it was all about empowering young people to make choices, and you know, the more information you have and the more confident you feel in yourself, the more you can navigate these difficult conversations.
Around that that don't seem so scary.
Yeah, exactly. Like I remember, even in my adult life, like learning so much stuff about myself and then having the confidence because it wasn't so scary because I sort of broke that barrier because I'd made like felt confident enough to say things or ask things or just you know, go kind of like go for it in a way where it's comfortable and consensual.
But then it wasn't so scary.
After that, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, not to like bring it down or anything like that.
But I think my experience with sex were.
Like first times were like non consensual, and I knew that it was wrong, Like I guess my first like full transparency, and I'm okay with talking about this because I also am in therapy and I feel.
Like that I've got support.
But I was molested when I was younger, and that was a boundary that well, I didn't even know what boundaries were at that age, and I didn't even know what they were really more into like my early twenty twenties or mid twenties really, but so my first like sexual encounter for pleasure per se was not I guess, enjoyable either, because I'd already I'd already had this misconstrued idea of what sex was and what pleasure was, and like I thought that it this is kind of fucked up,
but I thought it meant to hurt and that's not okay. And so it's like pleasure wasn't pleasure for me for a very long time, and it wasn't until like I actually, yeah, learned more about myself and I had someone who I felt comfortable enough to communicate and talk to about my needs and my wants later in life that it all changed for me. And I think that's like a very common thing I think for a lot of women, which kind of terrifies me and fucking scares me.
About it, because.
Yeah, I have a different relationship to sex now, but when I was younger, it was a very fucking confusing navigation for me, like hugely, And I think that's probably why I'm so motivate to make sure that I'm saying and doing the right things for other young people because I feel like a pressure to to to them for them to not go through that, but then also to have the confidence and exploration and voice voice is a huge thing to ask the right questions and to have
those boundaries. I think, yeah, that was an overshare apology if but apologize sex for me like I enjoy it now, but previous to my Yeah, I've had my boundaries cross so many times throughout my life.
It's not okay.
I just want to say that I'm sorry that you had that experience, and I think it's incredibly powerful that you share that on a platform like this, because what I can tell you is that I have worked with so many women who struggle to enjoy sex as a result of sexual experiences that they have had with their boundaries have been cross where they have been hurt, and I think the more that people's voices are shared, there's
so much healing that comes from that. So I just wanted to say thank you for sharing that, and also I'm sorry that that's what you've experienced.
I've found a lot of the time that I have shared with other women per se like they've gone through similar experience, which is actually awful. And then I think of, oh my god, if I'm going through this, you're going through this. Have other young people gone through this? And
I think that's what I get so terrified for. But I think, you know, I wrote a book a couple of years ago, and one of the biggest challenges for me writing that book was having the confidence to be like, Okay, I'm going to share something really fucking vulnerable and it's going to be terrifying, but I think it's the right thing to do. I think I need to do this because it's not just for me. It's like, if it's for future women, it's for future people, however they identify it.
But I think like sharing that, I've had a fuck ton of messages from people who have gone through similar and are so grateful that I have, And so that kind of keeps me ticking over. I guess in a way that I feel okay about it. It still sucks sometimes when I think about, you know, I was a child, I was young.
It didn't happen just you know once.
It happened more than a few times, and it was from people close to me and my family. So that's also a fucked thing to think that that breaks a barrier within my own family relationships, right, And I'm so glad that I have got the skills and the mentality to sort of overcome that and keep pursuing and keep persisting. But it also just it created a little bit of a resentment, I guess in like an openness to have
sex and to have relationships. And I think it's also been part of the biggest barrier I've had with the relationships and sex combined, because you know, like you said, the hand in hand. Yeah, And I think like the more I learn about myself and the more I sort of don't blame myself and forgive myself and sort of you know, use it as a like a fucking superpower, sometimes I'm like, fuck that.
It makes me feel a bit better.
I guess it doesn't take the scars away, but I think like it makes them like hurt. Last I appreciate when people like say that it was a fucking shitty thing, like I'm.
Like, yeah it was. For years, I was very silent about it.
What does a healthy relationship look like? To you? As a therapist who have worked with many different relationships and couples, you know, what does a healthy relationship look like? And what does maybe a healthy conversation look like when it comes to intimacy.
I think for anyone, safety and respect within relationships and sexual relationships is incredibly important, But I think it is so much more important if someone has had any sort of experience where boundaries have been breach, Like create that safe environment is so essential to build that trust and that foundation in order to really be able to let your walls down right. And sometimes depending on our past experiences, I think we all have these ways of protecting ourselves
depending on our wounds. And so we have our individual wounds, we all have our stuff, and then depending on what those wounds are, we will create these kind of parts of ourselves in order to protect ourselves and to and so sometimes we have these parts that may seem somewhat dysfunctional, but actually usually they're serving a function. It's just that
they're serving a protective function function. So often it's about I think a really big part of creating a healthy relationship is reflecting upon what are my patterns and how does my past influence how I show up in relationship and engage with other people that patterns.
And I talk about this with my therapist quite a bit.
Like he's a.
Man, he's also neurodivergent, but he's very he's amazing, Like I love my therapist, and I think that's a really good relationship to have. But I realized like him being gay for me was like he's.
Not a threat. Yeah, he doesn't want me. He doesn't want to fuck me.
And I know that sounds so stupid and quite like humorous in this in a fucking stupid way, But that's why I love him, because.
He's even experience to what I would have as a.
It's a pattern I have because like most of my best close friends are all queer, and I feel safe within that community. I feel safe within that enviroment, which kind of speaks a lot, and I'm working on that. But also patterns are like I don't know when we when I first saw him, like, he he made me like, look out all of the relationships I've had family and then also romantic and then my friendships, and how I felt that they're you know, what would they think of me?
Or and like what do they serve me? Like in the relationship, Like all these like questions and cues that I had and I noticed, like and that's when you sort of notice the patterns of like my relationships like and why they ended and why they started and the intensity of things, you know, when do they ever cross a boundary?
Do they ever make you feel like?
It was just so interesting And I think patterns is such a good way of like starting out to notice things.
Have you ever done this well?
I have. I definitely have patterns and habits that I don't like think are positive in my life. I feel like there are so many like things that I've not
when I was doing therapy. When I was in therapy, I was definitely working on breaking a lot of patterns and habits, but also patterns in your partners, you know, understanding knowing that they can become quite predictable and understanding it's almost like you know what you're going to get you know what I mean, because like even with my partner now there, I know, I know certain patterns around if we have conflict. I know that he hates a
discussion to find resolve quickly. He needs time. And so what I've noticed is every time I've gone in with a solution and gone, we should fix this right now, give me a kiss and cuddle, let's get over this, like trying to fix it straight away, he can't, Like he can't meet me there. He needs time. He needs like at least a few hours of us not talking, Yeah, for his emotions to come down, you know.
Yeah, processing time.
I know that about it.
You didn't really communicate our needs and wants.
It's the hardest, that's the thing.
I guess.
It's such a sometimes I don't even know what I want though, And give me the time to like figure that out. Yeah.
I think that it changes in relationship dynamics, you know. So, like my sexual needs in my past are completely different to what they are now. So it's like almost one like a three sixty of the dynamic. So when I was with Poor, everything sexual is completely different to what I have now, And in both moments, I am experiencing my needs so it's like it depends right on the dynamic.
The dynamic of the relationship influences the sexual dynamic and vice versa. Because I think that's the thing, Like we get needs met in different ways, and we will show up differently according to the relationship that we're in, Like, yeah, I think different relationships bring out different sides of us. And I agreed, Yeah, it's really key.
When I'm with a woman, I'm differently different when I'm with a man.
Yeah, it's a love being with a woman.
I think it's it's very comfortable, like it's very like I don't yeah, I feel saf the man. I'm like, oh, that's just like it's.
A bit clunkier.
I actually remember having a moment with my partner where I was like, I think that I get a different version of you than your ex Scott, and you get a different version of me than my ex Scott, and like us coming to the realization that we are both like really good versions of ourselves in this relationship when in our past we might have been like hiding parts of ourselves or trying to be something else to please
the other person. I definitely know that was my experience, so like I can definitely tell you know, when people say, oh, your partner should bring out the best in you, I feel like this relationship is the first one that yeah, like we've both sort of met there.
Yeah, I think so, like I've seen a huge shift in the last year or so. Yeah, Yeah, I want to talk about dating apps, like, I find it's just so transactional sometimes.
Do you feel like.
The access that we have, like through dating apps is not a problem, but do you think it's like causing a very different mindset to how relationships establish.
I guess like, look, I think relationships are really helpful in that they allow us to connect with one another, and they allow us to connect with people that we might not have previously been able to can with. But I think the way that they've been set up, they're not actually set up in order to help you determine whether you can create a healthy relationship with someone. So I'm a big believer in healthy relationships being a cocreation.
You create them together by the way that you show up, by the way that you engage, by the way you speak to one another, Like it's something that you choose moment by moment, and there are certain things that need to be really present. In order to create that regardless of the relationship structure, you choose things like respect, things
like kindness, you know, like things like building trust. And I think the challenge that I have with dating apps, and this is what I hear from a lot of people I work with as well, is that it's really difficult to determine whether someone has these things on a dating app, So you have to get off the dating app in order to actually meet someone and form a connection.
But I think the secondary challenge I have with dating apps is I think it's created a bit of a throwaway culture where as soon as people go this is a little bit hard, or this isn't perfect, I'm moving on to.
Rest and the grass is greener. There's something shinier.
The grass is greener, There's something shinier. And I think the reality for me is what I would say is a relationship therapist is I remember my first class in like starting specializing relationships. The lecturers said to me, no matter who you choose, any relationship will have a certain set of issues that you have to be willing to deal with for the life of the relationship. Yeah, to me, all the time, And so there's always going to be
something right, Like, it's never going to be perfect. You're going to have challenges, You're going to have arguments, But can you respect each other throughout that?
Can you hold on to that love?
Can you work together to co create the environment that you want to experience? And so I think the challenge with dating apps is I think people are maybe not as willing to put in the work to create something really wonderful because because there's something else so accessible, and that there's this illusion that it it should it should always be easy. And I think that's one of these messages that we get it should always actly.
No, but like it shouldn't be hard.
No, no, no, don't get me wrong.
The reason you ask me that is because of what I said at the.
Start, that's right.
Yeah, we had a big DNM. Yeah, and he what you're pretty much saying is what he yeah saying.
Like for me, I've always been a relationship person. So I'm someone who likes to like really work through stuff. For instance, my previous relationship six years. The last two years was me really trying to work through it, like trying to get to a point where I thought, Okay, it's either yes or no, like and so I'm someone who like will make sure that every stone is turned before I give up. You know, even with my relationship now we've had we've been together a year, and there's
been moments I'm like, oh, should I walk away? But then I find just on the other side of the hardness is the deep conversation that I need to understand him more. Yeah, and then we get through it. You know, I don't know. There's just something about not giving up and then getting to the side of that moment that can really create a like a deeper connection. And so for me those moments of difficulty, I don't throw in the tower. And I'm not saying you throw in the towel.
I'm just saying I'm I do. But but I think that there is a culture out there where it's like too hard basket, Yeah, they don't do. And I think it's some people think it's self preservation. It probably is for some people.
It is for me and moments, but then also there's a thing of like it's not that it's not even sometimes the them problem, it's a me problem because.
Or like do you think the grass is greener on the other side?
No, I know a standard and I think of what I want, which I think is I want that, Like I'm not gonna.
Say at all.
And they're all great people, like I'm still friends with people that have dated this year blah blah blah, but they've said things for like, you know, they've disrespected me and said things like speak and round and I don't agree with that language. So it's for me, it's not a matter of like, oh, the grass is green. It's like, no, you haven't done the work. Those words are offensive. I've
communicated that with you. You've said it again. No, So those moments have been throughout this year, Like a few of the guys that I've dated have all said those words, and I'm like, guys, we're on twenty twenty fucking four, Like, if you haven't done the work for me, Like, if you're still saying those things, you're not the type of the person that I want to be with.
It's it's a value thing.
Yeah, do you think it's really about the word. It's actually what you think is acceptable.
I agree, and I find it offensive and I feel offended by it because I've been called that many times and I've communicated those things. I've learned to communicate that's the thing. I'm like, look and I'm okay with like after the first day, being like, look, it didn't really work, Like let's move on, Like you're a really lovely person. And I'm still like I said, I'm still friends with most of the people I've gone on dates.
But the opposite, I'm such a people pleaser that I'm like, you know what, Like I think that I'm the opposite end of the spectrum, Like even if i'm too, well, we can probably get through it.
Like, yeah, there is one recent one though, Like the guy left me in the restaurant and I would never speak to him again, Like that is a total disrespect And that is exactly And I just think you have not done the work. You would never do that to your mum or someone else that you respect, so you clearly do not respect me. So like yeah, so that's where I draw a line. And it's a hard, hard, known hard out for me.
Authenticity is key, right, like you showing up authentically and then being able to go, okay, well, this is who I am. I like, and I think the more authentic we can be in the dating process, the more likely we are to meet someone.
To meet someone on the same and came.
Like when you when inclusivity is like a core thing for you, like it is for me, Like inclusivity is very important to me. If you know, I were to be in an experience where I were with someone that wasn't inclusive, that wasn't aware, that would be a value misalignment. And so it's understanding ourselves better and understand how we can show up in an authentic way, because the more authentic we can be, the more likely we are to meet someone that's a good match.
Right exactly.
So it's really it's about knowing yourself. And I think it's also.
About just beside the day I reckon too. You have to go out and you have.
To meet people.
You have that you do you know, I haven't. I just don't have that experience. I've actually never been on one date in my life, my whole years old. Yeah, it's like I just don't have that, and.
I think it's sweet and I love it.
I mean I've been on three dating shows and I've been on a numerous hundreds of dates.
Maybe I should No, this is just going down the wrong date. But not for like, because I'm not in an open relationship. But dating could be fun if you just wanted to like experience people.
Can we have you back on again? Because I would. I feel like I want to.
This is like just a part one, I feel like because I would love that. I feel like there's so much more because I want to talk about like things like nose.
And dots yeah.
And like no that is yah, and domes green and red flags all that.
Quick fire.
I feel like our listeners, if you are listening, I feel like you guys would love it, like I feel like they would. I think this is like such a common thing with my girl group at the moment as well, Like well, girl group, but half of them it goes like but we all are feeling like the same vibes.
And I think, look, it is changing across the board, whether you're dating men, whether you're dating women who regardless of who you're dating, you know, I think being a queer woman, I've had various experiences in dating. Plus I work in this space, and I think when it comes to relationships and when it comes to sex, there are
certain things that transcend gender. There are certain things that transcend sexuality, and these are the things that we really kind of need to talk about, Like how do you build and sus stay in healthy connections, healthy sexual relationships. If you're someone that is interested in sex, you know, how can we do that in a way that is really like inclusive and authentic. I wrote a book which is coming out early next.
Year, Well let's be in alignment with Yeah, that'd be great, But like, I did it for this reason because I think one of the biggest challenges I face is that most of and I guess this comes back to social media, most of the information on dating I see in social media is very heteronormative.
Most of the books on relationships and sex are heteronormative, and so it can feel very non inclusive for people within the queer community.
That's not my experience.
For me, I was like reading all these books and like doing my education, I'm like, I'm not here, you know, I'm not actually in this. I'm not represented in this when I was studying, when I was doing a lot of this stuff. So that was kind of why I decided to write a book that could be inclusive and just focused on skills, stools, and strategies for anyone. So yeah, I definitely think maybe having that same conversation about dos and.
Don't or green.
I would love that any anything, like, I mean, look, I'm always up for talking about dating, relationships and sex. I do it all day long. It's my favorite thing to do.
So if they wanted to connect with you, yeah, yeah, how do they do that?
Yeah?
Instagram? Okay great, Yeah, so it's just my name Lucille dot Shackleton and I post a lot of just like like an education on there about dating relationships stuff like that.
Amazing.
Yeah, I could talk to you all day.
Ready when the book January January? Great?
Yeah, yes, okay, and what can we know the book name?
Well, it's called all in All in love that yeah.
Yeah, thank you so much for your time today. Look, we are getting the wrap up from our teams all right, but that's all we have time for. Thank you so much for listening to First things first, if you love what you're here, leave us a little rating, rror review, And if.
You want us to cover anything on the podcast, actually, if you want to write in your questions you see you, we'll have them ready to go in January. I know that seems like a bit of a while where but it will go so far or we could even like I don't know, cover it sooner.
Who knows my handle is at brook dot Bluton.
Lucille is at Lucille dot Shackleton, and Maddie's at It's Maddie Mills and we'll see on the next episode, right,