Today we're recording on Gadigoo Country and.
We'd like to pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the Gaticol people.
I know, you've got to dig this.
It's like I've been given like an extra sprinkle of something.
You've got layers.
Yeah, I got layers.
I was just thinking, I'm like, we're just such beautiful storytellers.
You're making a lot of sense to that girl. No, I'm done to honest to go.
So today we have Dan Sultan in studio.
Well, hey, Dan, thank you.
How are you?
I'm good?
So before we kick off, can you just tell us a little bit about your community. Here's your mom Boddy from.
Yeah, so my community is I grew up in Melbourne in the city. My mother Eastern Irelander and goldinga Central Australia and Well East are more central and Goldine is sort of northwest from there, and that's on my mother's side. My mom's side, we also have Afghanis, so that's the camel, the Camaliers. That's where Sultan or Sultan comes from, and some Irish as well. My father's side is Irish descent.
Yeah, so is it proper pronouncing Sultan?
I think it just depends on where where you Yeah, yeah, Sultan is. I think it's pretty cool.
I actually kind of love that, Like Dan Sultan, that's when.
I'm feeling a bit more pretentious.
Oh, keeping appearances, missus, missus bucket, it's bouquet, Yeah, it's Sultan target.
Exactly.
Well, Dan, we're so excited to have you on and you've had such an accomplished career. All of your accolades, all of these achievements really put you in the top tier with some of the Australia's best icons. We're talking Troy Cassa daily, but so many others as well. What's it like brushing shoulders with these legends.
I sat, I did it. I was part of a show and there was him, Frankie Yamma, Uncle Frankie Yamma, and a couple of folks from Midnight Oil, and they were talking about the eighties and some tours they were on, and I just sort of sat in Golden age, you know, And I wasn't like, I wasn't like twenty two. I was like, you know, thirty seven. But I just remember sitting there and just yeah, being really aware that Okada,
you're like spinning out a good listen. You know, it was pretty awesome and funny and yeah, you know, just having a laugh about that time, this or whatever it is.
You know those stories.
Hey, good people, you know, especially Uncle Troy. I mean he's he's the best.
Yeah, I mean, how many golden guitars is I was.
Saying recently, He's got to be the most awarded Australian in any field, yeah, sports, anything, he would in history. And his wife too, who's at the top of her game for decades and same as him. And they've raised a family. You know, to be a success in something in your koreer, you have to sacrifice family. And I understand that narrative to an extent, but it's not necessarily the case all the time with some special people like
the Cassadalis. Have raised a really beautiful family, very amazing kids or young adults, and both of them have just been at the top of their fields for decades. You know, that family, him and Laurel heroes.
You know, it's.
Beautiful and they're nice. They're nice people and he was never heard them bring anyone down. I've never heard them, never seen him show an ounce of you know, toxic ambition or competitiveness or anything like that. Really beautiful, calm, funny.
Yeah, talented.
Well even asked like just a light hearted question about Beyonce, and he even like gave her the biggest rape.
I was like, you know, one of the most awarded country artists in our country, what do you think a cowboy cart And he's like, tell the truth, we need your sign of approval.
Yeah.
Yeah, someone who was wined this into There was someone who was nominated in that category this year. Like she's from the South, so as far as she's an amazing artist, but there was someone who's nominated in that category at the Grammys this year who used to sing reggae with an accent and now they put on a cowboy hat and they've changed their accent. And he's meant to be some kind of authority. Oh why didn't he get it. It's just like, look, it's to their own you're not
telling anyone what to do. But these are the facts, you know. So Beyonce, it's you know, this idea that she had no business winning that award or anything. It's just complete rubbish. She's an absolute boss and she can and that's the thing. It's just like like Dolly and just people like that thing totally and they're amazing, and there's always going to be naysayers, but I think the people that are those naysays, it says a bit more about them than anything else.
Yeah, I wanted to ask, like, when you were coming up and you were, you know, first, how did your eyes set on music? Who were the people that stood out for you as inspiration? Yeah.
So I've always known that I'm an artist, and I've always known that I'm a musician. So it's my earliest not even earliest memory, it's just it's just always been there. So I feel very fortunate for that. I mean, I grew up listening to, like anyone else, whatever was on the stereo in the house, but there were certainly things that resonated with me more than other things. And that was generally speaking, it was the oldest stuff, like fifties
and sixties, you know music. Dad listened to stuff from the seventies a bit Pleetwood Mac, which I didn't mind. But I loved Jimmy Hendrix. Obsessed with Jimmy Hendrix. I've been playing guitar whole life and he's just you know, amazing. And Sam Cook, notice reading. What about roy Alison, roy Albison, who's got the greatest voice that anyone will ever have, you know, an absolute genius vocalist.
There's real hearty artists that like, they weren't like this stereotypical like pop artists. They were more like the real I would take a bit more grunge, a bit more like deeper, more debt, like they've been through some stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Because I think for the time, you know, there were certainly pop I mean, yeah, you know, but maybe pop had a bit more to it then. I mean, that's not for me to say. I think that there's a lot of substance to a lot of different things these days. And I'm certainly not going to be one of those artists or songwriters that everything's shipped now and everything needs to be good and now it's ship because I don't
feel that way at all. But I think you can tell there's a difference between an act and an artist, and the word artist gets used pretty in my opinion, as an artist is that different. It gets used pretty freely. Honesty and empathy or the capacity for empathy. So I sing songs that I haven't written from time to time. If it doesn't resonate, and if I don't feel something that's that empathy, then it's it feels pointless to me. And I feel the same way as as an audience
member as well. But you know, I'm not an authority on who is or who isn't I know that I'm an authority on myself. It's none of my business, you know. But yeah, but back then, I think I think famous people used to be really talented, you know, And that might be a bit of a grab. Don't use that for the socialist because it's a bit of.
What you.
Had to be exceptional.
Well you know, you could sing, but you're an amazing drammer and you're an amazing tap dancer and like just these like talented psychos, you know. And that's still the case now. I mean you look at you know, Grande, you know, acting, singing, graded impressions, you know, things like that funny you know, great comic timing, that sort of thing. So that's still present. And as far as Australian acts
or local artists, yeah, a c DC big time. But I hear a c DC and I hear soul music when they were looking for a singer this is a while ago now. I think they got Axel Rose, which I think worked for a couple of shows and then his voice blew out and it didn't work anymore. Bless him, but you know, that's just the way it is. But Sharon Jones, who's no longer with us, great soul singer, I was like, they've got to she would kill this, you know, thinking those big So that's sort of how
I always heard it. But you know, there's there's the things that's like the representation matters thing, which is absolutely true. And i'd see uncle Arch, you know. I remember being at a festival, big festival, in a huge crowd as a kid and seeing you're the indie and you know, that's something that I'll never forget. That didn't convince me that I could do it just because they could do it, you know, but it was certainly a part of it, you know. But I saw them. I don't think they
resonated with me just because they were first nations. You know, there was great music in my opinion at the time and now, and I was there with my cousins who had come over from Adelaide, you know, and we were watching this stage. It's huge stage. It was St. Kilda Festival a long time ago, huge stage with a huge crowd and big light show and loud, and I mean they were just owning it, you know. So that's something that stuck with me.
Wow. I mean I always think about, like when I started to think about what I wanted in life in my career, Like, was there a light bulb moment for me? There was a light bulb moment for me? Was that the light bulb moment for you seeing them on stage? Or you say that you didn't have like you were innately always an artist and you felt that in yourself, but there was there a moment where a switch came on where you're like, this is what I'm going to do for a living.
I was going to ask the same thing because we talk about first lived experiences all the time, and I guess we value those like pivotal moments because we look back on them and we're like, oh, that's where we were and now we're here, Like, what was that moment for you?
I don't think I've had that moment, or if I did, I had it a couple of weeks ago.
Music.
Yeah, Yeah, there wasn't heaps of music in the house. But you know, certainly talent throughout the generations, and we didn't have much, so you know, we didn't have a lot of things. There were certainly people worse off, but we didn't have a lot of things. So, you know, piano. I would play piano at my friend's houses. And I was really lucky though I could I could remember, and
I could practice in my head. You know. Yeah, time i'd get back to whoever's place who had a piano, I've been practicing.
In your head.
Yeah, way, I was.
Yeah, my dad's a musician, but he's an optimist by a trade, so he looks at people's eyes constantly, but in his head he's like doing music things. So I kind of like know when he's like he's a great but he was saying, like he can listen to something, it's so crazy, and then like any instrument kind of pick up anything.
Hey you've met uncle, Uncle Pete.
You've met Pete, but saying it's so funny how you say pianos in like your friend's houses. Because innately we all sort of in it. And my family like we loved music, but none of us like did it. My brother knows the piano and like he loved it, but we didn't have one. So he did the exact same thing. He would like not remember music or anything, but like he would always go and play at his friend's house. I'm like, where's Troy. He's gone down to the friend's
house to like play piano. And now we all have pianos in a house.
It's crazy.
Well that was a nice marker for me. I mean, we speak about those moments and this isn't exactly what you were asking, but you know, to be in my own place with an upright piano one day, Yeah, I've got that now and my own place I'm trying. I'm working on that own my own house, you know. So my kids are you know, they work past the piano and they play it and then they wanted whatever they're doing, and that's just there.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
And so I'm really proud of that. And it was an old thing that was getting thrown out and one of those things if anyone wants this, you know. And I was a friend of a friend and yeah, it's a nice piano. It's not in tune, but to tune it up. Yeah, characters, And every time we've we've moved, which hopefully we will never move. We know, changes again, yeah, just changes. He's a bit kind of edgy, and I just think I can I can relate, you know.
I love that. Yeah, well you've just come off the back of a massive tour. You know, how many weeks has it been since you finished?
It's been what is it, Thursday? It's been one week?
One week?
Yeah, okay, he's feeling tired always.
Yeah, well I feel good.
Yeah, what's were life like?
Do you take the fan sometimes? The first show of the two was at the fore Court Opera House, four Court, and that was huge. So, again coming back to that original question, that moment, I think I left that show. You know, I've played two big crowds before, but that was both far the biggest audience that I've ever had one of my shows. And so I think after that show is what that moment?
Okay, that's so and that's it's so interesting that that's like three weeks. You're you're such a fully fledged artist, you know, and you've done so much in your career and you're having that moment now, Like I wonder how often that happens for people, if they have that moment later on in their life, I.
Think if you if you're working and if you're going for it, you you move the bar, you know. I think one thing that's really that I feel fortunate for is I remember where the bar was a long a long time ago. Yea, and friend of mine, great artists, he was on a particular radio station in Melbourne. He'd put on shows and he'd have the big street posters, and I remember thinking, that is what I want. And you know, I've had that for a long time now, but I remember that was that was a bar and
a great bar, you know. But you moved the bar that But I feel like the other day after the opera House, and not that I'm with completely without ambition, because I'm not, but it's you know, I think after the opera House, it's like I've just I'm still moving the bar, but maybe just not as quickly.
You know.
It's just like I'm just I'm just allowing myself to just, yeah, be in this space for a little bit.
Is it easy for you to be present in those moments?
Yea, it is. Fortunately, I've had a lot of big moments where I haven't been and.
I'm and do you remember them? Because I feel like.
I remember forgetting them, if that makes any I agree.
I remember not being in it.
You know.
I had a show. I used to work at the Falls Festival down in Lawn and I worked on site there. I worked. I was friends with someone who lived there and we worked together. He was my first manager, actually, Buzz, and I spent a lot of time down there through the year and literally raking the fields of Rocks Campus and New Years wouldn't be setting up their tents on Rocks.
I was digging drainage, you know, drainage routes on the dirt roads, and the stage there is a permanent structure, and I would just look at that stage and there was I was, you know, a late teen and early twenties during this period, and I'd be there all year and it was wonderful and I'd look at that stage and I think one day, one day and then it was a record I put out Black, which was in twenty fifteen, and we were booked on the Falls and I'd played the Falls a few times before that, but
this was my biggest record at the time. And the spot that I had was like five pm or four pm on that stage on the Saturday, which is the spot without being a headliner where you're going on last and it's like huge, but if you're one of the non headliners, that's a really great spot. And you know, I used to drink too much, and I wasn't drinking during the show, but I was. I'd had a drink a few days before, you know. And I don't mean i'd drink a few days I mean for the few
days before, you know. Anyway, we got there and I was on stage, and before we got on, it started raining, and it just cleared out and you just think it's just sort of nightmare stuff. We got on and the set started with like a drum intro and it was just and then I just watched like ten fifteen thousand
people come from everywhere and it was amazing. And this was my moment that i'd been I'd be on the cord bike cruising around with rakes and shovels in the in the train and I'd just be looking at that stage and I was there, you know, wow, performing but I wasn't well and I had an anxiety attack pretty soon at the at the start of that set. The set was fine and we did it, but I was hanging on for dear life for that whole set.
Yeah, survival mode.
Yeah, and I missed it.
Yeah.
And then I released my next record, Killer after that, and I was like, I won't miss it again. And we didn't get booked on the Falls again. So that's it. Okay, you know, that's it, and I've found peace with that. But I remember, I think about that moment and I'm able to especially now. I mean, I'm, you know, coming up seven years completely sober. Wow, coffee and I have some bubbles in my water.
That's phenomenal. That's an amazing feat.
Especially now. It's all about being present, and I've been. I've been lucky enough to stand on some incredible stages. I supported Vance Joy in the States and sang at Red Rocks and then it's just the other night over at the Opera House and I'm able to be there.
Yeah, take it in.
Yeah.
I had that experience at Falls, but also just in general everyday life. I'm able to just.
Be around you when you were going through that moment of drinking and partaking in things that maybe weren't so good for yourself, Like, was that a coping mechanism for you or was there something you just found as a fun thing to do or.
Do you Well, I guess it's fun until it's not until it's not. But yeah, coping definitely. And I was speaking about it with my wife before coming in speaking about you too.
Yeah, because yeah, And you know, the fact of the matter is has been First Nations, is that we are traumatized.
And to be a young First Nations person that is attaining any kind of success in the chosen field, we have to be twice as good to get half as much as each of you would know, as well as anyone else. And you know, conversely, we're going to be half as bad to get twice a condemnation, you know, which is all retraumatizing and reshaming and all of that kind of stuff.
You're surviving, You're like, I mean, yeah.
It is coping, and it is self medicating.
Yeah.
Absolutely, it's not until you start that you're actually able to start dealing with stuff.
What made you stop?
I well, there was a moment that you know, a lot of a lot of things made me stop. You know, I stopped in twenty eighteen. I had a show I was really out of it. Someone reported on it and it got picked up by National news and it was like three.
Days a bit of an unveiling was like just.
Total demonization and like even to the point that a newspaper had a picture of me on the front cover and they were like writing a story about why should we give blackfellows arts grants if they're just going to piss it against the wall and you know, things like that. I mean, I'd won like four or five areas up to that point. It was hardly pissing anything up against the wall. Absolutely, but you know, that was a narrative and it was appalling.
Now if your counterparts did that, well.
That did well. You know, boys will be boys or whatever, you know what I mean. It's or you know, young people are rock and roll and all that bullshit, which it is complete bullshit. Yeah, we all know, and I think a lot of most people know out there, you know, but it's just this narrative stuff. Look, so I was completely humiliated, you know, and it was really scary. But you know, it's an ego death.
How do your experience is great like before but before this time, like anything like in the media that kind.
No, not like that. No, it's the first time I'd sort of experienced it again, you know, you know since but now that was the first time, and you know, look that was in twenty eighteen. There were things, you know that my the way I used to drink, that would have warranted me stopping drinking from you know, two thousand and eight onwards. Two thousand and eight is when
I started to drink. And I wouldn't drink every day, all day, every day, but it would just be when I did, you know, I just couldn't trust myself, you know.
So a lot of things led to it, but it was that moment, yeah, you know, and I was like, all right, well that's enough, and I was you know, I had people around me that helped me, of course, you know, my then girlfriend who's now my wife, and I went to rehab and they spoke about the neurological side of things, which is, you know, anywhere from three months to three years is how long it takes to
reset your signapses. You know, it could be three months or and I was sinking three months and then three months was up and we got pregnant with our first kid, and I was like, well that's it. Because I always knew that I wasn't going to be a drunk parent or a party kind of guy or even you know, certainly not around the kids, but even you know, being a bit hungover the next day and being with the kids.
And I always knew, and this isn't a judgment call on anyone else, This is just what I always aspired to for myself. And she was due a year to the day of that show where I was horrors, you know, so I was like, well, it's pretty.
This is Do you believe in that sort of stuff? Like do you get superstitious about like like I mean superstitious and over general?
I mean, you believe in manifestation because when you're raking them rocks, that's what you're doing. You're manifesting that moment it happened, do you know what I mean? That's that's such a powerful visualization and then it comes to life.
And there was some advice I was given when I was a kid as well by some older rock stars. Basically there's no other way to put it, and they just said, just envision yourself doing it. And the thing is, I think before I started coping in other ways, when I was little, you know, I talked about playing piano in my head and all that sort of stuff. That
was my manifestation. I just go take myself away into myself and just hours just yeah, having this journey, Yeah, being on stage and you know when you're doing it.
I've done small stints of sobriety over the years, and last year I did about one hundred and twenty days, and that was a big since I was eighteen, probably the longest time I did feel amazing. Like I was walking down the street one day and I turned to my partner, I said, I can't tell you how great I feel like.
It's good.
It's this lightness within your soul, you know. And for me, I felt like I did it because there was a job coming that I had to be really sharp for and so I sort of put myself through this sobriety for one hundred and about twenty days was where I got to. And I'd never felt like that because since eighteen, or since even earlier, I'd been drinking, you know, and I've been doing the party thing, and the alcohol is a gateway for me, you know, for other things as well.
So I've had, like very much journeys down so many different paths that I'm just not proud of when I'm you know, intoxicated. So I have been doing these like stints of sobriety, and it's been difficult, to say the least, Like it actually isn't easy in this industry when you're totally you know, a part of events and the nature of how things and relationships work in this industry. Like you know, I'm selling my twenties. I'm hoping that you know, I continue down this road and one day I get
it right. But I wanted to ask you once you had made that decision and these years that have passed, now, do you as you go on, do you find that you're getting stronger in that sobriety aspect or do you feel like it's something that you don't even is not even a concern anymore for you.
I think it's always a concern. Yep, you know, like anything that you know is dangerous, it's always a concern. Yeah, you know out here there is you know, what do we like ten stories up or you know, eight stories up standing on the edge of that is always going to be a concern. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, even if
you don't do it that often. Yeah, you know that being said, I can be in a hotel room with a mini bar and it doesn't I don't go near it, you know, And I've never had a moment of like, oh I wish I can't be in here right now, you know, because I decided the thing is with an alcoholic and you know, and a person who you know is that way. It's all or nothing, agreed. So the music, the artistry, the work, you know, it's all or nothing.
So for me having a bit and then just being okay and just trying to sort of write it a bit or figure it out and figure out little Oh, if I do it like this, then that's all right, that's just it just doesn't work tricky. Yeah, yeah, you know. So I made that choice, and I make that choice every day. It's not my wife's responsibility, it's not my kid's responsibility. It's my privilege to be as good as I am for myself and for them. And it's certainly
my responsibility and it's an honor. And I was able to achieve excellence before I got sober many times. And yeah, it's it's so there was a there was a real confidence that came from that. Yeah, those experiences which helps definitely. But like I said, its ego death. I mean you said, for me, I was like chipping away chipping away, chipping away, and there was this husk and then in one, in one moment, that husk is gone, and fortunately for me, that there was something behind it that I could then
build yeah on because it wasn't just. It wasn't bullshit, and it wasn't just, and it wasn't lies or you know, anything like that. There was a lot of substance there, But there was a lot of substances as well.
You know, your craft was still yours.
I was born, I was born being able to do ith. I was born an artist, and I was born with that knowledge and that peace and that yeah awareness. So I'm very lucky. But I was also born with the with the work ethic to be able to do it. I was on my way to rehab, thinking I should have done this two years ago, and in a moment, in that moment, I said, well, I'm not going to say the same thing in two years.
Yeah.
Yeah, And been getting sober affect the.
Art, oh greatly. Yeah, I mean I'm making I'm better than I've ever been. We were talking about Joel before, who I made my my most recent record with, and he's worked with me when I've been affected, and he's worked with me when I haven't. That record that we made is beautiful and it means something. And I have always been as honest as I possibly could be with all of my work, which I think is essential to
being an artist. But the big changes my capabilities of how honest I'm able to be has changed because you might be able to be as honest as you possibly can, and that's a mindset and a heart set moving into something, but you might only be able to be that honest. You might not be capable of me. And now it's like, you know, so it's affected it greatly, But you know, my sobriety isn't the answer. The answer is the boundary that I've set myself. And you know, I'm sure you'd
know as well as anyone. When you set a boundary and you stick to it, it's so good for you, so good for your self esteem and moving forward and your peace. You know.
Yeah, I want to ask a few questions about music, so great, like let's talk about sobriety.
Yeah, for sure, And it can be the last thing. There's a bit of a narrative about me personally that you know, I got sober for my family and I did to an extent, but not as a father. I mean, I've been sober longer than I've been a father. Yeah, and I think that's pretty clear. But there's some I've seen some things pop up, you know, where it's like he's got sober for his kids, So that implies that I was a drunk dad, which I've never been a
drunk dad. And that also leans into some stereotypes. Yeah, you which is all very good on a real or or on a post on Instagram or wherever, and that is the case for some people. That's not the case for me. I got sober and then a year later my daughter was Jews. She arrived a week early because she knows everything.
But yeah, I'm coming.
I was sober fifty one weeks before before I yeah, you know, And I just wanted to make that clear.
I think that's a great point.
And the stereotypes, especially in the media world, like were kind of touched on, like how they liked to you know, you do one bad thing and they you sort of get demon eyed, like.
Bad thing, scary black, it's a scary blackie thing, totally scary black, scary you know, scary drunk black person, you know, and it's this thing, you know, and I've actually, you know, we deal with it every day. I've dealt with it recently and I won't say where because it's irrelevant, but you know, I was. I was in a situation recently where I was profiled. I mean, I had to speak to someone about something very important and I wasn't I'm not an aggressive person and I'm not heavy handed, you
know these days. I know when I was unwell, I'm sure that and I know it for a fact that I would have made people feel uncomfortable from time to time, and you know, so I'll just put that out there, which I'm not proud of, and that's why I got sober, amongst other reasons. But I said that was the last thing.
But that was.
But you know, it happened the other day and then I had a follow up phone call from someone where they where they told me that that sort of thing is unacceptable, and I was like, it was it had something to do with my kids, and I was like, listen, as a parent, I would do, I would react the exact same way again, and I'll react that way every day. And I didn't. I didn't say it, but I made it very clear that I knew what was going on, and you know, if I didn't look the way I look, yeah,
then this phone call wouldn't be happening. So it happens every day.
I want to ask you a question like that's on this topic. You've been in the industry now for many years, you know you would have seen a lot of these changes. Now. I feel like there is definitely more access for First Nations artists. There's you know, things that have been put in place to create a bit of a safer industry. What was it like when you first started compared to what you see today and what are some of the sort of challenges you faced.
Well, I can only speak about it from from my standpoint and the challenges I faced when I was starting in the same challenges I faced.
Okay, so not a lot has changed, except.
Maybe I think I think a lot has changed. But I think my one of my biggest struggles with the industry or with any situation is that I have always strived and I refuse to have my me being First Nations as any kind of qualifier or disqualifier, because they're both the same.
Mm hmm.
If you're if you're if this is a qualifier you know, I don't think I'm I'm one of the best First Nation singers. I think I don't think I'm one of the best Australian singers. I think I'm one of the best singers. You know, I don't want any qualifier in front of me that has anything else to do with my artistry.
Is that because it boxes you in or boxes you out.
Boxes you in. If something can box you in, then it can box you out. You know, there's a difference. You know, you look at Yrvin, it's a celebration. There's a difference between that and having a black a black fellow stage at a festival. There's a difference between celebration
and segregation. And I've always struggled with that. I played a festival when I was starting out and they put me on the World Music stage, which is fine and I was happy to play there, but they put me there because I was a blackfellow.
How often have you been put in that category?
I'm there now, Yeah, what.
Is that category? Is that just outdated?
Like it's completely vapid? Yeah, you know, but like anything is anything like that, anything that speaks about culture, well, anything that doesn't actually cut to the core of a person as an individual.
Yeah, I feel.
Is completely vapid. So whether it's and it's not culture because culture is important and there's you know, so it's not that at all. It's just this, you know. Oh, it's the stereotypes and yeah, I mean I fight it every day, you know, and so what I what I had to do is fight against that and I still have to fight against it. But you know, there's it's it's laziness on the part of a journalist or a society systemic. Yeah, they get to just say what we are and tell us what we are. If you're this,
this is where you are. You know, I'm an extremely complex, complicated individual individual. I know where I'm from, Eastern Island, and we also have Irish and Afghan on my mother's side. My father's Irish scent. My wife is Chinese and Welsh. And my kids are awesome and they know where they're from too, And she knows. My five year old knows her flag when she sees it.
She doesn't need to like constantly prove herself.
I'm just trying to I'm just trying to prolong the chip that's coming, because you know it's it's coming. You know, the chip on the shoulder because this is this is where we are, and so I have a responsibility as as a parent to prepare her for that. But at the same time, I don't want to give her my chip. You know. It's hard, but that's like any parent, I mean, how do you not just give them all your ship? You know what I mean? How do you not do that?
You know? I'll just say about my upbringing, it was difficult at times, but I had a much better childhood than my parents. Worked hard to make sure that things were better for me than they were for them, And I'm doing the same for my kids. And that's my healing, Yeah, by making sure that my kids. Yeah yeah, And it's not that I wasn't looked after, you know, but just you know, I don't purely official level. They've got the upright piano in their house.
They've got everything they need to thrive, and.
They're good at it. And they're artists already, you know. And I'll say that they are, you know, pressure, but they are.
You've spoken about how fatherhood has changed your perspective. How has it influenced the art as well? So the music the writing that you do.
Do you like music writing? Do you find it hard?
I don't find it difficult.
Do you like music writing?
I hate it, but you know, I mean I watched a few documentaries and some people don't music writing.
But I think that writing is your world, right writing?
I love it?
You love it?
No, I do love it, and I love it. I love it when it's hard, and it should be it should be hard. I mean, there are songs that come out sometimes the song can take as long to write as it does to sing it, and the first time you ever sing it, it's written, well, okay. And that's this kind of like being available and open to stuff. And I put out a song last year that I started writing when I was like seventeen, you know, and I finished it last year. So the song can take
two minutes or it can take twenty years. It's all just still the same moment, you know. So it's yeah, I think if a song is if a song is honest to my ear and to my taste, then it it will often resonate, you know. I mean I can hear a lot of songs and I hear a line in there and sometimes I just go shut up, you know. Yeah, I mean you can tell that it's just been. You know, there's a lot of songs that are written by like seventeen people and they're like big songs, and they're big.
They're big, huge songs, worldwide hits. And you know, I'm not saying that they shouldn't resonate none of my business, you know, but it's not something that I personally, No, not really.
You know, you've spoken about honesty, because I think we pride ourselves on like trying to be our most authentic self and like genuine Do you feel the pressure to continue to produce things because you have to or do you just go at your own pace and take your own stride with it.
I just do my own thing. Yeah, I've felt pressure before, just that idea of the you know, having pressure to do something or not do something. The only pressure I feel is whether I'm just being myself.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, And even that, I don't feel any pressure because I'm you know, exactly just this is it now, and I'm in a good place.
You know.
Having kids is wonderful. It's it's simple. It's like, if it's good for my kids, then I'll do it, and if it's not good for them, then I won't do it. You know, it's a very simple, simple life. And I'm never doing anything that I don't want to do. I love that, never do anything I don't want to do, and I've never done it, really, And that's not just something that's come with you know, runs on the board or you know whatever. It's something that I've always done.
And trust your instincts absolutely, because the fact is is that there aren't any rules, and there is no formula, and there is the only metric and the only way to judge any of this is if you can go to sleep at night, if you can live with yourself like at night and like make the right choices for yourself.
I feel like that's the best.
Like, you know, you can only make the best decisions then, like if you're listening to yourself rather than doing what other people want.
I mean, I have it technically, honestly.
I mean, it takes a bit to get there, for me to be to put myself sort.
Of self reflection.
I think for so long I try. I think I felt like to be successful as a black fellow, maybe as a queen man, I had to appeal to the people who would hire me, you know, so I sort of molded and shaped myself a little bit. And I think that as I've become older I'm trying to thirty in a couple of months, I feel like there's this whole journey of self rediscovery because it's like, I'm not really concerned or wanting to appeal to anyone anymore.
And looking back, do you feel like that that would have that that made any difference at the time, or in hindsight it just didn't even matter anyway? What do you think?
It probably made people happy, But then when I would go home, I would think, I'm not even interested in doing that. I'm not even myself in that moment, like
it's not really aligning with me. And then I would be the person who would deal with the sort of fallout of it, because it was an internal feeling, you know, And I think that I don't know, like over the years, I've just come to I don't know, I feel like I know myself more and get a little bit deeper within sort of understanding like myself, and then that's allowed me not to want to appeal.
And that's the thing with us, is that, you know, because it is we talk about the patriarch, and let's be clear what that is that's white men. Yeah, truly, So then there's only so many places.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So.
If you're a black fellow, then you need to compete with black fellows. And that it is. I see it. I've seen it affect us greatly. I've always tried, I've always tried to prop people up, but I've seen it
and it's difficult. And it's nothing that I that I begrudge anyone for, I understand, but there's only so much room for there's a quota, and I wouldn't I would never speak on what that must be like for a woman, you know, of course, but I know as a black man, you know, we're not we're not anywhere near the top of the pile, you know, and we're just dangerous and
we're scary and all that stuff. And so there's like this competition that we're forced into because this is the world and this is the society, and there can only be so many and so I always just completely and utterly refused to take any part in it whatsoever.
Well, I think that's a beautiful place to wrap this. But we want to say thank you so much for coming on our pod, Like we really appreciate that you've taking the time to come in and.
Coming post tour as well.
It's fine, there's no I don't you know. We take it really easy.
It's really nice, excellent, no hangovers, not for anyone, and they're all fine, they're healthy, they can have a dream. But there's one of those.
Boundaries, you know.
Yes, I love that.
Good. It's a nice thing.
As an artist, you should really, you know, have those boundaries. Yeah, I love that. Thanks, thank you so much, thank you, sure you're honestly, that was the best chart. But that's all we have time for today.
If you love what he leave us a rating or a little review, and if you want us to cover anything on the pod that makes you, reach out by our socials.
My handle is at Brooked Up one and Maddie's handle is at It's Maddie Mills.
But we'll see you guys next week.