Before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge the custodians of the land on which we record, and today for me that's the Gatigel people of the eur nation.
And for me Zoraundry people of the Cooler nation.
Hi, Hi, how are you good?
How are you?
Oh? Look, I'm doing all right. I feel like it's at that time of the year again where my ears start to perk up and I start to hear a lot of conversations about our community. It's a controversial time, I must say, for our country. But I also think that we have mixed feelings about this date. And I also think that you know, as you've mentioned earlier, that you're a bit exhausted by this conversation a little bit.
I think I'm fatigued from many things, but I think it feels a little bit different to me, like normally this time comes around and I am exhausted about having the same conversation. Yeah, but I think I'm just now getting at my teather where it's just I feel like I'm a little hamster on a wheel or it's Groundhog Day and I'm repeating the same shit the.
Same day every year.
Yeah.
Well, I'm seeing no change.
Yeah, I mean, I feel you and I hear you, and this episode for our listeners is a bonus episode to get our take on January twenty sixth or whatever you call that day. You might call it Australia Day, Survival Day, Invasion Day, but it is a date that we believe and we both have a similar opinion to each other when it comes to what our stance is,
and it's that the date should change. This conversation happens every year and our community is brought into the fold of this yarn time and time again, but yet there hasn't been much change. So I think that this bonus episode is just getting our take on how we feel about the day and why we believe that it's important to change the date.
This holiday is a new holiday typically, like this day is a new day. I think in the eyes of history, it's only been around since ninety four. I'm a ninety five baby, so it's been around for thirty one years. Yeah, so it's really new into the establishment of public holidays
and days to celebrate. But since then, I think our family and community have been protesting that this day that they established wasn't right from the get go, and they've protested many many many years to have the date changed or take pretty much abolished.
Yeah, there's definitely been a shifting conversation over the years. I would say, like, yeah, there was you know, the change the date debate, and then there was some parts of our community and people outside of our community that wanted to abolish the date.
Do you either give context to both of those for our new listeners or people who don't know the difference between them both?
Yeah, absolutely, So the argument for changing the date is that this is should be seen as a day of mourning. This, you know, was the date that a Brooke Bony once said it beautifully on the Today Show that it was the start or the end for our people. And I believe that that perfectly sums up why this date is
important to be a day of mourning. It is a day that really symbolizes the hostility and the brutal invasion and colonial regime that has brought so much trauma and so much grief to our community that we continuously live with through intergenerational trauma. And I believe that, you know, changing the date is a super important conversation that our community should be having and the understanding why we should
be changing the date. My opinion actually has evolved over the years as I've you know, gotten older and become more aware of the context to this date for our community, but also wider Australia. The reason I believe that we should change the day is because deep in my heart, I love our country. I believe that this country represents
so much for so many people. I believe that we inherently are good people, and I think that this country is home to many more people and diverse communities than just our community, the first nation's community, and I think we need to respect that because it isn't what it once was, but it is what it is now, and I believe that we should be respecting the diversity and
the multicultural society that we have. But that also has to coincide with respect for our people and the country that was here pre colonization, and that is super important to me for the wider community to understand that this country isn't a young country when it comes to the land and the culture. It's a very old, ancient country and historically the education system has only ever referenced the
last two hundred and fifty years. And I believe that this country has a much longer history book than two hundred and fifty years. There's evidence that we're the oldest living civilization on Earth sixty plus thousand years. Now. If that isn't something to celebrate as a nation and something to respect and even more in terms of the loss of what that is, then I feel like we as a collective don't really understand what we have in our hands.
And for me, changing the date is about recognizing that history is about respecting what that is and what that was, and how much that our country depends on that connection to culture and land, even when a lot of people don't recognize that. So changing the date means that there it can be another day in our country's calendar where we come together and we celebrate what this country is
for so many different people. That doesn't mean that it's mutually exclusive to the trauma and the impact or colonization that has happened for our community. Some people in our community but also outside of our community, think that these things are mutually exclusive, that you can't celebrate Australia or Australia Day on a different date. I'm saying because of the trauma that has impacted our community and what colonization has done to our culture and community. I think these
things coexist. Now. You know, we have on one hand, a beautiful nation with so much opportunity. It offers so much to so many different communities as well, But it doesn't mean that then we forget what that has also done to our community and the brutal trauma that has been passed down due to colonization. So I think that it's about having an approach where we respect all people and honor our first nation's culture.
Yes, I think that was the key word that I was kind of thinking of when you said honor. I think respect comes to mind, and I think they go hand in hand. I think the difficult thing for me and frustrating thing as well, is that a lot of people will argue, and I'm talking mostly like non Indigenous people will say, well, I don't understand the connection to land, or I don't have the connection to land. You don't necessarily have to have any type of connection to land
to acknowledge other people's connection to land. And I think that's like the ignorance that I'm experiencing is that, oh, it happened so long ago.
No it didn't.
This is a new country in so many different ways, and it's built off genocide, like and yet we don't have a national day where we can mourn. It's yet, Yeah, it's it's a day of celebration where we celebrate what. You know. We spoke to Usher the other day and I said, I don't really feel that we have an Australian culture, and he argued that we do, and I had to I kind of disagree, Like I feel like we don't really have like a national identity because we're
not really full forward. We're not forefront of telling the truth. Like as a nation, we can't even tell the truth of our history. So how do we have a national identity if we can't tell the truth. So I have a very difficult and frustrating experience trying to understand these people that argue, oh, well, I don't have a connection to land, therefore I don't need to acknowledge it.
And it's like it's just so disrespectful.
And I think this is one thing that I would love to encourage, But it's like, how do you convert the eyes that are people's eyes aren't open, you know what I mean?
Well, I believe that we're in a time right now where the political climate is allowing people to really show these extreme views and divisive views.
Do you think that's really scary.
I think it's scary, But I also think it comes at a time where we see around the world, especially in the West world, there are these political figures, and I'm talking about Trump for instance, who are able to get to these top positions by not having a moral compass. These very extreme divisive views, whether it's homophobic, whether it's racially motivated, those ideologies trickle down and I see it currently happening with the Peter Dutton election. Well, let's elect
his election campaign. I get Australia back on track. I just think that that is directly taking the Donald Trump approach and being divisive and one of the main things that he's pushing for, which is just so ridiculous. And this is why I'm bringing it up around jan twenty six, is because he is saying that if he was to be put into leadership and he was to become the Prime minister, that he would not allow the Aboriginal flag to be flown on the hubor bridge or at national
press conferences. He's saying that having three flags is a divisive for our country. Yet all I'm hearing from him is divisive language. He's saying that if he becomes Prime Minister that he will take away funding, crucial funding, and do an audit on Indigenous programs. Another thing is the cash list debit card. What' that's saying to me? Going back, he is literally picking out parts of the White Australia policy. Yeah,
he is putting them back into action. And for me, I really believe that if he is to get into power, which I have no doubt that it's a possibility, that it's going to be a really scary time, not just for our community, but for the marginalized communities around our country. One of the other things that I wanted to mention around jan twenty six, what is the issue with changing the date for the wider community? What is their take
on it? Like, I want to understand why is it so important for them not to change the date, Because what we can tell you is why it is important for us to change the day.
I want to know too, I know why it's so important to you to have that that day?
Is it the public holiday?
Talking about the national identity and wanting to celebrate that. You can do that on any day and if you want to cling to what you see is Australian culture and celebrate that, it might be the fact that you're you know, immigrant family and you're celebrating the opportunity that you've had maybe to create a better life for you
and your family. Or you might be some you know, white Aussie who really loves the beach and the barbecue and the thongs culture and the VB and that's what you think is Australia, and that's what you want to celebrate, But don't do it on the day that it.
Really was the start of.
The start of the end for our community. And I really believe that Jan twenty six needs to be a public holiday. There needs to be recognition there, There needs to be respect on that day given to our community. But you can't then dance on the graves of the people that we lost on that day. For me, that is so outrageous. Even the concept of celebrating on g twenty six, it's like you're celebrating the start of a genocide.
You're celebrating the start of a colonial regime, which for me, the Australian flag triggers I think about the Union Jack on the Australian flag right, and for me it's really hard to be connected to that flag whenever I see it flying. And it's not because I am so connected to the Aboriginal flag that I don't see myself in the Australian flag. It's the fact that the Union Jack for me, represents the start of colonization in this country and how brutal that was for my community. How can
I stand up and be proud of that. I think that symbolism is super important when it comes to what our values are and moles are as a country.
Beyond symbolism it is, I think there's so much more that people will not have understand unless they pick up a fucking First nation's book or someone story or read something, or talk to an Aboriginal or to our Australia under person and have a yarn with them. But it shouldn't be always up to us as well, like this should be a national incentive too, like to support our First Nations people, to encourage to be this nation to be built on unity and mutual respect and truth telling, which
I always mentioned before. I think once we acknowledge the truth telling, I think hopefully in time. I don't know how much more years We can keep having this conversation until something changes. But we need to keep pushing the fact. We need to acknowledge our history and it's a black history. It's First Nation's history. Sovereignty was never seated. We need to understand what that means. We need our Australian audience. I put quotation Australian because I genuinely don't love the
fact that on my passport I'll have Australian. I'm like, I cannot identify with that.
In a way.
In a way I understand, I can understand that, I can triggering.
Like I just want to put I'm Nunga, like, yeah, that's where I'm from. That's the specific place where I'm from. The first the lands that I was built and born on, built as if I was a building, you know what.
I think things would change, right. I believe if the country was unified and there was an understanding and respect collectively for our First Nations people, for our culture, for what was he before colonization, I believe as First Nations people, we would then feel more connected to the idea of being Australian.
I agree, yes, can that be great?
Yeah? Yeah, But I feel like there's a long way to go there, and I'm I'm not sure if you know, I don't know what There's many different, obviously opinions from our community. But I so agree with you with the fact that it can be really hard to understand or to feel a sense of patriotism for Australia. I feel it's difficult sometimes to connect with the Australian flag.
We have so much potential as a nation, and I think one of my frustrations, and I think that's why I asked you, is it scary, because I'm so scared of the people that are being selected as leaders because they don't, like you said, they don't have that moral compass and they're allowing for these extreme, extremist sort of behaviors that aren't quite They're impactful, but not positively, you know.
And I'm concerned because when I studied leadership in high school and throughout my life, I do, you know, little leadership things for my youth work and social work in general. One of the things that they, you know, do as a leadership course is you have to discover and understand your values to know what you're working towards. So what are these people putting on their fucking white boat, Like what are their values like disrespect and homophobia and sexism?
That's your values. That that's what concerns me. And these are the people that we're voting in. And that makes me think, Okay, if these people are voted in on that scenario and who the people are ticking that box for that person to be in, are they also having those same values?
And it's a ripple effect down.
I get that, and you definitely articulated that so well. But that is just so concerning that people live their life with that much hate.
Yeah. Well, the thing for me, what I'll say to you is that how I view it is white supremacy.
Yes, it is about how all encompassing of what that is.
So when I think about the leaders who are currently valuing for that top position, right, I don't see a lot of empathy in their souls. I don't see a lot of empathy in the way that they're talking to the Australian people. But all they're talking about is not being divisive. Yet the language that you use is super divisive. The language that you use is racially motivated at discriminating towards First Nations people, especially when it comes to government
benefits and when it comes to government funding. So you're telling me that you don't want to be divisive, But the first thing that is on your agenda when you're going to be stepping into power is coming for the First Nations community, which is defunding programs that are crucial in communities that are going to keep young First Nations
men from committing suicide and going to jail. You're going to take any social benefits from the hands of First Nations people and give them a debit card, so there is no self determination. So those things say to me that there is a clear, clear ideology that you don't want First Nations people to succeed. You don't want First Nations people to thrive. What you want is you get to control the community. You get to be the person that puts the perimeters around how much they can succeed,
how much they can have self determination. And for me, that is hugely, hugely problematic and scary, and it reminds me of person who is less empathetic and more selfish, and it reminds me that it only takes for someone like that to get into power for the country and the culture of the country and the unnational identity to be changed. And I think this has come from the voice. I think that the KNOW for our community has been
super detrimental. I believe that us getting a KNOW in the referendum has given a message to the wider community to not be interested, to not respect, to not have any empathy, and to disregard what is best for First Nations people, because it's saying that they don't want us to have a voice, they don't want us to have self determination, They legit want to control us like they
did at the start of this country. So I feel like there is a real scary tone to politics right now, and I feel like we could be gone backwards.
Oh that actually made me really upset.
Yeah.
I was just listening to you talk and I was just really feeling like the weight of all your words because I'm deeply and so proud of my culture, and I think I've continuously advocated and tried to recreate the narrative and constantly fight and push and it's so exhausting.
I'm tired.
I'm tired of having this conversation.
Yeah, but it.
Just this goes to show like a lot of people would just be thinking, oh, well, this is just a day, but this conversation has just represented how much more complexity in nuance there is to this conversation and this day.
And you know how personal this goes. When we talk about the No on the Voice referendum. You ask First Nations people in our industry how many calls they got after the Voice was voted for no, how many calls they got before, and how many calls they got after for work. If there isn't a subconscious trickle down effect that has happened, not just in our industry but across
the board. Yeah, it has been so obvious to us people before we got that no in the referendum, when the country voted no, there was work out there for First Nations people to share our experiences, to voice our opinions. After the no, there have been so many less opportunities and the only people who can will be affected by that are us and mob.
Yeah we yeah, we feel the way that.
Yeah, I agree. I mean I haven't had as many brand stuff reaching out to me in especially a lot of queer stuff as well, because I'm not representing a queer relationship at the moment. But I think it's the opportunities that you know, they have been taken away because of a national vote, and it's again, it's the hands of other people. It's not my own community. It's like, I don't know, Maddie, I'm just a little bit over it.
I understand, I get it. I think what I want to see moving forward, and let's wrap it up with maybe our dreams and hopes, say let's try and get there. What I want to see moving forward is that First Nations people aren't tokenized, that we are taken seriously and that we are respected, and that the urge of our community to change the date isn't something that is trivial. It is deeply personal and it is a deep slap in the face and disrespect to our community for people
to be celebrating on jan twenty six. I hope that moving forward, as a country, we come together, we can be on the path to understanding our national identity collectively and one day, one day we can be proud to be Australian as well as Camilleroy First Nations. That's the dream.
I think we need to create more beautiful spaces that are respectful, that are inclusive through all types of identity, history and reconciliation. I think we need to look beyond reconciliation being symbolic.
I think it needs to be.
Action, action.
I think ultimately, I think one thing that I would love is to see more empathy in this nation is to have that as our Australian identity and have that as our Australian values. That that is something that unites us, is our empathy for other people. We know we could be a good country. We know that we have good
people here too. You know, there are people that will that will walk down the street and smile and say how you're going, and you feel connected to them, even though they're a complete fucking stranger.
In different race and from a different community.
And I think if we had national values that we.
Could all work towards and it was.
A part of our culture and our identity, and we move towards that together, then I think, you know, I can only hope that the best will come and that we will all feel included, whether it is our obviously our first nation's community at the forefront, but I think our you know, minorities, and our queer people, our immigrants like I just that would be my hope. And I think the grassroots programs, the focus and intention in them
are so important. They're the ones that do the most work and the most change and have the most impact I believe, on people directly and indirectly to families, communities, minorities like I think we need to understand that those grassroots programs and those focuses are so crucial to closing the gap.
You know, I would say just touching on that, and I think it's probably a good place to wrap up. But when it comes to closing the gap, if you haven't had an experience as a first nation's person or lived as a first nation's person, you need to close your gap when it comes to what is good for our community.
Honestly, closing this episode off, I would really love again to encourage individuals to reflect a lot on jan twenty six, and I think reflection is really important to self improvement and understanding and educating and again empathy. I would encourage people to attend the Invasion Day rallies that are all over the state, which we will obviously include in our source notes. We encourage you guys to go do your own cultural education and research. We have the internet, fucking
ai it if you need. We know that we all have access to our phones. It is not that hard. And I'm very sick of hearing the ignorance. The ignorance is loud, it's very deafening, and I just want to encourage you all to do the work, whether you're an ally, whether you're or not, I really do encourage Obviously we'd love you to be an ally, but I also don't want to use that word too lightly because it is important that the people do say that they're an ally are doing the work.
And I think the reason behind wanting that so much is that we can all feel like we are a part of this country, Australian. We can all one day say we are proud to be Australian. That's our two cents for jan twenty six. I mean, we're not going to talk about this again until you know, Bloody rolls around next year, how annoying. Let's hope it's changed by then and the date isn't remaining the same.
We look forward to the next episode and honestly, go check.
Out our source notes. Stay Deadly, Stay Deadly,