When Passion Meets Exhaustion: Setting Boundaries

Chief , why don't you give us a little background on you and tell us , before we get into our topic today , just tell us a little bit about your career and kind of how you got started and how you've just taken over every role and just worked your all the way up to battalion chief ?

And it just left me wanting to know more about the medical field and at least know some first aid . But once I got involved in the EMT basic class just sucked me in .

I started off as a volunteer in North Logan fire department in Northern Utah and then , you know , fell in love with it and went through all the fire programs , love technical rescue , love working with ropes .

I've now been at logan fire 22 years , worked my way up from the emt basic to an advanced emt , which is the intermediate emt , back then to a paramedic , captain , engineer , then captain , then now battalion chief over a shift , and I love it , never want to do anything else . You know , I've had a lot of other experience in my life with computers .

I got involved early in computers and in the internet , which I think we'll talk about a little bit later here .

It's not like you just exist in place for so long and you get handed promotions , like it's a ton of work to test , promote and interview and you're often having to do that several times for several years before you get some of those positions . What would you attribute to you ?

Not getting like burned out from the process over the last 22 years , being able to keep the drive , keep the ambition and continue not only contributing to the fire department but also growing in your own role and and getting to where you are today .

I think you have to find the thing that works for you and through these podcasts , through for me , through books , through just talking to people , they share with you the ways that they deal with it and it's changed throughout my career , I think early on I carried a pager everywhere . I wanted to hear every call .

I loved it and people would say , well , that's just going to burn you out , and I don't think so . I think it kept me excited . It was really fun . Later on , it became change . I needed change . I needed to go to a different station . I needed a different captain . I needed to promote . I needed to go challenge myself by taking classes .

When I started getting stagnant , I started staying in the same place . That's when I started thinking , man , maybe I should do something else , maybe I should go to another department . I started seeing more of all the little things that we can find that are not great . They're a little rough at the fire station . It's not always perfect .

It's a very stressful job , but I think that change was really important for me . I've always had a good family backup and people that supported me . My wife is one that likes to hear the stories of the fire station , so I think that's really been important for me . I can go home and tell her what's happened .

In fact she gets a little bit upset if I don't , and she hears about it later . So that helped a ton . And then I've learned over the years kind of my limitations . I've learned about myself and my boundaries and the expectations I have for myself and for others . And I've learned to do things for myself .

And what I mean by that is I've learned to do things because I want to do them and because it's my own pride and it's my own reasons . So , for instance , I remember getting kind of upset about patients who would call us over and over .

They wanted you to take care of them but they wouldn't take care of themselves and they just you almost felt like they weren't worthy of your care , that they weren't deserving of what you provided . And how do you manage a career 20 , 30 years and feel like these people aren't deserving of my care ? You can't . That's not the way you should think .

As a firefighter , as a paramedic , and I realized that , no matter who the person was , no matter whether I thought they were abusing the system or using government aid or whatever .

I had to render their care the best way I could for me , because of my own reasons , because I was a really good paramedic and that's the care I was going to give to people every single time . That I was going to be the guy that found the problem , every single time , that I would do all the work that I needed , do it right every single time .

And I didn't start off that way . I got better at it and usually the reason I worked at it and became better at it because I screwed it up , you know . So it's one of those things that I think you have to look at yourself and want to constantly be better .

And it's one of the hardest things at the fire station because it weighs on you really heavy all the time . But it's the neatest thing too . It's what really motivates me is I don't feel this huge , obnoxious , overwhelming weight . I can feel enough of it to be better , but then let it drive me forward and let it .

Let it be fun and I really do feel like it's . It's fun to improve a little bit each day , and then you have to let go of the old . You know , as I became an engineer , I was no longer as much of a medic , and as it became a captain , I was no longer an engineer or a medic .

And so those skills have left you know in some ways , and that's hard , but you gain new ones and you try to be the best and you try to be inspired . I really am inspired by the younger generation .

I think the energy that I get comes from being able to lead people who are so energetic and they're so driven and they just want to do the best job they possibly can , and that keeps me going . It's pretty neat .

It's like waking up and first thing in the morning you're ready to go . But then also applying that to sometimes a change in attitude , you know , or a change in skill set or a change in it's not just your circumstance or environment , but when you're willing to self-improve and change , you're always trying to change something .

I think that's , yeah , a good way to rest and you know , in this scenario , rest is the opposite of burnout .

Right , I want to circle over to Tyler for a minute , because I don't know if we've ever talked about your story a lot , with coming from the corporate world for 15 years and then having your own change dramatically to full-time fire , taking a little bit of a pay cut .

His name was Dr William Evans . I was asking him one day how do you do it for so long ? He's very successful Patients like him and I was just like , how do you have the energy ? And he's like I treat every patient like , for whatever reason that they have , this is the worst thing in the world that can happen for them and it's my job to help them .

And the harder I try , the better I get and the more fulfillment I get when I try .

So I kind of use that in the corporate world where I started out and the best I could do was like make a single donor's day better by talking to them or being a really good phlebotomist , to moving into leadership positions and then , similar to what the chief co-op says , your skills change . And so I'm not dealing with those donors every single time .

Now I'm dealing with my fellow coworkers , my employees and when they bring me a problem . This is a big problem and I need to fix it , whether it's a scheduling issue or problems at home or you know that kind of stuff .

So I use that to help kind of drive me and keep me engaged for as long as I could the last couple of years that I was at the plasma center . It was interesting , I learned a lot . It was really hard . But I remember I had this very distinct moment in my life where I was like I can't do this for the rest of my life .

I got to find something that I can do because I'd been there for 15 years and the thought for doing it for another 15 years was just

like insurmountable . And actually I was working with Logan city just started a part-time firefighting program and I was part of that . I was talking to my wife one day .

I was like hey , man , like you know , I would go to work at the plasma center at four or five o'clock in the morning and I would get done at two and then I would go and I would spend eight to 10 hours at the fire department and my wife would be there .

I would get home from work and I would talk to her and then I would come home at like two or three o'clock in the morning for the fire department and she's like I just want you to know , like I was talking her ear off . And she's like , okay , you got to go to bed . Like you got to go to bed , like you got to go to bed , I got to go to bed .

But she's like I want you to think about something . Think about how you were when you got off of work from the plasma center and how you felt , and think about how you feel now . You know and how you're talking to me . You're a completely different person and that was probably the first little seed in my brain that started to grow .

I was like , huh , wow , you know , like there is a difference , like I do feel more fulfilled and you know it may be that it was new , but it uh , there's something drawing me towards it . And it wasn't anything new . Like I said , I was volunteering with North Logan . I did that for 12 years or so before the part-time thing happened .

But you know , stuff happened and I ended up leaving that facility manager , that center manager position for a base level firefighter , aemt . I was making about a third of what I was as a center manager . And no , my , again I was talking to my wife and I was like , hey , I think I have to do this . She's like , duh , do it .

I was like , okay , that that all sounds good , but let's , let's run the numbers here . And she's like , it doesn't matter , we'll make it work , you know , we'll , we'll figure it out . So , with her support , we , we did it and we figured it out and it has been amazing . It has been awesome . Yeah , it's a new adventure every single day .

I like being one-on-one with the patients . Again , it takes me back to the very base level position at the plasma center , when I was just hanging out with , you know , we were screening 50 donors in eight hours and I could talk to them and get to know them and , you know , fix these certain things or you know whatever .

But yeah , starting from the bottom , we're , you know , in the process of working our way up and it's , it's been pretty fun , very challenging , but very fun yeah .

You know , on paper , not financially but just time-wise , and effort and energy wasn't probably that different . Like they're long hours , they're hard hours , Lots of things stressful , so what ? I guess , how would you put that in why one weight was easier to bear than another ?

Because , and I'll point out , even now , in the middle of medic school right , the weight hasn't gotten any lighter . Like you're in the , you're in the thickest part of starting out the career all over again , and it's a pretty heavy , pretty heavy weight right now . Yeah , it seems like the drive hasn't slowed down at all .

And that really , I mean I could feel that , and now that I'm in that role I still feel that it's a calling . It's not just something that I do , it's this commitment . We make an oath to the citizens that we protect and I really feel that oath .

I want to be the best medic that I possibly can , the best firefighter , because that's what I want for my family is our organization showing up for them . So the weight changes , I mean when I was a center manager , of course I was , I was salary , and it was 24 seven . If there was a problem , it came back to me .

It doesn't matter if I was on vacation , it doesn't matter if my wife was having a baby , if there was an issue and they couldn't figure it out , it came back to me .

And so I got used to having that feeling of always being , always being on , always being not in charge , but always being ready , mission ready , always being just at whatever beck and call weather .

I went in and I worked for 12 hours that day and then somebody called in and the closer called in and I had to go back to work and I had to spend another four or five hours there . I just got used to this feeling of always working . It was funny . I was talking to someone the other day and they're like how much money do you actually make ?

And I was like I don't know enough . I've budgeted my life appropriately and I just don't pay attention to it . It's not like you know , I'm counting down the hours and I have my hourly wage figured out and all this stuff . It's just . It's just something that I'm used to doing because that's what I did when I was a salary employee and it doesn't .

It doesn't really change a whole lot , and so the the weight is different , but it's way more enjoyable Instead of laying in bed thinking about oh man , I have half a million dollars worth of product in a freezer and if the freezer changes by five degrees , that's the difference between that being worth half a million dollars and that being worth a hundred thousand

dollars , and you know that kind of stress there versus like laying at night , laying in bed at night and thinking like , oh man , I hope something awesome happens and they need someone to come and fill in at a station , or like that excitement of carrying that pager around waiting for those calls , missing out on those awesome experiences that you get to go help

people in the worst times of their life .

I think the same thing applies right , like the weight you can lift heavy things in either of those scenarios . But , man , when there's purpose behind it , you feel motivated , you feel like progress and I think that's pretty awesome . Um ,

we've , in both of your stories you kind of mentioned a lot of it seems like there's a lot of planning , but also in a lot of budgeting and also with time .

You know , I think that's an important part and kind of what I wanted to address a lot today is because I think with the job of working for a fire department , you have that passion and then you just feel this fire to help , like I want to help this department be the best department that's ever existed .

And so sometimes that ambition comes across and taking on every extra project you can to help , you know , with website stuff or fitness stuff or whatever , you're just always giving everything . You got all skill sets , you know all hands on deck to try to push the department forward . But I think over time that's not really a sustainable drive .

Or if you're not doing it with the right purpose , right , Like if you're doing extra things to get the promotion , like that's a recipe for burnout , Because if you don't get the promotion or once you get tired of the promotion , you know all that extra work you did feels like unappreciated . So having the right purpose behind it is important .

But what have you guys found with all like ? And maybe we can start with you , Chief , because I know with your skills with websites and computers and especially in a fire department and over the last 22 years , where a lot of people probably didn't know much about computers .

You probably got asked to do a ton of stuff that necessarily wasn't in your job description as a firefighter , and so how did you manage that , how did you not get burned out by it , and kind of , what are some things you've learned , as far as you mentioned earlier too , about setting those boundaries and how to budget your time and energy ?

I do think that at some point the disappointment of not getting promoted we brought that up After you've been here a little while and then the newness , the excitement of getting to do this job , kind of wears off a little bit . It seems mundane .

You need to renew that first of all , but it's going to weigh on you a little bit and it's going to maybe that money that you gave up you start to think about and the sacrifice that you made . We all make it . Whether you're going to paramedic school , you're advancing in your career .

You make these sacrifices and if you're making them for the department , I think you're going to be disappointed . I do . I think you need to make them for yourself and you do it .

I mean , I spent a ton of time going through classes and schools and once I started doing it for myself , I started doing it for my own pride , for my own knowledge , to be able to lead my team to keep them safe . It was very satisfying and it never I never feel bad about it .

I never feel like the department doesn't appreciate it because I never did it for them in the first place . But yeah , I had a really unique skill which may sound a little weird now because we're you know this was 20 years ago . Nobody knew anything about computers Like we'd have wireless anywhere . Right , there was no wireless at the fire station .

There was barely cabled Cat5 Ethernet connections . The computer systems took a lot more effort and a lot more maintenance than they do now . I was one of two guys when I started that knew anything about it . I took over the website , started doing the fire department's website . I tore an ACL on a knee playing basketball off duty .

Because I had skills in building websites . They actually sent me over the city I believe the chief's exact words were prostituted me to the IT department or something like that . It was pretty funny , but I had a unique set of skills , I guess . So they sent me over there , which was a crazy neat opportunity for me .

Really it actually brought about a whole nother career path for me , some side money If I ever got hurt . I knew I could fall back on that . So it was a really neat opportunity . But in doing that I gained a lot of responsibilities at the fire station .

I had these ends with the network , with the servers , with every computer that went into these mobile data computers that we put in every one of our engines and our rescues , and I actually programmed some dispatching software , well , really kind of a display . So now we use Spillman and they have a display that we put up at the stations that show every call .

We built that from scratch and put it up on the board and we could see every call that would go out , which was really neat . And we did it in a way that was free for everybody that used it in the entire county . We had a whole login system .

I mean it was pretty complex , took a lot of time and anyway you get involved in all these things right , it's really easy and you get a little bit of mission creep .

You know you start taking on a little bit more and more and pretty soon we had developed all these systems , every cardiac monitor , every modem that they connected to to send in our heart rhythms , everything to do with computers or technology .

I ran at the fire station and for a while the chief at the time even once I was done building the website I had gotten back to full duty he kept me . He would pay me to help do things at the fire station . Of course I was still maintaining the city's website . They were paying me time and a half to do that . It was pretty sweet .

I knew it would end at some point . And then we changed chiefs . The new chief said I don't need all that . And fair enough . Like I didn't expect anything I don't need , I'm not going to pay that overtime . We don't need that .

Everything's running really well , which if you know anything about technology , that's because you put a lot of time into it to keep it running well and you know you can just stop doing that stuff . Well , it doesn't really work like that .

So I didn't have the time to spend in off-duty doing it , so I would spend it on duty and by doing that I wouldn't work out . I wasn't studying If I wasn't on a call or doing a report . I was working on loading Well , and all these programs were loaded actually on the devices . So you had to go around to every device and load a program .

Now we just log into them over the internet , right Software as a service . But back then you had to load a client on every single computer for all these different programs that we use . So it was just a ton of time . And you're just maintaining all this . You're using these skills that you spent thousands of hours and thousands of dollars learning .

And did I get paid any more for it ? No , while guys were out watching TV , I was working maintaining what we called the fire cat of this display up on the wall . I was maintaining the MDCs and all the cardiac monitors Because that knowledge the admin staff would go to a meeting that come out .

Hey , I've been assigned to build a two-year calendar for training , but I don't know anything about Excel . Can you show me how to do this ? Can you help me set it up ? Hey , I need to share all these files to so-and-so . Can you come help me do that ? And so you know I got to where I felt like , well , I'm doing admin's job . You know what I mean .

Like you in your mind . Here's these thoughts that and it kind of culminated one day when we were talking about the cardiac monitors . They needed an upgrade and it was going to be a big one . So it was going to change how the functionality of the monitor worked , some of the menus that you went through .

So we couldn't just plop it in there and let everybody figure it out on a cardiac patient one day . You know , we needed to go train on it and then we needed to roll it out . So the guys who were in the admin staff asked me to come to the meeting an EMS committee meeting teach them how to use what was going to change everything that happened .

Well , this wasn't my job . I wasn't in charge of the cardiac monitors besides , just the technology to make them work . But the guy that you know didn't know how to explain it , didn't know what had happened , and I did . So he asked me to come . Well , I showed up the next morning for the meeting and nobody was there . Thought I was in the wrong place .

Thought I was . You know what's going on ? Weren't we having a meeting here ? And the secretary at the time said oh they , it got canceled and it just irritated me . You know I was mad . No-transcript chief was waiting for me . It was like , hey , let's go for a ride . So he hopped in his truck and we went for this ride .

And he says you know , I just wanted to explain like I had this really important meeting and my time's really valuable and that's why we had to cancel this meeting and I said , well , I get it , your time's valuable . My problem is mine's not worth shit , and that's how I said it to him and I he was .

I don't know if you have to edit that off the podcast at this point .

There were so many other things that I was doing that I would put together a whole program to check trucks and we use a system now called PS tracks and , and it's just so well organized you can do it on your phone . Well , tracks , and it's just so well organized you can do it on your phone .

Well , I built that , I programmed that over 10 years ago and the battalion chiefs at the time wouldn't bother to learn it . Right , I put this whole system together . They wouldn't bother to learn it . Guess who asked me to do that ? Nobody , nobody did . You know I saw a problem . I wanted to fix the problem . Nobody asked me to do that .

I was irritated when they didn't care . Nobody asked me to put all my time aside and just work on the computers to the detriment of everything . I just did it . You do it because you love it , this stuff that we talked about , how much we're driven . It's so wonderful . It really is . It's the neatest thing ever . I am so glad .

For 22 years I've done something that I've never once , never one day have I ever said I don't want to go to work . There's days like I'd maybe rather be doing this , but never once did I not want to go to work . And here I am now just bitter about it and what I came to realize was it's my own fault .

And I think about , if you guys , you guys read extreme ownership , jocko willicks , so pretty macho , you know , pretty pretty navy seal , but you know they talk about owning stuff and they said if you get shot in the head , it's your own fault . I'm like , how is that your own ?

Well , you shouldn't have put your head there , you know , and it's you know that's a little over the top , super macho , but it really is the case . Like if you , if I got abused my time , it got abused . That was my fault . It really was like I could have said no at any time .

I could have said I'm willing to do this much right , but I can't do everything . I didn't . I just let myself get abused . I really did and you know I put my heart and soul into these projects with the expectation that people were just going to .

I mean , I had some really good successes right , firecat and this software that everybody used and loved and now I'm trying to build another system like that . And then when nobody cared , it was devastating . But then I had to think like but nobody asked me to do it . You know it goes back to I do it for me .

If I do those things , I go the extra mile , I take on an extra assignment . It's for me and I found that I have to do that to be happy at the fire station . I have to assume more responsibility . I have to be part of something extra .

If it's this podcast , supporting your brother , sharing your stories , if it's really getting into technical rescue or the honor guard and going and showing up at scouting events and funerals and doing those things , do it because you love it and do it because you want to for your own reasons , and that's you won't go wrong .

And you just have to set those boundaries of what you're willing to do , what you're not willing to do , and that's up to you . And I'll be honest , if you feel bitter . It's your own fault . I remember promoting the captain . Here I'm with my best friends and I'm trying to kick their butts .

You know , I remember hoping they would try to that they would come after me and do the best job that we could and we would study together and learn together , and it was kind of like may the best man win and at the end of the day it hurts , like there's no . It's that emotion that you feel and you should and you will and know that right .

But know that it's okay to feel bad for a little while . Let the logic seep in and be like . You know , this is how it works . And where did I lack ? What am I going to do different next time ? Because we've all been there . You know I was number one on a captain's list . I got skipped for the number two guy who was my best friend . I called

him up . I said , hey , I just want to congratulate you , and he's like I didn't want to answer the phone . I mean , I was like my best friend , you know , like somebody I've been in the fire service with for 20 years , and he's like I didn't want to answer the phone . Like well , it's okay , man , I'm going to feel bad .

For a little while I had to question like why would I get skipped ? Looking back on it , and you'll never have this perspective up front . So you just kind of got to know . I think that's why you got to listen to these stories and just say it'll be for my good .

And I look back on that and it was the best thing I had to look inside myself , I learned a ton . I just wanted to be okay with it . Right , it's okay , it's okay , it's fine . And I realized it's not okay and it wasn't . And that's okay to feel those emotions .

They teach you , they tell you , you know they make you , they make you work and that's how you should . You should direct them . But at the same time , it's okay to feel them . It's just not okay to entertain them forever . And you can feel bad for a minute , and you probably should . If you didn't , you probably didn't care .

But I found that those you know setting those boundaries of like hey , I'm going to take this test and know that if I get beat I'm going to be back next time , you know , like up front , I know it's going to suck and I know , but I'm not going to get mad , I'm not going to be upset that we .

I'm just going to move on with it and do my best for the next go . You just have to realize that this whole thing is bigger than me .

But I think if you kind of go in there and say here's what I'm willing to give right , and it's so much , people give so much , give right and it's so much People give so much , but that's the limit , that's kind of the end of my time , this is what I can give to you , and then do it and go the extra mile and do all those things .

But you can't write a blank check . The fire department's a black hole of time and energy . It will suck anything you leave open . Right , it will take anything and everything that you have if you let it . And that's how you make it 20 years ? It's how you make it 30 years .

Is you just say here's what I'm willing to give and here's what I'm willing to do , and pace yourself doing it ? Yeah ?

You know I have my crew , I have the , you know I'm in charge of these things . And then the assistant manager position is about to open up . That that would probably be closer to a battalion chief or even or even like an assistant chief . I was the most senior employee that was there Like I was doing everything .

There were other operations supervisors that didn't have access to their employees' time cards but I had to do it because of how our center was . You know , the position opens and I apply for it and I have . All of my coworkers are like oh yeah , it's in the bag . Man , you got this . Like we believe in you , whatever .

I didn't even get an interview and they ended up promoting this guy and I was hurt and it wasn't my best friend , it was just some little puke that I had to train and then when he got promoted , I had to train him how to do what I was doing and that hurt and that caused a big , a big morale injury for myself , like I was very devoted into doing all

these little special things and doing all that kind of stuff and then I was like this is this , is it , this is my time , didn't even get an interview and I got the worst attitude about it . This guy's coming to me and I'm supposed to train him and I just like , screw you , buddy , that's what I had to do and it took me eight years to do it .

So good luck , he goes on and he does really well and it sucks because I had to take some of that humble pie and look and say you know what ? He is better than me . And here are all the reasons why he's better than me . He and I had a conversation . I had to apologize . Look , man , I was a total jerk to you .

I kind of made your life so much easier , but I was hurt and I want to do better . He and I , we had a pretty good partnership . He goes on , he leaves , he becomes a center manager . I get promoted to the assistant manager . As he was about to leave . He's like hey , I just want you to know something .

Because when the the I was up for that position again , he's like you have a hurdle , you have this , this huge mountain that you have to get over , and I was like why ? He's like the way you reacted when you didn't get the promotion , everybody's going to remember that . Everybody remembers how you act when you don't get a promotion .

When you get a promotion , you're supposed to be happy , right ? Nobody's going to be like , oh man , he was just the happiest person . It's like , oh , he didn't get a promotion and he had a bad attitude . It's like you're going to have to overcome that in order to get promoted .

So I had to work really hard and it wasn't like the hard work that I was used to , like putting in extra hours and doing these things . Like I did improve on my relationship with the center manager at the time . I had to improve on things that I wasn't , that I wasn't super good at , so that people could see that like I was ready for this promotion .

This promotion came around , I got promoted . I was the assistant manager for a long time . Similar situations the center manager leaves . I am the most tenured employee at that center coming up to be a center manager .

I actually got an interview this time didn't get the center manager position , the guy that they brought in and the nice thing was is what I learned from the first time I just applied it right from the get-go and he and I we hit it off and it was hard , but within a couple of weeks I realized , yeah , this guy is better than me and instead of being like

hey , screw you , buddy , like hopefully you figure this out , he made me better and that was the only reason . Those two gentlemen and me having to be humble and be uncomfortable made it so that I could become the center manager .

So now in the fire world , where I'm competing with my best friends , when Wallace gets promoted , like awesome , awesome , that is awesome .

The man worked his butt off , he and I spent a lot of time together training and he did a great job and he , you know you always want to get that promotion , but seeing someone else succeed here in the fire is awesome and I'm sure it'll come to a point where it'll be a similar situation where you know maybe it's Brent and I and we're number one and number

two . He's number one . Obviously , I would be number two for an engineer position , but I was just going to be so excited for him when he gets promoted .

You know , this is when they talk about the disappointment when you're listening to this podcast and you think , oh yeah , that didn't get the promotion , that's gotta be disappointing , it is .

But you know what it's different when you're in the middle of it , and this is like you have to look at yourself and say , dude , this is what it feels like , this is what it's like . I remember my daughter .

She loves those sayings , those little rah-rah-ree memes that are like get up when you can fall down , and then she had some hard times and I was like remember those memes that you post all over social media ? This is what it feels like . This is what it's like when you're in the middle of it .

And so I think you have to realize where you're at and promotion seems so far away and they come so fast . I mean , it is no time at all and it's easy to say that looking back .

You know , and that's why I guess we talk about this is one day you're going to say I remember that podcast , I remember those guys talking about it , and I guess this is what it feels like , Because you're going to say I remember that podcast , I remember those guys talking about it , and I guess this is what it feels like , Because you're going to have these

points . You're going to wonder why you're at the fire station . Still You're not human .

I didn't want it anyway , but I think you said a really important thing of and that's part of the boundary that you said is the boundaries in the way you think and allowing yourself to process those feelings , and that's one of the huge mental benefits of ice baths is you force your brain to endure something that's not comfortable , right ?

Rather than managing your feelings . And I'm feeling unhappy , I got to feel happy right now . What do I got to do ? It's no , you can sit in this ice bath for five or six minutes and you force yourself to process through that uncomfortableness and give yourself that time to do it .

Managing your feelings looks like stepping into the ice bath and getting right back out , right . But I think you know , with your story , with being number one on the captain spot and then , but telling your buddy it's like hey , of course I'm disappointed , you know , but that's okay , like I've given myself that room to be disappointed .

I'm going to think about it and I think we learned this in part of the peer support training . Is the BLT Mayo right . The moment you allow that feeling of disappointment to change your actions , that now I'm going to come to work grumpier , or now when I get there I'm going to screw these guys they can figure it out on their own .

I put in my time , or I'm not going to get the rescue ready for the next oncoming crew anymore , or whatever . If you start allowing those , well , that's the boundary , you've now crossed the boundary . If you start allowing those , well , that's the boundary , you've now crossed the boundary right .

And so allowing yourself to process it , but then setting that mental boundary of yeah , I'll allow myself to feel this way , but then sending a behavioral boundary of but I'm not going to allow it to change the way I interact with my crew or interact with my friend that I just tested against , you know , and I think that's a really admirable thing when you can

keep to those boundaries , and then how healthy it is to for a long career to have those .

One thing we can just kind of end on is communicating boundaries , cause I think going through it with yourself and I love the theme that we've kind of come to today of really doing it for yourself that you know , cause I think if you cross that boundary of I'm doing this for their apartment again , that's a time bomb waiting to go off right .

Eventually you're going to feel unappreciated by the department , or the department has no idea what you're actually doing . You're doing all this extra stuff no one knows , and then you blow up one day because no one's carrying around on their shoulders around the station praising your name . But so how do you and especially with you are over a whole shift now .

So what are some keys for both of you in communicating

your boundaries to others in a way that's not selfish , like if I came into your office and said , well , chief , I'm only going to do these things because these are my boundaries . There's that versus like , no , I just want to be helpful , but at the same time you know , here's what I got going on my four off . But you know I'm all in .

If you ask me to do something , I'm in . And so what ? What would you put as a in going through it yourself and now being in the on the other side of the desk or the hey , let's go for a drive chat . You're in the steering wheel now . What would be a better way to communicate boundaries to both the supervisor , but maybe also your crew .

Or asks about time off , and they want something outside of the boundaries of your protocols or SOPs or something like that .

What we normally do and I think the first thing is is just sticking as close to those rules that you already have as possible , and that it's funny , because you feel like those rules and we call them boundaries , and maybe expectations is another good word .

I think that sticking to those and being consistent , being consistent with them , communicates that that's the way it's going to be and you don't have to answer the same question or make the same decision over and over and over . You just stick to the rule , right , and so you try to be super consistent . It's funny .

That works with firefighters , works with your kids , you know . I mean , you're just consistent . I think that's a great way of communicating it . I think you know it's interesting . You got to know what they are first . You got to know what your boundaries are and what you want , and that's super important .

You know kind of what are your limitations , how much time do you want to spend . But I think , and I think some of it's just really not vocal , like , for example , think about somebody on your shift who you're not going to tell the dirty jokes around , right Do firemen do that no .

I mean , I , you know , it was interesting . We just had this discussion about time off and there are guys that try to get time off for every little thing that happens in their life . You know , and and then what ? How many of those can you take off and and not really affect your crew ?

Cause every time you take some time off , somebody else can't take it off , and any time you take it off you affect the other person . They have to go to another station , they have to move around . You've got to . I mean , it may be minor , but we all need time off and we all need to do it .

So what kids' events are you willing to miss because you can't take everyone off ? Like ? Which ones are you going to make sure that you go to and that you , you know , maybe you go to all the home games , but the away games . You just , you know it's not going to work out .

What are those time commitments , the time one I think we commit and cause ourselves so much pain in committing to do something in the future . So like , if somebody asks you to do something in three months , hey , come be on this podcast on this day in three months . You're like , yeah , sweet , no problem , let's do it Because you like the idea .

In three months you have nothing planned yet . You know , I mean , it's pretty easy to fit it in the old schedule . And one of the best pieces of advice I've heard and that I try to use is like , if it was to be tomorrow , would you still commit to it ? If this was tomorrow , would you commit to it ? And if it's yes , then do it .

The other thing I would say communicate to people is that if it's like a yeah or a yes , don't do it . If it's a hell yeah , then do it .

You know , if it's like that is something that I want to do , then and you know again , you're doing it for you , you're not going to be bitter because it takes you that time and that effort and the commitment that is needed , then do it , and do it well , you know .

I look at the guys putting together this peer support team and I just think the time and effort that's gone into it it comes from their own drive and that's exciting . You're willing to put in so much work . When you believe in something , you love something , it doesn't feel like work . And so I would say do the things you know .

Do those things that you know , offer those special skills that you have . I look at you two guys and you could almost to a head name the special talents that each person in our department has and what they contribute .

If you focus on those things , you're way more effective , you're way more happy and you get more done just because of the energy that you bring . So those are the recommendations I'd give . I think if you're having issues with this you know , understand how it works . Think about spending energy and not time , because especially Americans they love their time .

Like , if you work long , that means you worked hard , right . If you spend a lot of time on it , you worked hard when really you're probably wasting a ton of time . But there's a book called the Power of Full Engagement . It's probably one of my favorites . It's not a well-known book .

It's not one of these ones that you've probably heard a million times , but it talks about spending energy and not time , and these little things that you can do throughout the day that are unique to you and you have to . You've got to recharge .

And then your energy expenditure , you try to limit it , right , you try to make it less by making things , taking out friction of your life , taking out wasted time , going in when you work and work hard and then be done .

You know that kind of a concept and they give a ton of examples , some that'll make you probably a little uncomfortable , because you think , man , that's guys are super successful and then they just they're , they're kind of drop and they're going to get fired , you know , and they work with them to to see what their problem is and it's not a lack of ambition or

or they're not lazy , um , but it is like you have to recharge . You can't just keep giving and giving and giving and it's amazing . What will happen is you'll get more out of it .

I'll figure it out , and then eventually that's going to catch up and it's all going to collapse and you just can't keep taking on debt and taking on debt , right , until that's going to become a real problem . But I think the same thing can be applied to energy .

You keep taking on all these tasks , you keep committing to all these things , even if it's not tomorrow . But I love , I love that advice , because I think there's probably a lot of things I've taken on or or . But if I would have answered it that way , it's like well , I can't do it tomorrow , but I'll figure it out in three months , you know for sure .

I'm sure I can have something figured out .

And I remember a time when you had we used to call it work debt , right , Like you would take on all these jobs Again , that time thing where you obligate yourself up front , thinking I'll take care of that later , right , That'll figure itself out , whatever you think . And it kind of came due , right .

And there's a gentleman who was a businessman that came in and talked to you and you were like , dude , I'm literally sleeping at my studio to edit videos and to make a go of this . And you're telling me , come in at eight and leave at six or something . I mean he limited your time . He limited like your caffeine , didn't he Like caffeine ?

and a few things Would you tell us about that , Because I felt like your business jumped forward . You recovered from all this work , debt and yet you backed up and kind of had to you set some boundaries right . He helped you set some boundaries . How did that work ?

That's pretty much what happened to me now , cause , yeah , at that time I was taking on as many projects as I could , because if there's one thing you want to do with your hobby is make some money at it , and then the next thing you do is you have a bunch of bills to pay , and so now you don't have a choice , you have to make money .

I mean , a problem I had had early on in the business that that individual helped me fix was , at that time I was requiring full payment upfront for projects because I needed the money yesterday .

And then what that turned into was I was 53 projects deep that were all paid upfront , that I was trying to get those done , but I was out of money and so I had to get those done , otherwise they're going to want their money back , and I also had to take on new projects to get new money , and that was a bad , bad place to be .

So he but yeah , it was interesting with just starting to set a few boundaries and he also was the first one that was like no , you need to hire an employee . And I was like with what money you ?

Know , and but it was amazing Started making a few of those changes , allowing to give myself some boundaries of time , meaning like no , I'm not going to just assume I'm going to pull an all-nighter and get this done . I can't do that anymore . Then he helped me bring on an employee that I had to fund for the first little bit with a loan .

I won't tell you where that loan came from , but it rhymes with Mayday .

Like it's like if you say , well , you didn't have time , you overcommitted your time , so you got to learn from that , right ? So how did you do it ? Well , you bought somebody else's time , right ? You used an employee or somebody else to help you out . And it's the same for us .

Like you know , if you're , if you're putting all this time in every second that you can and you're not wasting it , but you still need more time , then you got to figure something else out . Right , Somebody else has got to come help you . If you're the only one that can do something , that's not right either . What if you get hit by a bus ?

We always joke about that in the IT world . What if so-and-so gets hit by a bus ? Who knows his passwords ? Somebody else has got to be able to do your job and , honestly , that's the sign of a good leader , I think , is if you could leave and everything keeps going because everybody knows how to take care of it , then that's success .

But I think that you had a . It was really interesting to watch you at that time because it was like this guy was requesting all these things out of you and it was like , dude , it's not working , with me spending 20 out of 24 hours awake and then editing videos , how is it going to work when I go , come in at nine and go home at six and a few ?

When you get , you know , 20 minutes or less or whatever , deep into a structure , fire , your low alert or low air alarm goes off . Commuting , communicating to everybody . I've hit my boundary . I got to get out right and then it's everybody's job at that point to help you get out , because if you keep going , that's trouble and that's you know .

And so I think it's interesting that when it comes to business or family or mental health it's like as firefighters we don't think that those same principles apply in those areas . I can go forever , or it will get better down the road or whatever . I'm not going to do anything about it , it'll just resolve on its own .

But in firefighting mode it's like no , we have a crew that the lightning test with ropes , right , if somebody gets hit by lightning , can we still ? Does rope

rig still work to get this patient off the mountain or whatever ? Like , we have all of these boundaries set up .

And , man , I think , if we can apply that same mindset to other aspects of our life , because I think , and you know , going back to that , and , and you know , I think , when we assume that we're the exception to the rule , that , no , I can pull all-nighters all the time or I can do all these extra tasks without getting burned out , you're operating on a

fraction of a fraction of a percent of possibilities that that's going to work . And you know , and in a structure fire , you would never take that kind of risk . You know , with a low air alarm and just assume that , oh , I'm sure I'll find a door on the other side , or I'm like you would .

No one would ever do that and you would get in so much trouble if you just freelanced and decided to go all cavalier like that right but , so I think there's lots of principles that firefighters already know . It's a matter of transitioning that over into other aspects of our life .

I think we're just about to the end here , but any last thoughts , Mr Scriver .

Okay , my kid , my child , is five years old . If I devote all this time to go to paramedic school or something like that , and I miss out on basically his whole , from five to six years old , at the end of the day , how does that , how does that make me feel ? Can I , during the time that I'm not at school , make up for the time that I'm gone ?

And how do I do that ? By being super engaged with them . You know , trying to not be a zombie when I'm at home , that kind of stuff . And if it's , I'm going to be a paramedic . Hell yeah , I'm in , I'll do it . And I got an excellent partner that's going to help , you know , fill in the gaps when I'm not there and when I volunteer for something .

Or I'm like , hey , there's an overtime shift , a driver overtime shift , that sounds pretty sweet , and if my wife's not like , yeah , totally take it . It was like you know , you can't make up somebody's birthday party , you can't make up shoveling the sidewalks with your kids , you can't just like do over those .

That's an experience that you lose , and is that an experience that I'm I'm okay losing .

You can't expect others to help you respect those boundaries , right , and I think that's a super important point , and we can quote our , uh , common friend neil gibbons as our closing quote .

But , man , so many of our problems would be solved if we just talked to each other yeah , they're forgetting him saying that , and he says it a lot um , but it's so true , just and you know there's no perfect combination of words to use to articulate your boundaries just talk about it and you'll figure it out .

And , um , I think , um , not only is there power in what you'll be able to do in the short term with that , but I think , if you're lucky , you'll end up like Chief Cox here with a good long , prosperous career and get to do some pretty cool things .

So thank you again for joining us today and for both of you being here and giving up your time and not setting the boundary short of this podcast , but allowing this within your boundaries . Appreciate that a lot and I will see you guys on the next one .