Fire and Ice ... Baths: Diving Into the Benefits of Cold Water Therapy

Jump right in , ah , okay , oh it's cold , we'll cut that part out . So why don't you kick us off ? Because I think you have been researching and doing this the longest with the Wim Hof Method stuff and cold showers , and so tell us a little bit about your journey with cold immersion and how you got into it and then what's kept you going with it .

That kind of introduced me to the Wim Hof Method and the more I started finding out about Wim Hof his life story was just extraordinary and just the things he was able to do physically is incredible and I started looking into that and reading his book is pretty interesting . It's just it's called the Wim Hof Method , but it's .

It's a good read If you're interested in this . That's where I started and getting into that . He talks about his little bit of his life story and then he just talks about how he found out or how he noticed that there was benefits from getting into cold water or cold water immersion therapy .

And so I remember talking about it with Bingo one day and we were sitting around and I was like this seems pretty hokey , bingo , and he's , you got to try it .

And he he eventually talked me into it and it was just turning the shower all the way cold at the end of the shower and you talk to people and say I've been taking cold showers and they're like you take a cold shower and and yeah , when I was on my mission in Haiti we didn't have heated water and so every shower was a cold shower and you get used to

it . But I mean that first , the first couple of drops of the little eight ounce cup scooping it out of my five gallon bucket shower bucket , I'd dump that on your head and every time it was just a good cold shock . And that was probably the first time that I noticed the shock and how , how strange that was .

And looking back and thinking about that , I've had the discussion with a couple of people but my ability to thermoregulate . In Haiti I didn't feel like I was always burning , boiling hot , but I knew it was super hot outside .

It was super dry when I carried a handkerchief in my pocket all the time and that was just to wipe my face , and some poor white guy in the middle of Haiti where I didn't see another white person for a month at some points , but it was just to clarify for our audience this is a Christian mission , not prison . Yeah .

And then , as a firefighter , as I started talking to Corey about that and started to make the connection between some of those things that for my past and what he was talking about , I was like this there is some real science there and I started doing two or three minutes .

At the end of my showers I would just turn it all the way , cold or as cold as I could stand it . And Wim Hof he talks about it's not about going from zero to 60 .

You start out with 15 seconds in the cold , as cold as is on , as as you can stand it , to where it's still uncomfortable , to where you still get that cold shock , and working your way up to 30 seconds and then pretty soon you're doing a minute and pretty soon it doesn't bother you anymore and it still , to this day , like when I get in , if I start with

a warm shower and I , once I turn it cold , I still get that initial shock Ooh , you get that kind of takes your breath away , which that's the point . But doing that there's there's a ton of benefits which we can we'll . I'm sure we'll have time to touch on that later , but that's where I started and I've I've been doing cold showers pretty much .

I don't think I've missed a shower where I haven't turned to cold in the last around three years , just over three years , and that's there's . I've seen a ton of huge benefits from that , now that I understand a lot of the science behind it .

But just by doing it every time you're starting to build that habit and then it becomes that much easier every time If you make that habit of at least doing turning to cold every single time . Have you noticed a difference since the more recent ice baths over cold showers , or is it a pretty similar experience ?

We were on a traffic accident down in front of Macy's and I remember one of the UHP guys was talking to us and we had our bunker pants on , but he he comes over and he's what are you guys doing ? It's starting to rain out here and you guys are in T-shirts and me and Corey looked at each other and was like are you cold ? No , are you cold , no .

And he had his big heavy winter coat on and he was just like you guys are insane .

It's freezing out here and I thought it's really pleasant and the rain was a little bit chilly , but I felt fine and that , that , now that reading some of that new or getting into some of the new data that we've , I've recently discovered things to Tyler that makes a lot of sense and seeing my body's ability to thermoregulate back then versus now the ice baths

it's I don't know . The ice baths are different because it makes you so uncomfortable . Some joints hurt or some some parts of your body hurt when you're in there , but then getting out you feel just that huge dopamine rush and you're you feel so good .

For so long afterwards I don't feel like I get super hot or super cold anymore when I go outside , in whatever temperatures it is , and I still do a fair amount of work just out in the yard last year going to wildland . There's there's there's all kinds of times doing tree work outside . It's super hot , but I don't I feel like I'm really getting overheated .

Ever and same with the cold . I don't ever feel like I'm getting too cold . My fingers , my hands might get super cold if I don't have a decent set of gloves on or something , but like I don't feel like I get . I don't ever feel like I'm really cold or really hot anymore .

But as a crew we started watching this documentary I think it was called Limitless with with Chris Hemsworth and part of that . He swims in the Alaskan Sea or something crazy like that . The start of the episode , he they're sitting on some port in Alaska , like Anchorage or something like that , and his coach was like , all right , let's get in the water .

And he jumps in and he's oh my gosh , it's cold . And seeing how much he struggled with it , us as a crew are like , okay , that's crazy , we're not going to do that . But by the end of the episode we're like we're doing it . And the next morning the plan was is to clear out a recycling bin , fill it full of snow and water and then jump in there .

So we were ready to roll and , as luck would have it have it , I ended up going on a transfer to primary children's shock , and I think I can't remember who else was there . But yeah , yeah . So we were there , we're getting ready to do it , and then got to go on a transfer .

So we go on our transfer and I'm driving and I'm listening to stuff , but the whole time I'm thinking about I really do not want to do this anymore Like this is the worst idea ever .

So we drop off our patient and we're driving back and I just finally told myself , like you're going to do it , you're going to get in there and , regardless of what happens , you're going to at least try something , something new , do something difficult , do something challenging .

We pull in and Cap Chalk he has the recycling bin just chucked full of snow and ice . I think the first couple of times we did this I can't remember it was January , february or something crazy like that and my partner he's okay like when are we going to do this ? When is it going to happen ? I was like I'm doing it right now and I just walked over .

I took my clothes off , I had to climb up a ladder to get into the ice bath and then I went in there and it was awesome In the moment . It was like a first . I was almost like a cat trying to stay out of the bathtub .

I got my arms on the side of this recycling bin and I'm trying to keep every ounce of every inch of my body out of it and I was like no , I told myself I was going to do this .

And then I dunked and Captain Chalk was there and I remember going in and I'm thinking I got to get out of here and I got to do it fast and he just as silly as it sounds he's looked at me and said hey , it's Graver , you're safe , buddy , like you're okay . And then this switch just flicked in my brain and I was like I am safe .

This is uncomfortable , this the my fingers , my toes . They hurt , but I'm safe and I can , and I can do this .

Took a couple deep breaths I can't remember how long I was in there the first time and I thought , man , my whole body's in here and I'm doing this and I will look back at like the picture of my first ice bath and it was like barely up to my shoulders . That's crap , that sucks . Next time I'm going all the way in .

Well , after my first one , then I really started to to absorb some information about it , really tried to seek it out . I listened to a few podcasts and in these podcasts you you learn about all of this cool stuff that your body does when you submerge it in the freezing cold water , and I needed to get more of it .

It was weird because it was there , was there was a mental part where I was like I did something hard and I want to do that again , but this time I want to go for longer . I don't know if I could get any colder because of that recycling bin . Well , it's chucked full of snow . But then my body was like I like that .

I know I usually have issues IT band issues in my knee and I got out and you're cold and whatnot , but throughout the day I noticed , man , that sucker's gone , like I haven't felt that all day . We went and we did the stairs and I didn't feel it .

I didn't feel it for a couple weeks and I came back and I was like I guess it's time for another ice bath . Then I was hooked and we went from recycling bin to now we have like a like a tote and I've been in the kneel special which is like the , the creme d'olà , creme of ice baths . That thing is awesome , but yeah , now I can't go without it .

It was like last week I was in a bad mood . I had my kids and you know I was trying to be a good dad . We went to the swimming pool . I was tired from being on shift .

I wanted to work out , but I was super sore and I just knew that I wasn't going to be able to get a good workout and I was like I wonder what the 120 boys are doing right now . It's like I should text them .

I should go get in an ice bath and then , not even 20 minutes later , I get a picture of their Brent his first ice bath in there and I was like I gotta make this happen . That's gonna say that was my last one , but we did another one on shift and now I can't get enough of it .

But man after doing the ice bath out , being that sore and then just having that relief for a few hours after that ice bath , it felt so good . That kind of got me more hooked beyond my initial reasons to get in .

But it's funny that the same reasons that kept me out were similar to yours and that all my PTSD from being freezing cold on scalp camps I was like no , I'm not getting in that bath .

You want to just have a way to to get feeling better or try to prevent some of that soreness of the next day .

I've done that quite a few times and you know what the when we go to stairs we put our our 35 pound air packs on , we're running around the football stadium or the basketball spectrum and it's it's a lot of stairs and a lot of times like mentally I I'm conflicted , I don't want to go .

But I want to go because I want that feeling of afterwards , or feeling that I get after the , the workout , that feeling of accomplishment , that that dopamine release and then knowing that you did something super hard and how many benefits you're going to be gaining from that workout .

Going back to that , the benefits from that you there's no , it doesn't seem like there's nearly as much inflammation for an extended period of time on .

And recently , last Saturday , I went and did the spartan beast at snow basin , which was brutal and it took me six hours nine minutes . I did it last year it was it's a 21k , it ended up being 15.39 miles this year and I was feeling pretty good about it . Went home , got some ice , threw it in the ice bath and I sat in there and I just felt awesome .

I knew I was going to be super sore getting out of the car just from driving home from Ogden Canyon like I . It hurt to stand up I .

So I drove to my brother in Lawson , smithfield with my truck , which is a manual , so I get in my truck to drive home and I'm like struggling to push the clutch in and I get it in gear and then I just dry shifted the whole way home because I couldn't push the clutch in again .

So but getting home , like I got in the ice bath afterwards I was like I feel great and I remember exactly how I felt last year after it and it was like an extended two or three days that I felt terrible , just my legs and everything was just shot . But this year I had a little bit of soreness after the fact .

But I did the ice bath pretty much consecutively every day since that , since last Saturday , and yesterday was really the first day I hadn't done it , but I feel awesome . No inflammation , no , no super soreness .

Right , I'm gonna jump in this ice , I know it's gonna hurt , but I'm gonna get some , some benefits out there . Most animals , most most things out there , they don't , they can't do that . We and the the volume of cells that we have in our brain , even compared to a whale , is just crazy , crazy different . So you get in there and you feel that shock .

Right , your body's gonna go into survival mode , which sounds like a horrible thing . But that's what our bodies are supposed to be doing . Our bodies are supposed to be protecting us and we're supposed to have all this different kind of stimulus mental and physical , and all that stuff .

So initially , you're gonna get a bunch of epinephrine , you're gonna get a bunch of norepinephrine and you're you're gonna have , like , either your peripheral arteries and capillaries and stuff like that . Those are all gonna constrict .

But this cool thing that happens is you , as you sit in there , your body actually makes this thermal air around your body , where it things . It's not that it's gonna feel warm , but it doesn't necessarily get any colder , which is a good survival technique . We're gonna talk about getting rid of that .

When you're in an ice bath , to really just get the most out of the experience , so agitating the water , moving around , getting more of that cold , but , yeah , doing the chicken wing , yeah , so as you do that , the , there's all sorts of crazy stuff cold shock proteins , proteins that your body doesn't release , it doesn't , it doesn't use until you are in a quote

, unquote life or death situation to help your body survive . So those are going to be released and then a lot of people are unfamiliar . But you have this you have fat that's around like your collarbones and it's . It's a specialized fat , it's . You have brown fat and you have white fat . White fat would be the general adipose tissue .

The your body fat love handles that kind of stuff . The , the fat that people hate . That really is just energy storage . Brown fat is actually almost like an organ and it it helps with metabolism . So when your body gets in that cold water , it's going to boost your metabolism .

Most of the calories you burn throughout the day are just to maintain your body temperature . So when you drop that body temperature , you're gonna have to start burning more calories in order to keep that up . There's the . When you get out of the ice bath and you start to shiver , your body then starts to dilate all those blood vessels . It starts to warm up .

It actually the normal . The normal rhythm throughout the day is you start cold from when you are sleeping . You warm up a couple degrees as you're awake and then as you fall asleep , your body starts to cool down again . What the ice bath does is it cools your body super fast , but when you get out , your body then has to warm up .

So it'll help with the whole waking process . One of the don'ts is don't do it right before bed . It's like caffeine . Some people can do it , some people shouldn't do it , but it warms up your body , which wakes you up . And then we could .

Totally , like just this last shift , like sometimes , especially if it's a little slower , whatever , and even if you're trying to stay busy , it just seems like there's an afternoon like lull , where it's super hard to stay motivated , to keep training or to keep studying or to keep working on whatever you're doing .

But , man , every time I've gotten to that point then I just tell myself , okay , I'm gonna do a nice bath , and then it is . It's like starting fresh in the morning , ready to go , like I just got out of bed and you just feel a renewed sense of I don't know motivation and energy to like .

And I feel and I've seen it even on the off days like it's it's been , because I feel like I try to stay pretty busy on my four off , but if I'm starting to feel that way during the day too , I'll text the guys 120 . Hey , do you mind if I come up and take a nice bath real quick ?

Because , man , when I do it and then I come back to the office or whatever , I am so much more productive because my body's just more I don't know , I guess waking up and ready to go yeah , you think we consume caffeine to block the , the tired hormone , which is no , that's one of them .

When caffeine is gone , you have more adenosine in there and so you feel more tired . So you're gonna drink more caffeine , right , and ice bath is your physiological drinking caffeine without the caffeine and in your body's gonna do a 10 times better job than any kind of chemical that you can put into it .

So , yeah , you get that awakeness , that wakefulness , and then neil was talking about that . So you did something hard and as a reward , you're gonna feel good because you get this , this other neurotransmitter , you get dopamine that's released into your body and you feel accomplished and you feel motivated .

And then we we mentioned it for a second , but for chronic pain . Actually , jason ward , he was a . He came up and he worked a shift at 71 with us and he did not want to get in there and he was complaining about having some sciatic pain and the way that I peer pressured him into it was like , dude , you getting that ice back , you're not .

You're not gonna feel your sciatic like it's . It's , it's gonna take your breath away , but guarantee after that you're not gonna , you're not gonna even notice it's there , jumps in the ice bath . He stays in there for I don't know five , six minutes like a champ .

He gets out , he warms up and he's going throughout the day and the next , the next morning , he's . I'm felt my sciatic pain since we got in there and we got him hooked . And then he the next thing I know he's at 72 and they've got an ice bath going down there and everybody's jumping in the ice bath at 72 .

The reason why is because jason , he was hurting . It's like my it band .

But either of you familiar with any of the why it's helpful in those areas ?

In the scandinavian countries they'll take their babies and put them in the , their strollers , or she calls them prams , but they put them outside to take a nap and they have that cold exposure in the winter time on their face and a lot of our receptors are in our face . That's .

That's partially why , like when we talk about doing a vagal response or trying to help somebody in svt , you can . One of the options is to put ice on their face or put their face in a bowl of ice water , which isn't or it doesn't seem like it's a great idea . We're going to drown this person in ice water to help so their heart down .

But the , the science behind that is that's going to initiate that initial shock , activate that catacolamine response with the like what tiler talked about , the norepinephrine , epinephrine of the dopamine , but that helps to shock the body and the more shocks that you get with that the that lady she talks about .

That's going to be what helps build the immunity of people when they do with their babies and that helps them build a better immunity that sustains throughout their life . And I think partially it's just because it's it's colder .

They're in Scandinavia , they're able to do that and they continue to do that where they grew up being exposed to that extreme cold and that's one like she talks about . I think she now she does like to . They have a whole bunch of people out in the bay that just go hop in the bay in the winter time and go for a swim . They do it every day .

And doing that type of a thing just being able to shock your body it builds up that immunity level and it's it's just our natural body's response and I I don't fully understand the science behind it , but it works and I'm being a paramedic , I should know that type of thing , but I really don't .

But this group of I want to say they were australians two groups one that was just doing resistance training , one that would do a cold bath or cold exposure and then do resistance training . The cold bath and the resistance training had a crazy , significant increase in testosterone . And then we we need high testosterone levels . Crazy thing , women .

They also need testosterone . Doing that cold exposure , doing that resistance training , has helped maximize that group of individuals testosterone levels . So sleep , testosterone , pain control , it's . It's pretty awesome what you can do with a little bit of cold water .

more . You're not . It's not circumstantial to where you have to wait to be in a circumstance for your body to go under that mode , but to be in practice to where you're in control of when you put yourself into that mode .

And that seems like that's where Wim Hof is right , like he can control his core body temperature whenever he wants , and that's pretty crazy . So yeah , just the benefits so far outweigh the discomfort that you just have to start believing it .

And for my experience sounds like Ward's experience and some of your guys experience you just have to experience the benefit one time and then that pain free , that rejuvenation , and then you're hooked .

And I think for anybody out there that's been skeptical man just giving it one try , which really you can get a lot of benefit out of , just for the one time , but you'll , you'll be hooked .

So let's go over , let's start into some of the dos and don'ts , because there definitely is a wrong way to do it , that can not be helpful and be harmful to your workout routine , and I know other things .

And then also some good things to consider when starting and I think we can work from like a basic level to an advanced level , because I think you sent me that Huberman thing the other day that said five minutes at 68 degrees is still helpful , so you don't have to go to 32.6 for 15 minutes to like right out of the gate .

There is a way you can work into maybe more colder , more time or whatever , but you can get immediate benefits from what he called an annoyingly cold exposure .

It all depends on how acclimated you are to the cold . So if Neil would get in there for a 60 degree temperatures , he's probably feel like he's in a hot tub .

We didn't all spend time in a Haitian prison , yeah but there are other people out there that 60 degrees is cold and if they get in there five , six minutes they're going to get a even just one exposure a week . They're going to get a mood boost from that dopamine . So the colder , the less time that you need to spend in there .

But again , it just goes off of that general rule of thumb . You want to try to have at least 11 minutes total exposure throughout the week , not in one single sitting .

The first time the dang shock family came up and did it At this point we've been doing it for a couple of weeks and we're like oh yeah , we're going to look like rock stars . I get in there , I'm in there for seven minutes . I'm like so cool and shock JC , shock , jesse , shock .

They jump in there and they're in there for 15 minutes and we're like throw some snow in there , making it uncomfortable for them . They still just rock just just in there , dunking their heads . That would be a good example . Maybe they spend a little bit more time . You definitely need to be safe .

Cold baths awesome Cold , controlling the environment and controlling the situations around it . Right , you're in a tub versus a lake or a river . You go out into a really cold river and you're out there for too long . You could drown . Be careful with that Jumping in a tub . Just remember Andy telling you that you're safe . It doesn't .

Six minutes is about the most benefit that you're going to get for as far as your body goes , but the mental benefit of being in there for a little bit longer up to 15 minutes somewhere around there , those are some good places to start . So if it were me and I were to do it all over again , I would skip the recycling bin .

Cause that was where I would get set up like you guys have at 120 , throw some ice and some water and I would practice just going in , staying in there for a couple of minutes , then coming out and then trying to get that 11 minutes throughout the week .

As far as exercise and training and things like that , you got to decide what are you training for If you're training for hypertrophy or strength . So if you're trying to build muscle or build strength , you shouldn't do a cold bath after you work out . The longer you wait between when you work out to when you have that cold exposure , the better .

So it's a minimum of four hours , preferably six to eight hours .

My perfect day Wake up , get in a cold bath , go to the gym , do a good warm up , spend 15 minutes getting all the blood back into my fingers and my toes , do an , a lift and then being done , and then probably if I was feeling really crazy probably around six , six o'clock at night and jumping in for another short exposure .

If you are training for a Spartan , if you are training for a half marathon , if you're doing endurance type training , you can do a cold bath right after right . If you're training for a marathon and you have a week where you have tons and tons of miles that week . Jump into a cold bath right after you're done training .

Part of that with the endurance is recovering , and recovering quickly . That cold bath , that cold exposure , is going to help you do that process . You can wear gloves . You can wear booties . Some people they don't like the way it makes their hands feel . Keep your hands out of the water . Put gloves on there's .

If you have neuropathy in your fingers and your toes it can be very painful . So either keep them out of the water or get these little booties , put those on there and then jump in .

There are times that I crave to have my face in cold water now , and when I jump in that ice bath and at the moment I'm like there's no way I'm going to put my head underwater . But when I do put my head underwater , hold my breath for a little bit , come back up . It's . It's like a second shock to the body . It's like a whole , a whole .

Nother cold exposure as far as those mental benefits go . But if you're starting out and you're you don't want to do that , don't do it . Leave your head above water , get some , get some experience underneath your belt and then , and then at least try it a couple times .

As long as you get in and get that initial response there's , there is nothing wrong with getting your hands , fingers , putting them up on the sides or or getting them out of that water , cause we've talked to a lot of people that have done it , that they do .

They have just like deep bone pain , that neuropathy or , and they that that kind of steers a lot of people away from wanting to do it again , and it's you don't have to get them in there and keep them in there , and it's just like the face I I like to do the same thing get that secondary shock , and I've I've tried to see how long I can hold my breath

under the water and you come back up , and usually when I pop back up , I want to get out now , and so it's been another difficult thing for me to tell myself , no , let's stay in for another minute , and then at the end of that minute I'm going to dunk my head again .

That was awesome , cause by that time , with your head being the only thing above water , it's warming back up pretty quick . But that's that's something that I'd always suggest is getting that , that head immersion Cause just that benefits from that secondary shock , like you talked about , tyler , and then those extra thermal receptors being able to do that .

And even if you're doing cold showers , that starting out with cold shower get it uncomfortably cold to where you can stand it , and I usually do 15 seconds on my chest , 15 seconds on my arm , 15 seconds on my back and then my other arm , and then I slowly put my head under and to this day I still get that initial shock just taking your breath away .

But then seeing how long I can keep my face in that cold water is it almost becomes like a challenge or it becomes like a another thing , another hurdle to to get past and another mental hurdle . But there there's huge benefits from that .

So a lot of people out there that don't want to get into the cold bath just start out with the shower , just try turning as cold as you can get it , as cold as you can stand it and understand like your body is going to the temperature , regulate itself and then get to where you're able to stand , that and it doesn't feel as cold after about 15 , 30 seconds

, and especially once you start , like on your chest , if you do the full twirl .

Once you come back to your chest , that water does not feel that cold anymore and it's just like that experiment back in the day when you hold a cup of ice water and a cup of hot water and you want each hand and then you hold the same cup of the same temperature in the middle and they both feel different . Both hands feel different .

Your body will acclimate to whatever temperature you've got it on , but being able to to do that and start out just with the shower and work up to the the cold plunge is , is its huge benefits .

and it's . It's that initial shock that you're looking for . If you're getting to the point where you don't get that shock , you're you know you should be looking for getting that , just pushing it a little bit further .

Because even like as as used to it as I am , like when I get in the cold bath , the ice bath , it is cold and I get that shock , and I still do get that shock from when I jump into the or when I get in the shower and turn it cold , and that's for me it hasn't ever gone away , and that's .

I've been doing it for quite a while , not nearly as long as Wim Hof , but I'd be curious to have a conversation with him and say how much of a shock is it still for you ? Which , knowing the science and understanding that now , that initial shock on your skin , that is what gives you that thermal regulation response .

Oh man , that's cold and I'm trying to act all cool , yeah , it's fine , it's nothing , keep throwing some ice in there . My oldest . She decides , okay , now I'm getting in , this is when I get in .

So she gets in there and she jumps in and she stops about the water levels , about chest high , and she's man , nope , she's making silly excuses like I don't wanna get water on my shoulders and stuff like that . And I'm just being super encouraging Parley , you can do this , just go all the way and up to your neck , just make it happen a little bit .

She goes in there , she goes up to her neck , she instantly comes back up . But then I watch and she slowly sinks back in there and where she was , like I don't wanna get my shoulders in the water , she's almost up to her neck and she was there for about three minutes . Then my mental child her best was to get in there .

She went 100% all but drowned herself in the thing as she stood back up and she got out . And then it was my turn and I'm like I got this and I stood there for half a second . I don't wanna do this , but I knew in my executive brain I'm in control , I'm the boss . This little primitive brain inside my head that's no , you can't do this .

Why would you ? You're gonna die . Nope , sorry , buddy , I'm gonna think my way through this . And I jumped in and I was able to keep the respect of my children as a man and a father , because I didn't , I didn't went out .

But it's always there , that shock that once I get up to that that lip , whether it be the plunge tub , whether it be the recycling bin , I don't wanna do it . But I can tell myself that I'm in control .

That this survival brain , sure , it's important , but I can override it with just clear , direct thought , controlling my breathing , get into that water and reap those benefits and still have that . Oh my gosh , this is so cold . What am I doing ? Telling myself I'm safe , take a couple breaths . Yeah , it's usually about the five or six minute mark .

I start shaking uncontrollably and then my wife makes fun of me . But like I'm just agitating the water , I don't have to do the chicken wing thing . It's there every time .

And is there a temperature that's too cold that you definitely should not do ? And then back to the time limit . Is there a minimum ? I think I've heard three minutes before is like a minimum amount of time you should spend in there to just start getting benefits .

So if you do it less than that , you're really not accomplishing or hitting that threshold of I don't know . Does that make any sense ?

But doing that , the three to five minute is that mark where you're gonna be getting the maximum benefits . But in in her book she talks the winter swimming . Dr Soberg talks about just that initial shock is what is the most important part of it .

And getting that initial shock , even if you just get in and hop right back out like your middle child doing going pedal to the metal , jump in and jump right back out she's still gonna be getting a lot of benefits from that . But to maximize the benefits , that three to five minute window is really where you wanna be time wise . But that's .

You've seen guys that hop in after . Have you lived your first time ?

That first minute and a half or two minutes they are still in that sympathetic nervous system response fight or flight . You can see it in their eyes , you see it in their face . They're just like I have got to get out of here now . Once you hit that , for me it's about a minute and a half . After that minute and a half , for me it's just .

This is pleasant , pretty comfortable in here . Start doing the chicken wing or start shivering and start moving that water around to keep that cold water on . You . Keep that shock happening . That's super important . You look at the collegiate athletes and they've been doing this way before any of us ever thought that we had discovered this new fancy thing .

My dang wife , we don't wanna talk about her . But after a game or sometimes in the half times , they will jump into that ice bath and that is huge for their recovery . But a lot of those have a swirling . They have just a whirlpool agitator that keeps that water moving so that it doesn't sit and you don't build that warm water barrier around your body .

But keeping that agitation , keeping that water moving , is super important .

So he decided he was gonna shave his body and he jumped in and he said it was the worst thing ever , because that thermal barrier that your body creates right , your hair stand up on hair yeah , get rid of it , try it out . That your hair stands up and it creates that thermal layer . And he said it was night and day difference Time . Yeah .

So I mean , if you want most of the benefits , three minutes , right . If you wanna try and get the most physiologically out of that , awesome . But I equate it to it's just like working out . If you get on a treadmill and the most you can do is 15 minutes , that's 15 minutes more than you did versus sitting on the couch .

If you get in there and you dunk your whole body in and you get out , you never would have done that , right , you at least were in there for five , 10 seconds longer than if you would have just talked yourself out of it . Can it be too cold ?

Yeah , so the things you start to worry about at , like those freezing temperatures , and for the most part the exposure is again . It's a controlled , relatively safe environment , but if you're going longer periods of times we'll look out for hypothermia .

I don't know if somebody could get frostbite from it , but before we retired the recycling bin we decided how cold can we get this thing ? And there was probably a foot and a half of snow and ice on the top layer of the sink . So I jumped in there and I'd done it a couple of times .

I'm straight up to my neck and I can feel it on my back , and not so much the cold water , but I could feel it's just like when it snows outside and it's been out there for a while . You try to run through it and it's crusty and I can scrape your foot up and stuff like that . I can feel that on my back a little bit .

So as we're going , I'm trying to agitate , I'm trying to move , I get out and it looked like I had scratches all over my back . It was superficial , nothing too crazy , nothing too horrible right there , but something to think about . You have ice sitting directly on your skin .

Your chances for getting frostbite at that point is probably a little bit more right If you're gonna go in there for 15 minutes . Maybe you might have some stuff . You might have some issues with that right there , but is there any issues with 15 minutes 35 degrees ? Yep , there is Yep but yeah , those would be things that kids .

Kids can do ice baths , but they lose body heat faster , they just they don't need to be in as long . Look for signs for hypothermia . That kind of stuff , man , it usually takes a bit . There's . Actually , I was trying to find a chart that says this is how long you should be in ice bath if it's this temperature .

There weren't very many of those charts , but I'll tell you what . There were a lot of charts there . This is the temperature , this is when you start losing dexterity , this is when you die , and so if you're worried , you can just Google search ice bath graphs and there's tons like military has has researched this for diving and all sorts of stuff there is .

There is too much , but if you're doing that 11 minutes a week , maybe even more right , but you're keeping those exposures to like a five , three to five minutes , I think you're fairly safe .

found helpful .

You can feel like , for me , I can feel all that oxygen , all that blood flowing out throughout my whole body and most people you don't look for that feeling , but if you do take a couple of super deep breaths you can feel it .

You've got that rush of all that blood flow and so getting in there , there's a couple things with that blood flow or with that Wim Hof breathing , you get in this super deep breath through in through your nose and then a long , extended breath out through your mouth .

That is where , like it's doing a couple things , you're helping out your executive or primitive brain , because you're thinking about controlling your breathing , which we all know . The box breathing is a super good way to get out of that primitive brain and for a quick explanation , box breathing is just four seconds inhale , four second pause .

Four second out , exhale , four second pause , and that it creates a box which is breathing . But doing that a couple of times helps you get out of that primitive brain and for being in the bath , like especially with my kids .

All three of my kids have been in the ice bath and every time I try to coach them say , hey , you need a big , deep breath in through your nose and then slowly exhale through your mouth . And for them , once they can start thinking about that and engaging that executive brain , you can see the .

You can see the response on their faces when they're physiologically like , they start to calm down , they start to control their breathing , they start to have gain control of their body and be able to say , yes , I can do this . This is a hard thing but I am safe , I am capable of doing this . So controlling that breathing , I think , is super important .

And there's there's the other end of the spectrum , like you can't hyperventilate in there . And there's been times , like when we got it down to 32.4 degree or whatever it was the other day , like I got in there and there was probably six and eight inches of ice on the top layer of there and when I got in there I started breathing .

I thought I was controlling my breathing but pretty soon my ear lobes and like the back of my face was starting to feel numb , then my pretty soon I'm doing the whoo with my lips , doing like closing them off and like hey , I'm breathing a little too fast , trying to control my breathing and so being able to notice those things is super important to say I have

to slow it down or get get control of my breathing . But I do think that the pre-oxygenation or the deep breathing beforehand I think any good deep breathing is always beneficial and Wim Hof's always gonna suggest controlling that breathing . A forceful push out or forceful exhale after good deep inhale is always a good idea , but that's from what I've seen .

It really does help , it's . It's a good way to get control of yourself and keep that control yeah , I love that , I love it .

Go in there , and I just get in there and then when the first couple minutes , the first thing I try to do is think , okay , calm my , focus my breathing , figure that out . I watched your the Wim Hof documentary and that's that's the breathing that I try to do along a good , forceful feel my whole lung , both my lungs , with oxygen and then breathe out .

And I've noticed that if I focus my breathing , I start shivering way later than if I just we're talking and I'm and I'm distracted . Then I'll start shivering right off the bat . If I breathe , I focus on that , I can go longer without shivering . The first time my oldest gotten the the ice bath , I got a video of her .

And again , my stupid wife , she's got to be a hero and everything she's done ice bath for years , being a collegiate athlete . But my oldest she gets in the water and you can see the panic in her eyes and she looks at me and I can , I can read her brain . She said , nope , you're not any help .

And then she looks over and she looks at Aaron and they make eye contact and Aaron's take a deep breath , par breathe , and you see her and she takes a deep breath in through her nose , she breathes out and then all the sudden , that brain , that executive brain , takes over and you can see it , just a switch , just through focusing on your breathing .

And that's what ? That's again exactly how she was coaching her long , deep breath , inhale and let it out .

That's a new way to look at it and a new goal is my first objective when I get in this water is to take control back of my breathing , because my body's gonna have its response and the faster I can and that's just something to practice so that , yeah , if I can do that and instead of it taking a minute half for me to gain that control back , I can get

it at the point where I can do it faster and faster , then I think that's a helpful physiological thing to get control of .

Just as we wrap up here , I want to end on and you know this whole thing could be a whole another podcast in itself and maybe it will be but I just want to talk for a minute and if everybody maybe shares one or two insights on on this part of just why it's important to do things you don't want to do and why is that helpful for resiliency , for just

overall kind of building character and and just being a good person and and and ultimately being a good firefighter . Why is that an important mess , mental aspect to practice and to kind of master . And then we'll wrap up and go from

there . Like I said , I know that could be a whole podcast in of itself , but for me , with the first experience of doing it , that's what bothered me the most is 45 seconds and as I didn't want to do that and I gave in , I got out and that bugged me and to the point where I just didn't want to let that be how that experience ended .

And but I think there's something to being able to just tell yourself I definitely don't want to do this , but I'm gonna do it anyway because it has to be done . And certainly in firefighting , there's the dramatic moments of fire and rescue and where no one wants to go in this claustrophobic , smoky , hot space right , but it's a job that has to be done .

There's also those moments at three in the morning when the frequent fire falls out of bed and we also don't want to do that , but it needs to be done , right . And how has I don't know how is that impacted you threw ice baths and building that , doing what you don't want to do , mental toughness , and how has it benefited you from your life ?

I know Neil grew up on a farm and just with building that initial is right out of the gate as a kid how has that kind of impacted your life and and made you who you are today ?

I remember in high school it was like negative 38 , 39 one morning and that was miserable . But the cows never took a holiday . Same thing in emergency response 9-1 does never take a holiday . We're there 24 hours a day getting up and saying , yeah , the public has an expectation for us to perform .

When it doesn't matter for doing a lift , assist , helping grandma get back into bed or for doing a surgical cryotherapy , we have an expectation to perform and whether we're ready or not , the public needs us . And I think for me , being able to get past that mental block of yes , I can do something hard as an adult , one of the hardest things for me .

At times like I come home from work or I get home from doing a long day of tree work , I'm dead tired . And then my second boy , john , he's got , let's go play King Goalie out on the front lawn .

I am so tired that is the last thing that I want to do , but I am not going to miss out on a chance to go out and kick the ball around and potentially get hit in the in the bad spot , as he likes to say it and do that , which that's another story .

But anyway , being able to go out and do those things and my brother Jason , he said at the other day he's like being the yes man for your kids , like they ask you to do something every time , it should be a yes .

Every time they ask you to go play Barbies with Maggie or go whatever it is , every answer for those kids should be yes , absolutely , let's go do it , no matter how tired , no matter how bad you don't want to do it . Being there for your kids is huge , and so I think that aspect of doing something hard has really helped me to have that realization . That .

But doesn't matter how hard something's going to be , whether it's a Spartan race or whether I'm combing out a tanglin Barbies hair , like those things , those things they're , they're going to happen , or whether they'll happen or they won't , the fact is I want to choose to be there for those opportunities . I want those opportunities to to continue to come .

I don't want my kids to say that's not going to do this because he's tired , he's not going to want to do this because he's tired or whatever else . And then the same goes for being there with the crew .

Ryan is always hey , let's go to the stairs , what time you guys want to go , and I'm usually dragging my feet and usually the rest of crew is pretty on top . We're like , yeah , let's go . But every time like he says that I do not want to be the guy that says I'm too tired , I don't want to go do it , I'm too sore , I don't want to go do it .

But being there for your crew , being a part of them and then just being able to be the yes man for all those , those little , the little things , little things count for your kids , for your crew , for all of it , and even going that extra mile . We're in a scene he talks about .

That's all about mrs smith checking to make sure that the dog wasn't let out , or checking to make sure that the the doors locked behind so-and-so the nursing home , to make sure none of their stuff is is taken , or going away and make sure they have their phone .

Those little things that we don't necessarily have to do them , but going that extra mile and doing them is going to change us into being that super dad , into being that super firefighter , to being that super example to all those people around us . To just be there and be that guy that people say I need something done .

I need somebody to come dig up my front yard . Gonna do it because he's easily taking advantage of no , because he's . He's gonna do it , he's the man .

Whatever , a couple things for me is one I've always hated hearing like oh well , when you're after , after 30 , you're gonna start to lose one percent of this in your muscle mass and . I saw a thing the other day . Speaking of Luke , he reminded me that I should probably review the facts on it .

There's a thing that's like most people after 30 they're not gonna sprint , they're not gonna purposely expose themselves to cold water , they're not gonna do hard things . And I'm like 30 , I'm 35 . That's dumb . I want to be able to do that stuff way later in life .

I I was told myself , I want to be that strong grandpa and I want my , I want my grandchildren to be like oh , grandpa's grave , he's got it , he'll come take care of this . I don't want to be some feeble sits on a couch kind of a thing . I've tested my body . This is just another way to test my body .

This is just another way to improve that mental fortitude . Right coming back from that , that transfer of primary children's . I don't want to do this . It's gonna be cold . You hate being cold . Yeah , I hate being cold because it's miserable and it's the worst .

Shut up , you're gonna get in there , you're gonna back into the bay , you're gonna take your clothes off , you're gonna jump in that dang thing and you're gonna stay in there and you're gonna do it . Okay , yes , sir , yes sir , mr executive brain , sir , I'm gonna do that . I think that is really important to to developing our brains and keeping our brain alive .

We we have this habit as human beings to find comfort , and once we get to that point where we we're comfortable in our lives . Then when things get really uncomfortable , they're really uncomfortable and I don't want that to be the case .

I always want to be in a growth situation , whether it be going to bomb school and right after paramedic school or right after critical care school or whatever . Like I , I want to prove to myself that I can do these things , and it's and it starts with getting in cold water .

If I can tell myself look , you're smart enough to pass this anatomy physiology quiz , awesome . The worst thing I'll probably do today is get into a cold bath . Oh , but I love that . Now it hurts and it sucks and I initially don't want to do it , but I'm gonna do it . And then I feel like that transfers over into what Neil was saying .

It might be one o'clock at night and the tones go off and you're ready to save someone's life or to do something cool . You're just taking somebody back to a nursing home . That person , who I ? I'm the patient person . They don't care what I signed up for . They don't care if I haven't been on a structure fire .

What they need for me is they need me to be a human and to get them back to where they feel comfortable or they need to be safe and they need to do those things . And if I can tell myself , get some cold water , it's going to be painful , then I can tell myself I can be a human to this person , regardless of the situation .

If it's grandma she fell down , we got to pick her up . If , whatever the situation is , that positive mindset of I can do this , I'm safe , I'm strong , like more than just physically strong , I'm mentally strong . I'm going to test myself every single time , every single day . I'm going to do something hard and you know what I'm going to do .

I'm going to pass that test and if I don't pass it the first day , or if I don't pass it the first time , I only spend 45 seconds in that water . I'm going to beat myself up until I get in there for that two , three minutes and and I pass that test . And the crazy thing about cold waters I don't think it gets any easier . I mean it gets .

I definitely start to notice things like you're talking about taking a deep breath and filling your , filling your blood go throughout your , your fingers and your toes . I know that sensation . I didn't know what it was , but as you explain it , man .

I'm excited to get in there again and to really focus on that catch my breath , tell my breath , I'm the boss and I'm going to do this and then notice those little , tiny , small things and and I know that that mental fortitude will transfer over to doing things that I didn't sign up to do but that person , who , who needs my help , they don't care .

They don't care what I signed up for , but I'm there , I'm there to do it . I'm there , I'm going to be pleasant and I'm going to give them the best care that I possibly can and I think you both hit on this really well .

Work really isn't that hard because you have this bank of experiences that were harder , that you lived and you survived through . And I think for me and and the ice bath the first time , after hitting that kind of two minute mark and I knew you hit that zone .

Then after that , the next one wasn't nearly as hard because my body and my mind knew that that was coming that very first time . You don't know and you just feel like that's never gonna come .

But I feel like as a , as a firefighter , we're always trying to bring control to chaos , right , like that's that's a job description and being able to do that within ourselves , just like you guys said , the chaos of of home life and being able to let some of these things translate over into doing hard things .

But I think , building up that resiliency and telling yourself and if I feel like , if we can look at some of those aspects with relationships the same way we approach an ice bath , wouldn't it be great if and speaking hopefully to my future self wouldn't be great if , 45 seconds after I told my kid , no , I'm too tired to go do that with you , I changed my

mind and went back out . Hey , you know what ? That was dumb . I do want to be out here and I want to do this with you rather than let that decision , but for now , that only applies to ice baths for me . But that's something .

One of those things I want to work on and get better at is is that , even if initially maybe you're not living life the way you want or whatever , it only takes that one , one decision to turn that around and try again yes , man progress not perfection . There we go . I know that there's an effort to try to get ice baths in every station .

Hopefully that's going to happen soon , but certainly come up to 120 . We're getting . We're gonna keep on keeping on get making that better and better . If anybody needs that , please reach out . Of course , these are the experts here , so they're happy to help peer-pressuring into doing it . And yeah , we'll catch you on the next one . Thanks , guys thank you .