Integrating Exploration Back Into On-Field Performance

Welcome back to finding the edge podcast. I'm Garrett, boy, am joined with Garrett Baker. And today we kind of dive into this concept of exploration and how that can be used in the game of baseball and a game or I've often seen various more strict rigid and they're almost like, chasing facing this perfect technique or this perfect model with most baseball coaches, where we could potentially.

Look at this idea of guided Discovery and exploration and what benefits may come from the and to how to deal with things becoming to Wrote or boring. I think that's another thing that a lot of coaches struggle with and exploration, not only keeps things fresh, but it also helps guys develop skill. But at the same point, I also see a lot of pushback to or hesitation when people see all these exploration type things. They ask like okay well how does how does this?

How does this relate back to the sport? And also to, I've also seen People sometimes take the exploration stuff too far. And so part of what we discuss in this podcast is how to properly use exploration to actually help develop skill and not end up. Chasing exploration for exploration sake. We also used a clip from Lex Friedman's podcast with where he had janvier key on and use that little clip to help us.

With this idea of when you utilize exploration, it's important to be able to A great that stuff back into your sport and so that was what that whole clip was about and helped facilitate a good to our discussion. And so that was the impetus for the podcast. One of the other things too. We've also before on this podcast discussed exploration and to me this this podcast is building off of that previous discussion and developing it more deeply. I hope you guys enjoy all the

different topics we discussed. I hope you enjoy listening. To us exploring this topic. Also, if you enjoy our content, you would like to learn more about ecological Dynamics. One of our favorite topics here on finding the edge, we encourage you to check out the work by emergence. We got a great deal going on with him right now to get seven

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At emergent, movement movement, is abbreviated M VM t. That'll be their handle for all their social media. It's also used for their website urgent. Movement.com, you can find all their links, do their social media, and their website, and the description below. Speaking. in the back, the whole element of When it comes to hitting, how can we get hitters to be? More of an artist in the same way that I want to say.

It's like the Five Rings. So the name of that book, that Japanese Samurai, the martial arts book. Yeah, I think five ranks looking up. But, yeah, I think you're right. Okay, yeah.

And I mean, I haven't read it. I know my dad has a version of that somewheres, but I mean, from what I can remember about, like, people talking about it was like, becoming one with the sword and to me, I really I'm sure we've talked about this before but I really want to hammer the point that like know it is a sword as much as as much as like, it's fun for you, pictures to be like, you know, it's not a sword.

Oh, no, it is. And like I want guys to begin to like, for us to see it as more of an art form of, like, how can

we become more? artistic and skillful, but like not in the like these paintings behind me type things like not not that type of artist but like the type in an artist and a way that like you know, when you talk about your you pitchers painting, you know, with the guy with the yeah like it's a skillful type of of Art in more of a martial arts sense and So with that trying to remember where I was going with it, right before we start talking about this.

You tie it tight until like with that like, yep. So with that, like, how can we get teach guys to be have better Barrel control? Because at the end of the day to me, the kidding is all about hitting like that's, I mean what's in the name? Like that's what it's all about and the move has been towards trying to launch balls as far as

you can. And I don't have a problem with that necessarily except for you know when it All of a sudden they use different balls and then the ball doesn't go as far. And then they just become outs on the warning track. Which, you know, I get it because there is there is some stats out there on what the Braves the Braves have had more extra-base hits they had fewer hits.

Then the Mets, the Mets had more hits the Difference Maker between the Mets and the Braves was there there was more extra base hits and I think that's probably a general Fair way to look. At it. But at the same point, I almost think to like if you can also have better Barrel control especially at the lower levels because in order to just even have a chance at those higher levels, like you need to have good contact ability like it. Otherwise you just won't make it but anyways.

The thought process was okay what what types of activities can we do to help improve their contact ability skills and so like you're mentioning pepper. I thought like how could we do a better version of that because the goal is not to just teach them how to hit the ball on the ground because that's all that game is designed to do is to teach you to hit ground balls

because otherwise you're out. And so, how can we turn that into like a more of a line drive game and then how can we add elements of like more wicked movement? Because to me what's cool about that, that old-school game that nobody really plays anymore is that you are learning how to connect your movement and to coordinate your movement and to become more attuned to the bat and how it moves and how you move the bat and how that that all moves in relationship to the

ball. And so I think that is a really cool game that we need to build upon. But that being said, that doesn't mean that we still don't train for bats because bad speed and Hit the ball, far and hard as like all the rage right now. And I think there's some Merit to that because, like, you know, you could argue that, it's all about the pendulum swing, you know, like these things were completely demonized. And now we're trying to learn what's the proper place for these things?

How do they properly exist in relationship to one another? So all that to say, right, just like with pictures and pitching, you know, you're still going to train velocity because blasty matters, but you're not going to, you know, have that be the end. All be all like mean people don't like juuko King for the mere fact that he is, is kind of like a What's the word, like, kind of like a gym rat? Like, it just like, it's just more get in there.

Get big and hit tanks. Like, it's all just the flashy stuff. And there's there's something to that like those those elements are part of it, but it's not the totality of it. And that's that's where Least. I can't remember where I was going with that other point. That that like, I'm assuming you're not, you're not just throwing or just having guys just move all this sort of stuff and not working on any velocity. But oh, I guess this is the

other point. I was going to make, is that And you doing more exploration, learning how to control your body more. You then learn how to Output more force and sure be able to throw harder. So in the same way, if you have better Barrel control and better ability to move your bat through the zone to contact the ball in theory, you should also be able to learn how to hit the ball harder. Yeah. No. I would, is that kind of funny

the social? I've been wrestling with in the edgy side, it's because I believe had guys come, there's other guy and game just through through it, as best outings, he had. And he goes the next game. He goes, hey coach like any prefaces the conversation with? I know I'm throwing a lot better and games and I was like, right? That's what we're trying to do. That is the goal. Like we are we are trying to make you a better out, get or

what? I Obviously, like you could boil that down here, you can go run for better. I'll get or whatever movie you want to call. That's kind of why I sent you here. Job is go up there and get out. Be functional in a way. We're getting out every single time so we process it like that.

So her nose like he's getting better like he knows my focus has been that keep an eye on the center but he's like, you know, if I was throwing two miles an hour harder, I may have a bunch of these coaches that are in the stands, talking to me after like a bunch of these for years. And I was like, fair enough like, and he's like, well, I haven't why haven't you like, as all the other coaches, just tell me. I need to get any of you could just get bigger.

And I'm going to start throwing harder. Like you haven't said that once I was like, that's right. Like I have it and I was like to me like that for one that's like, fuck seal. Like you slap it on. Something is supposed to fix everything. But I've tried Flex Seal, and it really didn't fix anything. I've tried, it's like there's certain contacts, were flexible and they work great. But like, it's not like the commercial can just put it on anything.

It's going to work great. Like so like think he threw that Like one thing I talked about as a lot of stuff we're doing the exploration, the different kind of movements. In the way, we're kind of going through the through some of the, some of the free will say pre throw stuff that I'm allowing them to do. We're not doing a strict, man. Are were allowing them to be. In a word, like I started using

as of literally today. So I think I didn't found it or they re like enough is freedom, freedom within movement. I think they can get the theme from what we're doing. There's freedom of movement. Well, I Gotta Throw aside, I think every comes from a rickshaw strict rigid I'd just like on the hitting side, like you're trying to just output, you're trying to just move fast and hit balls far and and same with like throwing like you're trying to do is very specific

drill. Oh yeah, I'm working on my bleep block, I'm working on my, I'm working on, writing down the mound, from Brighton, the slope, or whatever you want to call it. And there's very these strict patterns and drills and where I've kind of gone with it. We're have a lot more freedom, but I was like, these are the things that I think and a good

way for me, looking back. My we are going to find Freedom and your body is going to find new ways of throwing and be able to Output more because you put yourself under these certain circumstances that we've been. We've been kind of exploring. So I it's that's like the hardest thing is like, how do we keep both? How do I, how do I continue to make him? Go to the game? Keep the main thing, the main thing, but then okay, we also need to start throwing harder like, as important.

It really is because unfortunately it's true, like we're both Juco coaches like likes, you see the ball come off. The bat harder, the guy plug you more gaps or hitting more home runs. Like he may get more. Looks like whether it's right or wrong like it's just gonna it's going to happen if you can you can you can put up a you put four pumps 40 pumps in the season even though you're batting. Average is high like those four pumps.

You put on social media. Like it's gonna be a little more interesting and same of the picture. If like we're 90 91 verse 88 or 87. 88. There's new, you're probably going to just get noticed that just a little bit more. So how do we kind of balance

those two? And that's Kind of where I've gone, we're going to explore more, we're gonna, it might be even like today we had a bunch of guys, throwing up them out and down the mound and just kind of trying to working through that, staying staying on targets, with both of them, but letting them work through it. And I bet they're going to start finding things without me, putting them on this. Rick shrink you have to do it this way and we didn't lose what

the main thing. The main thing I didn't I didn't take them away from. Hey, we're not. We're just trying to throw hard now. We're going to explore a little bit and then we're going to go get it. Oops and we're going to make functional pitches and we're going to continue to kind of hound. That that thought is we've been pitching a lot better than I thought we would right off the bat and it's because of that. That's what we do every single

day. That's that's the main thing and that's the meat and potatoes, I guess we're going to call it that And I think that's where the, I think the challenge and this is where I wanted to play this clip.

I think it actually fits well, because I think there's there's a danger in too much exploration and like, it has to like, we have to figure out what is the, what is the structure in the framework that keeps us on our Target because it's a difference between just doing, exploration for exploration sake. And but like there, And so I think John Verve a key.

Here does a good example taught using using the example of neural networks and how neural networks are great for finding things, but you can sometimes overfit the data in like How is it that you can roll like what's the what's exploration for and then how do you then utilize it to reintegrate it back into what your main thing is, right? Like you're, you know, keeping

the main thing. The main thing of getting out or getting hits or rather scoring runs, if we're talking about an offensive side of things, you said, which is a, is a gem, it's not so much the experience, but the degree to, which it can be integrated back. So here's a proposal comes from Woodward. And others lot of convergence around this card, Harris is talking about it. Similarly, in the entropic brain, but I'm not going to talk first about psychedelics. I'm going to talk about neural

networks. I'm going to talk about a classic problem. In neural networks own own networks, like us with intuition and implicit learning are fantastic, at picking up on complex pattern, which, no, no. So, we're talking about, I'm talking about a general, just general, with artificial and biological. Yes, yes. I think at this point there is no relevant difference. So one of the classic problems because of their power is they suffer from overfitting to the

data. Or for those of you who are, you know what statistical orientation? They pick up patterns of the sample that aren't actually present in the population, right? And so what you do is very strategies, you can do drop out what you do to periodically. Turn off half of the nodes and So, a couple of things. The first thing that he, that proved a key talked about was the importance of reintegrating, things back into like the real world or like, can't remember.

What is it that he said, do you remember what is today, said at the beginning there. I mean I kind of wrote not it's not the experience but how can be converted back or integrated back? I think it was one of those. Yeah I don't know how jealous. I'm not reintegrate it back in heaven it's like basically right here at want to remind you of something. You said, which is a, is a gem, it's not so much the experience, but the degree to which it can

be integrated back. I mean it's because to me that's the hole. When it comes to training. Our athletes is, can it be reintegrated back into the game? Essentially transfer is all what we're talking about? Like can we get it to translate back into the thing that we want? And basically, what he is, he's going to be talking about here is how introducing noise into the system allows for you to better understand. Your your environment, how to interact with the environment.

And so, but we just have to remember that at the end of the day, it's not the well, he'll make this point, I'll keep playing it for wait. There isn't a negative here a little bit. So one of the classic problems because of their power is they suffer from overfitting to the data. Or for those of you who are, you know, what statistical orientation? They pick up patterns of the sample that aren't actually present to the population, right?

And so what you do is very strategies, you can do drop out what you do to periodically. Turn off half of the known. Nodes in a network, you can drop noise into the network. And what that does is it prevents overfitting to the data and allows the network to generalize more powerfully to the environment? I propose to you that that's basically what psychedelics do they they do that. They basically do significant constraint reduction and so you get areas of the brain talking to each other.

That don't only talk to each other areas that you talk to each other. Not talking to each other down, regulation of areas that are very dominant, like the default mode Network Etc. And what that does is exactly something strongly analogous. Sorry, what's happening in drop out of putting noise into the data. It opens up, by the way. If you give people, if you have human beings and inside problem, they're trying to solve and you throw in some noise like literally static.

The screen, you can trigger an Insight. So, like, literally very simplistic kind of noise to the perception system, right? Can break it out. Okay, so to me, this is this is the the other key point right here, right? Is he just said, if you just add noise to a problem and in this was in the book, Dynamics are dynamic or what is it called? An ecological approach. The one that everybody loves. Why can't I remember right now? You know which book I'm talking about that?

No, I don't want that everybody talks about. Yeah, the one in so long I'll be honest like this. Is this partially why? I'm like, you know what, Baker and some ways I just want to jam and just like share ideas because I haven't actually interacted with this stuff in a while. Yeah, I have them. I have the book. I don't, I know I can probably paint you a better picture of the cover. Then come up with the time. I know. Right. This is unfortunate but my city.

It's gonna bother me unless you figure this out. I mean, dynamics of skill, acquisition. I mean, that's, that's one of them. That is the book that is the strain in terms of scale. Yep, dynamics of skill, acquisition. One of the things that I took out of there that I thought was really interesting, was that if you add a Superfluous thing to a task. This is, this is a direct quote, so I'll explain what Superfluous means for those who aren't

familiar with that word. But if you add a Superfluous task to like, say, for example, People they used in the book was soccer, like kicking a soccer ball for trying to score a goal. If you just add like, have them jump over a hurdle, something that they would never do in a game like that actually, helped improve their ability to kick soccer balls into the goal.

And it could just be something completely random and So Superfluous simply meaning, just completely unnecessary and basically it fits exactly what Verve a key here is talking about. All that is, is noise. All they did was add some noise into the problem and it may it help them solve the problem better, but as Verve a key points out here, that's not the goal. It's just like in order for, if you're having a hard time, throwing strikes, if you're having a hard time hitting the

ball, just throw something. Lately random in there and then that will just fix it and it may help. But that's not there's a, there's a potential flaw in that and we've seen that with some of the people who have have gone the dynamic systems route of. They just are doing random stuff for the sake of doing random stuff and it does help, and it does work, but it will only get you so far. Are like, it's kind of like a parlor trick that doesn't, it

doesn't have long staying power. It's not a good form of long-term. Develop. And so, that's, that's kind of what Verve a key here is, is touching out of over fitting for the data and open you up. Now, that means though that just doing that, right in and of itself is not the answer because you also have to make sure that the system could go back to exploring that new space properly. This is Rob with neural networks. You turn off drop out, they just

go back. Let's back that up because that last piece, there is what I want to go on more because I think that that to me explains the project of what we need to develop and what is missing currently within an ecological approach. And what we talked about, like, exploration and why I think it is that people struggle to fully integrate and utilize exploration correctly, and it's a messaging thing. It's a messaging thing.

Because you can fall into this tendency or this attractor of just talking about exploration, exploration and, and it's easy for people to just grab onto. But how do you wield this tool practically? And I think that's what Brave. A key here is, is Saying or pointing out the pointing to try. And what that does is exactly something strongly analogous. Sort, what's happening in drop out or putting noise into the data?

It opens up, by the way, if you give people, if you have human beings and inside problem that you're trying to solve and you throw in some noise, like, literally static on the screen, you can trigger an Insight in. So, like, literally very simplistic kind of noise to the perception system, right? Can break it out of over fitting to the data and open you up. No, that means, though, that just doing that.

Right in and of itself is not The answer because you also have to make sure that the system could go back to exploring that new space properly. This is it a problem that works you turn off drop. So what is it there? That Baker, that kind of stood out to you and just that little short clip. And I'm trying to, I'm trying to, like I'll wrestle with that idea. I guess you think he is trying to say in almost bring it to the baseball terms, kind of bring back to.

That is like, okay, so you get that, you throw some random noise in there. You find a solution buying a functional solution after the random noise, but now you got to go back and back into this environment where you're still trying to trying to figure it out shows. An Explorer, but that random noise didn't necessarily carry over into actually finding functional Solutions. After is that kind of what is your name? Yes. And to build it further be specific, he's talking about State space.

So this is one of the things. I don't know how much you've talked with with Sean and Tyler about this, right? Because you have a landscape, right? That you like in the same way like the reason that a landscape is is useful is when we're talking about a landscape, like we're talking about like The state space of like. So if you're talking about like, you know, Texas, right? Or just United States, you have all this space to explore, but

you are in Tyler, right? So let's say, you are trying to figure out a better way to do something in. Tyler, you go over to Dallas, right? And you're wandering around in Dallas and all of a sudden you like get this insight. Then you have to go back to Tyler to figure out how that operates in exist there. You have to explore now back in that space.

So that's where to me. What he's talking about is we have to, when we're doing our, when we're adding this noise and we're doing exploration, we're not being very specific to our context, right? That's the bit to me, the biggest thing issue with some of the exploration stuff. And this is where I don't think we've done a good enough job. Of talking about exploration and specificity right or representativeness. We talked.

We talked about the importance of Representatives for like yuy everything should be representative and then we go over here we do this exploration stuff that looks nothing like the sport itself, right? And so it's a question of well. Should we then not be doing this stuff? That doesn't look like the game? Over here where were, you know, walking, you know, in weird ways and we're doing different crawls, and all this sort of stuff like we, you don't ever

that's not true. You rarely ever see that in the main things that you're doing in the sport like those are always things. Those are always edge cases. When you see somebody in those positions that's an edge case if you see them. In a position that they would find themselves in an exploration flow movement flow. Whereas, so that's where to me, what he's saying is like, when you're doing this, exploration over here, you have to then, come back over to the specificity, the representative

area that you inhabit. And now find and understand. It's begin to explore with that thing. That that Insight that you gained over here. That, you know, you were doing something that was way. Not related in a way or was tangentially related. You have to come back over here to this to your specifying environment and then play around with that. Yeah, no. I feel like that. I thought he was someone that really well honestly.

Um, but yeah, that that's something I've actually wrestle with because I'm high Exploration with movement and all I would ton of freedom. I mean you see on social media. Like I'll post guys are crawling. And literally as random of ways, As you can fall at times, like I'll kind of crank up the exploration, but it's, what are we trying to do? And it's almost like, on the, maybe on the physical side of things you could look at.

As like, I'm trying to open up maybe a range of motion that you didn't previously had, I'm trying to allow you to maybe find a new Synergy within within your body that you've never been able to connect or put together and that technically within that context doesn't actually matter at all for us because we're we need to if it doesn't transfer or we can't find that on a mound. And you we can't like that new range of Motion or that new ability to connect our movements

in a new way. If it doesn't actually come on the mound. Like what, what do we actually do it for? Other than that, I have fun and crawl on the ground. But you mean there's value in

that? I'll be honest, like, for the love of movement, I think there is there's some value just in that alone but as far as performance doesn't necessarily help us. So that that actually makes a lot of sense to me and like, connecting those two or being able to take what we're doing out of context and bring it, bring it into context. I think is is extremely

important. I think one thing I'll be interested, this might be a way that I've done some form of connecting the two where I've gotten high exploration, but I put it in context and a way where say we're playing catch and like I want to stop we're going to high explosion day where I'm going to allow you to like throw in different unique novel ways at times. But I'm going to put a count on you. So like you're going to throw to his own and you can walk the guy.

Or you could strike him out because you're putting three strikes or balls into into a Zone. And that's that's one way I've kind of tried to connect it which makes it a little more specific, but still high

aspiration. If that if you're going to follow me on how that, how that may play out, which I think bridge the gap a little bit, but that still doesn't necessarily answer the definition of. Okay, so like we found a new insight or a new movement, or a new way to connect with the world like a new way to organize. My intentions of how I may move with like when I talk You dumb like that's one thing we've been talking about.

Like move freely. Okay well that's a new way of me interacting with the world through movement. And how do I get that to carry over from just the warmup period where we're moving around? We're flowing onto the mound, where we're moving freely, just like your kind of I like that analogy of the Dallas to Tyler. Like now we got to go explore

that freedom on the mound. We found that inside of what movement Freedom could potentially look like and feel like because we felt it. But now how does that come on the mound in Context when we're trying to get out with a batter in there. And when I'm actually when it, when it kind of matters, right? They actual actual thing not not just okay, I'm free, right? I don't that I don't feel that

ranch or not, but I know I did. I'm trying to look up a comment that I had the other day because it's like there's so many different things to elements that play in here of as I was thinking about it. Like what you have going on there? As far as like practically because to me what needs to happen in the Eco d space is we need to start. Breeding more structure in.

This is the thing that like At first, everybody wants to go to this Lake. Self-organizing thing, not understanding that things, self-organize around constraints. And so like there is there's you can over structure things, but you still need structure because, like, things don't emerge without structure or constraints, basically. And so, If you are not intentional, that's a that's a side rant.

Anyways, so I'm trying to make the argument for like, why structure actually is a thing within an ecological approach, and it's just understanding that the structure then affords other opportunities. Like, in the same way that okay, things can grow, you know, and and emerge. Organically or self-organized in the wild in the environment you can have all this great ecology but it's not the same thing as having a garden or farming and doing it.

Well like what we don't want is a monoculture right? Like so how is it that you actually in order to grow a good Garden? You actually have to create some sort of structures in order for things to self-organize and to flourish. And so in the same way we need to create It's a we need to create some structures around. How is it that we learn? How is it that we develop skill?

And so for example, like what was highlighted to me in listening to this clip again was like, okay, I've been thinking about exploration is part of the learning process and you're always exploring. But the question is, where are

you exploring? Okay, so like initially, it's about getting your mind to begin to begin to Think in a different way or be more open and attuned to your environment and to become or to put it more in a state of problem solving and to be able to, you know, to like what what 4vq is talking about, because sometimes we can become overfit to our environment because, you know, in the way of your losing, the forest through the trees. Right?

And so we need to break out of that frame so that we can better see the forest. Meaning Like our objective of where we're trying to go and how to get there. In to understand because there's this other element of it to when you begin to explore. And even with noise, you begin to find the nuances about your environment and and you have a better understanding and better Attunement, sensitivity to the environment, how you can interact with with that environment? And so, like this is where you

can tell like to write. Like I don't know about your guys and more your team in general, but As you get to the end of fall ball, like guys are kind of worn out. Like, there's such a routine that has set in that guys, begin to their interest starts to wane their energy starts to fall off. They're not looking as sharp, and that just has to do with the fact that they are They are becoming overfit to that

environment if that makes sense. Like in terms of their starting to lose the, the forest, through the trees. And so, To me, this is where we need this structure of, like, how is it that we begin to learn? And so, That's where for me. The challenge is how do we begin to learn to or how can we articulate this in a concise manner? Because I'm going on this like long tirade on this because I wanted to explain The importance of cognitions because I'm of this place right now and this is

more of just us two talking. So me trying to make a point right there. Cognitions within this framework, direct like have a very vital role and this is this is the thing that like Some people within the E. Cody world really struggle with is cognitions. Oh, you're talking about thinking? Well yeah. Like they're like, thoughts are part of this whole thing and where do they reside and how do

we best utilize thoughts? And that's, that's the thing of like, we're not trying to pull in an information processing approach but we have but thoughts definitely shape. They are the lens through which oftentimes we are interacting with the world and so and to me or intention your intention is a thought kind of, and cuz usually usually people can Can articulate an intention generally speaking.

Not like it could be one of those things where, you know, Jordan Pederson talked about how sometimes will act a certain way and then we don't really understand why we acted that way but if we like think back we can figure out what was the intention behind. Why did I act out? And so this is where In the same way that like we can control our breathing which then means that like oftentimes it's it's automatic or its subconscious autonomic.

And But the fact that we can tap into it and control it means that we can influence the direction and where and how like things are going. So in the same way, like yes, intentions can somewhat be subconscious or autonomic, we can actually input an intention that then changes and shapes how we interact with our environment. And so part of the exploration, A part of how like, where exploration sits sits underneath intention, right? Because how you explore sometimes is shaped by your

intention, right? So as a coach, right, you give the athletes and intention for where to explore, right? You direct them in an area to explore a certain State space. And so it becomes one of these things where How is it that we are facilitating? Or what is this? How do we create like a process by which we have a map or a guide? Maybe a guide is a better term that allows us to make sure that we're actually going towards our

end goal. And so that's where I wanted to kind of like try to put together and then try to articulate, like, how is how does exploration work? And how is this Loop of exploration and representativeness? Because I know I've showed this before, but I have like that, that, that little graph. so that's, that's where my mind is at when it comes to What it is. I'm trying to like, figure out, like, is I how to get this condensed into likely a mini bite, sized thing?

On how exploration? Is a key component of developing skill and it works on every level from the nonspecific to the very specific. Yeah, I feel like explaining yet and I mean, I don't, I don't even know if I could fully like one articulate, it extremely well to like, I think there still things to explore on my end of how it may work and why it works the way it works, right? Because I think we both we've all seen it, we both somewhat understand it but explaining how okay you're high Hi.

Hi exploration in my original thought when I was kind of playing with those ideas and wrestling with his ideas is there's times where you go high, exploration and allow people to be free and move differently. And like you may stumble upon something while you're exploring, which I think is like kinda just like some form of discovery which there's a lot of

value in that. But where I I kind of almost put it into different boxes originally where it was like you're scaling up exploration but you're just I'm down

representativeness. And then I'm scaling down, representative it, or scaling down exploration and then scaling up representativeness, which doesn't necessarily one need to be the case into I think it hurts the ability to actually get what we're looking for, like, in that actual context because that, that was, I was a long guys to explore but not allowing guys to explore within any former context that kind of

looked felt or act like a game. And I think that hurt the ability while we're exploring it on over here, I'm going to take get away once we get over here and I don't think that ever allowed the true connection and we never actually got kind of kind of were talking about, we never explored the the new landscape. Never learned how to explore in a new and a new environment that actually mattered the environment. We actually had the perform and we actually we kind of live and breathe.

But yeah, I think even even with intentions I think in this this is something I've been on a little bit, one, trying to figure out, I mean, trying to figure out cognitions, I Is I think every I mean that's just a battle and you could do period,

right? I mean that's so I mean I'm still trying to wrestle with it and figure it out but I mean coming from a kind of psychology and Sport psychology background like that's obviously where big a big thing I studied for two years and how how to think about the right thing at the right time and I don't I still think it's that's not necessarily a wrong statement and I think I almost discounted as I've been around for a little bit but now it's different.

I think of it differently now for sure but Thinking about the right thing. At the right time, I think still has a ton of value in the, in the front of like, I have up in Shan Shan and Tyler talking talk to them about the Abundant degrees of freedom within your intentions, and on attention, like they can be going everywhere. And I think the most skillful organize, those continuously in a, like the most skillful way to produce the best movement over

and over and over. And that's where the the whole perceptions actions. Cognitions are all intertwined as we through this entire thing. But trying to figure out. Okay, so how now do we potentially go and train like the ability to organize your intentions? Because I think on the mound at least it's where I went with it. Like, I think this is it this is extremely important, right?

I mean, if you can't, if you can't organize and you can't, I guess, coordinate the Abundant degrees of freedom of intentions. Like I don't think you're going to be a skillful, mover, bitching life. I just know. I think you're going to struggle. You're not going. To pick up relevant or specify information. I think, guys, who, why throwing harder become so boring and

better stuff? You see guys all they do is learn how to throw harder and make their slider better and they're pretty good as because it affords you not to have to organize your intentions nearly as well. And pick up a heck of a lot less specifying information and just kind of go up there and just throw it as hard as you can. And that's all you need to do and rip it as hard as you can with your slider. That's all you need to do and you're going to have some severe going to.

Guys, you're going to strike some guys out and you'll give up the occasional tank but more times than not, you're good. But those are the guys who get to those Elite levels, right? But that's why I raised chasing verse chasing. The ability to coordinate your intentions and attentions to pick up that specifying information and the most specify information to go get outs functionally and that's kind of something I've been I've been kind of wrestle with a ton and

how do we do that? How do I get guys to actually get to that point where it's not just worried about organizing movement? That's Great. But organizing intentions which help us organize movement, skillfully And that's that's where our like, it depends on

the context, right? And so for example, baseball, oftentimes does not always work at the same level of immediacy as Field Sports. Like there's there's a level of that when When you once the ball is in play, you could say, or once, once the pitch is thrown, right? The Hitter, then has to do something more reflexively and that's where I was listening to spin a talk about how like, what

language do you think in? And I thought that was an interesting thing, especially for people who are bilingual because he was more talking about that in terms of a bilingual context because I believe his he said this to his wife who speaks French and English being from Canada. And so You know, like language was something that was developed. You know, like we learned language and so what do we think before we learned words? Because we were, we had intentions before we had the

language. And so that's where I think it's an interesting proposition because Like I was saying before with Jordan Peterson, sometimes we behave a certain way and it takes us time to reflect back to to to name what it was. Our intention was why we did a thing and so you can extrapolate that to When it comes to, you know, sports that not everything has to be. Cognitively thought out in words and that's that's the main frame that we tend to see everything

in is that. And so that's where, you know, I'm starting to learn more about this word ineffable, is it keeps coming up on the on the religious side of things and ineffable, just means you can't express it in words and that's what becomes so hard for a lot of coaches. And even players is that there's this experiment. Perience. That happens when we're playing the game that is beyond words and so that's that's where I think this this because this gets a little bit complex but I

do want to bring it back too. To the exploration peace and what we're talking about before because right? When we're doing the warm up to me, exploration has a level of variability. And in depending upon where you are, you can be in these different sort of State spaces, right? You can be in high variability which to me is there's lots of exploration going on and like really low representativeness like you can work in any. All right? I don't have the We all right

right. You can begin to explore up in this area by it and it has some level of specificity and can be part of your warm up. You can be over here, right? But the, the level of representativeness, right? We should say it's perfectly representative but how much variability really is a pers here because your to me, this is Right here has the perfect amount of the represents, all the variability that is contained within the game.

And what, how much variability is occurring at anyone in moment within the game and it's much more limited. then when you're like way up in here because the more you go up at that direction, you could say, Like you begin. You begin to get more and more infinite in my mind. Yeah, it's not like there isn't an infinite number of configurations when you're working here. The just isn't because of the rules in the constraints of the game. and so, This is weird to me.

We're talking about exploration. It works on this Continuum of specificity and variability. So for example, we do some exploration and I find a thing over here in this area. Then I need to take it back. To a place where the, where becomes it becomes more specific. And I'm working somewhere over here, or somewhere over here, and maybe in one of these settings, and I'm playing around with that thing. And so, all of a sudden, when I've come to this realization of Is it looks a lot like Mass

practice, you know? So if used you start to see it, especially like with the young kids like why is it that they are doing the same thing over and over and over again, sort of and they seem to enjoy doing something very simple and mundane is because for them because they're so bad at like their motor skills and things are so novel to them.

They're driving more and more information from each subsequent, go around and to they have enough variability within their own System that like they're creating new new outcomes every time that they interact with the thing. And so that through that those interactions, we begin to learn

how we relate to the world. And so that's where to me like some too because I'm beginning to think about like, okay, if I want guys to understand the relationship between how they move the bat in relationship to the ball and how their actions with the bat. Impact. How they either hit or don't hit the ball and what do they have to do to be able to hit a ball? That's moving in different ways and in different locations? We may have to spend more time.

Doing like the same thing, you know what I mean? Like from this, right? This is whole thing of like coaches being like we need to get guys a lot of reps. And by a lot of reps, they usually just mean, a lot of

swings or a lot of throws. and there's not, there's not like a An intention behind it other than we just need to get a lot of reps and sometimes like, I'll be honest when I'm working with throwers, I'm just like I need you get a bunch of reps and because I need you to be able to have the capacity to handle the volume that you're going to, you know, need to be able to do

work, right? If you're going to want to explore how to throw more strikes, you need to have the capacity to go out there and explore a ton. You know, to put more bullets, downrange to figure out how that how you can manipulate the ball but if you don't have the capacity to go out there and throw 100 throws or 50 throws in

a session just to do some exploration. and then you're done for the whole week or now you are injured because now tomorrow when coach runs you know, more defensive heavy day and you're going to have to throw more your arm, your arm starts hurting You know, so that like that, that to me is like everything is unique, but barring that if that, if it was just a capacity thing, then yes, you can just say more reps.

But if you're actually trying to develop a skill, you actually have to use those reps with intention. And so, I think that the thing is, is that most coaches are looking for a silver bullet. Meaning like this thing is going to happen within one training session. Like just, let's just think about it. Realistically, most often write in a hitting session. I'm going to get maybe four or five rounds, Max.

And depending upon like so, for example, for BP, this is this is our current mode of doing things. It's a 5, 4 3, 2 1, Which is about the equivalent of, I think like 15 swings. So, how much within 15 swings? Can you really work on something? Like that's, that's the thing that I have been thinking of the most about more recently is okay, let's say I want to do some Barrel control stuff, and I spent like, it could take a guy a whole round of five. Maybe actually eight swings to,

like, figure this out. And so, When I'm beginning to think more on and this is, this is something that I have borrowed from Parker Ryan Parker. And this is partially why I want to bring up that sweet but I think it still it's good enough just to give Parker the the recognition for this was talking about levels like what if when it comes to because there's so much complexity to the exploration in the stuff that's going on.

That's like for example if there's a certain skill that we want them to explore and to get to To begin to develop some sort of Attunement or Mastery over. Maybe we just make it like a game like you have these different levels and I think this is the important way of framing it, not just like this is first grade, all right, you can't move on to second order to the next grade or it's like the fundamental skills, right?

And of like, you need to learn how to crawl before you can walk before you can run, and I don't think that's not necessarily. what I, I'm necessarily saying here, but Sometimes it's like you need to spend some time at this, you know, on this which is a better word for level. Like, on this Quest, you need to spend more time on this, like side quest or whatever over here, you know, before you can go.

Begin to explore, you know, explore or come back over to this to the main quest, you know, as an example because to me you know if I want cuz I've just started to recognize like man, for some guys, we might spend their whole entire round, you know, just doing some sort of like check swing or like Barrel control stuff and they didn't even like get any like full hacksaw. And I think there's something lost when you do that but it depends on what your inset is.

You know, because like I was beginning to think of it, like, how do you scale this for a team practice? And to me it's like, hey, here are the different levels.

If you can show and demonstrate that you can contact the ball, okay, you can swing away and maybe it's like it goes forward and back and the sense of like all right if you're able to check swing the ball in play twice, you can take you can swing away but if you miss the ball, Two or three times in a row must make it to. For example, if you miss if you swing a missed by, then you have to check swing until you hit the ball once before. You can take a full swing again

like as an example. So like it, you're guiding their exploration and where they're exploring and how they're beginning to interact with. The, the Implement and this is where it becomes. Where you have to develop the system, I guess, because I think it there's more Nuance to what I just threw out there. But anyways, I'm kind of curious your thoughts on this whole long rant. Yeah, no, I'm, I've kind of got back and forth with that a

similar idea, not. I mean, obviously not the exact same, but on the throwing side of things, but like, I have I have what I'd call my system, right? And like, there's certain I want to say metrics, but certain maybe attributes metrics or Or like skills that like, I'm looking for pictures to show me and like, they're technically in categories, L play off each other all intertwined.

Like, but there's certain things like I'm looking for in like, there's the main ones and if we're not accomplishing these, I'm not going to move on to these next ones. Because like, at the end of the day, like these main ones are gonna probably help us be extremely functional. That's, that's kind of the end goal and is trying to find like, okay? So what's your limiting factor?

What is holding and that's what I Don't try to kind of like one of the weather kind of like the right limiters of this. This one person. What's holding this person back from being the most skillful version of themselves, right? With the, the idea of me, keeping the house of directly the middle because that's what I care about.

The most like functionally getting outs with in a ballgame like what is holding this one person back is all that other stuff that can go on the outside but then think you from the Eco D side of things, like I get I when I think of system, I think of almost at times too rigid. Good and it's where I've kind of gone back and forth with it, right? Like how much do I want to put a system in and put these parameters around this because they may not interact with the

environment. The way I'm in a row think today, maybe interactive environment because of my system, right? And so that's why I'm always fearful upon putting systems in, but at the same time, like that's where I'm almost exploring this. This right now in the fall myself, like trying to live and breathe in my life form, like, as a coach like, I'm now, kind of like trying to skillfully explore.

Okay. What Are the things that our people our players are connecting to that are helping them become more skillful within my system and what are things that may not be doing that very specific thing and I think that's going to help me kind of actually like firm the system down. Even though I think it works pretty well right now. But there's certain things that I've already like I went to go put in started to put in and then I was like, people are not connecting to and this is not

what I thought. It could have been. Or it's not a say helping guys get to where I thought they needed and they was like my number one. Like, if you do this, like you're going to be really good. But the way I put it in the way I was measuring. It was not the way I should have been doing it. So I kind of scrapped it but I thought it was like the first thing. It was like this is the very

first thing. I think you need to do before you can do all these other things and it's people are interacting with the game differently than I thought and it's a little bit like us being coaches like we're a little disconnected from playing which I think hurts us in a lot of ways. I mean us, not which I, which I still respect, all the people who still do play and still try to try to explore these Concepts that they're giving out, which I

try to do every so often. But because I haven't played like, I realized like, hey, if I were to be playing like this may, I may not connect to this, like I thought about it talk to some people about it and they weren't understanding. They weren't necessarily connecting to the system and it literally all I was trying to do is like the idea of committed pitches and like, almost like intentionally fine.

Hang out what their intentions were and how well, their intentions are goals where every single pitch, but then I made it to cognitive and I made them think about intent. Their intention. Every single pitch too much. And if they were focused on that specific intention and that wasn't, that wasn't necessarily the best thing for specific

people. Maybe it's not a certain people at certain levels needed that, but a lot of guys didn't, and I also think, and I think we kind of you hinted at this earlier, but we don't necessarily always like connect to the world with via thought. So, My opinion. Like, we don't, you don't miss anything, you may be picking stuff up skillfully without ever having a thought in your brain about what you're actually about to go do.

And that's where I think especially some of my Elite level 3 hours like they're not consciously seeing or thinking, and this specific thing and what they're seeing in connecting to and how they're about to go performance pitch. But they are connecting to the environment, and their intentions are set extremely well before the pitch and during the pitch. And that's where Now, whole thing, I kind of the system failed.

But like again, in Eco these side like because I made a system, I limited some guys at a certain time because I forced them or try to force them to interact with the world in a certain way. That's that's that goes back to what I was saying before of. Like, we need to figure out what's the best way? Like, what's the best way to create a system for athletic development, because every history right based upon your intention.

This is We're like I think can Evan is really good in the sense of it gives you a framework to understand what types of systems you should build, right? We're dealing with a complex system therefore how you deal with that is going to be different than if you deal with a repetitive like you know I'm building a widget type of a thing, like I'm putting out a product. Well, having a standard operating procedure for building. A product makes a ton of sense, right?

And so, That's where understanding, like, what are the what are the principles? That we want to. Or heuristics. Maybe is the better word where the heuristics that we want to use to guide us when we are developing a system for guys, is that the word that you used to wear as a program? I can't remember.

Well yes system. Yeah sister okay so because I think I wanted to play this clip of This chiropractor because he was this goes back to what you were kind of talking about before in this is this is a problem. She highlights a problem that I think we as coaches fall into a ton, especially when we were, because this goes back to the fundamental skills or whatever. You know. Like you need to learn how to skip before you can learn how to sprint or whatever, these sort of things are.

That's where why I said before, like, it should be developed like a open Like a, what are those games called where it's like an open world, right? Like you don't have to go through it linearly but sometimes it makes more sense based upon your skill and your strategy for how you play the game for you to go a certain route and and spend more time over here. That's why I said like sidequest, right? So it makes it seem like it's not a, it's not a thing that you have to go in this order for

you. It might need to go in this order but like that's not everybody like that's where the is is dynamic or diverse enough, that allows for it to fit for each individual because like that's that's our Niche, right as coaches, is that we have a wide variety of individuals in

That we work with. And so we need to have a system that enables us to individualize for each person and that's that's I think is the struggle that a lot of coaches have is like, well, individualization is huge for everybody but it's like how do you how can we have a system that fits to all the individuals and like each individual is is able to in some ways with with some input from us.

But not, that doesn't require a high degree of of input or time-intensive like we don't have to micromanage it but rather we can put in little bits of input and then the system from that is able to self organize its way through your system to find its best fit to also then By that best fit, meaning is able to advance and skill and to perform on the field into. Because what's the whole point of us as coaches is to try to draw out the fullest potential

of our athletes, right? And so our system should do that. And so anyways, I think This guy here he's giving a case study about a guy who had some sort of injury and like what how is his system, or how one of the things that he learned through this case study. So I want to, I want to want to play it. Because I think it touches on like the experience that you just described Baker. You, so let's go over case study. Had a patient who is dealing on

nasty sciatica. Send down his leg for about seven months after a disc. Herniation slowly didn't need surgery. So we've been going to physical therapy for the last three months and doing core exercises but it wasn't helping be super active guy. But by the time it got to me, he was much less active, he was avoiding bending over and he was missing out on stuff. He loves mainly serpent. What did I do first set expectations for Recovery irritated.

Sciatic nerve is a lot like that pissed-off ex-girlfriend it can hold a grudge for a long time. It's not uncommon to still have pain over a year later. Fortunately most sciatica treatments just For a while. It's not something you can exercise away. Our goal is to get him back to living his life. Will time takes care of this, and he needs to know what could be in it for the long haul or

will get discouraged real quick. Next, I reassured him that the nervous sensitive not damage any safe to move. And I wanted to help him get used to popping up on a surfboard again but broke down that movement into trainable exercises and I gave him a progression to slowly ease into it. Helped him feel less apprehensive sure enough. One month later, he was surfing in which was great. But remember what I said about the long haul ass forward two more months and now things are

not so great. This is why reassurance and encouragement. Judgment is key for treatment because that pain is terrifying. It doesn't change fast. You really needed. Reassurance when two months later a surgeon recommended, a fusion and told him to stop exercising and surfing but we jumped on a call, talked it out, decided to scale back the exercise a bit because he was overdoing it, and I suggested, we shift our Focus back to surfing, so you kind of gotten away from it.

It's his favorite thing, and that was his original goal. My named out, focusing on things. People actually care about has never failed me fast forward. Another nine months and here we are now serving five hours a day, feeling better every month. You could give that sir age in the middle finger for telling him to never run again. There he is. Ripping it.

Did I have anything to do with the sad if it getting better, probably not, you don't really treat sciatica, you treat the person as someone who's known for being Cap. So there's a lot there. Anything that stuck out to you before I go in on the things that I think were pertinent to kind of what you were saying before. Nose rocket. I feel like the things I picked up on it probably stuck. You're about to bring up. So Once I just hate your and I'll play off of it.

Okay. All right, so I mean, the, the big thing, and I saw this, and I've seen this, you know, when I've worked in the facility setting, I've see this happen all the time, when I'm coaching the big thing that he said was like, what is the person's goal like, and what is it that

they're trying to do? We should focus on and sometimes we do need to maybe modify a person's goal, you know, for example, you know, is talking about sciatica and like you're Not like explaining to them like the situation more fully and but you don't completely obliterate, their goal of like, no pain type of a thing, right? So I say that in a sense of sometimes, a athlete may have a misplaced goal as far as like what they want and sometimes you have to modify it slightly.

So for example, like I'm trying to think of like a goal that doesn't actually I want to get bigger. Maybe that's a maybe that's a goal that some athletes have is I want to get bigger. It's like okay. Like maybe, but like, at what level are we just trying to get bigger to get bigger and at all cost? Because you can hit this point where you actually, your power starts to reduce your performance starts to suffer.

If you get too big, like, that is a thing, I guess as much as strength coach hates, you know, and guys who just talked about getting bigger stronger faster all the time, it's like yeah, faster think that is the thing and sometimes when you get bigger you don't get faster. Like there's there is there's that point. And yes, for some people, they have to do it a lot, but like let's just be real.

Some people are literal. And that's that's why I mean like, we sometimes have to moderate guys expectations a little bit and we have to own their goals. But I think at the end of the day, We still have to go back to what is, what is the athletes actual goal? Or what is it that our stated goal is in terms of like what's the long-term goal. So for example, like if your goal is to play pro, well then that needs to be the main goal and then small things like V Lo are a is a subset of that

primary goal like this. This is one thing I've started doing some stuff with Brady Boomerang. And one of the things that are really Shaded about his intake process was used talking about your why? It's like ask the question, why in terms of like, why do you want to do something? And then, okay, once you figure that out, ask that again, why? I think dig another layer deeper. And then, you know, after you go several layers deep, you eventually get to like kind of

the root of like what is it? That's motivating you and driving you. And what is it that you really want? And once you can get to that then everything else kind of flows from that. Cuz like say for example, we're going back to the goal of like I want to play pro. Well then there's certain things that you have to do just to get you to the dance. And so that's where, you know, V Lo does come into play. At that point, it's not just about getting out.

Like, if you are, like, I want to be successful. Right here, right now. Then yes, getting out. Figure out. How can I get out at this level that I'm currently at? Whether it's D3. Juco D1, Etc, it doesn't like it doesn't matter. But if your goal is to go to the next level, then there are certain things And prerequisites that need to occur to get you to that next level. And so, that's where we do have to kind of come back to. Well what are the goals that we

are trying to to achieve? And that's where it's hard as a player, right? Is to understand that for the player there are, there are multiple competing goals that are often times going on, because the coach and this is nothing, this is just the cold hard. Truth of the, the fact of the matter, the coach is trying to win games for their season. I can't mean and players need to understand this is that that is the main goal of the coach. It's not to help you to get to the next level.

It's to get you to perform right now. I mean it's just it's just that is the superseding goal. Yes. If you're at a Juco, their goal is to also help you go to play at the next level but that quite honestly is secondary because like that it just Falls s i you know that's just the reality of it. But anyways so then To me though like that that's the main thing that moderates. What we're doing when we're

talking about system, sorry too. I'm gonna have to put that we're transitioning for the people that are able to transition very easily. So To go back to the system

element. We have to remember like, what is the primary goal of our system and we can't get caught up in doing like a thing that we think is subservient to that goal because when that gets in the way of the main goal then we have to move away from it. And so the system should be flexible enough or have some sort of self-correcting mechanism to push you back towards that main goal. And so that's where I think too many people get.

Is why, for example, I really for a while did not like the word process, just trust the process. Because so often times that meant focusing on minutia and not focusing on the main goal and that's the thing that like, for example of why representativeness is such a, an important theme to me is because representativeness, at the end of the day, is that kind of that goal that were searching for.

Because we want what we're doing to transfer to the field. and so, I mean because at the end of the day, it's about performance and its performance on the field. It's great that you can throw 100, that's awesome. But if you can't throw it anywhere near the strike zone and you're hitting guys in the head, like it doesn't matter.

Like you're just not going to last and and somebody is probably not going to draft you if it's 100 that goes everywhere and your you know your strike percentage is like probably less than 50% you know, like I'm sure like nobody's taking you if it's like 30%, you know like As an example. So that's where we like, Having having something that moderate sit what you're doing. And that's where I go back to

whatever it is that we're doing. It also should be something that aligns with what it is that the player wants like our system should encapsulate that and should be able to satisfy that or scratch that itch. And so that's that to me is Is looking at like, how does this live and breathe? Because Aaron's example, to me is how it kind of lives and breathes because he has the exercises in there.

And then there was a setback and then when this setback occurred it was like let's go back to the main goal. Let's go back to our original goal and then that help the progress go go forward. Yeah. No I think I have those really good. Chase example. I think one goal. Finding main goals for one is really hard sometimes for players like actually knowing what the bees have.

You asked the majority of like the pictures probably early in the season what their main goal was it was probably does just throw harder like Rashad they're harder and and I want to get bigger only strengthened and he'd be more the weight room and I'll say at recruits out a lot, I used to ask them what the limiting factor is and they're like I'm not I'm not strong enough, my big enough as like maybe but possibly be that pressure that could be like to be alone.

Actor. But that's when you say something like that and like that typically shapes what your goal is going to be like, okay, like if that's really what's holding me back? My goal should be. I need that. I need to fix that. I need to get some, I need to get bigger.

But what I've noticed is guys who all and on that, and then we'll lose what the main thing is actually, what the main thing is because they'll talk about that, they just think this is the main thing and then they start feeling like crap and then

they can't move as well. And then, yeah, you're bigger and you're great in the weight room but like I can't You on the field like I hit it. I literally cannot put you on the master so bad it just literally the the art of picture and that's where it trying to figure out that balance of both. Like yeah, I'm getting stronger. This church going for it. That's fair like getting bigger. Yeah I'm a potentially help.

You may potentially hurt you like there, it could go both ways but like finding how to do that. But then within the framework of the team goals, as well, as we talk about it all the time, like especially when I'm when I'm doing recruiting and myself have been playing with, is I talk about their goals. But I talked about team goals as well and try to get them excited to visit their one aligned with

that. Like I don't want, I don't think they should be coming to our school just because like, that is at the end of the day, like our main goal is to try to go and be professional Championship every single year Premier Anna and within that framework your goals fit within that framework. Fair enough. But if you do things that take you away from being somebody within the two years are going to help us win a National Championship.

Hippies, you just want to get drafted her say like you're not going to be a good member of the Society of the Apaches and if you're not good, number of the side of the Apaches, then you're gonna, it's just going to, you're going to pump a book. Things are kind of just gonna spiral on you and then we me coaching use gonna be a conflict because how much just a coach you to be matching our goals. But you know, you want to try to match your goals. You're trying to match your

goals. As I was blending the two it to same time and I've learned a lot about that at Yuca level. It's very much A blend. It's finding the goals, how your goals and their goals matchup, and how they blend together because they do. I know there's always a way to do it. There's always a way to make a match, but one doing that and having them understand that and like I think a lot of times you're spending time and having them, let him I'll give him space to think about that a lot

too. I think they a lot of times they don't have that space just the literally just allow them to come up with a goal and consider the team goal and how those come together and what actually matters and I'll kind of push Back on that a lot. Is it yet?

If we'd like to think about intentions, like I'm helping just simply guide their intentions about how they may potentially go about their work day today, know that this is, this is actually the main goal or everything's working into this, and all these other components velocity, getting bigger, all that will work into that. But what's the actual main goal? That's the win, a National

Championship? We went to a national championship or you're playing the stage is probably more Scouts are gonna be there for more Scouts are there you have more opportunity and if you have more up to me, see and you've done all of Those things you hit those other check marks than probably better chance that your goal and our goal. At the same time, something is extremely important.

Gotta kind of convey. No 100% And that's that's weird to me. I'm like it it's not that hard to figure out how to at least in my mind to get those goals to align because if we want to win a National Championship and you want to be, you know, the best version of yourself. How can you not have to be the best version of yourself to play on a championship team? Like that's that's where I think it's trying to and sometimes guys lose You know, forget why like what is it? Why am I here?

What was the appeal of like, is it just that I want to be on a team or do I want to be like pursue something that's going to pull the best out of me? And I think that's that's the thing is like when you get the best out of yourself, you're going to be able to play at the next level. That's just in my mind like how it works and when I think about it more simply but The one thing that I wanted to just roll back to and try to explore a little bit, it is darn it.

I gave it away but I want to explore this exploration think again because I think it's so key like it comes back to everything like at the end of the day, if you want to be really good at something, you have to explore. So for example, like because to me like, you know, Like a

funnel, right of exploration. Your way out here and the funnel is wide and you're exploring way out on the edge but then you have to come back and get to the like a small subset of exploration and then you have to spiral back out. But the process of learning is always exploration like, you're always trying to explore and understand, how is this working, and how can it work better. And then it flips to this thing of, okay. How can I?

Explore to find out how I can. Be consistent at solving this problem. Meaning executing in performing and getting like what's going to yield me the most consistency of outcome And so that that then begins to narrow your number of like possible solutions, you know, because like this is the thing of like, yes, there's infinite, but it's not like it's infinite within, right? So there's infinite that encapsulates this whole thing, right?

But like that's not That's not what we're talking about. Like as you begin to like your sport incapsulate, it's a certain area. And once you depending upon like what role you play, it may only inhabit like this space here. And yes, there's an infinite number of possibilities within the space, just in it, just in terms of like just the sheer number. But like, where that Infinite Space is confined is actually limited, which is a smaller number of infinity. I don't know how if that makes

any sense, right? Because if you're talking about, yeah, right? You're talking about like this or this. You know, like finding the edge right? The uncontrolled manifold, right in terms of like if this line represents the number of possible configurations for you to be able to successfully, hit a baseball in terms of just like the temporal constraint, right? This being time that how much time you have and then how you can organize your body to meet this ball, right?

Because it's like, okay, how many numbers are there between 1 and 2? Infinite. But there's there's an infinite milk and so that's that's what I'm describing here when I'm talking like this is what the part that I don't think people have really quite grasp when they say like oh there's an infinite way to ways to move, but they think that infinite means that you can that you can do something way the heck out here. You know, in terms of like, don't take this personally,

right? Like, just like, doing, like Ido portal stuff, you know, where a monkey. I can't remember the monkey stuff. Can't remember what it's called, you know, I'm talking about you mean, fighting. Yeah, fighting monkey, right? As an example, right? Yeah, that exists somewhere out here outside of this box and it's not that it's bad. It's just that you have to take this and move it. You has to come in here. Has to come back in or to this.

Space. But I just think that like this is what we're talking about when we're talking about exploration, is that once you once you get in here and you start to drill down on something like you have, This is such a mess. I hope people can understand. Like, once you like, you, you spiral out spiral in and then you have to spiral out again because say, for example, let's take for example pitching. Right? So you want to develop a new

pitch, okay? So then you spend all this time, exploring different grips, and how to This is the other thing though, like I should add like, it's not just different grips, it could be different arm slots. It could be different risk position along with the grip. So like it's not just one little B different intentions and that's right. You got on that. So, this is this is where where I go to of, like, okay. But when you start to look at that example, right? It inhabits a smaller space,

right? And so your start exploring here, but that's not all pitching. All I'm pitching is is here, right? And so you're you're exploring in this space trying to try all these different things and then you're narrowing in on what's going to get you the outcomes that you're looking for, right?

Because you know the reason I say outcomes is because you may want the pitch to be able to go to different spots, not just one spot it you may need to be able to locate it multiple different spots and so anyways but while you're doing this exploration you can never lose sight of the fact that You have to get back to here and what happens is when we do the exploration, we actually begin to lose the forest through the trees because

we get stuck in the small little area here of exploration and so we have to cycle back out at some point to this bigger, the bigger space in here which where that actually lives and breathes. But sometimes right when we're in the center of this dot here, We met, if we spend too much time here, have to go outside to begin, so that we can then come back in here and better understand how to exist in this

space. But we always have to bring it back to the main box of like what it is that we're doing. And so, to me, this is this to me is the structure to understanding, how exploration lives and breathes within our r. Form of life, I guess is the the most encapsulating way to explain it. But like to, to understand how exploration lives and breathes with in our craft within the sport that we are trying to become a master in or to become

proficient. Yeah, no, I think, I think that's well said, because I think the stuff outside, which I've done a ton of where he's like, they do Patel you talk. I mean, we haven't done. I'm watching your are some of the fighting monkey stuff, but like, heavily influence from either part-time, some Ray Kelly and all that like stuff that doesn't necessarily carry over since I'm a queer techno. I'm outside the box. Like that is nothing to do with

pitching. There's nothing to do with getting out but things like maybe Global intentions, right of freedom. Of the ability to explore because I think exploration itself actually has transfer when I'm exploring how to get now live in game because of the intentions, I've set about how I may go about doing this, right?

And so, I think those those things transfer about the question, I guess I always kind of run back to, is there a better way to go about exploration and having it within context, more often and keeping it more representative? I think there always is. And I think that's taking us more into the box. Keeping us in the Box, bigger in the Box, I guess, while we're maybe exploring something that's technically smaller, but we keep it more within the confines of

the actual thing that matters. So instead of just taking like that pitch grip design or like pitch design, we're trying to explore new pitch. But is there or should I potentially make it? Where I am trying to find a new

pitch? I'm exploring grips, but I'm exploring it with in So, I think this is ideal, I'm exploring with in context with maybe a batter in there and maybe that's not the immediate, but that should be something that goes in there fairly quickly, but you also write formulas doing that, right? Well, write this because this is, this is like the whole Quest thing, right? Because there are certain quests that are easier than others

insert. Like so, for example, I keep thinking about this in the sense of, right? And part of why you have a Sandbox is so you can explore, right? So for example, with different, I have to think about different video games, Right? They give you the the world editor, right? So, all of a sudden, now, you can go and construct different things that then helps you actually understand the mechanics of the actual game itself, right? And you can actually take that and go back into the original

game and like, do it better. The other one I think of, as like, there's a training mode where you can, there's no, you have infant a number of lives, right? So to me, there's, there's always a place for, for example. Well, why is it that you might not want to have a batter in there is because you Just you want to have more freedom to

explore, right? Like I posted in the retweet, like why having a batter is really good because now you have the fear of hitting a guy and that's going to shape how your pitch is going to move, right? And so where you have to attend your focus, but if you're just, so if you're at the beginning stages, right? And these are things that people implicitly understand, but Of like, Okay. So let's have nobody in there and just throw the ball.

But right, if just like, let's just see how we can make it move, I can take really big risks and there's that, that that's where it would be like, okay, to be there, right? And it's only for a time, right? You're not actually playing the real game, right? I keep thinking of like, for example, the from the PS2, I had Dragonball Z game, right? And you could like, just go into training mode or even, this is a better one for people. Smash Bros, right?

Most people played Smash Bros and like if you go into a mode where you give yourself infinite lives and go play against the computer and you can just try a bunch of different things, right? Like that's what but that's not playing the game, right? That's not going to get you new players. That's not going to wind you. You know, when you actually play the game to get new characters and all this sort of stuff, right?

Like you're not actually playing the game when you're doing that and so so you can't just only ever You can't say that like I'm really good at Smash Bros. If all you ever do is like play with infant infinite lives. Right? So, in the same way like you will have to go outside of that that realm. And so this is this comes back to like, well how much this, this to me, is the, the key component of breast understand where these things are placed.

Is it comes back to time our time management, right? Like is how are we managing our time? And that will dictate when and where we are spending. Our time in these different places in terms of like the representativeness and the exploration, how much information is present because what you just described there, right? If you take out the batter, all you are doing, is you are doing a task simplification, right?

You're scaling your scaling, the task down, you're removing out certain pieces of information, right? Because, like, this is the thing, people need to understand this. And this is why at some point,

we should just make a hole. Video, just unlike some of the basics of like, see Cody. Hey constraints, the people people, the biggest misunderstanding I run across all the time from people is there is they say oh yeah, it was cool when I started adding in constraints and using the constraint, let approaches like guys, let's just understand that. Constraints are always there. You are always manipulating constraints, you are always using again straight. Let approach.

It's a, it's as if like one day you're like, yeah, I started, I started using the gravity approach. It's like or, you know, like, you know today, I just learned how like for example breathing like I just learned how to breathe. Well, no, you've been breathing your entire life. Like, you just have a better understanding. And now, you're more aware of the fact that you have breath and you can control the breath, you can manipulate the breath it in the same way.

Like, constraints are always present in. This case actually came up when I was talking with a strength coach, right? It's like yeah, we started, you know, using constraints in the weight room. It's like, well, my friend, my friend, you are always. As using constraints in the weight room. When you put a weight on somebody that is a constraint.

It was always, you were always you're always using constraints and that and it's just a different way of understanding how to manipulate and use constraints. That's that's where it's like in the same way of having a breathing practice like you were always breathing. But now, by having a breathing practice, you begin to learn how to utilize the breath more effectively. And that to me is what the constraint let approach is is its teaching you how to use things that you always had.

At your disposal and how to use them more effective.

Yeah, it's skillfully. Manipulated constraints is lot more power than like just slapping the I'm using constraint and that's where the representative and exploration thing and what kind of how you're manipulating this trance is really enjoy it because I think, yeah, it's intuitively like everybody, you're trying to explore, you make it as on representative without even knowing representativeness, or anything like that or understanding exploration or how

that may may lead to a skillful skillful action, right? You you're going to scale it down like this, what everybody does? I feel like And that's where to me. It's like how, how quickly can you scale it up and Ike? How how do you become attuned as a coach to knowing when to scale it up?

And we're not to, because another thing like I've been thinking a ton on is in context, when you have a batter, your intentions are so much different that for me, throwing pitches, like I will literally legitimately just Shine the Light. And all, I mean by that. And this is stealing from Tyler a little bit Shine. The Light on like, okay, I want you to this next Sex breaker like try to get a swing and Miss to the righty that's in the box

right now. Show me how you would go get a swing and miss and the dude has as Spike to Breakers and lost a couple arm side is Breakers, is not there today or is lost them all arm side and they're kind of just hanging in or not even closer. Strike Zone. I shine the light on the batter and how he met May potentially go get a swing and miss or just tell them like, hey show me how you make it a swing and Miss pitch. And the pitch is right where he's wanted it the entire time.

And all I did was shine a light on. Hey, like, go get it. And miss here. And that's where sometimes where I think trying to do the pinch design thing and we don't have a batter in there, the intentions are so different. That it doesn't actually happen within context. Once you try to like, yeah, you created you created this pitch, or maybe you found that, maybe

you found the grip. There may be potentially, and maybe you found a way to potentially go about throwing it, but then once you put in context, it's going to change so much that it doesn't necessarily transfer. Where that where I'd rather you connect immediately to the batter, how this would specifically beat this guy who's

in the box, right? And how we can skilful use it because I think that speeds up the process of now being attuned to how this pitch within context plays when which matters like how I can get an out with this pitch, if you're kind of following that because that's what I've noticed, a lot is

connecting the pitch. How you want to move the pitch to the batter actually has led to much more skillful action, I've seen than just like working a pitch design when there's the catcher back there and that could I could go a whole new tangent of Y. I don't, I've even got away from targeting a A bit in certain ways because of this specifically, what do you mean by targeting? What's your definition of targeting? For those who aren't as familiar with that term?

I mean, targeting. What I mean by that is, was such that the pitching context is, like, simply just like me, I'll throw into the glove, like you, I don't even necessarily know if, you know, I'm going to still play with some different ideas on this front about what may be best for certain people and certain players. Because I think those people that are less attuned and more tuned to the batter and what they can pick up at certain times.

But like I find people connect To skip like to the game a lot better. When they're connecting to the batter and how to beat the batter verse, they are just throwing a pitch to a glove. Like I think certain people who are live and dead context and dead just simply means like there's no batter there. It's not like the game, you're

just throwing to a catcher. Throwing your playing, catch with a partner when you live there, like maybe the gloves, the most helpful since is literally, that's all you've done. But when you're always with batters in there or you have a coach shining the light on different Current forms of batters and how you can potentially go beat them. I think. Players connect to that a lot better and their pitches a lot more. Skillful. Any intentions, a lot different in their attentions.

Not just like, oh yeah, I'm throwing, I'm 32 a glove. Oh, now I'm throwing to the small logo in his glove. It's like, that's great. Well, the catcher may not be where you want them. That may not even be the best spot for that pitch, where what you're connecting to like, that could be completely and especially one knee down. Now, like we got catchers, put in their glove, on the ground. Okay. Now what am I connected to it? And I've played with different things, like on the, on the

chest. Tector and stuff like okay, you work through this like fill this Gap in his arm but even that, that worked sometimes pretty well. But then I found just connecting them to the batter beating the batter like his attention went where I needed it without having to tell them how you got to look this and this spot with the catcher. And that's where it's like. I think it's less of a targeting sport than it is like you're

playing a game now. Verse the battle which the heck of a lot more fun for one but two it like it's like actually works actually helps And like, I think you get a heck of a lot less domed up as pitchers if you're not. Like worried about, just like Puttin. Putting up all at a specific spot over and over compared to this. Let's go be the batter. You know. Let's see if you have pitch. Can like go go break, the metal bat here.

I don't know. So to to just jump way up there for people who don't like big words. We're going to I'm going to just throw something out there and higher-order variable, right, or like, Like a higher-order variable especially in terms of specifying information, right? Like that, that to me like when we're talking about from an ecological perspective like what a higher-order variable is like you just found one in my mind, like there might be one.

This is to me being a literal list for a second. Right there might be a higher-order variable above that, but like that's that's higher than that. The other things that we've been using so far, right? And, and that's where to me, I don't know, I'm just thinking about the listeners at home, right? Of just like they're not familiar with this term higher-order variable but I mean, I don't know. It just and I think like some ways itself explain it's

self-explanatory but still. But like look, this is also why I say like ecological approach like Part of the reason why I'm so enthusiastic or like, just try to beat this drum of hey, why why you guys should go learn about. The ecological approach is, is because all this stuff lives here, like, there's so much stuff here, that will help you be a better Coach and And yes, like so, for example, this is a good great time to like organically plug this right?

Like emergence has some has some, like material, like this is where, like, go check out their stuff at emergence like their blog, you know. I'll have that linked in there, by the way, this is a good time to throw out there. We have a great promo deal, going on with emergence, you can get seven percent off a lot of their courses, the the majority of their courses. If you just put in finding the

edge 7, you can get seven. And off the majority of their courses and and or if you know F if you can't if you don't want to type in finding the edge 7 you can type in just the initials for finding the edge and put a 7 after the end of it and get 7% off like again like this is just a way that I think people whether you know you go read some papers like maybe we'll put together a resource of like really good papers.

I know emergence again, plugging emergence emergence has somewhere out there and if you You want to know I'll go find it. A good list of resources of just papers and like that's a good place to start because it's much shorter, much more manageable. I'll probably put together a list that I like of like papers that just explain what the ecological approach is. But like there's just so much

there. You know like all the criticisms that people have of the ecological approach most often times, it's like you do know that that is within the ecological approach. Like this thing that you think it's missing, it actually has, you know, like you don't really individualize to the person know like there's this whole thing about like co.design and like meeting the scaling it to the individual fine, either challenge Point.

All of this is encapsulated within an ecological approach and so Yeah. That's that's just my whole rant for like why because like through our conversation that we just had their Baker like Like, you could begin to see how these Concepts come to life. Like At first, like this is, this is the whole thing of learning, like, how can you this is, I don't want to make this too aggressive, but like, all right, you do you want your players to listen to you and to

struggle through some new stuff? And yet this is this is the part that I just, I don't understand of like, we, as coaches, like, why should we think that like it should come easy to us? When we know? Well, that's not true because I do think Some coaches think like it should just come easy for their players but like right like so on that and that and that no like that's totally that's totally fair and fine. If you want to be that way, but just like to me, right?

Like if we understand that part of growing is like things are going to be hard. Like in there's going to be that period and that's what that's what like on a personal side. Like that's a place that I've been trying to grow because I'll be honest. Like, I'm just like everybody else. Like I want it to come easy. But like, if you want to be Like there is this going to be this period of feeling stupid. Like you don't get it.

Like you're not fully have a grasp on it but like if you work through it, like That's where like this stuff begins to pay off later on down the road where you're going to get these like really cool insights where you begin to understand things at a deeper level and begin to see connections on how things work like, because I just feel like for example, just to highlight that whole point of like, that's a higher-order variable there,

right? Like, that's a thing that's gets to, that's a more simplistic way, right kiss? Keep it, you know, keep it simple stupid, right? Like, that's what you did. There is you Is you found a way to make it simpler? And that's what I think. Again, an ecological approach helps us do. Its it gets us back to figuring out how we can keep it simple.

And keep it simple in a way that gets us the outcome that we want because a lot of times when I see people trying to keep it simple, they're actually giving you a shallow version of of the sport meaning. It doesn't encapsulate like it doesn't actually allow you to like because there's always downsides oftentimes in the shallow stuff. Whereas The higher-order variable that you just gave their of. What would you do here to get this guy out? Like, how can that ever go

wrong? Like, that's that's the question that I have there is like how could you go wrong if that's your North Star. Like that's that's why I say of like there are other things that people use as little Band-Aids to keep it simple to simplify it to some to for the athlete. But yet it handicaps their ability to, it doesn't give them durability and robustness and adaptability instead you just give them like one option and that to me like you're actually

making a fragile player. And so that's why I think like again like this stuff is so powerful is because you don't have to sacrifice. You don't have to compromise on what you're giving to the athlete. Especially when you get down to like simplifying it and keeping it simple stupid for your athletes. Yeah, and I'll reiterate the the information on emergence like

this. A lot of the stuff I'm coming up with now is a lot from Tyler and Sean and from the movement Academy and that is like about meeting a challenge Point as a coach like they Bridge essentially has pushed me to the challenge point for six months and even like the last call and I'm still with him in a graduate addition. Like I was I still didn't fully understand some Concepts and I kind of threw some stuff out there and they even went above

and beyond like after the call. So many more messages to help further explain it. And that was just something where I, again, struggling through some things trying to learn it and they are willing to go above me on. So they kind of shout out that Tyler and China in the entire emergency Quran that. But I think a pretty much anything. Anything you get, you get a taste of it, but yeah, all the is now they have the intro, the

movement academies live. I believe and the regular room and cadmium is its inferior steel. I mean, as far as the, as far as the price point, in my opinion, because I, we all do, I mean, as far as coaches, we How many, how many courses do we go through and certifications? Do we go get in? Like I've done plenty of those and like nothing's Revolution, revolutionize the way I've coached until I've done. The movement kept me. So I'll throw you. Throw that plug in there.

But but yeah, I think I think that's something that needs to be talked about a lot more. As far as like coaching goes, it's like you need to be met at your challenge point and like consistently and I think I see a lot of and you probably seen it pretty simple. Pretty pretty.

Similarly, like people are very comfortable Their jobs and like, they'll hold their jobs and a lot of places if they don't necessarily like challenge their ideas or make do the best for their players or like, try to push themselves out of their own comfort zone and out of their own knowledge base and try to learn. Learn a little more. And like, as far as what I've learned is like the ecological approach, like it almost like it almost dumps it down in a way.

Like, I literally just totally guy to, like, just try to get the guy out. That's at the end of the name of the game, kind of, right? I mean, literally like if you go back to playing football in your backyard, where you trying to do, you're trying to get the guy out, Out, and when big, they originally played baseball. I'm sure the guy in the mound was literally just trying to get the guy out, like the origins of the game, probably originated, somewhere around there, and it's

almost bring it back to that. But yeah, there's times where we can take it away and we have Technologies where we can take a deeper look into things like we never could. But at the end of a, for not connecting the person to the actual problem. Like, we're just creating guys who come off the mound after giving up a three-run pump and telling me it was a good spot and a Edge. Like unfortunately. It wasn't. Fortunately, like it's a three-run home run.

And now we're down three. Nothing here. And, and they're taught me was a great pitch because in the deadbolt pens, they've been throwing most of their career that would have been a great pitch, right? And that's what that's the one thing that this is, this whole experience has illuminated, the man's, like the deadbolt pain and like all. Yeah, everybody types of op all

great pitch right pitch. Like well, not really because the context I just gave them was actually an 02 pitch and he just dropped a curveball And middle middle and that my Hope was damaged. I really do because that was not, not the pitch. We were hoping hoping the throw there, but every all his buddies behind him, saw it kind of broke and it was in the zone. So they're all they're all hype

form or one. If your Wipeout slider and the context was we were down 10 and see you throw a ball outside Zone to write like that wasn't, it wasn't? It wasn't biting on it, like, right. Like there's there's that element of it of, like, sometimes that pitch is the right pitch, especially when the guys biting on when you get a swing and Miss. Like, yeah. That At is the right pitch there, right? I mean there's the other element to their of when you when you do things in a decontextualized

environment you actually. What's the what's the word for you? You set up like a give guy's unreal unreal. Yes unrealistic expectations but it's like What's a whole thing of like you you give them a false Vision, you know, when you, when you say to a kid like oh yeah, you're a D1 guy. And then they end up like D3 and like, you know, you kind of give them this false sense of security in terms of like you're not Yes, there's something there

right? When what you see but you're over inflating, what it is that you're seeing, because what you're doing is you're setting them up for this big cognitive dissidence, when they go out there and they know their stuff is good and they just get absolutely shelled. That mean, this goes back to probably the last podcast that we recorded, right? Wherever we just going on this long rant about the gone. Yeah, right. Like this is this is gone is probably a perfect example,

right? They are going to Prague on and telling him dude. Your stuff is good. Yeah, like you're just, you're just having bad luck. Whatever it is. But what is going on psychologically for that guy, right? The cognitive dissidence. And like how inflated light, right? And then all we're doing like right deep inside and this doesn't help an athlete succeed. I mean, maybe it does eventually, like, I don't know, like, there's just, there's to me, there's something distant.

Are we lying to the athlete? When you're just like, hey man, your stuff is good. Like you just need to hang in there. I mean, in some ways because these guys are like good, like how much of it is is like just hanging in there and how much of it is of like, because I mean, we see this, we've all been a part of teams where they just keep rolling out the same guy and he keeps on doing terribly and he's had a bazillion tries and eventually he goes Pro.

I mean, I can think of one school that I was at, right? He did eventually he had some bad years, really bad years. And I know psychologically for that kid like how tough it was, but he eventually got a pro contract. How much of that though? Was just the mere fact of like, he got more opportunities, figure it out. Then other, guys, You know, like how much of it is is just like you're allowing him to succeed through just like putting them

back out there. I mean that's that's the traditional model of like the processed the pro style system is just like because like I saw this my first year in Junior College of, we had a guy who was not our shortstop. Like we had all these injuries and some academic in eligibilities and a guy who is really more a second basement, or third, baseman ended up being our shortstop. And he could not for the life of him. Throw a guy out on a slow roller to short, right?

Guy, hits a weak, ground ball to short, where he has to come in and charge. He would always the guy would always be safe because he didn't understand how aggressively he needed to go and attack. But it wasn't that he wasn't capable but just he didn't understand and it took him 52 or 54 games to figure it out. We had like two games left. It was like it figured it out right at that point, it took him that long to figure it out and like that helped me understand

like how the Pro system works. I'm like, oh, they just play a ton of games, like they use the game as it as a teacher and this. It goes back to like the biggest criticism of an ecological approaches. Oh, you're just play the game all the time. Like why don't we just play the game? Because it takes a long time for you to develop the skills. Like you just have to play a lot of the game in order for you to

develop those skills. Whereas the ecological approach, what we're trying to do is to figure out what, slices of the game, can we give you, right? So like if we go back to You know, like a video game analogy, right? If I can give you more slices of like the part that you need to get better at like how much faster you going to, then when you go back into the normal game environment, how much better you're going to be able to then do those things that you need to

do? Like ensure up those weaknesses if that's all we're doing. We're just we're just giving you a better way of doing what we've been doing before of like practice. That's that's all it is. And so That's where I forget. The the whole initial jumping-off point of my rant. So, That's that's just, you know, part of the wandering around because again, I like it just all comes back to like this this point of like what is it that we're trying to do? Like an ecological approach?

Helps us helps us keep on track, even if I lose the main point of the reservoir is going. Yeah, I mean in the, the rants definitely definitely take shapes and different different forms, but they always do contemplatively connect pretty well. But yeah, I mean I think I think one thing, one thing your kind of kind of bring it up is like the ecological approach we're taking slices.

Is trying to find what is maybe the missing missing information that they're not connecting to potentially and taking slices of games and helping them. Kind of actually one connector to explore those those Realms which they called vehicle approaches very well and I think yeah, that's one thing. I think we were talking about it.

Like I'm going to be hitters why they could potentially use front flipper team or as we say so much live arm, they see it all the time where that stuff may be more useful when you don't see live arms all time. I like you probably shouldn't be scaling it down to that point because like front flip and teach it doesn't doesn't translate.

You're not seeing you're not seeing the live Army, not being able to pick up that specify information, that is was kind of it. What's been interesting for me, the Juco level a little bit. As I mean we play, we play it a lot in the fall, like we were playing a lot of games like we're playing a lot of paintings and I think it's helping in some ways helping us pick up some of that information and helping us

explore in context. A heck of a lot more We would say if you're at NCAA sanctioned team because like the vision one, I think you could, you have one maybe take away other games in the spring if I'm correct on that. But like, I think it typical is like one or two games you play other than like, enter squatting in which there's there's 100 value in that. But there's also it's also a little different when you the whole your whole intentions

cognitions and all that. How that kind of plays into when you're facing another opponent. Going on the road and being in different, ballparks the game day, feel and all that. Stats are being calculated, all that kind of stuff.

So that's why I think it's got. I think Junior College actually helps prepare you a lot a lot better for the and I could be wrong in this my first year, but helps prepare you in the fall for the spring than a lot of other places necessarily May potentially do. And that's what I've enjoyed a lot. Like we still have, we're almost done and we probably still have what 343 half weeks left, and we have like multiple double headers and then a five-game series 10. The season and that's a lot of

ball game. Which how many games have you have you played? We I think we were these six or seven and a lot of those are doubleheaders. The lot of those are like 14 or 15 innings. I got any of that. We played 8 games and we have one more left. This is the most I've ever been a part of, and I love it. Like, we play it, play it on and but this is this, this goes back to again. part of the rant that I was on before was like this frustration with Like coaches

just in some ways. Using the just the time, right? Like oh yeah I developed this guy you know that you start working with him when he was a kid. No he just literally went through puberty. You didn't do anything like you don't. I mean like they're just things of like recognizing like I didn't do anything. This kid just simply got better by the process of like the opportunity that was afforded to him. In terms of like it wasn't

anything that I did. It's just the fact that he's playing baseball and this is some of the things of like it works. Sometimes in another At times, it doesn't work. I've seen this plenty of times, right? Coaches want their guys to go play in the summer. It's like but they just spent all this time playing like you hit this point where you get diminishing turnt returns by playing more games, right?

Like the body starts to begin to break down that you can see this with the pro guys like 162 games is like an insane amount of games played over that short of time span. And with all the travel that they do, like it probably wouldn't be as bad, right? If they didn't travel right there, schedule was like set, you know, guys would adapt And they'll be fine, right? And you probably see Byron Brooke Byron, Buxton, play over 100 games right in that scenario. But this is, this is just to

understand like that. That is not a good way to actually develop because especially to for some of those guys like where I'm at. I got a bunch of guys and I was a part of it too. Was like we go play Town, Balltown ball is not the same there, for some guys for younger guys, right? Don't play a ton. That is a good place for them. That's a good, petri dish, like the stakes are much lower for some guys, like that's what they need, right? But for other guys, that's not

what they need either. They've, they have a high workload and they need time off. And like what's actually important. Like, that's the thing that I come back to. If like, okay you got a freshman or a sophomore. Right. That that had a ton of innings for you, played a ton, does he really need to go play this summer? Like, I'd rather see that kid. GO train, right? You can do a deload like, put him in a situation where we figure out like, what does he really need?

What's going to keep him healthy. What's going to? Like he doesn't need to play at unlike. He I'm not saying that he doesn't play at all, like he could do. Games. Like I do think there's like this is where, you know, I think Premier pitching down in a P3 down in st. Louis right where they have the Collegiate League, where they do training and playing games, like that has the potential right where you have enough control

over the athlete. Like, you know, there's not competing demands on the athlete, you can really focus in on like what the athlete needs and really supplement and get that balance, right? Because this is the thing to me of like guys people don't understand that if you just let the system. Take over there are some unintended consequences of that like that's a crapshoot like you're you're leaving it up to chance as to whether or not that

player is going to get better. And there's so many factors that like to me, it's like almost irresponsible, it's like parenting and just being like, you know what? Like, I feed my kid and, you know, I make sure they go to school and I don't like do anything else with them. I just simply You know, just let them be and I just do those basic things and then yeah, he turned out fine.

Yeah, that kid turned out fine but what about the, you know, your other kids like they like it's such a crap shoot, right? Whereas if like you have like an actual, this is to me again, an organized system. Like this is where like the organization element comes in of like having a system. Having a framework, having the right involvement, right? Like it is to me, parenting is a perfect analogy for this of, like, what it is that we're doing as coaching or as coaches,

right? We don't want To be the overbearing parent that like micro manages everything like that. Yes, that can get you certain results. But long-term, it doesn't create a, you know, for talking about like a child and you're better parenting that doesn't create a good healthy child. Long-term, you know, and the same thing is true of athletes, like, why do we think it's different? Like and I get it it comes back to like what is the end goal

that you want? Well, I want to win games like it because you going back to what you talked about before Baker of Well, why is it that? Some guys don't change, you know and grow in terms of what they're doing. It's because they found a fit, right? A functional fit with their environment and they don't want to risk losing that functional fit by exploring with other things. And that's why they say

regiment. And they forced certain things is because they want to get the results and they want to have the control in the certainty that they're going to get the result that they want. That's why that's why it is like at least when I look at that of like why is it that guys don't Just because they have no incentive to change the sense of they like it's the same thing of an athlete, right?

Of like why would you change if what you're doing is currently working, this is the same reason why going and playing Town ball where it's not played that seriously. Like you're not going to necessarily find your challenge point. They're like, why would you change and do something different? If what you're doing is working, same thing with like you're hitting off the tee. You like, why? Why would you do anything different?

If the ball is always in the same spot and, you know, you can swing Down to the ball and hit a line drive. Like why would you change what you do or same thing with like your BP practice? Like if you're able to successfully hit the ball, you know, five times out of ten or six or seven times out of 10, like why would you change that? Like because you're being successful like why would you want to hit off a machine where now you're going to only hit like three or four balls out of 15?

Well like why why would you do that? You know what I mean? There's like just there's no incentive for poor people and so like that's the thing of Unless there's a real reason to change because you because you're chasing a championship, right? And what you did, wasn't good enough to get you there and you're looking for, what is that you can do to get you there? Like you need some sort of incentive like that in order for you to actually change in my

opinion. Yeah. And just apply office and a very practical sense here, like we had a four game or games this past weekend and just kind of absolute wipe the floor, like really look really good. And like a pitching staff pitched. I mean if four games he hit four home runs. I mean I was like, that's pretty much as good as as we're probably going to get in a four-game set with pitching literally every single person, our staff.

And I was actually like, well we we make really good progress, this point and I don't think that's going to motivate them to continue to interact with some new things. I'm going to continue to kind of push and try to like, get in here because well, we pitched really well? Why would? Why would we? Why would you scale up some of the stuff I would do?

Not just stay. Where wrap is it probably It's really comfortable, they kind of got kind of got a feel for things even though I'm changing up a good bit. But like that wasn't the intention after after this weekend because we got about month left. So I was gonna I was gonna intro, some different ideas and scale scale up the representativeness, and a lot of things. And I just I was hoping to and then we go on Tuesday pay so much harder opponent and get

exposed to multiple directions. And to me, I was going into that game saying, aye, this is why I kind of like the amount of games we get to play it. Is because it kind of exposes or shines, the light on a lot of these things that we may potentially need to be working on and gaps and certain people's games that we need to potentially be taking again from that game context, take you out of that game time text but keeping it as context-specific, keeping as representative as we

can but be able to explore it a little bit and try different things and be able to actually improve on that specific thing we're working on because the game the game is going to tell you what what you're probably. Wrong with that. That's probably, again, there's things outside of it. Like we may be pitched really well with the guys Veals that is high. So I mean those are maybe different things at the game's not showing you because we're still functionally finding a fit.

We're still functionally getting outs at that moment and the guys still there go may not be that they want to go. They want to get to the certain level but that's besides the point but like the game has shown us something. And that's where tomorrow we're gonna within a very live setting allow guys to kind of explore different ways. Ways to potentially work out some stuff. They struggle with this past weekend, which was probably the best thing. But that's that was my concern

is like we played really, dang? Well, this last weekend and I was like, why? Why? When I and intro this new idea, or why you we go to practice, and I try to take, like, try to find something that they need to work on which was really hard. So we did really well but I'm still, you're still able to write. Why would they be super motivated? So like, okay, I could work on that. I could get better at that but as already good without it. Why would I need to spend a lot of time?

Like that sounds like a like a lot of work like, you know what I mean? And I think that's actually a really good point, that's where the game shows us, and then we take that it bit or that slice of the game like Tyler. Tyler always says, and then we bring that in the practice and allow them to kind of explore that and so we can improve on it and get better at it right on this goes back to like why guys are like Or why I'm not so hot on the pitching machine.

Why I'm not so hot on you know, BP right? Fastball only BP like whatever like I because it allows you to be lazy, right? This is something that Rob great talks about a lot of like we are very lazy Learners, right? Once, we find something that works like why would we start trying to do something different in this is this goes back to this thing again of like, could you bring up a lot of good points? Right of the one of facing.

Good competition, right? Like facing like, this is the challenge of being a head coach, just put it out there deciding who you play, right? Like, I understand. That are record like there's so much. There's so many different. There's so many complexities right to to coaching, right? Like because there's the recruiting element, right? You're always trying to bring in new and better Talent. Well if you've got a crappy record like it's hard to bring in good talent, right?

If you're because you're always playing good competition, like it's yes you can promote that but if your record doesn't show that we go to face this team like and we we've always been Sing like, nobody wants to go and just absolutely just get the floor wipe, you know, by a really good team like that.

That doesn't invoke you to try harder, like, you just shut down and I think that's where you have to find the teams that are going to be to give you that challenge point for your current team and the current roster that you have like, that's going to probably draw the most out of your team. And I think that is a very hard thing to do as a coach because it goes back. back to again, if you're wanting to Really.

Develop skill, you have to, you have to then scale it all the way back to like right that works at the highest principle or the highest level and now you got to scale it all the way back down to your practice, setting to of like, what's that challenge Point? That's going to Allow people to not be lazy Learners. Okay. So because this is what happens with the pitching machine is like you can develop a strategy that works for seeing the same

pitch over and over. Again, we saw I believe his name was Clausen that the Gophers have he throws basically 98 to 102 or 101, right? Like, we got to see him last Friday. And our best hitter from last year. But you would think he was, I think he was ready for fastball first pitch because that's what he did to the previous guy. Went fastball fastball fastball. And I think it was like well, the first pitch was a hundred.

I didn't read the second Pitch and it was hundred again and he swung through it. He's done it. Three pitches. next guy comes up Lefty, so his righty goes, Lefty goes slider, slider, Can't remember his slider again was when slider slider maybe slider again for a ball but it was like slider. First pitch taken for a strike slider. Second Pitch swinging swinging through it which I think was great for our player swing at

89, right? Like so I get that 89 mile an hour slider and said that a hundred mile an hour fast but then he went after that, fastball it was out of the Zone, I think it was just off the plate. It was a good fastball off the plate for a ball and then another Fastball Up and Away ball and then another fastball I think in for maybe another ball or something.

So maybe it was 22 super or two sliders and then three fastballs and then he comes back with slider after three fastballs completely Frozen but he had no chance at that point, right? Like this is this is a thing that if you want to see how not useful, Hitting off of a machine that just throws fastballs is, it's just go fastball for around and go to curveball slider for around. Like, I mean, I almost wonder, like, I understand why people don't.

It's a pain in the butt, it's a pain in the butt, like, time is everything when it comes to the logistics in practice, but like if you could easily go, Fastball slider, like just between rounds, like, you're going to see like guys are going to struggle generally speaking. When they make those transition, especially the guys who are not as good of hitters. Like, I mean, at the division, one level, I see guys can make that transition fairly easily but your guys that struggle a

little bit more. You know, that one hitter that I that I mentioned before that, you know, finally, you know, turn pro after having some hard Seasons, like, he would be a guy where like that you would struggle with that. And so, but I mean it just shows to me like that, just we need to do something better like in it and I don't still, I don't love I pitch and that stuff, but it is better. It is better. Then you're just you're pitching

machine. Your standard pitching machine that only throws one pitch at it. So like everything is on a scale. So anyways that's my my long rant of like why we need to actually create challenging environments. That also are more representative because when you have that more representativeness, you're going to develop The skill set or the problem-solving ability that is actually going to transfer to the game.

Because otherwise, you're only going to create one dimensional players or players that have holes in their game. When they get back to the actual game, like this is how most coaches overcome. That, that problem, that flaw in their coaching, they just get more talented players.

Like, I mean, I'm just, I've seen it already like, we have more Talent this year and like, there are some, like, we can do certain things and like, leave holes and the like It's just like we get frustrated at the players that don't that are there gaps, get exposed in the game, but it's like, we just, we never, we never short up those gaps in training and that's why they have those gaps in the get exposed. And then the other guys go out and perform.

So I mean, because I asked 11 coach like, what's your secret? You know, and like he's a good coach. I was just like, what's your secret down there? At the Juco that you're at? It's like just like, get recruit better. Now we just get Talent like, oh yeah, horse horse like Talent washes out everything. Like how many places have you gone to and you visiting your

like this guys. Doing the all the old most Backwater stuff that you know towel drill running you know five miles and these guys just still win. It's Talent. They just recruit way better and talent. Just you don't, if you have guys that can already do it, like you don't need a coach it.

Yep. Isn't isn't that Is that sort of a Scott, we actually had a conversation about that we found some of our some of our guys are struggling in certain ways and I feel like they're getting getting a lot worse with certain

methods and other guys aren't. But what I'm noticing is a guys who already have the talent, like they can compensate and get through some of the stuff and they're good, no matter what the guys were less talented, can't do that, and there's getting kind of buried and it was comes back down to like if we had all the guys, with all the Out and we recruited in better like we could coach anywhere we want and we're probably going to win a lot of ball games, we really are.

We could let it just roll the ball out. We're going to be really fine and maybe maybe get our maybe get our systems down and like make sure were communicating alright and making sure like really snow like okay so what other would have defensive positioning as we want and it's all, gotta run. That's all you got to make sure you're on the same page and probably gonna win a lot of ball games, be honest. But, that's again, I mean, kinda gotta go back. Some of the other stuff like the

lazy learn a thing. Just like, I'm back to that is like that's the one reason, like I'm even said it's a sore head coach. The other day, I was like, I'm starting to find little to no value or extremely devaluing your traditional Bullpen set up like extremely, devaluing it. Because I don't, I don't see that traditional Bullpen where you're setting up outside throwing your, for seems out there and then you go to seem, then you go the other side, you

throw some to seems. And we're going like five hammers, doing a couple of changeups and will will cook real throwback. To, at the end with without any context to it, like I haven't seen any yet something. There's some people traditional bizarre, heck of a lot better setup than that, but like, I'm not seeing it transfer over, especially when I'm seeing guys just connect to the information.

And I don't think you can be lazy when you have different information sources coming in every batter and the information is changing within the batter because you're changing the batter changing. The counts changing the umpires own. You're starting. To pick up your starting to pick up nuances on that, the ball

just got thrown in differently. If that changes, I'll give you had in a bullpen where we're just changing balls out even unintentionally, but I think that's kind of helping change some information sources, and it's really hard to be a lazy learner when that stuff is kind of always being kind of brought in and scaled in and same thing with, like, obviously the

hitting side. It's like the one, the information sources, even the same off the machine, but to, it's like, yeah, it's a heater over and over and over. I've seen Guys have really good rounds there that do not look good in the game shortly after it's just that they do not equal each other and they don't look the same at all.

And that's one thing. I've been thinking a lot about and we were we were trying to figure out how to control the running game, a little better and that's been a problem. Like how do you make that like within a practice setting actually meaningful because like we thought, we did something where pictures were throwing, catcher throwing down Runners trying to run weed. I mean, obviously pitches have dominated. We were, we were 11. To the play couple, guys. 972 the play man with freaking

throughout everybody. And then we got run all over on Tuesday. It's a little different story, but it's like, all right. Well, I mean, we were lazy order as we learned that we're super fast, so we can throw at home, we're going to get him out of a single time. And unfortunately, when we weren't changing a looks upgrade, we weren't noticing that they were trying to vote on us and getting these leap bigger leaves a bigger leaves and then

taking off. Now, noticing that even like our QuickTime, so plates in exactly play very well. So it's like, our a scaly. How to how to Now work that where there's maybe some consequences as more specify information. Okay? Now now we maybe have to pay attention to what's going on over there. Maybe we got to work between us and the catcher. The communication lines got to strengthen up. Okay. Now maybe I got to put a battery in there too.

So now we got to worry about potentially walk in them, hitting him. Maybe he's giving us Wing, maybe I'll even let him swing tomorrow when we're working on this because that's another thing that needs to be baked in there, since if I leave a bit of middle pitch and the guys sitting at first base, now, he's going first to Third. It easily potentially scoring pens where he hit it, right?

So just kind of noticing noticing those things and not just being able to find the easiest solution because unfortunately the game the game doesn't exactly reward. Just finding a solution that works. For this one, very specific thing because the game doesn't present that one very specific thing. That that often they wait they very well may often so I mean often but sometimes, but fortunately game is a little more variable than that which is what makes it kind of fun.

Because not variables not very fun. You get very bored. Very quick, very unmotivated, very fast, you know. Yeah, no. And I'm tempted to try to splice and take that to the next level. But I also and like, man, we've been going for a good minute here. So I almost wonder do I want to open the can of worms of built like taking it to the next level in the Practical, how to practically Implement what

you're talking about. Because I think there are some challenges and push back that a lot of coaches would have especially in. In the north. So what I think you're implying how to actually Implement that. I mean, I mean, touch on it if you want, I'm seriously, what will land the plane on this on this going this direction, because I think Because I love the idea, right?

Because it's all about streamlining things in my mind, but like having been doing this enough and being out on the field and and seeing kind of practice planning, like, I begin to understand the challenges of trying to implement what you're doing and especially for a team in the north.

And I look at like, kind of our situation of why I don't know that the hesitation that, I think some people would have even in our situation because it's, um, Is I don't see our pictures being built up enough to be able to handle what it is that you just said, right? Like you would think you would think right being able to just go out. Do a 15 pitch, pain, 15, 20 pitch pain. Yeah, you know, early in the week, you know, middle of the week, whatever against hitters like, it would be fine.

But when you think about it, it's like well, how much more stress, right? Like stress on the system is there in that situation? Versus just throwing a bullpen to, you know, down in the pain, versus being out on the gay male. Like the amount of stress that goes on the arm in the system, like I just think, is more just because of the competitive nature and or what it is, the intention, right? So if you go back to the intention that you talked about of find a way to get the guy

out. Okay, well, the easiest way for me to get the guy out again, back to Lazy learner. Is me raring back and giving it all I got. Right? And so like if my body is not prepared to handle that for over, you know, of course of 15 20 pitches. Like all right now I might have overcooked him and he's not actually prepared then come game day on the weekend, you know? Like that's that's where I like. I think there's the fear from some coaches.

Don't like I have a, you know, in my mind it's like well then I just need to prepare his tissues to be able to And all that. And that just means we have to do that earlier on in the fall to get him do that. But most coaches don't know how to do that. So therefore the question is like, okay, this sounds great baker. But like how do we actually like how can I actually implement

this? Because like I see the whole reason why people just default back to just get on the mound and do some touch and feel stuff is because you can work at a lower intensity. All this sort of stuff. And it doesn't overcook you, you know, our tire you out because they know that's the biggest. Like, I mean, I don't know if you've experienced this, right? Players coming up to be like, coach, I'm gonna be really sore, if we do this, like, how am I supposed to be ready for the weekend?

Like, I'm going to be so sore and like I'm going to be, you know, not be able to perform because you're asking me to do too much too close to game time. Yeah, no for sure. And I think I think one of one of the things not that I'm going to say I've had total success with yet, but one thing I've explored a little bit with some of the guys is like the

principle of okay. Like you're going to be sort like the day after you throw what I want you to do is I want you to explore ways to potentially make yourself feel as good as you can for the next day. And I put that on them in a lot of them. I've taken to that, I believe, at least. We like for the fall I would typically expect me to have to shut down more guys like throughout the fall like okay you can't go this day and I can't go there.

Bees are coming off the summer you don't know how much come on. They're built up is we win it? We fairly went quickly went fairly quickly and two games lot quicker than I would. I would have liked per se especially never having done it before, but we really haven't had many issues at all. And I think a lot of it is a little bit of the movement practice, and I think it refreshes this system, And

allows allows for some more. They're going to college is active recovery and ways that typical pitchers don't get like, we're not, we're not just doing your typical recovery. There's a lot more to it that I think is helping the system, kind of bounce back a lot faster. But the other thing is, I think, I think we are are fairly like

built up at this point. I mean, that's one thing I will say this is the first time we're going to do something like this and we don't have a game on the weekend. So that's that's afforded me the opportunity. To do this. We literally we're over a week between games, this time, which is the first time we have that,

which is, which is good. What was the original question as far as like the argument against like, well, I mean, because the second question I was going to ask is like, okay, if you only do it once a week, like, no big deal, maybe twice, right? If you book and it at the beginning, like, but I guess my question is like how frequently? Because in my mind, you know, if I'm just taking it, what sounds to be like a great idea. Like how many times a week and I

get Get them to do that. Yeah, for sure because the more time that I can get you in this space like the more so it goes back to one of, you know, I don't know if I plug this book enough or before on this podcast, but be a player by, I can't remember her name but it's it's a golf book or maybe it's a him. It's a golf book on like how to

improve your golf game. And one of the things that they talked about in there, even though it's not an ecological book are they, are they may or may not know anything about ecological Dynamics, but they Talk about the best way to get better at the game. And to practice is to practice on the course. And so like, how would you do that pitching-wise? The analogy is, you gotta

practice. Put, put yourself in a practice scenario where you're on the mound and you have some sort of a defense behind you and maybe a baserunner, it's some sort of different situation like and that's the thing of Like I know we kind of try to do this a little bit like it. So, for example, what was it, what was it, what do we call it

potpourri? Can't remember if someone was actually throwing a pitch in, like, there's times where like, we have a guy on the mound who throws a pitch in and either the coach will hit a ground ball or will like run different situations. Like I like that. You know what I mean? Like I think there's some level of throw and like and we put a guy in there that swings a bat and hits the ball like you know, Is working on contact, ability. Not trying to smash it as hard as you can.

But like The goal is to hit it to different parts of the field. Like I mean I don't know like these are these are things where it would be interesting to see, you know, if we could figure out how to Do these things and to do them more frequently like because I don't see any reason why you can't do it. It's just it's never been done before. And it may take a little bit to figure out how to implement it in a way that you're not worried about guys getting injured.

It's like those are the, those are the two primary concerns that a lot of coaches have and I and I think they're valid concerns. Yeah, I would agree. And I think I hesitated to do a lot of this stuff previously because I that's exactly what I was worried about. But one, I think again, the kind of talking about, like, just the recovery process we go through. I think we were, we're a heck of a lot better at it into like, I try to have as open Line

communication as I possibly can. Like those guys that weren't that's not doing it tomorrow because their arms their arms out there for it and that's one thing. Like it's not it's not something I'm ever going to mandate for say like I'm a highly encourage it if we're there in or is it at

100%? Because I think there's a ton of value in teaching guys to a witness at bat 80% and show me how it because I think the intentions there, like just learning how to pick up. Batters Tendencies where he's standing and may may change if you're at 80% first 100% And there's a ton of value in learning it at a lower intensity. Since you may pick up something

that you would not have. If you're a hundred percent, you may resort to a different strategy like to talk about just rear back and fire it as hard as you can or for 80%. We're trying to hold a runner and we're trying to make sure this guy doesn't have to crush me. You may have a different strategy and actually I played a little differently where he may, he may be a little quicker to the plate but you have to be skillful, still throwing a

pitch. So you Be picking up different information and explore space that you never have before and actually find something there, which I think is extremely value. But I think at least to our guys

have done that pretty well. I think like they Mill, scale, intensities fairly well, and kind of learn that just will do, will do different bullpens of different intensities with live information involve where we have umpires, we have stand-ins, even if it's even if it's why we call it a short box, I don't call it short boxes but that's what everybody would know it as

with a short box. But I understand and I have an Umpire but our intensity is a Heck of a lot lower since we're literally catching ourselves like my pictures back there. Catching it at 55 feet or whatever it might be intentionally trying to bring them in, but adding as much information as I can on that. So that's, that's one way I

think you're. We've been saving arms a little bit in this stuff but to me it's like we don't need to throw a ton like it could just be 10, pitches two, batters, whatever it is. There's a decent amount of Runners are going to be able to go. And to me, that's just way more meaningful and that's like, meaningful reps are a lot more important to me than just reps.

Because we had a lot of reps which holding doing packs at holding Runners and they weren't that meaningful because there was no real consequence and like it didn't, it didn't show itself in the game. My pictures were not, we're not moving more skillfully because of what we did in practice and that's like the biggest thing. Like I want to be able to say, I remember Sean Michigan saying this to me is like, I never could say it until little later in my career.

When I adopted some of these ideas is like I couldn't say I'm watching these players move. And it's because of what we did it was more in spite of what we did. But now he says, like, I know when I'm watching them performing game, this is because of the work we've been doing and the stuff. I've been the environments. I've been putting in and that's all.

I've thought about a lot about that and that's where I think meaningful wraps where it's layered and it acts and feels behaves more like the game even if it's just a slice of it is is a lot more important and I think what it's done for us is it's more important for the runners. It's a heck of a lot better for the catchers. We Can Am batters in there and now they get a hit with a guy running and that may change

their intentions. There's a man on First and how you may approach that at-bat, the guy just got a really good jump. Okay, now we're working that. You don't get that in batting practice, you don't you maybe don't even get that in your squad to be honest, because that's not your intentions but now you know, this is the situation. So I just I find a ton of value in it and that's where we will will kind of this is technically what we would be our Bullpen day tomorrow.

Like so we're missing, What would Be our traditional Bullpen day for this, but I think this this brings more value than a traditional Bullpen would for the majority of our guests. Yeah. I mean because to me it's like I would get guys up on the mound as much as I could, like I would get rid of flat ground work. You know, like it to me it just doesn't matter. It doesn't make like I get it,

you know. Like I understand why things are the way they are, at least I tried to write because in order to try to move it to something different, you need to understand why it's there in the first place.

Because when you suggest the new thing like you're going to get the push back or you're going to see people just default back to this old thing and if you don't understand why you're not going to understand how to move it towards the new thing, so because to me it's it's the whole limitation, right? Like You don't have certain resources. Like, that's why you do these things of like logistically. It's just easier to just put a guy down there.

You know, whether it's picture, you know, and to do flat ground, we only have so many Mounds like and it looks looks cleaner to like, it looks like you have. I everybody that aligned doing the flat ground, doing the same thing to looks, good really does. Well that's an organized practice. Well, that's the other element to of like well right? What's the whole purpose of when you do a flat ground? How do you judge whether or not it was good or not? It's based upon did you throw it

to the spots? Are you spotting up? And then you judge that as like okay like this will translate over to the game it's like Not really because I mean yes kind of right? Like there's an element of it that will translate a little bit, right? The element of like you had some level of body control and awareness but does it translate enough to write? You've shown the ability that you can, you can put the ball over the plate or put it to where you want.

Now it's question of, all right. If I put a battery in there and put it on fire back there, we can get the same things in. Are we going to see those same results? Because, right, this is where to me of having an Umpire back. There is Probably one of the most important things quite honestly, in my opinion. And the reason is is because as a pitcher whether or not, the guy calls it, a baller strike is going to dictate what I throw next.

Yep. Right. Like, if I am 02, I have different pitch options afforded to me than if I'm 20, it's just is how it is. Like I do, you know like or even 11. Like they're just you have different options based upon your current action capabilities available to you based upon On whether or not the guys calling those pitches balls are strikes also too. If like a guy swings like it just it changes so much and that's where it's just not like

oh did you hit your spot? And that's how you're judging things and that's why it's like if this is what you're spending the majority of your practice time doing you're just leaving so much on the table. And this is, this goes to like I really like this analogy that Tyler. Your be used all quite a bit, was talking about, you know, on the essence here. Of things. There's like this bridge, you know, this Gap that we, that the players had to Traverse from like what we did in the weight

room. So what, you know, they had to do in the game or even like what they had to do when it came to practice and when we hand them back off to the sport coaches of just like, hey, we did all this, you know, stuff in the weight room like squats, maybe some linear stuff, linear speed, or whatever and some cone drills, and I was like, all right, Johnny, you know, tapping on the but good luck, you know, you have to figure out how to get from here to there, you know?

And it's like that's that's basically to me what you're doing. If you're just only ever just spend all this time doing stuff in these as you referred to it dead ways but just it's it's you could call it dead or you could just call it lacking. Specifying information like your stripping out too much of the specifying information. There is some right? And this is this is the point that I was going to make before about like constraints.

And why I went on the whole constraints rant of like, we've always been using constraints. There's always information present, right? The ball is a piece of information, just understanding, right? Like, oh, okay, you don't have a hitter. Well, if you still have a ball like you still have some of the information, they're right that the player is actually interacting with, okay? So as long as you have, A ball. Yes, it gets more specifying as you get closer to the Implement.

You're using the same thing is goes true of like yes on flat ground. There is still some specifying information. You're still having to use the ground gravity stolen play, but you're missing the slope there.

Like again, you're just peeling off information, the more information you peel off the harder, the more you're having the more you're basically saying to the player and tap them on the button saying, hey, good luck, you know, trying to figure out how to get it to go from there to there. Instead of basically Making that transition between what you're doing with the player into the game as seamless as possible.

Like, I think that to me, Part of and I think we talked about or I talked about this on a different podcast episode of like the role of a coach like the the name as I understood it came from this idea of like the stagecoach or a coach, right? Like it transports. You from one place to the other. It helps you get from one one place where you are now to the place that you want to go. And so like, that's our job. As a coach, is to help the player seamlessly transition

from one place to the other. And instead the way that we often are doing it, currently is like You know, they come to us with the ticket to get from point A to point B. And really what we're doing is we're taking them from point A and taking them to point C. And then they're going to have to walk the rest of the way to get to point B. Like in that's that's where like I again like an ecological approach helps us to be, you know, wouldn't it be nice

instead of having to Get in the car, you know, to get to go to the airport park, have to walk to get onto the airplane, they get off the airplane, do that all again, if you just like, you know, they're playing just came in right to your door and you got on it. Like that's to me the idea of like what I'm trying to get at here of like what the ecological approach is trying to do is try to cut out more of that. You don't have to walk as far in between the places that you're

trying to get. And they'll like that transition to where you want to go. And what you want to do is going to be much more seamless, much more efficient. Yeah, and I think that's the more you interact with the information in the more you go. And I guess, I would say, explore explore the topics and it's for potential ways. You could use use. The, the framework you start seeing, how, how would actually, like just creating things that

act in field behave? Like the game would actually, I don't know, help you win the game like in. That's that's where like that. It starts like bridging that Gap. Instead of like doing all these things, I look absolutely nothing like the game and expecting it to show up in the game. Like it almost to me, it just becomes extremely logical. It's like when you actually sit down and think about it.

So like when you're actually watching a typical practice, it's like this is how it's always been, but like it's so far off from the game where it's like, you see the infield of routine and you're just doing like little little flips to each other back and forth and then you watch a hard hit ground ball in the hole. It's like that nut that that

didn't look like that at all. All on, be honest with you, like that difficulty level 41, like it's not even remotely close to, the guy didn't know is about to go on the whole like and the backhand little flip drill. You did like the start the game, the warm-up like you knew is coming so you didn't have to move and now you got to go stand up and somehow organize, a

thorough really fast. Because the guys on down the line to and it's just like, you start thinking through those things and just noticing those things. It's like there's a big gap between some of the stuff, Traditionally done and the actual game.

And the think that we actually think that because we do this that exact movement where we worked perfectly through the balls, just going to show up on that on that backhand play in the hole when we were standing there for 15 minutes since our picture just walked walk, the guy, there's a mountain, visit couple foul balls and now you're just literally out of know. You're thinking about that point, but it's nothing to do with the, the 14-foot juice got in a row, right?

So it's just like, I've just logically thought through a lot of that stuff. Laughing it just doesn't. It doesn't make sense. Like how big the Gap often is it? It's not not to say, we don't do some stuff like, Maps Van Gogh. Even like I thought about that, too. It's okay. You're doing a ton of reps, right? But one, you know, the fungus coming and I don't. And when I see guys, and I'm going on a different rant, maybe

I need to cut myself off. So, we're going for like three hours here, but like, a mass phone go, right? Like, you know, it's coming every single time and I don't know if like you get three balls in a row quickly, any typically, those are the quick Innings like three balls go. The shortstop shortstop gobbles them up. Throw them out every pretty much every single time. But then we standing around for 20 minutes and then has to go filled it in. Well, how do you put that

practice? I mean it's only other question but like those are, those are when it becomes the issue and becomes the error and like, how do you create slices of a game? I'm gonna I'm gonna cut myself off, so we're going to, I'm gonna bring us down different rabbit holes here, but let me know. I've been thinking about that. Same thing too, about mass mass, practice, or fungos or whatever. But I go back to if you give guys As the framework with exploration. Mass practice.

Just goes back to what you know, the damage that I drew before of like, right. You have a box where you're exploring and then now you're Drilling in your drilling into a place where you can explore a bunch of like you can do some micro exploration going on, it, it's just happening on a smaller scale and like there are certain things that are just harder to recreate. Like, how am I like, I have to

be very skilled. As a Fungo hitter, figure out how to hit a hardback spun ground Ball that's going to get you that weird hot and quite honestly though like because I am aware of this framework, I am intentional about trying to hit different types of ground balls to die. When I'm doing my mass fungos, like I am trying to place it different places and quite honestly. What's very interesting to me is that when I start to fatigue,

right? When I get to the end of my van Gogh session, it's like way worse and It's way worse than there in the fact that like there's an tractor inning like they start hitting the same crappy ground balls, two guys at the end, which kind of frustrates me, but at the same point, like, I don't mind some variation when I hit ground balls, and I make some mistakes, as long as it's like a different look, like, I'm just as happy, it was like, oh, all right, I

mix that in. I don't know how I did that, but that was great rap for him. I mean because there are certain like, for example our field, it has a lip. So there are times I'm intentionally trying to hit balls in different parts of the field just so I can get that lip. So they can get those get more used to how the power field works and operates with the fact that we have a lift there. And I think those things are good. And then to the other day, I was

with the third baseman. I was just trying to hit for a few reps. Like this is again, like the challenge Point element of, like, understanding the cognitive load of players of, I tried to smash a couple of hard balls and makes them like really hard Smashes in there. I should probably do that more with our middle. Infielders do but like those are Those are little things that that once you become aware of. This framework you stop trying to hit the perfect round ball when you're doing Mass.

Phone goes to your guys like that for me was was spraying. It also made it more interesting to me too when I'm sitting back there because it can get a little bit long and boring. I actually struggle more, when I'm hitting fly balls, to guys like that, for me is the hardest thing of like at a certain

point, this becomes too easy and so like I need to get better. at figuring out how to keep it fresh as far as like different types of fly balls because to my action capabilities as a coach deteriorate, The further along we get like I just need to condition myself more but anyways that's it. That's a different, a different story. But no I just I think that's a good place to land the plane though of there's a place for everything even with any economic even within an ecological approach.

I don't know about the Tea though, I'm going to I'm just going to come back to that. Like I remember you, I wanted to say something about that before, when you're talking about Pro guys Hitting off the tee and flips like unless they're doing some actual exploration there. When they're hitting off the tee and flips, which I don't think is what they're doing. I think they're trying to get back to a certain feel and pattern if they're trying to pattern something for

themselves. Yeah I think that that oftentimes that has a short term positive affect and probably if they take a bazillion reps like this is why Mike Trout? I think does well because he only takes like 10 swings, right? He gets what he wants to feel he's done. Like I I think most guys that's just, you know, they want to work really hard.

Joey Votto had to learn that. At the Hard Way like he would just when you have a bad game, you just get back in there and just take a bazillion hacks off the tee or whatever it was trying to feel and pattern that just muscle memory it in there. It's just not how the body works. It's not how we learn. So that's that's where I'd say like there is a place for everything but I'm just not sure. There's not a big place in my heart. No, I'm just going to say.

I don't think there's a big place of it. Is there's no place for the tea, but I don't think there's like if there is a spot for the tea with an ecological approach has a small spot. Same thing with red lips, it's for when your son placed evil, which I don't think your son should like if you can just skip it but like, degree 0 degree. I'm just saying that. If you like, I'm not going to make an absolute statement because I know, you know, friend

of the show. Caleb He hates it when you get really dogmatic and I and I think that's a fair criticism and that's one of the criticisms that a lot of people have any quadruple approaches that it sounds very dogmatic like they're absolute statements. You should never use the tea Bubble Up. Okay.

All right fine. Well can see that and say that like there's a small place for the tea and we've used the T at the college that I'm at and I try to make it more ecological and you should like if you're going to use the T use it in the most ecological way you can. And it also say They don't spend a ton of time there if the if you're spending if you look at if you touch, if you put and you tally up the amount of time that you spend on that tea and it happens to become a big

percentage of your time. When you total it up, across all the days that you use it, I think you need to make some adjustments to it because I think you're you're you're leaving you're doing that at the expense of other things that get you a higher return on investment.

And that's that's just what I would say is that like again There's, there's a place for everything within the ecological approach and it what the ecological approach does is it helps you to make better use of your time and to help prioritize your time and help you to know how and when, you know, and to be able to answer those questions of like, for example, like an old strength and conditioning question how strong a strong enough? Like there's a there's an answer

to that question. When you use an ecological approach, like, when should I transition to the next thing? I think the ecological approach helps you to think. Think in such a way that helps you determine when you should make those transitions? For sure, for sure. We're Travis probably land the plane on that because I was about to go into something else, but all right. I said yeah, probably should probably should sleep at some point.