[SPEAKER_00]: I believe that the only way we can harvest the learning and the growth [SPEAKER_00]: and find those seeds that can enable us to grow is by extending some grace inwards. [SPEAKER_00]: It's by forgiving ourselves for being the unfinished drops of who we're on the way to becoming. [SPEAKER_03]: This is a girl from a small, Aussie dairy farm. [SPEAKER_03]: The daughter of a nearly illiterate farmer become a globally recognized expert on courage, who advises NASA and appears on CNN.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's Dr. Magi Royale. [SPEAKER_03]: In our conversation, we get real about why [SPEAKER_03]: comfort zone is killing our potential. [SPEAKER_03]: How to silence the negative voice in our head and why faith over fear is an intentional game plan for our life, not just the tattoo. [SPEAKER_03]: This is one of the most important conversations we've ever had on the podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: You are not gonna wanna miss this one. [SPEAKER_03]: Let's dig in. [SPEAKER_03]: This is the way.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. [SPEAKER_03]: And I appreciate you, I have twice. [SPEAKER_03]: So the audience knows I have twice messed this up. [SPEAKER_03]: Once I had an issue with my kids in the second time, we were literally on the call in all my electronics, just blew up, because I just created this brand new studio that we are recording in, at least I'm recording in, right now. [SPEAKER_03]: So Margie, I appreciate you so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate you putting up with all my stuff and I am so excited to chat today. [SPEAKER_00]: started to talk to you too and I'm going to start by just saying I'm my pronunciation of my name is unique for Americans. [SPEAKER_00]: It is Maggie with a haji. [SPEAKER_00]: I think Margarita. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'm going to try my best Margie, Margie. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's it. [SPEAKER_03]: Yep, short from on this tremendous, tremendous.
[SPEAKER_03]: I apologize for not having that dialed before we went live. [SPEAKER_03]: But that being said, I always excuse because I have this very bland Irish tongue, which literally has zero flavor in it at all. [SPEAKER_03]: So unless it's like as base like English, American English is possible, I cannot get pronunciations, right? [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, just the way that I was born.
[SPEAKER_03]: But however, [SPEAKER_03]: getting into what I want to talk about, so much of your work is based on the idea of courage. [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, right on your site, you have this quote, it's pulled out, it's in quotes, it's boxed, growth and comfort can't ride the same horse. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think logically, that makes a tremendous amount of sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think everyone would just go, yeah, yeah, of course, you know, however, it's not the way most people operate in practice. [SPEAKER_03]: Why do you think so many of us can [SPEAKER_03]: understand, believe that growth comes from pushing ourselves, going outside, et cetera, yet we just operate in this nice, comfy, consistent spot for most of our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because our bodies biologically, in neurologically, we are so wired for safety, for certainty, [SPEAKER_00]: familiarity. [SPEAKER_00]: And so even though intellectually we hear an idea, we hear that, you know, quote, growth and comfort can't ride the same horse and we go, yeah, yeah, good. [SPEAKER_00]: When we then go to do it, we go, oh, no way. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like our brains have pulled it on the, pulling the reins and go, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just recognizing that, you know, overcoming our own instinct for self-protection, for certainty, for shoring up the status quo, is just so programmed into us that there's a big gap between what we know we should do and what we actually do. [SPEAKER_00]: Feel creates that gap. [SPEAKER_00]: Instinct to play it, save creates that gap.
[SPEAKER_00]: And hence, you know, what the work that I do, it takes courage, cultivating our capacity to take action, even though we're afraid and there's a risk, is so crucial. [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think a lot of your focus on courage comes from the fact that you were raised on a farm? [SPEAKER_00]: Great question, great question. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it all comes from being raised in a farm but clearly that's one aspect of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it also comes from being raised in an environment where I didn't have many role models who were people to look to who were empowered. [SPEAKER_00]: uh, where there was even culturally in Australia, there's something anyone who's from Australia listening to this will know the tall poppy syndrome. [SPEAKER_00]: There's this cultural norm.
[SPEAKER_00]: that celebrate self-deprecation and is just out to get anyone who seeks to put themselves out there and be too big, to be a tall puppy, a puppy flower that could get risk getting cut down. [SPEAKER_00]: And so humility is praised, anything that could remotely sniff of [SPEAKER_00]: trying to get too far above your rank, you know, being ambitious, et cetera, is really socially risky.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I think for me, having the courage, just something about to practice, defying the doubts and that little voice in my head that said, who do you think you are? [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, my dad milk cows for 50 years, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, largely illiterate dropped out of school at 16. [SPEAKER_00]: So this environment was about really celebrating humility and has self-deprecation and art form.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think for me, my own personal journey of having to practice courage, but then in life with all of the stuff that life brought my way, just recognizing that, you know, if life was perfect, it wouldn't be and that's so often we have to [SPEAKER_00]: really walk this path of what I would even call faith over fear. [SPEAKER_00]: And so my whole journey, I think, has been one that's continually pointing me back to courage in different forms. [SPEAKER_03]: Love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually have faith over fear, tattoo to my wrist right here. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's my daily reminder, you know, every day when I take my shower, just getting changed, you know, you look down, I can't miss it. [SPEAKER_03]: It's on my wrist. [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I've dealt with a lot of my life. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the voice of my head is very negative, very negative. [SPEAKER_03]: And I know that that's not me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Red, the untethered soul, spent a lot of time surging that. [SPEAKER_03]: But the conversation that is happening in my head, like he's a dick, like he's not, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_03]: He wants to just tear down and pull down. [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I think, [SPEAKER_03]: It's very difficult for a lot of people to separate that voice from maybe who they actually are.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you believe that you're your spirit and not necessarily that voice, et cetera, which I do. [SPEAKER_03]: How do we start to frame ourselves through a filter of courage versus, and we're gonna make the assumption that this thought experiment, the person is unhappy with the course of their life or where they find themselves in this moment. [SPEAKER_03]: So they're not content. [SPEAKER_04]: They are, they are the opposite of content.
[SPEAKER_03]: How do they start to frame courage in their life? [SPEAKER_03]: How do they start to filter their decisions and their thought processes? [SPEAKER_03]: through courage to make those changes, because we just, we get stuck. [SPEAKER_03]: So many of my friends who will bitch at me at a little league game, or a basketball game, you know, you're just chatting all this, and yeah, my wife doesn't this, and my boss doesn't this, and man, I always thought I'd be here, whatever, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: They're just stuck. [SPEAKER_00]: How do we start to break free of that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_00]: one is just cultivating enough awareness to see that hey I'm stuck and that's a level of maturity our own evolution right and not everyone matures at the same pace and some people never fully mature I mean we know that because we meet [SPEAKER_00]: 70, 60-year-old, 70-year-olds, 80-year-olds who are stuck and sometimes miserable and very complicit in everything they complain about.
[SPEAKER_00]: So recognizing that we aren't responsible for the families we grew up in, for the environment that we found ourselves in, we aren't not responsible for that, but we are responsible as adults. [SPEAKER_00]: with how we choose to live our lives, what we focus on, even our own, you know, development that inward journey. [SPEAKER_00]: You see that that hero's journey. [SPEAKER_00]: And not everyone chooses to take that journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that really that inward journey and I know you're on it. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is part of your journey and where [SPEAKER_00]: And psychology, there's a rule that only when the pain of staying where we are exceeds the pain of what it would take to grow. [SPEAKER_00]: Do we sometimes start that journey?
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I don't know if you know anything much about the 12-step programs and AA, but it's like, you know, does the elevator have to get to the bottom floor? [SPEAKER_00]: You have to lose your family, your business, your reputation, your whole life before you go. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I need to have a look at myself, or just to go, you know what? [SPEAKER_00]: What is it that's not working? [SPEAKER_00]: Where am I cut off?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where am I certainly not fully able to feel joy and contentment and connection with people? [SPEAKER_00]: And where am I complicit? [SPEAKER_00]: Not just the victim of my circumstance, but actually, [SPEAKER_00]: part of the creator of some of these circumstances, whether it's kids, wife, husband, business, team members, finding no prosperity and health, a well-being, our own bodies, which are a reflection of what we think and how we feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, everyone is on their own journey with that and there's part of what I love to help people just hold that mirror up [SPEAKER_00]: years ago, Ryan, I lived in Papua New Guinea in my 20s, not in the 1920s, I'm not that old. [SPEAKER_00]: In my, in my 20s, in the 90s, I lived in Papua New Guinea for a couple years and I was working in marketing, I found myself [SPEAKER_00]: coming to a really confronting and eating disorder that I'd had through my teens.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had to believe me out. [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that I was sort of over it, but it read up again in this environment. [SPEAKER_00]: It was the most dangerous country outside of war zone at the time. [SPEAKER_00]: And suddenly I was like, what the frick, I thought I'd sort of dealt with this and bam, my bear, I was in this, what was a self-destructive cycle that I hated being in. [SPEAKER_00]: I had so much shame on it. [SPEAKER_00]: with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to stop it, but my willpower wasn't enough. [SPEAKER_00]: I just kept finding myself in this cycle, and I was pretty high functioning, so no one knew it was not obvious at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also at the same time found myself continually being the confidant of super smart people, like the top lawyer with the top law firm from Australia there, and a top diplomatically in a diplomatic career, and that we're confiding with me there, struggles, and I was like, how come these smart intellectually high horsepower people are doing things that are hurting themselves? [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sabotaging themselves, and I'm doing it too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that really was the start of me, a really beautiful, profound, difficult, painful journey of just why is it that we humans who have so much [SPEAKER_00]: intellectual capacity will do things that hurt us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for those who are listening, I'm sure they're smart, I'm sure they're capable, I'm sure they've got lots of strength and skills and they've done lots of awesome things and yet my guess is they sometimes a stuck in these patterns of thought behavior that sabotage themselves and they don't lead to [SPEAKER_00]: greater health, greater happiness, richer relationships.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's just getting really present to our lives and being able to take a really hard look in the mirror and go, what is it about what I'm doing and how I'm thinking that's actually creating suffering in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think of suffering as any time we're not really connected to sense of peace and purpose, [SPEAKER_00]: and optimism, faith, you know, in ourselves, if not in a higher power, God, whatever, whoever it is that you construct that for yourself, therein lays some rich rich fertile ground for self-discovery. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had, it's funny, I've done a tremendous amount of work on myself and this, [SPEAKER_03]: I've always had this yearning, and maybe the core of why I do this podcast is just... [SPEAKER_03]: I've always wanted to figure out how good I can be.
[SPEAKER_03]: you know I don't know that's like my probably my intrinsic motivation is like how good can i be how can i can i stay fit in my forza i'm gonna be forty five this year can i you know can i make lots of money or enough to be you know uh... will consider uh... will consider uh... standard american wealth the nest the lack of necessity to think about everything you spend money on right so not not you know doesn't mean you're uh... multi-millionaire just means when you when you go out to the state house you don't have to worry about appetizers in a second
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, you know, can you, you know, write a bestselling book? [SPEAKER_03]: Can you do these it? [SPEAKER_03]: So how good can you be, okay? [SPEAKER_03]: And, and I've done a lot of work. [SPEAKER_03]: I've had a counselor, read, oh, okay. [SPEAKER_03]: And then two years ago, I had a fairly bad, [SPEAKER_03]: business experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: Founded a company, grew the company, sold the company, and then the company that bought that company, trashed it, destroyed it, I watched my baby get murdered in front of my eyes, and then all of a sudden it was over. [SPEAKER_03]: And this thing that I had attached my identity to and had plans to operate, run, grow for time, you know, important, infinite. [SPEAKER_03]: All the sudden was gone, and I had no idea who I was anymore. [SPEAKER_03]: All of my bad behaviors.
[SPEAKER_03]: All of them came raging back all at once, like the dam, like someone just opened the floodgates, and it was staying up to a death scrolling, having a drink every night. [SPEAKER_03]: I started, I hadn't smoked pot in 25 years. [SPEAKER_03]: I started, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_03]: Like all the sudden, it was just like this, this shame and debt, and here's my point.
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I thought to what you were saying that like I had beat that behavior like in my mind I was like any of those negative characteristics those those those those vices those those hooks You're right you could say that the enemy or you know, I don't necessarily say the devil But like you know have gotten gotten their hooks.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought I had pulled those out And one moment that I wasn't prepared for and they came rushing back and it was such [SPEAKER_03]: I tend not to dwell on things for too long. [SPEAKER_03]: I use try to use them as data points. [SPEAKER_03]: And it was like this, if this was like a plot chart, this would be like an enormous splash in red dot, like something happened here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I guess my question for you is, almost coming back to the beginning, but slightly reframed again, is like, [SPEAKER_03]: I think this happens to a lot of people. [SPEAKER_03]: I've met and talked, especially through this podcast, a lot of people who you feel like you overcome something and still there. [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess my question is, do you believe that we ever truly get rid of these behaviors?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or do we have to accept that these are kind of core pieces of who we are and our goal becomes the daily management of staying ahead of them or beating them? [SPEAKER_03]: Does that question make sense? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're not, you're not infelable. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not infelable. [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't believe any of us ever arrive. [SPEAKER_00]: We are essentially human becoming's more than we are human beings. [SPEAKER_00]: And we're all on a journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of a sudden, you found yourself just tanking back regressing to these really negative self-destructive thought patterns. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all of those stories that you would have had as a kid that maybe you worked through in therapy, and they were flooded back, you know, you were just pulled completely back upstream.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I really believe the mastery of our lives is not about eradicating every insecurity and every shadow that exists within us, because I think they're always gonna be there, but there is the mastery of them. [SPEAKER_00]: There's a noticing. [SPEAKER_00]: My seven-year-old self has just read its head. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that hurt little girl, that wounded boy who was never good enough for his dad. [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever it is, it comes back to the four.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think just being able to notice that, like that's part of the growth journey, like, aha, there's that little insecure girl again. [SPEAKER_00]: And so my guess is that's what got triggered massively for you in that. [SPEAKER_00]: Your whole identity was just shattered. [SPEAKER_00]: And yet, you know, it's through the cracks where the light gets in, right? [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the bigger the breakdown, the greater the potential for breakthrough to another level.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yes, I don't think we ever get rid of it. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm really curious to know, Ryan, what's been the breakthrough? [SPEAKER_00]: What's been the new blossoming and growth for you on the other side of that?
[SPEAKER_03]: has been the biggest one like it was very humbling right because up until that point I felt like I had I don't want to say master my mind because that's a little too far but like that I had built the habits mechanisms thought patterns to to stay on the path that I desire right I thought that I had done all that work and that they were well-tried and well-walked and
[SPEAKER_03]: It was like, it, and again, this was, I guess you could also say this was a big moment, but I thought I was more prepared and, and I'm looking back in it, I don't know that I could have done anything different, I think this is, I also was, if I was self-evaluating felt, I was [SPEAKER_03]: I did recalibrate quicker than I would have in the past.
[SPEAKER_03]: So even though I kind of spun off the planet for a second, I was able to kind of bring myself back in faster than I went in the past. [SPEAKER_03]: So I tried to give myself some grace there. [SPEAKER_03]: And then that's where the idea came from of like, dude, just like, don't always, I can be kind of hard on myself, for a very demanding, and I just said like, you know, [SPEAKER_03]: This is not like a circuit board that you can wire.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you, you have this neural network, you have all these feelings, and then if we get into the spiritual side, you know, there's so much to being a human, like just pump the brakes a little, grace upon grace, like give yourself some space, and I think what that's allowed me to do is be more self-aware,
[SPEAKER_03]: because instead of wearing a uniform of like hard charging, business guy, you've got a podcast and you speak, you know, it was more like, okay, I'm a human being, you're good at, you're some stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not so good at and you know, try to operate more in reality if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, you know what, you've said a few things and grace, I love the word grace, and in the courage gap, the final, the chapter [SPEAKER_00]: You know, either you're going to try something in fail or you're going to fail to try, but either way, life's going to continually have us tripping up. [SPEAKER_00]: And so what's the gold in that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I believe that the only way we can harvest the learning and the growth [SPEAKER_00]: and find those seeds that can enable us to grow is by extending some grace inwards. [SPEAKER_00]: It's by forgiving ourselves for being the unfinished drafts of who we're on the way to becoming. [SPEAKER_00]: And for you in that moment, it's like, heck, I thought I was ahead of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think one of the key ways, particularly those of us, who are, you know, I'm in the business of personal professional development. [SPEAKER_00]: And I know myself, and I've had plenty of moments. [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't even know where to start the list. [SPEAKER_00]: probably about 20 minutes ago. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, where I am not as together as I wanna be, where I, you know, all for all this stuff that I do, I'm like, geez, I dropped the ball again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't as loving as I wanted to be. [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't as kind, I wasn't as patient, I wasn't as generous, I wasn't as, you know, you name it. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think to just forgive ourselves because so much suffering comes from thinking we should be further along than we are. [SPEAKER_00]: You're in your mid 40s. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a decade old.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, heck, I look at my journal for when I was 25 because I've always been a journal or in self-reflective along to for a long time. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, can I feel like I've made a lot of progress? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, heck, I'm still here. [SPEAKER_00]: But actually, I mean, what if, what if? [SPEAKER_00]: that is like, well, your experience, they're what if that was actually so beautifully, divinely orchestrated for your growth?
[SPEAKER_00]: What if that was really to put you on your knees? [SPEAKER_00]: To go, you know what? [SPEAKER_00]: You'll get in a little head of yourself, you know, and I think looking at this even through a faith lens, and I'm a Christian, and as a wonderful man, called by the Richard Roy, he talks about pray for daily humilitys. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, just to remember, you have not got it all together. [SPEAKER_00]: You're never going to have it all together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so just to extend that grace inwards and I think of grace like water, it always flows to the lowest part, but it always lifts us higher. [SPEAKER_00]: And more we can extend that grace into ourselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: One allows us to pick ourselves up, but it also allows us to extend more to others [SPEAKER_00]: everyone around us is fighting those internal battles is falling short, and I think it enables us to actually just forge such a deeper level of connection with all the other humans that are on this wild, wondrous, mysterious journey too.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I completely agree with so much of you said one of the pieces that I'd like to pull out is this idea of expectations because I think so much of my own, so much of my own hate to use [SPEAKER_03]: places where I've tripped up have been almost always when my ego allowed [SPEAKER_03]: my expectations and maybe even my mental thought to extend beyond where we are in this moment, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Instead of just living in reality right here, completely connected to you in this moment, right? [SPEAKER_03]: I've done as much prep as I'm going to do before it starts, like I could have done more, I could have done it right. [SPEAKER_03]: But I just, so if I get into this moment, I'm like, oh my god, I wish I had prepped even more. [SPEAKER_03]: I wish I had read every word of the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: right like I didn't do that like I have to operate in this moment and I could feel pain regret whatever I'm using this as a microcosm but like you know I could I could sit and instead of sitting in this moment and being completely with you I could be thinking about all these things I wish I had done or things I have to do after the call I mean there's so many or I could just sit here in the and one of the things that it really taught me was
[SPEAKER_03]: to detach from the outcome and expectations and to try to live as much as I possibly can in reality in the present.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this idea of living in reality is kind of where I would like to take this to our current world and how cultivating courage and calm and grace with [SPEAKER_03]: the mailstrom of negativity that we have to deal with on a day to day basis from whatever social media or news outlet or water cooler friend that we bump into on a day to day basis right it's it almost feels like we're constantly living with like this
[SPEAKER_03]: fairly high baseline amount of fear and anxiety and stress whether we even realize it or not. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's very difficult for a lot of people because it almost seems like it's manifest in all of us a little different. [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe we become very snippy with our spouse or our kids, or we become detached and distracted at work, or we become just raging hierarchical dictator, over the people that we manage.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not even those situations, it's like this baseline stress because of all the crap that we're hit with. [SPEAKER_03]: How do we sort through all this? [SPEAKER_03]: Like, how do we operate? [SPEAKER_03]: How do we bring that stress and anxiety level down? [SPEAKER_03]: So we can actually move forward in our lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think just take an ownership for what we consume and let in, and you know social media, you mentioned it, people might be saying this video on social media, but I would say we have to be so disciplined and setting up Godrail stand God on the boundaries of what you let in.
[SPEAKER_00]: because social media is such a source of negativity, of toxic information, of fear and anxiety, and the algorithms are designed to stoke insecurity, to stoke anxiety, to keep us scrolling, to have us comparing our lot with everybody else's. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I think in a world where we do live so much about time on our devices, sitting there going into the doom scrolling, [SPEAKER_00]: about what we're letting in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, 20 years ago, we didn't know what was happening on 100 years ago. [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't know what was happening in a country, you know, 2000 miles away. [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're just getting pummeled with everything all of the time, knowing that it's also pushing us further into echo chambers of self protection. [SPEAKER_00]: where we have this toxic sense of affinity with all the other people that agree with us. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because we all hate them.
[SPEAKER_00]: That common enemy intimacy, which gives us a sense of belonging, false belonging, but still a sense of belonging. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I see so many people who were just pulled into those polarized corners. [SPEAKER_00]: In ways that aren't serving them, that shut down critical thinking, and that actually stoke anxiety, [SPEAKER_00]: and have it to the point that they can't even see the woods for the trees.
[SPEAKER_00]: So starting with taking ownership of what are we feeding ourselves? [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously not just the food you eat, but the media you consume, the people that you hang out with, the conversations you let in, and being so intentional about making sure that we are spending way more time
[SPEAKER_00]: in the presence of information, people conversations that is aligning with who we want to be, that is feeding us what is it that speaks into the deepest part of us, into that spiritual aspect of who we are, that I walk away from that conversation a little more connected to the goodness within me and the good that I want to do and the good that I can do and not all of that toxic waste dump that's all around us. [SPEAKER_03]: I struggle with this one because I'm of two minds.
[SPEAKER_03]: One, I know that I am happier, more at peace, commerce, more focused when I stay away from all this stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: I know that, for a fact, I can, I used to wear a hoop. [SPEAKER_03]: I could tell you literally from my heart rate, from how I sleep, I could tell you, 100% the days that I stay away from social for the most part, stay away from my phone, stay away from politics or news, whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: At the same time, [SPEAKER_03]: There are insane ideas propagating through our society that I think for the most part are able to propagate because people are not educated on these topics. [SPEAKER_03]: They aren't spending time researching and understanding and exposing themselves to different ideas, right? [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, take the fact that we have a communist as our mayor of New York City. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's absolutely bananas.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he's literally running the manifesto. [SPEAKER_03]: He uses the words. [SPEAKER_03]: There's generations that haven't been exposed to what communism is, what it does, how it sounds, what the outcomes are because they're so kind of playcated by video games and pornography and celebrity gossip and that they then hear from their favorite influencer that, you know, this person just wants to give you free stuff and that's a good thing and now we're allowing
[SPEAKER_03]: I struggle because I don't know how to find the balance between being properly educated on the things that impact our lives. [SPEAKER_03]: Like the people of New York City's lives are going to be worse over the next four years because of Zorhan Mondami. [SPEAKER_03]: Like the fact that they elected this man to be their mayor, their lives are going to be worse. [SPEAKER_03]: And what they're going to do is they're going to blame everyone else.
[SPEAKER_03]: But the vast majority of them voted for him, and I don't know how to find that balance. [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe personally or as a siding to take that whatever you want or just share your experience, but I do struggle with this idea, because there are very toxic ideas spreading. [SPEAKER_03]: However, if you just put your head in the sand, you're going to feel better. [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know where that balance is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, putting a head in the sense might make us feel better. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not talking about putting a head in the in the sense. [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was probably. [SPEAKER_03]: I was. [SPEAKER_00]: I think. [SPEAKER_00]: Democracy isn't just to write.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a responsibility and we have, I believe, really a strong responsibility to be engaged in the politics of our time in a way that is congruent with our values, but in a way that is pointing us toward that is elevating us to higher ground that's not feeding the wolves. [SPEAKER_00]: to your point on how do we find that balance because, you know, you talk about these ideas, there's ideas that are destructive, that are circulating.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this isn't about sticking our head in the sand or like, you know, I'm going to get rid of all all all all connection to the world, not at all. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's about being as I said, you know, I think of the word intentionality. [SPEAKER_00]: You can know what's going on and you can stay abreast of the issues without sitting there scrolling Instagram for an hour and a half a night.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there are sources of information that can help us think critically and from different lenses. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think being really selective about that, maybe it's a few journalists that you follow, maybe it's a couple of specific podcasts that you listen to, but that you're that's giving you not just a one particular way of it. [SPEAKER_00]: And recognizing the psychology shows that [SPEAKER_00]: certainty of our rightness makes us feel good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it isn't based on the credibility of the sources that feed that sense of certainty. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I get all my stuff off TikTok because someone said, you know, I don't know, the earth is flat and that's how it is or come in isn't the way to save the world. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, people once they get in that it makes them feel good.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we have to actively look at what's something else that might be contradictory to that. [SPEAKER_00]: And read, just read and don't just watch 60-second TikTok reels. [SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't agree with you. [SPEAKER_03]: I love the fact that you used the word intentionality. [SPEAKER_03]: It's actually one of my, I do the three-word exercise every year, three words that I want to kind of be my focus points.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was one of, it's actually been a word for me for the last three years that I tried to be intentional about the things that I do, [SPEAKER_03]: as much as possible, I think it would be way to go to think that we could actually shape the universe the universe doesn't give us shit about us, but to be intentional about how we show up in that space and about how we act, I love that. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think, you know, it's funny, like you bring up like the Earth is flat, okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: The fact that there are human beings that breathe air today, that could possibly rationalize the fact that the Earth is flat, [SPEAKER_03]: speaks to the like insanity of groups because and I actually I was actually listening to a wonderful podcast on this topic It's it's called the deep end I think the guy's name is Taylor Welch and he had this guy Tim Alboreno on I don't know if you're familiar with him. [SPEAKER_03]: No, he is He calls himself a researcher.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's probably the best way, but he's into ancient civilizations He does a lot of work with the Incas and the Mayas and he goes to these cities. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, whatever [SPEAKER_03]: and but that work tends to bring you into some of these more more we'll call them fringe idea communities because when you're talking about some of the theories around some of these cities how they were built, et cetera. [SPEAKER_03]: It just puts you in that space.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: So they're having this conversation about [SPEAKER_03]: a flat earth. [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things he said that I thought was particularly interesting was if you get, and he was adamantly, you know, he was not advocating for flatter. [SPEAKER_03]: He was very adamantly making the case. [SPEAKER_00]: That wouldn't be a credibility buildup. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, that this was insane. [SPEAKER_03]: But I thought he made a good point.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to spend too much on flatter, but I did think he made a good point, which was if you get any of these individuals on their own. [SPEAKER_03]: Within minutes, you can almost completely discredit the points that they make. [SPEAKER_03]: They will kind of look at you, they'll shake their head and say, yeah, you're probably right.
[SPEAKER_03]: However, in a group, they will pound their fist and scream their Earth is flat and there are, you know, ice walls and circling the disc that we live on and like, and you think to yourself like, [SPEAKER_03]: How do I protect myself? [SPEAKER_03]: I guess this is my question. [SPEAKER_03]: How do I protect myself from getting caught in group think, where I'm just attaching to a group, but I'm not really researching it.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just like, well, I know this guy or I like this girl or I follow this person and they're saying this thing. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not even gonna look into it. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just gonna grab onto it and make it part of my identity. [SPEAKER_03]: How do we stay [SPEAKER_03]: as much as possible a unique kind of independent thinking person because that seems like the only way to wade through all this craziness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it starts with being secure enough in ourselves that our desire [SPEAKER_00]: And so, that requires a lot of work. [SPEAKER_00]: How do we belong to ourselves? [SPEAKER_00]: How does that really trump my desire to belong to some group? [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that the forces who desire to be part of something is deep inherent in our wiring too.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know from research that the thought of being cast out of a group is threatening to us as the threat of losing our life. [SPEAKER_00]: because that's how it was 60,000 years ago. [SPEAKER_00]: And so the idea that my in-group might say, Maggie, you don't belong to us, because you're not lining up with what we believe. [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's so like a brain process, is it?
[SPEAKER_00]: like I'm being cast out into the wilderness without any water into the sign I did without any water in the middle of summer. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like this is death to me. [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's that requires just getting really anchored in who we want to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I and I do think I think that faith, and I know that that's not why we came on to speak about this today, but I [SPEAKER_00]: I think that being connected to ourselves at the deepest spiritual level, to that essence, who am I?
[SPEAKER_00]: Who am I, is more than my title, my status, my, you know, what, what events I get invited to, you know, who I hang out with, my social media, follow count, etc. [SPEAKER_00]: When we can be kind of anchored at a core level in ourselves, it actually emboldens us. [SPEAKER_00]: to think critically in those moments when a part of us would really rather shut down our critical thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of people right now have shut down they don't want to think critically. [SPEAKER_00]: Because that means risking everything that gives them a sense of safety, my group. [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, we witnessed it. [SPEAKER_00]: I started the other night at the Grammys and I forgotten her name, but she got up and made a statement about Billie Eilish. [SPEAKER_00]: Billie Eilish, we're all on.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all on stolen land, you know, and so how can we, you know, say that can you have illegal immigrant, how can you have illegal, goes when you are living on stolen land, yeah, and I'm like, okay, let's just play through that logic here, like just anyone play through that logic. [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, maybe you could just move over into my house and tell me to get out tomorrow I'm because, you know, I'm on stolen land, so how can you be stealing?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, it just doesn't make sense and yet everyone stood up and applauded and what have you, because every no one wanted to be the one that didn't stand in applause. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm not saying everyone stood, but a lot stood. [SPEAKER_00]: Which just speaks to the cowardice that lives within every one of us. [SPEAKER_03]: This is a living in a $14 million mansion, by the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's her hypocrisy, but there's also the cowardice that lives inside every one of us that everyone who stood up to applause that when I'm sure a lot of those people taken individually would go, that doesn't make sense, that just doesn't make sense. [SPEAKER_03]: One of them was the Supreme Court Justice for the United States. [SPEAKER_03]: Right, I didn't even brown. [SPEAKER_03]: Contani Brown was in the second row, clapping and laughing when she said that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't even remember that. [SPEAKER_03]: These are supposed to be the seven, what they're seven Supreme Court justice, supposed to be the seven most rational humans in the country, right? [SPEAKER_03]: When you think about it, these are supposed to be the individuals that can look at [SPEAKER_03]: Man, we know that that's not 100% the way it works. [SPEAKER_00]: They watch more of the Grammys than I did because I didn't even realize that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I saw as a snippet on my social and I was like, oh my gosh. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, but to your point, how coming back to your question, because that's a really important question. [SPEAKER_00]: How do we make sure we don't get pulled into that? [SPEAKER_00]: And I think just recognizing we are all vulnerable at all times to being pulled into that. [SPEAKER_00]: all of us vulnerable at all times. [SPEAKER_00]: So we have to stand God.
[SPEAKER_00]: We really have to stand God. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why creating a little space for ourselves to stop and just notice how we're noticing and noticing how we're engaging and what we're doing and really reconnect with what is really true for me.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now you said that you journal, do you think I think [SPEAKER_03]: I also have this theory that I'm a huge journalist as well and to be honest, every time I've had the darkest moment, I've had a dark moment in my adult life, journaling has been the tool that has brought me out of that dark moment without journaling.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would not have gotten through even with counseling, even with reading, meditation, whatever I'm not a big meditator, but journaling has been the tool to get me out. [SPEAKER_03]: It's mostly like, there's a lot of chaos in all of our brains. [SPEAKER_03]: And it allows you, like, the physical motion. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't believe in, I don't, like, digital journaling, and written with an actual physical device that physically puts, you know, color on a page.
[SPEAKER_03]: It forces you to, [SPEAKER_03]: to articulate what's actually going on in your brain. [SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of different ways to do it. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not a journaling master, so I have literally no guidance on the best way to do that. [SPEAKER_04]: But here's my question. [SPEAKER_02]: How much do you think is cowardice and how much do you think [SPEAKER_03]: I don't believe most people actually understand what they believe.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think most people have spent enough time actually thinking about who they are, what they believe, what their core values are. [SPEAKER_03]: Now you don't find this as much in Jews and Christians because I think when you have connected, truly connected, genuinely connected and whatever way that works for you with a higher power, you are guided in a way that can help. [SPEAKER_03]: doesn't solve all issues.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know plenty of Christians that are completely messed up, but but it is, it does give you some guiderails, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And to think, to think deeper about topics, but taking this spiritual piece out, I honestly believe most people just don't know what they believe they don't have a hard core of values.
[SPEAKER_03]: I could be wrong, that's my belief, and my question is when you see people, you see this woman living in a $14 million mansion, who has reaped all the rewards of this amazing country, and everything that it could possibly provide to someone who's talented, which I thought a big fan of her music, but she's talented. [SPEAKER_03]: You can't deny that. [SPEAKER_03]: She's been successful.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can say something so completely idiotic and stupid, contradictory and inaccurate, [SPEAKER_03]: What is the ratio of cowardice? [SPEAKER_03]: To I just don't have a value structure. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have a course that I believe and I'm willing to go along with whatever sounds best in the moment. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think we are some of us more so perhaps on the spectrum than now that's prone to ward laziness. [SPEAKER_00]: We are, as Daniel kind of and said, cognitive mises.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if there's an easy thing, if we can avoid the cognitive, [SPEAKER_00]: horse power required to think deeply, and I can't remember who else it said, but all someone who's, I think, passed, you know, all the words, world's problems have been gone, we wouldn't have the problems if we could all just sit in a room quietly and think, and I've just butchered that totally, but my point being that I think we are, we tend to be lazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So tell me what you believe, Uncle, I'll just buy into that, you know, and I know I was raised really a strong Roman Catholic church and as I became a teenager million to my late teens. [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, but that doesn't make sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: That just did not just, and I and I found myself in this rebellion against my parents who were just, [SPEAKER_00]: didn't question it and I did question it and and that was part of my journey was and I think actually to be mature in our spiritual faith by the way we have to have gone through a hard questioning if not that men ask at some point going I'm I'm none of this is holding up for me and then sometimes we come full circle but to your point
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people don't know what they say. [SPEAKER_00]: So they borrow beliefs. [SPEAKER_00]: Let me just take your beliefs. [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what, when someone like Billie Eilish with that fame and platform, you know, there's a bunch of teens and 20-year-olds looking who go, oh, I'm just gonna borrow that belief. [SPEAKER_00]: And they never think it through. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like when I was deep on the police.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had a daughter who was at a very liberal college at that time. [SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, do you find the, I'm like, Madeline, let's think about this. [SPEAKER_00]: think about this for two seconds. [SPEAKER_00]: What does that make sense? [SPEAKER_00]: Cause, well, well, like, okay, let's play this through. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's sort of forced her to. [SPEAKER_00]: But what if I hadn't forced her to?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause everyone else is just deep on the place cause everyone around her was doing that. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we see, I mean obviously we see a lot of that in colleges which is the very place we should be teaching critical thinking. [SPEAKER_00]: So, colleges, honestly, I didn't university, that's where they should be teaching us how to think, not what to think. [SPEAKER_00]: But we have to take ownership for that ourselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that requires sometimes a lot of work. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a reading a book called The Case for Christ a few years back. [SPEAKER_00]: And for anyone listening, I, this obviously, we didn't start this conversation at all, talking about, I wasn't ever, that wasn't on the, on the menu in terms of faith and spirituality. [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm like to anyone who's like, it's not, I'm like, just read that book, just read that book.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it will take you a long time and your brain is going to hurt a little bit, but just you owe that. [SPEAKER_00]: If you're going to say you believe something or don't believe it, at least do your homework and you know, and that's a great book to just help people process.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say the same when it comes to [SPEAKER_00]: immigration or the economy or political ideology's communism great study communism really hard look at where that's worked What's all the great things about how that has worked so well? [SPEAKER_00]: You know capitalism is it perfect? [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's not but which country does everyone including me? [SPEAKER_00]: May I say immigrant want to move to?
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so I just, all I can do and as a parent, but you know, in our, in our roles, you've got this podcast, it's just encourage people. [SPEAKER_00]: Put in the cognitive effort to really thinking through, what is it you want to believe? [SPEAKER_00]: Because if you don't, you know what you want to believe, obviously you can fall for anything and get swept up in some really destructive ideologies, but also hurt yourself.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I'd mention to you that one of the changes that I made to my own mentality was to try to be as present and to operate as I possibly could at all times and to live in reality.
[SPEAKER_03]: and I haven't talked about this a lot on the show, but I have mentioned it tangentially around this idea of like, I'm open, I tend currently to skew in what people would consider more of a conservative viewpoint currently, but that's because I look at the world and I look at where receipts come from, right? [SPEAKER_03]: The receipts for success, and I can't, I can't look away from that, [SPEAKER_03]: Old Testament news testament, whichever you prefer, or both.
[SPEAKER_03]: Regardless of whether you want to believe in God or not, there is no denying that [SPEAKER_03]: The Bible produces incredibly positive results when you live as close as you can to the guideline set. [SPEAKER_03]: Right now, my mom is a Bible literalist. [SPEAKER_03]: We argue about this constantly. [SPEAKER_03]: I see the Bible more as a guidebook from God. [SPEAKER_03]: She sees it as words pass down verbatim.
[SPEAKER_03]: I tend to think that that's bananas, she knows that as much as I love her to death, and these are the fun conversations that we have. [SPEAKER_03]: However, we are in complete agreement that if you follow the guidelines, you will have positive outcomes. [SPEAKER_03]: More positive outcomes than you would if you, you know, if you were to follow say a secular lifestyle. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I'm going to take Hinduism, Buddhism, some of the Eastern religions out.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know enough about them. [SPEAKER_03]: My understanding is they seemingly line up very similar and a lot of their belief structures, so they probably are great guidebooks too. [SPEAKER_03]: But, [SPEAKER_03]: I look at these ideas like defund the police, like this stolen land thing, flatterth. [SPEAKER_03]: There's no receipts, right? [SPEAKER_03]: You can't produce.
[SPEAKER_03]: You could not come to my office and set down on my desk and say, Ryan, here's the receipt for why these ideas work. [SPEAKER_03]: There's not one. [SPEAKER_03]: There's literally not one. [SPEAKER_03]: And people still believe them. [SPEAKER_03]: So, [SPEAKER_03]: My question for you is, I'm a leader and I need to operate in this ecosystem, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: How do I, what do I need to adjust about how I convey my message to [SPEAKER_03]: help my team, you know, trying most businesses stay out of politics and stuff, but there are ideas, right? [SPEAKER_03]: These ideas that don't ever seeds that propagate through, like a good one is diversity equity inclusion, right? [SPEAKER_03]: I'm all for diversity of thought, and I've never understood as a capitalist, I've never understood racism. [SPEAKER_03]: I said a thousand times on here.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you are a capitalist, if you believe in capitalism, racism is the stupidest idea that's ever existed, because all you should want is the most hardworking [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's energetic, smart people, right? [SPEAKER_03]: That's what you do. [SPEAKER_03]: So it's stupid. [SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm not talking about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm talking about when you take people who, in some cases don't even want these jobs or aren't, and you stick them in, and now you're forcing these people who high achievers versus people who aren't necessarily, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And you're, [SPEAKER_03]: And now this is I, you haven't seen one positive outcome from DEI outside of just pure county numbers from an HR perspective and [SPEAKER_03]: excluding diversity of thought.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm talking purely on race, gender, sex, diversity of thought obviously is not, it doesn't get included in there, because that is something you want, right? [SPEAKER_03]: But we continue to propagate these ideas. [SPEAKER_03]: And every company, oh, well, almost every company that has put these policies in place, well, it's about 57% of the S&P 500 has removed their DEI program after five years.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so there's going to be another idea like this, [SPEAKER_03]: How do I side step this as a leader? [SPEAKER_03]: How do I help my people live in the reality of the marketplace and the society that we're in and not get caught in some of these ideas? [SPEAKER_03]: How do you communicate that message? [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think leaders have to be so clear in their values. [SPEAKER_00]: Lead from your values, not from emotions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the winds are always going to be shifting. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think people are looking. [SPEAKER_00]: We don't look for a leader who we agree with on everything. [SPEAKER_00]: What people really crave and are looking for? [SPEAKER_00]: A leaders who, they know, can't control everything around them, but can control themselves. [SPEAKER_00]: which guide their decisions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we might agree with all those, but we can at least respect that they have a consistency and that's true for them. [SPEAKER_00]: And so when it comes to all of the social hot button issues that obviously see years today, like chime in on those, chime in on that, that, you know, 10 years ago that they'd never have to chime in on stuff that was completely irrelevant to their brick-making manufacturer. [SPEAKER_00]: facility.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now it's like, what do you say on this and that? [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, is this relevant to your business? [SPEAKER_00]: And if it's not relevant to your business, like focus on what's relevant to your business and communicate the values that guide you as a leader. [SPEAKER_00]: And I've worked with, you know, at Princeton, I know Alita, he's the CEO of a very, very, very large company.
[SPEAKER_00]: People say, you know, tell me about, you know, what guides you with a leader, and he goes, you know what? [SPEAKER_00]: And he's, he's a strong Christian. [SPEAKER_00]: He goes, this is what guides me as a leader. [SPEAKER_00]: He's not expecting everybody else to have his beliefs, but like, this is what guides me as a leader. [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to know what guides me, this is it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm sure he has different opinions on things than some people might in his really large company. [SPEAKER_00]: But he's up front. [SPEAKER_00]: This is what guides me. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that is what commands respect and trust. [SPEAKER_00]: Because we want to look up to leaders and know that they're trying to be as congruent and having integrity and what they hold to be true and what they do and what they say.
[SPEAKER_00]: And often we see inconsistency, and when we see inconsistency, it breeds distrust. [SPEAKER_00]: And it undermines the psychological safety, it undermines culture. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would say it's a later get really clear about what are the values and are you in alignment with those values. [SPEAKER_00]: And anywhere you see grat gaps, whenever there's gaps, what do you need to do to close that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Marguerwell, ladies and gentlemen, the book is the Courage Gap, five steps to braver action. [SPEAKER_03]: I think our world needs more courage and more bravery, more than ever before. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for your time. [SPEAKER_03]: I love your work. [SPEAKER_03]: I love the way you think about the world. [SPEAKER_03]: Where can people go deeper into your work?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, obviously, anyone who's interested in reading the book, which I also narrated, grab a copy, I have a website, it's my name, Maggie Wharrell. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm on LinkedIn, you can connect there and across different socials as well. [SPEAKER_00]: I promise you I try and be a source of positivity, optimism, and that's what I want to bring to the world. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm so grateful for the chance to chat with you and all those who listen to you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_02]: You have a great day. [SPEAKER_02]: We're out of here, guys.