What kind of a show you guys.
Putting on here today?
You're not interested in art?
Now?
No, look, we're going to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation.
From Chicago. This is Film Spotting celebrating our twentieth year.
I'm Adam Kempenar and I'm Josh Larson.
To me, being a gangster was better than being President of the United States.
Never right on your friends, and always keep in mind shut go by.
I meant being somebody in the neighborhood that was full of nobody's Jimmy, Tommy, Henry Pauley, the whole gang is here for our Pantheon Project review of Goodfellas, which came to theaters thirty five years ago.
This month, plus I caught up with the Roses and the intriguing new indie Lurker. All that and a new deeply flawed Film Spotting Paul Ahead on Film Spotting, you.
Were treated like movie stars with muscle.
We had it all just for the asking else on I belong.
Welcome to Film Spotting, the first international edition of the show. Josh. You are coming to us from the City of Saint Andrew's, County, Fife, Scotland. Have you ever felt less like a gangster.
I have not run into any gangsters. There's got to be a CD underbelly to this place, though, Adam. I mean, for one thing, there's way too much golf going on here, and that is that's never a good sign.
You got to pick up the sticks.
Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen. I'll try to investigate and see if I can find that underbelly, because right now I got to tell you this is ridiculously picturesque here on the coast of the North Sea. So it can't always be like this. I hope it is, but probably not.
This week you played catch up on some new Ish releases Olivia Coleman and Benedict Cumberbatch in The Roses. Also lurker at Dark Tale about pop music fandom. We've also got results from the Pixar versus studio Jubilip and a new deeply flawed film spotting Pool, asking you to choose one musical from the nineteen sixties. The Hills are Alive, or so I've been told.
But first Goodfellas at thirty five. Goodfellas came to theatres September twenty one, nineteen ninety. It ended up making forty six million dollars in change at the box office. That was enough to put it ahead of the Stevens Sagal starring Marked for Death. I don't know if you remember that one.
Adam robbed of the Best Picture nomination.
However, Goodfellows was just behind the Sagal starring Hard to Kill Now Hard to Sounds familiar. I completely blanked on Marked for Death.
I'm afraid.
Goodfellows was nominated for six Oscars, including Best Picture and Director. Also nominated that year gangster movie Royalty, Brancis Ford Coppola's Godfather Part three, also the De Niro starring Awakenings and Ghost. The Best Picture went, however, to Kevin Hostner's Dances with Wolves.
Thirty five years later.
We're not going to be talking about any of those films. We are talking about Goodfellas.
Here's a scene. Take it away, Mama Scarcese.
And he's mad.
You don't talk too much.
Quiet for me.
You don't eat much, you don't talk much.
I'm just listening tomorrow.
You remind me of when we were kids, com paris just to visit one another, and there was this man. He would never talk. He would just sit there all night and not say a word. So they says to him, what's American Paris? Don't you talk? Don't you say anything? He says, what am I going to say that? My wife two times me, so she says to him, shut up, you're always talking. But in Italian it sounds much nice.
Josh. One thing I don't remind you of enough is that you're a year and a half older than me.
It's true.
Why is that relevant? We've never really parsed the details, but I think we may have had our cinephile awakenings at roughly the same ages, just not at the same times. Let's jump into the DeLorean destination circa September twenty first, nineteen ninety. I'm going to run through a quick list. You tell me how many boxes you check off. Number one, saw Goodfellas in the theater, number two, number two, I'm gonna get through all of them.
Here.
You tell me your account. Number two watched at the movies, double thumbs up review. Number three Red ciskeles you were a trib house after all, and or Ebert's review where you would have scanned this high praise. No finer film has ever been made about organized crime, not even The Godfather. Although the two works are not really comparable, both critics would name it their number one film of the year.
Number four understood that after opening the eighties with a masterpiece in Raging Bowl, Scorsese looked to be starting the nineties with another. I'll also accept in some sense that there was prestige attached to a Martin Scorsese film. Where are you at with those four?
Yeah?
I definitely hit all of those your The last question made me think, had I seen Raging Bowl yet at that point?
Right?
Possibly I have, but definitely aware of its.
Stature for sure.
Okay, Well, I needed another eighteen to twenty four months. I went, oh for four. It's entirely possible. Goodfellows played at my hometown cinema, the one i'd eventually be a projectionist and usher at, But it wouldn't have mattered because it wasn't on my radar at all. I didn't catch Ciskel and Eberts at the movies takes, nor was I reading the Sun Times or Tribune in Iowa in print,
nor could I contemplate Scorsese's legacy. I didn't finally see Goodfellows until a full year later, after renting it from one of my local video stores, I distinctly remember being drawn to that VHS case, or the top half of it. Anyway, I still don't know what's happening in the bottom half. De Niro's prominence may have had something to do with it.
I was familiar with him, but I think it's how he's position as the centerpiece of that sinister besuited triumvirate, with Leoda and Peshi angled to the sides, all three emerging evocatively out of the pure darkness. It felt timeless, somehow, already a classic, which was appropriate since I'm almost certain I was under the impression that it was several years old. The box alone suggested the movie was momentous, and when I watched it, despite not being equipped with the vocabulary
to articulate it, I recognized that it was. Was it the kinetic dynamism of Michael Balhaus's camera, combined with Thelma Shoemaker's cutting, the intoxicating allure of the gangster life as Henry sees it, welcome back to that, the sweep of it covering parts of four decades, and Henry's rags to to housecoat and egg noodles with ketchup tail. Maybe there was a guy at school who I thought deserved a good pistol whipping. You know, this really isn't about me,
It's about you, Josh. What made Goodfellas feel momentous back in ninety and what makes it feel momentous still?
Well, not only at that point had I caught the movie, bug I was passing it on and inflicting it on Debbie, who we had probably just started dating, maybe six ten months before Goodfella's Fall nineteen ninety release. And thankfully, maybe this is one of the reasons we started dating. Found out she loved mob movies, and what a year. Maybe this is what brought us together, Adam, we've already talked about a few of these, Godfather Part three and Goodfellas.
You realize Miller's Crossing came out in October, so we were averaging if you consider Godfather Part three was a December release, we were averaging almost a let's say, key mobster movie, if not a masterful mobster movie a month one a month in that fall and early winter.
And yeah, what.
A time to be alive, What a time to be coming into love with films? So it was the thrill of it. That's what was momentous for me that first time I saw it. Your phrase kinetic dynamism, Yeah, that's what it was. Just we've talked about this in terms of Miller's Crossing, is coming to realize the choices that filmmakers are making in terms of the camera movement or the editing and all the things we're going to dig into.
Goodfellas had that right there for you to eat up on the screen, like I would argue something like Miller's Crossing does, And so yeah, that's that's what it was.
Then.
Now what feels momentous about it. I think for me it's the movie's moral weight. And I had a little advance work done on this film because I saw it maybe a couple of years ago.
Now.
I wrote a piece for Think Christian looking at Martin Scorsese's mob movies in particular, with the thesis that they were just as religious as something like Last Temptation of Christ or Silence. Maybe not explicitly so, but if you take them all together, from Mean Streets to the Irishmen and everything in between, including Goodfellas, you see that these movies depict organized crime as a religion that is full of these laws you must follow ritual, yeah, that's it,
but key devoid of mercy and grace. And so when I looked at Goodfellas through this lens, it was fascinating to me how it fitted to a tea as all of his did, and depicted these guys who are beholden to this code. That is, they think they're above the law, but they've chosen adherence to a code that is more unforgiving than any legal system could be. And it's also a world that has no benevolence again, no mercy to it. They're subject to greater suffering than the schnooks, as Henry Hill would.
Say in the end.
And so it's just these movies and Goodfellas particularly, I think they're sinners who freed themselves from the law, but they've only shackled themselves into chains of their own making. And to bring this to Goodfellas, And a particular scene where this clarifies for me, both when I watched a few years ago and just now, I think in his Mob movie canon the Christmas party scene after the heist that has gone down successfully and Jimmy is throwing a
party at the bar to celebrate. I think it's the defining scene theologically speaking, because yes, it's Christmas, right, But what do you have here? You have Jimmy making all of these rules, and when they're broken, there is hell to pay.
Am I say?
Enough to go buy anything for a while.
It's a wedding gift, Jimmy, it's.
From my mother.
It's on the name. I just gone out.
I loved that car.
I'm sure's being valued for just a second. I just gone out. Johnny, you got your nuts?
What are you get excited for?
Jay?
What am I get excited for?
You?
Are you stupid?
We've got a million feebles out there, everybody's watching this, and you get a called I love this name.
It's a wedding gift, a fool's name. It's so now, you stupid? O'd What did you hear what I said?
Don't buy anything, don't get anything, nothing big than you?
What I said? What's the matter with you? What are you getting excited for? Am I get excited about? Because you're gonna get us all fur pinched? That's why?
What are you stupid?
It's matter with you? I apologize? What's the matter with you?
Sorry?
The is the matter with you?
This should be a celebration of victory, of triumph, of beating the Schnooks, but instead with we get these guys who are under the burden of a law that is even heavy. And the great irony of this taking place in a Christmas setting. You know, if theologically you think about the Christmas gift and and this gift gift of grace and forgiveness and freedom from the law, good laws and bad laws. I'll stop there and save the rest
for that. This isn't the thing Christian podcast. So but yeah, that is the thing that struck me watching Goodfellas this last time, which was just you know, of course kicked off by that deeper study I did a few years ago.
I'm smiling and kind of laughing to myself, even just because I love de Niro. How could you not love d Naro throughout this entire film as Jimmy Conway, but especially in that sequence, just starting with the camee you, and he's so happy, he's so excited to see Henry, to see ray Leota, and then it just goes downhill once that pink Cadillac shows up outside, right, And what I keep thinking about, I wasn't going to initially start
with this. I had this like third on my list, and I wasn't very familiar with what you had previously written about this, but I knew or had a feeling we would go here. And I was a little bit hesitant, Josh, because this is this is your corner, and we're talking about a mob movie. So if I if I go to quickly down this path, or I spend too long on this corner, I mean, I might get whacked right, And I don't know if I if I should tread into your your territory.
It's all.
Especially when you think about a movie like Mean Streets, where we meet de Niro as an actor in a Scorsese film, and there's there's a fair amount of crossover between the two films. When I think about those movies, and we're going to talk a little bit about even the use of color red. When I think about the two movies, and I think they're used in a very pointed and similar way, there is a key to diference
for me. And there's a key difference here for me between a lot of other Scorsese films, not just the gangster films, and that is this is not a revelation
to anyone. Obviously, a lot of Scorsese's films are preoccupied with the notion of sin and the notion of redemption, and you have characters who are very torn and conflicted between these two worlds, the moral world and the world of the flesh, and their corporeal desires and money and the worldly things that they want to occupy themselves with, and and again they often are seeking some kind of absolution for their sins. And there is nothing like that whatsoever in our hero here.
Now.
It's simply completely absent. And why that strikes me is because it feels to me this is based on true material. Henry Hill is a real character. I've never read the book. I don't know, and I don't care for the purposes of our conversation how true it is to that story.
But it's interesting to me that it feels like Scorsese wasn't concerned in this case with imposing that absolution storyline onto Henry Hill, and he was content to have a character who from the very beginning, as we meet him, and actually as we meet him and we're going to talk about the prolog, I'm definitely going to talk about the prolog as we meet him later in the story, and then as we meet him as a teenage boy making his decision, he has decided what path he's going
to take. He has chosen the path of sin, and he stays on that path completely until the very end, and he never has any doubt about that path. Unlike most of the Scorsese heroes that we might think about the Scorsese conflicted protagonist, he never has any doubt about that. He constantly chooses what serves his worldly desires at every turn. He never is thinking about redemption. He is in the hell, the hell of his making from the very beginning of
this film, and he's happy to be there. And when you look at Henry Hill as a character, he is, yes, less. I don't want to use a technical term because I don't really necessarily know all the distinctions in terms of the actual scientific definitions or psychological definitions. But he's less psychopathic than Tommy, and he's not as crazy as Jimmy, right, But that doesn't mean he's a better guy. I mean,
maybe he's a slightly better guy. He doesn't want Maury to die, but I think that's just because it kind of just means a little more stress for him because Maury's wife is going to be hanging around the house. He doesn't actually really care that much more about Maury. He's not actually a more compassionate human being. He is always just looking out for himself. So it's it. I'll
just use the word interesting again. It's interesting to me that in this movie, and in this gangster movie Milieu, where we've seen him so many other times, have characters that are really struggling with this notion of sin. We have a character here who is not struggling at all.
Yeah, completely agree, and that is a distinction of something like Goodfellas. Think about even The Irishman, where, to my mind, where we end up in that nursing home with the DeNiro character, and he is at least if he's not sorry or regretful, he's pondering the weight of his actions. And I don't think Henry Hill ever does that. He is completely the way you were talking about him, psychologically, he is a moral right, there's just a disinterest in the morality.
Of any situation, good way to put it.
And this connects with Leota's performance, which you know, it's that box, the VHS box. When you're describing it. It instantly comes back to me, and my first thought as you started describing it is how bizarre. I get the marketing reason, but how bizarre that Leota isn't in the center right instead of because the way he drives this entire film.
And the one thing that stood out to me that was completely fresh on this most recent viewing Adam, was the quality of his The definitive quality of Leota's performance, to me, connects with what we're talking about. Eagerness. Henry is so eager to be a part of this lifestyle.
He doesn't give a second thought to the repercussions for his family, for his education, for anything when he's a boy, when he's a teenager, this is Think about the smile on and I think it's Christopher Cerone playing the young Henry at this point. What a great match for Lioda as an adult too, just physically, but also the way
he carries himself, the way he has that eagerness. He has this beaming smile while he's watching these guys get away with this, and it just gets bigger once they bring him into the fold, and.
That carries through every scene.
I think that Liota is in even the famous Joe peshe you think I'm a clown scene. Notice how hard Henry Hill is laughing at those jokes.
He says, no, you're going to tell me something today, tough guy.
I said, all right, I'll tell you something.
Give mother.
To pay for a.
Now I'm coming around, you know, I start to come out of it.
Oh, I see in front of me this big brick again.
He says, Oh, what do you want to tell me now?
Tough guy?
I said, dang, what do I thought to tell you? To go?
Mother?
He is so eager to be in that group laughing at him in a in a supportive way, you know, I know that's what they get to an argument about. He's also he's eager for the violence too. You brought up Maury that moment when Jimmy wraps the cord around Maury's neck. Henry's there laughing.
You know.
He does, eventually, I think, try to count things down, but his immediate instinct is to laugh. He's eager for the violence. He even takes a slap in the face from Polly, one of those affectionate slaps. He receives that eagerly. It's like, slap me again, Polly, because that means I'm in and so that was a distinctive quality to this great Rali out of performance that stood out to me that I think connects exactly with what you're talking about, this amorality of the character.
And it could have something to do with the fact, like Jimmy, he is Irish, he is not Italian, so he's an outsider. He is someone who may have to exhibit, or at least early on exhibited some of that eagerness and it just sort of stuck. He has to ingratiate himself into this world because he is not the same as everyone else around him. I'm gonna go back. Let's see if i can say it twice. We can say it for a third time in the show Kinetic Dynamism.
The pantheon may need a pantheon for the movies that seem to scene, moment to moment deliver the most thrilling filmmaking. I didn't go through the list, but do the right Thing would be in it, and Goodfellas, goodfellas would be in it. That's how good every scene is and how good every choice is. And unlike some of our recent revisits, we've had a bunch of sacred cows and Pantheon Project
reviews recently. It hasn't been twenty or thirty years since I've seen Goodfellas, so I really was a little nervous, and I didn't know what to expect from this conversation. I don't know the last time I watched it in one sitting, but I'll borrow a phrase from Billy Bean and Moneyball the movie. Anyway, I've certainly recreated it in the aggregate. I don't know how many countless times I've watched scenes from it or picked up, you know where, whatever it was on TV. I know this movie well.
But even if there weren't going to be or I didn't expect there to be any Capital R revelations, there did still end up being aspects to discuss that I hadn't strongly considered before. And you used a word earlier, just a short time ago, talking about Liota. You said, watching, and I said, in my setup, the intoxicating allure of the gangster life as Henry sees it. And there's two parts there. We may talk about the intoxicating allure of the gangster life part, but for me, the more important
part is is as Henry sees it. Because if we go back to and we consider the opening with Billy Bats in the trunk as a sort of prologue, and that's how I'm going to refer to it. How does
that culminate? It culminates with that incredible it feels to me just like John Wayne in Stage Coach like introduction, the rushing tracking shot that stops in a freeze frame on Leota's face in close up, his eyes looking past the camera, and that's where we get the famous line as far back as I can remember, right, And if it wasn't for the credits in between, it would be almost a match cut from that close up on his eyes, those piercing Rayliota eyes two Henry Young, Henry's eyes looking
at the gangsters across the way from from his apartment, looking at them down on the stoop, and that great shot, the cinematography, the beam, the reflection beaming in the iris of his eye.
Right.
So, yes, of course he's the narrator. This is his telling his tale, the retelling of events. But I had never fully paid attention to just how much Scorsese leans into that point of view. How often we watch Henry, who, as I said, is an Italian, isn't born into the mob. How often we watch him watching, like when he's worried about Maury getting whacked, He's watching the dynamic the entire time.
A bunch of examples of that, right, or more directly, you take a shot like the steady Kim introductions the classic you know, I'm gonna go get the papers, Get the papers, when he introduces us at the restaurant to everybody,
and it's amazing. And if you, I guess, if you wanted to somehow take a shot at Scorsese for just showing off, you'd be like, well, that's what he's doing there, But actually that's Henry's point of view, walking through that restaurant, introducing us to those characters as if we're seeing it through Henry's eyes. Or how about the other great scene where he wakes up to find Karen pointing the gun
right at him slash us. Or one of my new favorite shots that I just never appreciated before, which is when he gets out of jail. Think about how simple this is, Josh, Like, how subtle this is? Because I think it's so easy to miss. Again, I don't know how many times I've seen Goodfellows, but I just never thought about it in these terms before, and it's not a bravura camera moment, but I still think it's ingenious and it's a choice. It's still a choice that's being made,
and it's an atypical filmmaking choice. When he gets out of jail and he goes back to the apartment or whatever space Karen has the kids currently.
Living there with the bunk beds, and there.
The bunk beds, and I believe it's it's a single shot and you hear a door open, and you hear the kids say something like what do you think, Daddy? You know I made that picture or something. The camera is looking at the room, we are seeing the camera. It's almost like it does a three point sixty turn about the room, and then as it scans across the room, it finally ends ultimately on Henry and he says like, Karen, get everything packed. Yeah, we're getting out of here, right.
So it doesn't it doesn't start on the door. Any other filmmaker or a lot of other filmmakers would have started that sequence with the door opening and Henry walking in and then cut to him seeing the room and then cut back to his reaction shot. Scorsese in one shot doesn't show us that it's his point of view, in fact, allows it to be our point of view, the audience's point of view. First, we get to process the room almost as if we're seeing it before Henry does.
We have to take in the relative squalor of the conditions. We get to react with our eyes before he even does. It's kind of like we're seeing it through his eyes, but we're also in a way it feels like we're seeing it before he does. So it's it's not just a POV shot, it's our perspective in a way, aligning or superseding his perspective. And then Josh the capper to that.
For me from the point of view perspective, here, what really just blew me away this time watching it is then you get to something like the Kopa, the famous steadycam shot there where Scorsese is graciously allowing us to experience in real time the rewards of Henry's chosen profession, the access, the glamour, though it's mostly what Karen is experiencing, because for Henry we have to assume it's old hat, but for Karen it's new. It's exhilarating and I always
just thought about it. In those terms, we get to follow them in and we get to follow them in real time. It's a literal film school textbook version of how to use the steadycam. And I say literal because yesterday in class I used it right even before it was just coincidence that we were talking about Goodfellows this week. I used it last fall too. It's the textbook example
of how to use the steady cam shot. But until I watched it this time for our discussion and was really thinking about how he was using point of view, I didn't fully pick up on the fact that the real genius is in how the sequence ends. We stay tethered to them the entire time. We are following them the entire time, except at the very end where we see the staff bring the table out, and then what happens.
Henry and Karen actually step slightly to the right out of the frame, and the camera I think, moves forward a little bit as the table gets placed down, and you know, Henry and Karen they're going to take their seats in a second, but just for a moment, that table has been placed down just for us. So it's another moment where our point of view is both aligning with but also again for lack of a better word, superseding,
Henry's point of view. And that's the perspective that we feel throughout the entire movie as we relive this, this gangster life, this saga that Henry is experienced.
Yeah, the point of view thing brings up an interesting question I'll ask you in just a second. But as far as that copa cabana shot, the thing that stood out to me on this viewing is related to the religious ritual. I had never noticed that table being lifted up in the air, and you're right, we suddenly focus on it rather than them, and it has a white table cloth, and it's moving briskly through the crowd, back
and forth. It's almost like some sort of robe that is flowing, or there's this angelic sense to it that is you could you could envision something like that going down a church aisle, right and being placed down as some sort of sacred object, which is the that the camera is giving it. So, yeah, as far as the point of view thing goes, you're right, this movie is interestingly aligned with Henry Hill's point of view, though not technically the same way all the time.
But it's absolutely his story.
And so what did you make on this viewing of the choice to allow Karen's narration to have some space in this narrative.
We always did everything together and we always were in the same crowd. Anniversaries, Christenings, we only went to each other's houses. The women played cards, and when the kids were born, Mickey and Jimmy were always the first at the hospital. And when we went to the Islands of Vegas for vacation, we always went together, no outsiders. Ever,
it got to be normal. It got to where I was even proud that I had the kind of husband who was willing to go out and risk his neck just to get us the little.
Extras fluring Brocco here as Karen, and I think, oh man, I should have marked this down. There are maybe three sections dedicated to her in terms of voiceover, but I think the performance is dynamic enough that she also brings a presence and makes it her story when she's not delivering a voiceover. But it is a break from this very specific choice to align us in the movie with Henry Hill. So how did that play.
Out for you on this viewing, Well, it made sense because there are certain things that obviously only Henry can know and have seen and experienced, and those are the things we see only through his point of view. But there are things that she was witnessed to, and those are the things that she gets to articulate that she was part of. It worked for me, Josh, because not only that, but this whole sense that it is a memory,
that is something he is retelling it. It feels like it's going back into the past until we get caught up to the quote unquote present day, and where we know we're in the present day officially, I think anyway, is when they're having the conversation with the FBI guy about whether or not they're going to go into the witness protection program. That for me is the moment where
the story has now caught up. And so I I think that the dual voiceovers, how I reconcile that is it's as if they are both putting their stories on the page. Rather they're on the record, whether it's for the FBI or it's for some other some of the storyteller. Nevertheless, it's it's in the present day. It's it's officially on the record. And and then and she now is is entering that part of the story officially through that through that route. So I love that we get her perspective.
And I love the rain Brocos performance.
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
I mean I've always I've always been favorable on it. It's just interesting to think about it as the years go by, and in Contexte what you were talking about. I think for me, it's definitely justified practically in the ways you describe, but also it is I mean, the performance justifies it, the way it's written, the material that she's given justifies it. And right from the first instance we see her. How about the line she delivers this is on their double date, the first thing she says
to them, have some coffee, it'll wake you up. She is not no matter she doesn't really know who this guy is yet. But still, you know, you have to imagine that is that's not the demure way to approach a first date, even if it's you know, someone who you're not really that interested in.
And what is really interesting.
About Karen I think, and this again has been you know, it wasn't necessarily a revelation, but how entirely complicit she is in all this. I think that's fascinating and more interesting than making her a victim. This clarified eyes and to me in a new way, perhaps with the scene where he does take his gun and with the butt of it beat her neighbor nearly to death. For from what we understand, the neighbor has assaulted Karen and he
just says hide this. We get an insert shot, so many crucial key insert shots in this movie, close ups of the bloody gun and she grabs it.
I know there are women like my best friends who would have gotten out of there the minute their boyfriend gave them a gun to hide. Well, I didn't. I gotta admit the truth. It turned me on.
And I think what that moment shows to me is that in that voiceover, I think once or twice she talks about how sexy he is and turn, which is one ingredient. Sure, that's that's interesting, But this scene with the hide this and the gun shows that it's not just his sexiness. It's not even necessarily his connections for the you know, the favors they can get. It's that he can be a protector. That's part of what appeals
to her about Henry. And in a way, Henry offers Karen the same sort of quote unquote protection that Paul offering the neighborhood, right.
He describes that that's that's what the mom's really doing, right.
Yes, Yeah, and he describes it as, you know, a positive thing, right, yes, but all we see are the costs of that.
Yeah.
And and Karen is in a similar position to where she makes a deal and is in some ways coerced, but she makes the choice to pursue that protection and it costs her as well. And yeah, and Broco just you know, with the dynamism and the ferocity that she has from beginning to end, is the performance earns this diversion from the single point.
Of view that we otherwise we're getting, and she is all those things you describe, And then to show the complexity of the character in Broco's range, maybe my favorite single word reading of hers watching it this time is that night where right after they're just married, Henry stays out too late and she's sticking up, She's standing up for herself and Henry to her mom right, sounding like the independent woman, I don't care what Henry does, stay
out of it, mom, all those things. But then after he comes back and then turns around and goes back out. She says Dad, like she sounds just like a child, like she needs dad's help with mom. But also maybe Dad can give some advice about Henry. And it's just perfect that little that little girl is still inside her at the same time. Right, even though she is all those things, she's not this demurror girl, but she also
still kind of is. And I wanted to talk about this because I think you set this up nicely, and I don't want to create any straw men here, so you can tell me if I'm heading down the wrong path. I haven't read any detailed arguments along these lines, but you like me, and I'm sure most people listening have certainly seen tweets and different arguments come up on social media here and there about people taking shots of Scorsese
for romanticizing. This goes back to the intoxicating a lower part romanticizing this type of lifestyle, or at least romanticizing or glorifying a certain type of toxic masculinity that we often see in these types of gangster characters. And I have to imagine that Goodfellas is an exhibit in that case. And I here, Josh, I don't want to this isn't just me disagreeing with it. I honestly, watching it this time, I really don't see any basis for it at all.
And I'm not trying to be obtuse about it, because I've seen this movie enough. As I said that, I didn't expect any major surprises, and I would say overall, I didn't have any huge shocks. But if you had asked me before rewatching it, how Goodfellas began? How does a Goodfellows start? I think I would have mistakenly said, well, it starts as far back as I can remember. I always wanted to be a gangster. It starts with Henry in the past saying I wanted to be a gangster,
and it starts in the fifties. I would have bypassed the prolog. I forgot about the prolog. But you can't bypass the prolog. Scorsese doesn't bypass the prolog. Why does he open the film the way he does, with the first sound we're hearing and the first images we're hearing being the car rolling down the road, the highway, the early hours of the morning, two guys, two mobsters sleeping in the car, Henry barely awake, right they've just done
something really wrong, really bad. We don't know that yet, Viewers don't know that yet, but the guy's in the car do certainly the driver knows. And what's happening. We're about to find out that there's a guy who should be dead, bleeding profusely in the trunk of the car. And when they open it, that's when we get That's when we get the hellscape. That's when we get that
color red coming out from the trunk. And so this is all within like the first ninety seconds of the movie, Josh, We're going to watch Joe Peshy take a gigantic knife and stab into Billy Batts and the blood is going to start gurgling out of him right so, right away, right away, we get a sense of what this life is like. And even though even though we're going to then get that shot, we're going to get that wonderful, editing moment of him closing the trunk and on that
action and sound that heroic. It is heroic. I think Scorsese he is being deliberately ironic here. It's a heroic stagecoach Ringo like shot where it tracks forward in a hurry and it stops on him. But it's ironic because nothing we've seen up to that tracking shot is heroic, and the look on Raleiota's face that it freezes on,
nothing about his face suggests heroism. He looks scared as hell actually in that moment, right, And everything about the red is telling us whether we know anything about Martin Scorsese these other films or not, the color red is
making us very very uneasy. I actually think I was looking at this Josh, and I don't know if he did something technique wise or superimposing it over it, But there's a moment when that trunk opens where it actually looks like they do something almost like a technique out of Vertigo, where the color red seems to impose over the white sheet. It feels for a second like red just kind of starts to absorb over the body. It gets even bloodier for a second. And everything about that
suggests that there's nothing heroic going on. So when he actually says, as far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster, and the music and the horn start, you could actually you could you could just immediately burst out laughing. It's that it's that funny, right, so I think that's intended to be that hilarious, and he is saying, and as we watch the film, even if you take the even if you take the Kopa, that might be the only real moment, and even that's
a performance, Even that's a performance for Karen. Ask yourself, how many moments in the film you genuinely feel like you would want to trade places with Henry Hill, even for a moment or even that you feel a vicarious, a rush of adrenaline. I don't know that I could come up with with one or two. And look, I'm not a saint. I think you have to acknowledge, and I think Martin Scorsese understands that there is an element within all of us where we are like Karen, we
can get turned on by bad behavior. I still say you can't count the number of moments on maybe more than two fingers. If you're lucky where you really feel that they mostly have here and you were getting it this earlier. Henry and the mob characters there mostly just have power and they maintain their power through force, and with that comes a lot of ugliness. And it's just the power that he's drawn to. But that power isn't romantic and it's not sexy really. Ever in this.
Film, by the time we get to the helicopter sequence, which I don't think we've touched on yet, now that is where it's absolutely clear this guy is living a nightmare and he's got it worse off than any schnook he's putting in. Forget nine to five, he's putting in twenty two hour days, and he's paranoid for every second of them. I read the film the same way you do, but I will also say this is a conversation that's worth having. And I think Scorsese, throughout his career has
tiptoed along these lines of being deliberately ironic. And you know, this is part, not entirely, but part of our split on The Wolf of Wall Street. I do question sometimes you know, how much fun are are you going to have before you tell the audience this isn't fun even if you're being deliberately ironic. And in the case of Goodfellas, I find him to be walking that line quite convincingly and with dexterity and a moral clarity, a tone management. You know, this is where he is doing that at
his best. For me, yes, at least.
Am saying, if you want to have that argument, I think it's tough to include Goodfellas in that argument.
I mean, it's yeah, I didn't hold it up as an exhibit either. But when you use the word heroic for that push in to Henry, that's completely apt. It's also purposeful. I think that is a clear choice that he is making to be deliberately ironic that does not
negate its heroic effect. And this brings to mind that prologue has another kinetic element that I don't think I'd noticed before that adds to this sense of excitement and counters that shot of them where they're sleeping and bored, and it is the way the car when we first it might be the first shot of the film, the car, the cameras behind the car zooming down the freeway, and the camera all of a sudden revs up, swings to the next to the car that Henry's driving and almost
passes it. And it's it's as if Scorsese is saying, let's.
Go for a ride.
H I actually and I got a difference.
Around them and and pulls ahead of them. And this is what I loved about it, Adam. The credits that come on the screen right they're moving and if I'm remember it correctly, they appear they almost rev up and move into.
The same direction across.
The screen from right to left. All of that is it's that word we keep using. It's kinetic, it's exciting, it's sexy, it's it's heroic. And so I am not saying that I read the movie any differently than you are, right, but these are these are the deliberately ironic or how how high are we meant to be getting? This is always the question with we meant to be getting in moments like this. Now I agree with you. I don't think Goodfellas is, you know, ultimately a movie that you
could use as an argument for that. I have others that I've used, But it's there. It's there again.
Just think about most scenes in this film, sitting around at a restaurant getting yelled at by Tommy. What, getting a few free drinks? Like most of their life is pretty banal, right, Like it's not, it's really not alluring. They get to they hang out on the corner in a pizza joint, like great, they get to take whatever they want, Like that's not actually that that exciting? Ultimately, what you see in this film. And even I was
gonna say how nuanced the beginning is. You're right, the way the credits move, how it moves in sync, even the sound with the car. But my feeling watching the car because of how the car is kind of moving at a steady speed and you get the sense you see the guys and the way they're sleeping, and how the car is moving. It's not a very fast pace. It suggests to me that everybody's drowsy, and it's almost like the car could go off the road at any minute.
Like it doesn't feel it doesn't feel thrilling to me, but the but the way the credits are in sync with it almost feels like it is right. So there there are these opposing forces at play. But that's that's what that's what makes the film making exciting.
Yeah, he loves a play. He loves to play in that tension. And yeah, as you're describing, you know how banal their lives are. This comes back to the supposed freedom they've found by being above the law, right when actually they've trapped themselves in this bubble that constricts them more than if they were a schnook.
Exactly it's a great point. So just a few other things. I don't know if you had a list of other things or other items that you wanted to touch on, But I love what I think is intentional humor anyway of We'll go back to Maury, the fact that we get the commercial. We see that entire commercial. You know, Maury's wigs stay on, right, you can jump in the water, the wind, there could be a storm, right, Maury's wigs
never come off. But what happens then in the very next scene, turns out the wigs can handle everything but Jimmy Conway. Of course, you know, like that feels like a great joke embedded in there, because as soon as Jimmy Conway gets his hands on Maury, the whigs are to come off, doesn't.
It isn't it Jimmy watching the commercial, like discuss.
It's almost like you know, he's been thinking about it. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get that.
Off, Chuck as Maury.
By the way, those those editing touches, the the the way we allied moments the and here, some of them are thrilling to But we've already seen the prologue, so that we don't have to relive moments and revisit them again. When we leave the house, we actually get what is essentially a match cut on sound as there as the camera is in the house, we see the car in
the background, we hear bats in the trunk. In the very next shot, they're out on the road, and it's as if, well, did the did the sound come from the previous shot when he was in the driveway, or is the shot is the sound from the road. It doesn't really matter. They're from the same moment. But that's how he bridges that gap in time, right, it brings us there. There are such wonderful little moments like that. Another example of that is the time where I think
he's fighting with Karen. Henry's fighting with Karen and she I think it's right after she pulls the gun on him, and she goes into the closet and she yanks the clothes. So again action and sound combined. Right, she yanks and at the same time she yanks, you think she's yelling in anger, and maybe she is. But on the next frame, the next cut, he's out with the guys or something, and it's a cut to his face and he's yelling,
right so is he screaming? Is she screaming? Those cuts are cut together in that moment as if they are one moment that is happening together. There are so many examples. Oh, I got to give you one more. It is the same kind of thing here, but not with sound, with
with movement in editing. It's when Karen is complaining about that first date and how the moment he was you know, he was pushing me into the car and then he was pulling me out, and so then we see that enacted in the editing where just with one cut, it's as if, in one fluid motion, it's like she was pushed in and then literally taken out. It's just that's how that's how fluid the editing in this movie.
Is well, and it creates this cohesive, coherent experience where the two and almost two and a half hours, you know, all.
Feel of a piece.
They're propulsives, because that's it. There's movements like that from one moment to the other. Just yeah, a couple of last quick things. I'll say, we probably haven't talked about Joe Pesci much at all because it's such an iconic performance. What's left to say?
Real quick?
When I notice here, You know, the little things you notice when it's the umpteenth viewing and everyone's talked about this and impersonated it to death. When Billy Bats insults him by talking about the shoe shine story, he's it's not just that Tommy gets psychotically mad. Peshi gives us a few beats where he is genuinely hurt. He can tell he's a real human being who is feeling like, Hey, I'm here, I'm almost a made guy, and I still don't have their respect.
Hey, Tommy, if I'm gonna break your ball that day, to go home and get your shine box.
This Kidis kid was great.
I used to call him spit shine Comy. I swear to God, how you make your shoes look like mirrors? Excuse me my language.
He was terrific. He was the best.
He made a lot of money too. So hello Tommy, one more shines, Billy, what I said, no more shines? Maybe you didn't hear about it.
You've been away a long time. They didn't go up there and tell you I don't shine shoes anymore.
Relax, Well, your flock crow, what's what's got into you? I'm breaking your balls a little bit.
That's all.
I'm going to kid with you.
Sometimes you don't sound like you're kidding.
You know, there's a lot of people right I mean, I'm only kidding with you having a party. I mean I just came home. I haven't seen you in a long time, and I'm breaking your balls and away you're getting fish.
I'm sorry.
I don't know my offend you.
I'm sorry too.
It's okay, noo, I'll go home and get your shine box.
And the fact that you know this Pesci isn't just doing the you know below your top moments here. This is a really good performance de Niro. I love how comfortable he is just to be mostly in the background.
I know Jimmy comes into the focus a little more in the final third, but I almost like the beginning better, where you're watching this dynamic scene of violence or yelling or talking and and de Niro's kind of like the fourth guy in the scene, and he's just kind of you know, chuckling or grinning or doing something with his hands that's on point and brilliant, and he's so relaxed here you can just feel like there's no weight to carry this whole movie, and so he's just having as
much fun as he can in the corners. And then the last thing is a little are technical, but that famous dolly zoom shot at breakfast the diner, at the diner with Jimmy and Henry, where it realizes he's gonna set him up. Yeah, it's I think it appears to be zooming in on them while dining welling out right, So you're so things are a little unsteady. What I
noticed this time about it. I think that's the first time we realize Jimmy, who's older now, has these giant the glass nineteen eighties thick glasses which are comical and kind of undercut him as a threatening figure. But also in that scene they have a similar effect to the dolly zoom where you're like, you're a little disoriented by the thickness of him and his eyes are a little blurry. So that's just, yeah, one of those brilliant little flares
of techniques. Scar says he puts in here that that works thematically as well. They all work thematically. It's not none of this is showing off.
I'll say this about Tommy and the famous scene. You think I'm funny is I had never really thought about the fact that even though we have met Tommy before, we've met that character before, we haven't really gotten to know him, and we don't know yet that he's a psychopath. So that's our introduction to the real Tommy, And in that scene he actually is. He's not playing a psychopath, right, or he is acting like a psychopath, but it turns out he's being good natured. It's a joke, he's pretending,
but that is setting up. We get enough of a glimpse of how scary he really is in the performance within a performance, right that we do know, We do know or have enough of a sense of who he really is underneath that once we start to see his actions later, we see how he really does behave in some of these situations. Later, we're not surprised at all because we've seen the crazy come out. We've seen the crazy come out, even though it was a situation and he was performing.
What do you mean funny?
Funny?
How?
How am I funny? Just do you know how you tell a story? No? No, I don't know you said it?
How do I know you said I'm funny?
How do my funny?
What the is so funny about me?
Tell me, tell me what's funny?
Get me?
And I think it's it's the archetype for the you know, the gangster, hothead, psychotic. This is a very familiar type. But how she gives it all these layers we're talking about, which why it's why it makes it like the piece de resistance of this particular figure.
Here's my closing question, the thing I I do. I do want listeners to come in and give me an answer. Maybe it's in the book. Presumably all of the men who were part of the Luftanza heist, like Henry. I don't really know enough about the dynamics to say whether or not Jimmy definitely reports to Paulie or not as part of his crew, but Henry certainly does, don't. All
of these guys probably belong to Paully's crew. So when Jimmy just starts whacking everybody doesn't, doesn't Paulie maybe say, Hey, what's what's happening to all my guys all of a sudden, I've got no muscle anymore.
Yeah, I'm curious. A good question.
Jimmy seems to be operating on his own towards the end there, but even Henry, even says at one point, like, we can't touch those guys. That's part of them not being one hundred percent Italian, right, is that they can't with the wrong guy if but he also kind of says like, you know, we're we're held back. So so it's a good question. It also opens up has like how rogue has Jimmy gone, Like.
That's what that's kind of what I'm saying is like at that point, I don't know. Yeah, I'm curious about that. Maybe someone has the answer. It was fun talking about Goodfellas. Goodfellas is currently available vod and via quotes in your group chat. If you agree or disagree with anything we had to say, or you have any other thoughts about our show, you can email us feedback at filmspotting dot net.
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do that at Film Spottingfamily dot com. Thank you very much to Family plus member Wyatt Espeland from hiawassee Georgia Wyatt's letterbox handle if you want to follow him.
There is w E.
S p A l i n seventy five.
Okay, so it looks like Wes Palin seventy five. Wyatt writes. I toured the country performing as a singer, songwriter and always in a vehicle. I discovered Film Spotting during the Christopher Nolan UVRA View or UVRA Reviews and have been listening ever since. I became a member for the nineteen ninety nine draft as that was the peak of my movie watching years. That was Bonus show number fifty three last July I had to hear if any of you would pick Boys Don't Cry or The Green Mile, two
of my favorites from that year, we did not. I'm also happy that I can listen to archive episodes. Currently enjoying your revisit of Silence of the Lambs for its thirtieth a favorite review segment. I love the Year End and Oscar episodes, and I was all in on the Jane Campion Oove review marathon. I love Josh's comments on The Piano, which is one of my favorite movies of all time. I love all the rankings of directors films, and I like it when Josh and Adam catch up
on some of their blind spots. I don't like it when they disagree and the tension can be felt. It broke my heart when I found out Siskel and Ebert never really seem to like one another. Lol. Okay, I do confess I like the tension a little bit. Missus Miniver, anyone I hoped to hang out one day at a live event of all the movies? Yeah, Missus Miniver, what a wonderfully entertaining show, most of the time more entertaining
than the films being reviewed. Thanks for having me letterbox top four mostly representing my favorite directors, The color Purple, Hannah and Her Sisters, Once upon a Time in Hollywood, and Nixon. That's got to be the first Nixon appearing in a letterbox.
I think so more.
Oliver Stone favorite movie he revisited recently, Why It's His Natural Born Killers. A random film that he loves is The Butcher Boy from Neil Jordan, a movie he credits with becoming a cinophile. How about this when I watched my first Scorsese at fifteen years old, Goodfellas and The Last Temptation of Christ in the same week. There you go, a book about movies or movie making. I have all of Roger Ebert's review books. We think Wyatt for joining
the family and all those years of listening. In addition to keeping us doing what we're doing, your support comes with perks. You get to listen early in ad Free, You get our weekly newsletter. You get exclusive opportunities like being part of the so thoughtful Film Spotting Family Discord, and monthly bonus shows. We did just talk about Akira
Kurosawa's Stray Dog. Guess what pretty great movie. This month we will be having another edition of Trivia Spotting and we love playing that fun little game with all of our Film Spotting Family members. There are still slots available. We will put a link in the notes for this
show and the Film Spotting Family episode. Anyway, if you would like to sign up and be part of Trivia Spotting, Can I actually can I just brag real quick on the trivia front Josh our discord folks may have seen this, but can I brag for a second?
Yeah, go for it.
So it was an anniversary for Sarah and me last week, and so we decided it was a Wednesday night, we decided to have a drink, so we went to just the nearest bar to us to sneak out and have a drink. Turns out it was trivia night. We didn't even know this place had a trivia night. It was trivia night, pub trivia night, only like maybe five teams playing, and we show up. Round four is about to start. I don't know how many rounds there are. I just know round four is about to start. So obviously we've
missed a good part of the game. But they say it's the entertainment round, and so we're not gonna play because we missed most of the game. But then they asked the first question and I know the answer, so it's like, okay, it's on. I'm gonna go get I'm gonna go get a sheet, and we're gonna play. And so we start playing, and there were nine questions and I think I knew all nine of them. Sarah may not have been a lot of help on entertainment, but I knew all nine of them and we and we
got them right. So we had a good round. So then we're in turns out there are seven rounds, right, So between Sarah and I, we have two very different backgrounds educationally in interest. So we end up being a pretty good team. And in the end, with only having played four rounds and missing the first three, we only ended up losing. We ended up finishing second, and we only lost by four points. Hey, I know what you're gonna be doing next Wednesday night exactly. It's penciled into
our you're gonna mount here now. And and the thing is the team that the team that won, they were like these like really inebriated bros who I think were totally oblivious to the fact that we joined in round four and only lost by four points and they were like over celebrating and it was just like, so, you know what, We're definitely coming back.
This is a rivalry, this is my story.
Could be Sharks and Jets. I hope they ask a question about West Side Story. I think we'll get it, and they weren't. I could be wrong. Hey, this is about the film Spotting Family, though not my trivia prowess. You can learn more about the film Spotting Family at film spotting Family dot com.
Where you find you at greet or something.
No, he came into the store. I work at.
Music.
See yeah, sometimes, bro, you should come to the show.
Tell us.
That's from Lurker, a debut feature from director Alex Russell. As the title suggests, the innocuous sounding encounter between a musician and a fan takes a turn for the worse. But just how bad does it get? Josh, you caught up with this one and you are nominating it for the Golden Brick, which we award to our favorite film of the year by a new or emerging filmmaker. Tell us what you liked about Lurker.
It does get dark. I think maybe what I liked less was the direction it goes at the end. It kind of spins in different directions, and the darkness is part of that. But man, is this a movie that
hooks you with its opening scene. I'm not going to describe it in detail, but this is where the sales clerk Matthew played by Theodor Pellerin encounters this pop star Oliver played by Archie Medekui and and again won't give it away, but the way he entraps him and the way his eyes lock on him like he's prey, you realize, oh, we're dealing with someone really nefarious here. And the performance from Pellerin digs into that and is consistently to the end fascinating and unnerving.
He is.
There's just a desperation to this, a neediness to the performance that is electric in a strange way. It is very talented mister Ripley. There are definitely shades of that.
But I think the writer director here, Alex Russell make their debut, is he's also doing a character study that serves as a meditation on celebrity in some ways that Ripley didn't and authenticity, I think in some interesting ways that's what I really latched into, are the questions where it explores authenticity It's something that comes up in terms of Ouiver's music and who he wants to be as an artist. What is authentic? So it's not just about
the Matthew character, the sales clerk character. So there are a lot of interesting layers here. The last thing I'll quickly mention that I think makes it interesting as a golden brick too. You know, we're looking for a strong vision here, interesting choices. It is the music, Oliver's music.
What's the difference between love and obsession? I don't know, but I know I want you.
Kenneth bloom I Guess also known as Kenny Beats, composed the score but also worked with a variety of artists to bring out these songs. I would say Oliver is kind of a weekend like figure. To me, the music sounded like that. There's these sleepy, seductive songs that he performs. They really grab you and fit the character well and what the character is exploring again this authenticity question, and Medekue perform then brilliantly. You know, this is a really believable,
convincing rising pop star you've got here. So the use of music is something that makes Lurker stand out as well. I'll leave it there so I don't spoil anymore.
Okay, Lurker is out now. I think just playing in limited release. In wider release you can see the roses which you did. This stars Olivia Coleman and Benedict Cumberbatch as a well off married couple whose marriage goes bad. But it's comedy, so it's either going to go hilariously bad. Well that's the idea. It should go hilariously bad. SNL alums Kate McKinnon Andy Samberg are also in the film. Jay Roach of Austin Powers and Meet the Parents' Fame directs.
How was it, Josh?
I imagine most folks are going to go see this because they're interested in Coleman and Cumberbatch. That was our situation, and we weren't disappointed. They're brilliant together. I could have just taken a movie of only the two of them together, whether they're you know, deeply in love at the front or you know, deeply into test near the end of the film. The repartee here it's they're just zipping along and you're kind of you're dazzled, even when they're being horrible to each other.
One I would rather live with her than a wolf.
Did you see Wolf?
Yeah?
Well one he has arms. Well I saw a documentary Wants about a man without arms, and it looked like a difficult life, particularly for the partner.
So I like that he has arms.
Yeah, They're almost too good for this movie, because I don't remember much about the War of the Roses the Turner Kathleen Turner and Michael Douglas one, but I remember them pretty much being at each other other's throats the whole time. And a good part of The Roses is about the romance of these two characters, and there's more back and forth from you know, they disappoint each other,
they get back together. And Cumberbatch and Coleman are so good at these elements, these dramatic elements, that they make this more serious of a movie than I think Jay Roach possibly wanted it to be. So there is a little bit of tension there that isn't always worked out. But again, Cumberbatch and Coleman are so good that if you're a fan, even if you're just a fan of one of them, I'm probably more of a fan of Coleman than Cumberbatch.
You know, you'll still be glad that you saw The Roses.
Okay The Roses currently out in wide release again Lurker out limited. If you see either film have thoughts, you can email us feedback at film spotting dot net.
Quick note about our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at cinema's present via its past. Their new pairing is one that yet they had to do. I can't wait to hear this Spike Lee's highest flowest and of course nineteen sixty three's High and Low from as Spike put it in the credit to his movie The Master Filmmaker Akira Kurosawa. So yeah, they'll look at High and
Low first, then move on to Spike's film. New episodes of The Next Picture Show drop every Tuesday, and you can find them wherever you get your podcasts.
Vultures Movies. Fantasy League is back for season five. Josh Catch the Excitement. Sign Ups are open now through Thursday, September twenty fourth. I mean I am excited. I say that because I know you have no idea what I'm talking about. Here's the deal. You get to draft eight twenty twenty five movies. You earn points based on their
box office performance, critical reception, and awards. Season haul Now if that sounds complicated or you think it sounds simple, but you still don't really know how it all works. I don't know either. I just know that if it gets good reviews, if it wins some awards, and if it does well at the box office, whatever the formula is, then the movie did well and you'll do well. But I've played this two years in a row and I have done terribly, so clearly I don't know what I'm doing.
It's still fun, though, because we get to have our own film Spotters League, so we get to compete against each other and all the other film spotting listeners who want to be part of our league. But then we're competing against the wider movie loving public as well, and there are prizes involved. So Sam and I are part of it. We're part of the Creators League. And last year Sam, he didn't know what he was doing, but
guess what he finished tenth in the Creative Yeah. So, you know, if you've had any experience in fantasy sports, this might make sense to you. If you haven't, maybe not. But if you like movies, just just give it a try. They give you all the films that have come out this year and all the films that are coming out, and obviously if it's already come out, you can pick it, but you're not going to earn points for are how it did at the box office, because you already know
how it did at the box office. So you're taking a risk there if you go with that film, but you could still earn points based on the awards season Hall effectively, right, So that's part of your calculation. But the competition is obviously everyone who signs up, and you can compete in our Film Spotting Mini League. All you have to do is enter Film Spotters in the league name field when you sign up. We've got a lot
of people already there. It would be fun to have more involved, so we will put the fantasy league's sign up in the notes for this episode. Or you can go to movie Game dot vulture dot com, Movie Game dot vulture dot com, Josh. There are two deadlines to play. September twenty fourth, that's the last day to sign up before the contest starts. You can also sign up through the end of December. That catch though, of course, is that you won't be able to draft any films that
have already started earning points. I don't know why you would wait until December. I mean the deadline September twenty fourth. Sign up by then and have some fun.
All the best to you film spotters.
Good luck, But Josh says good luck, he is a no go.
My therapist has told me no activities that involve spreadsheets.
Next week. Okay, here's what your therapist should be warning you against ideas top fives. They are the brainchild of producers Sam.
I came around the house. I came around some house I know you did, and I think I.
Realized it didn't involve a spreadsheet. Well, I won't involve one.
I don't know about you.
Yeah, it might for me. That's the problem. I think I even tried to talk you into it, and now I'm the one who is struggling to actually fulfill it. This is the brainchild of producer Sam. He is calling this top five that's not really a top five, even though it has two fives in it. He's calling it five years movies. So what you have to do is select a five year period. This is a little misleading.
Here's how Sam has written it. You have to choose a five year period like say nineteen seventy one, to nineteen seventy five, and it's important to note not nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy five, because that would be his sixth year period.
Josh, now you laugh, but I need that.
I mean that seems likely that directed comment.
Josh, I think, hey, hey, I think it actually came up in the discord for film family members where this has been a trial run, and I was looking at that. I think a family member had a list that was seventy to seventy five, and so I would have done that as well. So I'm just glad we were getting this out of the way.
Now, Okay, So then it says, once you have selected your five year period from all possible five year periods in the history of film, you next need to pick five movies that were released during that five year period, and these are the movies you get madness and narrator rules activated. Now that all seems fine, but the instructions don't actually make sense because the goal here is to not randomly pick or even selectively pick a five year period and then pick the five films from that period.
The goal is to pick five films. It's actually reversed. You have to pick the films and then and then in reverse land on a five year period. Yeah, I mean I think that's the process. But someone instructions are confusing, Well, I got it. I mean that's because you know what the goal is. I'm just saying, if if you literally put this in front of someone who didn't know, it would be confusing. You're not. You're not starting with a
five year period. The goal is to come up with Basically, you're saying that you have to land on five films, like if you would be left with only five films. Ever, these are the five films that you you would only have these five films to watch for the rest of time, right, And the hook is is that they have to come from the same year period, right, Yeah.
Now they could two of them could come from the same year.
They could. It doesn't have to be all like consecutive years, right exactly. Okay, Yeah, okay, so now we're good.
We're on the same Okay.
So if you do understand the ground rules as I've explained them, not how Sam has explained them, then we would love for you to submit your picks and your reasoning feedback and film spotting dot net. We may share some of your picks along with ours next week. I think it's diabolical diabra it.
Yeah, well, I'll explain next week how I wrap my mind around this grant.
What arbitrary criterion did you come up with to get yourself through this? Josh?
Next week I will share.
So that you could you could spend as minimal amount of time worrying about this. But did you come up right?
It's the non spreadsheet strategy. Okay.
Also, next week I'm told that we are going to have a report. Michael Phillips will be back on the show. He is going to report on the Venice Film Festival. That should be wonderful. He'll talk to us about the top prize winner, the Golden Lion that went to Jim Jarmish's latest father, mother, sister, brother, Adam Driver, Kate Blanchett, Vicky Creps and Tom Waits in that one that scheduled to come to theaters in December. We'll hear all about what Michael Phillips has been up to for our current
show schedule and more. Visit Filmspotting dot Net Slash episodes. Honey, look, I can see daylight. We're gonna be okay.
I don't think that's daylight.
All right. It is time for deeply flawed Holm spotting poll results and a new poll. A couple of weeks ago, we asked you two is one and only one animation, Studio Pixar or Studio Gibilie. It wasn't daylight for Woody and the Gang and Toy Story three, and there was no daylight for Pixar in this poll either. Josh, how did it come out?
Studio Gibili took it, surprisingly to me, with sixty four percent of the vote Adam thirty seven percent going to Pixar. I may have guessed Gibilie would win, but I really would have thought it was going to be closer than this.
I'm going to correct the map there slightly. I guess that must be sixty four and thirty six percent. Yeah, work got a little better. Yeah, that work out a little better. But yes, Studio Ghibli handily won the poll. Daniel says, wait, I didn't realize we were talking incinerator here, much like the climax of Toy Story three. I'm going to have to change my mind at the last second and switch my vote from jib Lee to Pixar. Jibili has probably been more consistent. The Pixar movies were literally
made for me. I'm gen Z. My first movie I saw in the theater was a Bugs Life, and we had those early Pixar movies on constant replay. Not that we didn't also enjoy Jiblie Castle in the Sky as one of my earliest movie memories as well, But Pixar is just a little closer to the heart for me.
Fair enough, Daniel, vote with the heart. Here's Frederick from Norway. First of all, your latest poll question is just cruel. If given the choice between throwing the entire filmography of Pixar or Jiblie into the incinerator, I may just jump in myself. Bit of backstory. I'm a huge animation buff growing up in the nineties. My entry into the world of cinema was in large part through the Disney animated classics.
The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, and particularly The Lion King were my favorites, and they led me to seek out older classics like Snow White, Bambi, Sleeping Beauty and others. That, of course led to a devout following of Pixar. Their streak from finding Nemo through the Incredibles right atue, while the end up was such a sustained period of excellence that it should be enough to
make this poll question a no brainer. From two thousand and four to two thousand and seven, I completed a bachelor's degree in animation, and the Pixar versus jibilee was a frequent topic of debate. Things could get heated, and while it never came to fisticuff, some bad language was thrown around, and I usually cowered in the corner, not wanting to take sides while mommy and daddy were fighting. Since then, both studios have only added more masterpieces to
their resume. Pitting The wind Rises or The Boy and the Heron against Coco or Inside Out is equally impossible. All that being said, I eventually came down on the side of Pixar. My reasoning Pixar has a movie I could pop on regardless of the mood I'm in. I want to laugh Toy Story two, I want to cry up. I want some great action the Incredibles. I want to be amazed by visual flare and fantastic music.
Coco.
I want to watch something with my kids that may help them emotionally. Inside Out and perhaps the thing that finally tip the scale for me. Can you name any other studio that could successfully have the climax of their movie center around a fruit critic eating a stew and not only make it work, but also make it emotionally resonant. Man, I don't know if Frederick, Now you're making me second guess my choice.
Yeah, here's Bob Mchughe. I watched the most regarded works of each studio as a teenager and thought they were fine. It's only now watching them with fresh eyes as a parent, nearly two decades later, I've realized that I had it all wrong. I was too young to truly understand or appreciate them. Unfortunately, that reevaluation applies wholly to jibli but only for Pixar's golden age. The worst Jiblie films still
feel like an artist following their muse. The worst Pixar films barely feel like films at all, their craven products. When a studio's decisions about what stories they tell have more to do with branding and title contingency, what hope is there?
See?
And this is where I wish I was a Jibili completist as I am for Pixar. You know, I wonder are there titles that are a little that leave viewers wanting from the Jupilee catalog.
I don't know. Maybe listeners who are complete.
As one can tell us perhaps, But did they feel like craven products? That?
Yeah? That was well that too.
I mean, I'm just curious, you know, from their vast catalog, you know what sort of what sort of range there is? We also heard from Jeffrey Overstreet. You asked a complicated question, Here comes a complicated answer. Pixar's Golden Age was a remarkable run of all ages storytelling with groundbreaking animation. Those films are to cinema what books like Charlotte's Web and the Secret of Nim and The Phantom Tollbooth our, two children's literature works that reward the parents reading to their
children as much as they reward the children themselves. Having said that, Pixar films came to seem somewhat formulaic and predictable fairly quickly, I was always bracing for what would become a frenzied action, hysterical finale, probably involving a crazed
pursuit Miyazaki. However, isn't even playing the same sport Miyazaki is in Tolkien territory, world building such rich mythologies that I believe all kinds of other stories are unfolding just off screen while showing remarkable restraints, so that the stories and their finales emerge from characters in environments and less from an abvi's drive to provoke emotional responses and stir
things into a frantic finale. I encourage everyone to read the essay Towards a True Children's Cinema on My Neighbor Todoro by Lauren Wilford, published by bright Wall dark Room, and then, because it is so great, republished in a booklet that comes with a thirtieth anniversary Disney Blu Ray edition. Wilford writes more insightfully than anyone else I've read about
what makes Miyazaki's storytelling for children so distinctive. Almost all of Gible's films, and all of those by Miyazaki himself, are gifts that keep on giving, inviting us into new questions, mysteries, and revelations every single time. And I'm so grateful to the geniuses at Pixar who appreciated studio Ghiblie enough to invest in bringing that work to big screens in America. My life is so much richer for the work of both greats.
We are getting some very passionate, very thoughtful responses here. We have a couple more for you, This one from Mark Friedman a testament to the passionate subjectivity of our individual connections with art and entertainment. My slap on forehead response to this pool as Pixar no contest. Now I read these comments from my film spotting family siblings and find the exact opposite sentiments in favor of Jibili.
Let's close out with this from Andy Bukti. Sounds like we need an animation march madness to rightfully settle this, not just to determine champion, but to see who's better represented in the Sweet sixteen, Elite eight, et cetera. There could be some amazing and heart wrenching matchups, plus some bonus link later Tim Burton and Wes Anderson. Who wouldn't enjoy that? And that's that's been on the table for film spots on the table.
It's been discussed. I think I think that Sam and myself the selection committee might have I don't know if we said this out loud or not, we definitely thought it. We're not the most passionate generally animation fans compared to some of the folks I think, compared to you, Josh, and also compared to all the people who have written into this pole, So it wasn't maybe as inspiring for
us as a madness topic. But I think we also just worried about the number of titles and how much passion it would inspire in the largest number of participants. But I'm intrigued and seeing how passionate everybody was about this pole, I wonder if it is something that could be settled with madness. And so I'm going to throw this out to Andy and maybe some of the other commenters put together a bracket. Let me see what your bracket would look like. I will I will take a
look at it, Sam, and I will review it. We'll see if you can make your case. Okay. Feedback at filmspotting dot Net. Now a new deeply flawed film spotting pole, A new one. We're asking about sixties musicals because The Sound of Music is back in theaters for its sixtieth anniversary, and of course, Josh, literally everyone in the world has seen this movie literally, so you've you've seen it now literally everyone has seen this movie. Let's let's move on
to the options. The options are that Sam is giving you producer Sam Funny Girl and then I'll turn it over to you with Barbis streisand directed by William Wyler. That was part of last year's Wiler Marathon. What else are we letting them consider?
Mary Poppins, of course, the other Julie Andrews sixties musical I don't know, Adam, If you know this, Julie Andrews is in the Sound of Music. My Fair Lady is an option. That one with Audrey Hepburn and Rex Harrison directed by George Kuker. The Sound of Music is an option. Jacques Dimese The Umbrellas of Sherbour is another and our last choice West Side Story. Of course, you can also vote other If I don't know, you prefer demis The Young Girls of Rochefort or Best Picture winner Oliver the
Music Man, Bye Bye Birdie, Sweet Charity. That's one I'm unfamiliar with. I'm also unfamiliar with Doctor Doolittle, the nineteen sixty eight Best Picture nominee, But.
You don't need that worry yourself. I can skip that one.
Okay, No one's voting for doctor Doolittle. Well see, you know, I'm an Iowan, so of course the music Man is one I should be considering. And and I of course have seen the sound of music, so I am I am strongly considering that for my Okay, I'm strongly considering it from my pick, Josh, I know the the correct Sinophile answer, the one you're gonna say, the one Sam's gonna say, is the umbrellas of sure Boar. But I'm still in the bag for West Side Story, and it's my pick.
Okay, fair enough. I think you'll have plenty of people with you. Yeah, I just think you know, none of these are in the league of Shareboor. When we did our top ten of all time, our Sitan sound lists, I think in twenty twelve I did have it on that list. We did it again in twenty twenty two, and I think it got bummed. But I forget for what but to the you know, eleven to fifteen range, But it's it is an all timer to me, so an easy, easy film spotting poll this time around for me.
Okay, we would love to get your pick and possibly read your comments. You can participate in the poll at film spotting dot net. We will share the results and your feedback in a couple of weeks. Josh, that's our show.
You can find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, letterbox, and YouTube all at film Spotting. I'm at those places as well as Larsen on film. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the film Spotting Family at film Spotting family dot com. You can listen early and ad free. You'll get a weekly newsletter, monthly bonus episodes, and access to the entire
show archive. For show t shirts and other merch you can go to film spotting dot net slash shop.
In that film Spotting archive, you can find our conversations about of the Flower Moon for Martin Scorsese episode nine forty two plus. We did a little Scorsese ranked even though I'm sure we acknowledge that we were not at the time, nor are we both now. Scorsese ight no, and we've we've talked about doing a marathon of our Scorsese blind spots. We share some we don't share some others. It makes it a little tough, but I know, I know some listeners really hope we do that one, and I hope we do.
I'd love to do it at some point for sure.
Yeah. The Irishman was episode seven to fifty one. The Wolf of Wall Street Boy that was. That was a tense one episode four seventy four US.
That's for sure.
Shutter Island episode two ninety three, The Stones Concert film, Shine a Light episode two oh five, The Departed episode one twenty nine out in limited release. The Baltim Morons, directed by Jay Duplus in wide release Code three. Rain Wilson is a burned out paramedic trying to survive his last twenty four hours on the job while training a new recruit. Sam. Maybe just catering to you, Josh says, think bringing out the dead but funny.
Okay, I don't know if that's gonna sell me on it, but good try.
Also Downton Abbey, the Grand Finale. I know you cannot wait for that. The Long Walk, based on the nineteen seventy nine Stephen King novella Walk or Die, Simple Enough with Cooper Hoffman and Charlie Plummer. Good Cast, directed by Francis Lawrence of The Hunger Games, Catching Fire and mocking Jay. How about Spinal Tap two? The end continues the Sound of Music. Yes, sixtieth anniversary re release and Toy Story thirtieth anniversary re release. We are next week hoping to
have the Michael Phillips Fest update. I'm hoping I'll get to Spinal Tap two at minimum and be able to talk about that next week. And Yes, the Diabolical five years five movies. I'm somehow going to wrap my head around what that is before our next show.
Better start working on it right now. Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Desso and Sam van Holgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEAZ Chicago. More information is available at wbez dot org. For film Spotting, I'm Josh.
Larson and I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.
This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.
The burn.
Film Spotting is listeners supported. Join the film Spotting Family at film Spottingfamily dot com and get access to ad free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and for the first time, all to one place. The entire film spotting archive going back to two thousand and five. That's a film spotting family dot com
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