Judd Apatow • Films To Be Buried With with Brett Goldstein #188

bet my life on. But fair enough, Christen, if it's that important to you, fair enough, thank you, Thanks for joining in. Every week I'm a special guest over. I tell them they've died, then I get them to discuss their life through the films that meant the most of them. Previous guests include Barry Jenkins, Jamila Jamil, Kevin Smith, and even bed Pambles. But this week it is the brilliant writer, comedian, producer,

mobile and director Judd Apatow. Get over to Patreon at patreon dot com forward slash Brett Goldstein, where you get an extra twenty minutes of chat with Jadd We go Deep, we talk beginnings, ending, Stare's a Secret. You also get the whole episode uncut and ad free and does a video. Check it out over at patreon dot com. Forward Slash Brett Goldstein, Ted Lasso season two is available on Apple TV Plus, so you can watch that along with season one, and you can also watch Super Bob and Soulmates on

Amazon Prime. In most places, so Jadd Appertow, Jadd Appertow, for God's sakes, Jadd Appertow has been involved in one form or another impossibly, Like, I mean all of the things that you've loved in comedy in the last thirty years, I mean all of them. He's pretty much I mean all of them, do you know what I mean? Like who's involved in an Osanders show, in Freaks and Geeks, the forty year Old Virgin This is forty The Gary Shandling Diaries, the King of Staten Island, to Crashing to

Love all the things? I mean, there's too many things, do you know what I mean? It's too much for one head to take in. But he'd done them all. His work is legendry. It's a real privilege to sit and talk to him for this long on the podcast. We'd met doing a gig together at the Largo, and the wonderful Mark Flanagan told Judd that you have to do my podcast, and because Judd is a polite man and he was right in front of me, he said yes. So I was very lucky that he did. We had

a really great time. I think this is a lovely episode and I really think you're gonna like it. So that is it for now. I very much hope you enjoy episode one hundred and eighty eight of Films to be Buried With. Hello, and welcome to Films to be

Buried With. It is I Brett Goldstein, and I am joined today by a writer, a director, a producer, a documentarian, a book man, a stand up a Netflix special changer of the gamer, a lover, a fighter, a husband, a father, and one of the most influential men in American comedy. Please welcome to the show. Can't believe it's here. Could you believe it's here? He's really here? Please welcome. It's missing John Abatau, WHOA thank you made me feel nice?

I feel nice now. Well listen, I'm grateful you're doing this. Thank you for your time. I actually was making notes before this, and you're sort of one of the few people have had on where I'm kind of annoyed because there's so much in your life and career that I want to talk about, and I know there's a limited amount of time, and so it's literally like I'm having to pick, like what's the bit? What's the bit I

can ask you about? Because you've done it all and you've done significant things a number of times, I don't know how that feels for you from a moment by moment basis. Do you just feel like, oh, nothing's happened, I'm just just a guy in ahead. I feel like they have a love for the immemorial reel. Yeah, yes, I think that's That's how I look at it. Like

it's a good montage. It's a good montage, and so really that's all you care about in life, is like when they cut to the montage, do you have the goods? You know that heck of a month's time? Right? You go to the chess wax shot and then you go to the me bombing on evening in the improv. You know, there's all sorts of stuff. Fuck. Well, so you and

I met at Largo doing a gig. Was very lucky to do a gig with Pete Times and you were on and you would told me, I mean, can we can we talk about stand up for a bit, because yes, please, we're much interested in it. You have just written you're about to release a new book, Sicker in the Head. Yes, it's interviews with comedians, which is what I did when I was a kid, just when I wanted to meet comedians. It was just an excuse to get near them. It's

just to ask them how they do it. So the first book was maybe half and half interviews I did when I was fifteen and new ones, and this one is all new ones except John Candy from nineteen eighty four. The funny thing is for the new one, I did most of it during the pandemic, so I realized that everyone was home, so no one could say no to me because it's for charity. It goes to A two

six is free tutoring and literacy charity. So when you call someone and you know their home, you know their board, and it's for charity, they can't say no. And then the interviews were kind of intense and emotional because everyone was sitting home thinking about their lives and their journeys. So I was able to get people that normally I probably couldn't get, like Lin Manuel Miranda and Letterman. I had,

I mean, so many cool people. Mindy Kaling did it, and Nathan Fielder, who you don't hear talk a lot about how he does that, and Sasha Baron Cohen and just tons of people. So I'm psyched that it's out because the first one was the book I wish someone wrote when I was a kid. It didn't exist, And so I've seen with stick in Ahead a lot of people really went through it with a highlighter, and it helped them the way doing the interviews helped me. What

do you think it is? I was suddenly when I was reading it, I thank you for my I got a chance to read some of it, and it's brilliant like the other one. But I was suddenly occurred to me. I was like, why does this work so well in print when their interviews like what you know? You could equally, I guess release the audio as a package or whatever. But it's so satisfying to read these things. Do you have a theory on that? I don't actually know why

that is. I don't know, because someone was making fun of me. They're like, so, jed, this is like a podcast written down. But when I did him as a kid, I used to joke it's almost like I was trying to invent the podcast. Yeah, because it's what I wanted. I wanted a long form interview with Seinfeld if you love Seinfeld. In nineteen eighty three, there was no our interview with Jerry where he talked about how he did it. So I did it for the radio, and that's the

thing that I wanted. When you write it down, I think they work because I'm sharing my life in the conversation. It's not just me asking questions. And it's also one creative person asking another creative person how they do it, and we're both you know, some of it is inside baseball of comedy, but a lot of it is emotional and why do we want to be funny? Which I'm always fascinated by, you know what leads us to feel like this is how we want to process the world.

When we first spike, you would you were doing a bit of stand up, but you were doing more a sort of Q and I chat and you said to me, if it's like I had to share this. I asked you if you were planning a new special of what you were working on with stand up, and you said, I can't find you. Say if you don't mind, Yeah, well, I said, the pandemic made me confused about my stand up point of view because I'm not sure if I'm

sad or I'm angry or cynical or hopeful. I'm all over the place every day, so I can't figure out my stance, and I was kind of embarrassed to try to just do what I was in the middle of when the pandemic started, which is very domestic about my life and family and stories from show business, and it

all felt kind of stupid. I'm slowly trying to see if it's okay to, you know, to just just tell a funny story about someone that I bumped into, or it's something that's happening with my kids moving out of the house and empty nesting, but it all felt so unimportant. Now that's just in my head. I watch everyone else, like you and Pete Homes. They're crushing it. They're great.

No one is having the mental issue I'm having. But I'm about to host the Director's Guild Awards, so I have to do stand up at a monologue only in front of Spielberg, so there's no pressure to do stand up in front of Spike Lee and Steven Spielberg and Jane Campio. So now I have to get my shit together and I lot. Have you got? I have till the middle of March, God, And so I've been going out on the stage doing like a DJ Awards monologue

at comedy clubs. So I have to say to the God, I know you're not directors, and you may not understand or care about any of this, but I'm going to treat you all like you are two hundred directors. And it's gone pretty well so far. I'm gaining confidence by the day. Is that that date in the diary? Is that something that's like a low level of anxiety that is residing in your brain at all times? Or is it like that I'll be fine when I get to it. I think I would be very nervous if I hadn't

done it a couple of times. This is the third time I've done it, so I have a sense of the crowd, and I think they're just happy that the show doesn't suck, is the truth? You know? So for someone who's one of them to get up and talk about what it's like to direct, what it's like to direct during the pandemic, and all the weird things about, you know, having to communicate people to people with a mask on you. I mean, you've been through this. It's everything.

Adams Handler said to me. Shooting a movie during the pandemic basically removes every aspect of shooting that was fun. You can like kibbits with people and Chad, you know, you can't have dinner afterwards, you know when you made it. We made a movie called The Bubble that's gonna be on Netflix a spring, and it was about the horrors of this time and shooting a movie during the pandemic.

So in the movie, they're trying to shoot a dinosaur action movie and it's a bunch of people stuck in a house in a hotel in London and the and the studios pressuring them to finish this dinosaur movie. And it's about the isolation, how everyone loses their mind, and so we've all lived that. I just I lived it so much that I had to make a movie about it. You know, I was having such a meltdown. I'm like, I guess I should make a movie about what this

feels like right now? Yeah, And I ask with you, given that you you've sort of done the alder things. You've done the right in the stand up, the acting that I don't if you've done acting, have you? If I've done small things, I'm not very proud of my abilities in that arena. But when called upon, sometimes I will hurt someone's project by making an attempt. Okay, but you do all the things in you And also King of Staten Island, which I fucking love. That's a really

beautiful film. I guess my question is do you know what what the thing that takes you to the next thing is? Like? Is it an emotional connection to something, as in when you're like, I'm going to produce this thing, I'm going to direct this thing, I'm going to stand up this thing, Like like, do you know what the difference is for you that draws you in whatever role it is? Well, sometimes it's just a love for comedy and certain comedy challenges, like you know, hosting an award

show with all the celebrities. There is the fantasy of every kid who loves comedy. So I'm never going to get asked a host the Academy Awards, but I'll get like the Producer's Guild or the DJA, so it's like a mini version. And you know what, no one sees it. I don't let it even stream it anywhere, so I get to do that. But a lot of times I find after the fact, I realized I made something because I was trying to work something out in my own mind. So I was attracted to talk about marriage because I

was trying to figure something out. Or I wanted to talk about death and mortality and cancer, and so I wrote Funny People. But I'm not exactly sure the specifics of it till almost a few years later when I watch it and go, oh, that's what I was working out. I never realized till later that that's what I was working out. Even the King of Staten Island. And I'm attracted so many to so many aspects of what Pete's

story is. And I was very interested in firefighters and the idea of sacrifice, that there were people that weren't like me. They were in egomaniacs, look going to make people laugh and have a showbiz life. They're just willing to risk their lives to help other people. I thought, that doesn't seem like what I would ever write about, so that should be where I should go. I'm interested

in learning about that. But then later I realized that I was also dealing with divorce and step parents and feelings that I had as a kid, adjusting trying to get along with people, and that there were aspects that were very personal for me in terms of like, I guess this is a question of ego, I suppose, but there's a difference between you've done lots of things where you have helped comedians where they're front and stage where you've made them starts where you've and I assume you

have lots of joy in that, and then there's things where you do which is more about you specifically or more you've written directed it. You've again, are you happy in odidized positions or do you ever find yourself being jealous? Well, like, I want to be doing that. I want to be Pete. Yeah, I definitely certainly have a level deep in me that goes you never became Bill Murray, you know, I think that we all we all had that fantasy as a kid.

We'd watch Ghostbusters and want to be a Ghostbuster. Or whatever. And I certainly have had to accept that people who are on screen are magic. They have a chrisma. They why is bonno bono? You know, what's the difference between him and just some guy in a local band. And people have something that's indefinable and it's what draws us to people. And I always think, you know, if they have a ten of that, I might have a three,

and three is kind of entertaining. But it ain't's Jim Carrey, you know, it's you know, it's it's not Jerry Lewis. And and on some level, I think most people in the world have to accept that they're not Johnny Carson. They're not walking around, you know, handsome and talented and hilarious and everyone's fascinated by them. So yeah, there's definitely moments, But I also don't hunger for it enough and never

did to really try to make that happen. I was just as amused, or close to just as amused to write like a piece of stand up for somebody like Jim Carrey and watch him annihilate in a way I knew I would never have the courage to even attempt. You know, there's a fearlessness to some of these people, to Adam Sandler or Amy Schumer, where when you see them do it, you're like, wow, that's just a it's another level. It's like Michael Phelps, yeah, versus like a

high swimmer. Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean about things. But maybe one other thing I may ask is, um, you also made recently, well maybe not that recently, there's en Diaries of Gary Sounding, which I think is a truly ordinary piece of work, and if people visitingly have not seen it, I very much suggest you do. Like it's a very deep dive into your late friend, but it goes through his diaries. It's incredibly intimate, and it's very sad and very moving and real and honest and deep.

And I wondered for you making that and going through his diaries and stuff, how much of it was. Like there's a level of kind of intimacy to that film that I think is rare, where it almost feels too much. It almost feels like, I don't know if we should be seeing this, you know what I mean? If so personal? And I wonder how that was for you making it well, making it was a process of grieving, because you know, Gary was a mentor to me, and I think in a way, until he died, I didn't really realize how

much of an impact he had on me. It just felt like such a massive loss. And I was putting together these little short video montages for his memorial service, which I put together and then I quickly thought, oh, there's an amazing documentary in this footage, and it was hard to make. It took me months before I could really listen to his voice and listen to all the podcasts.

It all just made me so sad, and I had an idea of what I thought some of his life was about, and I didn't know if I was correct, because it kept feeling like it was about the loss of his brother when he was a little kid and how his family handled it, which was by not really talking about it, and it forced him to internalized so much and it led to a lot of issues in

relationships and trust issues. But it was a guess. And then right near the end of the process, I opened up a diary that I hadn't found before, and there was a letter to his brother that basically said everything that I thought it was, and he said just what profound effect that his brother had on him his entire life and he says, I'll see you on the other side.

It was a long letter. I put a little piece of it in the documentary and I felt like Gary wanted something like this to be out there, but he didn't hadn't figured it out in stand up and even in thinking about documentaries, Gary was trying to crack the code on this, and to me, it felt like finishing up a project that he had started. That this is what he would want you to take from his life. He would want you to learn from the messiness of

his life. You know, he leaned Buddhists, and you know there's a thing in Buddhism, you know, use everything for the path, right, use everything as a lesson. And although Gary was very private in life, I thought now that he's gone, he would want people's lives to get better as a result of him having led this life. Although

I could be wrong, he would be furious. We'll never know. Well, it feels like I really I watched that film and I thought, this, it feels like an act of love, like it's a it's a real it's a love letter to a man. But it was a very even handed. It isn't a well I don't know if this is the right word had geography. Yeah, it's not. It's not meant to just kiss his ass and say he's the greatest. Because Gary was wonderful and giving and also a terror

at times, and there were people he couldn't forgive. He was very hard on Bob Sagett. You know, they had a falling out when Gary sued their mutual manager, and Bob Saget made a joke to a newspaper where he said, I'm going to sue him too because I need a Porsche,

and that really hurt Gary's feelings in a way. He never made up with him the rest of his life because he thought that the joke made Gary look like he was just in it for the money and not for the justice of dealing with having been wronged by the manager. And Gary took it way too far. It was just way too far. Bob was in this terrible situation where he was typed with Gary and tight with his manager, and his manager was really there for him, and I'm sure Bob just nervously didn't know what to do.

And Gary, even as a Buddhist, even as a person who should think old Dharma's dreams and nothing is really that important. He held a grudge and that's what the movie's about. It's not saying that he's perfect. Sarah Silverman said, Gary needed Zen. He needed this. It wasn't that he was zen. He needed Zen. Yeah. Wow, yeah, absolutely fascinated. But we're doing another one now about George Carlin. I was really a two part documentary with my partner Michael Bonfiglio.

And and it's so different also because I wasn't friends with George Carlin. So is it easier is it easier to be more to just God? I was kind I couldn't capture it because I know him. But his daughter, Kelly Carlin has, you know, done a lot of interviews with us, and she's a big part of it and one of the producers. And we're just finishing it up and it's but it's very very different life, but an

equally deep dive. And then ultimately it's about almost the prophecy of his stand up everything that we're going through today. He had a bit about twenty years ago. Yeah, can I ask you one more thing? And then I promise we'll talk about films. I'm curious again, when you look at your career, you made a load of amazing stuff that wasn't necessarily successful. You had a period of sort of stuff that people love that didn't make money or was it considered yeah, not successful. There was a whole

period of that. Then you hit big. Basically, my question is the stuff you made when you weren't as successful, if I may, is really really good in your head? Was there any difference between what you did before and after let's call it big six says, or is it just luck and timing? It's hard to say. I mean, hopefully I'm getting better, but there are things you do when you're young because you don't know any better, and

that's why they're good. So we did The Cable Guy, and at the time, because it was a dark comedy, it was considered a disappointment. But yet on the Super Bowl there's a Cable Guy commercial. And we did that movie in nineteen ninety six, so you know, so it's twenty six years later that character is alive enough in

the culture that it's a Super Bowl commercial. And I remember Carry Shanding was friends with Warren Baty and Cable Guy wasn't doing well and you got really bad reviews, and we were surprised because we thought people would appreciate that we were taking all these risks creatively. And Warren Baty said to me, you don't know if a movie is good or means anything to people for ten years after it comes out. Then you'll know if they're still talking about it, then you'll know where it really landed.

Like Harold and Maude was a big bomb when it came out, and so the fact that twenty six years later people think it's funny enough that they wanted to talk about and the Blu ray comes out and there's anniversaries of the movie. So but still it's a lesson because you still and now you are making a movie.

We don't really even know how to make a movie, and so we're we're doing all sorts of crazy things that it's still debatable if they were the right choices or not too light, too dark, you know what are we saying? But I think that movie it was about losing your mind due to reliance on gadgets, you know, that is was the point, like I had literally and

he says, you know, let's kill the babysitter. That's the end of the movie, and him jumping to land on the satellite dish it doesn't work, he doesn't shut the satellite dish down, but there is that moment where everyone's TV goes out and then someone just picks up a book and reads a book. I beat you given. Kyle Gas from Acious Day is the one that reads the book. But that was, you know, the point of the movie.

And then Freaks and Geeks, you know, was Paul Fiegs's vision, and we all tried to make a contribution about what

happened to us in our childhoods in it. And for me, I always think, I don't know why that came out so well, That there was some strange kismid or you know, magic to that that we were just really passionate about it, you know, and obviously Paul had a very clear idea what he wanted to do, and I always thought, well, at least that happened, you know, and then anything I did after it, it's still it's still people still talk

about it. It's still yeah, and it's like it's like we didn't even know what we had never done an hour TV show. But afterwards, I always thought, I'm gonna treat every project like the thing after the great thing that worked, So like I'm allowed to take a big swing because Freaks and Geeks worked, so it's okay if I fail on the next one. And I've done that for every project since Freezing Geeks, because I thought, oh, well,

that's our that's our Sergeant Pepper. So at least we did one thing amazing in our whole careers, and everything else can be like we might do it again. But if we don't, it's actually okay because somehow that happened. And that's just a mental trick for me not to put too much pressure on myself. So I really allow myself to fail every time. I don't want to be safe.

That's the key, goad. I've forgotten to tell you something, and I feel like an idiot because we've been talking for about twenty minutes and I probably should have said it at the beginning. And I don't even know how you can take this. But I'll just say it and we'll I guess we'll deal with the phone out afterwards. I'm so sorry. I just have to say you've died. You're dead. Oh man, shit, I thought that would happen at some point. Yeah, what happened? How did you die?

I was walking down the stairs in the middle of the night because I realized I didn't bring the dogs in and a cat was on one of the steps, and when my foot hit the cat, I was like, oh, don't step on the cat. And then I just fell backwards and wiped out, and and that's how I died, trying not to hurt my cat. And I have four cats, like I don't need four. I could have three cats, but my instinct was to care about the cat more than me. I loved as a Honeywood screenwright set, You

died saving the cat. YEA thought about that? Is that is correct? That is a perfect death. Do you worry about death? Yes? I'm a very very bad on death. My parents weren't religious. They never talked about religion ever, and there was no discussion of the afterlife ever, which has left me with a gaping hole. And so I'm very very interested in Buddhism and the idea of accepting it, accepting everything, like there is no time. My body lives in time, but I do not live in time. But

then I never really fully believe it. But I'm trying. I'm trying to have something, but I generally I don't have a good enough answer that lets me sleep well at night. So what I'm also trying to do is accept my own death. So like when I'm on a plane and I take off, I don't like try to live. I always say the same thing, like that was a pretty good ride. I guess that was it, And then I get less nervous, and I think in life, that's what I'm trying to do, to just go like, okay,

that was enough. So you're treating everything like like you treat freaks and geeks like the next project. The next day. I had a pretty good day. So now it doesn't matter what happens if I die good exactly. That's the only way I think to feel a little bit better. You know. I really like that. That makes sense to me. And do you think anything happens when you die? You know ticknan Han who is the big Buddhist monk that a lot of people read his books like pieces every stuff.

He has all these amazing books and he just says, I'm not dead, like I'm in you, I'm in your thoughts every time you breathe, I'm there, I'm in the trees, I'm I'm the leaves. And I think that's a beautiful idea that doesn't work at all for me to feel better. Yeah, yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to be in a leaf. Okay, I get it, I get what that means. We're all energy, we're all changing and moving constantly, but I would like to be here. I don't want to

be in a cricket. I don't want to be like a piece of you know, some sort of living fungus in dirt. None of that feels good to me. So I don't know. But someone said to me once, you have to love the mystery, and so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to love the mystery because I think Pete Homes has an incredible bit about it. I'm paraphrasing and doing it wrong, but he basically says, people talk about like, how could there be a heaven?

And Pete said, well, how can there be this? And we're on a planet moving twenty thousand miles an hour and we don't fall off of it? Yeah, you know, like he has an amazing bit, which I think actually is true. Who who knows? Well, I know, I'm glad, you know, don't worry about it. It's actually I think you're gonna like it. There's a heaven, straight up heaven God, and it's it's filled with your favorite thing. What's your

favorite thing? I guess it's movies, right, I guess we're going to talk about movies, can baby, unless you want to change the format. I'm ready to get that. Okay. It's they're very excited to see you in heaven. They're all they're all big fans of all of your work, but they want to talk about your life. They want to talk about your life through film. And the first thing they ask you is, what's the first film you

remember seeing? John at the first film? I have a memory of watching what's a movie called The Phantom Tollbooth, and it was I believe it was like real people and at some point they went through like a toll booth and it became animated. Correct. I remember this film. I don't remember much more about it. I have located it at times where I could watch it, but have made some choice not to watch it because it's like so magical in my mind. But that that's my first

memory of a movie. I mean, you know, my family as a kid would buy the first like VHS tapes, so right when it was invented, we had the VCR, you know, mid seventies, and we only really had about like ten or twelve movies. You know. It really was like Godfather Part one and two, Annie Hall, French Connection, ten and The Pink Panther. I mean, so for a while there was like six and then eight and our whole life was those movies. So it was like a little kid, like a little kid, you know, ten eight,

I'm like watching The Godfather a lot. Yeah, and then all the Woody Allen movies. You know, we all feel bad talking about Woody Allen these days, but truly that was just the heavy rotation was all those movies at that time up through Manhattan. Who was what we would watch? Are You and ninety Child? I have an older brother and a younger sister, but behaved like an only child a fair amount, sat alone a fair amount. So so you always have found a tote. If at him on

TV is your first memory of it? No, it was in the the Yeah, and did you think I want I want in on this? I don't think I ever really thought I wanted in on movies. I wanted it on stand up. That's the strange part about me. I didn't really make a Movie's adjustment. Till I was in my twenties, I didn't pay any attention to movies as a kid, like I wonder what Len's Coppola is using on this. I didn't care at all. I liked movies, but I didn't think about being a director ever. I

didn't think about writing them ever. Really, I just thought I'd love to be in that world of the National Lampoon, people in this Saturday Night Live, people like stripes. I'd like somehow to be in that. I don't know how it happens, and I want to be friends with those people. I want to have a group like that. But I don't think I had a clear vision. And I wanted to be on stage like Jeff Altman or Jerry Seinfeld or Gilbert Godfrey. That was the dream, to be a

stand up comedian. Then later friends would get successful and suddenly they'd be like, should we try to write a movie? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I went to college for that. I think I did. I did eighteen months of screenwriting at USC. I think I know the formats. I remember I sold a movie pitch when I was very young, and then it seemed like, oh, they bought it. They

like it. I went downstairs to a bookstore and bought how to write a screenplay, and then the people I had pitched it too walked into the bookstore and I had to hide that I was by the book. You should have just signed it. I'm just signing this. I am. What's the what's the film that scared you? Demise? Do you like being scared? You've never made a horror I tried.

I've tried to write some horror. I don't know if it's my move because I really have made some attempts to produce and help with heart, I've never really assisted well. Bill Hayter was writing a horror movie before years before, a train Wreck, and it was a great idea. It really was funny. But I don't think I had the chops in the world of horror to give the appropriate guidance to get it to where it was shootable. But

I don't. I'm not like a big fan of horror because I don't love being in the state of terror. I will watch it. I love what Jordan Peel's doing, and I've seen the fair amount of it, and my kids like it, and they would they'll make me watch it. But it's not where I go to for fun. I actually like a scary movie more than a violent horror movie, so I'm not attracted to like chopping people up. But if there's like a movie in someone said, like it's really scary, like bab A Duke, I'm all about the

Baba Duke. That that kind of thing I like a lot. But the movie is a Kid. That scared me the most was probably The Fog, the original version of The Fog, and also when a stranger is calling, because that idea of like the call it's coming from inside the house, that freaked me out. But the movie The Fog had He's like, I don't remember. It was like pirates or something something coming through the fog into the town to

murder everyone. I'm sure I'm getting all the details wrong. Yeah. No, the FuG comes in and people like guys are in it like from the past. I don't know if they were pirates they might have been saying this, but yeah, they're not happy. They're not happy. But What a Stranger Calls was the first one where I was like, oh my god, Yeah, when a Stranger was amazing. I as amazing to string an hour and a half film out

of the concept he's in the house. Yes, the COVI is coming from the hats and it's like they'd make it last. It was that Carol Kane was in there. Yeah, right, And I also was really scared. Like the scariest kind of movie thing was in Woody Allen Movies. He talked about his fear of death and he had a little boy and he's just like, well, how if the if the if the universe expands, you know, why does it a break apart or you know, there was a lot of what's the point of living type jokes and there's

a little kid watching way too much of that. It planted seeds of terror inmate. That's interesting. Well about crying, what's the film that made you cry? As? Are you a crying? I love to cry. I'm a sucker. I'll cry during a commercial, I'll cry randomly during an you'll cry in life in public in like you're not shy about it, right, yeah, I'm okay. I mean I won't hold it in in the setting where it is appropriate.

I mean, Terms of endearment is just a cry fast you know, the scenes near the end with Debor Winger of the hospital and then at the very end Jack Nicholson is take care of the boy at the funeral, and then he walks into his house and he says, you want to see my pool. And there's something about it that just makes you all that this man who was all about himself, was so self involved cares about

this kid. And I remember I asked James Brooks about that scene and I said, it's just such a magical grace. Note at the end of this story, how did that happen? As that improvised And he said, you know, we were going to shoot the funeral scene. And I said to everyone on the movie, there is a Rothgo museum where we are, I know if they were in Dallas or in Texas, and you should go look at these paintings. And I guess he was trying to get people in the spirit of of mourning for the funeral and you

should go there to prepare. And he said, no one went but Nicholson. Wow. Yeah, and thus you get let me show you in my pool. But you know, ending a movie on a very small gesture of kindness, yeah, you know, I found very very powerful, and for some reason I cried during the last twenty minutes of pun

Drunk Love, A just ball like I can't stop crying. Yeah, you know, I connect to it so much, and you know, I lived without him Sandler, and when he was making the movie, he's like, I'm kind of doing an impression of you and my brother and I would watch the movie and I could see like what he's making fun of, which at core was like my insecurity that he observed when we lived together when we were in our early

twenties and I was just like terrified around women. And I there's a funny moment where he's like talking about he's on a date and he's trying to explain something funny a DJ said, and he's just bombing at the table, and I'm like, that's like my entire early twenties. So psychically, I felt so connected to the loneliness of that character that I would just lose my mind sobbing watching the end of it, because I was happy he found love,

even though he seems someone crazy and broken. It seemed well, I think, I don't know what it was on. Maybe it was on the Pete Homes podcast What was It with You? I don't know where James Brooks was talking about the end of As Good as It Gets and how that was just sort of made up, just improvised.

They were trying to find an ending they did. I think they had like three nights of just kind of playing around and then I think he just shouted kiss her from behind the camera and I think he said he'll do it better next time or whatever exactly that line is, and that's the line in the film, and he's it was an improvisation from Nicholson. Yeah. I think it was like a kind of genuine moment of the kids wasn't great, I'll do it better next time, and it was like that works for this. Yeah, it's like

the end of the graduate. Can I tell you something nice about that? Please? I was on the set one of those nights. N tell me. Owen Wilson, I believe, was a co produce on that movie. James Brooks was one of the producers of Bottle Rocket, and he he hired Owen to, you know, be someone that he turned to to be part of the creative discussion of the movie. I'm not sure exactly what ohen services were, but he was, you know, part of the creative team on that movie.

And I went to visit the set the night they were shooting at no way I was. I wasn't really wearing the headphones at the monitor with mister Brooks. I was very far away, just terrified, but I was there. And James Brooks is the person that you know, I've always learned so much from, you know, what he did in broadcast news and all, so much movies, intelligion, in the Simpsons and yeah, it's really the thing that I would try to be very aware of is the humanity

underneath the comedy. And he always talks about that you have a responsibility to the characters you create. I love thinking about it that way, Like they exist, then you have to do right by them. You can't be lazy. You have to come through God. I really like that. Tell me this, what is the film that you love? People don't really like it. It's not critically acclaimed, but you don't care what anyone says. You love it unconditionally, John Apata, What is it? Well, the movie that I

like that maybe not everyone loves. I remember when I was a kid, Caddyshack came out and it got two and a half stars in New York Newsday. It was the first time I saw a movie that I worship get a bad review and where I understood that, oh maybe reviewers aren't always correct. Yeah, and that was the abuse of meatballs, and Caddyshack was a big thing. There is a movie that makes me laugh so hard. Not to keep talking about Sandler, but Jack and Jill makes

me laugh so hard. I don't know where people think it's it stands in the cannon of Sandler. But I brought my kids to the premiere. I've never laughed harder. I was just wall to wall, losing my mind. And again, I think the culture caught up to it with the Pacino stuff and the doughnut commercial and all that um Doug Cacino. But my kids kept looking at me like what is wrong with you? And what was making me laugh the most was I could see in Adam's eyes

the glee he was getting from doing it. There was just a joy and playing the female part that it made me giggle so hard because every choice he made I would imagine him thinking of how to do it. So I was having a multi level just ridiculous laugh fast watching it. And also it's it's it's so proud to just go I'm gonna do anything to make you laugh. That is a perfect answer I found the same way about That's My Boy, which yes, and I was very badly received, and fuck it's funny. I mean we laughed.

I mean, say what you like, I was laughing. People don't realize how hard it is to just try to make people piss their pants to try to figure out what those levers are. That gets you to a place where you really laugh hard and you're shocked and you it just gets you in a mel Brooks riotous way. You know, that's like my favorite thing when people are just going, I'm going to try to destroy you right now, Like I'm so excited to see Jackass forever because I

know what's coming. I know I'm going to be so happy. What is the film that you used to love but you voiced it recently and now you don't like it? But that can be for personal reasons or whatever it might be. Author author go On Alpaccino as a writer, Diane Cannon, A lot of kids is like he has a lot of kids, al Paccino. They all have the

manner of David Krumholtz as a young actor. But as a kid, I kind of love that movie and I watched it again and I thought maybe as a kid, I like thought I was like being sophisticated with an adult movie, but maybe not the master work. Now I'm not saying it's not solid, but in my mind as a kid, I felt like I'm smart. I like author, author, it's a real time I get what's the film that

means the mice to you. Not necessarily the film itself is any good, but the experience you had around seeing the film that would always my kids special to you. You know, I went and saw Diner with my mom when I was a kid, and you know, my mom was no longer with us, and my parents got divorced, and you know, she moved away and she was working as a waitress at a diner in the Hampton's and she was very upper middle class and was really bummed that she had to do that right, and I was

proud of her. I thought it was cool, like, oh my god, you're just working hard to take care of yourself. And she was really bummed. But it was so nice and funny and people probably loved her as a waitress, but really the last person in the world you would think of who would have to support herself in that way. And she took me to see diner, like after she worked and she fell asleep the entire time, and I just remember watching Diner and my mom's just exhausted. I'm

trying to make a living. But it was for me, even though she had no gas in the tank, took me to dinner. How well be you at the time, I was probably fourteen or fifteen, so you stayed, we go, Dad in your mom maybe the ways that what happened, yeah, if I may ask, And that wasn't something that happened. So it was all very It was all very traumatic. But when I think of moments where my mom was really trying to be there for me, you know, that's

a thing. And then that became a movie that influenced me an enormous because Barry Levinson, you know, he's a great storyteller, and he told personal stories about his childhood, about his friendships, and I think that he's much more influential than people realize that all of this Tarantino speak and signfeld that a lot of the earliest incarnations of

of that was created by Barry Levinson. In Dinner, Yeah, you know, that's where we saw just people talking about a roast beef sandwich and Paul Reiser's you know, asking who's better mathis or Sinatra? And and he used comedians, you know, he had Paul Reiser and he let him improvise, which I was very influenced by, and I thought, wow,

Paul Riiser wrote most of his lines. That's incredible. But it made it so real to how people talk when they when they hang out, and think later movies and TV did that, but I can't really think of places that did it as well before Diner and It's got and it was see like it's not for nothing as in there's that incredible. I think it's one of like the all time great scenes with Daniel Sten and Ellen Barkin where he's saying, you never asked me about the

B sides of all these records. You never asked me about the B sides. And it's, you know, on the surface, it's a funny conversation about I care about stuff you don't care about, but really it's about their marriage. It's a it's an amazing bit of writing that like, you never asked me about the B sides. I don't give a shit. She's like, what if I care? I don't care about the B side? Yeah, And the sport the

sports test. Yeah, Steve Gudenberg makes his fiance take a test and he won't marry her if she doesn't know everything about sports. It's so good. I didn't know that about your your mum, And it's I mean, let's explained all the things that you've been asking the question of why do you do comedy. It's like, well, I'll get it exactly. Yeah, at all, at all sides coming together, what's the film that you must relate it to? I mean I related to Fast Times at Ridgemond High as

a kid. I liked seeing the hierarchy of the high school right when we did Facey Gigs, Pole fig. He never like looked at Welcome to the Dollhouse and Fast Times as influences, but to me, they were my influences. His partner and I always thought about, you know the kid who worked at the movie theater and his friend sold the concert tickets and and and he was the nerdy, the nerdy one. And I was like, I feel like that kid. I'm that kid at the movie theater. And

that was very meaningful to me. And that the people in it spoke the way we spoke, and Judge Ryanhold's character, Uh, it it felt like someone had captured you know what it felt like in the mid eighties to be in high school. And actually was written Cameron Crowe who went undercover in a high school and wrote a book about what happened and that then he wrote a screenplay of the book. But he really did it. And he's one of the people like interviewing Sicker in the Head and

I asked him a lot of questions about that. I'd like to know about that. All right, Okay, I remember read that sexually. Next, John Apoto is the one people he is the one people change in for what's the sexiest film You've ever seen? And is it by Derek Intent? I mean that was a movie that I don't remember any of because I love Dudley Moore. I just remember the kid thinking, I wish there was less adult stuff

in this and more silly Dudley more interesting. I didn't I didn't like Hunger for the Adults Blake Edwards aspects. I was like, I'd like Dudley Moore to be going nuts a little bit, but more Arthur type humor. Yeah, but as a kid, I think the sexiest movie is probably Body Heat. Yes, I mean that was the one where you're like, well, that that's that's as hot as a as a movie can get. I could not. I could not create scenes like that in a movie. I get uncomfortable when I have to have anyone be sexy

or sexual. I'm working through my own issues when I'm trying to present those types of scenes. But when I look at that, I think, well, that is a commitment. Lawrence Chasm, the great Lawrence Chasm, made that movie, and he I don't know. I can't think of another scene in anything that's like that. What else would you what else would even compare? I'll email your list. What is as a subcategory to this question troubling bone is worrying? Why don't I filmy found a rousing that you weren't

sure if you should. That's a very good question, you know. I might say Sharky's Machine. I might remember Sharky's a machine that the bird notes. Maybe it was Rachel Ward his Shark's Machine. Um. I mean there was this Canadian movie. I can't ever remember the name of it, but it was about a guy who was like an extra, you know,

his atmosphere in movies. I want to be actor wasn't doing well and he plays a cop in something, and he steals the uniform and starts like going around town acting like a cop and like being more and more aggressive about that, just like telling people to get out of the way, and you know, giving people tickets even though he's not a cop. And I remember there was some sort of romance in that movie with a Canadian

actress and I can't remember it. I can't remember what to look like, but I remember being fascinated by it. And someone's gonna message you and tell you what that movie is. It's Canadian. It's not the film Let Speak Cops. No, it's like a drama. It's like a Trump version of let speak hops from Like, it's not it's not Miami Place. It's not it's not Miami Blues. M Okay, it's a good mystery for us. John at what is objectively, objectively the greatest film of all time? It might not be

your favorite, but objectively it's the greatest. I mean, when I think of perfect movies, it's always like there's like two or three. I can't get it exactly right being there, Yeah, it's usually on the top of my list. I feel like it's a miracle of a movie. It holds up. I mean, I think all through the Trump administration people referenced it, and it's a year Ze Kazinski novel that

it was based on. I think my grandfather who did the development for John Frank and Iimer the director when he was like in his sixties or late fifties, and there was a period with it. I think they claimed that they they owned that book and then they lost the option to it. But Peter Sala's couldn't be funny, or the scenes with him and Shirley McClain, the scene where they're like watching television and he's trying to copy what's on the TV and she thinks like they're having

a sexual moment. I mean, it's the greatest comic scept pieces of all time and it has a much deeper meaning. And then I always think about Cuckoo's Nest in terms of the I mean terms been deermon and broadcast news are always right up there. And I always think about the movie in additions like Godfather movies and Good Fellas. There's a movie called a Prophet. Yeah, that movie that I just when it ended, I'm like, he can't do

it better than that. You can't as good as it is, you know, So which is your on sick come to a head? I'd say, being being there, let's say, right then, what's the film you could well have? What's the mice Iver and Iver again? The movie that I've seen more than any other movie. That's a good question. What if I watched over and over again? I want to watch

over and over again? Maybe oddly Groundhog Day another perfect movie. Yeah, you know, we made a movie called Year One with Harold Ramos, and we were all excited to just be around him because he loved to answer questions. He would tell you all the stories where he happened. He was the nicest man in the greatest hang. But that is as good as a comedy film, yeah can get and you can watch it over and over again and always find new things about it. Yeah. I have a question

for you. When you're making films and I think I read something, correct me if I'm wrong. I think this is what you said in an into and I really liked it. Is that someone was saying, oh, your films are say long? Why they say long? Cut him down? And you said something like, because I like all the bits, I don't want to cut it down. Is that true.

Is that right? Well, I you know, there's usually a moment in the movie, in the editing where you realize as a whole, this might play better at an hour and forty eight, but the sixteen minutes I would have to cut to get you there is the thing that makes the movie really good. Yeah. And so I feel ahead of my time in not caring about time, because people will sit down and watch like seven episodes of Yellow Jackets in a row, So why won't you watch

a two hour and seven or eleven minute movie. And you know a lot of people will be like, oh, it's you know, comedies need to be ninety minutes. So comedy is worth less of your time than a spaceship or a superhero. I remember someone said to me, I think it was James Brooks who he said, you know, when your movie is a little bit longer, you're saying these people are worth your time. That's very nice. And that's how I like to look at it. And I have watched movies later and go, god, I wish I

found that ten minutes. And sometimes sometimes they asked me to cut it down because I have to because it's gonna be on ABC or something, and They're like, well, you only have this much time, so you need to cut twelve minutes for it to fit on network television, and I do, and everyone's while I'm like, yeah, it

might be better that way. When you're when you're making, I can't remember this from How often do you think when you're in the edit, did you watch the film, Let's say, let's take this is forty, which I love, by the way, how often do you think you watch that film from beginning to end and edit, rather than working on bits where you just sat back watched it as a How do you have any estimate? You have to be careful because your brain can only handle so

many full watches. So I'll fix hunks of it for months and months, having maybe watched a long two hours and forty minutes assemble at the beginning of the process, sense once and then I won't watch it all together. I'll just watch, you know, they cut into like six reels, and then at the preview, when I watch it with

an audience, that's when I watch it. I rarely watch the whole thing by myself without an audience, But then when I'm with the audience, I really like rest up, I get focused and I try to see if I can have the experience of the audience, which is hard because you lose all the mystery and the tension of I wonder what will happen. So in a way, as a filmmaker, you never get to watch it the way another person feels when they watch it, So you almost

can't edit your movie correctly. You're trying to edit your movie based on math, based on story dynamics that you're being very intellectual about. But when someone watches a movie, you know, sometimes you think, oh, I wonder if they're gonna be worried if they're gonna kiss, But really what they're worrying about is he's gonna murder her. Like you don't know what people think when they don't know what's coming.

And sometimes you'll test the movie and they'll be like, I really he was gonna kill her, And you're like, I didn't intend that at all. I thought he just liked her. And that's something that you're you have to have a conversation with the crowd to say, where was it boring, where's it slowing down? How are you experiencing this? I'm actually exciting because there's a lot of my movies I've been watched in ten years or more, and I can begin to try to watch them to see if

I can get a feel for them as an audience member. Amazing, JAPTA. What's the I don't like to be negative for too long. What's the worst FILMILY ever seen? I think the worst movie I've ever seen was a kids movie. I used to have to watch all the kids movies when my daughters were younger, and there was a movie called Bratts b R A t Z. And every every second of it was like being in a dentist chair. It just time was moving backwards, and it all felt like an excuse to make a toy into a movie. It felt

like a like a money play. And I could be wrong, but on that predict particular day, I suffered more than I can remember ever suffering in a movie. And did they love it? Did your kids love it? I don't even think they loved it. You know, a lot of times when you take your kids to movies, it's just a Sunday time killer, Like your kids are bored and you're like, Okay, an hour and a half of this will be this movie, then we'll go get Chinese food. And so you watched him seeing a lot of movies

that you wouldn't want to see. But it is sad because now that my kids are, you know, nineteen and twenty five, I don't go to kids movies anymore. I don't watch them. And I did. I watched him for twenty years everything, every single kids movie they came out, and like, I was home the other day, I'm like, shit, I watched this cartoon and I didn't, And I'm like, you should just started watching kids movies alone. Is that weird and creepy to just sit by yourself watching those movies?

I don't know. You'd have to watch my neighbor if she thinks he's weird and creepy. I do. You're in comedy, you're a comedian. You've made some of the great comedies. What film made you laugh the most? Hut up, it's happen. I mean the movie that makes me laugh more than any movie. I mean, there's a couple of experiences. I remember watching Young Frankenstein in a theater at a revival house twenty years ago, having never seen it, with a crowd and the place just losing their shit. Walter Wall

just the laughs were crazy, and that was fun. The biggest laughs I remember in a theater. One was Airplane when it came out, like the Weekend came out, so I saw very young man and it was a barn burner. It just it made everyone so happy and people laughed so hard. And the other one I remember with the two others, something about Mary. I went to see with Ben Stiller on opening night, just in the Hiding in the Back in Santa Monica, and that was so fun.

It's so fun to see it with Ben. I was just so happy for Ben and it was such It inspired so many movies and so many of our movies. But the one that was the craziest was we went to see borat the first time. Sasha showed his friends to get thoughts and notes, so it was like twenty five minutes longer than it ultimately was. They were set pieces in it that he cut out. It was a whole scene like shooting a porno that was just so crazy and troubling. That may have hit some DVD, actually

I don't know. And the scene where he has the naked fight, there was nothing covering the ball, so it was way longer and make way more aggressive about like just the guy's balls and penis on Sasha's face, just rubbing on his face, and you know, it was true fall out of your seat, you know, spit up whatever you're eating or drinking moment. And then when it ended, George Meyer from The Simpsons was there. Wow, and he just said, I feel like I just listened to Sergeant

Pepper for the first time. It's my second Sergeant Pepper ever. Yeah, and I thought, well, that's the nicest compliment you ever can get. Like we knew the forum had been reinvented. Yeah, and that was exciting. That's a perfect answer. Okay, John, you've been amazing. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you

for giving me your time. However, when you were walking down the stairs late at night and one of your four cats, you're about to tread in it, and you thought, in perfect screenwriting structure, save the cat, so you moved your foot, and in doing so, you fell down the steps over and over and over again. And it turns out you've got five flights of steps because you live in a very big house, and you just kept running

down it like old fastened stunt man. But you didn't quite have the way to land in a way that wouldn't hurt yourself, and you broke ninety three percent of all the bones in your body. At the bottom of the stairs, you were dead, land on your head, dead, and the cat padded over walked over your body when it had some milk. No idea what had gone on. I'm walking past. I've got a coffin with me. You know what I'm like, I pop in on the upper tails.

I'm like as everyone as everyone doing that since anyone seen Judd, I just wanted to to say a loo and they went, oh, I think he's having a nap at the bottom of the stairs. I guys the bottom says I go, I don't think that's a nap. You're in a fucking state. You're all over the shop, so I have to get you. But you're all in bits, like your limbs are all twists and stuff. I have to break off bits to try and get you in this coffin. I have to end up chopping you up.

I get I get the whole family involved. So can I bring some knives, we chop you all up. Pop you all in the coffin, absolutely jammed in there. There's more of you than I was expecting. The coffin is full. There is only really enough room in this coffin for me to slide one DVD into the side with you for you to take across to the other side. And on the other side, it's movie night. Every night. One night, it's your movie night. What film are you taking to

show people in heaven when it's your movie night? Dang, that's a that's a thing. I'm gonna say. It's just what popped into my head. Animal House. Wow. Okay, you know there's comedy, there's music, there's a lot of things. Because you know, if that's the only one does have a lot of stuff going on in it and no one else has brought it, you'll be welcome in heaven. People are gonna have a body. John aft Out, you've

been fucking brilliant. Is there anything you would like to tell people to watch listen out for read excess Well. Sticker in the Head is my book for charity for eight to six that is coming out and you can buy it now on online or at a real books better to get at a real bookstore, yes, but you could get an advanced copy now that comes out in March, and then the Bubble comes out the spring. On Netflix and then in May the two part George Carlin documentary,

and then I disappear for about two three years. So I'm going to disappear. I realized I did too much over the last few years, and now I got it. I just shut it down. Nothing but poems that I don't show anyone that I burn after I write them. Jodpt, thank you so much for this. I really appreciate you. I hope you have a lovely death. Good day to you, sir, you as well. Thank you. That's fun. So that was

episode one hundred and eighty eight. Head over to patreon dot com Forward Slash Break Goals team for the extra twenty minutes of chat, secrets and videos with jad guys at Apple Podcasts put down five Stars, but don't talk about a podcast, talk about the film that means the most to you and why that's what I want to read. I love to read that side is my name and Morine and we really appreciate it. Thank you and thank you for listening. Thank you so much to jadd for

giving me all that time. Thanks to Scrubious pipping the distraction pieces of network. Thanks to Buddy Peace for producing it. Thanks to ACAS for hosting it thanks to Adding Richardson for the graphics and Lisa allowed them for the photography. Come and join me next week for another brilliant guest. I'm not going to tell you it is, but I can promise you it's another banger. I hope everyone is well.

That is it for now. In the meantime, have a lovely week and please, now more than ever, be excellent to each other. Se