Barry Jenkins • Films To Be Buried With with Brett Goldstein #160

that's right, John Keats. I can't disagree with that fair play. Every week I invite a special guest over. I tell them they've died. Then I get them to discuss their life through the films that meant the most of them. Previous guests include Sharon Stone, Kevin Smith, James a Caster, and even Led Crambells. But this week it's the unbelievable

Oscar winning filmmaker mister Barry Jenkins. Head over to the Patreon at patreon dot com forward slash Breck gold scene, where you'll get an extra fifteen minutes to chat with Barry. We talk in depth about beginnings and endings. You also get an incredible secret from him. You also get the whole thing uncut and as a video ad free. Check it out over at patreon dot com. Forward slash Breck gold Scene TV missions. Ted Lasso season two has started to get caught up in all the episodes on Apple

tv Plus. Also check out Soulmate season one on Amazon Prime. One will make you happy, the other one will make you think. You know, thinky. So if you ever listened to this podcast before, you will know what an absolutely massive fan of Barry Jenkins I am. All you need to do is listen to the Movies of the Year special with Nis Kumar, where we mostly talk about how

much we love if Bill Street could talk. So this is one of the biggest deals for me that Barry was interested in doing the podcast, and I think it is pretty clear for the next hour that basically I'm just trying to restrain myself from constantly saying I love you. But I think I managed to hold it in for at least ten percent of the episode, so you know, I think it works fine. Anyway, he was amazing. We recorded this on zoom. I love this conversation. He was brilliant.

I hope you love it too. So that is it for now. I very much hope you enjoy Episode one hundred and sixty of Films to be Buried With. Hello, and welcome to Films to be Buried With. It is I Brett Goldstein, and I am joined today by a writer, a producer, a director, an Academy Award winner, a hero, a legend. I cannot believe he's actually doing this podcast. Can anyone believe it? Please? Welcome to the show. The incredible, the amazing, the brilliant. Is this the Barry Jakins. Thank you, Brod,

Thank you man. It's a pleasure to be here. Barry. I can't believe you're here. You may never have listened to my podcast, but if you had, you might not have wanted to do it because I've spent a lot of time talking about your films in a loving way. What I do need to know before we start is what your tolerance is for being told how brilliant you are, because I'll limit it depending on how much you can take. Very low, very low, very low. It makes you uncomfortable, Yeah, yeah,

it does. It does. It does because because one I don't I don't believe it. You know, I don't believe it. I don't buy it also in a very a a Roy Kent kind of universe. It's like the last thing you ever want to hear. Yea, yeah, I'm not that into it. Okay, I'm going to hold back a little. I'll try, but what I will say is I've recently completed the Underground Railroad. Congratulations, thank you man, thank you. What a phenomenal piece of work. And I did want to ask you if I may just a little bit

about it, because it's the last one. Is like, it's fucking incredible and it's an incredible achievement. Aside from everything, just the size and scale of it is beautiful. It's harrowing, it's it's just an incredible piece of work. But genuinely, I'm curious for you, Like it's a harrowing watch. It's a harrowing it's a different hard it's a hard watch.

And to have lived in that space and to make it, which I'm assuming took a year minimum, if not more, the whole thing for you exactly how is your brain during the making of that, as in do you switch it off at the end of the day, where you stuck in that dark space for a very sustained period of time, like How how do you exist making something like that for such a long time. Yeah, it was. It was interesting. I kind of I couldn't turn it off.

There was just no way. I think, when you're doing something at that scale, there's just there's always a problem that needs to be solved, or always a question that needs to be answered. So my brain just had to constantly, constantly be going at the constantly be in that space. And you know, one of the things I'm really proud of stuff with what's happening in my career right now is I'm still working with my friends, you know, with people I've known since I was in an undergradd since

I was in college. And I think that helps, man, I think it helps a lot because it kind of takes you know, and you guys are working at a really high level right now, so I'm sure there's a lot of noise in the system. As they say, you know, when you guys weren't back to do season two and a lot of that stuff. It can be distracting the thing you're doing. The actually the thing you're creating is a distraction to a certain degree. It kind of it separates you from your yourself and your real life. And

then you got all those other shit surrounding it. But I think because of that, it's really helpful to always have my friends with me, because I'm never alone even when I'm like stuck inside this thing. And this thing was like and it was massive. There was just nowhere to hide from it and there was yeah, and then there was no way to really turn it off. If you did turn it off, something was going to falter

or fail. And so no, man, I was just in that headspace the entire time, but I wasn't there alone, and I think that made the difference. I Mean, it cost is incredible, it's so well cussed, but again, just the scenes that are being enacted often traumatic. And I wondered again in terms of the length of time you were doing this for whether there was a lot of laughter on set, whether you know, between takes it with light, or whether you actually everyone was in a kind of

mood that sustained, Like how did that work? Was it different? No? There were certain days. I mean, and the first episode, the scene where the character Big Anthony is burned alive essentially that day. Yeah, you could hear a pin drop on set, Yeah, you could hear a pin drop. It was just, you know, everybody was. You know, there's a guy in the show named Ben Walker who plays the plantation on in the first episode. His wife is English, so he actually lives in London, even though he's from

the state of Georgia. He's from that episode t place, and so I remember one day we were beginning that day's work. It was like maybe noon in Georgia, which meant it was maybe like eight or nine pm in London, and I was about to call action and he took his phone out and one of the pas was like, oh, I'm sorry, mister Walker, we're about to start working. You can't check your phone up. He goes, oh, I'm sorry, man, it's like nine o'clock. I just wanted to call my

kids and tuck them in. And the PA's like, no, I'm sorry, mister jenis is ready to go. I walked over. I said, let that man get on his phone and call his kids, because he wants to remind himself that he is him and the character as the character, it was like, yes, Ben, call your damn kids, tucked them in and thedn't come back and do these horrible things. And so, yeah, there were days where it was really intense, but there was so much laughter on this set. There

really was. Tucso, who plays our lead is an absolute clown, and then Yeah, and then Joel and the kid who plays home or Chase Stillon. They were just like Laurel and Hardy. I mean it was just like a laugh a minute. So we didn't have a good time. I'm delighted to hear that. My last question because you're probably bold of talking about this. I know you've been talking about it a lot, but you're obviously in a position you have loads of projects. You could be doing loads

of things. I know that having six projects in development and then one guys. In the case of Underground, particularly because it was such a massive undertaking, is there a particular reason that you were like, I'm doing this now or was it just logistically lined up it was happening then? No, no, no, this was everything had to sort of pivot around this. This was like, you know, the big ash truck on the highway taking up all the space and the other traffic has to move at at speed. This was always

the main thing. Part of that was, you know, coming off of the win for the best picture with Moonlight, I knew I had probably the most cultural or industry capital I'm ever going to have. And I knew I need a certain amount of resources to pull the show off, and so it felt like this is how I'm going to pay for it, all the game I've made, you know,

from this very unexpected success and moonlight. You know, I think images set around people like my ancestors, images set around the condition of American slavery, there's a certain business prospect of those images, which means there's certain financial capital that's given, certain budgets that are allowed for works on the subject matter. And this felt like I'm never gonna have this opportunity again. I'm like, I'm the hottest I'm ever gonna be, you know, So how do I catch

on this chip? Do like go off and make some blockbuster franchise so I can put more money in my pockets? Or is this an opportunity for me to really take a big swing and try to capture the essence of these people who I owe so many things too? Also, I'm forty two, Well, I'm forty one and I'm turning to forty two soon. This ship was hard, right, this was hard, But believe it is. I can see that I mean, I mean maybe maybe someday, you know, I know you had you had Russell Russell rus dabies on

the show, and he sells, you know pretty. I mean maybe when I when I think he's like fifty five right now, hopefully I'll be a sprite, you know, and I'll have as much energy as he does at fifty five. But I thought, you know what, I don't know that I'm gonna be able to do something like this at that age. I'm not gonna want to. You know, I've got the energy. I've got to stam on our right now. I should do it. And so that was why. And did you did you direct it as as one giant

movie split into ten or was it blocked out? No? No, no, no, we did it. We did it in episodes, and we kind of had to like a film. Yeah, exactly. There reached like a film. And even more logistically, you know, she gets to a new state. There's a whole different cast, a whole different set of locations. You really are resetting, and it was good for me to compartmental lots. I think good for the cast, you know, especially like someone

like Tuso. It's really compartmentalized. It's like Okay, I'm in this deep dark place and now in two weeks I'll be in a different place. It might be dark, but it won't be as dark. It's funny you talk about rest of the day. If she's your doctor, who she moves to a different every episode, Newcast, New World exactly in it and it just it just refreshes you there, it just refreshes you. Well. It's truly incredible. And I have nothing but respect for you. But I have forgotten

to tell you something. Yes, and I should have. I should have said it. I should have said it early. Actually, and I made it. I did make a note to say it when we met. But why are you thinking about it? Let me ask you? So? How did how did? How did tell us? All happened for you? Man? I mean the whole thing. You know, There's there's a thing I'd say to people when people ask like how to how to get into business and everything, and my answer is always just fucking make your own stuff. No one's

ever the magical phone is never going to ring. And keep making stuff, keep making stuff, keep making stuff, keep making stuff, and hopefully one day someone will see your stuff. And if you've been doing it long enough, they'll look back, You'll go I've got loads of stuff to look at because no one was looking for years. And then having said all that, I did get a magical phone call. But I had, I had. I'd done a pilot for

Bill Lawrence before and and we'd stayed in touch. And then two years later he called me literally out of the blue and said, I'm working on this show. I think you should. You should be in the writer's room. And I then had a FaceTime with Jason to see if we'd connect and sort of fell in love. And then two days later I was on a plane to l a, Oh we should. It was madness. Yeah, I didn't realize you've been in the room on the show.

Yeah yeah. So then the other part of it is I wasn't meant to be in it, and then we're writing it and I realized I felt, you know, without being a dickhead, I felt like a cooling. I meant to I need to play Roy ke I really really get it. But I also knew no one was thinking of me for Roy Kemp because I've got a Muppets poster and I'm usually headed. Up to that point, I've been playing sort of bumbly sort of sweet English guys.

And so I made a tape on the last night the writter room because I didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable, and I filmed five scenes and when I left, I emailed it and I said, look, I've had a lovely time. I love the show and thinking for Age's I could play Roy. But I also know no one's thinking to me for this. If this tape is ship, pretend you never got it, and I will never ask you if you got this email. But if you like it, here's the tape. And then thankfully they couldn't be bothered to

look any further. Wow that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, so that's a real, real magic that is. Yeah. I don't know how often that's happening, but I know the woman who's the leader Brother for Falls that had the same experience. She was in the writer's room, really Brother for Falls, and I think everyone in this case everyone realized eventually, I think you're this person that we're all sitting and now she's the star and uh and in the room. Very cool. Yeah, no, it's it's really Yeah, it's a

fucking miracle. The whole thing, the thing speaking of shocking things. What I forgot to tell you is you've died. You're dead. Okay, Okay, do that well? Ship builds good. It's a lot more animate than I thought it would be. Okay, this is good. How did you die? You get to choose how you died? How did you die? You know, it's interesting. I'm terrified. I was not expecting this question. They did not send me this question. You know. I'm I'm terrified of a flying,

terrified of flying. But I do it all the time, I mean, doing what we do, you know, we just do it all the time. And maybe this this is a terrible thing to say out loud, but I've always imagined that I'm going to die and some kind of like some kind of aviation catastrophe, you know, but I've imagined it, and I even when when I was in college,

I wrote a short story about it. But being thrown out of the window of this plane and just almost like the things they carried, you know, and just having this really beautiful experience of just floating through the air to my ultimate demise, but accepting it, accepting it, and then just really really drinking in the experience for what it is, very morbid but but but now I love this. I mean, I appreciate you. You've you've not had the books. We talk about death a lot. It's very mobid. It's fine,

You're in the right place. My question is who threw you off the plane? Um? So in this short story, I had a very awesome apartment, very high up in the sky and one of the world's tallest buildings, and a small commuter plane just and just sort of swept me out. That was That was that one. I know, very strange, but you know, but it makes sense. You and I are a very close in age. You know. I was sitting in a classroom where not eleven happened, and so the idea of planes and buildings is something

that was just very jarringly seared into everyone's consciousness. I think that's where I woke up one morning. I just had this image in my head of me being thrown out of a building, you know by this, the small plane that no business being at that elevation. That that's that is a hard called death. But as you fell, you were acceptance and it was beautiful, gorgeous. I mean, oh my god. I don't remember my dreams very often, but that one I woke up and I was like,

I need to write this down. So you were sucked out of a building and then fell beautifully. Just just float it, man, I mean, just float it. You know you do you worry about death a lot? Is it something you think about? I do want to, don't? I do want to don't. I think the inevitability of death is something that I've gotten quite clear on, especially in

the last like five years. But yeah, especially working on the show too, you know, doing all this research or about my answers, just all these black people who were brought against their will to the Americas, and death was just it was it was almost like you know, it was like breathing. It was like tea, it was like coffee, it was like breakfast. It was an inevitability, and it was very, very, very rampant. And so yeah, I had to go to that place. And so I've been thinking

a lot about it over the last few years. And then just with everything that's happening in the world, I mean, the headlines over the last three days, I've just been terrifying. Yeah, death is a reality. Having sort of thought about it a lot in the last few years, has your have you changed your feelings about it, like do you feel less worried or not less worried? Because I love life, man, I love life, I do. I love the world. I

think that what's happening here is so impossible. I think when you really take a moment to step back and look at anything, really, whether it's a human face, whether it's the flower. I know I'm sounding very hippy dippy right now. There's just there's just so much impossible, ravishing beauty in the every day and the completely mundane, and so in that way, it's not that I don't want to live. And yet I also think I'm not afraid

of death because it's such an inevitability. There's a there's a writer I love who's giving a talk, this woman named Alice, Alice Sola Kim, and I don't know if she was quoting the poet or something, but she said, you know, right, like you're dead, right, like your parents

are dead, right, Like everyone's dead. And that's how I go about my work now, you know, I just assume, because I'm just talking about the spear of flying, every time I get on a plane, this is really dark, I assume it'll be the last time I get every time I get on a flight, I think this is going to be the one every single time. Breath. That's true, every single time. It's It's why if I fly, anybody listens to this. If I fly somewhere to meet you, I want you to know that in my head, I

am risking life and live to get to you. That's what I think. Yeah, if you're flying to meet someone, it means something exactly. But because of that, I also think that when I'm making choices about it, I'm going to direct this, so I'm going to write that, or even I'm going to read this, I'm going to watch that. I gotta meet it, man, I've gotta meet it. You know. It's why you know I want to do the podcast, because I mean, I know, but now in the writers room,

it is kind of definitely your thing. Man. I just love what y'all doing on that show. I just, I mean, I just absolutely my partner as a filmmaker, She'll tell you we'll be watching an episode. I do this, I'll pause because like how much time is left that I'll pause again. It's like I got six more minutes, all right, cool. Then I'll pause again. I've got five more minutes. Man, I just love it because that is worth my time. Man.

That blazes my mind. That blaws my mind. Listen, I'm not allowed to tell you I bringing you about for an hour, but I've said it a lot. You are not, you are not. I really appreciate that's very exciting to hear. What do you think happens when you die? Do you do you think there's enough to life or anything like that? I don't know. I've been trying to, you know, in my spare time, I try to read like really random shit.

I love why every now and my followers on Twitter are like, why does Barry Jenkins know so much about these random ass things? Obsessed? You know, I'm terrified of aviation, so I tried to learn everything I could about it. I'm fascinated by death and life in general, and so I've been just doing random research on those things as well. What do I think happens? I'm not sure, bro, I'm not sure, but I think something happens, right, Yeah, Yeah, I think something has to the universe is so mysterious.

I mean it is crazy mysterious, Brett. I mean it's like insane, some of this shit that we're only now discovering it just it puzzles the hell out, I mean, and it makes me wonder if we even have the capacity to discover everything, or even the essential things. I think we're scratching the surface right now. I say all that to say death can't be as simple as we assume.

It just can't be. It's just in the way I mean the fact that you can sometimes walk down a street and you know, I think for women this is even more prevalent, and you can fill some creepy guy watching you without seeing him, without knowing his presence there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure there is something that we don't understand that is out there in all these spaces between us, and I think that extends to all these other things out in the universe. And so you know, you go to a cemetery,

that's a version of death. Yes, but they can't just be it. Everything you've said about how you feel about life and how you feel about death and the after life, I think it's all in your work. I think it's all the thing that I was really fascinated with underground railroad,

particularly because of how it's heavy. It's fucking heavy. It's you know, there's so much trauma in it, but it is also clear from that show that you love life and the moments like in episode one where they run across the field together, it's such a joyous it's such a sort of it's fucking beautiful, and there's so much particularly how you shoot the landscape and the sun, and there's there's an element. It feels spiritual. There's spirits everywhere,

like it's all in there everything you. I just want to use tonight that everything you feel comes across. Thank you. It's not intentional. I'm trying to get to the point where where I am just working from from this feeling, from from a spirit. Bright said the word first, although I probably did say it before, but but I am trying to work just from this, this spirit, the spiritual place, if that, if that, if that element is present, and the thing that we're doing that day, actually all of

that is completely unintentional. It's meant to be just a

really simple run across this field. And we had filmed the dialogue portion of that scene somewhere else and just something I don't know what it was, man, the sun was setting and I just called out and said, hey, I think we should do the lines right here, and I think we should slow this down, let's just take let's take a moment with it, and we shot it in slow motion again not intentional, and after the first take it was clear something else is happening here, like

something else is happening here. Yeah, this is only last for like two seconds. It's twenty twenty one as a guy out blowing leaves. But it'll be done in a second. I don't hear it. I kind of hear it as I'm talking about the spiritual run across your brain. That's that's fascinating that wasn't planned, because it feels this is why this is the thing I love. And you know, I don't think you can compare them, but there are

things that have it's so much different. But in the making of Ted Lasser, there are things that there's a thing that Jason always says of someone else is quote, but it's the thing of ninety percent of the homework at leave ten percent so God can come in, you know that. And there's very much that thing of like

there are things that turn up. We did so much work, as so much planning, so much writing, but there are things in the show that happened on the day that happened with the right person walking in or you know, you follow that. And it's so fascinating because when it when I think it is channeled by the spirit or whatever you want to call it, it seems there's no other way you could have done that. It seems like the whole episode was building to this moment that came

randomly there. It's so fascinating that. Yeah, and I think that in a way the episode is building to that moment, but it's kind of where you were just saying, and what Jason talks about. I feel the same way. We're building to this moment, but but we're not expecting to build exactly what's what's in our heads, you know, we're hoping to be building and building, and then you get there. I mean it's almost like, I mean, this is lame. I was like on the pitch where you can you

can plan a strategize only so much. But at a certain point the flow of the gang, hopefully it takes over, you know, and now all the scheming and everything, now it's just will. It's just will, and it's just it's spirit, it's essence, it's passion, you know, very very roy Roy Kent thing to say, I love it, absolutely love it. Any other thing, oh, the one on the thing I would say what you said is you and Lili Wanghim is your partner. I love the farewell. I love it

so much. And I just imagine the two of you go to bed at night and say good night, genius, good night genius. No, not quite, not quite, like did you did you remember to turn the lights on? Lights off? Did you order this thing? Did you order that thing? Very very but but I do feel very fortunate to, uh, you know, to live with someone. I share my life with someone who also, you know, understands the necessity for these things that we're talking about right now. That it's

not just paint on numbers. You know that if it is painting at a certain point, it's just throwing throwing ink, you know, throwing pigment, you know, at a canvas and stepping back and allowing yourself to be to be shown what the thing is that you're trying to create. It's very cool, then, it's very very beautiful. And so here's the thing you were right. There is more after death. There's a heaven, and in this heaven, it's fucking great.

They got all your favorite things? What's your favorite thing? Coffee man shack, coffee, bro Hey, this place is made of coffee. Coffee. It's water wall coffee. The seeds are made of coffee. You regret loving coffee that much because there is so much coffee type of instruments there. But they're all very excited to see you, and they want to talk about your life, but they want to talk about your life through film. And the first question they ask you is, what is the first film you remember seeing?

Barry Jenkins the first film I remember seeing And I was trying to think of this, and there's a group of films around this window. I don't know why, but it starts when I'm like seven or eight years old. I don't know why, but all my movie memories kind of start there with like the color Purple coming to America. But the one that I remember remember is this weird

ass film called The Hidden starring Kyle McLoughlin. My uncle took us to a drive in cinema and we saw this very weird ass movie about the alien comes out of this chest at the end. Do you know this film? The Hidden? Is the posted like a black and white sort of thing with it like a like a spirit coming out of it. Yeah, exactly. That's my earliest memory of a movie. I don't know why, because I don't particularly care for that film. It doesn't really mean anything

to me. But I do remember sitting in my uncles like Buick was saber and you know, we had the radio turned on to hear the movie, and it was at the drive in and the thing came out of his chest and I was freaked out. Man, that's my earliest movie memory. Where was that. This was in Miami, Florida, back when we had drive in theaters, which was a really fun thing to do. Man. You just pull up in the car, get some popcorn and soda, you know, you have a few beers in the back, and you

just watch this movie. Do you remember thinking I want to do this, I want to make films. No, absolutely not, man, absolutely not. It was so far beyond me. I do remember I kind of like this. Movies are cool. Up to them, I'd on't eve been watching like like Saturday Morning cartoons. It's like this movie thing. Man, he's a pretty cool. I kind of like this. Yeah, Okay, what is the film that scared you the most? Do you

like being scared? I do so my mom, who you know, have a very complicated relationship with my mom, and it's interesting. She's not really a big film person, but for whatever reason, I think because there's been so many extreme things in her life, she loves horror films. Loves horror films. It's like her main genre of film. She's always telling me about this TV network called Chillers. There's a TV network called chiller. It's all horror films. It's all she watches.

And so I've always been exposed to the horror genre. The film that scared me the most, though, was that Texas Chainsaw Masaca, which was a film I saw. I remember I got into film school and somebody, some kids said, hey, you should watched Texas Chansaw Mascas. Why would I watch that? He goes it's actually a really good film. And I watched it and I was like, Yo, this is a really good film. Also, this is fucking insane because it

felt so real, you know watching it. I watched it again, maybe like a year ago, and it's almost like a snuff film. I mean, it's very very hardcore, very hardcore, and it freaked me out. It's really unpleasant. It's really unpleasant, and it does feel I actually weirdly think it probably has the same the dark version of what we've talked

about of this kind of letting the spirit in. There's a feeling of that maybe in the Texas Chains of Maskat, and that it feels like it's let evil spirits, like it feels it feels unsafe that film, it feels unsafe, and thinking about the world right now as a version doesn't seem so far matched, which is crazy. I remember watching it and going, this ship could happen, like this really could happen anyway. Yeah, that would be my pick there. That's a good one. And what about crying. What's the

film that made you cry the most? And are you a cryer? You make films that make me cry? Are you crying? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Brett Man apologies with the tears. I can be a crier. I'm actually crying more now in my old age. Lulu and I were watching We're watching this Netflix documentary on this K pop band. I think they're called Black Pink. It's name of this band. There's a Netflix documentary about them, and this is so embarrassing.

But there's a moment where their whole careers are in huge megapop stars, but they haven't conquered the American market. So they go and they play Coachella, and the documentary culminates with the playing Coachella, and you see them talk about the feeling of playing the Coachella, the validation of it, and it just broke me. Man. I was on the couch watching this this city pop pop pop music documentary and I was crying, and I was crying real tears. Man.

It was like, what's wrong with you? Really emotional. I was trying to finish Underground Railroad, you know. It was oh yeah, but when when I was a kid, the never ending story was the thing that you know, the scene where he's in the swamp of the horse and the horse kind of like, yeah, yeah, that's that was Yeah, it was I had just growing up. Yeah, that that hit a lot of us out. What is the film

that people don't generally like. It's not critically acclaimed, but you love it unconditioning and you think everyone else is an idiot? Yeah. I was actually surprised that that Howard the Duck is not a critically acclaimed film. It was a It was a movie I watched a lot as a kid, it was always on like television, and I was just really into it. I would like, I remember the song that he was singing, and I think I think Leah Thompson plays his girlfriend in the movie. Yeah,

that's right. It's a really cool film, man. Yeah. And people will say it's as you say, as Roy would say it's People say it's Ship, and I'm like, no, it's just not a shit film. This is a great film. The other one was a Last Action Hero came out and I remember I was like, oh, this movie bombed the tank at the box office and I went and saw it and I was like, this is actually a really good film. It's like a really fun film. So I would say those two. But Howard the Duck, man,

I had no idea. I was looking it up on Wikipedia. Yeah, it got trash. People hated that movie. It was hated. I waitly think both of those films were ahead of that time. How the Duck is very weird, which nowadays is fine, and Last Action Hero was very pist mud and and Ship, which nowadays is fine. I think they were both they flee they flew too clos of the sun too early or something interesting. Yeah, yeah, what's the

film that you used to love. You loved it very much when you were younger, you've watched it recently, and you do not care for it anymore, for whatever reason that may be. So this is a combination with the last question of Last Action Hero, because when I was a kid, I saw a Terminator two judgment day opening day at the theater Big Blockbuster, and I loved it. I thought this is amazing, and I watched it recently and I prefer Last Action Hero. It's a Terminator two

right now. I actually think Last Action Hero to me holds up better. You know, no che to the maker of Terminator two. He's a very big important guy. But but I will say as a as a combination, I then rewatched the original Terminator and that's film is a masterpiece. Yeah, a film is a masterpiece. And talk about something that feels very real, I mean just and just so very of its time in a very honest and dark way,

absolutely amazing. Watching Terminator two and thinking of that film of its time, you know, it's it's a great piece of entertainment. But I just didn't have the same response to it, reaction to a relationship to it that I had when I first saw it, obviously it's you know, it's a twenty twenty five euro film, so maybe that makes sense. But then you watched Terminator and it's like, oh my god, this film is like it is everything

so dark by the way, so dark. I mean, even in the world with all these mass shootings going on, you watch Terminator and it's like, Yo, how is James Cameron talking about these things? You know, twenty years before you know they became you know, every other week in our country you'd have one of these things happen. So yeah, Terminator two, man, I just didn't I love that movie, but I just don't have the same feeling for it though.

Terno one though, after Piece seven two, it's night last action here, all right, Jenkins, what what is the gudn't say that love it? What is the film that means the mice to you? Not necessarily the film itself is any good, but because the experience you had around seeing the film, that will always make it special. TA. When I was in high school the first screen came out, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a great great film,

really holds up. But I went and saw that film like three times in theaters and every time I went to see it. You know, me and my high school friends, we would go to random movie theaters and we would be in there. I don't know how we got away with this. We'd be in the back of the theater and we would sneak up more people and we would just jump scared of the ship certain moments in the film, because we knew the jump scared was scutting was coming.

The whole point that you don't know who was on the phone, and who's this and that, and so it became like a really fun thing. It was almost like a rocky horror picture show where we kind of made an event out of see you know, and we probably should have got our asses kicked, to be honest, but it made it really fun. You know. It's kind of just thinking about it. It came to me because I missed being in theaters. Man, I missed being in a room with a bunch of people and you know, one

person laughs and now eight people are laughing. One person jumps out of their seats, you know, when everybody's laughing or people are screaming. And in this film, when it came out, and especially to do it was just a more innocent time. I don't know that scream would have the same impact today as it had back then. But that was an awesome legoing experience. I mean just really

really awesome. That's fucking you fine. On a little side night, I saw maybe you've already done it, that you were going to have a screaming of underground rail the whole thing at cinema. Yeah, last night, man had a guy. Yeah, it went great. I showed up just for the Q and A. I still, yeah, I still, I still can't quite do it. But I showed up for the Q and A. It was great to be physically in a space with real people and they had real ask questions

which made me give real ask answers. Yeah, it was very cool and it also it just looks great with big But you can't sit with an audience with your own work. I am not. And also I wouldn't you know when whenever when Moonlight premiere, I didn't sit and watch it, and the Street premiere and I didn't sit and watch it. I just I just can't, Man, that's torture. Do you watch t lassa actually watch? Well? We we had a we had a we had a premiere in I had a proper premier. And that's right. I didn't.

I didn't realize we had to we had to sit because like once the thing, I was like, oh, we have to sit here and watch it. It's it's a very odd experience. But and I definitely sweated a lot. But on the other hand, it's slightly different with ted Lasso in that when you could hear laughter, it was like, Okay, this is going all right, it's okay, we're getting audible feedback.

But when it's a it's a drama, and I guess silence is how you know it's going well, if you're not hearing people shuffling, and yeah, silence, it's how you know. Or I love and in Moonlight when the question in the very first chapter where the young boy asks the character one, I'm going to quote exactly what he says.

He says, he asked, what's a faggot? You could hear the whole the whole audience people just inhale, just inhaled, and then you would you would hear people just keep the breath in, you know, until Mahrschela has this character starts to explain and you're just the whole audience is riding this way? Is he going to get the words right? There's nothing like it, man, It's yeah, that's cool. Man. Okay, what is the film you might relate to Ry Tenkings?

Actually I couldn't come up with an answer for this one. Man. It's interesting. I feel like I'm changing so much all the time that I have a hard time seeing myself in films. I do remember when I was a kid. Spike Lee has this film. It's one of the lesser, lesser known or less less well regard at works called school Days. Yeah. It's uh, you know, Lawrence Fishburners in it. You know a lot of really great actors who go on to become like the bedrock of the Spike Lee

acting troupe, Gane, Carliles, Posito's in it. But it's about these uh you know, all these black kids you know in college, you know, at an historically black college, uh in the States. And it just I knew black people went to college. I did, I did, I did. But seeing a whole world of just black people in college it kind of triggered something in me. I was like, Yo,

this is wild. There's this whole universe of blackness that because I'm so poor, and I'm just from such a far away place, you know, Miami's like the bottom of the US. It just didn't occur to me. And just seeing that film, I don't know, it just clicked, you know. It meant a lot to me. Even though I didn't end up going to a university like that, just even the confirmation that it was possible, I was like, oh, and this is weird. It is like nineteen ninety nineteen

ninety two. At this point, it should be pretty obvious that people go to college, but it's what they say. You know, I think there's something really powerful and actually like seeing seeing someone like you in these spaces that you've maybe assumed or something about the world has passively confirmed this space isn't for you. And so yeah, Spike School Days, i'd say, is one that is a perfect answer. I'm going to give you twenty points for that. I've

started scoring this since you gave that answer. What is objectively, objectively the greatest film ever made? It might not be your favorite, but objectively, you guys, that is the pinnacle of cinema. Shit, that's a tough one. A pinnacle of cinema. It's a peuple film school. I mean Mercedes got a couple, you got taxi driver, you got raging bull. You know, Spice got dude the right thing or wise kind love.

But for me, uh, you know, clarity. And he is my favorite filmmaker, and so her best film, I think is the greatest film ever made of this film called Boat Trabai, just about these men in the French Foreign Legion. You know, I just think it's a it's a perfect film. You know, it's like ninety minutes, you get in, you get out. It's just nothing but the most essential elements of cinema. And you know what it does too, man, because there are great films that tell really great stories.

You know, you get Vertigo, you got north By Northwest, You've got all these really singing in the rain, all really iconic primarily you know, old Hollywood films that tell a great story really in a really awesome way. A cinema this combination of sounds and images. It's a whole different thing. If I want a story, I read a novel.

Cinema the combination of light, image, and sound, all these different things, the absence of light, the absence of sounds, sometimes creating that putting that into a very potent mix. It's very difficult, it's very rare, and this film is just it is pure. It is pure fucking cinema. I mean it is the purest. If I could like just like scoop that up and put in a little caviar jar and serve it, you know, to take a hit of it, That's what I do. Bro, You know what

I'm saying. Give me a print. Give me a print of Poltrabai. You do it. Give you a print of Poltrabai and a sprinkle a little olive wall some seesaalt on it, and just give me a little woodspoon. And that's all I need, Bro, That's all I do. Did you see High Life? Film High Life? I did see High Life. I did see High Life. I saw it at the Toronto in a National Film Festival. Tricky film, tricky film. I saw that. That is one of those

films that I saw. I saw completely on man when I was in La I think writing ted last Season one. I saw it in this very odd cinema and I fucking loved it. But I also left there thinking this is going to be a hard hard sell for anyone else. As in I felt like I was in a particular mode at a particular moment that it really works for me. But my goodness, that is a tricky film. Well, and I think that that's that's something I really love about her work, and it's something that I seek out and

the things that I watch. We're talking about death. We've only got so many movies we're going to get to watch in our lifetime, you know. And I think having an experience that is singular, that is singular, that can't be had in the other way. The things you feel watching High Life, you're not gonna get. You're not gonna get that feeling watching too many other films, you know.

I think there's something really really lovely about that And I really loved I did a lot of like I wanted to read everything about it after I saw it, and I found I found like four podcasts that she had done where it was like Q and A's about the film, and in every single one she was like, I have to be honest, I don't know, I can't really talk about films. I don't really know how I do it. I just sort of failed them and they happen exactly she operates. I mean, I love her, but

legitimately I love her. She operates on her own wavelength and it's not about trying to orchis traded reaction or to build some very clever epiphany of theory. It's just she's responding to the world, responding to the characters. Um, it's a really wonderful way of working. I admire her greatly. She's amazing. Yeah, for sure, she's following this spirit. For sure. Barry Jenkins, what's the sexiest film you've ever seen? This

is a tough ask question. This is the question that I was like, how the fun Oh and the follow up question, by the way, very tough. But I would say Bound by the Wachowskis, because yes, Matrix that come out, and this is back when you could actually go into a video store. So I watched the Matrix as you're working in the theater that some of the Matrix came out. So I saw it a lot. I saw it a lot of times and thought, oh, this is very cool.

How I never heard of these filmmakers and blocks Blockbuster had this film Bound that the Wachowskis had made before Matrix. I was expecting this was gonna be a very make see type film. And I think Gina Goshan was on the cover box and you know, carry a moss and the Matrix. You know, I was wearing all the leather. Oh,

it's definitely the same people. And then I started watching this film, and I was watching it, I think, with one of my film school roommates, and I just remember getting very squirmy because this is you know, I went to school in Tallassee, Florida's the deep South, and this is before you know so many things about you know, the rights and lives of LGBTQ, plus people were very out sort of in like the public conversation and the mainstream.

And so with this kid who I don't know when we're watching this film, and Gina Goshan and Jenna Fertilli are very clearly I mean they are just getting after it. And I was like, yo, a kind of full awkward watching this with this person, but in a way, I'm kind of kind of like excited about watching this thing with this person. Was like, what the fuck do we do? And so I just keep watching this movie. At the end, I was like, how did the Matrix people make this thing?

And why was that so damn sexy? So yeah, I would say bound By that's a very very good outsway. They really do go after it's a it's a wonderful film. So let's deal with the subcategory to this question, which is Traveling Boy in his Worrying White Ones a film you found a rousing. He went, sure you should. I'm sorry, Barry, I'm sorry to even ask it, but I have to. It's on the list. Yes. By the way, the Worrying White Ones is awesome. I think I've ever heard that

an English saying. But but but I dig um, you know, I think this is actually, this is not so bad an answer. I'm gonna go with who framed Roger Rabbit? You know, I remember watching that as a kid, and I think, hey, because I was a kid, it was allowed. But I just thought Jessica Rabbit was fucking incredible. I remember I would have these dreams about Jessica Rabbit and she's a cartoon and it's like, it's like this, this shouldn't be happening, you know. Again, cartoons are one thing.

They're very sweet, they're very innocent of the watching them my whole life, and now this cartoon is doing things, is doing things again. I was a kid, so I think it was pretty allowable. But uh, but yeah, frame Roger Rabbit. Yeah, I think that's a perfectly legitimate answer. And if that's blow my mind, it blows my mind. How how that works. Jessica Rabbit works because it does work. It entirely works for me. And it is a drawing. I don't understand how the world works like that. It

is is a very persuasive drawing. I mean, it kind of does make sense. I mean, Playboy had cartoons back in the day, or I had a you know, I had the little little comic drawings, you know, for someone the editorials, So it makes sense. It makes sense. I wonder if they hired someone at Playboy just to draw Jessica Rabbit. Um, and now we was gonna hear this and gonna go wait, we gotta talk before I say good night, genius. We need to talk about what you said.

What is the film that you could all have watched the most over and over again. There's there's two films. One film I think makes sense. I'm a really big fan of David Fincher's a really big fan of it is and I just find his movies to be just infinitely watchable. And The Social Network is a movie that if that movie's on, I will watch it. If it's on, I'm just gonna watch it. I'm just I'm not gonna

I'm not gonna not watch it. You know, if I come into it and it's been on for twenty minutes, I'm gonna keep watching the next hour and twenty minutes. If it's been on for an hour and ten minute's gonna watch the last ten minutes. I just I just find it imminently watchable. The way he makes his film, it's just like it's a drug. It's a drug the other one, and so I've seen Social Network a lot of times. The other one is very strange. Again, I'm a bit obsessed with death and terrified of flying, the

combination of those two things. Charlie Coffin as a film called Schenectacky New York, which many people thank you one of the greatest films ever made. I think it's one of the greatest films ever made. And Brett, I promise you it's probably the film I've seen the most of any film because I went on this. I went on this kick where anytime I would fly, I would put on Select to Key New York. I had it on my laptop I had it on my phone, I had

it on my iPad. If I got on a plane, I would just put on Select to Key, New York. I was like, Okay, I'm in this very heavy place because I'm getting on this thing that terrifies me. I just want to live in that emotion. This is the perfect time to watch Charlie Kaufman's Senectic Key New York. With As often as I fly, I've seen it at least i'd say, coming up one a hundred times. I've seen that film. At least. It's fucking amazing that film.

And similarly to how I felt in terms of Underground Railroad is like, I don't know how he made it. I'm like, it's such a huge just the levels of it, the scale of it. I'm just like, I don't know how you did this. And both I'm sure you've read it the screenplay, the public screenplay of it. I have not read the screenplay. What I have done, though, is that he actually came to He came to London, he gave a bath, to a bath to talk and his

bath to talk. I keep on my phone and I'll we have the same birthday, he and I, me and mister and mister Kaufman. Yeah, and so yeah, he's somebody very meaningful to me. It's funny you mentioned Underground Railroad. The production designer Want To New York is also the production designer on the Underground Railroad, so there's some connectivity there. It's just such a deep film, man. You know, I tried not to take a moment. It's kind of why I wanted to do this podcast. One of your Twitter

fillers like, hey, you should go on Brett's podcast. Bret's got a podcast. Took a listen. I was like, you know what, cool, maybe I should if we don't get it, we don't often get a time to like sit down and really just step back and just talk about shit, just random shit, um, and then talking about those things reflect on what it is we do. And then the whole movie is Charlie Kaufman coming out of this decade, just like I mean, he was like he was the

hardest of the heart. I mean, you know, I think he's still he's a genius, but at this moment in the mainstream, it was like, Charlie Kaufman is a genius that does something to you, man, It really does something to you. And this film was a very public display of all the a Row seas and just everything that I'm sure was swirling within him at that moment, and

he made a masterpiece. It's a masterpiece, man, It's incredible. Like, I think there's so many things going on that film, but one of them I think because I've showed to something, they were like, oh, this is really depressing, and I was like, I don't think it is depressing. I think it's about a man who is so scared of death and illness that he thinks he's early, thinks he's dying the entire film, but in fact how it lives everyone, and in fact it's sort of a celebration of life.

It's just that he keeps not paying attention to the right bit in a way, like and I love there's a moment I think it's in the trailer as well, but when he's just rehearsing this play, he's trying to make this truthful thing. There's a moment so far into the film when when the actors say when did we put it on? When is it happening? And he's like, it's not finished yet, It's never finished, never gonna be finished. Oh yeah, it's good ship. Yeah, it is. It is.

It's good ship. And it didn't do well. It didn't do well. And I don't know if it's because it's it's so honest, it's so brutally honest about what it is to do, to do what he does, to do what mister Kaufman does, and what he had been doing so well and so consistently for so long. And I guess maybe that's the price you pay, man, that's the price you pay. And it's a it's a real it's very dense and you need to watch it a lot. I mean it's it asks a lot of times, it

times time. Yet and yet you can recall the trailer you did the serving suggestion properly. What' since advertised that we can talk about it? What? I love that fu I'm excited he chose that then that you had the same production designer. Congratulations, What do you know what? That's one hundred points that one. Now there's there's a lot of human your stuff feel very funny. What's the funniest film you've ever seen? What a film that made you

laugh the most? Actually is the question you go that that's that's an that's an easier, easier question of Friday, but by Arf, Garry Gray and ice Cube. I mean again, I was in college Friday came out, Actually were two films, Friday and Half Baked, both came out at the same time. And I just remember, you know, freshman year, you just go to somebody's dorm room they put on Friday and you just laugh your head off. You just laugh your head off. Or Half Baked and you just laugh your

head off. I think the first time I ever smoke pot it was while watching Half Baked. That's how, that's how you should do it, right. It's underrated film Baked. Well, yeah, it depends on who's rating. It depends on who's rating, bros, who's rating. Because where I come from it as a masterpiece, a masterpiece. I came right, O came right, and it was kind of the precursor of Chapelle, you know, doing

Chapelle's show. I think it's one of his greatest works, you know, right up there in the hallowed halls of the Godfather raging bull. Yeah, fucking absolutely right. I don't like to be negative. I don't think you love it either. Very quickly, what's the worst film you ever saw? Oh? Birth of a Nation by d W. Griffith. Next question, You finally fucking nailed it. Next question, correct question, Next question, that one, next question. That one came so much easier

than the traveling piner. Barry Jenkins, you have been beyond what I dreamed you'd be. I dreamed you'd be great. You've been fantastic. However, when you were in the building and a plane flute pass and sucks you out of the window and you fell many many, many, many, many many many stories, and halfway down you were suddenly accepting of it. You thought this is quite nice, and you sort of floated down at peace with the world. And then you smashed into the ground. And I was walking

around and I was like, where's Harry Jenkins gone. I've probably lived up in that tool building. But then there's a sort of crab gather around, and oh, you're an absolute fucking mess in the pavement. I'm carrying a coffin, you know, I'm like always walking around for a coffin, and so I'm like, don't worry, guys, I'll take care of this. So I screw you up, but you are like embedded in the tarmacs, so I have to get

a fucking digger, one of those JCB diggers. Drill around your body, try and get as much as I can. It's really horrible, So stuff all the bits of you into the coffin. But there was far more with the tarmac and everything is far more than I planned for. And this coffin is absolutely jammed. It is full. There is really only enough room in this coffin for me to slide one DVD into the side with you to

take across to the other side. And on the other side it's moving every night, and one night it's your movie night. What film are you taking to show everyone when it's your Maybe not in heaven, Barry Jenkins, Guy, Okay, when I had this vision, Senectic Key, New York did not exist, So I can't say senect New York. I can't say that didn't exist. Movie hadn't come out yet ten years before, so I can't say that one. So

I'll be honest. At the time of this vision, the movie of my life was a little film from the nineteen eighties starring Bruce Willis called die Hard, And so I think die Hard, if I if I'm being honest, I think, at that moment in my life having this vision, die Heart would have been the film it would have been. It's funny you asked earlier, is that the film that spark that you thought, oh, maybe I could do say? Diehard was the first film that gave me an inkling

of oh shit, people make movies. Maybe I could do that someday. Very random, bread, very random. I love it. Die Hard has done so much good in the way. That's fantastic. Yes, Barry Jenkins, you've been wonderful. Is there anything you would let tell people to look out for to watch? I would certainly say, if you've not seen it yet, get on the underground railroad. Is there anything else you would tell me would deliver? Yeah? I would.

I would say, get to the underground railroad. Yeah. And if you have watched it or you haven't, there's a little side piece or an indendum to the show, this piece called the Gaze that's on my Vimeo page. It was as we were making the show. We were paused making the actual show, and we would just record these portraits of primarily our background actors, and we didn't know

what we were going to do with them. But I think it just captures the essence of what was important to me about making the show, and I describe it as being an opportunity to visually, you know, get a depiction of my ancestors, and it's fifty minutes. There's no dialogue. It's just score and people staring directly into the camera, directly at you, the viewer, and I'm very proud of it. So I would say, seek out the gays. Amazing. I'm going to watch that when we get off this zoom.

Barry Jenkins, I mean, you're brilliant, and I'm not glad to say it, but let's say it all right. You are. Thank you for doing this. I really really appreciate your time. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you. The pleasures are mine and Brett. I don't know if people up and say it, I'm gonna say it back to you on this show. You are brilliant, my friend. It has been an honor at talk with you, Rare. I appreciate it, all right, Get out of here, be good.

So that was episode one hundred and sixty. Head over to patreon dot com forward slash Brett gold Scene for the extra fifteen minutes of chat a secret and video with Barry Jenkins. Go to Apple Podcasts give us a five star rating. But don't talk about the podcast. I don't care. No one wants to read about that. What we want to read about is what is the film that means the most to you and why I do read him. They're very nice. They make more in my

neighbor cry and we really appreciate it. Thank you all for listening. Thank you so much to Barry for doing the show. Thanks to Scrubius Pit and Distraction Pieces Network. Thanks to Buddy Peace for producing it. Thanks to ACAS for hosting it. Thanks to Adam Richardson for the graphics, at least Allie them for the photography. Come and join me next week for another incredible and hilarious guests. Oh

it's another corker. So that is it for now. In the meantime, I hope you will have a lovely week and please, now more than ever, be excellent to each other s.