Sidle Creek by Jolene McIlwain

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast about books and other words too, including short stories sometimes. I'm Lily.

but you didn't say a podcast where we read books. You changed the verbiage.

What did I say?

You said about books.

Oh shit! Well that was an accident.

I'm Sarah.

We are reading the books, it's not just about them. In case I needed to clarify.

We do, we do read them.

The room I'm recording in is a symphony. There are airplanes, there are crying cats, I just heard a firetruck go by. I don't know how much of this is going to get picked up on the recording, but I'm just going to apologize up top. We'll see what happens.

I've got pug noises, but I always have pug noises.

Yeah, this is, um, exceptionally bad on my end right now. Tonight we're going to be discussing Sidle Creek, a collection of short stories by Jolene McGillwin. McGill Wayne? McGill Win, I think.

I have no idea how to pronounce her last name. Honestly, I'm glad that you're the one who's struggling with it.

Mackle Wayne. And then it's printed in all caps on the cover, so I can't even use, like, capitalizations to try to help tell me what's going on.

It is a beautiful cover though, I actually really like the cover.

Yeah. But we're not talking about this book yet. First, what is something great that happened recently?

Something great that happened recently is I went to Pennsylvania, which is not in and of itself a great thing necessarily, but I visited some friends who are in Pennsylvania and that was a lot of fun. We did not stay at the Cartoon Network Hotel, which is apparently

I'm so mad at you.

In Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I'm mad too.

could you not?

How could we not? I didn't know it was a thing and then we drove past it and I was like, Why are we not staying here? Apparently there are two Cartoon Network hotels. One of them is in Taiwan. One of them is in Pennsylvania and we did not stay there.

I have so many questions that you can't answer. And I'm upset about it.

I have a lot of questions too. Yeah, I have a lot of questions, but it was a great weekend.

Oh, good. I also had a great weekend. We timedwe didn't do this on purpose, but it was great that we were both out of town at the same time.

It was not on purpose, but it was very convenient.

My husband and I flew down to Palm Springs to visit my parents. It was great. We touched snow, because apparently you can do that in Palm Springs in March. Uh, I was not expecting this. And then went to the zoo, and went to the museum, and just, you know, fun, fun stuff.

That sounds delightful. Did you get the warm weather you were hoping for?

Yes, I did. So, that's the secret. The snow is at the top of Mount Gregorio. So you can take a funicular, and it's like 7, 000 feet elevation change. So in Palm Springs, it's like, you know, 70 right now, and then up there, it's like 40. And that's why there was snow on the ground still.

Yeah, I saw that in the Sierra last summer, when I went backpacking.

Yeah, I would not want to backpack there, but taking just a little trip up to like, touch it and then have dinner and then go back down was nice.

To be clear, we went up to the top of a hill and then down again, so we were not actually backpacking in snow.

Good. Because gross. So what are you drinking tonight?

I am drinking red wine. I did start out my evening drinking homemade mead, but I have moved on because I have a bottle that needs to be emptied.

And that's how it goes sometimes.

That is how it goes sometimes. What about you?

I have a cherry drinking vinegar in sparkling water.

That sounds lovely.

It is. Cherry is very tart. It goes with vinegar very well.

My shrubs usually get used in salad dressing, not for drinking, but I really should drink them more often.

It's nice. It's, like, not quite warm enough for them yet, but, oh

Yeah. It's been a little chilly here and, uh, calls for a warmer drink.

Have you read anything lately? Other than our podcast books?

I have, I've been continuing on with my subjective chaos reading, so I'm in the middle of reading Hybrid Heart right now by Uri Al, I believe is the author, and it is about a, I'm gonna say near Future, future Idol in Japan, and I'm liking it. It is this. girls kind of experience in the idol industry. And even though the idol industry is terrible, and it's terrible in this novel too, it does make me, reading this book does make me miss Japan.

Well, that means the book's doing its job well, right?

It is, like, it's a novella. So it's not like a full book, but I'm enjoying it so far. Definitely doing its job.

Wonderful. I have not read anything, uh, other than podcast books, so let's begin. Oh, actually, first Today is the last day of our Patreon drive. If you are a patron at the end of today being Wednesday, April 3rd.

I believe so. April 3rd, yes.

That was some very fast mental math, but I think I pulled it off.

Excellent job.

You will get not only our patron rewards, but also some additional bonuses as part of this drive. So check that out if you're interested. We have some really fun content and some really great exclusive episodes planned coming up, so you don't want to miss that.

For anyone who's on the fence about joining our Patreon, can you tell us what are some things that we've posted recently?

Our most recent post was the March exclusive episode, The Good Time Girls of the Alaska Yukon Gold Rush by Lael Morgan. This was a full length episode where we read a non fiction book about sex workers in the Alaskan gold rush in the early 1900s. We had an absolute blast recording it because also our top tier patrons were invited to a live stream of our recording of the episode, and that was the best part.

Inaugural livestream. And for our 1 patrons who don't get access to the exclusive episodes, what's our most recent thing that we've posted?

is a Words Are Weird that we didn't feel fit into any of our regular episodes because it was clitoris and that kind of felt bad to piggyback onto a specific book. So we recorded it as its own segment and posted it only for patron members. We also have some recurring segments. Not just uncut content from episodes. We do Shoot, Screw, or Marry with characters from the books that we read and discuss on the show.

And now, back to Cidal Creek. Boy, this collection of stories was dark. It went some dark places.

Yeah, this collection was intense.

I don't think either of us knew anything about it. The publisher reached out and asked if we'd be interested in covering it. And this was a while ago, so apologies for, like, taking forever to actually talk about it on the podcast. I feel a little bit bad about that. But we did say that it would take a while. So at least we set expectations. But yeah, I don't think we knew anything about it besides just the blurb on the back.

I'm being a little bit silly there. I thought some of them were bittersweet, and some even actually sweet, but we can argue about that in a minute.

They were not all depressing, but a good many of them were.

Yeah. So this is a collection of short stories that all take place in Seidel Creek, which is a region in Appalachia. Is it a real region or a made up one for this collection? I did not actually look that up. I don't know if it matters. It kind of matters.

I don't know. Oh, it was an NPR book of the year.

Oh, shit.

Good for Cidal Creek.

I mean, they earned it.

Yeah.

They, as in the short stories, McIlwain earned it as the author who wrote, wrote them.

Yeah, I mean, the author definitely earned that. I can't see anything about Cidal Creek being a place, so I'm going to assume that it is a fictional town set in western Pennsylvania. I did appreciate reading this as I was on the plane back from Pennsylvania. I didn't manage to read it in Pennsylvania, but

It does specifically take place in Appalachia, which is not a region I know a whole ton about. I did listen to the Dolly Parton biography series, so I know a little bit about Appalachia. Just, uh, in that context, but that's pretty limited.

Yeah, I can't say that my knowledge of Appalachia is that great, to be perfectly honest.

Well, McGillwyn does know about Appalachia, because she's from there. So, I feel like this is probably a pretty accurate reference. I mean, it's fiction, but I think the tone and the vibes are probably

The thing about it that struck me And again, I'm going to qualify this by saying, I know very little about Appalachia, I'm not from there, et cetera, et cetera, but it didn't feel, you know, how sometimes a book about a place can feel kind of like, what's the phrase I'm looking for? There's a phrase, but it can kind of feel like touristic, you know,

Yeah.

and this didn't feel, like that. This felt like someone who knows about the area and respects the people who live there versus someone who is writing about a place because they think it's going to get them something.

Especially with how vulnerable so many of these stories are, I think it could really easily have turned voyeuristic.

Yes. That was the word I was looking for. Thank you.

Yeah. Especially with like, you know, us and the other NPR bitches reading it going, Oh yes, what a horrible place to live! Like, I do think that, like, that's a line that us as readers have to not, or have to be aware of.

Yeah.

But also, it's a place that has very heartbreaking narratives.

Yeah, I was, I was going to say, I also think that that's a line that authors don't always do the best job at like delineating or not crossing. And so I really want to give Michael and props for that because these were really well written.

Oh, the prose was beautiful. Something that I noticed right away is that these short stories are incredibly varied. just from like a format perspective. They're all different POVs, some of them are first person, some of them are second person, and third person. It's got all of the points of view.

Yeah, I thought it was neat how, and not every story does this, but I was, I thought it was neat how some of the stories had little minor callbacks to previous stories. Not in a way that was distracting, but in a way that added to the depth of the story.

It really made it feel like Cidal Creek was a

Was a place.

it's a real community. I don't know if it is, but it is.

I think we've decided that it's not.

Yeah. But, I mean, in this book it is.

Yes. This, the book, the book felt really real.

So I felt like the stories in this book were arranged in a way of sort of escalating heartbreak?

I did think that they kind of eased you into the, to the darkness. It started with the shallow water and then you, then you went into the deep end.

Oh boy, I think I texted you during You four are the one, I believe.

I don't remember the name but, but you did text me during the one about the um, the kids caring for the woman who's had a lot of miscarriages and the community is worried that she's going to have another one.

And the story is from the perspective of four, I think they're like 11 year old girls?

Well, I would say it was, the story was from the perspective of one of the four eleven year old girls. But, yeah.

Who basically make it their summer project to just take care of this lady.

Yeah.

It's really sweet, but also so stressful. Oh my god.

It, it is. And because of some of the, the content of previous stories, I, like, I expected things to go wrong.

Well, they absolutely could have. There's no, like, safety of, well, she's not gonna do that to us. She will.

She will, she could. And maybe it's a little bit of a spoiler for this specific story to say that it doesn't go wrong. But you are on the edge of your seat the entire time, waiting for the other shoe to drop, thinking, it is so easy in real life for this situation to turn bad and for bad things to happen to this woman. And you absolutely expect it to go wrong.

I mean, and she did too, right?

I mean, the whole community did, yeah.

Yeah. That one was a lot. I did have to put that one down, I think, in the middle of it. That's when I texted you, because I was like, Jesus. But it starts a little bit less intense than that, and then it sort of builds, and then I think it pulls back towards the end. The last story, is the last story the one I think it

The last story is the one about the boy who finds a woman who is, and I'm not sure if she's getting, uh, fallen.

actually, before we do any of this, content warnings for this book.

It gets dark.

Really, really fucking dark. Child abuse, sexual assault, regular assault, death, murder, miscarriage, memory loss. In the sad way, not in the fun romance novel way. What doesn't this book touch on?

There's a lot.

Anyway, so, there's a lot. And now, I don't think that woman was getting a voluntary c section on the side of the road.

No, I don't think she was, which is why I don't think it's a particularly sweet story, because it's all about how, well, A, I'm sure this woman was traumatized, but how this boy who finds her in the midst of this, like, process is traumatized. Like, I wouldn't call that sweet.

Okay, but it's more sweet than some of the previous stories because he does save her.

Yes, it's, I mean, I, I agree that it's sweeter than the story and, which the poor neurodivergent coded boy accidentally runs over a woman in his car and then gets put away for manslaughter, but I still wouldn't call it sweet.

Okay, I meant bittersweet. If I left bitter off, that's my bad. But it's definitely less, like, dark than the middle of this collection.

I still disagree with calling it bittersweet, but I will agree with you that it is slightly less dark than the middle of the collection.

mean, the child abuse one was viscerally upsetting.

That one, yeah, that one was really upsetting. That's the one where a father goes from

Cockfights to dogfights to his children.

Yeah, there are a lot of really upsetting stories in here, but they're all so well written that I liked them despite the content. Which is, I mean, like, I have a pretty low threshold for disturbing things, so I think that's high praise.

I think it is dismissive to use the label horror for this collection. Although, I think it would not be necessarily wrong. Just for some of the, like, gut churning discomfort. I don't think that's how the genre is used, though.

Uh, yeah, I was gonna say, I don't think this counts as horror because horror, to me, has an element of the unreal to it.

I don't think it needs to. Because, like, slasher films, for example, there's nothing supernatural in that, necessarily.

I'm not talking about Supernatural specifically, but unreal is in the sense that this wouldn't really happen.

Interesting.

This is a personal definition. I don't know how well it stands up. And I'm not a horror, like, reader or watcher, so I really don't know how it stands up. But when, like, instinctively when I think horror, I think a step removed from reality. Which is not the sense I mean, obviously, this is all fiction.

But it's realistic fiction.

These things are not necessarily happening, but it, it doesn't have that, like, level of this would never happen that I do get from most horror.

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I don't think that's actually an applicable label for this. And it feels really minimizing. because I think of exactly the thing you're describing. But I do think, as a horror reader, I am used to, and sometimes seek out, that feeling of dread and discomfort from the content that I read. And so, this reminded me of that feeling.

I could see that. I mean, the, a lot of these stories are horrifying.

Oh yeah, for sure.

Which I, I think is kind of what you're getting at when you talk about that sense of dread, right?

Yeah. Well, while we're talking about genre, for a little tone break here, I could obnoxiously make the argument that some of these are magical realism because fortune telling isn't actually real.

You could.

Mm hmm. I think that would also be really dismissive and minimizing of the very sad stories that treat fortune telling as real. So I don't really have the heart to do it, but I did think of that when I was making notes. So, here's my half assed version of it, I guess.

I think for that story in particular, which is this man, well, and his wife read the future in eggs. I think there's just a little bit of ambiguity in me as the reader, not necessarily in the story to be clear. This may be something that I am bringing. about how much of the future they are actually seeing, and how much they are reading retrospectively.

I guess it's the question of, do we think that the main character is a reliable narrator?

Yeah.

Because the way he tells it, they predicted this exact event a year in advance, down to the week it would happen. And they give multiple examples, they, the main character and his wife, of times that they have done this. And their, you know, parents and grandparents, because they come from a culture of this. And so, if he's a reliable narrator, and all of those examples are true, then that's pretty unrealistic.

Maybe it was. You're right, we don't know.

also a magical river with healing powers, the eponymous Cidal Creek.

It's true, a couple of people think that it has healing powers.

It was really interesting how outsiders were handled in this collection. I'm thinking specifically because of, what was, which was that story with the man and his wife? It's the cover, I realized, looking at this book after I finished it. With the little birds in their eggshells.

Oh, the, the one with the fortune tellers.

Yeah, I guess yeah, man and his wife didn't narrow it down at all, huh? Yeah.

Actually, it was pretty good at telling me which one you were talking about. I think you're talking about Shell.

Probably.

Tiller Shanty and his wife Mai.

Yes. So, yeah, in that, he met his wife while he was fighting in Vietnam, and she was a local of Vietnam, and they fall in love, and they go through the immigration process, and she comes to live with him in Appalachia afterwards, and is she the only example of an outsider who's not a villain? Maybe.

Maybe. I, all, all I can think of when we talk about outsiders are the, well, there are the men.

The Hunters.

Well, I was gonna say there, there are the men who come to bed on dogs and later, On the boys who are from out of town, who are big money from out of town. And then there's another story where there are hunters who come and do bad, I mean, who, who abuse the, the local population. They, like, rape the women and do really bad, kind of frat boy, but worse stuff.

frat boys who are performing these hazing rituals, quote unquote hazing rituals, on others who they do not respect and so there's nothing holding them back.

Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think most of the time we see outsiders who don't respect the people who live in Sidle Creek. There are the truckers in the one story,

That's true.

and they're not necessarily villains, but there's the potential that that they could be.

Well, that's the story where a young woman goes missing, and the whole story kind of plays out like a murder mystery from the perspective of her boss, who is extremely upset because he's a decent human being. And it is interesting how the community immediately turns on the truckers, even though it turned out that they did nothing wrong.

Yeah, but I, I think it's also kind of understandable because the truckers are transitory, right? Like they don't stay long. They're just there for, for a little bit. They don't have an opportunity to make inroads with the community, make bonds with the community. And so it's easy to think, well, none of us could have done it, so it has to be one of them. And I think that's, that's just human mentality, right? It's us against them, and we know us.

That's like what the main character says right at the beginning, right? Like, I know for a fact none of the employees at my restaurant would have ever hurt her.

Yeah.

And it's because no one wants to believe that of the people they know. And it ended up being a tragedy, but still.

was a hard story to read. As so many of these were, but. Mm.

I mean, okay, wait, no, I don't want to get off track. Because I think maybe what it is is not outsiders, it's the city folk, specifically. The two examples, you know, the out of town hunters and the men coming in to bet, are both from a larger city, with more affluence. Whereas, with the truckers, the community does turn on them, but that's because of an inciting incident. That's not the story making them villains, right?

Right.

And then with Mai, she's also from a rural community. Just a different one.

And they have also settled in Sidal Creek. I mean the, the betters and the hunters are visitors.

Can we say gamblers so it doesn't sound like we're saying they're better?

Yeah. The the gamblers. That's, that's, I think that's

I know what you meant, but I heard that in my head and was like, hold on.

Gamblers is more accurate. The gamblers and the hunters, they're not residents in the way that Mai is.

And they're exploiting the people of these communities in very, like, literal ways, but it does. Kind of a pull on the, like, two details about Appalachia that I know, which is how, at one point, God, I really shouldn't even try to bring this up because of how little I know about it, but I think it's important. The United States needed the region of Appalachia. for industry, right? Like, coal and lumber and stuff.

and not that I know any more than you do, because I don't, but I do think there's something in the way that people look down on Appalachia a lot as, you know, backwards and hicks or whatever, and feel like it's easy to exploit them because they come from money or the city or whatever. And We're seeing that a little bit from the perspective of people who live in Appalachia in this collection.

Is it terrible that I thought the end of the, uh, out of town hunters was a little bit victorious.

No, it feels victorious. I mean, they deserved it.

Oh, and that's the community, like, taking care of their own.

Yeah, like, it's a, it's terrible, but also it feels earned.

Absolutely. Oh man, I was cheering them on.

Those were shitty people. I'm not gonna be sorry when they get what they deserve.

Yeah.

Did you have a favorite story in this collection?

Oh. Okay, I do think the, shoot, all the four of us, You four are the one, I'm pretty sure. I like the ones that had a kind of maybe a little bit happy ending.

I agree. I agree.

That one I thought, I don't want to say it worked because, I mean, miscarriages aren't because you don't do it right. It's just a horrible tragedy that you can't control. But, I'm glad that the story ended with the woman having her baby.

It felt like a much more uplifting story than many of the other stories did, just because it ends with the woman having her baby successfully.

Yeah. And then also for that reason, the, which one was the Out of Town Hunters? Uh, one second. Can I figure it out?

I think I can because that's where, I think that's, oh, no.

Eminent Domain, maybe? That feels right. I'm gonna look.

Uh, I think it's the less said.

It is. For that reason, the less said the story about the out of town hunters who do horrible things to the people of the community and absolutely get what they deserved was a very satisfying one.

It is satisfying that they get what they deserved. I think for me, I really enjoyed the fractal geometry of grief.

Yeah.

Which is the story of a man whose wife has just passed and he's trying to come to terms with his loss and she thinks, he thinks that she has come back as a deer in his backyard and he kind of forms a, a parasocial relationship. Can that be considered a parasocial relationship?

I think it's just an obsession.

Yeah, he forms this obsession with this deer. And then eventually the deer gets shot by a hunter. And it was a beautifully sad story. And then I also really enjoyed Shell, which is the story of the couple who can read the future in eggshells. And the husband finds a shell that says he's going to lose his wife, and at the end of the story, she has some form of dementia and has lost her memory, and so he has lost his wife.

I, I was actually going to bring those two up as well, I think because I can relate the best to them, because they involve loss and tragedy without violence.

Mmm, yeah

Which is just closer to my lived experience as a person.

yeah,

And so I do think they hit differently because of that too. There's a, a, uh, A feeling of inevitability and tragedy with those two stories. That like, as tragic as the one about the sons, um,

Well, I I think that these two hit closer to home

Mhm.

You know just just because they are something that anyone can experience Or there is a broader applicability to the experience than some of the other stories.

Yeah, I agree. There, something I noted right at the beginning, and it ended up being less true as I read on, but, Mhm. Mhm. still I think is worth bringing up, is how much these stories are centered on parent child relationships. And I know that's kind of a dumb thing to say, because yes, everyone has some kind of parent, whether they know them or not.

But not all stories are focused on that relationship. I agree.

Yeah. Um, but it comes up a lot

Yeah, and I do think you're right when you say that it is, it becomes less the focus as the collection progresses. But there are a lot of stories in this that, that do focus on that.

from both sides as well, I would say.

Yeah.

And there's a, like, a lot of conversation around, like, trying to be a better parent than your own parents, and also, like, trying to come to grip with the people who your parents are versus the people you hoped they would be. And there's just lot. And it's mostly very sad.

Yep.

This collection was so well written, though.

It was. I mean, it was excellent.

I mean, it makes it bearable, but also harder, right? Because it's this incredibly vivid prose, with, like, really clear imagery, just absolutely gorgeous writing, different voices for different characters, like, you know, in style and stuff. And it's just an absolute wonderful piece of artwork. That is also just, like, ripping your soul out while you read it.

Yeah. It was hard to read, but I'm glad that I read it.

Yeah, this is probably one that I'm most likely to reread.

Hmm. I don't know if I can say the same. I'm probably not gonna reread it, partially because it's not really my genre. But, again, I'm very glad that we did read it. Yeah.

Of course, yeah. For me, it's There is so much going on, and it almost feels a little bit overwhelming when you're going, like, right from one into the other.

Yeah.

That I think it would be nice having a couple months of space and then coming back to these stories.

Yeah, I can see that.

Now, with how my free time goes, we'll see if that actually happens. But

if you're reading anything, it should be solstitious submissions.

Yeah.

You're not allowed to reread this.

Not now, but like, you know, in a couple months.

In a couple of months, there'll probably still be something else you have to read.

Yeah, there will. But Yeah, it was really good.

was.

Oh, who should read this book? Gosh, I do think you should have a strong constitution. But other than that, everybody? Everyone in the United States, at least.

Yeah, I think it has broad appeal, but you do have to be aware of the content warnings. This book goes in some dark places. We've talked about some dark stories. We've talked about some of the content warnings. Like, if you are not in a place to read about any of those things, then don't read this book, because it's not going to be good for you. But, if you can, then yes, you should read this book. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok, at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye! If you are not in a place to read about any of those things, then don't read this book. because it's not going to be good for you. Um, but if you can, then yes, you should read this book.

absolutely. Um, Bard is crunching his little heart out on dry cat food right next to me. So I'm gonna give him a minute and then we can do the outro.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Okie dokie.

What a good little boy.

Yeah. Bard, if you're eating now, does that mean you won't wake me up at 2am?

No.

Yeah, no.

So you've got some serious reading to do before you go to bed tonight.

I do. Um, and then all day tomorrow and Sunday as well.

Well, you need to, well, yeah, okay,

Yeah.

solstitia. Not, I was gonna say, it's a little late, uh, to be reading noise floor. But, yeah.

I'm actually feeling really good about where I'm at in Noisefloor and how fast I was reading it, so. I mean, yes, I am going to read it tonight, but I'm like feeling good about it.

I, I think you can do it. I mean, yes.

Yeah,

I agree.

I'll see if you're Okay, we're not waiting for the cats anymore. Uh, do you want to go first?

Sure.