Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily.
And I'm Sarah, and I'm so delighted, that we have Susan Palumbo on the podcast today to join us to talk about her new collection Skin Thief.
thank you for having me here. This is wonderful.
Thank you for coming on.
My pleasure.
So before we get into the true topic of discussion for the day, first, what's something great that happened recently?
my Good thing, this week is that, my aunt and uncle and cousin and her husband visited. So, it was delightful seeing you, Lily. Had a great time.
It was great seeing you in the pugs as well.
Are you related?
We are related, yes.
Oh, that's adorable.
We're cousins, so there was a family event last weekend and it was chaos.
It was chaos. But a good kind of chaos.
It's neat to have a cousin that you like, like the same things with and have a podcast with.
like it. I like it.
I have even come to like the podcast. She dragged me into doing it. Kicking and screaming.
Well, I'm glad she did.
Me too.
So someone emailed me a bookmark. So that was fun. I got this collection from this writer and she's kind of my friend on the internet, but I'm not sure if we're friends.
If she's sending you bookmarks, it sounds like maybe you're friends.
Maybe, maybe. So I bought her book and she was like, I'll send you a bookmark. So I got a bookmark today in the mail. And you know, I did have a book come out recently. So that is a good thing. And also, I had ice cream, which was fantastic.
What flavor?
What's it called when it's the three flavors? Neapolitan? Chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry?
Mm. Mm hmm.
Like, there were pieces in it, and I was like, Is this actual strawberry? Or is this simulated texture? I wasn't sure, but I didn't really question it. I was like, I'm just eating it. It's good.
Oh, that sounds delicious. It's too cold for ice cream where I am, but also I'm a wimp, so.
Ice cream does actually sound very lovely.
my good thing is that my door frog escaped.
You have a door frog?
not on purpose. I got home one day, and there was just a little frog in between the two panes of glass of the storm door in the front. And I was very concerned, because I did not know how he got in there, and I did not know how he was going to get out. but I got home the other day, and he was gone! So, I assume he escaped. Because if not, he would still be there. Anyway, I was minutes away from breaking the glass of the door to get him out. I was very worried.
He lives to doorfrog another day.
did you take pictures?
I should have. At the time I was very distressed. I was pretty sure that I was going to come back to a dead frog in my door later. but I didn't. So that's
yeah, I'm happy for you.
I'm happy for the frog. And for me. Yes, that's my good thing. he, he made it.
That's a good thing.
What is everyone drinking tonight? I'm being boring with herbal tea. It's nice and it's cold outside.
I have a small dram of whiskey and a large glass of water.
Well, that's very good. I have, this is not my drink of choice. I have a diet Pepsi and I don't usually drink diet Pepsi, but that's all I have in the house. So that's what I'm having. I usually drink Dr. Pepper, Dr. Pepper Zero. They changed it to zero. It's not diet anymore. So I usually drink that. I wouldn't have a beer on here because I would be too happy if I had a beer and start. Be weird, so.
Well, maybe next time we'll you. Yeah, have
me on again!
So other than skin thief, which we're about to discuss at length, has anyone read anything good lately?
I've had family visiting, as mentioned. Not a lot of time for reading.
I am currently reading, a novella by Tiff Morris, who is an Indigenous Canadian writer called Green Fuse Burning. her launch for the book is on Saturday, and it's from Stellaform Press. I don't know if you've heard of them before. They're a smaller press in Ontario, and they focus on not horror necessarily, but speculative fiction and eco fiction. it's really good so far, because it's like really interesting.
It's about a woman, I'm not gonna like spoil the end, well I'm not at the end anyways, I'm close to the end. and she's at this art residency, so then each chapter is like a description of a piece of art, and then like scary stuff is happening. in the chapters and it gets more and more scary. It's a weird town and, and the people are staring at her like she's a weirdo. It's really my kind of thing. and it's described as swamp core. Like, that's fantastic. Swamp core. Yeah. Oh,
that's great. that sounds better than what I'm reading. I've started the Final Girl Support Group by, I don't even remember the
Grady
Grady Hendrix. Yeah. I haven't read that.
Yeah, um, I've been interested in it for a while. I liked the concept. I have very mixed feelings about it so far. I'm about halfway through. I think part of it is that it's in conversation with these slasher films from the 80s. And so there's a lot of elements. of it that hearken back to that in a way that I don't love.
it that you don't like the way it does it or that you just are not a fan of slasher films from the 80s.
I've seen most of the main ones, I think.
Well, that doesn't mean that you're a fan of them necessarily.
To me, like, they have pluses and minuses. And I feel like the elements that this book is borrowing or referencing are not the ones that I would have called the best sides of them. And maybe that's on purpose? I'm only halfway through. So there's definitely space for the book to do something interesting with that. but it's supposed to be about the women who survive those crazy slasher events.
Final girls.
Yeah, the final girls. and all of the women characters are kind of, I don't know, it kind of feels like the book is going, there, there, you crazy psycho, bitch. which I don't like, but like I said, maybe it'll come around. I don't know. I don't know.
I have to interject. I'm going to do that a lot.
Please do.
so I've, gone through a shape shifter era and that has sort of ended and now I've become interested in final girls. So when you said that I got really excited because I just. I haven't read the book before, but I have it. Men, Women, and Chainsaws. And it's a, book about the theory behind gender and slasher movies. And where all this comes from. So it's, this topic. And. there are tons of, like, movies out now that sort of engage with that 80s trope.
And I'm very interested in finding a final girl novel, and I know they're out there, I just haven't spent a moment looking for them, written by a woman. Not to say that, you know, men can't write them, or people of other genders can't write that well, I'm just, interested in reading one by a woman. I'm obsessed with ACYs in a normal way.
And, she has a story out and, It's very hard to find now, but it's called Final Girl Theory, and it's about a woman who is the final girl in a movie and how it pursues her in her regular life, and it was like one of the best stories I've ever read on that topic. So if you're interested, you should look up Final Girl Theory by A. C. Wise. It's very good.
That does sound, better. And I think you have sort of hit on what makes me not really engage with the final girl support group is that it does feel like it's written by a dude. And I don't know, the mental health of survivors could be a really interesting topic. But when it's a man writing about all of these silly psycho ladies, it doesn't feel good.
Yeah, and, I've heard the critique of this theory book that I'm reading because it did come out in the 1990s, which is like a long time ago now, and, you know, they're like, oh, well, it doesn't, it doesn't hold up. Now, because, you know, we have different, concepts of gender. We've gone beyond binary, thankfully, but in the beginning of the book, she says the reason why the final girl is there is because teenage boys relate to that. They can identify with that character.
And so it's interesting. I've seen a lot of men do. books with women, final girls, and I'm like, okay, well, that's lovely, and nice, good for you, know, I haven't read them, so I don't want to say anything dismissive about them, but I'm really interested in seeing someone who is not a cis man, write that, and I know it's out there, I just have to go get it.
Absolutely. And there are plenty of male authors who write, really amazing female characters, even if they are, like, not. you know, perfect. they don't have to be like a good guy, right? You can still have an amazing female
No, you can be horrible. Yeah,
this just didn't feel like a good example of that. So far. There could be a crazy twist that brings it all together, and justifies all of the weirdness up until now. I'll probably finish it, but I'm not holding my breath.
I like that you were honest about it, though.
Oh, well, that's what we're here for. Buckle up. Now we're talking about the skin thief. sorry, skin thief, not the skin thief. no, I'm joking. We love this, collection.
I will give the caveat, I'm not normally a huge horror fan, but I actually really enjoyed all of the stories in here because it was the right level of like atmospheric horror and also all of the stories are pretty short so it wasn't drawn out. It was like the right amount. It was perfect for me is what I'm trying to say.
Good job. I get tired too.
Yeah,
it took me a long time to learn how to write a 7, 000 word story.
can you tell us more about that? what was that learning process like? What did you have to figure out?
I've been a big reader, but I was never a huge writer my entire life. Like, I wanted to write when I was younger, but I, I didn't really have much time to spend doing it. So, I knew about reading. And so when I started writing, I didn't know how to make plots complex enough to make them longer and at a natural length. I didn't understand how to construct a conflict in a way that could play out comfortably in 6, 000 words. And I've only learned to do that maybe two or three years ago.
And part of it was E. Catherine Tobler, I used to read Slush for Shimmer Magazine. I don't know if you guys remember, they closed now, but I used to read Slush. And she offered to read The Pull of the Herd, actually, the first story in the book. And that, story was rejected everywhere in the beginning, right? It was rejected everywhere. When I had originally written it, it was about 2, 000 words, maybe 2, 500. And she read it and it stopped at the part where I think they go to town or something.
And she said to me, this is really pretty and stuff, but you need another conflict in there to happen. So that it's a longer, more complicated arc. And when she told me that, something clicked in my brain. I started being able to write longer stories because of that, but I wrote that and then as it was, that story, Pull of the Herd, it got rejected everywhere. Oh my god, everybody rejected me and I was like, you guys. But, I mean. It was fine.
would you say that that story, in particular is the most different from its first draft or are there other stories that went through, like a similar, change and expansion? do you have any stories that are as printed, basically the same as, when you first drafted them?
Yeah, the last one, Duen, I can't even look at that story because it drives me nuts. It absolutely drives me nuts. That story, I had had the collection, in 2000, in 2020, I was like, you're strange. You keep writing about shapeshifters. This is really odd. I guess you'll put it in a collection at some point but I didn't have a due date. And then I, started writing more stuff. And I got to 2021 summer and I was like, okay, I have almost enough. I need a story.
I'm going to write a story and I know what it's going to be about. And it's going to be the end story of the collection. And I just, that's how that sounds, right? How I'm talking now is me with my very Canadian voice, right? And my very Canadian accent, but I actually like that.
in the story, that's how I would talk to my mother, that's how I talked when I was a kid, so it came out really, really just like how I would talk, but what drives me nuts about it is that it's inconsistent, sometimes I use a form of a word and sometimes I don't, and I struggled with that a lot, but in the end I was like, but that's how I sound, I'm in the middle. So I left it. So yes, that story was not read by anybody, was not edited by anybody, nobody beta read it. I just blip and put it up.
And then, and then it got nominated for the Nebula. And I was like, this is, I'm really shocked this, that this, has happened. Yeah,
gonna say, like, didn't it, wasn't it nominated for something?
it's award. And I like, I love that. Thank you very much. But also what, like, it shocks me every time. I'm so shocked. I'm grateful, but I'm shocked.
usually I would ask an author how they decided the order they want their stories to appear. but you told us, you answered my question before I could even ask it at the end of the collection. The stories are organized in order of, Canadian English through to Trinidad dialect,
Trinidadian,
Trinidadian, Trinidad dialect, and so, how did you decide the voice for each story? we heard about Duen just now.
you know, I read an interesting little essay, yesterday and it was from, what's that writer's name? It's on Blue Sky. K kj Charles. I think they are. and their essay was about how when you write a story, you assume that, character or a character in a story is a bag of traits. So you'll be like, okay, well, this person is jealous and I have all my characters are miserable and have bad qualities.
So this person is jealous and this person is envious and They're sad and they're lonely and they feel like a loser. So these are their quality. This is their character, right? But the thing is, I think, and I agreed with their point. Their point was, is that character isn't just little things that you sprinkle in. It has to. Be their voice, right? everything they say, every word that you put on the page, it has to sort of illustrate those character traits.
And so I think how I decided the voices when I sit down to write a story, I sometimes come up with like a conflict, but what I really come up with is an emotional conflict. So someone is jealous. It's about something. And so that emotion, the main one, it's not the only one, but that emotion dictates the way their voice sounds in the story.
you say that you will come up with this emotional conflict, does that mean that you tend to plan out your stories? Like, what's your process like?
No, I don't, I, don't know what I'm doing most of the time. Like I have an idea now because, Elise E. Catherine Tobler had sat me down and said, okay, you need to make your stories longer. and she drew this diagram and she showed me, okay, this is how I set up conflicts. And so what I do is I can't, I can't explain it without drawing it. And I don't have a, pen and your listeners won't see the drawing, but like I make a triangle page. And then each point in the triangle is like a conflict.
Okay. Right? And because it's a triangle, everybody's conflict is interacting with each other. And so that is the extent of the planning out that I do. So, for example, if you take the story Pull of the Herd, okay, so you've got the main character, that's this point, and then you've got you know, the herd people is that point and then the society and her girlfriend is the other point and then I make sure that there's conflict going.
Each way for each thing and that's how I kind of figure out the story. I don't usually sit down and say in this scene this will happen or in that scene that will happen. I don't do stuff like that because I find it constricting for me. There's nothing wrong with that. I know people do that. It's just for me, I tend to, if I make an outline. I don't, come up with really creative ideas. I'm very bad at that. So I need the space in order to write something better.
Was there a story in this collection that particularly surprised you while you were writing it?
Okay, Laughter Among the Trees. I wouldn't say that it surprised me, but That is a story that I'm most uncomfortable about, personally, because there are some things in there that are really, I find, disturbing, and I was surprised that I wrote that, and that I put it out there, and then I was surprised at the response, because I was like, Guys, this is, this is bad. And they were like, yeah, we like the story. And again, I'm not saying I'm not, grateful. I love it.
I love that people liked it, but I was also like, you know, if I read this, I would think that Susan is a disturbed person and you see their silence now. So it could be,
I mean, aren't we all though? And isn't that why it resonates with people?
maybe that's what I was going for.
if that's the story that surprised you most, would you say that you have a favorite story in the collection?
You know, most writers, when you ask this question, they go, Choose between my children? I love all of them! Right? Like, that's what they usually say. But, I'm gonna choose. I like Apolepisi but I like it from a technical... standpoint. most stories, when I read them over, like, I can't read the book. I have a really hard time reading it because all I see are mistakes. I read the stories and because, you know, you're continually improving. I see what I would write differently.
I see how I would phrase it differently. I see words that I've repeated like, Within four sentences of each other, and I'm like, oh, I want to take that out and change it. But that story, every time I read it, and it's the only one like that, I am still satisfied with how I wrote it. I really like that one for that reason.
That one was heartbreaking
Yeah,
the end. Yeah,
sorry.
all right.
That is the story that I get the most, commentary and mail. About And again, I welcome this. Like, I'm very happy that it affects people, but it's, not generally mail. That is like, Oh, I read your story. I get a lot of confessional. Emails, people telling me very personal things about grief or coming out or other things that they share with me because of that story. And I find that really, I like it. I'm happy that they connect with it.
yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot to it that resonates, which is not to say that that's untrue of the other stories, because there's, a lot in there that resonates as well, but I think that one in particular,
It's interesting because everybody has a different story that they like, or everybody has a different one that they Relate to. I like to hear what people relate to because it's kind of like astrology.
Do you think there's a difference between the one that a reader relates to versus what a reader would consider their favorite? Or do you think those tend to be the same?
I have an answer for that.
Yeah, you answer. You
Yeah, I was, I was gonna say that mine are, mine are different too because, I think my favorite story was probably Kill Jar, which is the story about the, girl who grows up, and is actually a snake, and I just thought it was so neat, like, I loved the way that as the reader, we start to suspect what she is before she starts Yeah. To suspect what she is.
Oh, really? Is that how, is that what happened? I have not heard any response. I don't know. I know, like, some people have said they like that story, but I have no idea what's going on. so did you suspect before?
yeah,
When did you suspect?
when, when was it? I don't know exactly. I think it was before, she started hearing the voice, of the other snake. I think it was when she like, Was first feeling the connection between the currents in the ground. And I was like, I wondered there has been enough specific information about snakes about this particular snake at this point. And there's a lot that's Kind of hinted at about her mother that I just, I wonder if maybe, and then like as time goes on, we get more and more information.
And I was like, okay, yeah, I'm pretty sure that I know what's happening, but like not in a way that made it feel, like, you know, sometimes when you figure out a plot point in a book, you're like, man, I saw this coming from miles away. This is so unsatisfying. That was not what this was like. This was like, I see what's coming and I'm really enjoying. seeing it unfold.
That's good. I'm glad. I,
yeah,
I haven't heard. I had two people read it, before I Put it in the book, and, they didn't really tell me what they thought about that part.
yeah, no, I, I loved it.
What was wrong? This is wrong, that's wrong.
it was perfect. No,
Sarah, I think it's hilarious that that's your favorite because it's the one I would consider the most horror. Because you have that, like, the slow build and the slow unraveling of the mysteries and the house is getting more tense and you're realizing that the father is worse and worse with every word and just sort of that, like, creeping tension,
I agree that it's the most horror, but it's, contained enough. That it doesn't, like, scare I'm a wimp. Like, like, a lot of horror is just too much for me. But this was contained enough that it wasn't overwhelming. and was still within my levels of, like, enjoyable. but yeah, I think it probably was the most horror. It was very atmospheric.
fascinating. This is fascinating.
I think I am tied between two, Propagating Peonies and The Bride, and I think it's because those stories are both about, women who find happiness because they take their destiny into their own hands, to two very different ends, and part of what I loved about Propagating Peonies was that it's a, or at least I thought it was a happy ending, that it was happy because of a breakup, which you don't see a lot. but I think breakups should be considered triumphant if that's what should have happened.
Well, she was having a bad time. Like,
Yeah.
like, waiting around, forever, and it's like, you know, trying to be patient, and trying to learn from the situation, like, what is this situation supposed to be teaching me so that the next time, it turns out better.
What can I do better? Is that like refrain that I think a lot of women hear a lot of times in their own head?
yeah,
Yeah. Mm hmm.
how can I be more patient? How can I fix this? how can I be there for you perfectly?
and then the flip side, the bride is, the main character is just like, yeah, this is me. This is what I want. I'm going to make it happen. Everyone else can go jump off a cliff. I don't care. It's great.
thanks, that, that is a, I don't know if we're doing like,
Typically we would have a section where we warn people that there's spoilers, but there's just so many short stories, I think that'd be too difficult to do. So it's just, we can
perfect. that story is interesting because it's from a folktale that I learned when I was a child. And, my mother told me, like, I don't think, Sarah, you would have been okay with my childhood because it was all scary things all the time.
the other hand, maybe I would have a much higher tolerance for scary stuff if I had been told more scary things when I was a kid.
Right? So, as a kid, like, I knew this story and it was about this woman the one thing was, though, that she wasn't dangerous to other women. in general, she was dangerous to men.
And I don't know, I feel like Trinidadian folklore is really important and it should be preserved and we should keep the originals around, because it's really important to our history, but I like taking them and making them gay and turning, flipping things around, so I really enjoyed that because I have not read many queer retellings of our folktales, though I'm sure they exist. I haven't read many of them and so I enjoyed that because I made it queer.
it's interesting that you included the caveat that we should keep the originals, but aren't the originals so important for the retellings? Because you have to have that source material I mean, the, bride stands on its own as a story for sure, but knowing that it has those roots makes it more. And the source material, I don't know, I started talking and didn't know where I was going with this sentence.
You're saying source material is important, Right. Right.
I guess I'm saying, I don't think retellings erases the source material.
no, I don't think so either. I feel though with my particular situation and where I'm from. Right? So Trinidad basically has less than 2 million people. That, like, that's the population right now. So I think it's 1, 500, 000 people there, which is less than Toronto, or less than, I don't know where you live, but probably about the population of most large North American cities. And so when I write a story like that, most people don't know about that fairy tale, who are outside of that.
Culture people in the Caribbean other islands will know about it, but other people don't and so when I present that fairy tale, it's not like in the way that we have like, little red riding hood where a lot of people know that fairy tale and know the source material. they don't know probably the grim version. Exactly, but they kind of know the base points of the story.
and so I think that's why I say it's important to preserve ours because when I, do that story, I don't know if you've heard that folktale before. So I don't know if you know that it's a retelling or if it's a remix or, or what it is. If that makes sense.
Absolutely. Yeah. Do you think that the reader's experience would be significantly different if they have no knowledge of the original folklore versus if they do know it?
I do. I absolutely do because, people in Trinidad get different things out of the story. the bride has some funny parts in it. and I'm not saying that other people don't get it, but they kind of get that part. and also they kind of know what the story is and for them, it's, it's kind of like, oh, this is different. Like, it is a big change for them. Whereas other people, they wouldn't experience it as, oh, this is different. They'd be like, this is a story. Okay, I'm reading the story.
It's good. they're not comparing the points and being like, oh, this has diverged at this point. We don't tell it like that. We tell it like this. So there's that dialogue going on with them, whereas that doesn't happen. And that would happen with any culture, right? Like if someone told me a Welsh folktale and it re retold or retelling. I wouldn't know if it was a retelling because I don't know those folktales. I'd be like, oh, that's interesting.
But someone who grew up with that story would know immediately that, oh, this has diverged.
there are nuances that you get if you are part of the culture, that you don't experience as someone outside it, yeah.
You have to have expectations in order to subvert them. I've definitely read similar stories from a couple of different cultural backgrounds of the idea of the skin changer and someone trying to take their skin away from them. It's an interesting...
that from the Selkie. that's where it came from. And I was thinking about all of these stories where, and I've read many of them and I have, again, I'm not complaining. I don't have a problem, but, I read a lot of stories where, you know, it's a story and there is a woman and a man has stolen her skin and she's very sad.
And she, you know, he abuses her and we go through the story and then she finally escapes and she gets her skin and she runs away and I was thinking about that and I was like, I want to write a story where she doesn't like the skin and she keeps trying to get rid of it or she doesn't want it. It doesn't fit her. Cause, there's nothing wrong with the original, I just was, I want to change it. So that's how that came about. That was the emotional conflict.
The emotional conflict was, not that her skin had been stolen and she wanted it back, that she wanted to get rid of it and she couldn't and she was really upset about that. That's where that story started.
It's a nice way to, subvert expectations there. Are there any, like, folktale or legends that you haven't, written about but that you want to in the future?
I really like retellings and, things, um, you've stumped me.
I mean, you're welcome to say no,
You did them all.
I'm sure I do. like, her voice unmasked. I have an obsession with Phantom of the Opera. So that was me doing Phantom of the Opera, right? And Personal Wreck Chassis is, you know, Depeche Mode, Personal Jesus, that song. That was me being like, well, what if it's not Jesus? Another, thing. That's how that story started. So, like, I really like doing that. I don't think there are folktales at the moment I'm obsessed with, but I'm sure I will find something.
But I am very obsessed with rewriting classic literature. So I just finished, It's out in Wilted Pages, in an anthology, and it's a retelling of the cask of Amontillado, but it's sci fi and queer. And my novella next year is a retelling of The Count of Monte Cristo, so I'm obsessed with these kind of things.
Those both sound fascinating.
Yeah, I can't wait.
I hope they are! I'm gonna try!
So... This collection focuses heavily on women's stories, especially relationships, and then also mother daughter relationships. Can you tell us more about decision, or was it even a conscious decision?
I've said this, in other places. I'm a woman, so that kind of is part of my life and you know, it's how I approach things. but around 2020, I started being like, Susan, you keep writing about women and women's relationships and shape shifting and you obviously have some kind of issue. That you are working on and I did and so I think a lot of it is just my personal problems and my personal sort of internal obstacles with myself. And so I don't think it was a conscious decision.
I think I've been working out a lot of my issues with this book. It was therapy. This book.
so I know that, at least some of the stories were previously published elsewhere. Were there any that you wrote specifically for, this collection, or did you pull them all from, work that you had done for other places?
Killjar, I wrote for this, specifically. And I wrote, Dwen for it, specifically, because I only had, I ten stories, and I was like, I need two more. I had the ideas to write them. So it's not like I just sat down and I'm like, okay, we're gonna make up something and throw it together. Like, the ideas were there, but those were written specifically for the book.
But then while I was waiting for somebody to buy the book, I was sitting there for a while and I was like, well, I do have Dwen and it's 6k, so I'll just send it out and see if anybody will buy it. And if they buy it, that's fine, because I still have the novelette. And then they bought it, so that was good.
They bought it and it's nominated for awards now.
Win win.
Yeah, I'm really grateful, I don't know how these things happen.
so, genre. I feel like everyone has different definitions of genres. It's a very personal, thing. What do you consider the genres of this collection?
I really like gothic horror, and I think, Sarah, you might like gothic horror more than other horrors, because you like Killjar,
I do think that gothic horror is, more for me than other genres of horror, it's true.
Yeah, Lily, do you like gothic horror? You're reading Final Girls.
so Gothic Horror is more my steam. Yeah. we read Mexican Gothic, or I did, a couple years ago. It was very good. Oh, that was fantastic, yeah. also a more modern, you know,
Mm hmm, take on it.
yeah. but no, I love Gothic Lit. It's fun. It's so, well, the older stuff is so dramatic and over the top.
I love how extra it is. It's so extra. It's like, oh my god, I'm dying. I love it. so I really like gothic horror. And I kind of have that sort of melodrama emotion thing going throughout, I think. But genre is a thing that people use for marketing. And so I said dark fantasy and horror because there are a few stories that kind of have a magic system. Like, Of Claw and Bone is kind of like, there's a, magic system going. And Apolepisi is like a fantasy story. There's secondary world building.
I don't think the book is very, very hard hitting horror, to my tastes. So, I would say, like, I think it's dark fantasy, and I think it's like, Literary, gothic horror. it's not stab you in the face. I mean, there is violence, but it's not gory in that way. There's body horror, but it's not torture. No, there's torture a bit, but it's not that bad.
It's more unsettling.
Yeah, like that kind of thing. Though, there are people, science fiction and fantasy readers. Who get pointed to the collection because of, you know, the nebula nomination or something. And I always find it really funny. These poor people, because the stories are in a magazine called the dark, right?
And. they are very, very fantasy and science fiction oriented, and not always, but these type of readers like positive stories, and they will read this story, and the comment will be, this was very dark, and I'll be like, well, the magazine says the dark, so
Yeah.
You should have known what you were getting into.
Yeah, it's dark. Like, hello. And then they'll be like, this was really dark. it's fine. It doesn't upset me. I just find it really funny.
Just like a, yes, you're correct, gold star.
Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm kind of almost gonna cry laugh. Cause it just makes, it makes me laugh so hard. Poor people.
so, what is one thing that you love about the current state of science fiction, fantasy, and horror? And what is one thing that you wish you saw more of?
Oh god. you're gonna get me put in jail. Okay, let's start with what I love. I really like that there are more diverse works being put out. seeing a lot of stuff from different cultures. mean, we can always have more. It's like, you know, we're not at the end of that. That's an ongoing project. I also like seeing how many more queer stories there are. I like seeing how, there are more stories about people who are not affluent or, things like that. I like all of that diversity.
see it more in short fiction. I'm seeing it in novels and stuff. I really like that a lot. and I like how enthusiastic people are generally about supporting different things. people talk a lot about how nobody cares and stuff like that, but that's not true. There are people who care and they, run kickstarters or they put together magazines or special issues.
There are people who are trying really hard and I feel like sometimes they need a little pat on the back because you're like, you know, you're trying your best and yeah, it sucks. Lots of things suck. The industry right now is really. feeling kind of apocalyptic, and in the midst of all of that, there are people still trying to do things, and I really like that not give up attitude that they have. So that's what I like. Okay, so what was the question exactly? The wording of your question?
What would you like to see more of? We gave it a positive spin.
Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go off now, and I apologize. Don't please don't have hurt feelings, and it's not directed at you because you're not the perpetrators of this. I'm sorry. So, this is gonna get me in trouble. so I, started off saying I like diversity, and I like all of the queer stories that we're seeing, and I like all of this stuff. something I do not like that I'm seeing, and I don't want to say everyone's doing it.
I don't want to say you know, it's this person who's doing it or any of these things, but just generally, I know we've been through the pandemic and it's been bad times for everybody and not everybody likes to read dark work when it's been bad times. sometimes people want an escape, or sometimes people want to imagine worlds. That can be better. And I think all of that is great. And I think They should have that. Like, people should be allowed to have happy stories.
People should be allowed to have stories where people win in the end, and hope doesn't die, and all of these things. I love all of that. What I dislike is when people conflate person who writes hopeful stories with the morality of the person themselves. So if I write happy ending stories, or if I write love and puppies, then I must be a good person. And I have a very hard time with that, because that's not the way the world works. you know, and I have been seeing since we're in this kind of.
era where people are doing a lot of censorship and there's a lot of like, you know, book banning. There are a lot of people saying, you know, we don't want to see sex in books and movies. We don't want to see violence. We don't want to see any of these things. And it worries me because it feels like censorship, but not saying censorship.
it's like, oh, I want happy stories, I want positive this, and it's like, yeah, you can have that, but it's not just, I want that, it's, you should not be able to write dark things, and if you write dark things, then there's something wrong with you, and that part, I don't like. I don't know if you guys have seen something like that, but
Yeah.
I'm bad at social media. I could definitely see that narrative coming up in horror. I think I've definitely seen it around Well, ironically, villain characters, like, oh, a bad guy did a bad thing, that means the author supports that? And that's just so easy to refute, because you're like, that's literally the villain. Where are you even getting this from?
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that I've seen that a little bit. people conflating the idea that just because I don't want to see something in fiction means that you shouldn't be writing it. those are two separate things. You're allowed to not want to read something, but that doesn't mean that someone shouldn't be able to write it if that's what they want to write. The conflation
of I like this, and therefore it's good, or I don't like it, and therefore it's bad. Or it's like, it can be, well, luckily Sarah and I have very different tastes, so we often find ourselves reading books where one of us will have to go, this was a great book, and it wasn't for me.
yep.
Right. And so, that's been going on. I have a lot of opinions. But I'll leave it there.
Well, thank you for sharing. I agree, not every book is written for every person, and that's good. we need that.
I like writing people who are very flawed, or who have something like they're jealous, or they're upset, or they're resentful, or they feel guilty. I, I like stories like that. Like that's what I'm drawn to, because that's relatable to me, because I feel all those things.
I do not personally relate characters who are like so nice and I do everything perfectly and everyone's been so mean to me like I mean yeah I do whine and say everyone's being mean to me but I don't, I don't feel like that inside I feel like I'm responsible for things it's not just that everyone hurts me I'm a human and I have responsibilities and sometimes I hurt people or I do the wrong thing and so I like stories about people who are Like that.
Well, I think oftentimes the most interesting stories are the ones where the characters are nuanced, and the story is nuanced, and it's not clear cut. I mean, I say that as someone who loves a happy story, but, I do think that, the more interesting stories are often the ones that are not just, Happy, fluffy, you know, puppies and roses.
These are good too, but like,
Yeah, they have, their time and place.
we need everything. It's funny because you guys have different tastes and you can kind of almost see it too in your backgrounds. Like, you've got this like, bright, sunny background, and then there's these dark shelves and there's a velvet curtain. Is it a curtain?
It is a curtain. I wish it was
Yeah, it's very representative.
Yeah, and I think there's value in reading things that, you know, you don't enjoy. And then you can interrogate what worked for you and what didn't work for you. And you figure out what your tastes are and, You kind of get to know yourself better through that and that's one of the reasons why I love reading books that, I mean, love and hate reading books that are, that are not for me on the podcast. it's not fun, but it is enjoyable.
Well, you, you do learn things. You're right. You do learn things and it's good to see other people's perspective and Just as much as I don't like a certain thing. I can see why other people like it Like I get why somebody would want a happy Fluff story, right? Like, it makes sense to me. So, that's why I'm able to be like, It's okay, you can have that. You should have that. You shouldn't have to search for it. You should get it. I just want the same thing. Reciprocal.
Yeah.
Absolutely. Uh,
this isn't normally where I would ask this question. This is actually a question for Sarah. but near the end of our conversations, we ask who should read this book, which is specifically phrased. It's not, is it a good book? Do not do we recommend the book, but every book has someone who would like it.
Don't recommend it. It's fine. We thoroughly do not recommend this book. Oh my god.
I think, who should read this book? if you're on the fence about horror or like dark fantasy, I think actually this is a great Book to read, because everything is short and contained and not, so spooky gory that you're hiding under your covers. if you like really atmospheric stories, this is also great. and I, I would, I'm sorry Susan, but I would recommend this book.
Oh my god. Um,
Susan, what would you like readers to take away from this collection?
when I sit down to write a story, people have asked me what do I want the readers to feel, and I can't control what people feel. I don't know. how they are going to react to what I'm writing or what I'm going to say. People always ask me, how do you make readers feel afraid? And I'm like, I don't know how to make someone else feel afraid. I only know how to make myself feel afraid. So I want them to take what they find.
it's a really personal book and every story is Not based on an actual event, obviously, because I'm not an automaton, or I'm not a mermaid, or any of these things, but all of the emotional cores of each of the stories is something that I felt, and so what I hope readers take away from it is their own connection and relation to their own life, because I can't really Dictate to them what they think or feel and because it's so personal, I hope that if they are sort of having any kind of, like,
emotional conflict or in need of therapy, like how I need therapy that they would feel like, you know, oh, I felt that way before or, I connected with that or they find some sort of emotional connection generally, but in terms of their own life, not anything that I could change in them Some validation of their own thoughts and feelings
Fantastic. Well, I would say you succeeded, but, uh, you only have a poll of two, so I don't know how statistically significant that is.
book is very, different than short stories and I know that sounds kind of silly when I'm saying it, but I've, only been writing short stories and short stories, you know, they come out and then people read them and then, you know, you hear back. sometimes you don't, sometimes it doesn't get much traction and you don't hear anything. But sometimes if you get in right at the right time, you hear back. A book is different. You put this book out, right, and you're sitting at home and that's it.
Like, you don't hear it. I don't know. I've had some reviews. I've heard, like, you guys have talked about it. But I don't know what's going on with the book. I hope, I hope people like it. Okay.
Well, right now you're at a 100 percent success rate, so don't ask anyone else.
That's it.
I'm kidding.
I don't need anybody else.
There you go. well, thank you so much for coming on and talking with us about this incredible collection. What can our listeners look forward to from you in the near or distant future?
So I'm going to be in. Why didn't you just leave Anthology That is edited by Nadia Boken and Julia Rios. And then Neon Hemlock has a anthology called the Crawling Moon Anthology. I'm going to be in that next year. And then I have my novella, which I just got edits for yesterday, which is called Countess. And it's a departure for me! It's a space opera!
Ooh.
I don't know. What happened? I was just like, okay, we're gonna write a space opera. And so I wrote a space opera, and it's a Caribbean, queer, gender swapped, Count of Monte Cristo in space. So like, you, have you read Count of Monte Cristo?
A long, long, long, long, long time ago.
I really like Count of Monte Cristo, because it's a revenge story. And, This book is all like, this woman, she gets betrayed, and then she's all like, oh, I'm gonna get revenge, and that's what she does.
Good for her.
No, forgiveness!
And this is, coming out when you say?
fall next year, fall 2024. I got the edits, so it looks like it's actually happening. Like, they're not going to resend it. the editor, I was like worried. I was like, maybe it sucks. I don't know. And then she messaged and she was like, no, it's good. And I was like, okay, so we're still doing this. Yeah,
you have it in writing, you have confirmation. Okay.
she can't, she can't run away from me.
Oh, well, I can't wait to read that.
that sounds incredible and I'm really looking forward to it. In the meantime, where can you be found on the internet so listeners can keep up with news about that novella, can hear from you for new things that are coming out?
Okay, so I'm on the dying hell site at Silly Syntax. I won't go on about that, but yes, I'm on there. And then I'm on Blue Sky, which seems to be functioning okay. Silly syntax again. And then I'm on Instagram, with lots of pictures, because that's what you're supposed to do there. At Gothic Syntax. It's a really bad website that I really need to, like, fix. And it's susanpolumbo. wordpress. com I think If you type in Susan Palumbo on the, search engine, I show up.
You do. There is also a dead Susan Palumbo who shows up, and I was like, hold on,
Really?
yeah,
Dead person. say the dead Susan. I mean, I'm sorry they died.
there was that moment where I was like, is she going to be coming onto our podcast from beyond the grave?
she die? I mean, if I died, I would have probably hoped somebody would have told you.
Well. In any case, I did eventually find you and I found your website. Everything was fine. You are Searchable, but thank you again for hanging out with us this evening. I had a great time. I'm very excited to read Countess. And everyone should go out and read Skin Thief. It was fantastic. Is it out now?
Yes, it's on Amazon, it's on everywhere, Well, thank you very much for having me. I'm sorry I rambled on so much. But it was lovely and you had absolutely lovely questions.
Well, thank you. It was wonderful meeting you. I did really genuinely love this collection. I force Sarah to read spooky books every October. And when we find one that we both like, it's a success.
Yeah, I, I have to say, I think that this has been my favorite, Spooky Month book that we've read. for this year's Spooky Month, and I think we're at this point done with all of our Spooky Month reading, so, you won!
You made it, Sarah. You survived.
spooky month is spooky month. It sounds so cute. Spooky month.