The Future of Social Media: Trends and Impact - podcast episode cover

The Future of Social Media: Trends and Impact

Oct 08, 202441 min
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Episode description

Global connectivity or fragmented realities? Professor Vicki Katz from Chapman University joins us to unpack the complex impact of social media on media literacy. This episode promises to illuminate how social platforms, while bridging distances, also fracture our information landscape. Curious about how this affects our ability to discern truth and the role of legislation in this dynamic? Listen in as we examine Section 230's influence on accountability and the shifting trust in mainstream media, guided by Dr. Katz’s expertise and the experiences of Jewish American students navigating diverse media worlds.

Higher education finds itself at a crossroads, grappling with "techno-pugilism" in the classroom. We discuss the modern educator's challenge: engaging students amid polarized and uncivil discourse without sacrificing critical thinking or civil dialogue. Learn how AI and virtual reality are reshaping teaching methods, as educators strive to inspire students to approach contentious topics fearlessly and thoughtfully. This chapter highlights the importance of modeling adulthood and the delicate balance between embracing diverse perspectives and the looming threat of being "canceled" for controversial stances.

Political polarization and the faux connections of social media are tearing at the fabric of society, but there is hope in genuine human interaction. Drawing on Chris Bale's "Breaking the Social Media Prism," we explore how a vocal minority distorts perceptions of extremism and what this means for moderates yearning for normalcy. Discover the potential for authentic engagement in education, as we reflect on creating spaces for meaningful dialogue beyond digital screens. The episode concludes by reaffirming that these true human experiences are essential for a balanced life in our increasingly digital world.

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The Center for Demographics and Policy focuses on research and analysis of global, national, and regional demographic trends and explores policies that might produce favorable demographic results over time. It involves Chapman students in demographic research under the supervision of the Center’s senior staff.

Students work with the Center’s director and engage in research that will serve them well as they look to develop their careers in business, the social sciences, and the arts. Students also have access to our advisory board, which includes distinguished Chapman faculty and major demographic scholars from across the country and the world.

For additional information, please contact Mahnaz Asghari, Associate Director for the Center for Demographics and Policy, at (714) 744-7635 or [email protected].

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This show is presented by the Chapman Center for Demographics and Policy, which focuses on research and analysis of global, national and regional demographic trends and explores policies that might produce favorable demographic results over time.

Transcript

Speaker 1

The Feudal Future .

Speaker 2

Podcast .

Speaker 1

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Feudal Future Podcast . I'm Marshall Teplansky , I'm Joel Kotkin and today we are delighted to have with us Dr Vicki Katz , professor of Communication at Chapman University . Vicki , welcome .

Speaker 3

It's a pleasure to be here .

Speaker 1

Your expertise is social media and we have been looking forward to this podcast for a long time because we need to have some clarity around social media . Joel , you want to kick ?

Speaker 2

us off . Basic question that we'll start with is is social media making a generation of morons ?

Speaker 3

I wouldn't say that making a generation of morons . I wouldn't say that we have a generation that are growing up more interconnected in some ways than any generation on earth has been . They carry the world in their pockets , but it does come with its benefits and it comes with its costs .

One of those costs is that it's fraying their attention because they get interrupted when they're doing tasks that matter .

One of the other things is , when we talk about complex or contentious or politically polarizing issues , is that social media as a medium flattens information into things that have very little , if any , nuance , into things that have very little , if any nuance , things that have very clear sides , and very few of the complex issues that these young people are going to

inherit cleanly fit into a hashtag or can be summed up in a single picture .

Speaker 1

Well , how did we ? I was going to ask how we became this gullible , but I guess the real question is are we ? Are people more gullible today than they have been in previous parts of history ?

And it seems to me , when you take we're getting close to the election right now and we just had this incredible brouhaha around Haitian immigrants eating people's pets in Springfield , ohio , which just seemed to be an absurd , absurd point of view that , on its face , people would normally challenge why aren't we seeing kind of critical pushback ?

Are we more gullible than we've been in the past ?

Speaker 3

I'm not a historian so I can't say for sure , but we are operating in a more fragmented information system than we ever have , so we don't have a sort of shared sense that we're all getting the same facts and information . We are a long way from Walter Cronkite .

That's all the news for tonight , and that changes things , because people don't behave as if we are part of one shared national community where we have shared facts about which we all have different feelings . We don't even agree on the facts at this point .

There's so much misinformation to the point that a candidate for a major political party can have somebody you know with misinformation talking into his , his ear before a presidential debate about dogs and cats in Springfield . Did make for some fantastic Simpsons memes .

Speaker 1

Oh , totally , totally . Springfield is relevant Back on the back on the map , again 100 percent . But you know , this was presented to us , this whole notion of the public square . It was presented to us as a democratization of information . Right , but isn't there some kind of responsibility that goes along with the democratization of information ?

Speaker 3

One would think , but we've never regulated social media the way we regulate other communication technologies . Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act means that they're not responsible for anything that happens on their platforms . They're merely carriers of information , which made a lot more sense before things like Meta had whole news departments .

They are absolutely producing content , they absolutely have a role to play in combating misinformation and disinformation on their platforms , but they're not legally required to do it , and so they quote unquote self-regulate .

Speaker 2

It doesn't work out . I think part of the reason that social media gets the approval it gets to some extent in terms of people's loyalties is they don't trust the mainstream media because the mainstream media , which I spent most of my life in , can't be trusted . I mean , I literally .

You know , as I say , I also teach in the comm department and you know , one of the things that I find is as bad as social media is mainstream media just leaves out anything that doesn't follow the narrative . The trust levels of the big media is the lowest it's ever been and , by the way , the same thing's true in Europe .

Speaker 3

Yeah , and these things are not mutually exclusive because for a lot of young people , especially the mainstream media content that they're receiving , they're getting in their social media feeds .

The difference is that , because we don't know how the algorithms work , they don't know why they're getting this news story from the New York Times , not that news story from the New York Times , whereas somebody who's actually visiting the main page can sort of navigate and differentiate what they want .

I will say that I've spent this past year interviewing Jewish American students all over the country , undergraduates and their non-Jewish friends , with whom they've had good conversations about the conflicts in the Middle East and conditions in the US on campuses .

They are often very thoughtful consumers and one of the ways that they do that is that they don't count on any one news source . Not to be biased .

They read widely , they read international versus domestic , they read things that they know will be kind of left of center , right of center , but they really feel like they're creating a media ecosystem of their own because they don't think there is one source that's going to give them the news .

Speaker 1

That's very interesting , the idea that they would turn into discriminating consumers who are looking to get multiple points of view .

How prevalent do we sense that is as a reaction , Because the sense that I get is kind of the opposite , which is that people decide oh okay , the magnetism of this particular medium is going to draw me in , I'm going to become an acolyte or a zealot of that particular perspective and lock out the other perspectives .

So this discriminating behavior , do you think it's widespread ? Do you think it's or do you think it's not prevalent ?

Speaker 3

There are two things happening at once , or do you think it's not prevalent ? There are two things happening at once . We know from good data from Pew and other places that young people overwhelmingly have very imbalanced media diets .

There's way too much coming from social media versus other sources , and the more that people rely on social media as their primary part of their diet , the more likely they are to not have , you know , sort of basic political literacy about things that are going on , to not know current events , and they're more likely to have heard conspiracy theories .

So , it's like doubly bad , and so that's definitely happening , it's definitely in play . But no group of people are a monolith . So when it comes to an issue that they care about a lot like young Jews around the Middle East conflict around what's happening on campuses they go much broader .

Speaker 2

So when it's an issue that they want more than a surface reading on , when they're motivated , they go deeper and they go broader you know , with young Latino kids and you know you're talking about people maybe whose parents don't speak English , maybe who are not in a situation to have you know , maybe they don't go to the best schools , they're not getting the

information in other ways . There have been articles which have said that , for instance , tiktok has really led to a very strong anti-Israel orientation . I mean , is there some way in which that this kind of thing is particularly dangerous for people who maybe are starting off with sort of less literacy ?

Maybe they didn't come from a house which , like some of us , were two , three newspapers landing on the driveway every morning ?

Speaker 3

So I don't think that that's limited to sort of any one group or any one background . I think it's more about people for whom this issue is brand new , right that maybe they couldn't have pointed this area of the world out on a map prior to October 7th or October 8th .

Speaker 2

Maybe they still can't . Probably you know which river and which sea remains a thorny question , right .

Speaker 3

But if you're new to an issue , you're very impressionable and you know Galloway at NYU and others have talked at length in really thoughtful ways about the research we know , about the proportion of TikTok that is pro-Israel versus pro-Palestine and it is , you know , the sort of so-called pro-Palestinian content is outnumbering pro-Israel by 20 to one , maybe more , Right ?

So just the likelihood , given that we don't know the algorithms are black boxed , we don't know why certain people are getting certain things and others aren't , but the likelihood that you're getting feeds that have much more content that presents one side versus both is enormous . And what does that do ? Right , what ? What does it do ? What does it ?

Speaker 1

mean for ? What does it mean for the destruction of confidence in institutions in general ? And B ? What does it mean for the likelihood that you will be continued to be fed the perspective that you're , that the algorithm thinks that you want right , so how do you break that up ?

Speaker 3

Well , and it's not a great leap . I mean , if we're talking about tiktok , it's it's chinese owned . This is not not my claim , but it certainly makes sense to me that we have enemies that can't defeat us militarily not yet anyway .

Speaker 2

Not yet anyway , but being able to divide generations ideologically .

Speaker 3

Being able to divide generations ideologically , being able to divide within generations ideologically , is a way to weaken cultures from within .

Tiktok , would seem to me , and that kind of content around an issue that is as central to American foreign policy and to American identity as a question of Israel and Palestine , feels like a very good candidate to me for that sort of thing . Palestine feels like a very good candidate to me for that sort of thing .

Speaker 1

And you know , people smarter than me have done deep dives on this that I've found very compelling from an empirical perspective . There's been a lot . We're getting played . Yeah , we have been .

There's been a lot written around the Chinese long game of the 100-year marathon by Michael Pillsbury as an example , which basically points out that the Chinese are intentionally using these techniques to weaken the fabric of US society so that they can make gains politically a lot more easily .

So the question then becomes If the net result of all of this Tower of Babel noise is the destruction of trust in institutions , is there any strategy you can think of to get it back other than draconian , you know , crackdowns on media , which nobody wants to do ?

Speaker 3

I don't think those kind of crackdowns would work anyway . I mean the distrust in institutions has been happening decade over decade for a long time .

Speaker 2

But it's considerably worse .

Speaker 3

It's accelerating , there's no question . And part of why it's accelerating is having people in positions of leadership , having presidents who denounce the institutions that they themselves lead , which is a bit of a trick , right . But I think part of this is where you act to interrupt it , right .

And I think you know one of my contentions is one of the places we can act to interrupt this is in classrooms . It's you know , a lot of people have looked , rightfully , at what's you know happened on college campuses in the last year and said where are the adults ? You know , these are teachable moments .

I mean , there are young people who have protested on college campuses , who are motivated by , you know , sort of righteous moral , you know sort of horror at the idea of women and children .

You know , in harm's way , there's a moment there to teach about how we engage each other in rigorous civil discourse in ways that don't mean that we're shouting down another side or saying one side's children is more important than another side's . We've missed those for the most part .

And the crackdowns from college campuses on , you know those kinds of conversations , or just shuffling people off college campuses on , you know those kinds of conversations or just shuffling people off campus so that you know , graduations look good and everything else . We haven't taught them anything , we haven't challenged them , we haven't intervened .

Classrooms are where this has to happen . We have to start teaching young people how to get comfortable being uncomfortable . We need to teach them that there's no one way to look at any issue , even if one side's got more evidence than others the difference between empathy right where I try to understand a view I don't agree with and sympathy .

We have to start taking this generation more seriously and demanding that they take themselves more seriously , because they're inheriting a world that's complex and connected in ways that have never happened before .

It's going to require serious people to lead it and we're not going to manage that if we throw our hands up and say well , you know , social media has rotted all their brains . Well , it's time for the humans to step in and throw and throw up some friction right , well , and hopefully .

Speaker 1

Hopefully we can do . You know , as professors , we we get them for a very short period of time . You know , um , they , our students , are living in a world characterized by what I would call techno-pugilism . You know it , it's a everything is a fight , everything is polarized , everything . There's sides there's .

Let's battle it out with uncivil discourse in whatever medium you want outside of the classroom . I'm a little leery of the potential for us to really affect that in any meaningful way .

I think we can take people who have a predilection toward intelligent , analytical , civil discourse and help mold them , but I'm just concerned about whether that's just setting them up to , uh , to fail in the real world .

Speaker 2

Or maybe , if they stay in academia , for sure to fail . Because , I mean , one of the things that I find is that , like so many of the kids , I'll teach them . And they said , well , this is true . And I said , no , it's not . It's not remotely true .

You know , like one of my favorite students and I gave her an A , she's very smart who said , well , the problem for women is Western capitalism . And I said , well , there may be some case there , but have you ever been to China ? Have you ever been to Japan ? Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia ?

I think the advances of women in liberal capitalist societies are considerably better than they are other places . But if you're getting teachers who are just giving them this point of view , how are they ever gonna do it ? And so my worry is are too many professors we don't have to name names basically caving in to the short attention span idea ?

There was an article in the Chronicle of Higher Education where they basically said well , don't expect them to read and don't expect them to do anything other than sort of the most minimal kind of regurgitation . Is that a pressure that somehow is difficult to resist ?

Speaker 3

I think there are chilling effects , depending on what campus you're on , around teaching , how you teach certain topics , because especially people with less job security have real concerns about getting quote unquote canceled for questioning certain orthodoxies that have become sort of there's only one way to teach things . We have to push back collectively on that idea .

There's never one side of anything and these young people should be learning that there are different perspectives and then that you weigh the evidence rather than opinions . I tell my students all the time you don't have to go to college to have opinions . My five-year-old has opinions . He has a lot of them .

Speaker 2

It doesn't mean that they're more valuable than another five-year-old has opinions .

Speaker 3

He says that's a lot of them . It doesn't mean that they're more valuable than another five-year-old , but evidence we can weigh on its merits and that's one of the things we can push back with . I think that we underestimate this generation if we think they're not capable of more than that .

Speaker 1

I think that's right . That's good to hear . We have to motivate them and I'm going to push back a little bit on where you were coming from , joel . I think it's incumbent on the educator to adopt techniques that engage the students in ways that might be uncomfortable to the educator . What I find as a professor is that if somebody asked me , what do you do ?

And I said I'm a showrunner , really is the way I view my world . Right , I have to engage my audience in compelling ways that actually cater to the fact that they're consuming information and communication in a way that they way that I'm not used to right .

So I will use AI in the classroom or use virtual reality in the classroom to get them to focus on a particular issue , to then unlock their ability to talk .

But I don't know a lot of professors that are willing to go out of their comfort zone to be able to restructure the way they teach , to be able to engage people , and so that's a problem on the teacher side as well as the student side .

Speaker 3

Well , current events offer you all kinds of compelling ways to teach them right . I mean , I was teaching my class on communication and social change and civil discourse last fall and on October 9th we were supposed to cover how political worldviews get formed in the US . October 7th happens .

I walked in on October 9th and metaphorically sort of cleared the desk and said okay , we're going to talk about how political worldviews get formed somewhere else . And that class was an experimental course because I've taught it at Rutgers for years but hadn't taught it here . There are two Jewish students , no other students that had contact with the Middle East .

And I said for the rest of the semester well , what we're going to do , I'm not derailing the rest of the class , but I want you to see how what we've learned so far about political polarization helps you understand what we're about to see in real time . And I gave them the option . It was totally their choice .

I gave them extra things to read , extra things to listen to . Again , go to ways that they like to learn . Podcasts can be obviously very powerful educational tools . I don't have to tell you that , and I gave them the option of coming in 15 minutes early and that we'd go 10 minutes into class with their questions and ideas .

They didn't miss for the rest of the term oh , that's great .

Speaker 2

Yeah , no , that we are underestimating them .

Speaker 3

If we think that they're not interested , they need us to lead them they need us to show them what it means to be an adult . Well , and to and to show .

Speaker 1

Your point about professors being worried about cancel . Being canceled because they have unpopular beliefs is a valid one . I know a lot of people are concerned about it .

We've even invited some people to be on this podcast who have said no , I don't want to risk being on a podcast talking about these kinds of issues because I don't want to be associated with controversy . Well , guess what Time to do that ?

Right Time to step up and I think students seeing professors visibly taking positions and visibly participating in the public debate will inspire them to do the same thing .

Speaker 2

Well , it all depends on whether they take that into the classroom . I give you an example . My daughter at Sarah Lawrence had a professor on October 7th . The professor gets up and says I know some of you are upset , but I don't want to hear any neo-colonialist rhetoric .

Speaker 3

Well , you know , I mean .

Speaker 2

Other words , if you have a different view , that from this teacher , you better shut up .

Speaker 3

But that's a liberal . That is not what a liberal Western education is supposed to be . I always say to them when I teach about politics , you should walk out of this room , maybe with a hunch of what my own political beliefs are .

What I'm going to teach you is how to evaluate and understand things on all sides , but and this part's crucial , and we've gotten away from this kind of language with moral bright lines there are some things that are still better and worse than other things are , and so before we start talking about in my class this term , we're going to talk about campus protest .

We're going to talk about where responsibilities emerge when you have freedom to do certain things . It's not freedom from responsibilities . And where does that all happen ? We're going to talk about the conflict in the Middle East and how it plays out here .

We're going to agree on moral bright lines around those things , what things are out of bounds for civil conversation , what's outside the realm , because everything else should be in , but there still have to be these lines of if you are celebrating or denying the pain of the death of children , that's outside the lines .

Speaker 2

Right , and whether it's Palestinian children or Israeli children .

Speaker 3

Rape is not resistance and a weapon of war . I can't believe we have to say things like this , but apparently these are things that we're going to have to relitigate . But these are the kinds of things that we still need moral bright lines .

Speaker 1

Not everything is relative , so well , if the only morality is winning your point right , which is , I think , what the current , the current political environment is on both sides , right um how do you even get to the ? How do you get to court to litigate the moral issues ?

Speaker 2

Believe me , I , you know I . Years ago I had dinner with Senator Sass , Ben Sass , and it was like going back 50 years . You know somebody who was well-read , who understood both sides , who really tried to maintain friendships across . We just have fewer and fewer .

I mean , politicians are among the most boring and least interesting people that you can ever talk to . That's why I don't tend to cover politics .

Speaker 3

I'll take your word for it .

Speaker 2

Yeah , I mean business people vary but you get a lot of variation . But the other thing I wanted to get to before we close , because I really think this is important , it's not just this political stuff what about the question of the anxiety levels ?

Because what we're finding is tremendous relationship between , for instance , when you understand whether they're on the right or the left these people are . They're mentally disturbed some of them .

Speaker 3

I mean they're really anxious , they're very anxious and they're very lonely .

Speaker 2

So how does social media exacerbate that ?

Speaker 3

Because it's a form of connection that feels like it should feel like real connections to other people , but it isn't .

Speaker 1

It's a faux connection , yeah .

Speaker 3

It's just enough to make it less likely that somebody who is very lonely or very depressed actually takes the time and effort and energy to leave the house . But it's not the same thing . I want to come back to something you said , not just because I'm envisioning you might also be a boxing fan , because you were talking about pugilists .

The idea of techno-pugilism , I think , is a really important idea , for two reasons . Number one , I think when we have these debates about whether social media are bad for young people and researchers know , researchers say well , we don't have clear evidence of a link . It depends which kids have a bad , have negative effects , which kids have positive ones .

You know , I think one of the unmeasured because it's very hard to measure effects of this is how it's fraying social trust and so the social fabric , what it means to see other people ripping each other to pieces online and how unlikely that makes you to engage in or attempt to engage in a conversation about serious things that matter to you , either with that

person or with people in general , because it cultivates this idea that no one is going to be reasonable , so why bother trying ? So that's the one thing with regards to pugilism . The other is if you are a boxing fan or another form of fight .

It's a good metaphor Because the two people slugging it out in the ring , there's an audience around them that's quiet . They're not fighting , but they're observing the fight . And that's actually what happens with politics on social media .

Speaker 2

Chris .

Speaker 3

Bale at Duke University , wrote one of the most brilliant books called Breaking the Social Media Prism , based on all his work on polarization , and it's one of those books you read and you think that is absolutely obvious and I would never have thought of it . It's so well written and I recommend it to everybody .

It's so well written and I recommend it to everybody . But he points out in there that 3% of Americans , on a scale from one to seven , put themselves at a one or at a seven . 3% on each side . Extremely conservative , extremely liberal .

But then you ask people what proportion of people on the other side of the aisle they think are extremely conservative , extremely liberal , taff . How do we end up with such distortions ? Because of who uses social media and posts political information ?

It's the deeply involved , it's the extremes , because moderates don't post , they consume , because they have too much to lose reputationally If they get things wrong or if they don't understand an issue , they can get into trouble with friends , with family , with work .

Speaker 1

It's not worth it and but it distorts how much we think there is out there in terms of extremism and that also makes us less well , and the posters have an economic incentive to suck in the viewers to try to get them to hit the like button , to get them to engage in some way , to get them even out of their comfort zone to post , even though your point is

absolutely right . They don't because the numbers are not there , but that just creates a more and more extreme environment from a crafting of the actual words that go into the posts .

Speaker 3

So there are some people who have economic incentives , right Influencers , who have commercial interests , but a lot of it for the extremists is it's esteem , it's ego . These are people , and this is something Chris Bale covers beautifully in his book . These are people who are not getting a sense of esteem and respect in other places , and so they're- .

Speaker 1

They need it from here .

Speaker 3

They're punching at people online , yeah .

Speaker 1

But you know , the economic incentive is actually on the platform level .

Speaker 3

Oh , that is well for sure .

Speaker 1

So you know , that's how Facebook and everybody makes money . Right Is let's just keep the . Let's keep the water boiling .

Speaker 2

Yeah , but I also think that there's some of the blame also belongs to the big media , to the mainstream media . Like you know I find very often on the left . You know the New York times . Washington post all the people I used to work for LA times . Far left is now anybody . Who's a far right is anybody who's not on there , you know .

In other words , you can't just be a conservative or a moderate , you're either far left or far right . And then the same thing you see with on the right , where you know Kamala Harris , is many things you know , but besides you know , being basically an unimpressive person she's , you know she's not a communist , she's not a , you know she's not .

You know Frank , for you know Trump to say , well , she's a Marxist . But but if you read the , the heart , the , the , the further left and the further right press that you live in that sort of a universe which is bifurcated between extreme this and extreme that , and I can tell you from a business point of view , it's very hard to sell being in the middle .

I'll find that pieces that I write that have a edge one way or the other tend to do much better than pieces that are more moderate .

Speaker 1

You know it's funny . You should say that because you in particular make allusions to historical trends and Feud future podcast .

Speaker 2

Welcome to the future podcast . What's feudalism right ? Which meant the kids don't know , Kids don't have any idea of what feudalism is .

Speaker 1

But the point is , when you do that , when you bring out these historical allusions to things , I think people don't get it . I think that it is not extreme enough , right , you could call it some historical trend that was way off the charts , left or right , and they still wouldn't get it .

This is why I labeled it techno-pugilism , because it involves some degree of force , right , and the only force that people know is just disruptive insults and , um , emotional pain . Right , they don't have .

Speaker 3

There's no intellectual thing intellectualizing around it and yet I would say , the evidence is clear that the majority of americans are , in fact , moderates oh , there's no , absolutely right that extreme on the . You know the one , the seven .

The vast majority of us are a three , four or five Right , right , and the vast majority of Americans actually don't engage deeply with politics . They're not what .

Speaker 1

Well , they're voyeurs . They're voyeurs in politics , the way they are with posting they don't . They just watch , or they ?

Speaker 3

ignore it Right , they they just between elections . They don't think about it . For those of us who are deeply involved which is a term from University of Michigan political scientists that's about 20% of us , maybe less we just can't believe that anyone else exists . The vast majority of Americans don't think about politics very much at all .

It just sort of floats beneath . They don't check the news all the time .

Speaker 1

Sometimes I feel like I'd like to join them . Can we hide someplace Right ?

Speaker 3

But I think you know , when we focus on these divisive discourses , I think we underestimate how much appetite there is for a level of decency and sort of normalness , and I think that's been a huge part of this wave of support that Kamala Harris and Tim Walz have had . It's a campaign about let's just be , normal . Let's just- .

Speaker 2

Although oddly enough . Neither of them are remotely normal .

Speaker 1

Well , I don't know . I mean compared to what ?

Speaker 2

Well , I mean if you compare it to . Trump you know , I mean , look , you know , the bearded lady is more normal than Trump . Yeah right .

Speaker 1

No , but I think that first of all , you're giving me some hope , so thank you very much . First of all , you're giving me some hope , so thank you very much . The idea that a large portion of the population actually doesn't care about all of the histrionics that we're seeing really makes me feel a little bit better about life .

Speaker 3

And I would tell you from researching this and teaching this , the vast majority of young people don't like this . I'll never forget saying to a student a few years ago in this class we were talking about presidential politics . Maybe it was around 2020 . And I said you know , this isn't normal . It's not normal for politics to be this extreme , this uncivil .

And he looked at me and he said you know , professor , it's been like this my whole sentient life . So you and my parents tell me this isn't normal . I have no proof that it isn't . And I looked at him and I thought is he right or am I and am I a fool ?

Maybe this is normal , but I my sense from teaching this , from research with young people and with educators . This is not how people want to be and this is not how most people treat each other .

Speaker 2

So , so , as you know , as we , you know , get to the close here what , what , what can we do , what are the steps that we can take ? I mean both as as teachers , as media people or just as citizens . What , what can we do to to change this , because this trajectory is not a healthy one ?

Speaker 3

Yeah , I mean , I think one of the things that we can do with young people I do it in my classes , can do it in general is to start showing them that technology are tools , but they're not the tool for every job . So , for example , in my class there's no tech on the desks unless we're using it for a purpose . Yeah , I don't .

There's no tech on the desks unless we're using it for a purpose . Yeah , I don't know . Bring it , bring in a notebook . We're going to look at each other , we're going to talk to each other and we're going to talk about politics , and that scares a few people out of the room on day one .

Right we're going to read a lot and you're going to be tested on the reading .

Speaker 2

Oh boy , you lost . Do you have any students ? I do . And one of them came up to me and said you know I noticed we lost .

Speaker 3

You know , we went from 35 to 28 in like one day after your little speech on the first day and I said I know he said , but those of us who are here to do the work are really going to get to do the work now . I said it's almost like I did that on purpose .

But I think showing them , I always say to them sometimes having your phone , having a laptop , is the way to walk into a meeting . But if they've done any internships , they've been with people me or older who walk into meetings sometimes with nothing or with a notepad .

And I say we don't just do that because we're old , I mean it's also because we're old Well you don't qualify as old .

Speaker 2

With us Alta Kaka's here .

Speaker 3

Well then , you've made my day , because there are rooms where I feel like the altercator , but for them to start seeing that they interact differently when they don't have these things shredding their attention all the time . And to do that to give them space .

Where they are all doing that , they notice that this feels different from when they decide individually to walk in with a notepad , because if everyone else is still on their computer , they're not having the engagement that they were looking for and this is what Jonathan Haidt talks about in his new book the Anxious Generation is the power of community around these

things . So whether it's classes of parents who commit that no smartphones till eighth grade that it's not an individual family decision , it's a coordinated choice . We can do that in classrooms , we can do that in other places , and that doesn't mean that we vilify the tech . It doesn't mean that the tech doesn't have its place .

But to teach young people that there are times and spaces that should be sacred and separate , they know it too . Have you noticed how many young people walk around with hard copy books on campus ? They don't read for pleasure on a screen because they know they read differently when they turn the pages . They're figuring it out themselves .

We just have to support them in realizing that the medium is the message and that they feel differently and tapping into that sense of feeling . And we can use classrooms as ways to help them cultivate connection with each other too .

Speaker 1

Well , this is a glimmer of of hope in a uh you know , and maybe we're seeing a sunshine Marshall .

Well , maybe we're seeing a little bit of a rebound effect from , you know , from this media obsession and , uh , hopefully , uh , the the futile future will be a little less futile and maybe futile at least , and maybe we can do a better job of who we end up nominating for president than these you know , clowns we have now .

Speaker 2

We can hope you know but , but , but I I really like that idea because I think that you know , sometimes I know with with my younger daughter , we'll go someplace and and we'll just say , take , we're driving someplace . That's really nice , get off the phone .

Speaker 3

And I've been reading a book called how to Do Nothing , which is actually quite a wonderful book about where we put attention , and it makes a really wonderful argument that it's not just about saying stop looking at your phone , put your phone down , it's where are you putting your attention instead , right ?

Speaker 2

So it's not what am I taking from you ?

Speaker 3

It's where are you putting your attention instead ? Right , right , so it's not . What am I , what am I taking from you ?

It's what are you getting given by being able to really focus on another person , being able to really focus on a beautiful place , on an experience , and that , I think , is how we help a generation that COVID took a lot from to draw themselves out and back to each other . I have the students in this class .

They have to go with one other member of the class in a set of questions and get a cup of coffee and they have to ask each other questions about where their own beliefs came from and who's really influenced how they see things and have they really changed their mind ? Who helped them do that ? And I will tell you this part's depressing , marshall , I apologize .

How many of the students after I did that last year came to me at some point in the semester and said that's the first real conversation I've had with anyone since I started college wow because for me that was college right college was all about learning how to socialize and learning how to be sitting in to a community .

Each other about stuff we didn't understand . We did . That's what you did , that's how you formed your base .

Speaker 2

I mean definitely when I went to school , you know , but of course in those days they couldn't form tablets , but uh , but , but , but it's , but it's true . I mean , and that's something I really am concerned about is I don't see people having the sort of conversations that they , that that we used to have as kids .

I also see far less coupling up between men and women at schools than I did even at Berkeley .

Speaker 3

And at .

Speaker 2

Berkeley , we had the exact opposite , which was we had a lot more men in those days than women . Now I think we have considerably more women than men .

Speaker 3

Well , yeah , we flipped . I mean nationally , we have flipped . The women were , I think , 15 percentage points under 30 years ago and now they're 15 percentage points over on college campuses 30 percent in 30 years .

Speaker 1

But what I'm hearing from both of you is that we are we seem to be reestablishing a sense of genuine interpersonal connection , and that the whole premise of this session was talking about social social media , which gives you a faux sense of connection .

But maybe , in fact , there is some hope that the , that the , the real connections between people , can be the best , the best defense against , against these , uh , you know , peripheral , faux , uh moments of , of , uh , of shared recognition , which is what I think that social media is all about Right ?

Speaker 2

I think so , and I also think that you know that's a role for religious institutions , for families .

Speaker 3

Absolutely , you know , for places where people congregate in real time . I mean .

Speaker 2

To me , you know , the scariest thing is a kid who sits in his room or her room all day and is on Facebook or playing video games .

Speaker 3

But that kid's got more going on than just that . There's something amiss in that family . There's something amiss at school . If there's a kid whose life is so imbalanced , something else is afoot too . These things , they're comorbid .

None of these things happen on their own , because most kids , if their lives are otherwise full , they simply don't have that kind of time .

So maybe we should focus on providing those opportunities , how we fill them up otherwise , and how we make sure that we are creating space that enable them to be fully human , because that is the best defense against an overly technologized world . What are the things that make us human ?

And it's the real connections we have with other people and what we can do with each other in a classroom , outside of one , across generations , within generations .

I'm convinced from various research projects I've done I mean , I do work with very young kids and creating educational media for very young kids with Sesame , with PBS Kids , work with working class families about what the future of learning and work looks like . And across all these projects , it's this what is it that makes us uniquely human ?

And so much of this is finding these off ramps from the technology . They can bring us together , but we have to get off them and be with each other , and that's when I think things start to get better , is when we start treating each other as whole people , not as posts on a platform .

Speaker 1

Well , that's a perfect , perfect wrap up for for a session on social media . So , Vicki , thank you very much for being our guest .

Speaker 2

That was terrific . The feudal future podcast . Thank , you for having me . Thank you .

Speaker 1

The feudal future Podcast .

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