Marshall and Joel . This is Tom Piotta . I want to congratulate you on your fifth anniversary of Feudal Future . I appreciate the opportunity in the past to be on and to discuss the future of work in STEM fields . Now more than ever , that's so important to discuss this as we transition our economy .
So thank you for the service that you're providing , thank you for the interesting podcast that you're providing , and wishing you all the best in the future .
Hi , this is Rob Koepp . I'm director of the Asia-Pacific Geoeconomics and Business Initiative at Chapman University . Congratulations , joel and Marshall , on the fifth anniversary of the Feudal Future podcast . As your audience members know , you guys do a great job of highlighting vital issues in society and economics .
I've enjoyed listening to your segments and the chance to engage with you on air too . Well done and best wishes for more to come .
The Feudal Future Podcast .
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Feudal Future Podcast . I'm Marshall Toplansky , I'm Joel Kotkin and Joel , this is a special one for us . We are celebrating our fifth season . Congratulations , oh well . Same to you .
We're still vertical , and to our producer , Angel DeLeon , and to Manaz Asghari , who have been behind the scenes and not on camera but essential to what we've been doing .
Well , it's been a hell of a ride , hasn't it ? Oh God , oh , my God , you know , think about what we started this to do , right ? Originally we called it the Feudal Future Podcast because your book , which is about the emergence of neo-feudalism but which sounds kind of academic , right ?
But the essence of that book was we're entering a new period of concentration of power that looks an awful lot like feudalism in the past . And , gee , it's just too bad .
You were so wrong on all of those predictions ? Well , I guess not , because still a lot of people are interested in that topic .
And if nothing else , the big change , I think , is that whereas , let's say , when we started , most oligarchs were predictably allied with the Democrats and progressives , now there's a at least a , a small group , that but very powerful group that is on the other side , and that that's certainly a big change .
Yeah , it is . What I thought it might be interesting is so it's been five years . What are the big changes or the big trends that have extended themselves in ways that you hadn't anticipated over the last five years ?
as you see it , Well , the first one I would go to is I never thought Donald Trump would get elected again , not that you know his prior to covid . His presidency was probably fairly successful . I think had it not been for COVID , he would have been reelected .
But after January 6th , after you know all the tell , you know the tell me stories from his former people who worked for him , um , his um , uh , just sometimes outrageous statements , you just thought he wouldn't be there . But you know what ? What amazed me is how effective the Democrats were in reelecting Donald Trump .
That's in the in the circular circular firing squad of the democratic party .
Well , and also I think that the that the lawfare made Trump a of all people , a victim and made it impossible for , I think , stronger Republican candidates , haley and DeSantis , for instance , made it impossible for them to to really run against him . And you know it's .
And the Democrats I don't know why they have this idea that because they hate Donald Trump , they think that they can , that that he would be easy to beat .
Well , two out of three , you lost anger . That was felt by the middle class and , surprisingly , the younger generation , who felt like they were being cheated out of a future or even out of a present of you know , of being able to make a living and be able to be economically successful .
He tapped into that and and in a very dramatic way I think beat the Democrats .
I agree and I think that you know , one of the biggest problems that Democrats have , I think , is they , they . They refuse to accept that people voted for Donald Trump , maybe because not that they liked him , but that he was . He was an alternative that they felt they could go to .
And you know calling people fascist Nazis go to , and you know calling people fascist Nazis racist because they disagree with you is not a good political strategy .
Yeah , well , you know it's interesting . You should say that the , the drama that accompanies Trump , plays into the , the over polarization of social media .
Yes .
Right . So if you look at what people like to listen to , orization of social media , yes , right . So if you look at what people like to listen to or watch on social media , they like watching extreme behavior . On social media . Anything other than extreme behavior doesn't really register .
So the mainstream media , which has been normally has the responsibility of providing facts , is just being ignored . They're trying very hard to provide facts , but nobody's listening .
Well , I disagree completely . I mean , the mainstream media is not interested in facts . You know , as I tell my class at Chapman , it's not sins of commission , it's not fake news , it's what they don't report . You know , for instance , well recently there was this big outage in Spain and Portugal and almost everyone knows it's .
You know , over-reliance on renewables creates these problems . They , they , it gets left out , I see .
The story gets buried or the reason for the story gets buried .
Also , I mean , if you take an organization like AP , when I was a reporter AP was kind of boring but you , you know , you never thought of a bias issue with AP and you know the ? I guess the the idea was . You know just the facts . Ma'am and AP is now funded by all the progressive foundations .
I mean , Wikipedia can't be taken seriously , npr , hopefully , will be disfunded . What I think has happened over the last 10 years is the mainstream media has completely lost its credibility with 50 , 60% of the population .
So who does have the responsibility and is carrying out , of providing facts to people other than you and I , of course ? But , you know who in society really is taking up that cudgel .
Well , there are , you know , first of all , there are individual writers who write for all sorts of publications , sometimes liberal , sometimes conservative , sometimes liberal , sometimes conservative . I think that the you really now have to go increasingly into the main , into the basic data .
That's why , like in the work we do at Chapman , one of the things that we look at is you know , what are the numbers ? Like you know , somebody will say , oh , everybody's moving back to the city , and I said , really , OK . Then I we asked our demographer , Wendell Cox , and he said well , here are the numbers .
You know and , and , and I think this , this , unfortunately , you increasingly have to go into . You know the bureau land , the BLS , you know the Bureau of Labor Statistics the BLS , you know , the Bureau of . Labor Statistics , you got to go to the census .
The you know because you simply you know people spin things and unfortunately and I know this from a friend who taught journalism increasingly you're under pressure to basically have this that the journalists become social justice warriors .
Well , and you're also under the gun to simplify , I think , right . And what happens is you pick a message that somebody wants to amplify because of its political potential Right and you just oversimplify it . The tariffs is a perfect example , right ? We're being told that we have this massive trade deficit with China . Well we do .
If you just look at the trade deficit in goods when you when you added the trade surplus in in services , it's a different story .
Except it's still massive . I mean you know the , the , the services just don't have . I I've looked at the numbers , there's just no way . I mean the services surplus is not remotely as big as the industrial one .
Well , and then you know , even within the industrial one , no one is accounting for the delivery of Boeing airliners to China , which , when you look at the cumulative value of those goods , actually drops the trade deficit down tremendously . Of course , china has now said you can take your jets and stuff them .
Well , you , know they've been planning . I mean , look , the reality is China wants every cutting edge industry and it wants to dominate them and yes anything they can to get there . So obviously I mean what .
What bothers me the most is the United States can't produce even basic things like screws and and parts for submarines and we , we , we can't possibly compete if we , if we , are completely dependent . Anybody who remembers the pandemic ? You couldn't get masks . The United States of America could not produce masks or ventilators , you know .
so I tend to be far more skeptical and even can contemptuous .
Well , you have to admit there's there's a there's a real strategic problem . There's a there's a real strategic problem . If your military might is dependent upon sourcing products from outside of your own country . That's a little bit of a worry , right . That makes you more than a little worried about about vulnerability , and particularly the countries .
it's one thing if you're if it's coming from the UK or Canada . It's another thing if it's coming from China and you know the . I mean , I just think that what's happened is on the tariff issue , which I think is very complicated and we don't know where it's going to end up , but I think that the coverage has been so incredibly one-sided .
The reason , I think one of the reasons I think Trump is having some problems is the , the part of the media that business people read , like the FT or the or Wall Street . Journal are so doggedly free trade , sort of Uber libertarian . Yeah , I mean they , you know .
And the bottom line is and this goes back to the theme of the whole series things that work out well for your fellow graduates at Harvard School of Business it's been great . For the vast majority it's not been great . Right , and and and .
The great danger that we're and this is something we've repeatedly gone to is the great danger is that a small group of people are benefit from these policies and not , so you know , it includes the professional large part of the professional class .
Most people don't do very well from this , and I think that this is what propelled Donald Trump and I think it's what it's , you know . Again , it's almost like your different languages , like , oh well , you know , apple is getting royalties for , you know , for its software Great , that helps about one percent of the population .
Investors in Apple Right .
And , and and . Increasingly , I think that we're going to see more and more of the innovation coming from China and India and countries like that .
Well , which is , which is , which is a natural evolution , actually , right ? Not whether or not they stole , whether China stole our intellectual property to get there , or whether or not they're . They're developing it and coming to the same insights . Typically , as countries develop , they increase the sophistication of their R and D , and the history is cause .
I , I remember this . We're old enough , unfortunately , to remember when the big threat was Japan . If you give up your industrial base , the eventually the research and development part , I mean , the only place where the U ?
S has been then been able to stay ahead is in completely new fields and almost every old field we get our , you know , basically get our , our , our clock cleaned .
You know , I mean you think of , you think of of , you know , the auto industry , I mean we , we don't have a single American car company , with the possible exception of Tesla and Rivian , that you can say , oh wow , we're running on the cutting edge . I mean , where the hell is General Motors and Ford ?
Well , and the battery technology is actually the R part of R&D for battery technologies coming out of China .
Right , exactly , and so I think that what we're doing is we're I mean again , trump is incoherent and says incredibly stupid things . On the other hand , he is saying we can't continue to de-industrialize .
I've been following this for almost a half century and the result of de-industrialization have been , you know , very , very bad , particularly again for working class , for the middle class , and increasingly we're you know , we're seeding the future to China .
So so I really want to focus it on this China thing , cause I remember one of our , one of my favorite episodes , cause I'm kind of a China person , right , just I happen to like the topic . Studied Chinese as an undergraduate .
And like them some Right .
Exactly Was our , our episode with Ross Terrell from from Harvard , and that was really an eye opener to me , because one of the things that he predicted was after having watched the US-China relationship over , you know , since before Nixon .
This is somebody who actually interviewed Mao .
Right . He interviewed Mao Right Exactly the . His feeling was well , the US will do nothing if China just let them walk into Taiwan is going to create , and whether that scares the crap out of our own policy people and whether or not that may be one of the reasons why we're seeing such a heating up of the of the war here , the trade war .
Of course , the other thing that we're seeing is that Taiwan Semiconductors is building a huge plant in in Arizona and that NVIDIA is going to start making their chips Well , I think , also in Arizona .
So I think that you know , but I think that there's no question that if we don't do anything with Taiwan which I think you know no American president is going to risk World War III over Taiwan . Okay , so I mean , the reality is , how quickly will the Taiwanese be able to leave ? Because you think about the enormous human capital of Taiwan .
You know we've already seen the movement of Hong Kong people . I bet if you went and you examined what was the economic success of people from Hong Kong and the UK , australia , canada , us , I bet it was pretty impressive . Yeah .
Well , so from an immigration point of view , you really your point is we should probably start creating a special class of of immigration to handle highly talented people coming in from from other countries , especially Taiwan .
Yeah , and then , of course , the immigration is one of the topics we've , you know , we've dealt with before and you know it's a very interesting , like you know , we , we we've interviewed people you know from , from Mexico and the , you know , and and Latin America , and and the funny thing is their views are not so different than mainstream American views .
I mean , um , you know , when we did our Latino study , which with you know , with Jennifer Hernandez and Soledad or Sura and Carla Del Rio Lopez , I mean what I found was really interesting is that how conservative in many ways , latinos are , that this idea of this people of color coalition , all of whom , you know , want to , you know , fight the war to get to
get rid of , uh of , of the patriarchy and the uh um and the American system , why the hell do you think these people come here ? You think they , they come here so that , so they , they can live in North Korea .
Right , right , exactly , and they're buying into the American dream , as previous generations have , and it's really testimony to how much richness a culture gets when it has new sources of people that are coming in , which is the exact opposite of what I'm feeling is happening .
Over the last five years , the level of xenophobia coming from mainstream America , or at least the America that we see right , which is in media it just seems to have been dialed up and very inappropriately , even though you have an incredible richness coming from highly productive immigrants , you're seeing this xenophobia come up . It's not a good thing .
But I also think that part of it is and I blame more than anyone Joe Biden for opening the border and allowing essentially unvetted millions of people to come so that instead of the hardworking immigrant that we need , we're getting those , but we're getting also a lot of people who you don't really want to have here .
And I thought that in our show on Mexico I thought it was very interesting is they said , maybe something like a Bracero program ? I , I mean at the high end and professional .
that's one thing and that can be from anywhere , but I think that that a guest worker- guest worker program I mean , you know and I think that , and if you have that , so that people are guaranteed decent wages , decent conditions , so some guy comes from you know , rural , you know El Salvador , works , you know , for every year on a farm in California and and
and retires as as the wealthiest guy in the village . You know this is this is something sensible . I mean , I think that it . I blame more than anyone Biden for allowing the border to be open and and feeding the absolute worst sentiments of people .
I mean , when you do have gang members and you do have people who are , you know clearly they were criminals when they came and you let them in , you know you're going to get a reaction .
I mean what about the people that aren't criminals ? So I mean I've got to believe and look , maybe I'm being naive in this . If you were to put a percentage on the number of illegals that have come in that are actually criminals , what number would you ?
give ? Oh , I don't think . I probably . Well , obviously , in the sense , they're criminals . They broke the law to start with Right , which again maybe creates more criminality down the road .
I mean , I think that a lot of people are very hardworking , but there's also this issue Do we need enormous numbers of low wage , uneducated workers when our own low wage and workers are doing really badly ? I mean , it certainly doesn't help people .
Like you know , the whole refugee thing is a lot of resentment is coming from Latino and African-American communities who said well , wait a minute , why are we paying for their services when our services are being cut ?
So I think what I think is done is we've created a situation in which , you know , we've exacerbated tensions , not just , you know , from whites against other people , but against , you know , immigration in general , because we didn't have a control system . People are very scared when there's no control .
Yeah , no , I hear that , but I got to go back on you on this . What you just said was you have African-American and other disadvantaged groups that are concerned that illegal immigrants are getting the services that they would have been entitled to , right ? So that's looking at the welfare side of things .
What about the problem that we have , which is that there aren't enough people to take , willing to take the jobs on the working side of the equation , right ?
Well , and , of course , a lot of the problem , and I think Mike Lynn one of our , really , who's been our guest many times Mike Lynn makes a point that they don't take the jobs because the salaries are too low , and so they , they feel that they , they and they , and they're always competing against this ever growing number .
You know Cesar Chavez and and Bernie Sanders , before he went woke , all were making the same point you can't keep adding huge numbers of people who are willing to work at the low end , particularly given the kind of economy we have .
What worries me and we've dealt with issues of AI and robotics with Tony Lemus and others you know a lot of these jobs may not be there .
And you know , if , if , if you're developing a robot to and I think this will lead us to one of our biggest topics but if you , if you , if you , if you bring in these robots to make hamburgers at , in and out , or or or clean toilets , that's going to have a big effect .
But I think one of our most interesting programs and I think the one we did on AI , With Roni Abovitz and Charlie Fink . Yeah , and from the Brain Institute .
Oh yeah , Dr Uri Maho is from the Brain Institute at Chapman , I mean the other thing that's really interesting is we're used to talking about immigration in the context of low wage labor , but what about the fact that with AI , a lot of the middle class jobs the kids we're teaching ?
Absolutely right . It worries the heck out of me . I mean , you know the latest , just the latest versions of chat GPT 4.1 , which just came out , kind of known as the data GPT .
I think of what I do in gathering the numbers , as you say , right , I go out , find large data sets , bring it in use , sophisticated software to be able to create insights and charts and graphs In about a week and a half from now , right , or ? I'm using that metaphorically I'm just going to tell the chat GPT go get this data and make this chart for me .
I won't have to have any skills and you go smoke a cigar .
Right , exactly .
Well , you know that's going to kind of drop the value of what I do substantially .
And it's and and the other problem , my biggest problem , which we didn't get to too much , which is at at a point I think we'll have an entire generation who has stopped learning how to think , because every time they have a question , they ask AI . Now , the fact that AI just in time .
Knowledge is not the same thing as wisdom , exactly , exactly and you know . They're like people say well , why do you read a book ? I read a book because I learn all the nuances about why , you know why things happened and how they happened , and then I can .
I can pull understandings like how do you make comparisons of the United States and the Roman Empire , which is a big topic ?
Well , a useful piece of context to have Right .
But if you have a young person , this is what scares me the most is when young people are being taught these things and they have no historical knowledge to counter it . And then the question is what use are they if they are relying on AI all the time ? What the hell do ?
I need ?
What do I need ? The middleman ? Why do I need to pay somebody 200,000 bucks a year to ?
push a button , well , and what that ends up generating , at least in the minds of some people , is a gigantic welfare state with universal basic income , which means it chases away the incentive of success , and so that's a big thing .
That's changed , actually , quite a bit since we started the show , which is , I've noticed I don't know if you've noticed this , but the Gen Z and millennial students that we've seen , or people that we've interviewed , increasingly are getting angrier and angrier , and the focus of their anger is the baby boom generation we have somehow stolen their future from them Right
, even while we're paying for their college and helping them with their rent . Well , and who's developing the AI systems ? It's not the baby boomers , right .
Yeah , we're too stupid for that , right , it's them , it is they that are doing that , and so I'm sitting there going what is going on ?
here ?
Are we moving into a society where nobody is willing to take responsibility for their own actions and their own success , or that that or you get more and more people who are looking for the government structure and you know we have to really be careful that the you know the what's when you talk about that anger it . It really has two predominant streams .
One is heavily female . You know Luigi Mangione was , was was great for killing this guy in cold blood . You know it's okay to go to go key a bunch of a bunch of Teslas , you know , somehow that's okay . There's that group and then you've got the group heavily male who feel that they've been disenfranchised . They've been disenfranchised .
Oh , you know , I mean you when you talk about , you know , toxic masculinity or , or , or , patriarchy , or , or , white nationalism . So what we're , we're , we're , we see that generation , and I've been looking at this particularly in Europe , because in Europe you have , because you have , a multiple party system . So you , you know , people change .
The number one party for young people in Germany is the AFD , which is , you know , somewhat on more on the far right side . For sure , Young people are , but what we're seeing is young people are voting for that and they're voting for the far right side .
For sure , young people are , but what we're seeing is young people are voting for that and they're voting for the far left parties , like the Link in Germany . And the same thing is true in France . In France , the young people voted for Le Pen on the right and Melanchthon on the left . So there is this massive alienation of this generation .
Well and and obviously polarization right there . There's hard to do that in the middle . My question about that ?
You know we've done some really interesting shows on the metaverse and the potential of this , you know , not tomorrow but say 50 years from now this immersive world where people bury themselves in an alternative reality to get rid of the pain of living in their current reality .
think you're talking five years , 10 years , because we already see it . Like , for instance , you know people who are on Facebook six , six hours a day , uh , people who are , um , uh , you know , playing video games for hours and hours and hours . That's an alternative universe .
Well , it's going to be interesting when our avatars run the do this same show 10 , uh five years from now , they'll probably be commenting on that . They'll be younger and better looking , exactly but you know , and have hair they're gonna have hair .
Well , some of us have some , but , but I think that this , this , this alienation of this young generation , has got to be understood as both , on the one , on the left and on the right , what they look at .
And they look at the establishment parties you know in , you know you could say , let's say , in the us , because we have this two-party system , you've got um , you've got the sort of um , common sense democrats .
You know the , the us old Clinton , clinton people , you know who , who are , you know , but are , you know , are still basically in the mainstream of of American tradition , and and and then and and then you have the old Bush Republicans as well , and that those are becoming basically baby boomer remnants .
But on the fringes it's AOC on one side , and you know and , and you know JD Vance on the other side .
Yeah , no , it's so , and of course we're at that stage baby , we , baby boomers . We don't have that much time left on the planet , yeah . And so the really interesting question becomes when do we lose all saliency as a generation from speaking of baby boomers ? You know it , it , it's not too far away .
No , no , look , you know you think about the silent generation .
You know the people who were , you know came , you know came sort of into into , you know , were born , let's say , in the in the 30s and 40s and who you know were before the boomers , you know you , I mean , joe Biden is probably the symbol and the reality is , and look , we have to deal with this every day . Is , you know you ? You know there's .
I , I do think that there's wisdom that people get when they get older . But there are many things you can't do , and I mean one of the things I'm thinking about is about how we assign seniority a revered role , but not a controlling role .
Right , which has been , by the way , the hallmark of other cultures , especially in Asia , right , and has been , by the way , the hallmark of other cultures , exactly Especially in Asia , right , and so we do have to figure that out .
It actually brings up a great question that may be a perfect way of summing up , which is has in what ways has our place in the world as a culture , right , not just as a government or as a country or as a state , because we love living in California , but as a culture ? How has that ? How , where is it going ? How has it changed ? Where is it going ?
What's your feeling about that ?
Well , I think there are . You know , there are numerous ways we can go . One is what we've been talking about AI driven . You know people , basically , you know , will be , you know , living in their little apartments with no children . You know , smoking , weed watching , watching , watching video games , immersing themselves in , in , in the metaverse .
Right and being completely alienated . I think you know that's one . The other side of it and this is something that we're going we're going to be getting more into there are signs that , on the education , we did a show on education .
I'll never forget visiting a Catholic-related charter school in the Bronx and seeing what those kids were doing , and I do think that there's a push . I think there's more people beginning to reconsider religion . I think a lot of people looking at the life that people inherited from the boomers , which is I only care about myself , I only care about my pleasure .
I think there's a pushback that is beginning to happen and I personally think that the salvation of the society is not going to come from Washington . It's going to come from local neighborhoods . It's going to come from churches .
It's going to come from a sense of community is what you're saying it's not like what you're talking about from a religion point of view isn't necessarily a spiritual reawakening on the individual basis .
It's a reawakening of the fact that you belong to a community and that your strength comes from interacting with other people and like we'll be doing a show on this for sure , which is , you know that that the universe maybe does have some , some sort of overarching principle , because why would ?
this is an intelligent design argument well , intelligent design , or just to say we don't know , but you certainly my . My point is you know , I don't know . How did the atheists know ? I mean , you know , I mean , I mean I'm , I'm , you know .
I'm basically a very skeptical person in general , but I think also that people beginning to realize that there are these values that are really important . It's like Richard Reeves has said you know that you don't get rid of a you know 15000 year old institution and then think that it's not going to have an impact .
If the family falls apart , everything else falls apart the history of civilization and you think about well , what is it that has made Homo sapiens so successful as a species ? It's really the notion of collaboration .
Right From hunting in packs to being able to create universities where you have an exchange of thought despite the fact that people may disagree amongst themselves , that collaboration has really brought a lot with it .
And so , if we can , if we can have a society where , instead of being isolated in your own little bubble , you actually interact with other people on a real basis , as opposed to with avatars yes , something tells me that there's some benefit in that for society .
Right , and I think that you know one of the things we also have done in our classes and we'll do more on the show is you know what I call the artisan economy . You know people , I had lunch yesterday with Shadeen Sudeikis , who is one of the leaders in this area , and he just says look at some point .
You know , in an era where you can get pretty much everything online , when you go out you want a human experience . You want to meet the creator of the product , chat with the barista . You know , know something about the food you're eating . I mean , so I'm and it could be little things . Right , it could be just .
you know , a friend of mine , Gus , just made a weather vane for his house and he did it by taking out a piece of wood and doing a jigsaw . You know , cut out of what the I think it was a squirrel or something like that and it took him a couple of hours in his house to be able to do that .
But it was such a great sense of making stuff and the pride that he has in doing that , I think , is something that everybody is going to want to have in whatever it is , they make it .
Maybe they're writing something , or they're creating a piece of media right From a content point of view , or they're studying something , and they're going to derive an incredible insight .
The idea that you're making those things is , I think , something that is going to be a positive for society if we can focus people on doing that and you see it in things like vintage stores .
You know where people get to . You know , choose a very eclectic thing . Farmer's markets huge explosion in the number of farmer's markets . So you know , I think you know , as we have this increasingly , if you will , biden is , by design , authoritarian top down digital economy .
There's going to be a reaction to it and I think you know I think that we hear this from the young people too that they , they don't necessarily like this direction . Like you know , you think about human relations . People we've had in our class who would you know , who say , well , eventually they won't need me because the AI will pick the people .
Well , ai doesn't understand charisma , it doesn't understand who is going to be a good mix with your other employees . So I think there's going to be a rebellion against this order and again , this rebellion will have a left and a right . And the question is , can we somehow synthesize it so that it's not too disruptive and and it will be Luddite in nature .
Right , right , that people , but but the ? You know , I think one of the things that I think has been the reason for the podcast success is we try to deal with real issues and we deal with people with different perspectives . A lot of times we don't necessarily agree with each other , much less with our guests .
But the key to me is you want to have guests who are rational , who can back up their arguments and are articulate .
you know to have guests and who could bring genuine insight Right .
You know , I mean , I think that you know , maybe this is maybe our last legacy as boomers is the importance of knowledge , the importance of being able to make an argument and to listen to an argument you disagree with . And that's what we're trying to do with this , with this podcast , and I hope we can keep doing it .
Yeah , me too , and thank you for what has been an incredible five years , and we hope that you continue to tune in . We'd love to hear your suggestions about what it is that you'd like to hear us tackle , so please reach out to us on Instagram and LinkedIn , and thank you again for being part of the Feudal Future podcast .