Jewish Migration: The Southern Shift

And to help us do that , we have three great guests that are involved in Jewish issues and Jewish populations outside of the New York area . We have Ira Sheshkin , who is a professor of Judaic studies at University of Miami and director of the Jewish Demography Project there .

Mark Goldman , who is retired CEO of Gray Advertising in Atlanta and formerly head of marketing for the Atlanta Jewish Federation . And Tal Shmueli , who is the partner and CEO of Texas Venture Partners , an Israeli living in Austin . And gentlemen , welcome , joel . You want to kick us off .

And so Ira is probably as good as anybody in terms of the data . Yeah , we're a bit data geeks , so what does the data tell us ?

The percentage in the Midwest has been 12 , 14% since World War II . That hasn't changed . But the percentage in the South has gone from about 10% up to one in four Jews living in the South and in the West it's gone from 10% up to one in four Jews living in the West . So there has been a major shift .

Geographers would call that a shift from the snow belt to the sun belt and that's exactly what has happened to the Jewish population . But it isn't particularly in the south , it's not spread throughout the south , it's in particularly the state of Florida and Atlanta .

If you go to places like Mississippi and Alabama , you really don't see any significant Jewish population .

What was your logic at that point ?

And after two years I was afforded an interesting opportunity in Atlanta , back in the advertising business , with two guys that had created a pretty good ad agency business for a new agency in Atlanta , which was just a kind of just a nascent ad business at that time .

So 1990 is when we got here and there were a lot of us that followed in 1990 , late 1980s and I think it's been growing ever since .

And maybe if you could explain a little bit about that , because I found that what you told me to be very disturbing , being a Californian myself .

I then spent three years in Dublin , ireland , working for LinkedIn , one year in London in the UK Wealthy , rich , very grounded Jewish community and after all of that I found myself moving to Texas . I think that says a lot about the gravity of the American South for young , enterprising Jews . And so that's the personal perspective .

It was an informed life decision . It wasn't a Jewish decision or a business decision . It was a life decision . If I am taking a Jewish standpoint , I mean , october 7th really , really rattled everyone in more ways than we can even begin to count .

And if I am a CEO of a company and I want to take my family somewhere because we need to be in the US for business purposes , it'll be very hard subjecting my sons and daughters , my husband or wife , to what might happen to them in the bluer states with the more hostile , younger population .

We have people in the Texas community who moved from the coast to Texas because their kids had suffered from boycotts and walkouts , their parents have been accused of being a complicit in genocide , etc . And who wants to put their family through that , no matter the business objective .

Now , if you do take into consideration the business perspective and you can see the sign next to me . It says consider Texas .

I believe that if you put Texas side by side with anywhere in the world , more often than not Texas will win the business case as well , for a variety of reasons which I'm very happy to go into , but I don't think that's the goal for this call .

That's it there's 7.7 million Jews , there's 330,000 Israelis and , you know , listening to Tal , I can understand where his decision might be a bit different than perhaps other Jews , but I would point out that there are over 4,000 colleges and universities in the country and there have been problems at a couple of hundred and that there are 18.6 million college students

in the United States and a very tiny minority are involved in , you know , strong anti-Israel activity .

Like I said , most campuses are not having that kind of a problem and we can't tell much about the way in which Jews are moving around by what the Israelis are doing , because they're really a tiny percentage . Israeli born , by the way , is well under 100,000 .

We have other people here with Israeli passports who also , let's say , came from Russia , went to Israel in 1989 , and have since come to the United States , so the Israelis are not a big part of the American population .

Personally , when I got my PhD from Ohio State University , you had to go where there were jobs open for people in my field , and that particular year there happened to be a job for me in South Florida , and part of the reason I applied in

South Florida , in addition to right around New York , which is where my whole family was at the time was due to the fact that I knew that over time the experience was was that Jews from New York , as they age , a large percentage end up here in South Florida . We already had some relatives here it's called chain migration right and that played a major role .

And then , following me , most of the rest of my family has moved to South Florida . I don't have any relatives left in New York that are close enough to even think about visiting , so obviously with the concentration of Jews in Florida .

We have 750,000 Jews in the state not counting snowbirds , okay , we have 750,000 . And the vast majority , 90% of them , live in Miami-Dade , broward and Palm Beach County . That's Miami , fort Lauderdale and Palm Beach . So no , we feel you know more than safe here .

We haven't really had any serious problems with anti-Semitism here , compared to certain other parts of the of the country .

One of the things I do in looking at demographics is the kids move , the parents follow , and when the parents move , the kids follow . So I'm in the same situation , except for my brother .

My entire family now is basically in Florida , so it's it's the same situation and my and increasingly my wife's family , although the Canadians are staying out of Florida for now .

In fact , it was that group up in Stone Mountain that decided to yahoo it down to the city of Atlanta in the early 1950s and blow up the temple .

And if you're not familiar with it , Alfred Urie wrote a great book called Driving Miss Daisy , which was a novel , but historical novel , because Alfred Urie grew up in Atlanta and so he experienced all of that , and that , unfortunately , hasn't changed much . We see a lot of incidents of anti-Semitism in high schools , junior high schools .

I mean , the Federation was constantly trying to build a secure feeling among the Jewish population and gave money for security forces at temples and schools and other things like that . I don't want to paint a hysterical picture , but it can be very uncomfortable .

I will tell you that we practiced shooter drills at Federation once every two months , I mean , like schools do , where we went out of the building and tried to be in an organized fashion to you know , to practice . It's very uncomfortable when you feel things like that , and I just wanted to just say one more thing , picking up something Tal said .

You know , of course , the political atmosphere and bringing a lot of Israelis and a lot of Jews , you know , to rally around Israel , thankfully after October 7th . In fact , you know , Jewish people , I mean really first came to the United States for religious persecution reasons and the first area of settlement was Charleston .

In fact , the oldest temple in the United States is in Charleston and if you're ever in Charleston you should go there . It's beautiful .

Today we're at 130,000 . So a lot of that growth picking up on what Ira said is migration for reasons of economics and you know lifestyle .

I've just finished an article for City Journal looking at where the greatest concentration of both anti-Semitic and anti-Israel feeling this and it's not predominantly from whites or from conservatives , it's predominantly from liberals and , sadly , ethnic minorities , particularly African-Americans . Has that changed in Atlanta as well ?

Of course it's not called KKK , you don't see them marching around in white robes , but the presence is really felt and it is mostly traditional groups , white nationalists and so on and so forth , white nationalists and so on and so forth , you know , and it's the temple bombing was one thing , but if you go back into the late 1860s , the Jewish population in the

South was very pro-Southern and fought in the Civil War . I have friends whose great grandparents fought for the Confederacy and it continued to build . But after the Civil War , when the KKK continued to to grow to unprecedented strengths , you had things like the Leo Frank lynching know lynching which again , Alfred Ury created a great play or musical about it .

That's now been in Atlanta for about two weeks .

When I got here first and I was looking for friends , basically I had to skip and I came up with three or four people who were already here . All entrepreneurs came for different reasons .

Two of them were fed up with Silicon Valley for a variety of reasons tax and work and recruitment and one needed a place to park his money after a very significant business exit and he said , yeah , everyone told me I should be in Texas . I'm like so you know the people here he goes . No , no , sorry , not friends .

My accountant told me I should be in Texas , so they came for those reasons . Some were pushed reasons , some were pushed here , some were pulled here and that was four years ago . Today , there isn't a day where I don't get a WhatsApp or an email or a LinkedIn tag with someone saying hi , I'm new to Texas or I'm new to Austin .

I heard about you , I heard about the Chamber of Commerce . How do I get involved ? It's either that or someone who's considering coming over and wants to ask some questions . There isn't a day that goes by without it , which is remarkable .

If four years ago , we had to buy voodoo donuts , which is traditional donuts , and asked for plain ones for Hanukkah , today I can count four or five different Jewish bakeries and bakers who are working here and will deliver whatever kind of babka you want to your doorstep .

So we're seeing a renaissance , we're seeing a flow , and if I had to characterize the population that migrates here from Israel , it'll be tech entrepreneurs who need to set up a location in the US and they choose Texas because they identified for the business benefit , but also because there's enough ground , roots community that's already here Domestically , whether you're

Jewish or Israeli . It could be a senior intercompany transfer . They've set up a site in Austin and you're there . It could be some COVID refugees that wanted a place that had a bit more freedoms throughout the pandemic and they fell in love and stayed here .

And now and I'll close with this we're also seeing people from outside of the tech ecosystem that's coming over . So not just organizations where they can sponsor you and relocate you , but also traditional businesses in the services industry , in some hospitality . So it becomes much richer , much more robust .

But I think the two common denominators are business-oriented and also want to have a flavor of Jewish and Israeli life safely and securely .

Would you consider the fact that there is a critical mass of Jews , both Israeli Jews and Jews that are migrating from other parts of the country , that are happening in Austin , or is it still in the formative stages ?

And then you come with the reality there's only 7 billion of us . But they're like Scott , everywhere I go there are Israelis . And then you come with the reality there's only 7 billion of us . But they're like no , no , that can't be . I've seen Israelis everywhere I travel .

With regards to the type of Jewish connection that is forming here , I would say we're very much on the ground level still and that's not taking anything away from the people who have lived their entire lives here and have built a wonderful Jewish community center up north that have businesses that have been donating heavily before October 7th .

But surely , since I think we're seeing a resurgence and part of our challenges and areas of focus is how do we bring those communities together the grassroots Texas Jewish community that is not just in Austin , it's actually much more integrated in Austin and Houston and in Dallas than it is here , even in San Antonio .

So the existing community and then the new transplants , the Israelis and also the Jewish migration from the coast that are coming in .

know . I'd love to ask Ira about the state of the California Jewish community . We experience it . This is entirely self-referencing here , so forgive me , this is not data , this is just opinion . But he has data . But I'd love to hear your data about it . You know , in the Los Angeles area we see kind of two counter movements .

See kind of two counter movements .

A desecularization , with the exception maybe of Chabad in some areas , but kind of a weakening identity . I know like the Orange County Jewish Federation is very concerned about the intermarriage rates , about the weakening culture of Jews here , and I wanted to know what Ira thinks about that .

Um , is that showing up in in in the numbers ? Um , ira , uh .

And I suspect what's going on in California and we do have recent studies that support this is what's happening in the Jewish community around the country , you know , because being Jewish is both a religion as well as an ethnicity , people choose to associate with being Jewish in different ways , and , you know , from people who are Jewish because they're strongly Zionist

to people who are ultra-Orthodox . What we have going on , though , is kind of a polarization , just as it is in American politics . We do have a strong movement of people who are becoming quote unquote more Jewish , and we have a large group of people as well who are , you know they'll identify as Jewish .

They may show up at a Seder once a year , or light Hanukkah candles , or simply express their Judaism through the Democratic Party . I call it a tikkun olam with a menorah , and there are people who are simply Zionists , are simply Zionists , and so you have two growing polls here .

One poll is becoming more and more religious and more orthodox and more into it , and another group of people are kind of just barely hanging on . They are just Jewish , and that's what's going on in California as well .

So there is sort of what is the Federation is supposed to be , the centralization of thinking and doing in the Jewish community , and it's not really well known enough in order to do that . Adding to the fact that and I understand that you know financial issues are always difficult , but the Jewish Federation of Atlanta was very transactional .

Everything it did was based on what , how much money did we raise today ? Nary as much thinking into how are they going to get these kids who think or are not sure whether Israel is in the right in defending the country against Hamas ? So in Atlanta I can speak from this you have an older Jewish population that's much , much more conservative .

When I say conservative , I don't mean in Jewish religious manner , I'm talking about in politics and economically speaking , so to speak and then you have a younger part of it that you know is not sure what this is , how this is going to work and , of course , there's mixed marriages that you know that further take away from the Jewish religion .

I just add this one thing so I am part of a mixed marriage . My wife , maureen , is Catholic and our temple , which is a very reform , the temple supporting the Jewish cultural life , and so forth . I thought that was magnanimous and we needed to see more of that . Anyway , it's a problem .

So will a Jewish community that , let's say , in 20 years is maybe 30 , 40 percent in the south and maybe spread around it in the South and maybe spread around it , will it have a different character than our sort of you know the Irving Howe , you know world of our fathers Yearning for a good bagel .

Right , I mean , you know other words are we looking at a very different thing , like I even see with my younger daughter , who's definitely the most Jewish in the family and you know , speaks Hebrew and you know , and goes to Chabad sometimes as well .

I see a very different kind of Judaism from her than I would have seen from what you know , marshall and I , both growing up in New York with you know , sort of the sort of you know , the descendants of the early immigrants . Do you think there'll be a different character to Judaism as it becomes less New York-centric and more Southern ?

So they're not big , sprawling congregations , Seem to be more open and willing to embrace thinking of young people and not try to force different Jewish thought on on their congregations

. So I'm hopeful that it works . You know , we have a lot of Jewish schools here in Atlanta that are working hard and got some very big donations from the wealthier people in our Jewish community . So I'm hopeful that that'll continue to grow .

From traveling , from getting started , from meeting someone which is remarkable , specifically to Austin , we were seeing something very special . Now we have two members of the community . One is the Chabad rabbi , mendy Levitow , and another enterprising Jewish here , more established also , who left California to come to Austin , and they're setting up a new building .

Speaking of villages , so a new building for the Chabad house is going to be called temporarily named the High House , and just the design itself looks closer to a Soho house than it would to a Chabad house . So it's not only around the foldable plastic chairs and the Friday dinner and it's also about a place for people to have .

They call it a third space , so another place for the community to be around . I can book it , I can have a talk there , I can have a session there , I can use a conference room . So I think Chabad understands that Judaism as a product needs to service other areas or cater to other areas of our identity .

And if it's only left on the Jewish bookshelf or in the synagogue . For many of the younger Jews , being Jewish becomes a liability . They get the hate , they get the resentment , they get the stigma way before they can enjoy the benefits , and that's something that's slowly being recognized by institutions all over the country .

They now raise more money than the Jewish Federations of North America . Here in Miami , you go back 30 years and we had five Chabad operations . I think we're close to 30 Chabad operations now . And Chabad recognized , for example , the growth of the Jewish population in downtown Miami , which tripled between 2004 and 2014 and has continued to grow today .

And they put a multimillion dollar facility right in what we call the brickle area . Okay , and khabar is drawing people left and right . They don't have dues . That's part of it , right ?

And there's a stone's throw away there was a restaurant called Motech playing music that I would never imagine I would hear outside of Israel , let alone on a beach in Miami , and so many staffers in the hotel had either a Chai or an Israel map . I found myself saying more Shabbat Shalom in Miami than I would in Ra'anana in Israel .

I would have thought that , given kind of the free range of today's society , of today's youth , that that would be something that they would not be able to get over . How are they dealing with that ?

different roles . It's a hard choice to make and it's a nudge . It's a nudge out of the religion rather than a way to bring them in . I think cater to the sign of the times if you and find a way to reconcile those , those contradictions .

You know different genders . So , and I think to Tal's point , in order to be successful , and particularly , you know there are a lot of secular Jews , at least in Atlanta , that would be more welcomed , or they would be more interested in a kind of a Jewish entity that accepts kind of modern beliefs in what Judaism can represent , I think .

on what do you think the impact of Jews moving to the South will be in the long term on the Jewish identity in the United States which , again , historically , is very much tied to the Lower East Side and maybe to some extent to Hollywood ? How does the Southernization of the Jews change who Jews are and how we would will be regarded in the country ?

Anyone wants to start .

So I think that I think the good part of this is that this is this is parents moving to Atlanta to be with their children and their grandchildren , and also younger couples or younger Jewish kids moving to Atlanta to be where their parents are , and so this is all good for us .

I mean , we've seen , we continue to see , growth in the Jewish community here and I think it will continue along that path . Hopefully it will .

Having done 53 local Jewish community studies , it is absolutely impossible that 64% of Jews in Atlanta moved in in the past year . 64% of your sample did , but unless you spent about a half a million dollars today , you did not get a random sample and so the 64% can't be correct .

When Jews move here they do not really leave the New York metropolitan area . Their neighbors are mostly from the northeast and from the Midwest . Okay , and you know when we're talking about the south . If you want to look at places like Montgomery , alabama , they do have a problem with what I call a threshold number of customers .

You know , if you only have 5,000 Jews in town , you are really kind of limited as to what your community can possibly offer and if that number is declining you're going to lose your Jewish newspaper . The JCC is going to have to scale back , synagogues are going to close .

That's different from the experience that Mark is talking about in Atlanta or I'm talking about in Miami , where we do have growing Jewish populations . We have significant numbers and we can afford to offer the types of services that Jews are used to and the types of programs that Jews are used to in the Northeast and in California . Got it .

At some point me and my business partner we realized that we need a different vehicle because we can't donate ourselves out of this current situation , and we started a fund , a venture fund , a for-profit organization that's aimed to invest in Israeli and Jewish-led defense technology startup and help them scale in the US .

We figured it'll help us do a few things protect the West , support the Israeli economy and funnel resources to the people who can make use of them something in a more regenerative way . To our surprise , we had a lukewarm reception from the Jewish community at large . A lot of them had already donated as much as they could . They had nothing left to give .

Some of them said look , if it's Israel-related , it's charity , it's not for profit , it's not an investment . I don't want to confuse those two buckets , right ? And when we saw that reception and we went to our other allies .

And when we saw that reception and we went to our other allies Christian living in the South traditional industries , oil and gas , money , doctors , etc . And to our surprise , they immediately referred to the Judeo-Christian values and got on board .

They were our biggest donors and some of our biggest fans and to this date they're some of our biggest and to this date they've come about in most involved collaborators .

So all this to say that some of the opportunity here is in really fortifying and strengthening alliances that were dormant for years but now they feel they've been called to arms to protect the Jews , to protect Israel and and they've been incredibly helpful to us . We hope we'll have a chance to reciprocate and support them in that way .

But it makes me very optimistic because it adds another element , another dimension to the Jewish cause .

We're in the midst of a transition and , from what all of you are saying , there's some very hopeful elements .