The Feudal Future .
By Cast .
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Feudal Future Podcast . I'm Marshall Teplansky , I'm Joel Kottkin and today we are continuing our series on the quality of education in the United States , and we're delighted to have with us three really interesting guests to talk about the quality of Catholic school education .
First we have Stephanie Soroky-Degarcia , who is the co-founder and managing director of Seton Education Partners . Welcome , stephanie .
Thank you , glad to be here .
And we have Soledad Usura , who is our old friend , helping us in the area of looking at Latino education in particular and doing a tremendous research in that area . He is very active in the Venice Neighborhood Council and a finance executive and , soledad , we're delighted to have you . Thank you , I'm glad to be back .
And finally we have Tony Lemus , who is a professor of engineering , longtime friend of the show and a Catholic school product himself , and we are delighted to have you , tony .
Great .
Great to be here . Great Joel , kick us off .
I really want to start with something you said to me , soledad , that going to Catholic school saved your life , as you had been going to public school in LA and then you went to Catholic school , maybe the audience would be how did it save your life and what did it do to achieve that ?
Well for the audience who's listening . The sad fact in California is that public education is a failure , especially if you are a minority . If you are poor , education is dust . To me it's your ticket out of the hood . But sadly , what we see in California is that you are educationally redlined into your zip code .
So , unfortunately , if you're poor , you go to a poor , failing school . So I grew up in East Los Angeles , el Sidenile , and I went to school there up until sixth grade . At that time my grades started failing . I was getting Ds and Fs , which was very different for me because I was someone who was very succeeding academically .
But it was clear that I wasn't going to make it if I stayed in public school , and so at that time my parents made the decision . I moved to South Pomona , which is actually a poorer , more Latino working class neighborhood , but they had affordable Catholic schools there , and so once I went to school , in Catholic school , I thrived .
I went to an all girls Catholic school , pomona Catholic , and I ended up getting a full ride to see Santa Barbara , and so that's really what propelled me .
But I really believe that if I never had the chance to go to Catholic school , I would never have made it to college , and that's a very sad fact , that what you see in the world looking at is that it actually costs more .
If you're poor to thrive in California because you can't rely on public schools , you're going to have to have money to send your kids to private schools .
So , tony , what was your experience ?
So again in the Latino community . I grew up near a housing project so it was high crime infestation in there . So my parents made a sacrifice and they took both of them got jobs to send me to Catholic grammar school . So I went to Catholic grammar school for eight years with the sisters of holy name .
They were my teachers and then I went to Loyola High School , which is a judge , with All Boy High School in Los Angeles . I used to take a bus for an hour ride from where I lived all the way down Venice Boulevard to go down to school .
And then after that I went to Santa Clara University , a Jesuit University , and did my undergraduate work there and then did my graduate studies at UC Irvine .
I got to say that it kept me away from the gang violence and all the bad things , but it gave me a sense of focus and I think the benefits of the Catholic education I see today and I shared that with my kids , who I sent to Catholic school as well , teaching about the holistic education of the individual mind , body , soul which is really learning it from
the first grade all the way through a university environment . I think that's something you don't get in the public schools . It's more than just academic grades . It's about building the person , and I think that's what a Catholic education does .
Stephanie , you spent so much of your career helping to establish Catholic schools and promote Catholic schools . What is the secret sauce ? What makes Catholic school education really different from public school education ?
Yeah , Catholic schools understand what it means to be human , so it is truly mind , body and soul . They give children a sense of something greater than themselves . They honor the inherent dignity of every child . They say that you are a gift in this world and that you are called to use your gifts to do good in this world .
And that gives children a sense of purpose , a sense of direction and an understanding that they themselves are unique and special and made for a purpose .
There's something about the environment of Catholic schools with parent involvement or the way it's structured that really sets it apart . How do you avoid the bad things that we hear about in public school education ?
Yeah . So Catholic schools honor parents as the first and primary educators of their children , and so what you're seeing now more and more in our public schools , our schools , are getting in between parents and their children , which is a huge catastrophe .
Catholic schools say , no , you're the first educators and we're going to honor your role and we're going to partner with you to help you raise your children . They tend to be no cell phones in schools , which are huge distractions , especially in the middle school and high school areas .
Kids are in uniforms , there is more structure , there is more discipline , and so Catholic schools have a great emphasis on academic excellence , but they also spend a lot of time helping nurture the character of children .
So I know you were some thoughts about the uniforms and the role of uniforms , which , to people like us , we don't know this stuff , so why don't you tell us ?
So one thing , talking about the discipline is really Catholic schools give you the discipline that one craves , and what I found was that the uniforms were sort of paramount to all of this , especially for someone who's poor .
And my grandparents met picking fruit in Salinas County , so I didn't have a lot of money , but what I found was that the uniforms when you go to school you can't tell who's poor and who has money . For the entire school year I had two skirts and five blouses . What that taught me was I had to really take care of my blouses .
I would have to bleach them , wash them and I'd have to iron them every Sunday , and so what it taught me was to really take care of my items . Sort of in the military , when you're given a uniform and you have to take care of that item , so it really teaches you a sense of self where you have to cherish something and take care of it .
And but what I also think too , is that you know , especially if you're poor , this is the best to have a uniform , because we would have free dress Fridays and I would still show up in my uniform because what I see today .
I talked to some of my younger family members and they're going to public school and so much of this class status symbol is what people are wearing , and I'm so thankful that I did not have that when I was in school , that I didn't have to worry about what kind of jeans I had or you know what kind of purse I had .
We weren't allowed to have anything like that . Even you know , I went to an all-worlds Catholic high school which you know , we weren't allowed to wear makeup . We were not allowed to wear nail polish . So I am just so thankful that I did not have any of those distractions when I was younger , because I had the rest of my life to worry about those things .
Well , you know , the structure that you're talking about is kind of intrigues me a little bit , because we're in , and probably have been in for decades , this kind of permissive culture in society that basically says , ok , anything goes , you've got to be authentic , you have to be true to your authentic self and you know the heck with discipline .
Well , that must be . That must put Catholic school education at loggerheads with teachers unions , with with the rest of society . How do you , what are you finding out there in terms of that , how Catholic school education fits into the broader world ? What kind of pressures do you find that you're getting ? Mm , hmm , I want to just start us off , Tony .
Yeah , so I think I the point that the parents are the primary focus to in the Catholic education . But the sense of discipline is really key and that's what you sign up for , that's what you send your kids to Catholic school .
So they focus on being mind , body , soul , and I always have to bring that up because that's really what the focus of a Catholic education is . Yeah , there's discipline . Like , I wore uniform as well three years and then when I got to high school no boy high school we couldn't wear jeans , we had to wear colored shirts . If you didn't , we got in trouble .
We had this thing called jug , which is jurisdiction under God , and we had to go do punishment and , depending on severity of punishment , be lunchtime jug or after school jug or weekend jug . So you , you had level of punishment and it gave you time . You know everyone said , oh , that sounds horrible , but it gave you time to reflect .
And sometimes when you're doing jug , you're reflecting on what you did and you're working with others who you had you know other instances where they got in trouble , but you sign up for that . It builds the , builds character .
You know , if you just come into class late , you know just walk in after about your jug , but that's what you sign up for and it makes a better person . It makes you just more aware of things . But the big thing is the word discipline .
It really teaches you how you I mean , if you're late to work every day you're going to get fired it just teaches you in a high school environment to be on time , to dress nice . You know to shave , you got jugged .
These things are just things you take with you through life and it reinforces what you get in terms of understanding yourself as being a professional person , and I think public school doesn't provide that a lot .
Stephanie , do you , when you are trying to start these charter schools I visited two , one in Santa Monica and one in the Bronx Do you get a lot of pushback from the teachers union , the education departments ? Is that a struggle for you ?
We have intentionally tried to flow the fly below the radar of the unions . We will never launch a school that has unionized teachers . Unions put the interest of adults ahead of the interests of children , and so if our schools are charter schools , our charter schools are virtues based schools that are paired with daily after school Catholic faith formation .
So we launch charter schools with after school faith formation and we launch Catholic schools and our schools are counter cultural we I think the structure , the discipline , the character formation , all are very different than what you would get in a typical district school .
Are you just for help educate me on this . In Catholic school , do you have to provide the same testing for achievement in reading and in math that you would in public schools ?
You do have to provide . You do have to provide test scores . So our kids take the NWEA math test , ohio , which is where we have our Catholic schools , as a voucher . It's close to $6,000 . Our schools are sustainable on that $6,000 . We're educating children , getting better results and doing it at a lower price point .
But you do have to show how your kids are performing academically .
So this data for is available pretty much for every school that's out there . How does , how do Catholic schools stack up against public schools for achievement in these at the various grade levels ?
They outperform at both elementary and the high school and at both levels they outperform their district school counterparts .
And what do you find as far as proceeding on to university or other metrics of success in life beside the university ? You must measure the outcomes , in a way . What do you find ?
Much more likely for children who graduate from a Catholic school to go on and to graduate from college .
But I think one of the things I'm a little concerned about is , given the fiscal problems of the Catholic Church at Utah , san Francisco , and the Coyote bankruptcy , is this going to make it harder and harder to create Catholic schools , or are you finding a way around that ?
So I think there are two trends . The first trend is that Catholic schools had their height in the 60s and they have declined over time , and the reason they've declined is because their financial model doesn't work anymore . In the 60s , 95% of your staff were brothers , nuns and priests . Fast forward to today it's fewer than 5% of your staff .
So Catholic schools the Church was subsidizing the salaries and the benefits of the people who are staffing the Catholic schools . Well , today you have to pay a layperson a real wage , and so the Church is no longer able to offer free or close to free education , especially for new immigrants , which is their specialty .
So you see a decline of Catholic schools , especially in urban and inner city neighborhoods . But you're now seeing , post-covid , a huge growth in parental choice programs , school choice , and so state after state is beginning to pass school choice , and so that is opening up the doors .
Most of the families that participate in school choice programs participate in Catholic schools . That's where you have the bulk of your options for families , and so that is countering the previous trend of shattering of Catholic schools .
I think this . Forgive me if this is a dumb question , but I know when I talk to parents , and I have two kids that have both graduated and gone through the school systems . But a lot of people that have younger children who are not Catholic are actively considering sending their kids to Catholic school , largely because of this discipline and preparation for life .
What percentage of the students in Catholic schools are Catholic ?
The bulk of her Catholic , but in the inner city you see a much higher percentage of non-Catholics , so you'll see black families attending Catholic schools and the inner city district schools . I don't know the exact percentages .
I mean , do you find how do you handle the religious portion of the education versus the non-religious portion of the education ? Are they separable ? If a non-Catholic family sends their child to Catholic school , are the Catechism aspects of this required ? Are they baked in ? How do you deal with that ?
Yeah , they're required .
Families are signing up for a Catholic education and that's integral to a Catholic education , but there is deep respect , profound respect , for the faiths of the families that are non-Catholic , and so we have found that families have just said we love the values and we are praying more as a family , because my child is going to a Catholic school and that has made
our family stronger .
So where are we headed ? Do I say , in a state like California or New York where the pressure is really against charters ? I know , Soledad , we've just done a lot of research . What are the immigrant children and the working class children experiencing in the public schools ?
Well , if you look at some I mean , we're going to come out with this data soon and it's going to be very eye-opening but what you see is just massive failure , especially for Latinos among the public schools . And you ask yourself how is this allowable ?
Because it's not recent , it's not something that just came out of COVID , it's always been this way , and the reason for that is because the California Teachers Association is the most powerful force in all of California . If you were a Democrat , you probably got in money from this special interest group .
So if you're someone who speaks out about these failing task scores , you'll soon be out of office , and so that's something that has really conflicted the one-party state of California , where you can't bite the hand that feeds you , so unfortunately , you can't ever speak out about failing education , and sadly , what we're seeing is that it's just hurting minorities , it's
leaving them behind , and so until that's addressed and I don't know how you will do that we will continue to see these sort of results .
So this is part of the . I mean really , from the way you're framing it . Catholic school education is a necessary competitive force in a free market for education and that , really , if there's going to be any hope for public schools to improve , it's going to be because alternative modalities , such as Catholic schools , excel , and they have to .
You know , parents will just won't put up with it anymore .
And Marshall , what you're saying is we are experiencing a market failure , a public education . How do you correct a market failure ? You open up competition , and so that's exactly what charter schools can do , and I just like to also see what's different in the intellectual background .
I mean , marshall , and I talk about this . You know , when we talk to most of my students , particularly the ones who went to public schools even from fairly affluent districts , their knowledge level is incredibly low . They haven't been toward American history .
I'm in the odd position I do a lot of stuff on religion Of here I am the great grandson of a Latvian rabbi explaining to kids who are supposed to be Catholic who St Paul was . I mean , it's just like some sort of absurd experience . You know , is there something in the curricula that's different or in the teaching methods ?
Yeah , I go back to look at and I even practice the methodology and I go back to the Jesuits . The Jesuits have a methodology called the paradigm of learning and what you do is you engage your students to see where they're at . So you try to find where they're at , so you can engage them , you can get them involved in curriculum .
So the curriculum is experiential , so meaning that it's not just reading the book of Mycimben by John Steinbeck , but actually putting that in perspective . When I teach math and when I teach engineering , I start off my whole course . Have you ever torn apart this , this and see the beauty of how things are designed ? And then I ask about the universe ?
You know , these are things that are ingrained in a Catholic education . It's beyond the book , it's about application and action . It's doing something and finding purpose in what you're learning , and that's emphasized all the way through a Catholic education . You remember a lot of your teachers teaching you a lot of this . You don't find that in the public schools .
I think that also too , that I got to say this about Catholicism . It teaches you to find your purpose , but also to ask informed questions , and that's the real key of a Catholic education If you're going to get an academic learning .
You're also learning about your role and purpose and asking good questions to become even stronger in your beliefs and what your motives are in the future and how you want to act and help out the community . And that's the last part I wanted to say about Catholic education .
It really promotes the sense of community and to contribute to the community through service .
Yeah , I would also say that there have been many fads when it comes to curriculum , especially in California , but across the country , and Catholic schools are not required to have credentialed teachers , which means they ended up sticking with curriculum that was tried and true as opposed to doing new math or balanced literacy , and those fads have proven to be really
harmful to children . We're getting back to the science of reading , but Catholic schools were always doing the science of reading . They were doing phonics plus other instructional strands .
You know , historically one of the concerns that the lay community voices about any kind of parochial education is the religious indoctrination side of it , and that the argument is that , oh OK , this is just a recruitment exercise for whatever the religion is , whether it's Catholicism or Judaism or whatever . What's your response to that ?
I don't see that as an issue . I think when you go to a Catholic school , yes , you do learn about the doctrine but you're really learning about the life of Jesus and actually learning about his whole path . St Paul is a letter . It's a letter to St Paul and understanding kind of the theology part , but it's the decision date .
It's a personal decision about religion . You're being informed about the Catholicism but religion is a personal choice and I think it helps your personal choice and strictens that and you could decide what you want to be after a Catholic education . You could .
I know a lot of students at the local Catholic high school here to actually convert to Catholicism and I know a lot of others who do not join the Catholic faith . So I think it provides you a good framework for putting context into how God relates into your life and I think that's one of the benefits of Catholic education .
It puts that context together for you and then you make the personal journey choice about what you want to do with your life .
So Well and it also it sounds to me like there's an emphasis . What I'm hearing from you is that there's an emphasis on universal values , not just specific religions .
Values although there's , the similarities between most religions are much greater than the differences between most religions , and so it sounds like the ability to teach the values and create an environment where there's some discipline about keeping you pure to those values is kind of the essence of what you're doing in Catholic education .
Is that accurate or yeah , I think it's naive to assume that any school is value neutral . If you want to talk about indoctrination , look at our public schools . They are indoctrinating children and oftentimes they are anti-Catholic and anti-Christian , and so there is no such thing as a value neutral school .
Catholic schools have a set of values that are widely accepted . I mean , we focus on the cardinal virtues of courage , justice , wisdom and self-control . Think about that . Who does not want their child to have courage and to lead with justice and to have self-control ? These are virtues that I've tried to grow in myself , even though I'm 47 years old .
But I would just say that there are no values neutral schools and Catholic schools have a set of values .
And one point that I'd like to make is we often joke about Catholic guilt , but I think that having a moral compass is something that's very important for anyone . What has always been sort of in my brain since the sixth grade is you have to treat others the way that you would want to be treated .
And even though I went to you see , sina Barbara I lived in New York for nine years I will still feel guilty sometimes if I am rude to someone . I have had an experience where I am rude to a cashier and I will think about it and I will go apologize to them .
So I think that teaching children these fundamental concepts to treat others the way that you would want to be treated is very valuable and is something that's not taught in public school .
I also . You know , one thing I experienced with some of my students is people who had gotten out of high school , let's say , four or five years ago , is they're taught things like all white people are racist . I mean that's literally . They've had classes where they promote that kind of ideology .
I don't see how a society can go like you know , a multi-racial society like ours can survive if you're deciding that anybody who's white is a racist .
And you know , in one of my classes it was amazing to hear the stories when they really felt that they could share them and the two people who were most upset were those of mixed race because they said well , my father's not a racist , you know , I mean they might be part Korean , part Filipino . I mean it was every imaginable mixture .
So I think in some ways these universal values become more important in a multi-racial society , because if you're just teaching sort of tribalism , it's not going to work out very well .
Well , and you know , the other thing I think that's important here that Catholic school seems to do a good job of addressing is getting past this ingrained narcissism that we teach people .
You know , we , this whole notion of you've got to be true to your authentic self is basically an excuse to focus on you at the expense of everybody else and to be able to actually say no , you know what you actually live in a society that has values , and you need to treat other people with respect and the way you would want to be treated , which is , I
think , a universal truth . Get yourself out of you and into being part of a society is kind of your core message here .
And I think that's very healthy . Do you find that that's one of the things that attracts a parent , Stephanie ?
Yeah , safety , good academics and values yeah .
And just out of curiosity , as you are out creating these institutions that are value based in communities , what other groups do you find are allied with you ? Are they other religious groups that also want to do this , or are they , I mean , who tends to be your natural allies ?
Jewish school are natural allies , and I mean , I don't know that there are other Christian schools . Jewish schools are natural allies .
Yeah , I actually visited and used in a Greek Orthodox school and what I loved about it was and of course I'm a classic classics were . My background was the fact that by the fifth grade they had to know either Latin or Greek and then they were adding Arabic as a third language . Just the discipline .
I mean , if I was to say what was the biggest key to whatever success I've had is , I had seven years of Latin and it taught me discipline and understanding of language .
And also , you know , the excitement of reading Caesar in the original was just an overwhelming experience and I think that we're cheating this generation of kids Just like for my daughter who went to a Jewish school to read the Torah in the original is a pretty amazing thing , and I think we've just taken that out of education , that tide of the past , and so
they really think . Maybe they feel that the Kardashians created the world or something , and I just think they didn't .
I thought that they did .
And I just think that the need for that pushback . But the problem is , I don't know , and maybe there's more of a political question Is there any strategy that we could have , let's say here in California or in a state like New York , to begin to move our education system in a different direction ?
Because you know , whatever people say , well , I don't like this or that about the charters I said , compared to what we have in the public schools , I mean , this is clearly not working . Is there a political strategy here , or do you just do it with sub-diffuse ?
I mean the political strategy is school choice , but California and New York are the toughest places to go through the past .
Well is there , and I guess my question would and this is , I think , where you're driving is what will precipitate the diminution of power by the teachers unions ? What is it that will trigger ? Is it just people being fed up and basically unplugging it , or what will happen ? Sorry , go ahead .
You need to have parents who are fed up and are willing to vote on education issues .
So just parents reasserting control ? Yes , yeah , and are the parents I mean you know the one of the maybe this is a benefit of being a college professor as opposed to being in the K-12 system ? I don't deal with a lot of parents . Are parents Becoming reengaged more frequently ? Are you finding that there's just a level of apathy ?
Back in my day it was you know , teachers know best and obviously we're in a different world . What are you finding out there ?
I'm finding that COVID has reengaged parents . It's a silver lining of that entire tragedy is that parents have woken up to the dysfunction at their schools .
Yeah , because they realized they spent more time with their kids than they probably ever envisioned and had to deal with . Okay , what am I going to do to educate my own kid here at home , probably as the most ?
likely , and also they got to see what was the curriculum .
Yeah , and they write it and so , and the schools were open too . So I mean , the Catholic schools went against the grain and had in session classes , while the rest of the schools were closed , which is a big thing , and I have to go back .
You know , the sad part is , in the Latino communities and in the communities that are impoverished , they didn't have access to internet like we do in a lot of our cities , so they suffered a lot and they were trying to do online learning while the schools were shut down .
And I have to agree that the parents see that and then they realize , wow , our children are getting behind it . They really care . That's , I think , what's driving that whole parental type of I need to get involved now and it's a good thing .
I think COVID yes , it was negative , but also , I think , drove parents to be more engaged , by the way , just out of curiosity because , now that you've brought that up from a COVID point of view , is there data that showed that the incidence of disease was an infection was higher in Catholic schools than it was elsewhere ?
Actually , I think it was less because the younger I don't I can't remember the data sources , but I think the how COVID was . Actually the worst part about COVID was the elderly they got the worst case and the younger had .
So it was a relatively equal spread . Whether it was homeschooling or not , it was the elderly that had the biggest .
That makes sense and the Catholic schools wore masks . They were separated in distances so the schools took precautions out there , but I think they needed to be in the classroom . I mean , I was trying to teach a classroom . Covid is even at the university level . It's very difficult and I can just see how hard it is to do with children .
This is very difficult to do and the public schools then engage and the Catholic schools , I think , made a really great effort to try and engage their student bodies and it was tough . It was really hard and you have to give the Catholic schools a lot of credit for trying to go against the grain , because I know there's a lot of political pushback on it .
But they cared about the student , which is what Catholic education is about , and they did what they needed to do .
So , as we wrap up , what suggestions would each of you have for how we can promote not necessarily Catholic education , but a more values-based education ?
Is there any mechanism for doing that , or are we just going to live as my friend Aaron Wren writes about the negative world that maybe we're in a post-Christian era and Christians , and obviously Jews and Greek Orthodox , are just going to be outsiders and just a small faction ?
Is there any way to move the whole society , or is it really that we have to sort of just take care of our own ?
Why I hope that we're entering an era where parents realize they have choice . They have considerable choice . It's where they don't realize how much power they have .
So I hope that people start to wake up towards the failing public school rates and they realize that there is a market failure and we have to open up competition , because , well , we need us for parents to really show up , and we're seeing a tremendous shift in focus now , where they're waking up to what the curriculum is and sort of the indoctrination is , and
so eventually , once parents realize that they have a strong voice , they will be the catalyst that's needed to make some of these changes .
Stephanie .
Yeah , I think we need to advocate for school choice programs , for dollars to follow children , and the more we do that parents should ever write to send their child to the school that best suits their child's needs .
Tony last word for you .
Yeah , Tony .
Yeah , I think the parents have to stand up . I think it's really critical . I think the political nature in California and New York is really difficult . Our own governor went to a Catholic university and I have to say from the teachers union they're a powerful force and the parents have to just say enough is enough and actually stand up .
Well , and the test scores don't lie they are pathetic .
The level of the research that Soledad is doing shows that the level of students that aren't even meeting the basic proficiency in third , sixth , eighth grade is just off the charts bad , and so if we don't want to have a feudal future ahead of us , we need to do something and take some control over it .
Well , and Gershaw . I'd like to point out that it's not just the test scores . I remember being at school in the sixth grade and for physical education they would just line us up and we would play handball and I thought , why are we playing prison sports ? They're just getting us ready for prison .
What sport would have been better ? Well , they could have you know , maybe basketball , but basketball .
Getting us ready for prison .
Well , there's a bright future . I would like to thank the three of you for being part of the feudal future podcast . This is one of the key themes that Joel and I have focused on this year , which is how do we improve the quality of education . I think this is just a wonderful start of the conversation .
So , Stephanie , Soledad and Tony , thank you so much for being guests on the feudal future podcast . Thank you .
Thank you , that was fun .