Hello, this is Febz Talks, the podcast series of Febz, the foundation for European Progressive Studies from Brussels. My name is Lars Lohander, I'm the Secretary General of Febz. I'm the host today and I have the great pleasure to welcome Febz Esther Lynch, who is my guest today. She is the General Secretary of ETUC, the European Trade Union Confederation. Esther, welcome to Febz. It's great to be here, Lars Lohander. Thanks for having me.
Thank you so much for accepting our invitation and I should highlight that this is a kind of critical period from the point of view of the European institutions. Everybody prepares for the parliamentary elections, which will be followed not only by the installation of a new parliament, but also a new European Commission. So this is a kind of stock taking time and I would like you to take stock of the recent cycle, but also to discuss a little bit the future as you see it.
And I thought the very good starting point could be a recent event, which was a kind of summit, a social summit for all stakeholders and institutional leaders of the European Union who are interested in social questions. In La Ulp it was organized by the Belgian presidency. It took place in the middle of April. This was focusing on the pillar of the social rights and what progress
has been made and what progress should be made. How do you see the significance of this La Ulp summit and the declaration, which was adopted and signed by most participants at the end? I think it's a good place to start because it marks a milestone and the milestone, the La Ulp declaration marks is not only to say the European pillar of social rights was really important in guiding developments in the last political mandate, but it will be essentially important in the coming
political mandate as well. And I think there's some very important points or directions, roads that we need to walk down in the next period, such as how are we going to achieve a managed change and very importantly, it says change needs to be managed with social partners, absolutely recognizing the prerogatives that uses that word, the prerogatives of trade unions to be part of that discussion. It also says we need to look at developments like artificial intelligence and to make sure
the use of that, particularly in the workplace is fair. It talks about fair working conditions, about the challenges of creating quality jobs, the importance of creating quality jobs, the importance to have equal attention to the quality of the jobs that we're creating, not just that we are creating jobs. So for us, the La Ulp declaration, I was very proud to sign it on behalf of working people in their trade unions in Europe. Very disappointed that the employers didn't come to
the table to sign that some of them did. So SGI Europe did, SME United did, I suppose, reflecting the, we say, very real concerns of, we say, services of general interest, the challenges that they can look to be facing to provide quality services to the people who rely on those, whether it's transport or whether it's public services, you know, the real challenges ahead.
But also SME United, I think, you know, reflecting very clearly that small firms have a lot in common with working people in the challenging exploitative environment, both that they often have to operate in the same as ourselves representing working people. So the consensus is definitely in and around the La Ulp declaration. The majority, vast majority
of member states also signing it. So the middle ground isn't gone. And the middle ground is doing a lot better than many commentators would have us believe. But you didn't see a full political agreement, because there are some who participated but didn't eventually sign. So how do you see, is this a kind of serious fragmentation of the broad consensus or it can be overcome? I think that there's definitely a lot of fraying at the edges. But there's also
deliberate attempts to try and exploit the challenges. And rather than to seek European solutions based on everything that we have to be proud of, which is our social model, and recognizing that our European social model is an actual, say, fundamental building factor for Europe's competitiveness, rather than looking and promoting that and being proud of Europe, a lot of actors now, we're not some actors, are now paying much more attention on trying to have
a deregulation agenda, one which isn't based on cooperation and support and everybody's succeeding, but one that's based more on cutthroat competition. And in the last mandate, we saw that there was a rejection of that, particularly the minimum wage directive that said, you know, there's a threshold of decency below which no member state, no company should be able to compete. And Nicola Smith's leadership in particular in bringing that forward also said that wages
should be fair. How do we make them fair by promoting an environment where collective bargaining, where trade unions, where workers have their fair share of the profits that they're creating? So, yeah, it was very, very disappointing that in particular, business Europe, part of the discussions got a lot of compromise within the Luhupe Declaration, but then didn't take that
final step to sign it. And that reflects a similar tactic that was used when the biggest disappointment for me in the past couple of years was the collapse of the negotiations on a directive on telework and the right to disconnect, not because we disagreed with anything that the employers were asking for, the employers were unable to ask us for anything. They literally walked away from the table. So, it is a problem if we have social partners which can't conclude a
deal. But that's for business Europe to look to how they can develop their organization and the employers how they can develop their organizations in a way that they can come to the table with a negotiating mandate, compromise and then be able to conclude agreements. I was listening to many discussions in Luhupe and I think a lot of speakers emphasized that what is at stake is whether the European pillar of social rights remains a reference point for the policy dialogue
and decision making in the next period. What is your assessment of the pillar of the social rights and especially the period since the entry of the Fundal Lion Commission, which also added the so-called action plan announced in Porto a few years ago? The European pillar of social rights has really important commitments for working people. For example, it guaranteed a fair wage and adequate wage and that's what gave life to the minimum wage directive. Nicolai Schmidt,
a commissioner, able to rely on that to bring forward a directive. Also, on platform work, the commitment in the European pillar of social rights to recognize secure forms of employment, not precarious forms of employment. Again, an example of how the rights set out in the European pillar of social rights can be built upon by legislation to give a real effect to those.
Also, equal pay for work of equal value. Helena Daly as commissioner, coming forward with a really important directive on pay transparency that importantly puts into the hands of trade unions the ability to put on the table. Why is it that the jobs which are predominantly done by women are paid so little? I'm thinking in particular of caring, I'm thinking of cleaning. Why is it that the company values them and pays them so little when the actual value to the company is much higher?
So it'd be really interesting in the coming years to see what workers and their trade unions will be able to do with that important directive given to us on the initiative of Commissioner Daly. So there are real examples of how the European pillar of social rights can make its way into the everyday workplaces of working people backed up with trade unions, making sure that the injustices and the unfair terms and conditions of employment can be challenged. And I think that's what's
interesting in the discussion that we had there. It wasn't, well, that's it, everything solved. What we had was a discussion which was what are the unfair terms and conditions that we need to seek to sample into the future. And a lot of that about artificial intelligence, but also about managing the green and digital transition. All too often we hear politicians like, so you would
hear them like, I would, they would say, you know, we'll, we leave no one behind. But then when you ask, well, where's the plan to make sure no one's left behind, then then there's a lot, a lot of blank spaces in the conversation. So what we're saying is that a key instrument that we will need in the coming period is a directive on just transition that will guarantee workers the right
to have information in anticipation of the changes that will come. It's all too often way too late that trade unions get called in only at the point at which, you know, workers are going to be made redundant. Whereas if intervention took place much earlier, we'd be able to save jobs, we'd be able to help people go to a different employment if they had to. We'd make sure that they get access to training, access to the supports. But also we need to think about the wider picture of it as well.
We can't leave whole communities left devastated when an important industry leaves. We need to think about a Europe wide industrial policy that addresses all of those questions. So every sector, every occupation, every region can in fact succeed and not be left behind. But that's why investment is so important. Yes, what you are saying about the just transition and potentially
a directive on this reminds me the discussions 10, 15 years ago about restructuring. I think there is a similarity between the two, the expectation that economic and social policy together can manage the unexpected, to manage shocks, to manage transformations better than a laissez faire approach. I agree. We saw that with the shore instrument. So when we had the COVID crisis, everybody came together. Everybody said this is something that
we need to work on at European level. We need to involve workers, we need to involve companies, we need to have an instrument that protects labour in this time of crisis. We need that same level of enthusiasm and urgency about the green and the digital transition. Everybody needs to be brought together. But also there needs to be an EU wide instrument to support the positive projects that can be put forward. You mentioned the minimum wage directed, you
mentioned shore. These instruments I think represent something which was not expected at all. Some people would even say that the EU social policy making went beyond what was expected reasonably because nobody had in mind such achievements beforehand. How would you comment on this? Well, famously it said that Europe will develop in how it responds to the different
crises that it will face. So one the crisis was the COVID crisis and that was a really good example of how by getting together, having that instrument, we made sure that companies didn't have to go out of business, workers didn't lose all their skills. That was an important collective response to a collective crisis. And the benefit of that will I think be seen
over the long period as well as the short. But this is where we're most worried is that the type of investment that was made available, the suspension of the economic rules to make sure that that investment was available, that is too soon to go into a time of debt cutting. What we need now is a lot more investment to focus towards the green transition in particular.
So that's why we're particularly worried about this adoption this week of the economic governance rules because those rules will constrain member states in their ability to put the money into both infrastructure, whether it's roads or hospitals or schools or transport or housing. And I think that actually was one of the interesting discussions going back to where we started in the L'Houp was that there is a growing understanding that among policymakers,
working people know this because of their real lives. But there's a growing understanding among policymakers that how much rent costs has an impact on whether you can find workers. Because if you can't afford to live in the area where the jobs are, and if there's no public transport to get you into work and home on time, then you can't afford to do the job. So all of those things play into
each other. And the idea that we can be competitive on the basis of cutting back on regulation and not investing in the future infrastructure that we need to have is frankly embarrassing that economists or others will put forward that idea. It's embarrassing for them because it's quite clear that the transitions that are needed, if you look at what China is doing, if you look at America is doing, if we look everywhere else in the world is investing at this time because
this the transition needs investment. Absolutely. Before we elaborate on this further, I would like you to highlight just one additional aspect of the minimum wage directive, which is the importance of collective bargaining and the response to this intra-European asymmetry, that in some countries the social dialogue is well developed, well established, institutionalized, and in other countries there is a precarious condition for trade unions in general, but also let's say a
minimalist approach to social dialogue and very weak standards of collective bargaining. Do you think this directive will help and if it does, in what time frame? So the directive is already having an impact in particular on minimum wage setting. We've seen increases in minimum wage being laid importantly by Germany, so there was a recognition of the threshold of decency that's
within that directive. The directive says that member states that have statutory minimum wages must ensure that they are adequate and it says that that's 50% of the average or 60% of the median and that and that requires increases everywhere. So there's no member state that's paying an
adequate minimum wage that those minimum wages really need to be increased. Now I know I've been a minimum wage worker and I know if I was listening to this I would think that it was appalling for somebody like me to say that minimum wages are adequate because I know how hard it is to make ends meet, but I also know that it's very important for us to put the case that those minimum wages are increased because every euro makes a difference for hardworking families who are minimum wages.
So that that's a really important threshold for us to ensure that member states aren't seeking to have internal competition inside the EU on the basis of having very low statutory minimum wages, but also what we know for absolute certainty is that the only way to have a fair wage is to empower workers so that they can join the union without fear and have their right to collective bargaining properly recognised and throughout Europe it's mae'n dweud y rydyn ni'n ddweud y cyfnodd cyd-feydd.
Dwi'n ddim yn i gyd yn ddweud y ffyrdd yn y ffyrdd yn Llywodraeth, mae'r ffyrdd yn cyd-feydd ar gyfer y dda, ymlaen i'r ddweud y cyfnodd, a'r ddweud y cyfnodd yn ddweud y gyrfa o'r cyfnodd yn gweithio'r byw o'r cyfnodd yn cyd-feydd. Mae'n ddweud y ffyrdd yn ddweud y gyrfa'r ffyrdd yn gallu'r ddweud. Felly maelangu ar y dyfodol fydd ei hyn yn y gweithio, gyda sefydliwnol gwaholaeth yn gweithio gweithio,
bwy, gyda siarad yn gweithio os rhaid. Mae gen Weiniddo anhyglwad yn gweithio, mae gennyddo mytheid, uh, mae'n cael ei dda i'r ddweud o'r iawn lle fydd iawn iawn, mae'r ddweud yn fricolunillu lle mae'r gweithio yma. Felly mae'r gweithio o'r ffordd, dwi'n gennych fy rhai newid ar y gweithio gwaholaeth, Felly, ac felly mae'n rhaniaeth gweld yn syniad cyd-gweithio sydd â dubod o g gaming yr sandfwynt.
A rhaniaeth sydd o grwm yma sy'n debyg yn dod bwysig o'r cyd-gweithio yn cael ei cyflwyno ar y cyfwynedd. Pan oedd yn rhaniaeth i gwybod – o'r cyd-gweithio'n gwybod wedi'u cyflwyno yn y cyld-gweithio'n cyd-gweithio. Fy nid oedd yn ddweud ar gyflwyno'n cyfrifiadau sy'n teimlo i ddwy am rhan."
"Yn y cyfrifiadau, mae'n ddweud ar gyfer, o'r cyfrifiadau sy'n teimlo i ddweud y cyflwyno ar gyfer?" Mae'n ddweud yn y cyfrifiadau sydd yn ddweud y cyfrifiadau sydd yn ddweud ar gyflwyno ar gyfer y cyfrifiadau sydd. a yna gynnwys ymdweud yr nall 'normal'ol, neu yn ôl hwnnw'r 'normal' y gallwn cofnol, rydych chi'n gyfarwyllion y легко a'r hynny i'r cyfnod briadau.
Bydd yna ond, yn y modd chi'r unrhyw gofyn i Alhamwell, ond fewn i'r digw yn mynd i ddechrau'r crosshwyth mewn hwnnw, a'r selun o sicrhau euro rhai cerddau mewn yw 12 lle. Och, hur ser du risken med det här normaliseringen? Eran har vi gått i en ny cykel av stöd? Eller, tycker du, är det en chans för en mer bannad ekonomisk managemål?
Jag tror att i luftholet european, y cyfnod triadau o'r cyfnod briadau mewn hwnnw, bydd yn dient yn ymgyrch, bydd yn ymgyrch, bydd yn ymgyrch, bydd yn yr olyg ac yn yr olyg. A rwy'n mynd i'r ymgyrch yn ymgyrch, bydd yn ymgyrch, beth dyna eich bydd yn y cyfnod briadau.
Maen nhw'r miadau 'durref ynghyd i'ch byth i'w ddweud, i'r ddweud os y llunio gweldau byd, yn y dweud ddweud, yn cael ei cyfan, hynny'n ei ddweud, o fwy o'r cyffredigol yn cydweud iawn o fffordd, ac mae'n ad replicaiaid fel rhai o'r blynyddol, yna'n acech chyddo i'r gweithio. Felly, y byddai'n gweithio yn ystod yn dweud o'r cyffredigol, ac byddai'n cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol.
Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol, ac mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol yn gweithio'n ddweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol. Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol.
Felly, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol. Felly, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol. Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol.
Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, maen nhw'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, oedd yna eich union eu Unedigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol yn dweud o'r cyffredigol? Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol sy'n dweud o'r cyffredigol a'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, boi'n dweud o'r cyffredigol. Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, oedd yna eich union eu dweud o'r cyffredigol, oedd yna eich union eu dweud o'r cyffredigol, oedd yna eich union eu dweud o'r cyffredigol.
Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol. Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol.
Mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol,
mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol,
mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, mae'n dweud o'r cyffredigol, list, items which you would like to see on the agenda. Yes. We have 12. So we have adopted our manifesto, it's called "Delivering a Fair Deal for Workers". The number one is "Better Jobs & Incomes" and interestingly, I know the social Democrats
have that as the number one on their list as well, it's our number one. Second one, "Ending Precariousness" because insecure work is creating insecurity, a feeling of insecurity among all workers. They're afraid if they make even the slightest mistake, they're going to be dismissed or they'll be put on some list, they won't get called in for shifts. So ending the
precariousness and fear at work is really important. But also then support for trade unions, support for collective bargaining as a pillar of democracy, but also as a way in which we keep workplace as fair and a way in which we make the European economy fair as well. Safe work, health and safety always comes very high up on workers. We say, "What's important to you coming from Europe?" They'll say the health and safety legislation. Importantly, I was looking today at figures
from the ILO which identified increase in deaths from working in high temperatures in Europe. So again, we say that the climate change being having a very real impact on workers. Number five, "Reject Austerity". We've already identified that and instead of austerity to have in place number six, an industrial policy that works for all workers and all regions, public, private sector, having building competitiveness through a genuine active policy for quality jobs everywhere.
Then ensuring that they're just transitioned through the directive, a fight against social dumping. We see long supply chains now and every step away from the main contractor or the main, there's less rights, less conditions, less pay because each person has taken their slice. And so by the time you get to the worker at the end, you can sometimes be looking at very precarius, very unfair working conditions, but the main person saying, "Everything's fine.
It's news to me that those people are not being given their rights and entitlements. That has to stop. We need to end those long subcontracting chains." Also, what we need to do is use public procurement
for public good. It is not sustainable for a member state to sign the Lluhuub declaration, say, and fully committed to the European Pillar of Social Rights and its achievements, but then when it's looking to buy services, it then goes for the cheapest offer based on less terms and conditions of employment, cutthroat terms and conditions of employment,
need to stop that. Member states need to go for companies which respect workers' right to bargain that have training in place, that are supporting the development of the workforce, but also that are socially responsible. So we need to change thinking and silos into a much more coordinated and deliberate approach to social progress for everybody, and that can't be achieved if the trillions of euros spent on public procurement are also part of the drive of a race to the bottom.
When it comes to health and safety, one of the key challenges that we want to see addressed in the coming mandate is psychosocial risks at work. And what, from talking to workers, they talk about stress, they talk about burnout, they talk about the consequence of the 24 hours connected culture. So we need to have a right to disconnect and what that means is recognizing
that workers cannot be contacted outside of their working time. We need to have much more flexibility in the hands of the workers as opposed to at the moment where all the flexibility is in the hands of the employers. But also what we want to have is recognized is ethical stress, and what we mean by ethical stress is take for example if you're a teacher or you're a nurse or you're working in a hotel or you know the service that you want to provide, you know that the
service that the patient, that the student, that the customer really needs. And you're not able to provide it either because of there's not enough time to do the work or there's not enough resources. The teacher can't spend the time with the student who's struggling because of the size of the class, the nurse can't spend the time with the very sick patient to comfort them because they've to
rush on to the next patient. And they go home every day carrying that ethical stress of not being able to do the service that they want to do because of the conditions that they're forced to work under. And that we think needs to be recognized as an unacceptable psychosocial risk that's put into the work environment by the employers. So we want to have that discussion as well that this idea
of ethical stress we also want to put firmly on the agenda. And of course there's a big link between the discussion on austerity and cutbacks and on the very real impact for the workers
operating in that type of an environment. Then finally what we're also looking for is the role of Europe in the world so that the so so that working people everywhere, so that Europe is standing up for working people everywhere thinking of Tunisia always comes to mind because the way in which I was treated there as a trade unionist as somebody going the solidarity message from working people to be told I had 24 hours to leave the country or suffer the consequences.
And your EU has a trade deal with Tunisia as if they are a part of the world properly respecting trade union rights and human rights they're not. So all of those difficult discussions and they are difficult discussions but workers want to be part of a European union that's great place for us to work, great place for us to raise a family, great place for us to grow old but we don't want
to do that at the expense of any worker anywhere else. We want to make sure that those workers have the same terms and conditions as we have and we look for much much more fairness in trade deals so that the competition for companies in Europe isn't on the basis of we say an abuse of human
rights somewhere else. Well it's really a complete list and I wonder if we could add just one more point which is about enlargement because the expectation is that in the next five years enlargement is going to be a more dynamic process than in the past 10 years and I was wondering whether unions specifically work with the the workers, the employees in the countries which
are on their way into the European Union? Yes we're very proud to take into membership trade unions from Ukraine, trade unions from Moldova, I went to Kiev, I've met with unions there, I've met with workers there, I've seen first hand the very real role that trade unions play in representing workers, both workers on the front line and workers as teachers, people making bread, people trying to go on with things and create a life for themselves and their family in a safe life and peace and
everything that they are all working for both in Ukraine but also for workers in Moldova and
their trade unions there. For us the biggest concern is that trade unions in particular in Ukraine are not being given the freedom to practice in the way that they should be and the government there doesn't properly recognise the trade unions and it should and the government there is not including trade unions in social dialogue in the way that's an absolute requirement to be part of the European Union so we're working with our trade unions there, working with workers there to you know to
set out a pathway, a roadmap that would promote properly functioning social dialogue within Ukraine. It's a great disappointment that in the EU Ukraine summit trade unions and employers organisations are not involved, they should be. I know that the EU commission has given an alert to the government of Ukraine to say social dialogue, it needs to pay more attention, a lot more attention to the
development and support for social dialogue even in times of crisis. International Labour organisation has a convention that says even in times of crisis that you can't deny trade unions so for us very committed to Ukraine part of the ETUC family, very committed in the long run but that's on the basis of the whole social icky including respect for trade union rights. Thank you so much and the last question is what is your plan for Labour Day?
Ah my plan for Labour Day is a day of friendship, it's a day of commitment between workers and their trade unions and I'm going to spend it in Vienna with the president of the ETUC, I'm invited by the OGB to Vienna to be part of their May Day celebrations so I'm very much looking forward to that. Okay so please say hello to Mr Katzian also from FEPPS. Thank you so much Esther for coming to
us and having this discussion. I think the pillar of the social rights and the loud declaration should be a reason for hope but I think it's also a lesson of the past years or decades that the hope doesn't translate into an improvement by itself so it's always a hard work and sometimes a struggle to ensure that progress happens. Thanks Leslo, thanks for the conversation. Thank you. bwysig.