Welcome to fetch talks the podcast series of the foundation for European Progressive studies find out more about us on Fest - fear of Dottie you. Music. Hello everyone today your host is Andre going to become a policy analyst in international relations at the foundation for European Progressive studies and we welcome you to our podcast series perhaps dog.
We are nearing to 150 episodes where you can find lots of interesting information on topics ranging from social issues economy politics and many more so you're welcome to check them out and today's discussion we would like to Target a very fascinating region and very fascinating as somatic scope and that is Brazil so Brazil's political landscape fascinates experts across the globe you it's vibrant democracy
complex social political landscape and the country's ability to navigate diverse ideologies and challenges while of course containing is is driving progress
mom suddenly Brazil is voice and actions have the potential to shame Global policies and contribute to finding solutions to pressing Global challenges these challenges could be climate change sustainable development or changing the the peace and security architecture what we want to discuss today is what changes should we expect to Au Brazil relations but also to the position of Brazil worldwide under the presidency of Luiz inacio Lula da Silva let's recall a quick facts
Luiz inacio Lula da Silva was elected and the second round on the 30th of October 2022 at the president of Brazil what is interesting and important is the first Brazilian to have a three-term presidency since.
Interior Vargas and he was inaugurated on the first of January 2023 so making that longer introduction we certainly are fascinated Brazil there's a lot of intricacies challenges complexities but we do have an excellent expert today to help us disentangle all these complex political charges that might emerge in the Brazilian see today with me is my other Foley is the executive director and co-founder.
Plataforma sipo and Brazil based Think Tank which focuses on issues of climate governance international relations my are obtained a master's degree from the Department of International Development at the University of Oxford and a bachelor's degree in international relations from the but official Catholic University and the Rio de Janeiro
Tamara welcome we are very happy and all I am really honored to have you today with us I would like you perhaps to tell us a few words about your organization and when and how it was established perhaps you can also share one two standout project activities that you think that our listeners should definitely follow
we're going to put you do hi everyone so thank you and Ray for the introduction as you mentioned we are Brazil based think tank we are an organization which is led by women and we conduct research communication and advocacy work on all things related to climate change Global governance and Brazil's foreign policy and one of the core mission
of support is precisely to Foster International cooperation among Brazil and other key partners and we see the European Union as one of them and that's why we're here today talking to you thank you I think what. The main topic we we invited you to discuss today as let's go with informally the prospects for Brazilian foreign policy and relations within the European Union.
Perhaps let's jump into our content related discussion let's look at the present and the future of you Brazil relations which of course you as an expert I haven't been following.
For many years and have a very good Insider look so how do you assess the current state of these relations and I'm sure that many of our listeners know that the saying that we can always strive for more Perfection so in that sense maybe you can also identify those areas that you think can be improved in terms of these relations what can be done to to reach better or more sort of discover more Synergy between both partners thank you Andre this is very very good question so I'll try to
be brief I see the current state of relation as a moment to rebuild Trust on both sides.
As you know Brazil has gone through a period of extreme turbulence starting with the controversial impeachment of former President Jimmy Rousseff in 2016 and then the imprisonment of then former president Lula which prevented him from running for presidency when he was leading the post and then the election of extreme right president jaybo scenario who despised International cooperation and who ultimately made Brazil and international paria for
many reasons but especially for his destructive policies those things Ironman and human rights and on the other hand the you also faced a very significant challenges for instance as a result of the mishandling of a large influx of refugees in 2015 the rise of the extreme right in some of the EU member states and the prolonged and to some extent painful brexit process so both
Brazil in the you have gone through significant challenges recently which no doubt has had an impact in the bilateral relations and I believe we are now in this moment of trying to put that behind and to regain Trust and to try to identify a positive agenda that could inform cooperation between them and.
I believe there is a genuine desire from the Brazilian government to work closely with the European Union during a recent visit of the president of the you commission to Brazil Lula actually mentioned a few areas where he thinks the you and Brazil have a ready a lot in common but areas that we could further elaborate
in terms of cooperation and these include efforts to enhance and reform multilateral institutions to promote peace and respect for human rights and naturally the issue of trade investment and sustainable development that encompassing apology so that encompasses the fight against climate change poverty and inequality so there's a lot to be done at the moment and I think we have a good moment for them.
Thank you that that sounds optimistic so gives a bit of a positive y value very beginning of our discussion what I would like to ask you is certainly a you is an important Act of but European integration is not the only game in town and obviously Brazil is a very important actor globally within the multilateral global system and there are others who are seeking its interests who are seeking Partnerships obviously we can mention us
we can mention China you can mention different formats like bricks and what I would like to ask you to explain to me and our listeners why you see these other actors perhaps some of them you could call them a liberal maybe less Democratic than a you what they bring to the table that that might also interest Brazil where do you see a you can successfully compete and maybe what areas.
You see that not necessarily and at the U has an advantage or something that it can still need to strengthen yeah to put it into context for audience China has been Brazil's main trading partner since 2009 and it's also a major economic and Investment Partners to all major South American countries and I think this is
Dynamic is likely to persist and the same applies to the US which did lose quite a bit of space in the region over the past ten years or so including as a result of China's increased influence but the US still very significant trade partner for Brazil and so is the you in many ways so now as you know we have a huge and heated debate about the yumiko so agreement and whether this will have any Prospect of enhancing those relations and I think
the agreement has a potential not only to increase trade which is an obvious one but also to Foster political cooperation between the two blocks and I'd say that this could open up possibilities for advancing relations on other areas including Investments variances in infrastructure renewable energies and other sectors and I think the agreement could also have geopolitical implications in the sense that.
Increasing exchanges between the two regions I think it's important for establishing a multipolar international water and devil and and thereby avoiding a dominant what we call G2 so configuration of the world which is entirely centered around the US and China but on the other hand in its current terms
I'd say that the agreement risks perpetuating and in balanced trade relationship where South American nations primarily export raw materials while they increase their Imports of industrial and chemical products from the you. There's also legitimate concerns that the deal could lead to Greater extractivist and deforestation pressures on mucosal countries given the emphasis that he has on the exports of commodities.
Such as soy livestock which are very closely linked to risk biomes such as the Amazon and the resiliency hard and finally there is a concern that has been raised by President Lula on multiple occasions recently which is the the agreement could harm the re industrialization efforts carried out by Mac assassinations for instance by allowing you companies to benefit from medical schools government's purchase in certain sectors so.
At the moment I think there's clearly some imbalances they need to be addressed but I see a lot of political will from Brazil which by the way has just assumed the presidency of makisu to work with the UN to try to find common ground and reach an agreement that is sin as beneficial and acceptable to both sides again thank you for trying to just playing I think the complex puzzle that sometimes as politics not only in Latin America or Brazil but worldwide
so it's not easy sometimes and very often be I would say issue 22 approach. You already made a few Reflections and view observations with within your.
Description that I think could be a bridge to another area thematic area that I think is very much important and crucial maybe even exist ensure some people would and experts would believe and now I am referring to sustainable development and Jessica logical transition I think even for those people who are not necessarily follow have a keen interest in the political scene in Brazil
they of course no Brazil for it's fascinating nature juristic attractions but we certainly know of the Amazon of Brazil being called very often the lungs of the planet so that key and crucial role so let's let's try to dive a little bit and to these issues which are Central to Brazil and Central to the European Union so again referring to your question or your suggestion of the need to rebuild and look for common areas maybe let's give our listeners a bit more context
so maybe a question looking at the tackling climate crisis or the energy digital transition sustainable urbanization there are number of years that the you could certainly it seems help what investment with support of Brazil could you maybe go a bit more into details and really maybe even explain to us the Brazilian tations so what would the Brazilian side the Brazilian Nation the Society of the political Elites except see as EU
bring to the table and also how would you see this being more balanced.
Partner driven these kind of insights and ideas I think would be very much interested for those of us who don't have that Insider knowledge of the society and political scene in I'll stop by mentioned some information about a survey that has been recently conducted across Latin American countries and interviewee around 12,000 people which declared that Europe is the preferred region for partnership compared to other regions of the world over two-thirds stated that they have a good or even
very good vision of the country's relationship with the EU and the same survey appoints all the nearly seventy one percent of the respondents and in the case of Brazil 61 percent declared the climate change is a global problem that concerns them the most.
So I believe this demonstrate that there is a significant potential to increase cooperation between Brazil and the you to address the climate crisis Germany is already the second largest donor of the Amazon fund and the EU has already expressed the desire to also contribute to the fun Brazil is the eu's second largest supplier of agricultural Commodities which of course creates
opportunities but also responsibilities to cooperate more closely especially on low-carbon agricultural strategies because not only do Brasil and 7 EU countries have enormous agricultural potential but this sector.
Also accounts for a large share of the greenhouse gas Emissions on both continents so it's very important to promote the exchange of good practice and cooperation initiative such as low-carbon agriculture plans methane emission reductions sustainable management of forest recovery of the Creator lens so there's a huge range of possibilities that could have a bruise use and European Union's contribution to climate change and when we think about investment.
That could potentially benefit both sides. During a recent visit to Brazil earlier this year the vice president of the you commission she has put forward the idea of a strategic partnership on critical minerals for the green and digital transition and this is an ambition is aligned with the you proposed critical raw materials act which seeks to achieve supply chain and Security in the European Union and Brazil does have vest
reserves of some of these critical materials and is also interested in receiving vestments to Foster its own green transition. But you talk a little bit about expectation so in terms of expectations I say the Brazil's political Elite and Society to a large extent are now less willing to act as mere providers of raw materials and have a stronger expectation of more equal Partnerships. So any project which is aimed at promoting an energy transition in Brazil in order to be more truly beneficial.
We must be careful not to repeat mistakes that we've seen in the past where Investments did not necessarily result in technological transfer a lot of those Investments were also marked by social environmental impacts the expansion of precarious labor conditions so taking
into account what I've just mentioned I believe we should be prioritizing opportunities for cooperation in science and technology and Innovation and the establishment of joint projects representing companies can participate not only in Mineral extraction but also in the production of added green technologies made from those critical minerals it's inevitably seems as a logical Pathway to take and and this case is to take this broader View
on the changes and modalities of cooperation that I needed even beyond that you Brazil cooperation so suddenly in Brazil for a number not even for a number of years so that gives birth to let's say it's intrinsically linked Brazil's role on the international Arena as someone who was. Thinking about multilateral or the global order Global relations.
Has a certain stance or position on how it wants to see the sort of international relations develop and that case it would be extremely interesting I think. For all of us to hear a bit on how this under the current president are you expect and see. This roll unfold we certainly can take climate combatting climate crisis as a case study goes example. To walk Harbors ill sees Global cooperation evolved under what structures are there any ideas on the reform process any changes.
Fine-tuning other these critical less critical. Maybe I'll start with this questions as introduction so let's look at that Global Dimension Brazil's role expectation perhaps its leadership role moving forward if you can share with us Brazil has been traditionally very vocal in calling for a reform of multilateral Institutions including the United Nations and within the United Nations.
The UN Security Council particular Brazil considers it to be ineffective and no longer representative of the current Global power distribution if you're compared to when it was established in the 40s and I think it's also the view of some European countries Germany for instance is a strong partner of Brazil in the call for reform of the UN Security Council so this is one area that has been traditionally a priority problems you and for Lulu
in particular but I see a lot of potential for the you and Brazil to cooperate in an area which we know is a priority for this Administration which is promoting the sustainable development goals not only within Brazil but globally and finally the issue of the reform of the financial system later this year in December Brazil will assume the presidency of the G20 which is a group that of course they you is also a part of and a topic that will be very high in the agenda is the issue of death
relief for developing countries and the need for is a structural reform of the financial institutions so that they are fairer and more more oriented towards tackling inequalities and not creating new ones at least as a sings to be the case today.
Friends since you have similar views to some extent he has recently hosted a summit to discuss precisely this issue of the Global Financial architecture so I think Brazil in the you can play a real difference in this International discussions for the reform and multilateral institution that we know today are not being capable to deliver the responses that we expect in terms of climate change
digital transformation peace and security among other things and I immediately want to Target I think something of a challenge.
That is Central to the current state of political debate in Europe which is certainly the brushes full-scale invasion of Ukraine and the shock waves that send across the globe so I think it's clearly the being here based on Brussels we have a sound understanding of the expectations we have for from this ongoing war and how we want to end it and how we want to see the emerging peace and security architecture Brazil being geographically distance far away from
nevertheless has always also played on a very important role in terms of trying to position itself as a piece actor certainly this area seems very challenging so Russia's invasion is a very challenging issue for almost everyone globally and I think it's again for us who are based here in Europe it's extremely useful and important to hear also how this issue of
let's say emerging or already changed security landscape piece landscape piece architecture is being viewed from Brazil what perhaps the trends. Expectations you would have regarding the discussion on this specific issue of Peace security worldwide as again I just to to confirm I think it's very Central now to EU so certainly I'm sure it comes up.
And all of the discussions or behind the scenes even if you discuss other areas that we targeted together this is a topic which is gathering lots of interested in Brazil and elsewhere. I think it's important for us to start with what is Brazil's position in relation to the war. Brazil's official position condemns the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Brazil voltage against Russia the UN General Assembly on two occasions including a resolution that demanded Russia to immediately and its invasion of Ukraine and to unconditionally withdraw its military forces from the country Lula has also proposed the creation of what he's calling a piece Club which is made of states that he refers as states that have nothing to do with the war so stay such as China India Brazil of course and his ideas to get them together to encourage
peace talks between those who are directly involved in the conflict ultimately I'd say the produce tents.
Those this war is consistent with the principle of peaceful resolution of conflict which has long guided Brazil's foreign policy regardless of the political ideology of who is in government and I believe that despite they use a parent and to some extent a understandable desire for Brazil to take sides then you government it's very unlikely to follow an automatic alignment with the you position and in fact
Lula has already declined to sell the vehicles and I'm an issuance to Ukraine following a request by German Chancellor during his visit to Brazil in January but instead they you my find in Brazil and actor that is eager to participate in future efforts to find a political solution to the war when conditions allow which does not seem to be the case yet but I think it's very important that
regular dialogue and cooperation channels between the two actors continue to take place to ensure that these different views with regards to Ukraine does not have a negative impact on other areas where Brazil when you do agree on and I think that a good start would be to carry out a new edition of the you Brazil Summit which was held for the last time in 2014 so I think it is about time that we create a space to build a new.
Positive agenda for the bilateral relations between Brazil and the you I think it's important that we emphasize that this rebuild indeed it has to happen around the positive agenda something that allows us to move forward.
I think in a concluding and sort of thematic section I would like Target the following issues so again you're being well versed and understanding how the common government sort of comes up with certain policy Solutions how it sees its own role and priorities with the first half of the question let's say I would like for you again to to maybe make a brief introduction for those listeners who again perhaps do not follow on everyday basis the politics.
Describe in one to three points depending how you see it how you see these priorities of the government government what would be the main. Issues the main policy areas that the governor presidency would like to Target in the in the upcoming let's say short to medium term perspective and being sort of an outsider where should we turn our attention to perhaps
ending or rephrasing it a what's more challenging problem now the society that the definitely the government wants to pay attention to so I also hope that for all of us your reply will give us a bit of an indication of the internal processes in the country and what really are those Stand Out issues that we should pay attention to that's a difficult question because I think there are the new government has a lot of desire to do many things on many fronts
but I would highlight their of environment and climate change I think it's been very clear from 'lula's speech even before he took office so he went for instance to cop 27 in Egypt last year and ever since he took office he has made clear that tackling deforestation and putting forward more sustainable policies will be in the extreme priority for his administration and promising Lee we have already started to see some results we saw
a somewhat successful operation to expel thousands and thousands of illegal gold miners in the Yanomami indigenous lands in the Amazon deforestation numbers for the Amazon have also started to drop quite significantly.
So I think this shows that there is a significant commitment internally and also externally I'm sure Brazil will play a significant role Brazil has already pleaded to host cop 30 which will be a very important copper with since it's going to Mark 10 years since the Paris agreement and of course Brazil will be hosting the G20. And I think it will use it for the men's one of its domestic and Global priorities which is the issue of inequality and social distribution Lula.
Tends to put the issue of fighting poverty and inequality is at the core of all its major domestic. An international appearance so making sure that we have better Global governance in structure to make sure that we don't have countries which cannot afford to fight climate change for instance because the level of debt is so much so I'd say.
Inequality on the one hand and Environmental Protection on the other hand other things to watch and a third one if I had to say is the issue of democracy as you know Brazil like other countries such as the US has passed the phase a dark phase of its history with attempts to withdrawn and democratically.
Elected leader which of course failed thankfully and thanks to our institutions that have suffered but continue to operate so I think there will be a strong desire to look out for partners like that you like the United States to ensure that we can promote and democracy and Tackle hate speech throughout the world so I will immediately Jumpin and and researching on the second part of the question so thank you again for explaining and how should we try to approach understand Brazil that
from the from this inside from the perspective of society and priorities for the government.
The second question again targets or finalizes some sums up our today's discussion on Brazil you relations but let's make it a bit more interesting so we indeed say it was very positive to focus on the positive agenda and rebuilt around positive issues but if it's possible for you to say in terms of building these relations what traps what challenges should be avoided so what what they you should not do when it approaches Brazil I think sometimes it's very important to to actually emphasize
the mistakes to find your own limitations to understand actually what is your starting point and which shouldn't you do and then of course moving to more positive agenda but maybe sort of two rounded up a bit on it so if you have any advice being to ask for sort of coming and now and then from Brazil to to Europe to Belgium to Brussels would be very interesting and to hear it I think the first thing the main thing in my view is to seek to understand what
Brazil is coming from and we talked a little bit about the issue of Ukraine which is naturally a very sensitive issue for Europe it's a war which is happening and it's neighborhood.
But it's important to look at also from the perspective of Brazil front and outside of Wi-Fi things that we should be talking about this as I said we might not have the moment yet but I think both sides agree that this is necessary and it will come a time in which people will have to sit down and talk and I agree the terms of the Peace So I think creating these understanding listening to each other and preventing that this agenda that might not be a positive one contaminates other agenda
it's one thing and is applied understanding applied to other issues as well think of the environment. The u.s. past regulation to stop importing products which are linked to deforestation which everyone celebrated because of course it's a positive measure but if you look up the position produced government we had for instance recently produced ambassador to the you calling this legislation unilateral punitive and discriminatory.
And at first you'll be like but why is he saying that and I think we need to look deeper into aspects such as. Fears of for instance this legislation being instrumentalize for protection is reasons but also pressured internal pressures we have a very strong and politically organized agribusiness sectors which puts pressure on the government so I see that.
Both sides have good Arguments for instance in an issue like that but we will only move forward if we try to talk as a first step and to cooperate in this case I see there's huge potential for cooperation for the you to support Brazil for instance in implementing its own National policies to tackle deforestation not only buying contributing to the Amazon by Brazil has a quite robust plan to reduce deforestation in the Amazon which we call in Portuguese peseta
we have a low-carbon agriculture program the D you could support so.
I am being repetitive but I do think seeking to understand and make sure it making sure that we have the mechanism to continue the dialogue only respectable basis I'm sure and I'm quite confident there is a lot of people who would love to hear and read more on how you comment your expertise your analysis could you and the and perhaps give our listeners and education where they should check out if they want to to have an in-depth.
Analysis of the ongoing sort of processes in Brazil its proper position is that the website or plataforma sequel maybe social media anything that you feel could be useful relevant to share with our listeners so they can follow and get a bit of an in-depth understanding of Brazil.
Sure well first I would advise you to go to a website but the former support dot-org it's available both in Portuguese in English but we also very active on social media so Twitter LinkedIn Facebook Instagram everything this year we have a very busy plate we have coming up the you see like a summit in Brussels Brazil is now at the presidency of makisu in December
we're going to be at the presidency of the G20 so we had support will be producing analysis on all those issues so if you're interested in following policy the role of Brazil in the world south-south cooperation all things related to foreign policy do check it out.
I do encourage everyone to check it out and few could completely words for me as well so first of all I think extremely thankful to our colleagues at Fab so help us prepare this excellent conversation so we're gonna heal rehab Asana last but not least Tai knowledge you who was extremely important person behind the scenes to make our Focus today is a possibility.
I would also like to mention that if you would like to have that in-depth view on 'lula's new government and prospects for Brazilian foreign policy please go ahead and read the policy brief that wouldn't then they will be published on the topic which which mayara is one and spend a considerable amount of time I have expertise to explain these intricacies.
And of course just to end on a note again I encourage you to check other podcasts on our website there's tons of interesting discussions with very important and interesting individuals and experts and once again I'm a recurring issue policy analyst international relations thank you very much and I hope to. Music.