This episode was brought to you by our Patreon supporters. Long-time supporters like Greg and Pearl Morgan, Amy Swan, Greg Bench, Joel Robertson, and Dan George. And new patrons like Kate Lamb, Andrette, and Carl Davis. Make this podcast possible. Stick around for an extended shout out at the end. Now on to the episode. Welcome to another episode of Father and Son Watch Horror Movies.
I am your co-host, the Father, a.k.a. Pastor Matt. And I am joined, as always, by my trusty sidekick, Jackson the Sun. And as we're recording, it's the day after Thanksgiving. And what a better way to continue riding that wave of thankfulness and good cheer than by talking about the... This depressing nihilistic tragedy. Oh, well, folks, we are a spoiler podcast. We do spoil the movies that we discuss. So you are forewarned. And.
What we're doing on this episode is covering the 10th anniversary. Here's what I was thinking. It is the holiday season. Holidays about family, right? Right. Well, this is a family film. It is. By the vaguest definition, a family film. Okay, I'll take it. Hereditary is also a family film. Yes, absolutely. So... What we're covering is Sinister, the 10th anniversary of Sinister from 2012. And the IMDb synopsis reads, a controversial true crime writer.
finds a box of Super 8 home movies in his new home, revealing that the murder case he is currently researching could be the work of an unknown serial killer whose legacy dates back to the 1960s. Um... Okay, that kind of omits a few things like he intentionally moved into a murder house. Right. And doesn't tell his family about it.
Yeah. So that's, you know, omitting a few things there. But but so is he, to be fair. Yeah. Yeah. Hawk's character is also omitting that. Yes. So. All righty. When did you first see Sinister?
I don't know. It's been a few years. I remember, you know, watching it, not thinking much of it originally, and then, you know, hearing about this reappraisal of it later on, especially with Derrickson's work in recent... years um it's like oh did you know that the director of of doctor strange actually made this this horror film in 2012 and it's it's pretty good it's kind of elevated and i was like oh okay so you know re-watching it for this episode i was
pleasantly surprised in some aspects but i also think that uh there are some some aspects of the film that could have been improved maybe some missed potential which i'm excited to talk about but Still a really great viewing experience, and I can definitely see why Scott Derrickson has...
you know, made his way into a lot of people's favorite horror directors just by merit of the two big ones. Yeah, this and Black Phone. We won't discuss Deliver Us From Evil, but we don't need to talk about that one. Yeah, I saw this in the theater and the weekend it dropped. And I remember being genuinely creeped out by it. And so I'm looking forward to discuss this. So let's jump in.
So the plot, as we've discussed, you know, Ethan Hawke plays a true crime writer, apparently a failed novelist who turned into a true crime writer. And he's written one apparently number one New York Times bestseller, Kentucky Blood. And a couple of those books haven't been as well. So he's. investigating a crime where a family was hung together, but one of the family members disappeared.
The little girl, right, has disappeared. Yeah. And so he moves his family, as we said, unwittingly, they don't know this, into the same house to investigate. And he finds... You know, which we can talk about that. This is this is something I want to talk about. He finds a bunch of Super 8 film in the attic depicting these crimes. He does not turn them over to the law enforcement.
Right. He doesn't seem to wonder where they came from. Yeah. Because I worked as a prosecutor for a year and I've also done criminal defense work. Not a lot of it, but I've done some. When a family is hung in their backyard, there's not a single thing in that house that's not gone over by the police. Right. So how did it get there?
Well, I think the implication – and he does ponder it a little. A little. Especially after – I think I would have been pondering it a lot. Right. So he goes through the box originally and then comes back and finds that there's another tape in it. And he's like, so you came back. And then –
Instead of thinking that's the time to move out when the killer, the suspected serial killer, has come back to add another tape to his attic, that's not when you move out. You move out later. But yeah, so it is... It is a little odd. I think it's implied that it's supernatural, right? Oh, yeah, it's more than implied, right? Because when he, we're a spoiler podcast, when he moves back to his old house, the Super 8s are there after he burned them.
Right. So I guess the implication is that Bagul has either possessed the young child to put the Super 8 tapes up there or has done it himself through whatever means. Well, he destroyed them, so he had to revive them. Right. that's the one thing I remember thinking about this film when I first saw it and re-watching it just finished re-watching it 20 minutes ago you know
He and he Ethan Hawke's character, you know, he's got a adversarial relationship with a sheriff who we'll talk about in a minute because I the actor playing the sheriff, I know or knew he passed away, unfortunately. But. He has this, and he calls him so lovingly, Deputy So-and-so. Right. He doesn't have a real name in the credits, just Deputy. Wow. I don't think they ever really reveal his name. Wow.
Yeah. So Deputy So-and-so, who has a degree in criminology, he knows some stuff. He's not a dummy. He's kind of a fanboy. He never reveals that he has these films to him that I remember. Well, you know, it's one of those things where Ethan Hawke's character, Allison, this crime writer...
has kind of a disdain for police, not only because he thinks that they made the wrong call in the Kentucky blood case, which he wrote about in his book. He also thinks that, you know, since that book has come out... and it kind of gave the Kentucky...
blood police department uh a bad name that cops have been treating him poorly ever since then because you know it's like he doesn't have respect for the profession so it's it's kind of a give and take type thing where he doesn't like them because he doesn't he doesn't like their methodology
He thinks he's more thorough than they are, and they don't like him because he wrote poorly about them in Kentucky Blood. But you know what? Even as a prosecutor, I had a few police officers that didn't like me, but if I found – you know, evidence that a serial killer is crawling up into my attic and storing, you know, evidence.
I think I'd get over it. Right. Well, it's his hubris, right? I mean, he wants to have this book that breaks this story, and he feels like if he gives it to the cops... you know what i mean he's not going to have that exclusive or that they're going to do it wrong you know or they're not going to let him have this evidence anymore and he really is chasing that he is an interesting character i think he's very different than his character in the black phone um still still not
He's not, I would say, a good guy, but he's much different. Well, he's complicated, right? Because he does appear to be a caring husband and father. Yeah, to an extent. To an extent. Yeah. Yeah, he wants... In the short term, what's good for is his kids. And he justifies his pursuit of this story as, I'll be able to provide for my family more. We'll be able to live the rest of our lives happily.
Oh, yeah, he's talking about a movie deal because he thinks he's uncovered. What eventually he kind of hints at is not just – not so much a serial killer but maybe a cult. Yeah, yeah. So he's – He says that it's all for the good of the case and that these people's stories need to be told and that his family, you know, deserves to...
Profit off this, but what he really wants is the attention, the fame. He watches news clips of him being interviewed on live TV after Kentucky Blood, and he misses that. He misses the limelight being on him. So he thinks that this case... could put him back into the spotlight. You know, he says several times that as a writer, he couldn't bring himself to write textbooks. You know what I mean? There's money in that.
But he wants not only the creative freedom of being an author of these crime novels, but he also wants the attention and the limelight. So he is a kind of a... complicated character with what he tells other people and who he actually is you know we see he's a totally different person with deputy deputy so-and-so than he is with the sheriff than he is with his wife than he is with his kids um so he wears a lot of masks ironically enough in reference to the black phone
his character is constantly a different person to whoever he's encountering based on what he wants so he's manipulating Deputy So and So he's manipulating his wife and his kids and it's just really interesting because he's not so evil that we want him to die but he's also one of those characters where we're like what are you doing dude you know what i mean it's like i understand where he's coming from uh but you know it's he really needs that angel on his shoulder
Yeah. Well, or just, you know, someone with some sanity, you know, I mean, and deputy so-and-so does tell him. He was like, you know, I wouldn't spend a night in this house, you know. But yeah, he's just. That just leads us – that to me – and I don't know what you do with that. Maybe you don't have a movie. If he does, just turn it over. And yeah, they do set it up to where – yeah, he's hesitant.
to really have any interaction with the police unless they can help him in some way. Right, right. Thus, you know, the reason for their friendship with Deputy so-and-so. You know, that's always bothered me a little bit, but what did you think about the screenplay overall? Well, I think the screenplay has a great setup. I think that's its strongest thing. It's intriguing, right? The first two acts were like, what is going on?
Even if we've seen it already, you may not remember exactly how it goes. So it's incredibly intriguing. It has a great setup.
I think honestly, just, you know, from the first two acts, it has even more potential than something like the black phone does, where it's like, you have really have no idea where this is going. But Unfortunately, I think for the screenplay, and perhaps it was a budget thing, perhaps it was, you know, just that the modern horror trends were pointing this way with like Insidious and The Conjuring.
I find that it doesn't deliver fully on its potential. I think that the payoff of the things it's setting up aren't as good as the setup is. like we said, this is a spoiler podcast, the eventual reveal of Bagul and how he functions and how he has been functioning for supposedly thousands of years.
I don't think is as interesting as the setup would imply. I think it's overly complicated, and I don't think it's that interesting. I don't think it's that scary. I think the ideas that it suggests are scarier than what we actually see on screen. Which is unfortunate. But before I get into that, I just want to say I do love the writing of Ellison as a character that's Ethan Hawke. I love the setup of, you know, this intrigue of what is going on because...
The idea that he's seeing this footage not through something more contemporary like a mini VHS or whatever, that he's seeing it on Super 8. Right. Super 8 film is just scary inherently. I feel like. And I read that Derrickson actually shot that footage on Super 8. That's not distorted. Yeah, you can tell. It doesn't look like a digital. Oftentimes, whenever I see that, like trying to make something digital look like it was shot on film.
i'm not so sure how effective that is because you can you can tell it's like a plug-in the noise plug-in on top of it but you can tell that just the richness of the film but also Yeah, Super 8 is just scary. Even a birthday party, even before the scary parts of the Super 8 films are revealed, it is eerie just by the nature of the film quality. I remember being scared by the 8mm zombie movie.
within a movie in 2011 super eight the jj abrams movie yep you remember i was terrified not of the giant alien and super eight Not at the peril. I was scared of the amateur Super 8 zombie film that the kids are filming. Oh, trust me. I took you to see that and I heard about it from your mother for many days. You were eight years old and you were... freaked out and you had a nightmare.
It's gritty, right? Just Super 8's nature is that it's gritty and it's so real. You know what I mean? It feels like the actual scene, the actual light from the scene just being captured. It's just really weird. It's like a snapshot. shot in time. And when you are recording these heinous events happening, these really disgusting murders who, by the way, we later find out are committed by children.
who are the ones holding the camera right it's not there's not a killer there are killers there's the if if there's a few people out there who haven't seen that i'd never understand why people listen to spoiler podcasts of movies they haven't seen you know but they do it and And so, I mean- I'm guilty of it. Are you guilty of it? Okay. The other day, I literally, you asked me how my Thanksgiving was before we started recording. I've been sick. And so-
I went to my in-laws for about an hour, hour and a half, and I came home and laid down, and I was looking, had football on in the background and mute, and I was looking for a podcast, and I saw, oh, how did this get made covered rhinestone? Well, I haven't seen rhinestone in 30 years. So there I go. I go to YouTube and watch rhinestone before I listen to the podcast. And and so and by the way, I'm not recommending that rhinestone is a horrible movie, but.
Thus it being on how did this get made. Right. Thus it's on how did this get made. Sometimes they have awesome movies on there like Cobra. But. Yeah, if you haven't seen this. So, OK, so we find out and we have Deputy So-and-so puts Ethan Hawke's character in touch with a professor. who specializes, he's a criminology professor and his specialty is occult crimes, right?
And he identifies the symbols and so forth of all the images he sends him as belonging to an ancient pagan deity called Bagul. Yeah. Who the kids just call, I think, Mr. Boogie.
Mr. Boogie, yeah, which is – those drawings of Mr. Boogie are just terrifying. This idea that they're like, oh, there's nothing wrong with this guy. He's fun and sherry. And then we actually see Bagul. Yeah, and so he's a pagan deity who – If people are exposed to his symbols, his images, so forth, they're open to being possessed by him, especially children are especially vulnerable.
And so we find out through the extended cut, I love that, when he finds the Super 8 in his... in his old house they're much better that way aren't they yes the extended cuts are that uh bagua has been possessing children who are murdering their own families right in pretty horrific ways Yeah, which is I, you know, I'm trying to put myself back in the headspace of when I first saw it, because knowing that going in, the reveal doesn't hit you nearly as hard. And I think the execution of the.
child acting is a little you know i i love like i said i love the setup but that eventual reveal of them like doing the little They're like putting their finger over their mouth in the film. I just, that doesn't really work for me. The kids with the mascara on their face doesn't really scare me that much. And honestly, neither does Bagul. Well, Bagul does kind of creep me out. I don't disagree with you to an extent. Now, there is that one scene.
The projector keeps flipping on at like 3.30 in the morning, which is kind of a tip of the hat to Amityville Horror, I think. Yeah. And to Seinfeld. I was watching a Seinfeld episode the other day where Elaine has that dream where –
All her friends are in the bed with her, and then she wakes up to her neighbor's alarm at 3.30. Yeah, I'd forgotten about that one. So the one scene where the spirits of the kids... are kind of running around the house behind ethan hawk that didn't that that that did strike me as kind of goofy i didn't i didn't really care for that but it forecasts the black phone right with the dead kids yeah corporeal but it's
But that's the only scene that didn't work for me. Other than that, I found it really creepy. And the Super 8 scenes are what this movie is really known for, right? Yeah. And they are creepy. I mean, whether it's the hanging or the lawnmower or the pool or the car on fire, that stuff is creepy to me.
Yeah. What's your favorite? Mine would have to be the pool. That idea of just slowly drowning taped to that thing is terrifying. Well, I think it'd be more horrific to be burned alive. However, that being said, the pool scene is shot really well, which I have some trivia on that. Those were, you know, they had all kinds of problems pulling that off. I'd imagine. Without actually killing the actor. Yes. The actor who played Bagul had to wear weights.
uh around his shoes to keep him at the bottom of the pool and he had to be down there and hold his breath for like a you know for minutes at a time so it was it was very difficult but the hanging scene which is creepy and has played many times the hanging scene
The first stunt coordinator was fired because when they tried it, and those were all stunt people. None of them were, they weren't children up there. They were all stunt people. Right. But they were actually being hung. He didn't do the rig right.
And so they were actually like struggling for breath and, and, and being choked out. And so Scott Derrickson fired the first stunt coordinator for screwing that up. Yeah. Yeah. Probably wise, but no, I think they're all creepy. No, I agree. The pool scene.
when they just start slowly pulling one family member after another into the water is really creepy. Yeah, that is creepy. Yeah, and, you know, it's excellent sound design, too. I think that adds to it. Those whole scenes where... where uh you know even when first ethan hawk puts that reel onto the projector and it's just very like quiet the house is too quiet and then we have nothing but
the sound of the film going through the projector. It's just that. And that's hard to pull off, right? It is, yeah. Especially... And one of my complaints with the movie is, frankly, that the jump scares are a little... I think they're a little contrived. But I think the restraint shown in the Super 8 scenes is really fantastic. When we see a scary thing happening, except for the lawnmower thing, which I think works.
With the pool scene, for instance, or the car scene, when we see the scary stuff happening, it's eerily silent, and all we can hear is Ethan Hawke shifting uncomfortably in his chair. That's all we hear, that and the projector.
So that just really, really – And occasionally his ice from his whiskey, yeah. Yeah. Because he's drinking heavily at this point. Because that puts you in his shoes and allows that shiver to go down your spine. You know what I mean? If there was in that scene where these pulling people into the –
pool if when dad goes splat into the pool and it went burn you know what i mean or when we see bagul like standing at the bottom of the deep end if it went done you know what i mean it would have really undersold the the scare um i mean just just think about the scariest stuff in movies. Think about the Shining Blood elevator.
You know, it's like that silence is what sells it because we have nowhere to run. There's nothing to hide from whenever there's a jump scare with a loud noise. And we talked about smile on our last bonus episode, not fully, just we briefly discussed it. Right.
I loved that movie, but I think the jump scares were kind of undersold by the loud sound because then we can go, oh, I was just scared by the sound. It wasn't the actual disturbing content that scared me. We have that to laugh about. But when you don't give the audience... that they have nowhere to run you know their eyes can't go anywhere in the frame that is
genius filmmaking i think that's that's that's yeah i i i think i like this movie a lot more than you and i think i like the screenplay a lot more than you and and derrickson tweaked a number of things sure and i think he rightly he so This was written by Robert Cargill, who's a famous – he's written a lot of horror stuff. And his original in the script – his original description of Bagul was like a Willy Wonka.
Like Johnny Depp from the Willy Wonka remake. Yeah, don't like that. Yeah. And so Derrickson threw that out. It's like, no, that's goofy. And they came up with the Bagul mask and so forth, which I think works. I. I'm not the biggest fan of Bagul. I think he kind of looks like a member of Slipknot. He does. He does. Let's think about... Okay, so, I mean...
The whole idea of a long line of families— To be fair to Scott Derrickson, he was raised in a pretty strict Christian home, so he may not know who Slipknot was. But anyway, go ahead. Right, right, right. I mean, he's had to have heard Psychosocial on college radio or whatever, but the idea—
of this long line of families, you know, finding images of the murders and becoming infected by a bagul until their child kills them and poses for the Super 8 camera with the lips over it. You know, that's an interesting idea. I don't think it delivers fully on the intrigue that the first two acts. established i'm just not yeah i'm not a huge fan of the look of bagul like i said it looks like a member of slipknot he's supposed to be an ancient pagan god right
It's just, and ending with the final jump scare of him leaning into the side of the camera like he already had 15 minutes earlier, I think it just devalues him as a villain. He's not... Like if he had been less of a tangible humanoid and maybe more like cosmic or Lovecraftian in nature. That's hard to pull off though, to be fair. I mean, there's a reason why even Lovecraft was like...
He wouldn't describe the creature like you read Lovecraft. He's like, it cannot be described. It's so hideous. And he was doing that on purpose. Right. But let's let's think about like. You know, if we had just seen bits and pieces of Bagul, like where he's most effective, he's in the shadows, he's in the pool, you know what I mean? When we have him do those two jump scares where he does the same exact thing, by the way, I'm not entirely sure it's not the same shot, the same ass.
that just flipped of him leaning into the side of the camera and scaring us. It just really doesn't work for me when we actually see him in the flesh, you know, holding the little girl at the end, leaning in for a jump scare. I think that if he had been more implied, like we had seen bits and pieces of him, like Pazuzu. know what i mean if he had been more that kind of right of villain
And, you know, if the ghost children hadn't been covered in mascara, I just don't I don't get that. I think if more attention had been paid to exploring the ideas rather than its cheap jump scare potential, it's a high concept to a certain extent until that. concept is neutered i think for jump scares i will agree with you on the second one the first one i do think is it was effective i saw this in the theater and people jumped sure people jumped it's a jump scare
That means it worked, right? It's a loud noise accompanied with him leaning in from the side, but he does it twice in 10 minutes, and I just don't think it's well set up. What is the setup for that jump scare? You know what I mean? It's not like, ooh, you know, something.
creepy is happening over here and then oh here he comes it's more like loud noise and he's in the frame you know what i mean it's maybe not as offensive as like annabelle uh but i i just think that it's devalued a little it's better than the cat scare um but It is better than the cat scare. It's better than the rock against the window scare. But I just think it's cheapened. And I'm not placing blame on Cargill or Derrickson. I think that's just the style. They had this high concept.
idea but they also had to deliver this to a wide audience so they had to put in those tangible jump scares I just wish honestly that this had been it had been a little bit more psychological rather than than what we get i mean i you know you talked about that slow motion high frame rate scene where the kids ghost kids are running around and oh ethan hawk almost sees him but then he turns his head the wrong way you know that kind of thing yeah that i that i don't like but i
I agree with you. They didn't need the second jump scare necessarily. They were probably thinking they won't expect it again after we did it once. It's the carry thing. I get it. I just don't think that it's like do something different with the jump. same jump scare he leans in from the side of the camera it happens twice i just don't understand yeah yeah well i like this more than you did now we are all about science here
And in 2020, Ford's Magazine conducted a study, Science of Scare Project, where the heart rate of the viewers were monitored while they watched a number of horror films. Out of 35 films. This movie won, having the highest average heart rate at 86, spiking at 131 BPM. thus has often been deemed the scariest movie ever made. Okay. That's science, buddy. That's science.
That is science, yes. That reminds me of those early paranormal activity promotional things where we have the night vision of the people in the theater spilling their popcorn on themselves. Well, but to be fair, I also saw paranormal theater, paranormal activity in the theater and people were freaking out. True. Not to bash paranormal activity. I think that first one was inventive. But that idea of the more you are scared, the more your heart rate spikes or the more nervous you are is how...
you measure a good movie or how scary it is. I'm not so sure that's, that's true. I mean, think about the scariest stories, you know, the scariest urban legends. It's not about the big boo. You know what I mean? That might be the case with. meet i told you walk or you know the head dropping down the thing but but the things that get us the most are the ones where we we think about them later and we're trying to fall asleep at night and we can't you know stop because the concept is so creepy
That's why I referenced Lovecraft earlier, because he's not about the tangible evil. It's more about the concepts that keep you up at night, the things that make you go like... And this movie touches on that a little bit, the nihilism, right? It's also scary because if your kids can kill you, who can you trust if you can't trust your own children? if some evil can corrupt them and cause them to do these heinous acts. And it reminds...
brings to mind real life stories of the slender man thing of these children being corrupted by this idea of slender man and deciding to do this, this horrible thing. Thankfully in that case, this is a much better movie than the slender man movie. Well, not, not, not. the flunderman movie i'm talking about the real life uh yeah yeah yeah well yeah but but i i like this a lot more than you i i think that i think it does pay off even though
You know, it's no shock when the deputy calls and says, you've sped up the timeline. Right. We know as soon as we see the daughter staring at, you know. What was her name? Sarah or whatever, you know, the missing daughter. And she's been.
you know somehow the parents have missed that she's painting hangings on her wall yeah i don't know how yeah and and and when ethan hawk comes in you know originally she's already started painting it's already pretty scary there's like rain and like children and
like a crying unicorn. And he's just like, Oh, it must be, you know, the move that's making her so depressed, the six year old so depressed. And it's like, okay, maybe we should look into that. Yeah. That's, that's even if there's nothing supernatural going on, that's when you. call a child psychologist but anyway exactly yeah yeah but and your and your son is having night terrors and possibly hurting himself in the night like this is when you need family counseling i feel like
Yeah, it's, but I still think that, I think it works. I think it, I like the payoff, even if it's a little predictable. I do like how they handled Derrickson, you know, with the ending, not, not. the very last minute where, you know, he, Bagul carries off the little girl into the, into the frame. I love how they don't show the girl killing the family. They show her doing the drawing of the killing. She's just done.
Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is, no, that is, that is, I wonder if that would also come down to, to a rating thing. I think if we have a little kid actually chopping off even Hawk's head, it could be a little. Well, according to the trivia, Derrickson was actually hoping for a PG-13. Yeah, I don't think he was ever going to get that with the children in peril thing. That's why he got an R. Yeah, it was content. But there's hardly any profanity. There's no nudity. There's very little gore. Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it comes down to the children in peril and maybe Ethan Hawke had one too many glasses of whiskey. But can you blame him, really? And he smoked a cigarette, which we know how verboten that is.
Well, all right. So we disagree on that. You apparently just don't think the third act paid off based on the first two. Is that what you're saying? Not as much. You know, I think it's still effective as a... um like if it was uh insidious three you know that kind of thing i'd be like oh it's a pretty pretty solid final act it it was grim and i'll get into that later i've got a pros and cons list uh you know to justify my my rating later but
Yeah, I will say I just think that the setup was better than the payoff. I think that the setup was verging on greatness, whereas the payoff was just good. Okay. Well, okay. Let's talk about Mr. Derrickson. Are you a fan? I am a fan. Yes, I am a fan of Derrickson. You know, I... I didn't even realize when we went to go see the black phone, I didn't even realize that he was the doctor strange that he had done Marvel. Right. But, and, and you can't really, I mean,
you can't really even see that in the black phone. It still feels like he's this, you know, very in touch with horror audiences, low budget horror audiences. So I'm glad to see that the big time didn't change him, but. Yeah, I am a fan of him. I like his hallmarks, which I was wondering what you think his hallmarks are as a director. For me, I think it would be like the grungy film look, dysfunctional family, and adults underestimating children.
And Ghost Kids, I guess. Yeah, I like what he did with Doctor Strange. I also like The Exorcism of Emily Rose. Yeah, definitely. Deliverance from Evil is the only one I remember not loving. It was fine, from what I remember. Yeah, I don't remember much about it. I think that I watched... that with Sinister around the same time. So that might, that, you know, I don't know when that would be, but I remember back then.
Not thinking that they were that much different in quality. Of course, now re-washing Sinister, I realize that it's probably a little bit more interesting. But I think that, I mean, you touched on the use of Super 8 and so forth. I think now it's a little dark, and I don't just mean dark in tone. It's dimly lit. I know what you mean. Yeah, it's hard to see. I mean, you pretty much have to watch this in the pitch black for a lot of the scenes of Ethan Hawke walking around the house.
Yeah. And so I have that against it. But other than that, I think he did a good job. I think it's well made. Yeah, I think it's competently made. Like I said, I think that with the trends that it had to follow to reach a wide audience, and I understand this is relatively successful. I mean, it got a sequel. Yep. Which was not received as well. If I remember correctly, I'll double check. I mean, this had a budget of only $3 million. Yeah. And I'm sure most of that went to the cast. Yeah.
And it's just really that one setting for most of the films. They were very efficient with what they had. We don't see a whole lot. There's not a lot of big effect shots or anything.
Like I said, those first two acts set up terror in the same way an urban legend does. Like, I love that Skype call with, like you said, the criminologist, this occult expert. Vincent Dionfrio, Gomer Pyle from... metal jacket right and it which is fantastic i love those scenes um just you know talking or you know the scene with deputy so-and-so uh when they're in the living room talking and and the cracks start to show a little bit with ethan hawk you know this cool
demeanor he's just yeah displayed to the deputy starts to crack a little bit as even he can't keep back this this thing that he's witnessed this These ghosts and these supernatural occurrences. But yeah, I think that the scenes where people are just talking about these ideas and speculating are so much more interesting than when we actually have ghost children.
and Bagul or the long... See, I would disagree there. But I hear what you're saying. Now, yeah, the ghost children, not so much. But Bagul, I do think is creepy. But, yeah, I think we both... agree however because it sounds like we're going to move into the cast we both agree that derrickson is a good director it doesn't mean everything he touches is going to turn to gold i mean spielberg made hook right right um but you know it's but like we both agree that he's a good director.
He's incredibly talented, especially, I think, with adapting scripts, as we said. I mean, he worked on this script with Cargill. He worked with Cargill to adapt The Black Phone as well. So he definitely knows what can be done with his... budget uh and what will be effective i mean i think that cargill when he wrote sinister was thinking more budget wise like what if we have him be willy wonka you know that kind of thing it's like he was like okay
we can do this with the budget. This will be more effective. He's good at that. I think with... This and with the black phone and with the exorcism of Emily Rose, he knows how to use limited locations and really utilize the space and the characters to their fullest extent.
And yeah, so he's definitely a very talented director. I was nervous, you know, obviously, looking back on it, I'm nervous, but now relieved that he wasn't just one of those talented directors that showed promise and then was... given the keys to the kingdom with a big budget Hollywood thing, and then just kind of was chewed up by the system.
I'm relieved that that didn't happen to him, that he's still – both him and Ethan Hawke are still doing horror movies and good ones too. Yeah, and to Ethan Hawke's credit, so we can go ahead and move into the cast. I think Robert Cargill did a good job with the script. think we both agree the dialogue's not bad i yeah i think the dialogue for the most part is fantastic i i have a few problems with uh with tracy his wife
I think that she's a little, maybe a little underwritten, except in that argument scene. I think that argument scene is really natural. Yeah. But I just, I'm just not a big fan of Juliette Rylance in this movie. I don't think to any fault of her own. She did what she... but she could with the material, but, um, I don't know her from that much. I was looking at, I don't either. I was looking at her IMDB page and I was trying to see if I've seen any of this.
Other than Sinister, I don't think I've seen anything else she's been in. But now I'll agree with you there. She's a little underwritten. I think she's a good actress. And she's not given a lot to work with. But this is really Ethan Hawke's film. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is. And I think he does a good job. Even Roger Ebert, which gave this movie, he gave this movie a positive review. Folks always say he hated horror. He gave this three out of four stars.
And he praised Ethan Hawke's performance. Yeah. I mean, I'm so – I love Ethan Hawke. He was this child star. uh that that went on to he's he's just got this real love of movies he's not just doing it as a job you know obviously this was a low wasn't he in explorers which is a movie i when you were when you were little you liked i love explorers i know that joe dante was...
pretty much kicked in the balls with that movie they really screwed him on that yep um and you know they wouldn't let him do any reshoots or edit or anything else they just summarily dismissed him from the and the new studio's head was not a thing out of mr dante's and when he was fired from that gremlins had not yet come out
So I'm pretty sure that Joe Dante, when Gremlins came out, was a huge, massive success. Joe Dante may or may not have allegedly driven around the studio with his middle fingers up. But anyway. Nah, nah, boo, boo. No, I love Ethan Hawke, and I think he's great in this. Yeah, and I mean I've seen interviews of him, and the way he talks about movies is just like he's so enthusiastic about it. And obviously this is a low-budget movie, limited location.
limitations, limited cast, but he still gives 100% in this movie. And yeah, he's just fantastic. I agree with you. He gave an interview recently. I think I've talked about it with you. He was asked about doing horror movies. It's like you've done Dead Poets Society and you've done Broadway and you've done –
why would you do the black phone and sinister? And he goes, cause I like horror movies. He looks, I like all kinds of movies. I like action movies. I like comedies. He said, I want to do all of them. Yeah. Good for him. Yeah.
Yeah, good for him. And he's fantastic in most everything I've seen. And it's also, you know, it would have been so easy. You read, like... um the the plot summary and you're like okay and you watch the trailer which by the way you know 2012 horror trailers i'm so glad we moved away from that maybe not we maybe we honestly haven't now that i'm thinking about it horror trailers are so often terrible
Because they don't communicate the mood of the movie. They communicate the mood of a trailer. But... Yeah, it would have been so easy for him to be like, okay, I'm a main character in this jump scare movie. I'm just going to phone it in. I'm Ethan Hawke. You know what I mean? And I'm in Sinister, this $3 million movie.
But he gives his all in this. And I'm so glad that obviously he's got to have a level of respect for Derrickson as a director to trust the process and come back all these years later. um i i think that you know uh sinister being reappraised definitely helped with that um but he could see the potential in it and he gives his all i mean his
Like we said, he feels very natural in the movie. He feels real. We can understand his motivations. We may not support him fully, but we understand who he is as a person, and he feels like just that, a person. He does. It's a fully-fledged character.
yeah a complicated character but a fully fledged character and it's it's it's not it's it's not two-dimensional his this is a three-dimensional character and he brings it to life well yeah um you know and even in we talked about when we talked about the black phone on a bonus episode we talked about how good he was in it i mean he just yeah he brings it so the sheriff yeah
Not the deputy, not deputy so-and-so, but the sheriff, the older gentleman. Fred Dalton Thompson. Anybody who's watched any movies from the late 80s, early 90s will recognize him. Yeah. He was a Watergate lawyer. He worked for the House Judiciary Committee. Then he was a lawyer in private practice and he did some entertainment law and people kept talking about.
What a great presence he had. So he moved into acting. He was in No Way Out with Kevin Costner and Gene Hackman. He was in Days of Thunder with Tom Cruise. He was in, if Joel's listening, he was in Die Hard 2, Die Harder. He was the air traffic control. chief yeah and then in 1994 he was elected to the u.s senate wow from tennessee and so he had left uh the senate by this time where he does this role um
And unfortunately, he would die shortly thereafter from cancer. But I knew Fred Dalton Thompson because I worked on Capitol Hill when he was there. My favorite interaction with him was you. probably too young to remember who this is there's a country music artist named laurie morgan i don't even know the name um let's put it this way here's how you would
Appreciate her. Think of the blonde version of Shania Twain. Okay. Does that help you? Yeah. So it was less about the music and more about the image. She was a, she was and is a very attractive woman. Right. And Lori Morgan accompanied Fred Dalton Thompson to a fundraiser one night where I was at. And so he walks in with her and everybody's head is turning because everybody's like.
Senator Thompson's with Lori Morgan, you know, and so she went off to the quote unquote powder room and I was standing there with Senator Thompson, then Senator Thompson with my roommate, Lincoln Hobbs, who was a lobbyist. And we both looked at him as soon as she left and went. Well done, sir. Well done. And he just started laughing. So that's my Fred Thompson story. I just want to drop that. I will humble brag. I don't care. I will name drop. So Fred Thompson.
the sheriff. He's not given much. I'm sure he was just there for a day. Yeah. Don't you think him and Vincent D'Onfrio, the professor, were just there for a day? It seems like it. He has two scenes with Ethan Hawke, one in the day when they first move in and then one when they're moving out. And he's excellent in both. mean he's got a good back and forth with ethan hawk but yeah this this was definitely shot in a day i mean you have all the actors in both those scenes so right
Yeah, it definitely seems like shot in a day, but a fantastic job from him and D'Onofrio. I think that, again, for the whole cast, this could have just been a phone-in, low-budget horror movie. but they all give it their all. I think that they, you know, really read the script and been into it. Because it is, and that's something that I respect most, I think, about actors, is when they recognize a good project when they read it.
You know, it's not just a job for them. Well, and also we need to bring up, I mean, I think the kid actors did fine, but James Ransone as deputy so-and-so. Yeah. Who was also in The Black Phone. Yeah. And so apparently they get along. Also, most people, most horror fans will know him as Eddie from the adult Eddie from It Chapter Two. Yeah. Yeah, he's fantastic in both those things. I was going to say, yeah, the guy, he plays Max, the conspiracy theorist, coke-snorting guy in the black phone.
And he's fantastic in that as well as this, because we get the wrong impression of him, I think, in both movies. And this movie, when we're first introduced to him, you know, he's, you know, like, oh, Mr. Ellison, would you please sign my, my, my. would you please sign Kentucky blood? And he's like, anyway, I can help you. I want to be in the acknowledgements of your next book. Right. But then later we find out that, you know, once he's, he's gotten over his, his star struck.
He starts to put pieces together, and he's not this... dumb hick like ethan hawk originally thinks he is he actually does have something to to add he basically at the end cracks the case i mean he in some ways cracks the case he does yeah with what little he's given by ethan hawk because he's not kept in the loop yeah if deputy so-and-so and the professor could get together they would have figured it all out
Exactly, yeah. And that just shows you, again, the flaws of Ethan Hawke's character. If he had realized that he could crack this case and get his book... uh by bringing these great minds together right and and brainstorming with all three of them But then he wants it all to himself, I think, is the idea. But yeah, it's too late when Deputy So-and-So finally tells him the news. Ethan Hawke has already been drugged.
And with whatever that, that liquid, that green bagu. Yeah. Whatever that is. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what that is. Yeah, because they say earlier on that the poison used to incapacitate them so the children could do the crimes was unidentified. So it's some weird primordial use. Yeah, it looks like radiator fluid is what it looks like, but yeah, you don't really know what it is.
is but yeah i think i think it's it's yeah it's it's begul's uh hot sauce i think is what it is it's just it's too hot they they just uh they pass out i think is is the implication you know Well, anyway, James Ransone, I'm a fan. I don't know. I have no answers for you. But James Ransone, I'm a fan. It Chapter Two, my favorite line in that movie, he utters about the mullet. Yeah. When he's just gotten stabbed, get rid of the bullets, not the eighties anymore or whatever it is. I love that line.
Which is more relevant now than ever. Yes. The mullet have come back. Oh, no, we don't need that. Yeah. Not the ape drape, not the Kentucky waterfall, not the achy, breaky, bad mistakey. We don't need that. But anyway, that's pretty much the cast, small cast, right? But which is what you would expect for a $3 million movie. Right. Small but effective. They all have – there's no nobody character. You know what I mean? Every one of them has a role in the thing, not a lot of extras.
not a lot of fluff characters, but... But yeah, I mean, that just gives every actor enough room to flesh out their character and feel like a real person. You know, you talked about the child actors. They do a good job with what they're given. the rebellious uh son who listens to metal music and is like whatever you know that kind of guy but actually has these night terrors um he's it seems to me like maybe he's covering up he's compensating for you know being
traumatized by these past crime photos night terrors by the way are terrifying i had a buddy who had them yeah and we were at a church event and all of us all of us guys were sleeping in this um high school classroom because we were down in the depths of Appalachia repairing homes for free.
And this one night, like at like two or three o'clock in the morning, hear screaming and all this other kind of stuff. I'm like, what in the world? And the youth minister flips on the light and he was hanging from the ceiling. He had somehow gotten into the ceiling. and that's a it's real and it's terrifying but no i think the kid does a does a good job he's got a heck of a head of hair on him he's uh
It's a shame that his sister takes him out because he was ready to go all metal bassist. He was, for real, yeah. Yeah, I love that when they're moving back into their old house. He's listening to metal. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think... actually played by Claire Foley.
uh does a pretty solid job as the creepy the innocent turned creepy kid um you know like i said i'm not that big a fan of that payoff but um you know see i like the path we won't go back over but i like i said the draw and stuff i liked that i liked i saw where it was going but i liked the way they handled it if that makes sense sure
yeah yeah it subverts your expectations a little with the pacing of it because we get that cool false victory uh where they move away and it seems like you know everything's fine uh and that's that's that's when when the ghoul strikes but yeah i i just uh i i think that it had an admirable first two acts and an okay very watchable third act um but
But yeah, I've got a whole diatribe written about my pros and cons with the movie, how I would do it. Well, let's talk about what other notes do you have, and we'll get to that. Sure.
You know, I think that you touched on that there's a lot of really dark scenes. I think that, you know, him... wandering through the the dark house is it's a little bit of that could have been cut but it is effective you know just hearing the house settle and all these light creaking watching this with headphones on was really effective i think because the sound design is pretty good
Ethan Hawke's performance is great. Look at the film is really gritty. I like that. It's got the perfect look for a low-budget movie, I think. It looks professional, but also gritty. In that house, the black values are really low, like even during the daytime scenes where when he's in his office, it looks like night no matter what time of day it is.
It does. Yeah, it does. But you know what? I don't know how I feel about that. I'm kind of a fan of the kind of Dean Cundey backlit, kind of like Halloween. Yeah. I just think it's, you know, when it's that much darkness, I don't know. It just it kind of annoys me, to be honest. Yeah, I just I do like the look of the daytime scenes. I like the grittiness of it. That film look definitely.
brings to mind stuff like Texas Chainsaw, where it's just like the frame feels dirty. You know what I mean? It's just like no matter where you are, even when they're outside during the day and Ethan Hawke is talking to the sheriff. you know, it feels foreboding. So I like that. I wish that more movies would go for that look. Like if you have a low budget.
don't go for the cheap digital look give it give it some kind of stylized look to it um because anybody can pick up a dslr these days you know what i mean everything just looks so flat that's a problem i have with um The Conjuring, not necessarily just The Conjuring, but that style of movie is a lot of those look very flat digital.
And then the jump scares don't really work because it just looks like an aspect. So you're a fan of like when Quentin Tarantino shoots in 70 millimeter and stuff like that. Oh, yeah, of course. And I know that that. Film is cost prohibitive. I'm not going to say shoot your first feature on film. You're not going to shoot a Blumhouse movie for that. No, no, no. But you can at least do something to dirty up your frame or stylize it in some way. Use a LUT that makes your...
your shot looked more interesting. I'm so tired of movies looking like music videos. When we talked about X, X looks like it was shot in the 70s. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that first opening sequence, I was like, am I watching the right movie? This feels like Texas Chainsaw. Which, by the way, have you seen Pearl? I have not seen Pearl. I'm planning on watching it tonight. Wow. Because, you know, it's set.
Here's the weird thing. It's set in 1918. It should have been set, in my opinion, in the late 30s because he flips it. It looks like The Wizard of Oz. with cinematography. I mean, it's gorgeous. It's absolutely gorgeous. So you're going to have fun watching it, I think. So anyway. And I heard that you liked it maybe even more than X. It seems like you really... I think I might. I think I need to rewatch it again at some point. But no, I...
I really liked Pearl a lot. And so, yeah, I was, I ordered it on Blu-ray and then Amazon informed me there was going to be a two month delay. And I'm like, we got a top 10 show. So I just went ahead and bought a digital version from Amazon so you and I both could watch it. Yeah, definitely looking forward to that. I've seen a few clips from it. I've seen that uncomfortable stare.
Yeah. If you know what I'm talking about. Yes. And I've seen, of course I've seen, I'm a star. That's become a meme. Yeah. But I think you're going to like it a lot. But so. Yeah. What other notes do you have about here? I agree with you. But like we said, what he did with the Super 8 I thought was just fantastic. Yeah. I will – I'll give the movie –
Two more positives, I would say, before I get into my final review of it. All right. The score is fantastic. I love the sound of it. It's very Trent Reznor. You know what I mean? It's very, very... industrial but also uh retro and it's just got a really cool sound to it it's not conventional you know there's no strings robert cargo
is credited as saying that i mean they had i think it was christopher young who did the score yeah but then he and christopher young also found like two like indie bands that had some instrumentals they thought were cool and so they licensed those as well yeah and it really works i mean it does and and we talked about you know the creepiest parts of this movie are when you know the there's just nothing but the sound of the projector and ethan hawk shifting uncomfortably
But that industrial score has that same feel to it, where it's not like, it doesn't feel like the movie telling you how to feel with a swelling string or, you know, the staccato hit of the whole symphony. Right. It really just feels like this ambience. It's like this resonance that makes you feel uncomfortable. A lot like the... the uh lords of salem uh song oh good yeah good comparison that john five song is so creepy um just with it because it's it's it is musical
But it's really abstract, and you can't really get a hold on it. Which we need to cover that at some point as well, because even if you're not a Rob Zombie fan, Lords of Salem is a good movie. Definitely. Yeah, that's gotten a reappraisal too, I feel like recently with people, you know, there are people who wrote it off like, oh, it's just a dumb Rob Zombie movie. But there are some interesting ideas in that one. It is nothing like any other Rob Zombie movie.
It is not hillbilly-ish. Yeah. It's not, every other word is not the F word. It's not that. It is a very different movie, but I didn't know, but score wise, I think you're right. I think it's a good comparison here. Yeah. And, you know. one final thing i will say i referenced this in my intro the ending of this movie is grim it's really grim and it's risky too right we've spent the entire movie with ethan hawk and then to just have him uh him
split limb from limb by his own daughter with an axe. The whole family. I mean, a seven-year-old girl just basically slaughtered her father, mother, and older brother. Yeah. Yeah. And we say older brother, but not that much older. He's like, what, 11? So it's really like, it is disturbing. And I will always give credit. You know, I wonder what Joel would think, you know, seeing as if he thinks that it was justified.
Unlike The Mist, if he thinks that the daughter killing the whole family was justified. Spoiler alert for The Mist. Yeah. Well, everybody's seen The Mist. Who hasn't seen The Mist at this point? I guess we also spoiled the mist in our Hitcher episode. That's true. That's not new territory for us. We did, but I give Joel crap about that all the time. Yeah, but...
All right. What other notes? Any other notes before we get into your pros and cons? Yeah, I think I can just – I think I'm ready to sum it up and defend myself, I think, a little bit. All right. Go for it because you and your – I'm telling you, you give this thing a low review, you're going to take some crap. Brian Scott's going to be sending you some messages, buddy. Yeah, it's not going to be my new Night of the Demon.
I don't think it's going to be that far. Pearl's never going to forgive you for that. Go ahead. I know. But, you know, I just... the worst we've talked about this before the most disappointing thing in films is where you think it's got a lot of great potential uh and it just doesn't quite live up to that i think that
Sinister has a lot of great ideas, but it resorts to genre cliches that it could have easily avoided, I feel like. Because Derrickson and Cargill demonstrate... craft and mastery and all the other areas but there are just a few moments where i feel like it resorts to those 2012 supernatural horror cliches where it could have avoided that it's just it is a little disappointing like i said
Score is fantastic. Ethan Hawke, we've been gushing about him the whole episode, but he really is fantastic in this movie. You know, the look of the film is great. The setup in the screenplay is great. You know, the false victory and then the grim ending is really great. But, you know, the extended sequences of Ethan Hawke wandering through the dark house waiting for Bagul to creep the floorboards. I will agree with you on that, yes. I could have done without that.
It makes a lot of the film's actual horror content less scary than the ideas it sets up. This is one that's more effective in your mind, I feel like. Do you know what? I mean, what I was thinking when I was rewatching it today was... Yeah. Okay, so... You know, he gets up with the bat. The projector is going off. He had locked the door. He doesn't understand what's going on. He goes in. I think if he'd gone in, shut the projector off, and you just saw the little girl.
like run by behind him real quick. Yeah. I think that's all you need to do for that scene. Done. Yeah. Because this is an hour and 50 minutes. You don't need it. This could have been, this could have been an hour, 40 minutes. Yeah, I agree. I mean, that scene where he goes up to the attic and falls through the roof, like that is, we get like 10 minutes of setup.
of him walking through the dark house with creaking yeah we didn't need all of that i agree i understand what the idea is the idea is that like the house is like settling under the all the atrocities uh that took place under like and on the property and that You know, the ghost children are running around the house. We just can't see them yet. And that is interesting. I just think that the final payoff to those scenes and to the story in general...
It just doesn't live up to the intrigue that the first three acts established. I'm just not sure I agree with you. I'm with you with the ghost children with the mask era. I'm with you there, but I disagree with the rest of it. So you would have you would have just leaned more into the cult aspect and maybe less into the supernatural. You think that's creepier? Yeah, I think. Well, I mean, it's we keep the supernatural cosmic.
You know what I mean? Not with ghost children running around, but the supernatural comes with Bagul, but he's more hinted at. We see flashes of him, but never him picking up a kid and walking around with them. Fair enough. I'm struggling to put this into words because it sets up so many interesting ideas. We're going to get comments, so you go ahead on the Facebook group. We're going to get comments. When it finally reveals – because it is convoluted, right? This idea that –
They've all lived in the previous house of the kill. So is the implication that they've watched the Super 8, that every family has discovered the Super 8 images? Yeah, they've been exposed to the images, and they've been marked. Right. So it didn't matter if they stayed in that house or not. It's a little like paranormal activity, right? In paranormal activity, I mean, Katie Featherstone's character, she's marked and it doesn't matter where she goes.
Right. So it's like the ring. Yeah. Like you see these images of Bagul and his symbol. And in fact, I think that Robert Cargill said he actually wrote this screenplay after having a nightmare after watching The Ring. Sure. And that makes sense. But so it's like, OK, these families dating back, you know, possibly thousands of years back to Babylonian times. Right. Have been exposed to these either pictographs of Bagul. or symbols or even, you know, in more recent times, photographs and video.
which leads me to believe that eventually Bagul will spread through a meme. He'll be an internet meme and he'll be spread that way. But... it's it it just it it's like okay so it's it's it's complicated but it's also not that smart i feel like i don't know it's just like it sets up these interesting ideas and then the delivery is very
Very 2012. Yeah, to be fair, it's already an hour and 50 minutes. So, I mean, it's, you know, I don't know. And we've discussed, yeah, they could have cut 10 minutes, but then you're still an hour 40. I'm not sure how more. they could have fleshed it out without people snoring, but, but I hear what you're saying. So, all right. What other pros and cons do you have? Or is that it? I mean, I will say, you know, it's.
It does, I mean, I think it did deserve a reappraisal. I've heard a lot of people write this off as, you know, one of my favorite YouTube channels is Red Letter Media. And I love Red Letter Media. They love a lot of bad horror movies, but they just, they don't like Sinister.
Whenever they see a long, black-haired character in a villain in a horror movie. Are they just contrarians? Are they just like a Bill Shetty of... I don't know. I don't think that's... I mean, they like a lot of... um they have a show called best of the worst which is kind of like a how did this get made sort of thing okay but um
that you know it's it's like and i do agree to a certain extent the bagul syndrome of this this long-haired character whether it's samara you know from the ring or the grudge or whatever It's just not – and now the new version of that is the naked old lady. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But to be fair, it's harder to be scared of somebody who looks like they just got out of a Fantastic Sam's. Sure.
you know i mean it's like i just got my eight dollar haircut uh yeah you're not gonna be scared of that right but let's think about like okay what what are the most you know what okay think about uh ethan hawk in the black phone right he's he's unassuming to the point where uh you know he's creepy he's creepy but he's not like
spooky Halloween city man. You know what I mean? Like he's not, I don't know. I just hate that, that they felt like they had to resort to these 2012 cliches of this long black haired jump scare slipknot man. When it could have been, do you know what I mean? I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm struggling to put my words together. I feel like I'm. But that, yeah, but I don't think for the average viewer, they're thinking.
Slipknot. We're metalheads, so we get that. But, yeah, I don't think, like, if I showed this to, like, my wife, which I wouldn't because she wouldn't sleep for a week. I mean, she gets freaked out by Silence of the Lambs. Yeah. But if I showed her this, you know, I think she would find it genuinely scary. And I did. I thought it was creepy. I thought it was. I mean that. So I didn't mind it as much as you did.
So I think we're just going to agree to disagree on the third act. But it sounds like you did really appreciate the first two acts. I did. And I still enjoyed watching the third act, and I think that— You know, as is, it's a pretty good, slightly elevated. It is slightly elevated. It's not just what it is on its surface level. It's very 2012, I feel like, very supernatural jump scare horror movie, but...
It has a lot of potential. Those first two acts are fantastic. And even in the third act, I think that it's obvious that Cargill and Derrickson know what they're doing. And they realize what they can do with their budget and their audience. And I think that's admirable. And I definitely... Love that Derrickson made his way back to horror with the black phone. I hope that he continues to do these types of movies.
The same is true of Ethan Hawke. You know, he was great in the black phone. He's great in this. I would love to see him do more stuff. everybody's making their way back to horror i mean even kevin bacon you know with they flash them which i haven't seen yet i don't have high hope for it but um you know what it's not i will say this i won't go any further and say it's not
Terrible. And it is a slasher. Okay. So he's, you know, even going back to slashers now from his Friday the 13th origin. So, yeah. A slasher at a gay conversion camp. Yeah.
and that is interesting i mean i like the way the industry is heading i mean even you know again we reference smile it does have some trappings of of 2020 horror movies but it's also got some interesting ideas in there i think that high concept is back right um as well as a splatter film i mean say what you will about terrifier 2 i know we did on our patreon episode yeah but uh
But it is indicative. For those listening, I liked Terrifier 2. Go ahead. Yeah, I did too. I gave it a positive rating, but it's indicative that there is an audience for that. You gave it somewhat a positive rating, but go ahead. You had issues with it. Sure. Sure. Send your hate mail to – no, go ahead. Yeah. Send your hate mail to me through a direct message on Patreon when you sign up. There you go. $2.50 a month. There you go. But –
But yeah, so I would say, you know, I did like it and it was a great rewatch for me. It was interesting. And I like movies where there is some missed potential that I can think about. It's more interesting than a movie where you're like, yep, that pretty much was exactly what I thought it would be.
And there's not much more they could have done with that. Right. So, yeah, I do think that's interesting. I think it is slightly elevated, even though I hate that terminology, but it's effective here. I think it's got its place. um you know i i i liked it i enjoyed it i think that the black phone is an improvement which i wanted to ask you about i think you know
depending on what your opinion of Sinister is, your rating is, where do you think that Derrickson improved, or what do you think you lost when it came to the Black Phone? I... well let me let me get my rating first sure that that'll tell me a lot i think okay um i rate sinister i took a point away
for what we talked about the ghost kids with the mascara i agree with you on that yeah i i thought that was a waste of time and and and i thought it was a little too long for what it was trying to do i i thought it did stick the landing even though i did think the landing was was predictable but i think the cast is great sure i give it nine out of ten wow yeah and i can't even i'm not even mad at that um i'm gonna go with the seven out of ten okay
That's a positive review for you. You're pretty harsh raiders. That's a positive review. Sure. Yeah. And you can see all my, despite all my issues, I enjoy talking about it and thinking about it. And like I said earlier, the movies that are most effective for me are the ones.
that have something to think about after the movie's over and i am thinking about that i'm thinking about the setup to this movie and and about bagul and and how you could utilize that and honestly you know i haven't seen sinister 2 it's not been as well received as i have I haven't seen it either.
We might have to see it because, you know, a lot of the things that I thought could have been elaborated on, maybe they do. And maybe the audience reaction is negative because it doesn't have those 2012 trappings, you know, jump scares. Some part of me doubts that. I think it's probably going to lean in more to those scary kids in the dark aspects of Sinister. But you never know. I think it's worth looking into.
Yeah, so 7 out of 10 for me on Sinister. And I'm curious, I think that you gave The Black Phone a similar rating. So I'm wondering where you think he lost things or where do you think he improved? I mean, it is an adaptation of a short story. is that difference there right it's an adaptation of a short story i need to see the black phone again yeah because i've only seen it once i've seen sinister now i've seen it twice all the way through i've seen bits and pieces of it here and there sure um
But I need to see the Black Phone again to really come down. I think I gave the Black Phone an 8 out of 10. Okay. So close, you know. And the Black Phone is definitely in contention for my top 10 of the year. And I think it could very well show up on our horror Oscars, especially Ethan Hawke's performance. But I need to watch it again. Yeah, I would say.
For me, I think that Sinister has an effective setup and mediocre payoff, like I said, whereas the Black Phone is more consistent tonally. It delivers on its setup better. But I think Sinister has more intrigue and potential to begin with. You know, when we're in the Black Phone, once the...
main character is in the basement and he's discovered that the phone is haunted and that ethan hawk is crazy you know there's not a lot of mystery there you know what i mean it's like we're there with this movie as it goes on i mean for the first even our and even beyond that i mean we're discovering things right up until the last five minutes um as with ethan hawk you know as he gets that final call from deputy so-and-so so i mean i i i think that that's a a um
a really good thing to have in a movie is something that continually keeps you guessing but i think the black phone delivered and was more consistent um But, yeah, I just think that it's not necessarily better or worse. I think that it's different. Like we said, it's an adaptation, whereas this was, you know, it's an original idea, which was edited by Derrickson.
cargill which by the way cargill also adapted um joe hill's story for um the black phone i don't know if we mentioned that they work together again so this is the triumvirate they've worked together quite a few times they work together on doctor strange too so this is the the but for for horror this is the triumvirate you know of of cargill derrickson and hawk
when these three get together i think they really do uh they really do achieve greatness to some extent so seven out of ten i i'll have to let you guys know what i think of sinister two when i watch it because i am interested to watch it um i don't know I mean, it's not high on my list, but I definitely will. Right now I'm trying to squeeze in as much 2022 horror movies before.
top 10 list here in right six weeks you know i mean so um but yeah okay so positive review from both of us you just felt that the third act fell a little bit i i thought it was fine um So, folks, Jackson mentioned you can become a supporter over at Patreon, and you can. Patreon.com, Father and Son Watch Horror Movies, and you can sign up for $2.50 a month. All proceeds go to help Jackson through film school and aspiring horror filmmaker.
And you can vote in our horror Oscar poll starting next year. And you can also be on the show, suggest movies, themes, listen to bonus episodes, all that kind of fun. stuff and you can find more father and son watch horror movies at father and son watch horror movies dot com at twitter at father son horror and we also have a closed facebook group um
I get a lot of requests, but I have to do the Greg Amortis thing. I don't approve them unless you message me and tell me that basically you're not a bot. So I hate to pull an Elon Musk on you, but we don't want people selling Ray-Bans on there and all kinds of stuff. So we were kind of picky about who we let on. on that closed group. But Twitter, you can just follow us over there. Where can they find you, buddy? Well, you can find me.
On Twitter at Kane underscore Hero12. That's K-A-I-N-E underscore Hero12. You can find my Letterboxd on YouTube from there. Also on the Father and Son site, we have a new tab for a short film. You can see ones I did when I was 15 and then 17. and i'm working i'm in pre-pro on a short right now on a horror short right now so that'll be there you can see me at the at age 19 what i'm doing now with with horror so and your band and my band yeah it and the
By the way, the thing I'm on pre-pro right now is a horror music video for one of our songs. So that'll be, you know, worlds colliding, as George Costanza would say. But yeah, you can definitely check that out. Also check out the blog because you've written, you have... 20 blog posts on there. It ranges from lists and reviews and topics. Definitely check that out.
Big, big things coming to the Father and Son of Honor thing. But if I can ever, once I finish this degree that I'm doing, I will start doing that again. And you can follow me at Pastor Matt R over Twitter and Letterboxd. That's what I basically use. It's all letterboxed is all basically horror movies. I usually don't review any other movies on there occasionally, but not.
Not usually. And Twitter, I just basically use for podcasts. So that's where you can follow that stuff because Facebook is basically all for my church stuff and all kinds of other kind of nonsense. You probably don't want to mess with that. You should tune in for the dog pictures, though. Yes, I do occasionally post pictures of my wife's dogs, yes. So...
What are we going to cover next? What do you think? Should we just throw this over to the Patreons or what do you think? We do that. We've got that. We're thinking about having a few guests on to talk about a topic. Yes. In general, which will be a really good one.
expecting if we do that it'll be it might be a long one it might be like our tarantino thing because there's a lot to cover and the two there is a lot to cover we are hoping to hoping to do but we record you know either fridays or sundays or whatever and and um fridays a lot of people work that's why we don't have a guest on today sundays one of the guests we wanted to have on and said he would be on but
He says, I can't do Sundays during football season because I watch football with my dad every Sunday. Yeah. And I respect that. I respect that as well. And he's a great guy. Of course, we're talking about Dave Z. over at the Exploding Heads podcast and the Watt Z Horror Party and Jay of the Dead's new horror podcast to talk about slashers. We want to do a thematic episode about slashers, what makes a slasher, what are our favorite slashers.
all that kind of stuff. So we hopefully will make that happen soon. We, a lot of people want to be on, we've got some specific guests we want on, but coordinating that as, as you know. is interesting. It doesn't like when we did Halloween ends and we had four co-hosts on. That doesn't happen often just because people's schedules. Yeah, yeah. And that was just a happy accident that that came together so well. And we had Bill, Butcher Bill joining in and the 11th hour on that one.
Yeah, but that was really great. We've got, you know, like I said, I'm watching Pearl today. Uh, so that might be something to look into, but I'll throw it over to the patrons, uh, so they can decide. Um, because you know, that slasher one's going to be a scheduling thing, but we definitely, we will, we will do the slasher episode as soon.
As we... Sorry, I'm still recovering from COVID. But we'll do that as soon as we can schedule it. Until then, yeah, just see what the Patreon supporters think about what we need to cover in December. Yeah.
All right, buddy. Well, I think that about covers it, so you want to say goodbye to the good people? I do, and I want to say goodbye and remember to tune in for Scott Derrickson's next flick. He's done a movie about haunted Super 8 film and a haunted phone. I think the only place for him to go is... remake of Ghostbusters 2 with a haunted painting. Oh gosh, we don't need Ghostbusters 2. Alrighty, well folks, thanks for listening.
Please subscribe. Give us a good rating. Jump on over to Patreon. We appreciate it. And remember, the family that watches horror together slays together. See you next time. Once again, I want to thank our Patreon supporters. Joel Robertson, Ian West, Ian Urza, Greg Russell, Greg Bench.
Dave Becker, Dan George, Carl Davis, Brian Scott, Billy Dee, Ashley Pinkard, and Ann Dredd. Thank you guys so much for supporting the podcast. You're the best. Like I've said before, you make this podcast possible. I got a final exam coming up here in a week. So, yeah. Yeah, we're pretty much the same. We pretty much got the same level of stress with these exams. Yeah. Yeah. Mine's pretty much the same as a PhD, you know. Yeah. I hope not I wouldn't wish that on you