User experience fails in video games, part 2

introduction I just

a live remix

introduced. I think someone scream. I half way through.

i feel like if anyone's if we have such a thing as like a regular listener to the show this is all very much part for the course at this point

I should hope so. yeah,

so wait a minute is this mut not working can you still hear me

yeah, yeah, we can still hear you.

i think you won mu e yourself

well that that's a that's a big game me now

Yes,

yes

what the fuck

what did you do it on your microphone

think you

hey

need to know now you just don

me it now

mute it yourself. No, No, youve only me to yourself now.

why is

okay this is

the me working now ah what buddy

this is quality podcast content

Oh yes.

hello

oh, well, today's subject is the u. ▁x of podcasts.

the ux of mute buttons

How not to make a podcast.

ah boy i don't know what's going on here with this bick i don't know

beret berry it worked that bad there was music the top of most of it anyway

Y, it

to do it again it's got it's gonna be quiet now

shall we third time to char

do again third tons of charm

i don't know okay that works about but yeah

so okay cool do it

it was pretty funny that you thought you were muted and you weren't to be honest one

Gosh? I just realized it's been a week since we recorded last and it genuinely feels. I. We. It yesterday

i know well

just told know where the time iss going.

kind of feels like we did about ten minutes ago

Maybe that's what it is somehow that that intro felt longer every time.

if it seem it feels to me like we've done this in or three times today

Yeahk, you. Yeahk, you.

no i've been involved in that doing more than that and

and to anyone listening that's a that's a little private jot between the three of us because this is the third time we've tried to record this intra and so far um this the best one so we apologize for that but this is as good as it gets

we

maybe

apologize that this is the best one

yeah

yeah, maybe that's what we should say in our opening Faster horses a u ▁x podcast we are sorry, Just

that's all right

really manage expectation.

just maybe maybe just get some t shirts made with our faces on it it just says we're sorry i

Yeah, think I think that would work.

well we we should definitely do that

We

definitely do

do have merchandise with you. merchandise. Mhm.

we have merge we have faster horses merch

where can you

uh you can actually

get the faster horses mech

you can you can get them from my website paul show up codo uk ford slash shop see i did that

Yeah, yeah,

that was a lovely transition

i genuinely thought you were just gonna go you can get them from my website

just leave it or not.

yeah yeah

I

but we've got your meat

like the way that the faster house' Merch is on a website that doesn't have Faster Horses mentioned in it once

paul is

that'

faster horses

well i i'm like the back end of the pana so

that's the most important bit that's the business end

Yeah, exactly.

yeah that's the business end yeah yeah it's like

has that's where all the good

yeah

goes on whereas

yeah

you've got sha ponies like me and mark up front stealing all the limelight but not contribute in very much

I just looking pretty. Yeah, yeah,

they yeah

true,

i

it

it'd be it i think our if we were a pantomime horse we'd be very similar to that game of thrones kind of horse kind of like our it kind of like starts really nicely drawn like mark and

oh yes. Oh, thank you.

oh right yeah

then it kind of like pe peters off into into

oh

like o scribble

the the

which should be me at the end

the

Mhm.

bulb effect one of that is fucking hilarious where it's like

oh yeah

three steps it's the three progress steps of the horse and then all of a sudden it's a tiger so it just starts redrawing a tiger for two panels and then it's back to the end of the horse again

yeah

absolutely amazing right anyway what's what's the subject today

i was yeah yeah what's the

No, my min,

subject you want to draw role

yes

go on

forgotten

for dog starts barking. Now

what were we doing

we. I thought we wereugt continuing our conversation on video games and the U. ▁x thereof.

vx

yeah

or video games part two if you like

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

parting pot

um. which would suggest that there was some level of planning or contingency in place. Absolutely. Isn't we just

actually

enjoyed talking about games last week. Uh over two weeks ago and we wanted to continue today. and last week we kind of concluded. we have started talking about tutorials and on boarding, but kind of reon boarding. More than anything. The idea of when you leave a game something that you've put forty hours of work into, if I say work a play into, ideally, um, and then you leave it for a couple of months, and you come back and all

well

war there's lots of things

first off that was a lovely game of

there was

throne style recap of last week so

yeah

thanks for that yeah

Was it I didn't

nice

watch? Gave, thon. I didn't expect gamethrones to have some northern Twt, andnn sing.

these lords lords of

the

northern to acting games at game of thrones

Oh, yeah, that's true. No, lod.

yeah yeah he was carol central to the plots

Yeah,

yeah apart throwing a few breasts and a penis and you've pretty much got one episode there

that's a weend. so it isn't it? Yeah,

yeah

nice i'm well what yeah that i mean there's loes in there i i learned the other day that you can't pause alden ring

No, you can't but that's that's part of the mechanics of it. Yeah, is that

he spoke about that great length last week paul

Yeah? add? did.

did did you hear that on our podcast by the johns

yeah well but you i i didn't realize you couldn't pause pae it though i thought i thought we talked about k on the map and stuff like that and and things like that you can go on but i didn't realize there was no pause

Yeah, it's

and it was

yeah

it's a really tricky one. Actually, I've been thinking about that because the poor lack of pausing in the game is done so that you know, Um, you can't. it. It contributes to the difficulty. when you're in a fight. It means that you can't change your equipment or you can, But it's a risk and it becomes a part of the wide game now. Of course that that means that you don't have any systems menus that also pause again and and to the point where you can actually still move your character

i wonder how

Um,

much of that is technically because it's like an online game as well when you can pause online games can you and if they would

I don't know. The only reason I, I'd argue not is because Um, all the other Souls titles or from software games have similar mechanics where you unable

say

to passe it, but I think that

and

might be a consideration.

i remember when the first dead space came out and it was a big thing that like not only could you not pause it but the menu was like in world it was like a projection of via your armor

Yeah, yeah,

and that you would never basically it just gave you that sense that you were never safe at any point even if you just managing your inventory you could be like attacked and in fact it might have been number two where the mir a set piece out of that specific light fear an

hm.

unesc like set piece of opening your menu and then someone comes out are you

I think I remember when I was at university, Dead Space being the when we were talking about you, I, being the one that you constantly go to, no matter what it was. The what module you were doing There would always be the one game that was the example,

yeah

which in my opinion is probably a bit shortsighted, but that was. Um. That was the U are to to look, Was the way Dead Spurs Did. They did have quite a refined way of doing it. Um.

here

I, I thought it was interesting. One of the mechanics in Metro twenty thirty three is that bullets are also your currency,

bullets

So you've got to make a choice. You got to make a choice between whether you're buying stuff with bullets. Um, and of course you're on the risk of not being able to shoot anything. Um,

shooting things with bullets i quite like that

mm,

cause that that sort of carries the logic of that carries the net quite

go on,

like that well like if you were a person who was in an apocalyptic wasteland who was like whatever they're doing what what was it metro

yeah, yeah, so yeah,

which is i i've not i've never actually played metro but it's a bit like stalker in it where it's sort

Mhm,

of set in the subways of russia and his all ns and stuff and you're out there killing him all but yeah like a bullet would be quite a rare and important thing so not only could you trade with them but you'd use them to shoot things in the face as well

yeah, yeah, yeah, I really liked it and it did something similar cause they they had, Um, I think are quite an interesting. you eye for. Uh, your bullet count as well, Um, but um, it did something similar when it talked when it came to making you feel unsafe because you have to take that risk and I think going back to Alden ring, the the way they've kind of mitigated. That is that realistically. you don't need to pause. The only reason you'd need to pause is Um,

if you're a nbe

to save the environment, to to reduce the process in power whilst you were whilst it was idle, but at the same time you can also save the game and ▁quit at any point as well, so Um, I suppose the argument now is you are safe, Um at very specific points and those points are common. So if you didn't need to pop off the loo than you can do. and if you do need to go longer than just ▁quit, the game for a bit and go and touch grass,

is that euphemism

go have. Um could be.

i like it that that's what my son says when he talked about fortnight kids not taking a break and it said the need to go touch grass and it's like an insult

Yeah, that's where I've only heard that very recently. That was was basically where I heard it from, but not not your child. Don't worry, but but from my, I think from my sister and

so

her children. But yeah, incidentally in Elden ring, the safe points, the, are called grace. And so it is known as Touching Grace when you find one of these pins.

that that is a euphemism

So I do wonder if that is a euphemism for

i sure is

Get off the game for a bit. You

i like it i like it so good good okay i was worried that it was like a bad ux there was no pause or things like that but i think you've kind of justified it nicely that it's all

i mean

just to touch grass

i i arguably it probably is bad ux but it's a good game mechanic and sometimes maybe those two things don't necessarily go hand in hand

kind of inflict almost. Yeah.

yeah yeah like like the actually yeah so like

think' really interesting point

if you wanted to talk in ideals right about what the best possible ux for a game would be it'd be so good that it basically played itself on it so there has to be like i know we've kind of touched on this the other week actually is that the games difficulty and mechanics and stuff should be the things that make it difficult and not like the ux the where the controls are led or the way the menus are navigated and stuff like that but um

' to give you a challenge to overcome.

yeah yeah yes

Yeah, I, I know what you mean. Now Interesting with, There is another game that really tried to sell itself on having no pause menus. Um, and that was a favable three. I think it was Um, and that when you paused it. Um. I don't know if you know Paul, but you are muted right now and

and i do know i do

Aker good. Just making sure

know i'm just uh talking to co cocos just when to

get involved.

talk to me

derail live pon cast derail live pon cast derail live pon cast

One of my her opinion of Elder Ring is, um.

yeah she's completed it

Oh, Mirker, new game plus,

just uh she did it in about the thirty yeah yeah yeah yeah she's on the hard level now

yeah, yeah, the quicker. the speed run for Elden Ring is currently at thirty minutes to complete the game, which I just, I've not seen it, but I don't know how. The

thirty

cheese

minutes what the fuck we just run straight to the like the last part

no idea. No idea. I refuse to watch it because I'm not that far and I've got character with forty. I was on him. So you know,

yeah yeah

oh okay

i

um,

just thought

but um, So yet, M the game Fabible Three. The way that that worked was it was gimmicky. To be honest, it felt like they. that. Um. The designers had latched on to this idea of not having any pause screens, and you did. Uh. When you went to the system's menu, it paused and it, in, in fact, it kind of just gave you extra steps to get to that system's menu, and the way it worked was when you paused or accessed your equipment, it would send you to a place called Sanctuary,

oh yeah

And it was just this room and you have to go into rooms to access your equipment

now that was fucking crap

And essentially what that meant you were doing is that to change your weapon, you'd have to teleport somewhere else. Go to go armory, select the weapon and then go out. Now. That's I can see the appeal for that, a certain r, p. G level I, for one, obsessive over collecting equipment, having a nice place to display it. stuff like that within playing.

yeah

but that was, that was the basic menu system. So there was no quick movement, and when you got down to it when you were in that sanctuary, things were effectivelyed and if you needed to leave the game, it still felt like you weren't safe to do so because it still think system still felt like systems were still running in the background, which is really what people want to when they menus.

that's another thing it just reminded me of like uh red dead redemption kind of took must have taken that idea and done it in a much better way because that was a lot of people's like a problem with that game is like it was all very slow and manual like get your guns and stuff you have to walk up to your horse and like pull it out of the saddle and people just thought that was too realistic but i really liked that and i thought i

yeah i yeah me too

through and quite as quite a good aw but again that's like um that's a u x thing in it and not

yeah

not everyone has like a a lot of time to like luxuriously bask in a computer game menu selecting stuff sometimes you've got thirty minutes at lunch time and it's the only time you've got to play it and you just want to get something done and that

yeah

that makes a poor experience doesn't it

Yeah, I think there's a real. There's a real acknowledgement here on an severe acknowledgement that there are different ways of playing the game essentially or playing ear game. And there are people who only have half an hour now. Um, every time a Nick and I try to set off an online game, it takes as for it universally takes us at least an hour. No matter what the game is. We flared games specifically designed for cross platform play.

yeah

And this is going back to Outriders, And and it still took us an hour to get into one another's games.

i mean what what was the what was a really bad one monster hunter

Monster Hunter was particularly bad, because the there just wasn't the explanation on how to do it.

there's no explanation the menus were terrible but also they wouldn't they didn't tell you this but you're not allowed to play a level for the first time with anyone else you got to complete it and then you've got to like replay it with a friend but they don't tell you that so we would try a match mick and join a game together it just wasn't working but there was no indication of why and that was really badd i mean like a like i say there was no

yeah

text not enough flight iconography not enough like helper text or instruction

You can see that

really bad

this

they trying to have a system in place, cause of this whole grouping and guild ballocks. that Um, they were trying to, they had. I think they had larger visions than than what was real. I think this is a very common problem with games design in general, if they set up systems in their games like this, like with the menu in the anticipation that this is going to be everybody's game for the next forty years, you know, and that everyone

there i go

in the world is going to be playing Mon Hunter, and is going to be these vast communities. Now it's a noble ambition and there's no reason to say that that won't happen And are communities withinster hunter people who still play it today. Same with Sos games, but you still need to have systems in place that work on a much smaller scale, far more immediate.

yeah there's a good you talked about that kind of like first level and that that's happened on a few games it can and its build as like a cooperative games and kind of in my house we love coop games and quite a few times i think um one one point was it a guacamole gua male

are you

too was a two play game but you couldn't access the other players until you lock them and until you'd met them so like i was playing through and kind of like thank go and then everybody else is just getting frustrating and knowing you just play this on your own its not really a two player game but that's kind of what he was sold as that's kind that was the big that's why i purchased it for that

yeah

cooperative element so don't make me go through and do a level and get and another cooperative element so don't make me go through and do a level and get and another thing with that as well because you do that thing with that as well because you do that you get ahead of the game mechanics before anybody else

Mhm.

yeah

and then everybody else then is catching up with you and then everybody else then is catching up with you because you've already done those levels and things like that and like why get you all in at the same time we kind of like you know if you need to do something you know just why make it hard for people to do that

there's a there's a really bad one of those in dragon quest builders too so drew loves that game she loves to watch me play it and i keep saying like you can play it on if we both get it on switch we can both play it together but before you unlock multiplayer you've got to play at least like a quarter of the game till i open a portal to summon another person in your world so you can then play it with them they say i just don't

yeah exactly

like for some weird weird gameplay mechanics bunker so we've never done it and we've never played it gameplay mechanics bunker so we've never done it and we've never played it

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. then

together together

if you, um, if you are advertising your game as a multiplayer experience, and then at the first quarter of the game, no bear mind. these are games that are now modeling themselves off being your job for the next you know, Foreseeable future

eight

That you know, they're asking you to put ten hours into an experience before you get access to what you actually purchased for. If it was like that in any other

yeah

sphere, in with any other, Um, you know technology,

medium

imagine imagine you had to watch a film on Sil for the first twenty five percent of it before you unlock the sound.

should

If it is integral to the experience you try, and a C area that you trying to cultivate.

i mean he's literally

yeah although i think wali did that so

Yeah, gran, they manage that,

imagine

but but in a nice way

it is literally like watching the first twenty minutes of a film before drew's allowed to come in and sit down next to me and

Mhm.

watch the rest of it

yeah it's crazy yeah

Yeah,

i i don't get that

no its not

which which also brings me onto another point as well online gaming in general general i find

crap in it

y anza bit crap because either i don't know whether this is down to matchmaking or who's playing online at the minute but it's either

you

it's very hit and miss you can kind of like get into like a you know kind of like if you join a squad with people you don't know or things like that then you're relying on people a either being as good as you or better or be being crap or say them being too good and they

two good

piss off and leave you behind it kinda like there's no i never feel like there's a middle ground of that and then

i mean with

you get people who

online gaming

ah yeah

i just feel like in terms of creating that it must be very difficult to like engineer an an online game in terms of like matchmaking balanced matchmaking like

oh yeah yeah

the technology be literally hosting and matchmaking a game and make sure making sure that it runs and doesn't crash i bet

ah

that's such a difficult thing to actually build it's unsurprising that it it's really done well and like and then you launch it and you get way more demand than you were either budgeted

yeah

for or expected and it just

yeah yeah

crashes anywhere

I

yeah

think an example of this, perhaps done better, once done right would probably be something like League of Legends, which have you know they. It's necessary for them to have a robust tear system to to help. No, I nevered Legal legends, The people I I know on you who play it did a very good job of putting me off

yep

But the legal legend has a tier system and the variat entry is is still very high, But when you get into those ashelons then you are being matched with people of a similar skill because you've got a backlog of information of data. You know whether it killed a death ratio, whether its matches W, et cetera et Ctera, That allows you to match quite well. I'm wondering whether that needs to be adapted changed and appropriated, for you know, a wider kind of type of game.

i think as well i for me as well it depends on how i'm feeling sometimes i don't feel like i want to do an intense server and

yeah

get into massive battles i want to do with the more casual kind of stuff and kind of like and i feel like never never gets into that kind of gives you the option because it's so smoke and

you

mirrors behind the scenes you never kind of actually do that kind of you know what you feel like during today how would you feel like planes you know do you wanna get better and learn with people more experienced than you or do you wanna kind of like just kind of take it easy or and and i suppose kind of there's a bit kind of light that could be exploited that you know it could be exploited but at the same time know there's different times of the day i feel like

i

doesn't give you that option or what you want to do

i really like that idea and i'd love something like

yeah

that on sea thieves which i quite like to play a lot but it's there's a lot of like trawling on that game i think that ruins it for me personally and that'd be nice where you could just set up a session where you know you're in with like minded people who don't have any interest in fight in and there's lot like you said that you could exploits that but there's lots of ways where you could build things in

yeah

so that couldn't happen so you could you know like you if you just playing about you've got no progress or you've got no currency or

yeah yeah

you know there's no

Yeah,

weapons even like the cannons on your on your ship dot work or something like that it be fairly easy to

Mhm, or you just can't take damage from other players

do yeah yeah yeah yeah

yeah yeah yeah yeah

and I think there are there are. It's usually server and stuff like think stuff like Mincraft servers that have a specific purpose and they all have moder mods and they'll have additional kind of Um settings in place to to make sure that and they. They're often very intensely moderated by the the moderators in the in the game world or some else. A little bit of power is a dangerous thing, But um,

another question i wanted to ask as well said the ux of and this has become a massive kind of genre like farming sims and uh sys where you do jobs um i'd kinda like let an animal cross it is a massive example of this and whenever i play animal crossing i love animal cross in but there's a point in the game that and i don't know if i'd realize it or not then i think she i've just gone to work for six hours and

yeah yeah

i've just done the bidding of some furry animals ah and kinda like don't care like i've got like lots of tasks and i've i'm glad i've saved to all this money and i brought a house for them and like i kind of like when the fuck did that happen i'm like what

like

which

um and and

animal animal crossing like

yeah

literally crosses a line where it goes from being a game to being like a daily literally crosses a line where it goes from being a game to being like a daily child is it child is it

yeah yeah yeah and it it's a weird one i had to go cold turkey on animal crossing to stop it being like a like a job i feel like i felt like i perhaps should have like wrote a letter of resignation on the notice board and said like i'm not going back to this island or something i don't know

i really w i wanna come to your island now i really w i wanna come to your island now

there's a phenomenon. though,

yeah

Yeah,

i

that's just a strike.

i gave her month's note yeah i gave a month's notice i worry

There's um. There's an interesting phenomena of people who are Um, coming home from work and playing E or truck simulatated to for a was on end, you

see

yeah yeah yeah

know or flight simulator. Mhm,

that and like flight simulator yeah flight simulator is i think it was it was or it is on game pass i really want to play that cause

Yeah, e. chrs,

it is just like super realistic

Chris explaent to me once that he did a Um. what it did. A lo, a low flight, a low altitude flight from Manchester to London. It took him two hours. It took him as long as it would take him to fly from

eight

Manchester to London, and

to actually do it it

yeah yeah yeah

you sat there. Only did it heped again, but

i love that

I think it it taps into a specific escapism. and and and I think this is kind of where I think it it taps into a specific escapism. and and and I think this is kind of where the conversation can lead into a wider discussion about the nature of society. T. M.

hey

doesn't take as long to grow a turnip in Valet as it does in real life, And you know I can still do it from. Yeah, exactly,

which is good ux

yeah yeah yeah co come around and borrow borrow some of my nucleus they'll get them growing pretty quick

so i feel like again we've like descended into talking about like mechanics and natural specific games stuff but have you got any

yeah yeah

examples of like actual video game ux good things or bad things because i add a bit of a think about one thing that i really hear about quite a lot of video games at the moment which is this like obsession with making the pointer move like a mouse and keyboard rather than

oh yeah

just using up and down on a deeper to like click between options so the first game i ever noticed with it in was destiny and destiny too but a lot of games particular games like destiny where you know the idea like luke sh was basically there the menu is almost exactly the same where you use the the left analog stick to move around a screen with a pointer that moves like a mouse but you're on a console with a controller with a d ad

Mhm.

on it where you could literally just press up or down or left or right and jump around the menu and and also like correct me if i'm wrong listeners but it doesn't even give you the option to do that if you choose it's either like well it's not either anything you've got to use that like in uh mouse interaction and it's it's just terrible like the the way that it speeds up and you know when you press full in one direction on the deep

Is it its

yeah

interesting because parallel the where it works is obviously with a computer mouse and

yeah

that's fine, but that's because the feedback the is um, far more is's far better represented. Were far more used to doing that.

it's a one or one movement of the hand to the mouse in it that's the whole point yeah

It's yeah. Mhm, yeah, yeah.

whereas it doesn't work like

yeah

that on a on a on a

yeah

analog stick

and you've got the actual device you use in but when you try and emulate something with fresh air condo

yeah yeah

yeah, exactly. you move your mouse as much as you need to move on a screen based on the rasu of sensitivity, and you just cos. thats that's a. That's a thing that's happening in ▁x and y space. as much as it is on screen. Then it becomes something that you can easily map in your head that now that will never happen in with a um, with a an analogu strip, an arog stick, because that's just not how you're moving. You're moving linearly. Um,

it's like bounded as well though and

yeah,

there's a certain distance you can go with an analog stick

Mhm, Yeah, exactly exactly. so I don't think I. I agree with you now. it's interesting, but the best systems for me. I say I'm a P. C gamer, so a lot of the games I have have curses like that, but it's ma mostus, so it's fine, but then what I'll do is have if I planing on console. I love my Conraontary Onc with a controller. The moment I um hit the deepad, it goes from the cursor to highlighting option number one, and I

yeah you know i kind of think i i i

body

know what you mean it's kind of like i don't know why websites don't do that traditional kind of like you know if you navigate on our website and like why doesn't your mouse stick to that button and kind of you know where the navigation is and and things like that and i'm sure that make it loads easier for a lot people to do

god yes that

that and i don't know why that's not carried on

like it just

but i don't know if the the

it just

gear

logs like the the y movement of the mouse and like clicks

yeah

between the option yeah like

yeah yeah

almost like the like the wheel mi on a mouse

Mhm,

yeah yeah its almost like having a bit of like magnetic resistance on your pointer

yeah that's really good they such a good idea

that just kind of like not too much kind of resistance not like the new mugs charger on the macbook that dove heard if you trip over the wire it pulls the bloody mu off the the table

correct

that does not make safe that's mak stick

uhhuh,

uh by ux i'm going to talk about i think one one thing that i thought of that we didn't cover last week is some dark ux and video games and i'm going to specifically point my finger at mobile games

ah me

uh and the ones that where they can fly it's was that spit in disgust nick

at it was yeah i spit at you

and

mobile games

ah and it's just like and it's like the the engross you ear and then you get to like something like level twenty and then you could only play like a level a day otherwise you've got then pay ridiculous and it's ridiculous amount it's not even like a token amount money like subscribing to our show is you know dirt cheap it's less than a cup of coffee you know let's do a little point you know but it's like it's like three ninety nine or something and then that only lasts for that day and then you

yeah

of like some

it

t teenagers and you know

Mhm.

kind of like kids kinda like you've got beer pocket money and it's just exploitation to the degree kind of

this is.

it's not it's not a game

some part of with un powered ryanair

it's not a game

yeah. yeah, yeah, mm. I' say it's worse to be honest. Um, at the end of the day. at the end of the day I and I still turkey somewhere. Um.

yeah i try to try

I think that so there, this is a big big subject and there's a lot

yeah sorry

around here. No, no, don't apologize, Will like big subjects here. I and I think Uh, mobile is a good place to start because it tends to be worth these things. It's kind of that little ecosystem in which these things develop these, these egreedious sort of exploitation tactics. Um. I remember the release of Um, a Harry Potter game or mobile. No,

yeah

the first time, So you get you go through the tutorial and you have certain amount of energy, shall we say for each day to spend on Um on on various tasks, And it would

yeah

take you any. So you you're doing your levitation spell. It would take you energy to get through that and you progres. No, it was specifically done in such a way that you had enough energy up until the story beat where your character an avertar. Now we could talk about the psychology of creating a Aatars as well, But Um, your avatar that you've created and gone through the shore, tutorial is' attacked by some kind of creature

who are you

Who's doing this? Who? who? by and large if the, if they, growing up in an adjusted Who's doing this? Who? who? by and large if the, if they, growing up in an adjusted household haven't been exposed to children being strangled on their mobile forms household haven't been exposed to children being strangled on their mobile forms are probably going to freak out.

yeah yeah

They. they've They've introduced. not only the the, you know, the the desire to continue playing. Um. And and that kind of

yeah

compulsion loop as a means of getting money out to people. They're actually actively in inducing stress as a means of pushing kids to.

extracting money out

Yeah, to extract money.

i know it's you know when you when you explain it like that it sounds like a plot line from grange hill where one of one of the bullies take takes you in the hole strangles you and you can't get free until you give them your pocket money

That's That's

like it

literally what it is you know.

yeah yeah kind of y yeah

And so

yeah

Yeah, theres this. The.

just

And I think that the trouble is with this kind of thing is that Um. it happens in more in Morbile, and it's successful. I mobile. and then publishers get wind of it and start to introduce it into

yeah

Um. into existing games into other games into console games Into you know, every single game

what

now has a

battlefront two was fucking

triple a release. Yes, exactly has a storefront has loop boxes, has, and has its own currcies, and

yeah

generally more than one, so that they can confuse you into into various things. No,

yeah

there are some games that do this very well. I've noticed. for example, in Norman' Sky, I actively looked for the bit where I can buy some currency because O. A. I can't believe you find it anywhere.

yeah which is which is nice

yeah

barrier i

yeah yeah

remember mario odyssey did the same thing so i was playing mario odyssey and i saw that there was a second currency on it i was like fuck not marry or not marry or and it just turned it just turned out that actually what it was is every level as as a a specific currency that one went collected you can buy

are yeah

you can buy customizations based on that level but it's nothing to do with like real money or anything which actually like really nice like a really nice mechanic

Yeah, it can

yeah

be a idea. The

no

I think the worst I've seen for morebile tactics in a um, in a triple a title, Triple A being a kind of a mass appeal, huge investment type of big budgy again and was one of the. It was a football game, Pro Evolution or something like that. Um,

oh yeah

and the the advertisement for it has a lot of you know, uh, football stars in it, or or sports persons, in general.

i think it was one of the fee for games one it fee for like

Was it one of the fee agains,

yeah yeah yeah

And it was astonishing because every single thing there was no football in the actual gameplay footage whatsoever. Every single football play playing the game was playing some fucking gambling machine, like a Pichinco machine, or unlocking a a loopbx, or are doing some obscure miniig that was tantamount to gambling. That was, do know at ta e gambling,

yeah yes that's the other thing

and and that was being sold as the game. So what

yeah

when do I actually play the fuck in football?

yeah the

i don know you're a big fan of not

Oh yeah,

only video

yeah

football video games but the real thing too

oh yeah,

yeah

maphon. I like the bit where they shepherd the bit of leather into the outdoor cupboard. That's myorite.

i can it's yeah but yeah i'll get this laysan and i think mo mobile

home

is particularly bad and i think they have

so

started int in that and i always find that in gaur is kind of like it it's a bit like your no you know your own clothes day at school if you're listen in this america in the uk we have uniforms and we can't wear our own clothes can't wear gucci every day you know we just have to reserve it for a special day in the year and yeah you know but i kind of it's that kind of like you know and if you haven't got that scheme or if you haven't got that in mo or things like that you become kind of like

yeah well there's a there was a time like the other year where kids were getting called default at school because

oh yeah yeah

they couldn't afford another skin on fortnight that could only afford the

yeah

default skins and they were using it as like a

The

derogatory to

yeah yeah

interesting thing is that there is there is a talk on Morebr gaming, and I can't remember the name of the chap who who does it as a Swedish guy, and he prefaces his conversation, which is, he basically says right for

ah yeah yeah

this. For the duration of this talk, morality is going out of the window. We can't have this conversation Ethically essentially is what he admits to, and one

area

of the things he speaks about is how what a designer should be doing again as his of the things he speaks about is how what a designer should be doing again as his ownner should be doing in Fortnight does do this. In fact, I said that the exemplar of ownner should be doing in Fortnight does do this. In fact, I said that the exemplar of this is daunnt, engender a culture where it's O care this is daunnt, engender a culture where it's O care to not spend money, And

area

that means that every time you do spend money and known it to everyone, make you part of a society of people who have who have spent so much and then introduceed tears and stuff like that, so that this competition um, and make it so abnormal for people to E not spend money, essentially make it so that you are able to exclude those people. Make it so

area

that you are able to um. Um. You know, pressure them into making this purchase, but make it so that your other players are the ones who are applying

who are doing it well that's disgusting isn't it

that pressure, which is an

yeah

absolutely abhorrent. That's basically macke

ah

of Elien,

and

Um.

yeah yeah

And

definitely

and you know it is started again to started in the mobile, uh, environment, Um, And and works worked its way into games like Fortnight, which have huge cosmetic markets. But it becomes exactly as you say. The One of the reasons we have uniforms at schools, or at least us. One of the arguments you were given is so that every one is on the same playing. It is on the same level when it comes to ho, their address and how they're presented. Uh,

yeah yeah

And that means that if a kid isn't able to afford nice clothes, they can't be put in a particular bracket for that Because it school they are wearing the same thing. every out.

yeah definitely which i think which i think's nice and i like it and and sometimes i think when you get that kind of and and now there's there's this whole culture of like pre ordering as well and you get if

no

you pre order ah you get kind of like a skin or

Mhm,

you get kind of like a different type of weapon that you could never get unless you pre order it and what's what i find quite ironic about a lot of those things is like they they sell them as like the best armor plus you can get in the game

Mhm,

when actually in reality what happens is you only are not that skinned when you've like done ninety nine percentage of that game and they'll then you get back to pre order bound and you thinking like i just pre ordered it i gave you my money off from give me the fu skin stray away i don't don't make me wait for it don't you know that's one of the reasons i p and it's that that kind of like whole psychology and the u of kind of like making people buy games and buy into it it's

Mhm,

here's my money and i'll pay you an extra ten quid to get some stuff that you know um mrs smith next door wouldn't get his

it's that stuff's always the stuff's always crap as well like if it's something if

yeah

it's a game where if it's a game where it gives you a boost or something that you'll always pick up a better piece of armor within the first hour anywhere so you never you never even

yes

use it

i know

Um, Didn't out riders do that as well?

yeah

yeah

The

yeah

is quite funny. actually, outll, because that game was also glitious, Fuck at lunch. Um, And

oh god yeah it was one it

one you you could put on a pair of shoes and it made your. For some reason it changed the way you dodge, and you kind of blinked, as the word is in in Dungeons and Dragons of Thing, where you basically teleport a short distance. But the funny thing was you disappear while she moved the distance. Your eyes and teeth didn't adul that you headed as well, I do,

uh

and know of the floting apparitions would move with it. and and yet oh, that was very very amusing and they immediately put them back in the stash where uh, where they were never seen again. and when I went back to them, Lawr and behold, had out leveld the gear within the first half an hour of playing.

he

And

zero

but you have to do that, though, because if you give some one a gear at the beginning of the game, but is too powerful, say that it's end

yeah yeah

game gear. then They you steam roll through the game. And if it's on

hey

mine game, this becomes very very problematic. If it's a single play game, you basically say right, you don't need to play. No, you

yeah

can, just you know, point and Blmb, and this comes to an interesting kind of diotomy Between you know, giving the user stuff that that there want. That's useful. That makes them feel uh, a centre, pride and accomplishment. Um,

yes

but the same time can really, uh, just break the systems that you spent years putting in place. Because it, you know, Um, you've unlocked characters or or abilities of of tools. weapons, whatever That just gives you. give you the Ang goal And and you know we don't play again To watch the credits. So

i i

yeah true

remember one one of the one of my favorite games and like one of my favorite experiences of playing a game ever was marvel versus capcom two and i loved it because i loved capcom and i loved marvel and after

yeah

every couple of fights you would unlock a new character and it would either be a character that you knew from marvel or character that you knew from cap and i had no idea how many they were going to be and who they were and i played that game for hours and hours

yeah

and hours on purely just to unlock more characters and then when you get that character you plays that character and you unlock more and more characters that experience is just completely gone from video games now

oh yeah yeah yeah

like if if there's a character to one log and like cap come do this now you pay for it so like the last

Mhm,

few street fight

yes

games had d l c where you buy new characters and like i remember

yeah

and tech like tech was one of my favorite games to play as well because particularly like tech and tech the fun in that game for me was just unlocking the characters finding out who they were and how they play it and the news in them to unlock more characters i never really declared it to player and it's just nothing like it's something i really miss from games now is i unlocking content or lock in skins because there's no fun in being an adult and being able to buy whatever skin

no

like any skin on fortnight that i want immediately but there's no fun in that there's no like you don't earn it so

does yeah

you don't enjoy it you just and then you pay for it and you like oh the next one right yeah there's another two pound fifty out of my account

yeah, I've got

yeah yeah yeah

this now. No,

yeah yeah

yeah yeah

I think.

definitely

oh yes. oh yeah. the Martle combat came. That came a couple of years ago. Now I can't remember

by yeah

which number it was. It might the latest one unrelease. It was fifty pound. I think sixty percent of the character ruster was locked behind pair walls.

fingal

ah that's frustrating

Something like that.

that's disgusting in it

There was a couple could and locking game. But people didn't

no

know which characters were going to be. You know, available for purchase, What which, which weren't, And it might have even been locked behind season passngers to flight. That and so, people, as you can imagine, were not happy, But the point it. The thing is they did that on week two of its launch it went down by about seventy five percent in price because no one was fucking by in it. And

yeah

and, and I think that's part of the arrogance of the industry in these contexts is that it assumes that the thing you're creating is going to be something that people will throw their money at from now till the end of time, especially if you are operating on a live service model. And furthermore that you can actually deliver content that's new and engaging and fun in this ecosystem. To maintain that that investment. I've not seen it happen once yet successfully.

well

yeah

yeah what's that game that ubisoft brought out that was supposed to be like a a destiny killer and they said there's gonna be this rod map you compare for three for the next three dlcs right now and the were like each dlc was about for equids and they said it's going to uh we've got enough content for the next five years and then

no

just never did it and then we were just like actually

Is that Apex legends,

uh no

oh we could

no no no it was the one where you fly around like iron man but i can't remember

not Airpex, sorry here, M. What was it called? It wasn't Airpex. All Apex is doing all

what it was called

right,

yeah yeah yeah he is actually

but as free to play.

yeah

go.

yeah

Um.

um put uh whilst you try to think of the name but yeah so they just said you know pay for

what was it called?

all this stuff stuff up front and then one day

yeah

just said yeah we're we're not doing that now it's not been successful enough but thanks for the money and then not only that stopped support in the game 'cause it was so unsuccessful

yeah yeah

they stop like update in it and they stop support in like the multiplayer and stuff ridiculous i can't remember

yeah yeah definitely

what it's called but wherever is don't buy it don't buy anything by ubisoft go

No, No even was after. Yeah, that's a

just blanket yeah

good rule.

it reminds me i saw something the other dayline that said if ubisoft had made alden ring ah and he had like the map and had like every single kind of like location kind of like identified on there and like it was just kind of like

towers everywhere that you've got to climb

yeah yeah yeah and it

to unlock them up

just said like it was just like quite funny yeah yeah and i just thought yeah that's about right there's no discovery in there just kind of like there's the map

there is there is lid lid bear

just just go to this point yeah yeah

with all the

yeah it's just a matter of orienteering

enigmatic and out of it yeah just

yeah

walk and you go crack on

just walk which which reminds me um battlefield the latest batibot feld twenty forty two um i was really excited to play there and when i played the demo i thought oh this is this is i um so i threw my money out of it and spent like a hundred quit or something ridiculous amount of money for a game and i spent the first two days just running around dying ah

yeah getting shot by

' the maps

yeah

yeah the maps were so huge there unless you kind of like got a tank or a helicopter stray away and you're one of those lucky people you kind of knew which buttons to mash to get onto those vehicles you have to run for about twenty minutes before kind of like you get there and then you you get there and then somebody just gets a sniper shoot you in the head fucking dead and then you repeat the repeat the kind of like

the ear stood where in fire

whole kind of process again you run kind of light for about twenty minutes and kind of like get there and then somebody's just kind of like what was he what he called just um kind of

camping camping

Camping.

camping that's a come they're just camping there kind of like a corner and then you just bloody take taking your head off again and you just oh for fuck sake i'm

is

just running to die why you want go

most of the most of the complaints that we've had i've just realized they're all about multi player games just play nice

oh yeah yeah

one player offline games by himself

Well, this is it and the game was anthem by the way. But was the name of it?

yeah that's it yeah yeah yeah

The the

yeah yeah yeah

Steing slightp was. And Yeah, there are some people who who really love it, but there are certain. Yeah, there is

oh yeah

a lot wrong with that game and one,

i mean there are some people who love donald trump

the emoji movie

yeah

Oh

yeah

Patrick. start. why did you do

yeah

this to us?

money money mark

No, Well fair enough.

but he yeah yeah

right have we have we discussed stuff enough there was one other thing i want to talk about but i feel like we're overdue for a ux to

no go on

ball announcer

come on let's do it

so it was so i was just thinking about like accessibility and like

oh yeah

actually how how so accessibility is kind of essential for some people's user experience anywhere like there's you know there's no way around it and if you put in good accessibility features into games you're allowing more people to play them but you're also allowing a better experience for people with different needs but one thing that doesn't get like talked about in terms of accessibility that much is like things like so not not like physical and site based accessibility things it's more like

oh

pickups or missing amour or missing like you know like secret customizations or things like or upgrading new weapon and um the last of his two actually offers features that help with anxiety or there's a couple of them there's all automatic pickup so whenever you walk past ammo or items or something your character just reaches out and grabs them without you having to pressed the button and then another one or

nice

another two which is like you can ping items in a room so you can you can turn the function on that you press either left or right analog button in and it does kind of like a sauna and it shows you all the items that you haven't picked up yet and that allows you to like know

yeah

that you've cleared an area properly and that's you know that ties into that um the argument of like get good and stuff and you shouldn't allow these features for people to like quote unquote cheat at the game but it alleviate like those people don't suffer from

ah

the crippling anxiety of not being able to carry on the game until you've made sure you've picked up all the plastic bottles in a room

Yeah, yeah,

oh my god dear yeah oh my god dear yeah

I. I think it's really really important point. this because there is. I mean the video game Com Unity is by large fine, but at its heart there is a rotting contingent of individuals who believe that if someone is after a different experience, what thereafter then they should die or something as as stupid as that,

yeah i mean you're probably not that

yeah

yeah that's probably not an exaggeration there are probably quite

And you know,

do yeah

a reasonable amount

if you,

of people who actually think that

Yeah, if you see some of the

two

victoral that goes around as the F, very hearening, when all I want to do is sit and play again where I'm driving a truck, or or a far

fly the plane for two hours

in farm, in a turnip, or y, y,

yeah

exactly, Um, And one of the. One of the communities around this is Um. the The Darks community. Other what you know of the Fromm software Elden Ring were back. You know. it's like poultry or rhymes were back where we began. Um. and the thing is is from software games are mechanically incredibly difficult. Dying in that game is part of the mechanism and I must admit, as some one who hadn't really played Um the games myself before it did take a certain switch in my attitude to

i'll get fucked

And it's

oh yeah

like if I was

yeah

a surgeon and I was, I was doing something to skip a few steps in the spinal

yeah

surgery I was giving to this child.

air

Then, yeah, I wouldn't just be cheating the child. I'll be cheating myself. I understand in the gravity of that Mormon, but if I just want to be able to to play a game on a on a slightly a a difficulty that to acclimatize to my needs as as a as a user,

eight

you know, and it's It's configurable if I find. it's too easy when I get in the rhythm of it. I just fucking get rid. But yet there are or there's a lot of. Um,

if you're

i didn't get there

talking about like exercise or you know running a race or a weight lifting or something that would apply if you you know

Mhm,

if you

yeah yeah

fede in yourself but ironically that's these people aren't doing that they sat at

yes

home was in aw playing computer games all day

And you know

uh

this

it's

there is. It's a nice idea to be really good at games at the same way. It's a nice idea to be really good at anything. You know. I

yeah

would love to be able to bedge press Um, more than twice or three times my weight. Just so I could say I could do it. The barrier to entry on that is way too high for for the packet of noodles that constitutes my physique, so I'm not ever going to try. Um, and I think the same. You know. The same sort of thing applies here and are a lot of people who want to be good at these games, but a lot of people who quite frankly

yeah

think it was a nice idea, but I've got other more important things to do

uh

yeah yeah

i'm i'm physiologically incapable of playing the dark tolls game like if after after not doing it like the third time i i can't like i i have i have i have i anger issues and you know i've broken i've broken control pads in the past where it's an a dog i don't and i don't care if you think i'm good at this game or not i have absolutely no like competitiveness well not in terms of video games or like sport anywhere like maybe in things that

yeah

actually matter like you know my career or

the career. Yeah,

a or how big my willie is but but but yeah when it comes to like

oh, do.

proving proving myself a video game like couldn't care less really couldn't

but

yeah is

so sorry go.

no i was gonna say it's it's interesting because there's a lot of like e e sports kind you know that's kind of not your big thing and kind of like you know there's a lot of like competition and people being really good at video games but it is like sports isn't it i mean if everyone was amazing at tennis you know

they not that no one would be

would andy mori yeah you know

Yeah, we wouldn't go and watch it because we' all be busy. Play

played

yeah

tennis yeah

exactly yeah you know if everyone was like you know louis hamilton i'd be fucking worried on the streets but but i said we

very good

but you know and if everyone was super good at something then you know you you just make an elitist study then

well, that's exactly. Yeah,

if you don't have those as kind of thus

well yeah there is is a weird elite is a minute

there is.

yeah

I think there's a certain. there's a certain um. Overlap, and you know it is important to consider that sometimes games are designed to be a certain way, now changing the way that that that firm played absolutely fine. It just in my mind, it just makes it a slightly different experience. And if I da't or do want to engage with that, it doesn't matter. Uh, people like different things, Um, I think, and that comes back to you know, like the auto Lote feature saw that, for example,

what's that

uh, aut all loots. Won't you what you described in Uh, the A

all loot sorry i

yeah but they cl

thought he said loop i thought he said loop

No auto lute, Um, And so, for example, that's an option in World of

yeah

Warcraft, Um,

no yeah

And that that is Um, specifically an option Because in that game, unlike Um, Er, Lastivals, a massive ma, ma, multiplyy online game. Uh, half the things you collect you don't want, Um. there's no kind of scarcity. Everything's infinite might be a drop rat and stuff like that, but you throw yourself at it enough you'll get it. Arguably

uh yeah yeah yeah the crap

yeah

Um,

yeah um out riders does that as well

and

yeah

yeah, it does Y. And and there was a game actually where they'd actually integrated that as a auto, looting as a power up by Sp. A game called Foy Bastards, which I

ah yeah

oh yes dear

does it doesn't cyberpunk do it as well i think cyber punk does it as well

heartily recommend. I don't know. To Be honest, I don't know. but um,

oh or breaks down sorry that's crafting it or break yeah

oh yes, yeah, yeah,

no

which i thought

um,

was quite nice as well

an and invoid bastards. Your characters have positive and negative traits. The that's game where dying is part of the mechanics to get a new character

yeah

every time you die. Um,

a second rog like in it but three a first person one

yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. yeah. Um, And so you, you go to these certain ships and you get these uh, d, n. a splicer things that allow you to select an upgrade and one of them is the ability to at all. So what I find interesting is that in some games it's a feature. In some,

yeah

it's an accessibility option, Um, and in some it's a gameplay option for you know that customizability. Uh, and in some some cases it isn't an option. It's something the community has to create itself and often does, which is a testament to the good side of the community.

yeah i think back back in the day and i think um some of the lego games did this and they can you the cheat codes aren't there on your but they'll they built it into the mechanism when you will lock it kind of as the further you go down on to it and you you have to c so many things or look at i like stuff like that and

I. I, yeah, I like that, Um. The

yeah

the Lego games allows you to purchase

ah

cheats and and silly

yeah yeah

things. You are like everyone at a Lego Star Wars ever on broom instead of a light saber, Bloody brilliant. Um, you know.

helium voices and big heads

Yeah, exactly

at the

yeah

i do really like the idea of like something that might be seen as like an inconvenience later being removed by like progress into the game i really like that does um

well, That's

yeah yeah

usually what Progressing Does you know? Um? I. I. I've been thinking about this a lot because I've been examining how many much play too many games. Basically, but if you get something that allows you to uh, upgrade your equipment at certain point, so it makes stuff easier to kill. That's exactly what that is, and I think one of the fundamental. Um, I wouldn't call it problems. I don't want to say the word diotomy again, but the kind of um jokestaposition is that

nice

that accessibility is is about Ca, and this is a reductive definition. We, if we haven't already will doing Popcast accessibility. Um.

yeah

But it's about making things easier for that specific user based on their specific requirements based on their needs, and when you mixed of easier and a video game inevitably reduce the difficulty somewhere, And I think

bye

it's about understanding when that's difficulty by design, and when it's just bad U. ▁x.

yeah odd i mean like

yeah

the difficult game shouldn't be difficult because you would dell a different hand by life than someone else

Yeah,

yeah yeah yeah

yeah, that's very true. Like anything.

true

Like anything,

yeah yeah yeah it's a an quality

yeah yeah

of let me get this right because one's good and one's bad it's in the quality of opportunity not the equality of outcome

nice

very very nice. he said.

yeah that's a quote

it's not my co as a thing it's not my co as a thing

ill ill make a tshirt

yeah

i'll make a t shirt man it cool

yeah that's fine i i mean i'm i'm happy to steal that until the the eventual court case i've already stolen i've already stolen aristotle's trip tick so i can i

Yeah. Yeah,

could steal what whatever that is as well

he yeah yeah cool

I saw something similar, which is which someone says to you. You have the same amount of hours in your day as Beone and the response to that is yes, but not the resources.

yeah yeah molt yeah

The I can't remember a comedian. I have since forgotten the name of the said that,

where molly got got dragged over hot cos for use it in that quote which he didn't even coin but yeah anyway that's a different

nice

podcast right should we do

well

should we do ux to

yeah

bowler then

yeah, right.

hit it

shall we should hit

take it away

i'm good blood yo my fs

we really need to edit that for the next one to anyone

what a lot

listening um anyone listening at home on headphones or a particularly expensive speaker system we

what i like about it

apologize

oh,

why i really like about that if you've kind of like gone be kind of like sleepy half way through the show dies the point

they wake him up a little bit

where you go fuck wa a pi yeah definitely

and the story behind that is quite similar as well which is where

yeah. Yeah,

we'd record we'd been trying and record for for fifty minutes and that was probably the last thing in the day that we were recording uh paul thought i needed to pet myself up a little bit so

so you' fucking did?

in order to take the take the pi yeah take the piece i screamed into the microphone and that's the tick that paul used so that's the that's the story

Yeah? Yeah, yeah, and I forget every time.

yeah i i think it was so so good

behind yeah

I forget every time. and

i yeah i love it every time

you know you know, Have you

i've told that story already

yeah

heard that? uh? yeah, I think

yeah we have we had that let yeah

the last last episode. but I am

all right we just edit it out

it's good

well up the matter. The thing is we get its new users who listen to it every time because they immediately deafened anyway. So

yeah

you know no one can hear this point.

yeah the there is

yes

a as will have been ringing through that

Yeah, yeah, exactly

explanation anyway so they'll just just be coming back down now where at the point where i sing the song singing the ux to bow the song so have ever got any music

yeah.

ah

Oh yes.

nice

I forgot any music.

i you have to make your own music

Oh god, uh,

i've got now yeah how much

I got. I've not got any rhythen.

pump purple

ah

pomp purple pompo laon

good

pto

Okay,

uxb let's th again let's give tom boer a spin puter and

where

inside the hole

yeah yeah

and pull out a little pole what's a pole i don't know maybe it's a word for ux stone bull ah did it

amazing amazed the walton not there

oh, you are diseased of mine, my dear.

i could have been on eight mile

Is that a drug?

uh yes it's

it was

the new it's a new super drug from holland that sweeping the nation

I see? I see.

he put it up the bottom

I call all lives good things.

like a i i could suppose it that's like ait anyway so today's today's ux tombola is dishwashers oh well i said

t the terminal well

it now it now

um f fine go

Well, I didn't hear what you said, so

all right yeah do

now

it gone yeah do it

tom

dishwashers

hello

have we done this one before

I need

interesting

to know. I don't know because

now

I feel like I am going to complain about Rid said, and I do this at least once a week.

first we do the first we do with the explanation as to why the intro to ux tober is so loud and then we talk about rinsed it's that classic friday afternoon conversation yeah go on then go on andron said classic friday afternoon conversation yeah go on then go on andron said

Yes, yeah, yeah, mhm, mhm, Mhm, Mhm,

yeah yeah yeah tell us about rena book

I need to know. I need to know the levels of rens

re

and uh, the dishwasheraalts in my machine, because as far as I'm concerned, those two little holes and one doesn't even look like a whole. It iss very strange.

oh yeah

Just lead, just lead to out of space. It just out of space lead to outer space And there's like tons and tons of dishwasher thoughts being poured into that hole by me every

ah my god yeah

fuck in day

it just goes nowhere

because I just have no idea how much I'm supposed to put in where it's meant to go.

i mean use the tablets that you just put in and then my interaction with the dishwasher for the day is done

Yeah, I should do that. Um, but I need some aid with the vincing part because the

you need something to complain about every week do you sir

there, my de. sorry. did the

one

tablets you use therecause? I just get the cheapest one of can, which probably explains why my dishwasher shit, but um do they have

yeah

life dishwasher cleaning stuff in and know you can get like five in one tablets and

also they said the cle

stuff.

oh yeah

y you're talking about something that cleans the dishwasher

seven one

rather than something you use to clean the dishes

No, No, I don't know if

no yeah you have all this

you're aware of this, Nick. I don't know if you're aware of this, but there are three parts not to the dishwasher but to loding the dishwasher so that it cling clean. You have your dishwasher tablet. Yes, but before that you have

check

your dishwashers salts,

but the fox are

and

check

then you have your Wn. Said,

what the fuck

check

what what the what are you talking about dish

we just we so well actually though to in where we live in manchester the water is so is it

hard hard

soft here so soft

hard

hot

he talking about line

I always learned

so hot

scale we talk about lica

yeah yeah

build up right yeah hard td

well if it's soft. Do you get lime scale or not?

no

but we don' get livescae. Here's a Google dill lill,

now yeah yeah soft and soft yeah we've got we've got soft so we don't need the salt yeah so we don't need to put salts in our dishwashers because of our water

all right i see i see what yeah and that so having

but but but

lived in the north of england where we have beautiful soft water drinkable water i have never encountered

yeah yeah and that's why so yeah yeah yeah and that's where your beard is so silken

but i've never had to put that in more so

and fluffy because

luscious yeah because of all the soft water that i run through it

because the water yeah yeah yeah

So why am I learning this on this fucking podcast? Why is no one told me where?

complete you put in

because

completely superfluous salts into your wash every week

Yeah, Yeah,

yeah yeah yeah yeah

and also all right, I go assume. because I've not done it in about six months Because I don't know whether when I have to. I don. all.

there is a massive problem

i

I just think about it.

i just want i just wanna talk about the fact that you have complete nothing but complete like disrespect for the apartment that you live in you've hammered a nail through a fire door you've illegally

Yes.

you've illegally purchased a car you've you've broken and remade one of the sofas that were provided but

Yes. Yes,

my god will you look after the dishwasher

Well mean, where do you put it like that?

le can we just clarify the car you didn't illegally buy the cat the cat was

No, No, No, I was a pumer.

above board purchase

sorry

yeah it was it was a like some sort of like was this like back streak

I'm keeping an

so

O off in this in this

yeah sorry i didn't i

apartment.

didn't mean to imply that it was like a black market purchase of an illegal like like

yeah

tropical animal what i

like

mean is i always be

light light

in in a in a silly way i was saying that he's not allowed pets whether the domestic are

okay

are endangered

yeah yeah i just don't get that just

Yeah,

just in case

yeah

legal people came

she's a drug mule

but yeah good point though

said,

so your server response stories

but I do. I do feel like I should clean the dishwasher because that's what cleans my dishes.

that is a good point

You know, Whereas you know everything else can go to shit. Ercause. it's not clean in my dishes. Um, and that includes my brothercause.

i was just gonna say

you're not doing. Am I y? fuck?

other than chris

I'm sorry that that's just for Chris. The who? who will probably not listen to this

oh nice um y it's

so are we gonna talk about the ux of diss at any time

yeah like show after we got over got lie

so

Well, the other,

we

i

just

the other, the other puzzle, Eternal Puddle with dishwasher is louding them

oh

and the right

what's the

waycause. There is a right way of louding them,

oh

oh

and the best way I can explain this is. I do it the right way. I don't know what the fock crystal Iusk. I, I

okay

think he lords it from a different room. Anding's just suck him to accident.

pretty good

like like basketball like

give us an example mark what is yeah

This's just your.

does he just put the cups the right way around so they just can't the water

no. No, no, he's not that

oh my god

bad. it's not. He's not

fu

insane.

that's oh that's just given me the rage just even thinking about someone

uh

doing that

The

oh good but

right way to do it is big plates

yes

in one place, bowls in one place, Um one. I think

what

what was an, and then small place in another, and if you got pans that you can fit in between Fa, enough, um, and

there

then at the top you've got your

you

glasses and your mugs. And and we put utensils at one side of that, this is riveting content. Um. And and Chris, Chris, somehow he does those things, but somehow

and

manages only to get about thirty per cent of the dishes in that

hey

I do,

is this might be by design though because he probably thinks like after he's done thirty percentage of putting the dishes in there he thinks can't be fucking asked to do anymore that's my job

if no it's the classic it's the classic it's the classic i don't want to do this i'm gonna do it badly so that they never asked me to do it again

yeah yeah yeah yeah

that that's what it is

and yet to be further that worked. That works for a Ti. I and a nervous breakdown, and

yes

subsequently Chris is now washing himself in the dishwasher. subsequently Chris is now washing himself in the dishwasher. subsequently Chris is now washing himself in the dishwasher.

and murdered him

yeah so i i like i like that but what i'm going what i'm going to argue is the ba there's a bad ux in there straight away because if you supposed to put your glasses up this up all the time i've got so many glasses that don't fuck him fit in the top i have to put them downstairs and then what do i put in that space

you need to uh you say that's a problem

can i put bowls in there is that is that etiquette

you've bought inappropriate glasses for the dishwasher that's what's happening there

yeah

Yeah, you find the car

it's not the dishwasher's fault

yeah it

before the house there pole. before the house there pole.

yeah if you if you

you know

rocked up to your garage in an eighteen ton like eighteen wheel a truck you wouldn't be like s stupid garage too small for my live to rock rock up in a bow

yeah

in seven four seven on your drive you're like well that that garage is inappropriate for my new purchase isn't it

well

bloody builders

when you

you know what

put it like that, Nick. Paul also is like

yeah

the unreasonable one.

and also dick how when have you been around my house to see me try and pop my bowing for in the garage

considerable about skill involved in be.

i just yeah yeah i did a two hour flight sim from london to manchester

taking these taking

and it just

these peripherals a bit too far are you

I'm not. I'm not sure it's appropriate to do a low altitude flight in a Boeing report that they'll piss a lot of people off, Though that,

well that's say exactly why i do it

so

but i i i do feel like the glasses when they when you buy a glass it should fit to the dishwasher it should just fit in that compartment can someone just measure a glass and put it in there

like standardized glasses

yeah yeah yeah don't

I'll make it

like a

so that your dishwasher compartments are ijustible.

so yeah

oh that's effort

god that's a that's a that's an exciting product of it for for mark steel to sell

Yeah, well,

that

a

what I was thinking about, so I think we should make it adjustable like that, But one thing I think we should do cause it is one thing I. I don't do enough is onlded the dishwasher, I onlyload the

that's so much that's someone else's job yeah no if the person who loads the

dishwasher, when the next Lord needs to go in.

dishwasher is not responsible for unloading the dishwasher that's the other house

Oh you a nick, nick you.

mis

but please yeah

Oh, you intoxicating innocence. Youre

yeah yeah

this is my

intoxicating innocence.

this is my socialist utopian dream is that every man should only

Oh yes,

yeah

after either load or

i

unload the dishwasher

Well, that's not how this works, Atick. What it is

i know

is I do the work and that's the end. That's the end of the sentence.

i feel like we've opened the pandora's box of like dishwashers something like

yeah mark has been wearing for years to get this off his chest

Yeah, yes, yes, exactly.

yeah

since we started. so I hope you listening, brother. you fuck.

he was the one that he was the one that put this into the tumble hoping that one day it would be every every time we do ux tumbler is sat there going dishwasher this wash this washer this washer this person

that's good dis you please play

collected

but I think

the time is at hand

a

oh

potential solution to this is Um, a second dishwasher

oh now

you're a mad man

and the in the way this works it. it. I can give you a A. a similar effect. It's exactly the same. so, um, I'm not sure it's actually worth it. but you know you hear you got. we call them Claths, maidens, clothes, horse, um drying rack, Fiar, Claths. And

yeah

no one thing you've got to be careful of is getting a second one of those. Because of universally what will happen is one will go from being uh, drying

you like

your claws to being where you keep your dry clothes. And and then as you take those clothes off, they go into the dishwasher. No, no,

y

don't be going into the washing machine and there and then they go Ono, the empty maiden, and when they there they get, they become dry cloth. And then that new maiden becomes where you keep your dry clothes and you switch between the two, and I suggest that's one possible solution for your

what

dishwashers, Um, you have a su, a second dishwasher, or a dry compartment in your dishwasher, which is just where you keep you dishes. And then

yeah

yououghtn that up. You use your dishes. You put them in the dirty soiled compartment, as will call itcause. It's a horrible word, and all love using it. Um, and then they get cleaned and then they automatically get moved into the the dry compartment and it's just like this aterating system.

you know what that you we joke about this but i actually talked about doing this and i i've been because i i'm the only person that ever deals with the dishwasher

Mhm.

um an ever can stacks it or empties it or does anything th there's a there's a rule in our house if you make a meal you don't have to fill around to the dishwasher that's the rule but it's not ah applied whatsoever

but that's not the reality

more of a guideline.

so cause yeah cause usually when i got day play id just put it straight into the dishwasher everybody else just leaves it somewhere near the dishwasher if

yeah

i'm lucky um yeah some people coco don't even fuck movie it out of the room they left it in

you know what you know what

and i just

you should do is just stop making them food and that problem will solve itself

Yeah, yeah, one way or the other

yeah

that problem

yeah

will resolve itself, might resolve itself

yeah

with a corre. case.

yeah

yeah yeah

Still a resolution.

yeah yeah yeah i went i went down the if anyone comes around now for kind of food it's paper plates i'm not doing dishes

oh yeah yeah my i i admit who actually did that i moved into an apartment and

for lads of we yeah

bought paper plates so that they never had to wash up and he thought it was great but it was just

I can.

living like a giant toddler

I've thought about that,

tick for the environment

but I've got standards like I can't Can't do that

ah this was this was years ago this is before caring about the environment became cool

yeah

well For places. You can get one set made out of recycled material. Mean you

and but yeah yeah true

can recycle them. What is the? you know? one thing people don't realise? Interest, in fact, is that it takes as much energy to make one talk Ba, as it does make ten thousand plastic bags

i can imagine yeah

or a thousand.

amazing

It's at least a thousand.

yeah yeah

probably more than. but

yeah

Um, so Yeah, which ones? Um, so Yeah, which ones? which ones the I want to use? You know.

and yeah

That's a different. The u. ▁. a climate change.

it would that that could be a y yeah the u x u x of tote banks can we put that one in the machine

Yeah, Yeah, we can

yeah i love it

docause. I' got some somewhere.

did

Um.

we get

yeah

a product then we need something that

i i think it's the duel dishwasher that

like the empties

Yeah,

automatically and just becomes a cupboard

Mhm,

for for flights and and

oh oh is

just

that what you were saying so basically

yeah. yeah.

your your

yeah yeah

crockery crockery cupboard moves across the kitchen every week genius

well,

that's genius

well no no it's still there but you've just got you've just got two dishwashers

no i'm saying no like yeah but the crockery cupboard moves from this dishwasher to

glued together essentially

that dishwasher

Mhm, yeah, yeah, yeah.

yeah you put dead

effectively effectively moving around the room

yeah

Mhm. yeah, yeah,

you put dirty plates in one cupboard take clean plates have another jobs dump

Mhm. yeah. yeah,

that that's the dream

and it also, And uh, what's her name? is it? Mary?

wait what

Condor, the lady who thinks we should all live in shoe boxes. Um, she, She

yeah

loved this as well, because it. it limits the amount of Um crockery can on to how much you can fit in a dishwasher.

yeah

ha okay yeah i'm down with that let's do it

i like it

How, what

take it w

gone yeah i feel like there was gonna be

you? How can you have any questions about any of this? It's a flawless system.

it's absolutely flawless yeah

i like it yeah

if i if i had any questions i would be the unreasonable one