Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds.
And Donald Trump says he's much better looking than Vice President Harris. The dementia is real, my friends, with such an amazing show for you today, White House Communications Director Ben la Bolt stopped by to talk to us about the Biden Administration's continued wins for the American people. That will be joined by MSNBC Steve Bennett to talk his new book Mystery of Truth, Democracy, Reality, and the Republicans
War on the recent past. But first we have the host of the Enemy's List, the Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson.
Hello, Rick Wilson, welcome back to.
You.
Sound like you are very good WiFi.
Molly. I'm in a place that Hillbilly Elgy was meant to truly capture the steerdous and at the moment that would be a.
Perfect So you are in jd Vanceland known as sag Harbor. Let us talk about what it is that is going on. This week was another week of Democrats delighted by their nominees, their presumptive nominees vice presidential candidate, and Republicans.
Not so much.
All the swipboat bullshit on Tim Walls is falling short, and by falling short, I mean completely ineffective. They threw everything they had at the guy in an attempt to swip boat off. It didn't work. And I'll tell you, I think it's really indicative of where the two parties are at right now. That Tim Wallas is touring with the Vice President, they are getting record crowds. He's out on his own doing some touring now too, is hitting record crowds. The problem for the other team is twofold.
They're trying to attack him on stolen valor, which is a lie. And secondly, they forgot that they work for. You know, as I like to call him, Colonel Pussy von bones Purs. You know, Donald Trump is a cheating line draft dodger. When it's ay, eight thousand men were dying in Vietnam, Donald Trump was chasing straight plus see the New York City. They should have known from the jump this was going to bite them on the ass.
And it has. The second thing that is I think very telling and very important in this equation is that JD. Vance continues to say he's underperforming. Would put it like, so far beyond the realm of exaggeration. This guy is a hot mess. He is unpopular, His numbers are terrible. He's getting less popular as people get to know him better. Every day some new weird podcast or some new weird
drip comes out. I mean, and the fact that this is the guy who first went to war with women who own cats, and now is it war with postmenopausal women. I mean, what could go with a campaign based on that brilliant strategy? He's given deep pole and he's not getting out of it.
Yeah.
One of the things that Democrats have learned from Trump is that you can give voters a permission structure to vote for someone who wouldn't necessarily be your candidate. And the person who gave evangelicals the permission to do that was one so very interesting in my mind. Right now, Billy Graham's granddaughter is joining evangelicals for Harris quotes Isaiah to black Trump supporters.
Does this work? So? Explain to us?
Well, I think what you're seeing with evangelicals is there has been a faction of the evangelical movement that has always had a hesitation about Trump. They made that compromise by and large because their leadership told them to. Because
their leadership are absolutely unethical and moral, irreligious idolaters. And there's always been a concern that Donald Trump was too much, that he was a rapist, an adulterer, a reprobate, a degenerate, a criminal, all those things, and they never loved it, but they thought, oh, we must have our Cyrus and God will direct him. Well, it does not seem much
like God is directing Donald Trump lately. Now. I don't believe that Donald Trump will lose more than five or ten percent of the evangelical vote this time form where he was last time. But even that is an uake. Even that is a tidal weight, That is a tsunami that is going to come down and absolulutely smack him in the face. As Vice President, Harris has solidified the Democratic base, even the drifting elements of that. African American
men in spanning are you to come back? Younger voters are were past whatever the young voter hesitation over Gaza attached to Joe Biden was, it's not displaying in the same way with her. They're still out there, but it's not at the same scale. So we've seen baby boomers start to drift towards Harris. Now, Trump will not lose baby boomers. He will not lose them by a majordia
or even a polorality. But she is going to pick off more and more of these subgroups that are going to allow her to, I think, put together a winning coalition. What does Trump have right now? He is trying desperately to put his campaign back together. If it's fallen apart, it is in chaos. You brought back Corey fucking Leewood and Dowski. If that's the solution, I don't want to know what the problem is.
What Corey is like an emotional supporter staffer right, Yeah, for sure.
And look he can't get Hope picks back. She won't come back. But so Corey's the next best thing. What it means, though, is he now supplanted christ Losivita and Susie Wiles. He is now the campaign chairman. They now report to him. Antonio the pollster, they've now work for him in this organization. And as you recall, Coreylewood Newsie's beautifully smooth corporate management style is so accommodating and so open to different voices and opinions that he shouldn't be
screaming much at all during the day. I mean it surely send to twelve hours a day of livid, throat throbbing, eyes bulging, screeching at people. And of course the HR Department's firing up for Corey's return to They'll keep that very busy.
How do you think this goes? Where does this go next?
Trump trying a new strategy this week with these three media availabilities, and to the media's credit, a lot of them did write the right headlines and say Trump lied about this light, about that light, about this light, about that, but a lot of them still had it on their air for the duration of these press conferences, which were very similar and all full of lives, and as you pointed out the other day, that they were nothing for
twenty sixteen. Just the spectacle of Trump doing an event is not necessarily the definition of an event that deserves to have live, uninterrupted, unedited, unfact checked coverage. Now I don't think he has many more of those. And then he's been told by his avenue, you must focus on policy. You must go out and talk about inflation, policy and policy. You know, you and I both know that Donald Trump has no million there, sus stay that shit for your
like by more minutes. So he's going to continue to act badly. He's trying to now concern troll the media by saying, why won't she do interviews? Is she too scared? And look, the Harris campaign has no fucking necessity to do interviews right now. They should keep winning. They should go out and keep racing along and doing the big things.
Do what's working right now, which is going out and holding massive enthusiastic rallies that are bringing people into the Democratic bold again, that are exciting voters and for right now. You know, look, what's the worst thing they're going to do? Give Donald Trump free at her time. They're going to do that any I think she's got a really good argument right now to just do what she's doing.
One of the things that I'm struck by is it feels like Trump keeps having the same fights with everyone. Why won't Joe Biden do a press conference? Why won't Joe Biden do this? And now he's using these same attacks on Harris.
It fits the one big broad thing about Trump right now. He's so fucking boring. Okay, he's boring. It's the same. You see press conferences, I have his seeing complaints. I went by the it's all the same bullshit over and over again.
And all of.
This is like, to my mind, why he's fallen off the cliff. He's not exciting right now, he's not interesting right now. He has become dull. He's become this cumbersome, dull character. At this point, it's really large for me to see how he convinces the media to cover things as he once did, and he once was extremely effective at it. You and I both know he was once extremely good at that. He's not that good at this anymore. He's really fallen off the cliff well.
And I also think the novelty of him was people didn't know how to cover him eight years ago.
But now he can't drive a news cycle the way he used to.
That's exactly right, Molly. He doesn't have the same juice that he had too. I'm going to give somebody a nickname and then they'll write stories for four days that I they have JEBB low energy Jeb. He's twenties of a different versions like combulla combula, and none of it's sticking. Even the right wing media weirdos aren't sticking with it, even the right wing like cress Art following law and there's no BURGI of what's Brandon.
Yeah, it does seem like that's right, but it's also like part of Trump and trump Asm.
Was its newness and now it's.
Just the same recycled material again and again, and I think voters are bored with it.
Now.
Let me ask you what should Harris do now?
She should go and have a absolutely bang up convention and treat that convention like a coordination. Treat that convention as something that continues to be happy but be unifying. The case against Trump is the case against Trump, and
she's going to make it adequately and passionately. The thing she should do is work off of the strengths that she has now established, work off of the impressions she has now built, work off of the elevation she's now gained in the campaign, to come out of this race, to come out of this moment at the convention with a sganic momentousm and a sense that Democrats understand. Republicans do not ownism. They don't own the American flag, they don't own love of country, they don't own the ideas
of freedom or liberty. She should be able passionate advocate for the things that the authoritarian right hates so much, and a lot of the things they hate are the principles they used to hold before Trump. That's how she can come out of this individual with a big win.
Yeah, I think that's right, and I think that's a really good point.
Republicans jumping on Tim Walls for saying that he doesn't like spices in his tacos.
Listen, if you want a definition of flailing, the party that thinks that mayonnaise is the peak of all condiments could just fuck off. This is a desperate critique by weird people to take a normal Midwestern guy and try to other and alienate him from ordinary Americans. It's just sad at this point. I mean, it's so desperate, it's such a flail. It's such a like horrible, endless grind of we got him, now, we're gonna get Tim Walls now. You know it just doesn't work. Again, there's nothing weirder
than JD. Vanks. If they think not eating spices in your tacos is weird, how about having a secret drag history. We forgot to teach it. You know, especially if you're in a party of Christian notionalists, to pay people who
do drag. I think that the structure of the Trump campaign in these like trolling attempts that he doesn't need spicy food, the dumbness of it is going to get exaggerated because remember Coryly when Dowsi came back to the campaign, but he also brought back like five of these weirdo internet troll in cellt goons who honestly think like I got an article on Breitbart and a meme with Keepy of the Frog about Joe Biden Win. They're fucking morons and they're going to continue to be fucking morons. But
they will continue to say the stupidest shit. And it's like, have you met Donald Trump? Have you met JD. Vance? If you think you're that you're going to be able to other and turn them into the aliens versus Donald Trump and JD. Fucking Vance, get out of here.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm me And I think that's right, And I think that's a really good point.
Rick Wilson, we are going on tour.
We are going on tour, people, and it is going to be exciting. I want you to know I work blue. So if you guys want to see Molly and I get on stage talk about the craziness of this world right now, the insanity of this campaign, the bizarre future that is ahead of us if we don't win this thing, you should come out and visit us. We're going to be on the West coast, we're going to be on the East coast, and we're going to be in the beautiful American Midwest. Hold of s food that's not too spicy.
I'm excited about it, Mollie. I'm just I'm so jazzed. It's crazy.
Yes, everywhere, here, there, nowhere, we will be there.
It's like Surpacilea for smart people.
That's right, except without the costumes.
I'm wearing a costume and I'm doing more work and gymnastics.
See, he's always like this.
I am who I am.
Thank you for joining us.
Rick Wilson, thank you. We have even more tour dates for you. Did you know the Lincoln Projects. Rick Wilson, the Fast Politics, Mali jug Faster heading out on tour to bring you night of laughs for our dark political landscape. Join us on August twenty sixth at San Francisco at the Swedish American Hall or in la on August twenty seventh at the Region Theater. Then we're headed to the Midwest and we'll be at the Vivarium in Milwaukee on the twenty first of September, and on the twenty second,
we'll be in Chicago at City Winery. Then we're going to hit the East coast. On September thirtieth, we'll be in Boston at Arts at the Armory. On the first of October, we'll be Infilliate City Winery, and then DC on the second at the Miracle Theater. And today we just announced that we'll be in New York on the fourteenth of October at City Winery. If you need to laugh as we get through this election and hopefully never hear from a guy who lives in a golf club again,
we got you covered. Join us in our surprise guests to help you laugh instead of cry your way through this election season and give you the inside analysis of what's really going on right now. Buy your tickets now by heading to Politics as Unusual dot bio. That's Politics as Unusual dot bio. Ben ler Bolt is White House Communications Director.
Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics Band, The Ball.
Great to be here. Thanks for having me, Molly.
We're going to talk about Joe Biden and what he is up to in his senior spring curing cancer. Let's start with the cancer moonshot. I listened to his remarks, super interesting, big grants.
Let's talk about it.
Yeah.
Well, remember, look, the President has had a fifty year career in public service, and he knows that when we set our mind to big things as Americans and use the tools of government, that anything is possible. And so the cancer moonshot is something he came up with when he was Vice presidents near and dear to his and the First Lady's hearts. Their famili has been touched by cancers, as many American families across the country. So this is
part of his unity agenda. Thinks that all Americans should be able to get behind, which is figuring out how we cut in half answer rate in the United States
over the next couple of decades. And so he went down to New Orleans this week with the First Lady and talked about new tools for precision medicine and surgery where you can actually create a three D rendering of a person's body and figure out exactly where and how to surgically remove cancer, which could have a big impact on people's lives because even if you get some of these things just a millimeter off, you could significantly impact
the patient and their mobility and a bunch of other things. So that's just one big thing that the PRICES has focused on running through the take here over the next five months and making as big of an impact as possible.
So it's a couple grants to different hospitals, but it's also getting better at how cancer is removed.
Can you talk about that?
This is specific to the Precision Surgical Intervention Program. There are eight awardies university hospital systems that will find better ways to prevent, detect, and treat cancer. And this is very specific to surgery since in most cancer cases you actually have to go in and physically remove by the cancer. So it's going to help doctors to determine exactly where it is, exactly, how to visualize it within the body and allow more precise treatment.
The thing I so have been really struck by is how seamlessly the Biden campaign has become the Harris campaign. Can you talk about that, because I don't know she's had this meteoric rollout. But some of that has been because of this continuity and if we look at history, like Lyndon Johnson, Biden really has set the table for her in a white Can you talk about that absolutely?
Look, I mean, first and most importantly, the Vice president has been an incredible governing partner to the President throughout the administration, and so all the major challenges that we've overcome, from getting out of a once in a century pandemic to overcoming an economic crisis where the economy was flat on its back. Now it's the strongest in the world, defending democracy after January sixth, all these big things that the administration has done that the President and the Vice
president have done together. She's the last person in the room when he makes big decisions. And so the campaign was built in the same way it was built over the course of the past year and a half. It's a diverse, multi generational, talented team. It's literally the best people across the Democratic Party, a great grassroots organization, and
all the key battleground states across the country. And when the President made a courageous decision to step aside in order to unite the party and endorse the Vice President.
There's been this incredible response across the country, and the campaign acted very quickly to merge teams, to create compelling content, to use the organizing capacity that had been built on the ground to build these incredible rallies, and so in some ways it doesn't have a lot of historic precedent, but I think it's a testament to the talent of the team that the President the Vice president built together and just the collegial relationship that exists within the White
House teams and the campaign. I think we'll look back on that campaigns need to be built for challenges and to be nimble.
This one certainly was.
But also they have really good memes. I know this is an annoying question, but did they sort of cool meme crowd to get to like take over when Hars became the nominee.
I think, Look, I think the cool meme crowd has always been a part of the campaign, and communicating on digital in a way that resonated with the culture I think has been something they were always focused on. I mean, I think these are the same people who came up with dark branded and all the sorts of fun with the President's online personality. But I think, Look, I think there's been incredible energy. I think people woke up and
tuned into the election over the past few months. If the pieces that the team weighed in place had any impact, that's it. And so everybody was tuned in for these big dramatic moments in the campaign, and when the president endris the vice president, there was this moment that didn't
have a ton of historic precedent. There's just been an online explosion and Trump had been dominating parts of that conversation and some of the conversation across the platforms, and I think that's really shifted back into our column at this point. So it's been incredible to see it's been enabled and all this energy has been captured by a team that is way younger and cooler and more in touch with the culture than I am. But I think
they've been really strategic about how they've deployed it. And now the share of voice online it's just so much more about the vice President's overwhelmingly positive, and the conversation about Trump is really turning negative online as people tune in.
Yeah, tell me what his plan is for Monday, and a little bit about what he's hoping to sort of get out there.
Well.
Absolutely, First of all, on Monday, there will be a significant portion of the programming that is dedicated to just lifting up the President and the administration's accomplishments and looking
back over the course of the past four years. So you know, miillers such as the President the Vice President, instead of just accepting trickle down economics like a lot of administrations, have built the economy from the bottom up, in the middle out, empowered the middle class, and now their policies have led to the smallest racial wealth gap, we've ever seen, the lowest average unemployment of any administration in fifty years. Sixteen million jobs created, nineteen million new
businesses started. I mean, we could go on and on with the statistics all day, but I think it really laid the groundwork for the future because the jobs, the construction jobs that are happening, the manufacturing jobs that are happening, with manufacturing coming back to the US. Now, the President planted the seeds that are beginning to sprout. But we'll create this incredible, roaring economy over the decades to come. And so I think that will be a piece of
the programming. He's going to make a forceful case to elect the vice president and Governor Walls. The president defended democracy. That's really been the signature piece of his administration over the past several years and why he ran the last time around. Donald Trump is saying he would be a dictator on day one and that he terminate the constitution. And the President is going to ask the country to stand up and defend democracy again in November, and you know,
so we'll run across the gamut. But there are all sorts of issues, whether it's the economy we just talked about, whether it's protecting social security and medicare, whether it's standing up for a democratic Europe against Putin. There are all
sorts of issues to be discover. So I think he'll both summarize everything that's happened, all the progress that we've been made since we came out of that once in a century pandemic, but at the same time look forward on how we need to continue our progress by electing Vice President Harrons.
One of the things that the mainstream media has been super pissy about has been feeling.
Like the campaign has kind of gone around them. We've seen that with.
Videos, We've seen that with you know, just a certain amount of Like social media makes it so that people can just talk to other people without there's no limit to what people can do, but we do know that, like the free press is important a democracy.
How do you thread that needle? I think the Vice president is threading it. The most important perative in a campaign, especially a campaign where you have limited time like this campaign does, is getting out and talking to voters in battlegrat states, and she's been doing that, and rally setting she's been doing that, or retail settings. Winning their votes is the most important thing and frankly the only objective of a campaign. The communications strategy should be in service
of that goal. And she's done all sorts of communications over the past year. She's traveled with anchors from the network news, She's talked to digital influencers and creators. She's answered questions from the White House Press Corps. She takes questions most weeks from the press on the road. She said she'll do an interview with a classic news outlet sometime this month. She's going to debate Donald Trump on ABC News next month. They'd said that they'll do another debate.
So this notion that she won't answer questions just isn't true. She's been doing it all year. I think people use the fracturing of the media and the fact that a lot of people just because there's so much going on, so many outlets, so much information. You know, the average person doesn't see everything you're doing. So we got a little bit of this about the president, but he did fifty interviews this year, and you may not know it unless I shared that statistic. But it's just harder to
break through these days. I think the Trunk campaign is trying to say she needs to hold a press conference and sit down with the journalist every day because they're losing right now, and so they're trying to disrupt the narrative somehow, and so they're trying to determine the Harris Walls for present campaign for them. But that's not what
the campaign should focus on. The campaign should focus on reaching voters and battleground states with their vision, and that's absolute what she's been doing every day.
Yeah, I think that's right.
One of the things, like always when I would write about this administration, or like when I would interview people about it, the thing that everyone would always say was like, yeah, they're doing all this good policy, but nobody knows because nobody's paying attention, or it's hard for them to get credit for it. How frustrating is it for you? There's so much good policy, right, We've had this economic soft landing so far, which is kind of amazing, better than
any other of these wealthy countries. It must be strange to watch now are being criticized for getting credit.
I guess I don't know.
I mean, for you know, the criticism is she doesn't have enough policy. But everything that God is here is policy.
Right.
She's giving a major economic address focused on lower and costs and creating jobs and all sorts of other things. She talks about policy to some extent nearly every day. Look, I think people around the world went through a tough period coming out of the pandemic. You've seen that here in this country, and you've seen that in terms of perceptions of leaders and economies around the world, and now
perceptions of the economy are improving. Wages of outpaced inflation for about two years, an incredible amount of jobs have been created, and businesses have been started, and factories are getting off the ground, and everything from semiconductors to clean energy, and given the fractured media ecosystem, given that people tend to get their information and silos and the more partisan perceptions of things nowadays, in addition to the fact that
we went through this major global crisis that does have an impact on perceptions, and so we just need to do the work both at high profile moments like the convention, but also over the course of the next five or six months, as the Presence closing out his term of getting out there and continuing to talk to people about the factories that are being built in their towns after years of jobs being shipped overseas, like the big prescription
drug announcement this week that Medicare can finally negotiate down the cost of prescription drugs, the clean energy revolution that's going to happen in this country. We're in the beginning stages of all of these things, and so we're going to need to keep communicating about them every place we can get to and on every platform.
What would you say?
The message has been from Biden to his campaign staff about Harris.
That she's been an incredible governing partner, that he has full confidence in her. He believes she's smart, he believes she's tough, he believes that she will play a critical role in defending our democracy and making sure the legacy is secure in terms of an economy that protects middle class families, in terms of a society in which individual liberties and freedoms are protected. If your women should be entitled to reproductive rights, gay people should be free from discrimination,
you can go down the lists. Parents should be able to help inform what books their children read instead of ideological governors. I mean, go down the list. The Republican Party is certainly no longer the party of freedom, so there's big issues at stake. The President is ready to hit the trail and keep going out to battleground states
and campaign for the ticket. But the most effective thing he can do is also to just do his job and deliver big things like he did in terms of getting detained Americans home, getting the cost of prescription drugs down, getting more factories and roads and bridges built. You know he wants to do. He's very eager to do as much as he can do over the next five months to finish the job.
Strong.
When I think about the reporting about that hostage deal that was so complicated, involved so many different countries, was kept completely under wraps do you ever think about how he got that done and he learned he was getting it done after he decided to drop out. I mean, do you you know there's certain level of selflessness.
Here that seems like very unusual in American politics.
Absolutely.
Look, I think this president is the only president who could have gotten a deal that complex and done. He did it because he had these international relationships with leaders that he developed over the course of five decades. He believes that all politics, domestic and globals personal. So he's developed a personal relationship with all these people in that relationship with German chancer Schultz, for example, was very important
to get this done. He was on the phone with the Slovenian Prime minister getting this deal done an hour before he dropped out of the race and endorsed the vice president. So his ability to multitask and to do all these things behind the scenes. By the way, as Republicans are said, they are all over online asking where's shoe Biden. In fact, they were doing it the day that an hour later he walked out and announced this.
So that is who he is.
He's constantly leading and managing complex situations, and he's done so domestically he's done so globally, I think history will look very very kindly on this president and this presidency and everything he's been able to get done.
Yeah, a really good point. Thank you, Ben Lebalt.
Thanks Wally talks in.
Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how awful Trump's second term could be? Well, so are we, which is why we teamed up with iHeart to make a limited series with the experts on what a disaster twenty twenty five would be for America's future. Right now, we have just released the final episode of this five
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Steve Bettt is an MSMBC contributor and the producer of The Rachel Maddow Show, the author of Ministry of Truth, Democracy, Reality, and the Republicans were on the recent past.
Welcome to Fast Politics, Steve.
Thank you, Belli.
It's good to be here, delighted to have you.
So I want you to give us two minutes on your kind of character arc, where you came from, what you do now, and how you got Well.
That's a good question. I started in journalism shortly after going to grad school and GW I worked at a small trade publication studied the religious right for many years. From there, I started my own independent bloc called the Carver Bager Report in two thousand and three, which seems like yesterday but was actually more than two decades ago.
From there, I got picked up with the Washington Monthly and kind of cultivated a larger online audience, and in time I got picked up by a certain someone at the MSNBC by the name of Rachel Meta. I've been with her now for twelve twelve and a half years, and I'm not planning to go anywhere anytime soon.
So you were, I don't want to say, one of the first, because they were people doing this in the nineties, but there weren't that many, so you.
Were sort of an early blog I was.
There were a handful of us that were early adopters in terms of developing online audiences. Josh Marshall, Kevin drum marcos me A Trios. There were a handful of us who kind of pioneers is probably an overstatement, but we were the first ones into the pool, and we were thrilled. Of course, when the industry grew and became a powerful force, I think, and politics for a good long while, and then of course social media came along and the whole
blog enterprise evolved with it. So yeah, I've been here. I've been around long enough to see all these evolutions and all these permutations, and it's been a out of fun.
I'm curious if you could just for a minute explain to us sort of how we got here. You know, this week we had Musk interview in Trump on X. I come from magazines in the nineties, so for me, it's fair. I'm very conflicted because I love that we don't have gatekeepers, and I think gatekeepers are bad and there's much less of a barrier to entry, which makes
me excited. But in the same sense, I see our industry, especially when it comes to local news like decimated, and my anxiety has always been the tech companies got rich off our free content. So if you can make me feel better about this, since every podcast is now therapy for.
Me, I would love it.
I wish I could make you feel better about this. In all candor, I share your concerns. I think that there is a systemic problem that we're all dealing with right now. It is industrywide. It is affecting a great too many outlets. One of the biggest fears about democracy, frankly, is that disappearance of local newspapers and local daily and how they are just being deestimated every year. It seems to be getting worse because it is getting worse. It's
not affecting the tech bros. It's affecting local news organizations and more importantly, those who rely on local news organizations. And so you know, I don't want to make you feel worse, Yes, please don't, But at the same time, might think that your concerns are well grounded because they're reality based. This is something that this is a problem that is affecting everyone, and the solution has not yet come into focus.
I want to get to this book, The Ministry of Truth, Democracy, Reality, and the Republicans War on the recent past. But I just am curious you blogged since two thousand and three, right or before that? Again, I think nu Gingrid. I mean there are a couple of like touch points where a Republicans started to just change the rules, nuke gingrich Richard Nixon.
But can you sort of in the very recent past?
And the very recent past is like an obsession of mine because I come from the world of Gorbidal, so I do consider us to be the United States of Amnesia. And often you'll be on a panel and you'll say, like, what happened in the last election, and never it'll be like, oh, right, the last election, Like we just don't even think two years ago? So is this new? Have we always thought like this?
I do think that there has always been an American tradition, a short attention span where people in positions of authority, and frankly for the audiences in general public rank and file audiences. I think that it is easy to be forward thinking, and that temptation, that attitude lends itself to forgetting about the recent past, forget the passage of generations past,
which is a whole other problem. People don't necessarily know their history in terms of things that happened before their lifetime. But you're right, it is frustrating to see people who have blank stares when we reference things from the Bush Cheney era as it's a bygone era from our parents. It's not. It's twenty first century, and yet those events of that era have been largely forgotten and the lessons along with them. It is frustrating. But my book specifically
focuses on Trump era. But you're right, this is not unique to our era.
Right, What is this staunch refusal to learn from the past.
I wish I had a better sense of that. I wish I knew why. You know, it's easy to diagnose the ailment, and it's harder to necessarily come to terms with what caused the ailment. I think that in general, there has been a in the American tradition, there has been a detachment from politics. I think that it was in some respects that designed to be that way. In a republican lower case, our republican from of government.
You know that the.
Electorate hires people to do the job of governing and then they go about their business. And so I think that model lends itself to having people say, well, others are taking care of these things. I don't necessarily have to focus on them all. Allan said, focus my energies
on family and community and churches and so forth. And while I understand that temptation and people have busy lives and they have responsibilities at work at home, I would encourage more people, however, to realize that democracies in their hands, and that the more they are engaged in current events and the more they keep up on current events in the recent past, the better off they'll be, the better off the country will be.
Yeah, can you talk to us about what you think sort of the moment was when you realized that, because I think we all have a moment where we realized that what Trump was going to do was going to fray American democracy in profound and serious ways.
For me personally, it came during the twenty sixteen election when he appealed to Russia to find Hillary Clinton's emails. I mean, obviously to the twenty sixteen race had a series of touchdowns that were of incredible importance that let
the public know what was going to happen. But that to me stands out as unique because this was the first time in American history we had a major party presidential nominee reaching out to a foreign adversary and encouraging them to get engaged in our effective process, but to specifically engage in an espionage campaign against the rival major party nominee, which is unprecedented, It is radical, it was dangerous, and it suggested that when it came to the basics
of American governance, in American politics, this guy was operating outside the norm, outside the rules. He was writing new rules which are completely itnoledge with the American tradition. And so obviously that's one of many times. But you know, in terms of your question, what stands out that to me was a turning point, That was the signal that was unmistakable that this was something new.
Yeah, I'm curious if you could talk about Fox News, because in twenty sixteen, Fox News and also right wing radio more generally, we're huge turnout drivers. It seems their influences diminished. But I am basing that only on vibes, So tell me what you think and anything else about that right wing media ecosystem.
Sure.
Well, you know, in my book, one of the things I talk about is that no one person can rewrite history by himself or herself. It's impossible. I think that anyone in position of authority will need to rely on partners in order to fully and successfully con the public. And I think that when it comes to Trump and the Republican contemporary Republican Party, those partners are found at Fox, They're found in conservative media, they're can founded in conservative radio,
and they are working hand in glove. They have forged a partnership. I take your point about the vibe suggesting that maybe they're not quite as influential as they once were, but I think that speaks to the fact the lines between the party and these outlets has been largely blurred to the point of non existence. They are effectively one and the same. And with that in mind, I think that the Republican apparatus and the conservative media apparatus are
really the same thing. We're talking about one entity, and as those lines get blurry, they're able to succeed with greater cohesion because they're all on the same page. Because they are all in the same page.
So you talk about this frantic gaslighting campaign, we write the stories that they've uncovered the last several years. One of the ones that makes me think of is like Russia, gay right, Trump calls it Russia, Russia, Russia, right, and you know the steel Valassier helped muddy the waters and make this story.
But talk to me about that.
I'm glad you brought this up because it's actually my favorite chapter in the book because for me, when we talk about the success of the war in the recent past, the success that every op begins have had, this to me stands out is unique because they've had more success
on this than anything else. I think at this point in American politics in twenty twenty four, the Rink and fowlery Oorgan base considers the Russia scandal not only to be wrong, but to be ridiculous as far as they're They considered to be completely discredited to the point of comedy. And yet if we look at the Mola report, we look at the Republican led Senate Intelligence Committee report, we know a handful of certain things to be true. We
know that the Trump campaign sought Russian assistance. We know that the Trump campaign received Russian assistance, the Trump campaign benefited from Russian assistance. We know that the Trump campaign lied about Russian assistants. And we also know that the Trump political operation obstructed the investigation once investigators are pursuing these lines of inquiry. Whether or not that constitutes collusion is almost irrelevant, because collusion is a political term, not
a legal term. But what we know for certain is that those five facts that I just pointed to, they have been uncontested, They are the truth. They have been documented extensively, not only by Robert Mueller, who was a Republican, but also by the Senate Intelligence Committee while I was chaired by Republican leadership. And so with that in mind, it is frustrating it has so many people be utterly convinced that the Russian scandal isn't real because we know better, as I document in the book.
Yeah, I wonder if you can sort of talk about Bill Barr's part in this scandal, because I think he ran an incredible cover campaign.
He did indeed, in fact, he was frustratingly successful at it. When the Muller report first came out, which is to say, and they first arrived on Bill Barr's desk, we didn't necessarily see the document. What we saw was a four page summary from Bill are telling us what Robert Muller had to say. And then he had a press conference in which Bill Barr presented Mueller's findings as if serving
as a role as a gatekeeper. And for quite a while, all we had to go on, and I say we meaning people in the United States, people of the public, all we had to go on was Bill Barr's word about what Robert Mueller found, and that established certain narratives. Now those narratives were wrong and they were misleading. In fact, a federal judge later chastised from ourtorney jail Bill Barr for having misled the public so dramatically on these things,
on these facts. But nevertheless, I think that Barr's role in this had an incredible impact on laying the groundwork for this larger deception.
Yeah, clearly it worked really well. If nothing else, like he was able to get it to work. Do you think that there is a way out of Trump is?
I do, But it's not easy. I think that in general, political science history tells us that parties change when voters tell them that they have to change. Let's say hypothetically that Kamala Harris is elected in the fall, Well, that'd be enough. Probably not, but it'll start the process. I think that the more Republicans lose, the more they realize that their quests for power will tell them they'll have no choice to start adapting.
That.
More that trump Ism is a losing proposition for GOP leaders, the more eager they'll be to abandon it. And you know, I've seen many joke about the fact that Republican Party will rise from the ashes. But first we need some ashes, and that won't happen until they lose a lot. Twenty twenty four would be important, but so would be twenty twenty six, equally important, twenty twenty eight, and so on.
There has to be a series of defeats for them to realize, no weight, they're on the wrong track here, and so to me, I think that ultimately all of this power is back where it belongs, which is in voters' hands, and if they act accordingly, the Republican Party will change and trumpsm will die.
David from once told me that you have to lose three elections in order for a party to just completely rethink things.
It's been more than three.
Well, in a way, yes, I mean we have twenty sixteen when Trump is successful. One parence, the twenty eighteen midterms went pretty well for Democrats. Twenty twenty went pretty well for Democrats, although down ballot less, so twenty twenty two was a largely mixed bag, but pretty good for Democrats, better than expected. They lost the House, but they gain seats in the Senate and did well in state legislative races.
So these are the larger point I'm making is and I think David Frum's three elections in this rule is sound. My point is that we would need three definitive election cycles center u that there are murky results from say the midterms of twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two that
kind of make the picture a little more muddled. I'd expect to see Democrats winning three landslide victories in a row that would rattle and shake republic and politics to a degree where they couldn't necessarily put a positive spin on them.
Does that mean that Trump will still be running for president in twenty twenty eight It.
Would not surprise me in the least if he believed that he was simply entitled to run until the day he'd die. I think that he is of the opinion that he is a unique figure and that he has a cult following, which is true, and he playing the role of cult leader couldn't possibly to step aside because the cult wouldn't allow it. And so I think that we're Trump to lose in twenty twenty four. I would not be the least bit surprised if he ran again.
But what is less clear is whether or not there will come a point in which Republicans start to say, let's consider some other options here. You know, it would be a unique situation to see the Republican nomin knee lose a popular book, for example, and three consecutive elections, the same human being losing in the three consecutive elections, And so with that in mind, I'd be curious. I'll be curious to see in this hypothetical scenario. I say hypothetical because he might yet win. It's not as if
Harris's success is a foregone conclusion. On the contrary, I think the race is still going to be extremely competitive. But so long as you and I are having exploring this in our conversation here, if Trump were to lose, it would not surprise me at all if he runs again, But I would be more circumspected about whether or not the Republican Party at large would be equally eager to see him remain in a position of power.
Can I just say that, from your mouth to God's ear, I'd love to see him run in twenty twenty eight. I think there's not a single Democrat who would not be delighted by that.
I think you're right, and quite.
Frankly, Dieu, as my people say, you've been in different forms of media, read different forms of media, been on different forms of media.
How are we.
Failing well, Mollie. That is a big picture question, and I'm not sure if I have an equally big picture answer. I think that we're at a point of transition. I think that the corporate role and in terms of its control over the media. I think that public consumption and how people are going about consuming their day to day news, all of that is very much and flux. And it's concerning because, as we talked about earlier, the fact that
there's so many local newspapers that are disappearing. But at the same time there are these new opportunities for people like you and people like me who are pursuing new and creative lines of media. It is difficult to know how to feel about these transition periods because there's so much uncertainty, you know, there's still a small part of me that likes to think that in the end things are maybe things will work out. Okay, let's hope for the best.
Thank you, Steve. That was great, Thank you, thank you.
It's great to talk to you.
Molly.
No moment, Rick Wilson, Yes, Molly, what is your moment of fuckery?
I would tell you my moment of fuckery is something political, But it is my daughter in law who is due to deliver my first grandchild any minute now, and I'm waiting for that baby. Where's that baby. I want to see the baby. I want to see that baby. No, my actual moment of fuckery beyond wanting to see some baby, is everyone in America knew Donald Trump would eventually tire of being held in a cage and being told to be responsible, and being told to be a grown up
and being told to be an adult. That is why Horley Woodolski is back in the campaign. And though it has been greeted by the media as a sort of beta complete, and I'm going to tell you this is a guy with a terrible record of violence, of being a abusive to women, of being a creep, an adulterer,
a guy who is just a scummy person. He is not a good guy, and the media seems to be a yogged like Lewardowski, a vetteran of Trump's previous campaign, without putting in the things like Lewandowski fired by Trump super pac for sexual harassment, Lewandowski grabbing reporters and bruising their arms by man handling reporters, Lewandowski having an extramural affair with Christino. And this is a guy with a very bad reputation over time, a very ugly personal life,
and no one seems to care. But listen, Molly, the fuckery of it is, if your campaign is really in trouble with women and is losing women voters across the board, the solution is never corfit.
What doests me?
Thank you, Rick Welson, thanks for having me.
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.