Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds and Donald Trump vows to end birthright citizenship.
We have such an interesting show today.
Vermont Representative Becca Blint talks to us about how the freshman class of Congress relates to the rest of the body. Then we'll talk two third ways Matt Bennett about the danger that is no labels and how they're working to get Trump elected under the guise of a third party candidate.
But first we have the Washington.
Posts, the plumb Lines. Greg Sergeant, Welcome back to Fast Politics.
Fan favorite Greg.
Sargeant, Thanks for having me and not always fun.
I want to talk to you first about this piece you wrote that was published this morning that I immediately read what is happening in Florida and it reminds me of like brown back in Kansas.
Yeah, that's a really interesting comparison. Hadn't occurred to me. But what we wrote about was in Hernando County, which is in the western part of Florida, and DISSANTUS won by forty points and Trump won by thirty points. There was like a ferocious amount of pushback from liberal parents and teachers and also kids against kind of the right wing culture warring that's going on in that county, which
is really very very frialent and nasty. That's the place where the teacher got punished for showing her class a Disney film with a gay character, and people were very upset about that and all the other right wing culture war craziness that's going on. And so this thing went on for like seven hours or something, maybe eight hours, and it was really quite a show of force for the anti anti woke side. If that's the right way
to put it. I guess that's not quite the way right, just the pro woke, the pro woke side, that's a much better way to put it.
I Mean, what I think is interesting here is that you have a lot of students being like, I just want to learn.
Yes, can you talk about that?
Because I feel like there's a really good point here.
Yeah, And that seems to be having paid attention to a bunch of these kinds of outbreaks of liberal resistance in red states all over the place, which is a really big story. By the way, I want to say this, This is a big story.
People.
The press constantly hangs over every word of what the right wing says on this stuff and treats Moms for Liberty as like a set of really authentic voices when they're just really right activists and minority position. They represent a minority position in their communities a lot of the talk. But so you know, there's a liberal counter mobilization happening all over the place, and that's a big story, but
the pros isn't really covering it. It's starting to change now, but anyway, and part of it is what you just said, which is that the students are just absolutely sick of being told that they're being in duc trenated by liberals, right.
Yeah, I mean, they just want to do school.
So do you think that it comes back to this idea that the smartest lie Republicans ever told the mainstream media was that they were too liberal and so they are constantly overcompensating.
You could draw a parallel back to twenty nine to twenty ten when the Tea Party was really kind of getting going. The same thing happened. Then they were treated like this really authentic on the ground movement, and it felt a lot like the press was terrified of missing what's really going on out there in right wing America.
You saw that same thing happened with the Trump voters and diners, right right, there's sort of this perennial terror among the media that they're missing the real authentic America that's out there, and often it's right wing America that they're talking about when they say that, and center left to America, which is pretty substantial judging by the last you know, eight presidential elections, right, or I should say, the popular vote in the last presidential elections is sort
of rarely accorded that same kind of respect and deference and kind of fawning coverage. And it's a strange disconnect. And maybe you're right that that's the cause of it. That the smartest lie that the right ever told was that reporters are overly liberal, and so that could be
the cause of a part of it. But I think there's also like a genuine feeling among a lot of reporters that they are kind of culturally out of step with some sort of real authentic America that's out there somewhere that they're missing.
And I would like to add that the entire career of Selena Zeitel was you know made by her pretending to go to diners.
That is a good point. And you know, there's sort of another effect that you can kind of discern here, which is that someone like that is fairly skillfully playing on the press's kind of insecurities about missing that quote
unquote real America out there. And so whenever someone like that publishes these stories that supposedly tap into this authentic sentiment out there, a lot of mainstream reporters feel obliged to sort of bow down and kind of suck up to that kind of coverage and say, this person really seems to be onto something. And it's a very frustrating dynamic.
Another thing that I really want to talk to you about is the debt ceiling compromise has passed the House yet another time when Biden did not have a ton of good options really at all their stuff in there for everyone to dislike. Don't get me wrong, And the thing that keeps me up at night is some of the permitting reform staff because that is not clear and it looks like it opens the door to some environmental
stuff that's not good. But I mean, still a pretty good deal considering that a large number of their publican party wants to crash the economy.
Yeah, I mean, look, you know, I was surprised by it. A lot of other people in sort of our space were surprised by it. I still think though, that it was the right take to say beforehand, particularly you know, a month ago or so, that Biden should be prepared with a backup option, a unilateral option to exercise as a last resort if.
Which would have been the discharge petition I.
Think, or the fourteenth Amendment route where the Treasury Secretary keeps paying the bills because it'sction requires it.
The question of whether like this debt crisis pulls you into recession is as much about the perception as it is about the reality.
Well, that's I think another reason to sort of look at what happened here and not celebrate. Right. There's sort of a weird kind of smug tone among certain pundit types and economists who kind of predicted that something like this would happen. They seem very happy about what happened. But what I don't quite get is can't we imagine something better? Can't we imagine not negotiating an enormous spending package under threat of default it's still not okay that I'm unspooled that way.
Well, I mean, Ed Luce had a really good column in the Ft about how like it didn't end up being a catastrophe but it should have. I mean, if we're going to Monday morning quarterback, and I don't want to because I feel like, you know, we're seeing McCarthy take a victory lap, and we're seeing pundits talk about how maybe he's not as stupid as we all know he is, when in fact, this is, if anything, you know,
it would theoretically be a Biden victory. But I do think it's important to mention that they should have done this in twenty twenty two when they could.
Oh absolutely yeah. I mean, I think there's a legitimate argument over whether it was possible. Mansion and the Senators Joe Manchin and Kirsten Cinema appeared to pose to doing anything about the debt limit, but it's really clear that there wasn't a very serious effort to do it, and I think it really is unclear whether democratic leaders even want it right.
I mean, there's that reporting which says that some Democrats were saying it might actually make Democrats look good.
Yes, I think that's right, and that was just a baffling kind of reading of it. And I will say that that reading doesn't look quite as bad now as it did a month ago, right, right, But still, I think we got to come back to this point, like, there's no reason to be doing this under this kind of threat of duress. It's just it's crazy. It's no one should ever say that's okay.
No, I agree, And I also think that sort of more central to this is that in the end, McCarthy did not have the votes.
Yeah, I mean, that's true, and I think we always knew that it would require a large block of House Democrats pass, and you know, I think there's maybe some thought on the left that more could have been gotten because of that fact. I don't know if that's right or not, but I suppose it's worth thinking about.
Hell, I mean, there was a snap expansion that is sort of shocking to May.
Yeah, but it comes.
Back to this idea that Republicans don't really like you can't I mean, and I think this is a problem McCarthy stumbled himself into. Though may not understand because I don't think he understands things this complicated, But the Republicans don't have a platform.
Anymore, right, I mean, it was actually kind of reasonable to fear that maybe they'd want to crash the economy. I mean, Donald Trump was saying that that's what should happen. And I'm pretty sure he's like the leading candidates for the Republican presidential nomination.
Yeah, if anything, right, they're more interested in crashing the economy than they are in shrinking the I mean, like for so many years you could say Paul Ryan wants to shrink the economy. You could say, well, they want want to shrink the government, not the economy. But they will shrink the economy by shrinking the government, you know. And but but all of a sudden, that's not what Trump wants at all. He doesn't want to shrink the government.
If anything, you know, he wants more of an erduan like give people money to vote for me situation.
Right.
Although you know, I think one of the things that sort of the characters like Steve Benn and you know, Marjorie Taylor Green is a bit of a puzzle in all this. I've always thought of her as kind of a little bit in the benin kind of nihilist slash far right populist slash wants to bring everything crashing down to rebuild a new order, a new nationalist order or whatever.
And she's kind of been much more allied with McCarthy than I think a lot of people expected, right, But it did seem like there was sort of a mega position emerging which was to be kind of pro default, because it kind of goes back to the Flight ninety three election argument, right, like, if we're in a cultural emergency, as as some of these you know, right wing types seem to think or pretend to think, then and if the Biden presidency is an emergency that borders being overrun,
woke misses destroying our institutions from within and so forth, in saws want default to kind of bring it all crashing down and build up a new order.
Right, It's the Jill Stein presidency argument.
It's interesting when we talk about this interest one of the things I'm struck by which McCarthy maybe did play well.
And again, I never want to give him credit for anything, because I think he's an object moren but I do think it is interesting he took that very far right flank and he brought them in and he became you know, you saw Jim Jordan and Marjorie Taylor Green become his biggest sort of boosters, and you have to wonder if it's really true that these people actually don't believe in anything. They just want friends.
Yeah, I mean Kevin McCarthy seems like that. That seems like a good reading of Kevin McCarthy, right, he really, I mean it's pretty shrewd the way he seems to have defined the possibility of a challenge to his leadership. I still don't feel like I understand that dynamic very well, do you.
I mean, right, I thought he was nice to the people who always felt that they were kind of outsiders and that nobody was nice to them. And that's Marjorie Tayler Green and Jim Jordan. And because these people don't ultimately really believe in anything, I mean, you could see, like Chip Roy, but even Thomas Massey, I mean, Thomas Massey wants to you know, he's a real full libertarian, wants to destroy the federal government.
So he votes yes. Yeah, I'm glad he.
Voted yes, because I don't want the federal government to be destroyed. But you know, if you do believe in things, then you should theoretically believe in them. I'm just this is sort of the Yogi bearra school of politics. So that was my question, is like, what is happening here? I do also think, and again this was something that we saw earlier on when when McCarthy couldn't win all those votes votes.
Is that there's not anyone who really wants this job.
Yeah.
I mean, if you think back to Bayner, John Bayner and Paul Ryan, those guys were just so visibly unhappy in their role. I don't know if I don't know if your listeners will remember this, but there was a moment that I always think back to when John Bayner and he was probably you know, maybe his mental state was altered by some sort of liquid substance or something.
I don't know what you're talking about.
But he was really very visibly pissed off at the right for not getting on board with immigration reform. That was when Republicans there was a sizable block of Republicans who wanted to do immigration reform, not back then.
Yeah, hard to imagine.
And he did this cull routine right in front of reporters where he just mocked the shit out of these right wingers in all kinds of crazy, funny ways. And you know, his his visible you know, dislike of the job was so clear.
Yeah.
I mean I think we can all agree this is not a good job. Yeah, Scalize doesn't want it. And you even look at like what's happened in the leadership, like it doesn't seem that people are just delighted with the experience of being in the GOP leadership.
Yeah, I mean, can we float this though? Does Kevin McCarthy kind of like it?
I think he is his lifelong dream, That's all he's ever wanted. I mean, you know, the man had to like, you know, lapdog to Trump.
Mike Kevin. Yeah, remember Mike Kevin.
Yes.
And also I think if you think back to just before that, right, or well not just before that, but right after January sixth, Trump had practically literally sent his supporters into Kevin McCarthy's office to do some pretty serious damage, and Kevin McCarthy privately started saying to people that he should resign, and then he made that pilgrimage Tomorrow Lago, which was one of the most abject things, to use your word, that I think we've ever seen in politics.
At least can contemporary politics, and so at that point it was clear that he had made his deal to get speakership by essentially insulating Trump from accountability at all costs, which he did for years.
Yeah, the deal with the Devil that Kevin McCarthy made was that he decided that he would put his quest for the speakership over American democracy.
Yeah, that's very clear. I mean, he did everything he could to frustrate a real accounting into January sixth. Let's recall this, right, the deal that he made with I guess we should call it a sort of a long term kind of deal with the devil type situation with Marjorie Taylor Green. But remember she was on the hook for openly espousing something like real political violence. She had engaged in some pretty naked anti Muslim bigotry, and he protected her through all that stuff.
Yeah.
No, I mean that is absolutely true. Some progressives voted against it. But do you think ultimately everyone's largely happy and relieved.
Well, I think there's a genuine sort of unhappiness among progressives. To go back to what we talked about earlier, I think everybody's very pissed about the fundamental the structural aspects of the situation. Right that the very fact that this had to occur under duress is itself infuriating, and I think progressives are right to continue to raise hell about that.
It's not okay. I mean, there's a legitimate argument to be had about whether there was an actual ransom paid for the hostage, right, But there's no doubt that a hostage was taken, and there was visible damage to the country, like lots and lots of people were frightened about their losing their social security and so forth, and there was talk of a debt downgrade, and that actually happened during the last one.
Right in twenty eleven.
In twenty eleven. And so what we never factor in when we talk about this deal that was reached is the long term downside of legitimizing extortion as a kind of conventional tool of politics. Right, it can't be okay, And that's one of the things that progressives are rightly pissed off about, and I think they should continue to raise holy hell about that. Thank you so much, Thanks very much.
Rebecca Ballant represents Vermont's first district. Welcome to Fast Politics, Congresswoman.
Balant, Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
Well, we're excited to have you.
We will now have had all of the federal legislators from Vermont. Fantastic, Yes, we'll have the TRIFACTA. So you are the one congresswoman from Vermont, that's right, the lone one, the loan congresswoman. Let's first talk about this incredible legislation you guys passed yesterday. Tell me what was happening, what was going through your head, and also how you voted and how it went down.
Okay, first of all, to understand what happened on the floor yesterday, you have to go back to our first week on the job, when there were fifteen votes per speaker. Right. And so when you think about how it was that McCarthy was able to become a speaker to begin with, that he cut deals with the most extreme elements of his conference. That is literally how he became speaker. And so none of us should be surprised that we even had this emergency. Right, this was a manufactured crisis. They
raised the dead stealing three times under Trump. Right, this manufacturer. But the moment when I thought, oh my gosh, they really are not ready for prime time, They really don't know what they're doing. Was when it was a procedural vote, just to bring it to the floor, right, you need a rule suspension, and McCarthy didn't.
Have the votes to do it because we're.
All standing there watching the board really like, seriously, you don't even have the votes for the procedural vote. And so in the end, I believe it was twenty nine Democrats needed to switch their vote to give them to give McCarthy the ability to bring it to the floor. That does not bode well, right, the next vote coming, right, because that's just the procedural hurdle. So it's more of the same, right, it's more of this this extremist element
of his conference in the driver's seat. And so I really my feelings about the deal went through all different stages, almost like the stages of grief, right, right. And so when we got the top lines on Sunday night from the White House, it was before we even saw the text of the bill, I was feeling generally like okay, like crisis averted. It seems like the negotiators in the White House did did a good job with the bad
hand they'd been dealt. And then on Monday I was in meetings, as many of my colleagues were for hours, hours and hours on Monday trying to dive into the details. And then as we were diving into the details, I felt like, ugh, like.
The permitting reform, the environmental stuff freak you out?
Yes, right, oh, totally completely. And in the fact that they're always beating up on poor people right right, I mean again this trope again.
But they are so stupid that they did actually increase snap.
I know, it's pretty genius.
Yeah, yeah, no, it was.
Masterful on the part of the President and his negotiators because in the end we got more people covered, but not before again they dragged poor people and poor working families through the mud again, right, for essentially very little in supports. And we're not going to balance the budget eliminating people's you know, food support.
I'm not sure anyone's even interested in balancing the budget at this point.
Exactly.
Well, that's it, you said the quiet part out loud, right, which is no, they're not. They're not, because if you add a seriousness and purpose, you would be looking at what added to this deficit under the Trump ears, right, where these devastating tax cuts that weren't paid for adding over a trillion dollars, right, So I ran through through
all kinds of emotions. But when seeing the dysfunction and realizing they couldn't even get a procedural boat passed, it was clear to me that there was real danger that we could default, and I'm not going to be part of that. That is, you know what I was saying to a reporter earlier. The bill is distasteful, A default is catastrophic.
And so you know, you you make the best of the cards you're dealt, and you fight like hell on the Appropriations Bill and on the Farm bill and all that stuff that is going to come up. But it should be surprising to know one that this is how the conference is leading, given how McCarthy handed over the steering wheel too, folks like Marjorie Taylor Green, Lauren Bobert, Paul Gosart, like the extremist of the conference.
But what I was a little bit interested in, and again, you never want to hand it to McCarthy's I am in no way handing it to mcarthury. He made overtures to those guys like Jim Jordan, and then they supported him, Yes, which is proof that if you're just nice to them.
They don't actually have any values. That's it. They don't have any values.
And also who's their cash cow? Right? Some of this comes right down to money in their districts, right. So unfortunately that is the always the underbelly, which is where you're getting your money from. But yes, Marjorie Taylor Green has been right by his side. I think he was even quoted as saying is I will never abandon that woman, which she was just like I can have her, man.
Right, you washed the bile out of my mouth, you know.
I Mean what I'm struck by is the way in which she was like, it's a shit sandwich, and then she's like, but I'm gonna vote for it exactly. So that incredible. Yeah, So I know, director Young really was sort of the hero of this story.
Right, absolutely, And when she walked into caucus yesterday morning, we all gave her a skin ovation. That's how well respected she is. Even though there were parts of the deal that we didn't like, Even though we are so angry that we're even in this situation, she is absolutely should be hailed as a hero because she's incredibly smart, she is incredibly experienced, and she knows how to work with people. Oh shocking. You need people negotiations who know
how to work people. And yeah, I actually it's on my list of notes to write this week. There's not to like a handwritten note and drop her a line and just tell her, like, what a great job that she did, not just for you know, this isn't about Democrats versus Republicans. This is about she did work on behalf of the American people to make sure we didn't default. And that's that's huge, huge.
She is also the first African American woman to ever have that job exactly.
Yeah. Again, like we love to celebrate first, I was a first right, first woman to represent form, first queer person. All these things we do need to celebrate first and also we have to, you know, at the same time time shake our heads and say, really, it took this long, Right, it took this long for an African American woman to be in those negotiations. It is shocking. Yeah, I'm so pleased that she is in a position that she said.
I wanted just one last second on the director of Office of Office Management and Budget, Right, is that.
What it's called her?
That's right?
Yeah.
Yes, she also went supposedly McCarthy said that she was so respected even he could not say something bad about her to sort of that was the effect of what I read exactly.
And mckenry, one of the negotiators for McCarthy, said a similar thing, that it was this sense of almost an exhaling moment for everyone that, oh, like, we're getting serious about these negotiations. This isn't for show. Shalanda's in the room. This must mean that we're actually going to negotiate an actual deal. And that just speaks volumes for the word that she did for years. I believe she was a staffer on the Appropriations committee at so she knows. She
knows how to build budgets. She knows how to again, as I said, bring people together. It is. It is a lost art and I want to be part of those, you know, part of that coalition bringing back the lost art of actually working well with people. And yeah, it is, it is critically important.
You are also in a very insane freshman class.
So well, I feel like we just had like the lovely light government sometimes works. I mean, let's be honest here, it seems like Democrats fell asleep at the wheel a little bit with the House losing the House because you know there are eighteen seats in this House that are occupied by Republicans in Biden districts.
Yeah, we need to do a better job in twenty twenty four. Absolutely, we need to not take any fee for granted, right, We need to get back at least five vot you know, guaranteed VOTs to get to flip those seats, get back those seats that we lost in New York and California that we never should have lost. Absolutely, and so yeah, we have we of course we have some blame here as well as this whole debacle over
the debt ceiling. We could have you know, done away with it when we were in charge, and we didn't. That's on us, right, So that's work that we have to do going forward. And so what is inspiring to me, even in my frustration about being in the minority and looking at the dysfunction of the Republican Conference, the thing that gives me inspiration is the number of really inspiring Democratic freshmen who have come in with me. I love my class.
Tell me about the inspiring Democratic freshman, because I've seen some not so inspiring George Santos's.
That is right, all right, So let's talk about them. There's so many of them, and many of them serve with me on oversight. So you've got Jasmine Crockett, You've got Summer Great Kassar, Maxwell Frost.
We just had Summer lay on Yes and Maxwell Frost.
I know, I listen and Robert Garcia and then Daddio Ramirez and Morgan McGarvey from Louisville. I love my class. I feel a kinship with them, even if we don't agree on all political policies. Like we have a tight group of you know, it goes from the blue dogs to the progressives within our class, and we have a signal chat. We all are talking with each other. We lift each other's work up to the group. It was one of my biggest fears in leaving the Vermont legislation.
So I was the president of the Senate. We pass some really progressive legislation in Vermont, including codifying reproductive rights in our constitution. Like we did some really great stuff, And my biggest fear was I'm leaving a very functioning body to come here to Congress, and will I have allies? Will I feel a kinship? Will I have a group that will continue to really nourish me because it's the
hard work, right. You need to get inspiration from the people around you because there's so much to spare, and I do get that from them. And even when we're in oversight and once again they're beating up on queer people or trans kids or poor people, right, I know that Maxwell Frost is to my right and Summerly is to my left, and together we're going to be refuting the misinformation and disinformation and we all make each other laugh, like, yeah,
you can't lose your sense of humor. And so I just feel very fortunate to be coming in at this time. And it's no accident. Right, pretty much every Democratic freshman ran because of what happened on January sixth, So it was an absolute pivotal, crystallizing moment. Democracy is fundamentally at risk, and so we have that finding us together, and it's really powerful.
You're gay.
I am very gay.
I have a gay kid.
It seems like I've never ever I mean no, I had a lot of members.
Of my family were gay. Most of them have died. But that's why I say were, Yeah.
I mean Republicans are just attacking gay people in a way that I did not think whatever happen now.
Yeah, we're seeing the nineteen seventies all over again, as we're seeing has come back again. And when we see this, when you make advances, the backlash comes and we're in the backlash. And what is the most disheartening for me is that they are punching down. They're picking on kids constantly, right, And that's the piece for me. I'm an adult. I have dealt with the homophobia my whole life. It's another issue entirely when you are going after queer entrance kids
in their families. I mean, these are some of these kids, are you know, ten eleven years old? I certain I knew when I was eleven that I was gay. I didn't come out to my friends or family till much later. But a couple of weeks ago, we had an extraordinary
meeting with parents of trans kids. They came to the capital to talk to us about what their experiences are, and somewhere from quote unquote blue blue states, some from red states, and they all had the same thing to say, which is, you have no idea how painful it is for our children for them to watch their own government attack them.
Right.
Yeah, there is the toll it's taking in terms of the care they're not being able to get, whether they're they're not able to get their gender affirming care. But then there's also the psychological and emotional toll that your government hates you, that your government hates you, and that there are people who have absolutely no qualms about showing that hatred because they believe that the base on the
right will respond. And it is very disheartening. But we have been here before, like I know this, I know this play. That's what they always go to when they don't have any substantive politan discussions, when they don't want to actually talk about the unfair tax code or the fact that we're burning the planet or you know, any of those things. Let's beat up on people who are vulnerable because we don't think there are enough people to speak for them. And that's the message that I want
to let people know. And actually I listened to your great interview with Megan Hunt. We got to know each other through the Victory Fund, which is an organization that supports who are in trans candidates. And you know, she is a hopeful person. I'm a hopeful person. One of the takeaways that I had and listening to that interview you did, was that we need allies. We need people for whom this doesn't impact their lives day in and day out, to stand up for us because we are
tired and we're attacked. I feel like I have figured out a way not to let the homophobia and a hatred get to me. Like I don't read the comments, right, I don't, but you know all those things, never to comment. And also I've just been deciding, I'm in a blue district. I'm going to be unapologetically myself and be joyful about it. And so you know, we have these little stickers and T shirts that we made that just say scrappy little
Dike on them because that's who I am. Like, I'm scrappy, I'm little, I'm a dyke, and you know what, I'm not going to hurt you. I'm just going to fight for everyone. That's my message. I'm fighting for everyone, and we need allies that will stand with us. I think you can bring people to you when you are joyful, So I try to go through my days in that way.
I have one last question for you, what are you doing in Vermont? That is that the rest of the country should be doing legislatively.
Yeah, well, certainly around reproductive rights, we absolutely should be doing that. We have been leading on our childcare initiatives, and I was just watching the local news this morning worrying about what the governor was be telling you.
Have a Republican governor do exactly.
He is a sort of an old styled New England Republican, which is of course like he's one of like what three left in New England. That's right, And so I was watching this morning. He may be setting us back
on some of those initiatives. But I think one of the things that we've tried to do in Vermont is really look at who is suffering the most under this income inequality gap that has grown into a huge chasm in the last few decades, and how do we make sure that we are supporting those families and those individuals who are most vulnerable. And that's really what has been driving our budget decisions and our policy decisions. And I
think rural America desperately needs this right now. And that's one of the reasons why I'm from a rural state, right. I mean, our largest city is Burlington, which is really not that big, and you know, and I'm not from there. I'm from the southern part of the state that is that is rural. The rest of the state is rural, and I really want to figure out a way to make these ideas not about blue state, red state, and more about this is what rural America needs right now, because we're dying.
And rural America really has problems that the rest of America doesn't.
Yes, they don't have access to medical care or dentists or psychologists, or depending on where you are, you don't have the infrastructure that is supporting you and your family, and you don't have mass transit, and you don't have the ability to shop locally all of those things. And I think there is a place for me right now, even as an as of a.
Motorcycle riding gay woman from Rio from Vermont, to make the case that we do not need to be demonizing each other and dehumanizing each other on these extreme issues that the Republicans are bringing up because it's just killing people who are living on the margins.
Thank you so much. This was great.
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Matt Bennett is the vice president of Third Way. Welcome to Fast Politics.
Matt, thanks so much.
Explain to us a little bit about who you are.
And what you do.
Sure, so, I am a co founder a EVP at a think tank and advocacy group called Third Way in Washington, and we're basically moderate Democrats. We work with the center left. I think Joe Biden as our ideology, and we do a whole range of things, and I spend a lot of my time thinking about politics, and especially at the moment presidential politics.
Talk to me about what you're worry about.
The thing that is really worrying us at the moment is an effort on the part of a group called No Labels to field a third party candidate in twenty twenty four. This kind of flew under the radar for a while until David Brooks wrote about it back in September, and it became clear that they have a lot of money and that they were intending to try to get
on the ballot in every state. And when we looked at this, it became very evident not only that they could never possibly win the election, but if they go forward with this, they could serve as a spoiler and help reelect Trump.
So that really worried us.
Talk to us about where the no labels money comes from, Well.
It's important to emphasize that we don't know exactly because they're organized as a five oh one C four, which means they can keep their donors secret, and they do. There has been some reporting on a few people who give to them. They tend to be center right or Republican finance types.
They're not Democrats. I think is important to hit a point they're not.
It used to be that they had a more bipartisan group of donors, but a while ago they got involved in a Senate race in Colorado and they endorsed Corey Gardner, the Republican, against Mark Yudahl, who was a moderate Democrat and a lot of their Democratic donors kind of fled after that. So it's Republican.
So let's talk about what they're doing now to try to undermine this election.
Well, what they say they're doing is offering voters a choice because nobody wants a rematch a Biden Trump.
But that's bullshit, right, that's what they claim.
What they actually are doing is they have people on the ground in every state or most states right now seeking ballot access, and there's a quirk in the law that in thirty five states they can do that even though they're a C four, Their donors are secret, they raise on limited amounts of money. They're not a political party operating under all these other rules that would apply if they were. And they have already collected at least forty million dollars. They claim they're on their way to
seventy million. That's a lot of money for a third party effort. Yeah, and that's just to.
Get on the ballot.
They are playing foot seat with people like Joe Manchin and possibly Christian Cinema, Larry Hogan, the former governor of Maryland. They want to feel the bipartisan ticket, and they are telling their donors and supporters that they can do this in a way where they can actually win, But that's nonsense. What they will actually do is spoil.
But they really only want to get on the ballot in states where they could throw the election to Trump.
Too, It's hard to know.
I mean, they actually have called for the ballot in a few red states, so I'm not sure that's right.
Where have they qualified so far? Right?
So the first place was Arizona, right, which is a place where they really could throw the election to that absolutely could. I mean, lecture was decided by zero point two percent last time. They are on in Florida and there, which has become unfortunately a red state, as Steve Shale writes about today in The Bulwark. But then they're they're
trying to qualify basically everywhere. They have now said they want to be on in fifty states, and they've put out this electoral map where they claim they're going to win twenty five or twenty six states. It's insane to think that they could win anything much less twenty six states. But they are there purporting that this is a national effort, and it appears they have the money to do that.
That's really scary, It really is I mean, just to put this in perspective about how damaging this could be. In twenty sixteen, Jill Stein and Gary Johnson were two third party candidates on the ballot. They did not have much money, they did not have any name idea almost anywhere. But they were an alternative for a lot of voters who didn't like either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. And a lot of voters, at least a lot, in the
context of a very close race, chose that option. They got five six seven percent in a lot of swing states. Just to give you a sense of how devastating this was in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, which is we all remember those were the three states that killed Clinton. If she'd won those, she'd have been president. She lost them very narrowly. In all three of those states, Trump won
in twenty sixteen, and he lost them in twenty twenty. Nevertheless, his share of the vote in all three went up from sixteen to twenty. And the reason is some of the third party voters from sixteen went to Trump, but more went to Biden, so Biden. Biden's share relative to hillaryes went up by more. It's crystal clear evidence that a third party candidate can be a spoiler. It certainly
wasn't twenty sixteen. It obviously was with Ralph Nader in two thousand and A very well financed third party candidate could be incredibly dangerous and damaging.
Yes, what can we do to prevent this from happening?
Well, unfortunately, the options are somewhat limited. I mean, it's a free country. They can do this if they want to. They have enough money to have a sophisticated operation to gather signatures and get on the ballot in the states where they're able to before they have a candidate. Incidentally, they claim they're going to hold a nominating convention in April next year in Dallas. They will choose their candidate then,
and then that candidate will be in charge. So between now and April, what we are focused on is trying to convince both their donors and their potential candidates that this is a terrible and destructive idea that will lead to the reelection of Trump. And we're having a degree of success with that, And I think listeners can help by getting the word out that the no Labels effort is simply going to re elect Trump, whether they intend that or not, and they have run into some skepticism
from some of their donors. It has made some of the people that are potential candidates for them, like Manchinsinna and Hogan somewhat defensive. And I think that Drumbeat needs to get a lot louder.
So let me ask you where Harland Crowe figures into this.
Yeah, so we all remember Harlan Crowe from the incredible reporting don about Clarence Thomas and the trips on his yacht and his Garden of Evil and all of that. It turns out that he is one of or perhaps the top donor to no Labels. Again, hard to know because it's all secret. Apparently, according to some reporting, he is a major donor of theirs. And they've got other people. There's a guy named Nelson Peltz who was close to Trump.
At one time.
He's a big donor. Andrew Tish, whose brother is a big Democratic donor. Andrew is a Republican. So to your point earlier, these are Republican donors. There are a lot more of them. There was a story recently in the Wall Street Journal about how manche Wall Street guys are really into this. I mean, they love the idea of a nonpartisan or a bipartisan ticket. It's all blowney, but it is selling well in the donor class.
Right with Republican donors. Largely Republican donors, right.
I mean, clearly, if you are a Biden donor, this will not appeal to you. If you're a core Trump supporter, there's probably more direct ways of helping Trump than this that would be kind of a double bank shot. For the most part, these donors, I think, believe in good faith that this is actually a thing that could work, that these guys could actually win the election, despite the fact that no one has ever come close to doing that.
The person who got the closest was Teddy Roosevelt. He is carved into Mount Rushmore.
He couldn't do it.
The left office is one of the most popular president's of American history. Four years later, tried to run as a third party candidate and got smoked. But the way was a spoiler, and you know, at the time, the Republicans were the good guys, and he served as a spoiler and the Democrat one. So yeah, that the idea they could win is absurd. No one has won a single electoral vote as a third party candidate. Since nineteen sixty eight when George Wallace did it by appealing to racists. So,
you know, not going to happen. But somehow, people, for the most part, on Wall Street have convinced themselves that this time is different, which is a thing you probably shouldn't convince yourself of on Wall Street because we know how that goes. You know, they're kind of credulously behind it.
Yeah, I'm sure you saw that yesterday what's his name, hedge fund manager was saying that Jamie Diamond should run for president.
Yeah, Bill Backman, Bill Ackman, Yeah.
I mean, just like we're getting high on our own supply over here, team unbelievably so.
I mean, Jamie Diamond seems like he's.
Very good at his job.
But what happened on Wall Street is when you become that rich, think you can do any job right. You know, the idea that this guy, that Jamie Diamond would be a good candidate for president is ridiculous, particularly in the context of a re election of an incredibly successful, very moderate and bipartisan Democratic president. I mean, what we saw last night in the House was this incredibly overwhelming victory for Joe Biden. I do not know what the No
Label supporters want him to do. I mean he's doing pretty much precisely what seems that they would like.
Yeah, this is really about how handing the election to Trump.
We've declined to question their motives. I don't know what is actually driving the people at No Labels or their donors, but you're exactly right in effect, which is, if they do this, they will elect Trump, whether they intended or not.
So basically what's important now is that people write to and remind yirston Cinema crew, right, Yeah.
I mean Mansion Cinema, Larry Hogan, but also anyone else who is thinking about this, and to their own members of Congress that they should make clear that this is a terrible idea. Just to give you an example, the Problem Solvers Caucus, which is this group of Democrats and
Republicans that No Labels helped form. Say what you will about them, they're kind of centrist, bipartisan types, and some things they've done have been great, and you know, you could quipple with others, but there are a bunch of Democrats in the Problem Solver's Caucus and none of them can possibly support this because you can't be a democratic collected official and think Joe Biden shouldn't be president. Many of them have been clear about that, including their chair
Josh Koheimer said he doesn't support this. Abigail Smamburger put out a flaming statement about this. But there's a bunch more and whether or not folks have members of Congress who are in the problem solvers, they should write to their members and say be clear publicly that this a bad idea exactly.
And I think that's a really important point. What else are you watching with anxiety coming into twenty four?
So many things beyond this. There are two huge keys to twenty twenty four. What is the economy doing and how do people feel about it? And right now those two things are really out of balance because if you look at the data, the economy is doing extraordinarily well. I mean, unemployments at a fifty year low. Black unemployment is the lowest it has ever been recorded. The stock market's doing really well. Inflation is too high, and that
is absolutely a thing that hurts. But it does seem that people are reacting more grumpily to the economy than might be warranted, and that's going to matter. That will really drive decisions about who they vote for. So one thing is how's the economy doing and how are the people feeling about it? And then you know, the second thing is if Trump is their nominee, can we turn this into a choice and not a reference to mon Biden? And I think we can as long as it's head
to head. If it's a three way race, it's much tougher.
Yes, exactly, and that is really scary. What do you think is going to happen in Arizona with the Senate race?
No Labels comes into play here in an interesting way as well, because they have qualified for the ballot in Arizona and there are ballot lines available to folks running for other offices. So it is conceivable that Cinema could run as a no labels candidate for Senate against Gego and then whoever the Republicans nominee. It's pretty unlikely that she will even contest the Democratic nomination because there's almost
no way she could win. And then, you know, three way races are very very difficult, particularly if two of them are identified as basically Democrats. So it's a little nerve wracking there. I don't see a path forward yet, but you never know. I mean, Lisa Murkowski won a writing campaign for Senate Alaska, so anything's possible, right.
I find it hard to bet against Reuben Diego.
She's a very dynamic guy and he's got a lot of core supporters, and it will be very interesting to see how he does on this stage. I mean, he he was a very effective candidate for House, so we are hoping for the best.
Yeah, exactly, Thank you so much. This was really interesting.
I hope you'll come back anytime.
Happy to be here.
No moment O.
Fuck Jess he Cannon.
Molly jung Fast, that Roger Stone. He got a little too close to the Trump world, and he did what they all do, which is they say the thing they're not supposed to say. Why don't we listen to what he said?
I want to talk to you about Donald Trump. Someone who is a force of nature in himself, someone who marches to his own drummer, someone who is not handled, not managed control, A man who cannot be bossed and cannot be bought, which has made him one of the greatest presidents since Abraham Lincoln. I have a forty year record of being able to convince the big man to do It's in his best interest. He's not easy to deal with. It's complicated. He resents any implication that he
has handled or managed or directed. You have to say, remember that night we were in Buffalo and you gave that speech, and it had to be ten thousand people, their biggest crowd they'd ever seen, and you said X, Y and Z. The place went crazy. Remember that. I don't know where you came up with that line, but it's one of the best things you've read. Yeah, Like, I'm gonna use that one again. It doesn't fucking matter that he never said, it doesn't matter. It's time consuming,
but it works. I did it for thirty years.
Roger Stone saying that no one can control Trump and then minutes later talking about how he controls Trump.
That is our moment of Fuckeray.
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.