Matt Dixon & Yaroslav Trofimov

Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some.

Of today's best minds.

We're almost back from vacation, but we still have a great show for you today. Wall Street Journal Chief Foreign Affairs correspondent. You're a slav. Trofle Moth joins us to talk about his new book, Our Enemies Will Vanish, the Russian invasion and Ukraine's War on Independence. But first we have NBC's Matt Dixon to tell us all about his new book, Swamp Monsters, Trump Versus DeSantis.

Welcome Matt, Well, thank you very much.

You are Florida di like Rick Wilson, but probably don't curse as much. But you do live in Tallahassee.

I've heard too.

We don't cast aspersion.

It is observation. I not a dispersion.

Is it a dispersion?

I think it's an aspersion hard So the book is called Swamp Monsters.

Talk to me about Ron DeSantis.

One of the most interesting things about him is, to some degree he became better known nationally and people started to see sort of this crotchety guy, this sort of charmless battering ram of a man who just kind of couldn't really make human connections. It was interesting because I covered gosh. I lived in jacksonvilleiames in Congress, so I've covered him since his congressional days, and it was sort of interesting to watch the rest of the world see

Did you think when you started this book, oh, this fucking guy is not going to be the nomine like not even close. Or did you think maybe there's a.

Work No, I thought, I mean covering the his rise post pandemic and that the midterm re elections. I didn't know, you know, I wasn't in the you know, I one hundred percent think he's going to be the nominee. But with you know, he speaks pretty well to the base, at least before Trump got back in. He knows that

Everyone for the National Review, all those guys who.

Already really hate me, and I would like to add, have hated my grandfather and hated my mother.

I come by that hatred very honestly.

But that crew has always hated me, and they were so fucking pissed at me because they had this fantasy that Ron DeSantis was going to do like a nice light fascism, all the authoritarianism, none of the unforced errors.

And I saw him and I was like.

Holy fuck, if this guy becomes a nominee, we're in a lot of trouble because he is actually pretty smart and could really I mean, he's very smart.

Well, without question, he's very smart. But I do think one of the slightness about him is this idea that he's some great administrator or a more complicent version of Trump in the sense ooh say more.

This is interesting to me.

So many of the pieces of legislation, his biggest pieces of legislation have ended up in court and found unconstant courts. His administration from a staffing standpoint has been a bit of a mess. He's fired every campaign team he's ever had, and you can see some of the stuff going on with the super pack and the campaign staff is that doesn't go as well. So has always had staffing issues. There's always been sort of a palace intrigued circular firing squad.

Are you talking about don't say gay? Or are you talking about something else?

Well, in some of them it should be not that are still going through the courts that bill, and there's been several sort of culture war themed bills as he grows through the sort of National Republic and ecosystem that he got a lot of attention for, did big splashy press releases and all sorts of stuff, and you know, twenty million dollars in legal fees later, they're still either tied up in the courts or have have been tossed.

But I mean he's still more confident than Trump. Not saying much, but.

Yeah, right, but I do think there's a gray area there, right, Like it's not he's either Donald Trump or this you know, wonderful administrator. There's a space in between, and that's what he occupies.

That's I think a really good point. And the truth is being better than Donald Trump at anything does not make.

You good at something.

I want to talk to you about Pushaw, Christina Prushaw. What's his story there? She's the big lipped Twitter kind of monster that is a part of Desanta's world. But I feel like I've never encountered a presidential candidate who has sort of a handler like that.

I think how you describe her there, how she acts on social media is correct, but the tense is important here. She was that if you've noticed her Twitter persona is essentially just she's a factory of where retweets. At this point, the the personality, the personal attacks, the things that defined her as she was really sort of coming on the scene are largely gone. I think she's pretty much sidelined at this point, and I think is brand de Santis does Morning Joe, you know, three times a week now.

It is interesting they had they had decided they weren't going to engage with the mainstream media because they didn't need it, because they had everything they wanted and they're crazy far right world, and then they just changed their mind.

It shocked the system initially when it first came on the scene, so we were all like, oh my gosh, they were getting you know, anytime Sands set a negative story, they would get headlines and conservative media outlets and sometimes

Yeah, it is interesting that they out trumped themselves a little bit.

Right, Yeah, I think that's right. I mean Trump came, you know, coined the term fake news or really made it popular, and I think the DeSantis folks wanted to take that to next logical extension and it just wasn't strategically smart one and two, I don't think they're quite as good at it right.

Ultimately, Like the thing I'm always struck by with it is that desantists had all these policies like it was an interview I recently saw I have my when he was on Morning Joe Meeka asked him about the sort of anti democratic policies of Trump, and DeSantis was like, they're not anti democratic enough.

Yeah, I think he said something the effective I don't think he could go as far as he could have with the or he's granted under the Constitution, and he's specifically pivoted to some the quote non violent January sixth folks, And I think, I think I know what interview you're talking about. Yeah, so I don't. I was asked, I forget where, but on some interview about how DeSantis tries to till that liner, he tries to navigate those waters, and my answer was, well, he's really not. I mean

I me and kind of incredible. Right, Florida is actually not as read like. He won by a lot, but part of that was because he was running against the world's worst politician who had been a Republican, and also because the party fell apart.

Right yep, even I mean, even if you think Charlie crist individually is a bad politician, the Democrat ran against the Santis that even there was no money, that national Democrats completely give up, and he had.

Been a Republican.

I mean, you would like ten days ago. I mean, it was a complete shit show.

The number that always jumps out at me in the previous midterms, So I guess it would have been twenty eighteen. The national Democratic organizations that Constellation spent about sixty million in Florida, they spent about two and twenty twenty two. So I don't think there's a way to underscore a

Yeah, I mean, I also think running on COVID when COVID is not the central right, like, I mean, the whole idea is going to run on how well he did, which really he didn't, but whatever, for a pandemic that isn't what people are focused on anymore.

I think is also interesting.

He only really started to lean into it once desperation mode kicked in. I mean, when he started with you know, two hundred million dollars budgets for a super pack and all this this crazymera of this momentum, he wouldn't do any of the fauci stuffing into the vaccine stuff. He didn't attack Trump at all. So he's now really running on COVID and sort of his record during the height

The thing that I think is so medieval about him is his anti gay stuff, Like that stuff is sort of like out of another center.

The chair of his Republican Party of Florida is in his own sex scandal that involves his wife with another woman's. I think it's important to note that she that the wife and there is accused of nor I'm doing. But the hypocrisy aspect of that is started a lot of attention. You're certainly right. And one of the things about the Santas I do think he believes the things he talks about and pushes.

I do.

There's some politicians who are are much more performative and want to speak to a political base or a political supporters in the way that they think works best. I do think Desantas says says, you know, for for better or worse, and not necessarily the defense of the positions. But he believes the stuff we're talking he's talking about out and advocates you.

Think it really does hate gay people.

What also? I mean, he certainly pushed a lot of pieces of legislation and a lot of policy proposals that that community does not like. And my point was that I actually think he believes these things. It's not performative to him.

No, I think he does genuinely suck.

But it is interesting, and I also think he's a terrible bigot, but it is interesting to me, Like in the year twenty twenty three, we have a guy who's like, if you teach kids about being gay, they'll be gay.

When there's been so many unintended consequences. When they sort of talk about these pieces of legislation, they don't say gay bill, for instance. I mean, it obviously got a ton of pushback, but they said it was just going to be in classrooms up to third grade.

Right, But they were totally lying, right because then immediately it's now it's at high school.

They evenformalized that the board that oversees state college is largely appointed by the santis. Formally he's expanded it to seventh grade. So even there was informal ripple effects from that, but even sort of the administrative state. Dare I say that Florida's deep state expanded that law as opponents of it.

I thought it was so interesting with the Moms for Liberty. So here she is Bridget Ziegeler involved in. Again, being in atois is not against the law, in case anyone's wondering, Nor is being married to a guy who may or may not. But it's certainly their is accused of raping a woman. But it is interesting to me. You know, she did send her kids to private school while being

Well, it was also acknowledged. I mean, she's openly talked about the fact that she had a helping hand in craft that don't say yalaengislation. So the criminal investigation aside, there's a whole can of worms about hypocrisy that I think is getting a lot of attention right now and probably should.

One of the other things that Florida has done is they have you know, so you can't teach about sexuality, but you also can't at an abortion, right. I mean, he had a more moderate sance on abortion. He changed it, right, let's talk about DeSantis. Yeah.

Well, and also I think there is some self realization on his part that it's not popular because he didn't get a ton of attention at the time, and maybe he should is he When he signed to Florida's six week abortion man. He did it, which is very rare for him, eleven thirty at night in his office usually the bills. I mean, DeSantis is well known for having huge splashet press conferences when he does bill signings or

Felt he had to do it to win the nomination right well.

And I also think, like I had mentioned earlier about he believes in the stuff he does. I do think he believes in the stuff at a personal level. As you're preparing your run for president in a Republican primary, can't be a video an abortion bills.

Let's get away from the insane religious zelism, zealadism, zolatinism. I've just made up the word and talk about the lifts. So he's wearing these cowboy boots. He's obviously not a hugely tall guy. He's wearing kebbo boots. Is he just think nobody's gonna notice. I mean, like some of these unforced errors seem like they just he just never occupied Earth. Wan.

Well, there is a thing, and maybe this is like just a backwoods Tallahassee thing, but like suits and cowboy boots, like is a thing that happens here with some degree of regularity. It's not like a unique fashion sense, and a lot of the governor's staff also wear them. But where I think the problem is is where he's got like the wicked wish of the West look, where the like the boots are actually sort of like curling up,

So what snacks for Ronda d Santis? He is d term limited. Where do you think this goes?

I think he would still in his mind like to run for president again one day. I think the big question moving forward is going to be, is you know, clearly the sort of maga Trump crowd still controls the Republican base, and to what degree is he damaged to himself and his name with those voters if it's possible from running in So I think those are going to have to be questions he's gonna have to hash out.

People like to speculate on the idea that Casey may run for governor. Is that just completely stupid or is that like a real thing.

I think it's a real thing. I've always thought it would be more like they should run for your Senate simply because and this is just a ramp speculation, because you know Tallahassee versus well, the conversation about it has been out there for quite some time, especially here, So I'm not just speculating, you know, without there being some basis for it. But she rarely be in DC than Tallahassee.

Right, that's what everybody says.

I kind of see it that way as well. But you know, she's been old many many times in potential twenty twenty six over the next Minitario race here, and she does quite well with Republicans, So I don't know if it's much more than just sort of speculation and sort of you know, chatter among you know, political observers. At this point, I think it could happen, and I certainly don't think it's unrealistic to talk about her think that it might be a reality.

I hate that. Thank you so much. I hope you'll come back.

I hope you have you back, and I enjoyed it.

Your Truflemov is the chief foreign affairs correspondent at the Wall Street Journal and aaughter of our enemies will vanish the Russian invasion and Ukraine's war on independence.

Welcome to Fast Politics.

Yourself, Hi, Hi, grace to be in a show.

Really excited to have you.

You are the chief foreign affairs correspondent for the Wall Street Journal. And also we both were finals for the Pilitzer Prize. Just kidding, No, I was not. That's hilarious speak really because now never. So let's talk about what it's like right now in Ukraine.

Well, you know, the war is almost two years old by now, and the miracle is that Ukraine has not collapsed. Ukraine has fought back. He ukrainely reclaimed about half of Atlanta rosa regionally conquered, and considering the disparacy and the size and the sheer military power of the two nations, it's a very unexpected outcome. You know, if you remember what was happening in the first days of the war, everyone I was giving up Ukraine for dead, including the US,

But Ukraine is resistant and Russia has not been able to advance.

Tell me what you think. This has been such a weird war in a lot of ways, like.

Things have not happened in the way that it's been predicted again and again. Is that really because of the strength of the Ukrainian people or is there more to the story.

Well, you know, this has been really Yoya war, not so much in terms of the actual wars, in terms of public perceptions. So one day it was Ukraine as doomed. Next day Russia is weak and is in a colossus and clay Feet is going to collapse. Then oh no, well Russia can steal fights. And then again, so it's been kind of like this for two years. People have dramatically underestimated Ukraine, its ability to its ability to function

They used the time that they had from summer twenty twenty two until the summer of twenty twenty three to regroup, to begin to prepare.

And by the time Ukrainians finally received Western tanks, you know, Bradley's Strikers, their parts and all the other year that had been asking for for more than a year for their summer offensive the twenty twenty three, you know, the Russians were ready, and there was a lot more of them because you had mobilized hundreds of thousands of reservists.

But part of what's happening is that the Russians are not great fighters, right, I mean, Russia itself is having its own sort of come to Jesus moment with the war, right, Well.

I mean, Russians are not bad fighters. Obviously, what we have seen in this war is that the Russians are ready to go and die, which is sending hundreds of thousands to the semi grinder, and there's been little resistance and people just obey and go and go in these massive waves that eventually a cheaper result. You know, they did take the city of Bahmut in the early twenty twenty three, you know, at the cost of tens of thousands of people, but then it did take it. So

Right, I mean, what is it like being on the ground.

You've covered a lot of wars. I mean, is this different? I feel like there's a sense in which you are in Europe and that in itself is radically different than other wars.

Well, yeah, I covered the wars all my perstaurant life, you know, in Iraq in two thousand and three, in Afghani stand for many years, you know, Liberia, you name it, and it's all wars in Europe, in the Bulk, in Georgia and Dream two thous and eight. But you know, I was born in Ukraine. You know, I grew up in Teare. My family has been there for generation since. So obviously seeing invading armies bombard the streets where you know you have childhood memories is completely different on the

Cut moral case. You know, Ukraine hadn't done anything merridis.

It was invaded by Putting because of his sheer ideas of imperial conquest and world domination, and Ukraine was resisting morally, you know, without you know, killing civilians, without breaking in the international material law and.

Using pretty much its own resources in the first few months. In a way, it was a very black and white war. It still is compared to many other complexs we're seeing now.

Yeah, it is very black and white, right, there's a bad guy, which it's so in some ways. It's so different in a way because with what's happening with Israel and past and like, it's not the same. It's not as cut and dry, right, I mean, there's much more nuance in that war wars there is in this one. Can you sort of explain to our listeners what the story is between what happened with Putin and his and that militia group that was part of the army, and

Well, it certain it did because Wagner, as this mercenary group known it was the most efficient part of the Russian military. You know, after the Russians were outed around Kiev in the first weeks of the war, the only area where they could advance in the bus was the area where Wagner was operating anyhow, and they brought this dip from Syria from Africa. They all experienced, had best, recruited the best and brightest in the regular Russian military, and.

Paid them a lot of money and had a lot of resources.

And then they tried for almost a year to take the city of Bachmut. They did take it, and they lost, according to Hubhani, Pregosian leader of Wagner, you know, upwards of thirty thousand men, so pretty much they lost everything. And that that really caused this attempt at a pouch, after which it survived, Wagner was disbanded, Pregaussian died in a mysterious playing crash.

Bottom line is that no longer exists as a credible military force, and he credit doesn't have to fear it.

Right, do you think that pregosion would have otherwise sort of taken over for Putin? I mean, do you think he was making a play that way?

Well, he was looking at play, but I don't think he was a man who thought things through necessarily. He was himself traumatized by spending a week's month and the bombardment in Bafmut. He didn't seem to have a clear plan, and he was counting on support within the Russian military.

They didn't come through at the end.

But what he spoke about the ideas, he voiced our ideas that are shared by many in the Russian military. And he was complaining about how the war was not waged in a correct way. It had been prepared and it was pointless, he said in his very last speech before the attempted She said that Zelenski was offering us peace and Putin could have just come down from the Olympus and talked, but Putting refused the job. To Zolanski apuentil the invasion.

It feels like Putin has that this has really tested his I don't even want to say presidency because he's not really a president, but has threatened his rule in a way. Other events happened. Do you think that's right? And if so, can you talk about that?

Well, I mean what happened is that, you know, the war definitely backfires and putting the war is painful for the Russian side, to the Russian economy and the war everybody acknowledges in Russia and didn't go to plant I mean the planet was to take key injuries.

And so now he's stuck with it. He stuck with the war. He's stuck with the Mountain death Tollhundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers were killed or maimed on the battlefield and you know many more will be in coming month. And so you know, he's in a way a hostage of the situation because he cannot end the war without losing face and perhaps losing power. And so there we are in this and you know, his goals and the war haven't changed. You know, he still wants to take all of Ukraine and maybe.

March forward, and he's banking on the fact that the US and other Western nations will tire of supporting Ukraine military and financially and he will prevail. And it's not a completely unrealistic line of thinking, especially if President Trump.

Wins elections in the US and you know, he hasn't indicated great nudism for spending as a billions of dollars in Ukraine.

It feels very much like the Republican Party is going to work quite hard to make sure that Ukraine doesn't get any money. Are Europeans willing to backstop it? It feels like geographically, if Putin rolls through Ukraine and Poland is next, and this is much bigger danger to Europe.

I mean, it's certainly danger to all of us.

But I mean, do you think that Europe or backstops some of those can they?

Are they even capable?

Well, I mean, first of all, I mean, let's see what happens with the Republican Party. You know, they're still negotiating some sort of package that includes border security. You know, the Republicans in the Senate for sure haven't abandoned Ukraine just yet. If banks do collapse and negotiations should studied anywhere and the US plane is not forthcoming, Europe of course is trying to step in, and especially the Germans because they view this as a direct threat to their

I mean, doesn't it seem strange to you that you have one political party that has turned so radically? I mean, isn't it sort of surprising you because like I grew up with a Republican party that was much more interested in nation building if nothing else.

Well, I mean, I guess on one hand, you do have the blowback from all his experiments in your rock and elsewhere. They didn't go exactly to plan.

But on the end, let's also look at three alasy not the entire Republican parties anti Ukrainian that very allowed to voices on the fringes, but Republican leaders in the House and in the Senate and still say they will not allow Putting to win.

They will support Ukraine at least verybody. The support is still there, so let's see that translates into votes the coming weeks and month you.

Were in Afghanistan, you covered that Taliban takeover that sort of held up is when the shit goes really wrong, and Zelenski is held up as sort of the leader when things go right. Do you think that's true or do you think that's a big over simplification And can you explain to us a little bit about that.

Well, you know, I wasn't cobble on that. The cable fell and it was very sudden, you know. The night before the Avid president ash from Ghani inspected the troops, the were ready to defend it, and by noon he was in helicopter flying away and the city just collapsed in front of my eyes. The Taliban were in my

Right.

I just want to get back to Afghanistan for a second. Do you think that there were failures that America could have seen earlier with Afghanistan?

I mean, I read so much coverage about it.

It just feels like we don't get the whole story with Afghanistan.

Well, I mean, Afghanistan is a very long complex and

We don't have that problem in Ukraine.

Yeah. So interesting.

We're out of time, but I really appreciate you, and I hope we can talk again.

Absolutely, it was great stalk to you.

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