Mary Trump, Jon Allen & Andy Kroll

But first we have the author of Too Much and Never Enough, The Mary Trump Shows. Mary Trump, Welcome to Fast Politics. Mary Trump, Hey, Molly, it's really good to be back. I wish it were under different circumstances as the saying, I have to tell you, I was like the only good thing when I saw the Trump tweet about how I was going to be arrested by the way, I mean, if we're going to get technical here, it's

a misdemeanor. I don't even think they could. I mean, I don't know the nuances of this, but my assumption is the chances of going to jail and misdemeanor are zero. I think you're correct. I am no lawyer here, but when I saw that, I was like, I thought, Oh, we have to fucking deal with this guy again. And then I thought, oh, but we can talk to Mary so so we can deal with it together. It's like,

I was like, there is one good family member. I mean, this is like, probably the only person less surprised by that tweet than him or you know, Milannia or Vanna wherever she is, was you, Yeah, I might have been less surprised, quite honestly. And I mean you saw it and you were like, exactly right. Yeah, there's literally nothing the bad could do anymore that should surprise and honestly even shocked. There was this period of time we're gonna have to start naming them like the place to See era.

But there was this particular era in the life of Donald Trump where the reactions were always I'm not surprised, but shocked. We have no right to be shocked anymore. The only thing that shocking us right now is how

long this is fucking taking. I really want to talk about that for a minute, because that is the thing that it has struck me the most over the last couple of months is this ability on the part of both the mainstream media and the conservative media, and also all of us to be surprised, you know, like, for example, Trump was asked a question, if you're indicted, will you run and he said yes, because of course, and people were shocked. He'll run, He'll raise money, and he'll win, right,

I know that's the worst. No, He's definitely gonna win. The thing that was so shocking to me was I thought, well, you know, normal world stuff will make you think, well, if enough indictments come, perhaps Republicans will say, like, this is the moment. And I don't think there's any evidence

to support that. There's zero evidence to support that in fact, and I think one of the reasons you see people like Descent is sitting on the sidelines is because they're waiting to see what the reaction is to the indictments. And I can tell them it will fire up the base even more and it will get other people to change their minds and decide to support him, because he's going to betray himself at such an aggrieved victim, and he's going to call on all of them to right

the wrongs not just against him, but against them. It's going to do the same thing that he did in

twenty sixteen, but on steroids. So the moment that I think was the moment where we saw eight thirty am Yesterday's on the eighteenth, sort of two hours after Trump had truced about how he was going to jail for because of political reasons, because of a which had Kevin McCarthy, the man who was made speaker basically by a combination of Chuckle Carlson and Donald Trump, said here we go again, an outrageous abuse of power by a radical da who

lets violent criminals walk as he pursues political vengeance against President Trump. I mean, I feel like that was the moment. It was like the same as going tomorrow Longo to take pictures with Trump after January six Yeah, that's absolutely right. He has shown us with that statement that he's all in. He's also shown us, not that we needed more evidence of it than he's a complete idiot, because I'm guessing

he's seen absolutely none of the Graduary evidence. Yeah, they are preempting any reasonable analysis of what has gone into this. We had to say potential indictment because it doesn't happen yet, right exactly, But it is amazing to me, because like, the thing is, it just seems to me so clear, right.

And the funny thing about that tweet I wanted to just talk about the tweet from Kevin McCarthy for another minute, was the person who was most relieved to see that tweet was not Donald Trump, I think, but Donald Trump Junior, because he knows it as soon as this exercise is over, his great betraying stops. Oh yeah, that's actually I tried never to think about him, so that didn't occur to me.

But you're absolutely right. It'll be kind of interesting to see if it shifts the stands of either neutrality or just seeing themselves that we've seen from what's her name Avanca and Jared. Yeah, if the entire party gets on board in the midst of what should be many, many, many, many indictments, I feel like with Avanca and Jared, there's more.

I mean, supposedly they are rumors that there's trouble in paradise there and that maybe that is distracting them from their primary purpose, which is grifting off the gravy train that is Dad. And I say, this is a NEPO baby myself, though I'm a middle aged so I'm a nepo oldie. Your fortunes are invariably tied to your qualifier, you know, the one you get your nepotistic glow from. So I mean, the fortune of Donald Trump is very much, I think, on the agenda of the spawn. And for

Donnie and Eric, they are entirely attached. I know, poor I forgot about Eric well, because why not. Their fortunes are entirely attached to Donald. Jared and Nevacca haven't. First

of all, Jared is legitimately wealthy. His father's legitimately wealthy, and after he got out of jail, he's been legitimately about it, yes exactly, or you know, legitimate to the extent that people like that can be, right, And I think that well, clearly the calculation they've been making is that between Jared's daddy and MBS, they don't need Donald anymore, right, But you know, if he regains political relevance, and if

they want political relevance, that will change their tune. It depends what kind of power is more important to them. I always am sort of struck by and again I know this is like my own stupid naivete and by the way, naivete is not the right word for what I'm about to describe. But there was an opportunity right after trump loss for some of these members of the

family to run for office. I mean, the Republican Party has a very low bar, you know, especially in these very red states, and if you've just touched Donald Trump, you can be you know, and none of them took it, which I always sort of was shocked by. Yeah, I think the only well, I think Donnie just isn't capable of getting to a point where he can pull himself together enough to do something I don't. I mean, I'm not trying. I mean it's I have the disease of alcoholism.

I mean, I'm sober a long time. But I get it, man. I mean, I'm not saying that anyone has anything, but I'm just saying I understand the inability to pull oneself together. I relate to that. Yeah, as do I honestly for for different reasons. But you know, I think a lot of us suffer from that, especially post Donald postcoment. Right exactly.

But I think again with the Bunco, it was more that ended so badly that there was no way to know at first how easily the Republican Party would be swayed to fall in line, and how egregiously responsible the new powers that be at the DOJ would be in calling anybody to account. I don't know that it would have been clear at the time that Trump would have gotten away with it, which we now now he will. Yep, we do, and I think it is pretty interesting to hang up. So I want to talk to you about Well,

let's just game out this week a little bit. It's Sunday. This podcast comes out on Monday, actually comes out on Sunday night for those of you who are very excited. So you know Trump has said Tuesday, We've heard Monday, we've heard Wednesday, we heard last Friday, so certainly something

is coming. There are other indictments, again though none of these are from the DOJ, so they have a lot less power than a DOOJ indictment or they because they are come from these lawmakers who have been elected, they have a certain partisan tinge even if you might not believe that, but it does undermine I think a little bit about what's going on. I mean, what do you think I think? I mean, they're protests planned, there's more tweeting. I mean, where do you think this goes you know,

your uncle, unfortunately for you. Uh yeah, I think his reaction falls into two categories. Well, whatever the case is, he'll do what he's already been doing. He's he's already setting up the challenge. He's attempting to undermine the validity of the process and the charges, etc. And the only thing we don't know is if it is he going to cooperate. One thing about Donald is when push comes to show, he does seem to have this pragmatic side. You know, he didn't dig in his heels and stay

at the Oval office. Were you a little shot by that? It was a little shocked by that. No, I wasn't because he's a baby, and you know that would have taken some guts. Actually, So what does he do. He leaves with all of his many thousands of stolen documents, and he just doesn't go to the inauguration, right, that's right? Yeah, Yeah, that's that's how he fought the good fight. Yeah, exactly. So I think it's really unlikely that he doesn't show

because for whatever reason. So I don't think it's a about even listening to anybody, although I'm sure he doesn't some level have to be persuaded. He does have a remarkable instinct for self preservation. So I want to talk about John Edwards because I think that as an important data point. John Edwards, Democrat, very handsome, extremely nice head of hair, accused of funneling nearly a million dollars and don't have contributions to support his pregnant mistress. Again, not

what campaign money is supposed to be. Engage those of you who are Republicans who are listening to this, because I got if you're right, Yeah, he is accused, he is indicted, and he is ultimately he's ultimately it's dismissed. There definitely is a sense that people do not want to indict former candidates. We discuss that's stupid. Is that

in nuanced enough? I mean Elon Musk said this is going to make him president against well, okay, not because of the indictment though, because the process is so broken, Because if indeed this is the first indictment against him, that makes all of the others, which are much much much more serious, harder or tainted somehow. So it isn't

because he's getting indicted. It's because he's had oh my god, how many years, so many years that I feel like I'm ninety eight now to evade, change the subject, create a new narrative, get other people believing laws, etc. And you also have people on the right side of things, which is to say, the left, who we're gonna be like, yeah, so because it's just taking forever. It also has a lot to do with framing. It's always this is cases. I see it always put in terms of Stormy Daniels

and hush money, right, but it's not. It's it's elections from which clearly not as as serious as inciting an armed insurrection against your own government two elections in a row, but it's still pretty freaking serious. And it's our unwillingness just face these things head on that continues to enable people like Donald Trump to gain power. And it starts with, you know, the fact that Richard Nixon wasn't indicted. Yeah, no,

I think that's right. I think it is interesting though, when we're talking about this, to think about how the Republican Party, so we saw Kevin McCarthy, we're gonna see other I want to like finish up with this Don Junior, because it's like you can see what's happening in his head So after Don Junior tweeted that like this tweet about how it's thrilled he was that Kevin McCarthy decided to defend his dad, Don Junior wrote another tweet, feeling a little bit now he's decided the tides have turned

and he's pretty psyched any things, people are going to continue to support his dad, And he says, pay attention to which Republicans spoke out against this corrupt bs immediately and who sat on their hands and waited which way the wind was blowing. So, I mean, you do definitely see like the Trump addas apparatus has kicked into gear. You got Pizza Jack, you got Don Junior. They are ready to support daddy and bully whoever they can into supporting him. And again, I just don't see how this

apparatus does not deliver Donald Trump the GOP nomination. It does, That's what it was designed for. And again that's actually fine. That's how it's supposed to work, right, that's their job. The problem, again, always comes back to the unwillingness of the people who actually had the power to do something about it refusing to do something about it. You know, I mean, we've talked about this before Jack Smith. It took two years for this man to be appointed special counsel.

That should have happened two years ago. Fanny Willis, I'm not going to second guess her, but last I checked, imminent doesn't mean it'll be a really long time and I'll probably be dead before anything happens. So not that she's unwilling, but that if you are so concerned about that phrase, if I hear it one more time, I'm gonna jump off a cliff. Go for the king. You miss not miss right. If you don't go for him

at all, you know you're totally gonna miss right. That's what the apparatus has had so much time, so much leeway, they've gotten away with so much. They've changed so many narratives, they've changed so many minds that if DeSantis or anybody of his ilk did decide to run, they will be roadkill and they will be tainted forever for running as a Republicans. Right. It's just such an interesting I mean, are you worried about violence in New York? I mean,

it sounds like there's certainly some chance of that. I'm not worried about violence in New York City. It is so anti Donald that, um, you know, the number of people to show up will be outnumbered. They should, yeah, exactly, But the problem is that it could happen anywhere. You know, we could we could be looking at stochastic violence because

of how Donald triggers people. And that's the concern that we said, you know, after the FBI search of Marlago, that guy in scott tried to go at an FBI office and he ended up dead, and other people could have been killed. So I have a feeling one of the reasons that it's taken longer is because all of these venues have to put in place very very serious security organizations because they are desperately worried that Donald is going to incite people to commit violence, which I'm guessing

John Edwards did not do. But he did have that beautiful hair. He did have very beautiful I can see the hair. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this again. I mean, I'm sorry that we have to deal with this again, but I am sorry. Like, at least, I don't like Donald Trump, and I don't like how this went down, but it doesn't like my own fucked up family stuff is not somehow tied to this this is true. It would be really weird if it were right.

But I mean, I feel like there's a certain kind of you know, I can just deal with my parents in a compartmentalized box, which is not in the American political system. Game is out for me. Where do you think this goes? Specifically in terms of New York, well, and just in terms of like the you know, he wins the nomination. What worries me is that he is in some regards stronger in twenty twenty four than he

was in twenty sixteen or twenty twenty simply. And this is a great irony because in some ways the Biden administration has made things better, you know, So there's that unlike twenty sixteen, Donald will have all of the Republican arms supporting it, right, so you know, they'll all get in line no matter what they say about him. I don't know that the never Donald group has grown significantly in the interim. On the other hand, I think his

running actually undercut some of their arguments against Biden. Although actually they only have one argument against Biden, and it's that he's old, right, It's too old. Yeah, I can't live my life if I think that Donald will win the general election. Right, I have to be optimistic, but I think we'd need to be very, very worried. Yeah, no, I think that's right. Happy Sunday everyone, Happy Monday everyone, or Sunday night. Right, the worst is yet to cut.

That's right, That's right, because really knows. Yeah. Oh, thank you, Mary. It's great to be. John Allen is a political reporter at NBC and the author of Lucky How Joe Biden Barely won the presidency. Welcome back to Bass Politics, my friend and yours, Allen, Molly, John Fast. We're going to do old radio here. You've been to some rallies, John,

You've seen some shit. Tell me what you've seen. I went to see Ron de Santisi's first two events in Iowa a week ago, and then Donald Trump's first rally in Iowa of the twenty twenty four campaign a few days later, also in Iowa. Where were you in Davenport and Des Moines for the two to Santas events and then back in Davenport for the Trump event if you know, For folks who don't know, Davenport is on the Mississippi River, one of the four quad cities that straddle the Mississippi

between Iowa and Illinois. All right, that's more than I want to know about Davenport. We gotta We're no, I'm just kidding. We're not a geography podcast. I first want to talk about Ron Santas because I feel like everyone is very excited about him. I mean, I've read reporting that says he's kind of a goof talk to me. You gave you know, actually what would be a stump speech to about seven hundred people in each location that

he spoke at. He was introduced by Governor Kim Reynolds, who sat on stage with him and did some Q and A with him. He signed books for people, you know. I think what I would say is that if there were not a Donald Trump in this race, and it's like an open Republican primary, and you were around to Santus and you went into Iowa and fifteen hundred people came to see you the first day between two events, you'd have to feel like you were in pretty good shape.

But there is a Donald Trump in this race, and Donald Trump remains the dominant factory is the thing that the person that people talk the most about. I think Iowa voters are open to an alternative. But that alternative, whether it's Rondo Santus or somebody else, is going to have to clear the bar of Iowa voters thinking that they're electable. Right, do you think that Donald Trump would honor not being the nominee? Hilarious question. I mean, I

don't want to predict future results based on past performance. Yeah. Six, And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. This is the thing I don't understand about the current calculus is that if Donald Trump were a normal candidate who said, all right, it's enough. You know, I've lost three times, I'll let the party recover, and you guys, can you chart a new course? But there is no evidence to support the idea that he would do that. No, quite

the opposite. And you know, the Republican Party is somewhat hostage to that. If the belief is that Donald Trump is going to tell his folks to stay home, or he's going to take other action, you know, casting down on the integrity of Republican primis or run is a third party? Right? Well, I think he's less likely to run as a third party candidate for a variety of reasons, including the difficulty of getting on the ballot as a third party candidate. I mean, there's a whole host of reasons.

There are states that have sore loser laws, you know, that make that really difficult. So I think that there's plenty of reason to think he wouldn't actually run as a third party candidate. But that doesn't mean that he wouldn't sink the Republican nominee out of spite. I don't think that's something that's predictable right now. I think he would, you know, sort of gauge what was in his best interest at the time. Wouldn't it be in his best interests?

No matter like, say he gets indicted, which is certainly possible, say he gets indicted, wouldn't it still be in his best interests to continue on this road of running for president? Because at least, you know, if he's not running for president, he's just a normal guy, whereas if he's a candidate, he then has the added protection of being a candidate. There's that. And also, you know, I talked to voters who said that they thought indictment would help him politically. Yeah,

I think that too. So I mean, and you know, there's no reason that he can't run if he's indicted, no reason he couldn't run. Even if you were convicted of something, I don't expect him to go away from the campaign trail, right, Okay, So talk to me about what does Santis was like. The thing that we see in a lot of reporting is that he's Jeb He's not Clinton, Bill not Hillary. I mean, is that true? Or I mean, what did you say? Did he kiss babies? Well? He did. I mean he did some of that sort

of basic retail politicking but felt a little stage. But I guess what I would say is, you know, if you're watching the Santis up close for the first time, he's a pretty polished public speaker, but he's not engrossing. He's not Donald Trump, he's not Bill Clinton, who's got you know, the audience in the palm of his hand.

I think, you know, for his campaign, they would probably like to be something akin to George W. Bush in twenty twenty, where the party just decides it's him and he's got, you know, the sort of combination of natural capabilities and manufactured star power versus Jeff Bush who just got a lot of money and then swandered it because he wasn't very good as a candidate. You know, he wasn't good on the campaign trail. My guess is that Ron de Santis will fall somewhere between the two bushes,

not between two ferns. Mind you, that's somebody else's show. I want to talk to you about W for a second, because everything old is new again, umba. And again, no fan of W. W was a folksy guy. George W. Bush could come over to your house and hang out and you probably have a good time with them. Yeah, have a beer or whatever. Yeah. I mean again, I'm no fan of W. In fact, if anyone's not a fan of w's me. But I do think that there was a sense with WA, and a lot of that

was an affectation. But he did fake folksy very very well. I mean, obviously he's not you know, does it come from folksy? Certainly comes from Pappy and uh, you know, and extreme wealth and privilege. But he seemed like a regular guy and you know, and consistently right even you know, other politicians have met with them. Mean, it's easy to get along with get a really good relationship with Nancy Pelosi. I don't think they just liked each other. As far

as the Santas goes. I mean, there are all these stories that you know, almost anyone you talk to, we'll tell you some story of Ryan de Santa's behaving awkwardly in public, meaning you know, going to an event and sort of sitting in a corner putting fingers. Yeah, there was a report just this week about him eating chocolate pudding with three fingers on an airplane. Yeah, on an airplane, which would put Amy klovichars eating salad with a Combs

story to shame. What kind of pudding was it? Tapioca pudding. I don't know if you know this, but presidential hopeful Mariann Williamson, serious presidential candidate marian Williamson, please insert irony here also had a terrible Boss piece come out this week, and people were saying, well, they're just trying to bring her down because she's a woman, which again, that does happen. It's more unusual to have these stories about men. It's

more unusual to have these stories about men. You know, I don't remember a story about a man eating pudding with so I guess that's that's sort of unprecedented. These tend to be written more about women. There is sort of an angle of misogyny toward the concept that women are tough on their staffs. I think that the bar is different, But that doesn't mean the abuse of men bosses should get a free pass because there's more scrutiny on women, and at the same time, also abusive men

bosses should not get a pass. And a third thing is we should understand that the culture of the work world and the adult work world is that if you're not doing your job, sometimes somebody should tell you that directly. And also sometimes people have difficulty with that. So all of that fan don't need putting with your fingers on an airplane if you're going to run for president, right, that's the overall thing, which is no matter all the

other rules. Don't need putting with your fingers on an airplane past the age of four even then, I mean, if you're planning I'm running for president. So talk to me about you saw DeSantis. He speaks very well, he's quite smart. He's a lawyer. He went to hard already went to Yale, YadA, YadA, YadA. So you got a real sense of him. Tell me about the Trump rally that you want to So the Trump rally, I want it was in a venue that's a little smaller than

Trump usually does. It was inside in a theater that you know, holds somewhere north of two thousand people. This was Trump, you know, doing Trump for two hours. I've seen it before. There's a little fresher. He's got new material stand up, including you know, including some serious policy, uh you know, sort of policy rollouts, baby bonuses, there's baby bonuses. He wants to break up the Department of Education into what fascism and light fascism, well into states

running education. Oh wow, that'll be great, all right, son. But my point is that there's there's actually some substance to what he's talking about, some forward looking substance, whether you agree with it or not. And that's a little bit different. And you know, his crowds are exceptually into what he's doing. You got huge standing ovations, repeatedly, people chanting Adam, what are they chanting? Chanting pro Trump slogans, so like lock her up? No, no, no, no, no, no,

just oh well that's something. Yeah. No, I mean there was no locker up, build a wall and stuff like that. I can't remember. Build the wall was specific one of them. There was definitely USA chants stuff like that. So that what I was gonna say is the one noticeable difference was that when he went after rhyme to Santas by name or by nickname, the sanctimonious, the fact if the crowd was relatively silent, they didn't like it. Oh, or

they certainly didn't love it. They weren't eating it up. Wow. Yeah, has he tried tiny D yet? I have not heard him roll that out. I think that is the thing that ends up killing him, tiny D. I want to stay employed. Molly. Um, that's interesting. So who had bigger crowds? Trump had bigger crowds. He had one crowd and it was bigger than the two crowds that the Sanatas head who had more enthusiastic crowds Trump, So that's pretty interesting.

I think a lot of the people at the Santas rally, and I spoke to a lot of him, were sort of open to the Santas. Certainly the people who were already in his camp showed up, but like there were a bunch of people there that were I guess more than curious but less than committed. They want to hear what he had to say, and some of it they like, and even those really like what he's say saying may still vote for Trump. Right. I mean that I think is the ultimate problem. I also saw this poll laing

and I actually wrote about this this week. Ideologically, a lot of these Republicans would rather win, I mean, would rather have someone they agree with than win. Yeah. I saw that polling. And if you go for somebody you agree with over somebody who will win, typically will find that you no longer like that person you agree with because they've lost an election. Yeah, but that hasn't happened with Trump, right, I mean he's lost three elections. Oh,

you're saying the midterms. Yeah, yeah, I mean the direct correlation from the president or the recent former president to midterm results is fraught. Did he two things that hurt Republicans? Absolutely? Did he lose in twenty twenty, Absolutely, one hundred percent, But not everybody who is a Republican voter believes that he lost fairly Well. That is the other thing I want to talk to you about, because I think that's

really important. There is a not insignificant part of the Republican Party that believes these sort of I think the biggest example of it is carry Lake with her I actually won the governorship. Do you think it serves Republicans And if so, how well? I think it's going to be very hard for her to serve as governor of Arizona and vice president can currently She'll find a way. I don't think that it will serve Republicans, certainly in the long term. I don't think it'll serve them in

the short term. You know, I think election denialism was one of the things that was on the ballot in the mid terms, and generally speaking it was rejected. There were certainly a few places where it wasn't. But like I have to think that that's generally a bad thing

for the Republican Party. And if the Republicans are successful, and let's remember that it's not all the Republicans that are pushing this, and in fact, most Republicans aren't, But if Republicans were to be successful in pushing election denialism, it would be a very bad thing for the country and the world. Yes, let me clarify why I say that, Because anybody pushing election denialism for legitimate election and gaining power, whether Republican, Democrat, or anything else, would be bad for

the country and bad for the world. I want to ask you about this, this Fox polling, because this is pretty interesting. So there is this Fox polling that came out after the Dominion lawsuit, which says that people have lost some faith in Fox. Do you think that's bullshit? That they've seen some stuff about the Dominion stuff. And again, I mean, who knows where they're seeing it, right, because they're certainly not seeing it on Fox. But I mean, what do you what's your hot take on that? I mean,

does that ultimately hurt the brand? I mean I talked to Republican voters at the Trump rally, and you know, for the most part, they hadn't heard of the dominion lawsuit at all, much less what Tucker Carlton and other Fox as were saying in text messages. These people are still diehard Foxers. Well, I mean, I think they're more Trump than Fox. So if there's a split there, I think that Trump retains most of the Trump folks, you know, And I asked people about that too, and that's that's

kind of the response I got. So yeah, I mean, I don't think that Dominion lawsuit and what the Fox folks are saying behind the scenes is going to have much of an impact, in part because Fox News isn't showing right right, right, right, so they're not going to see it. Though I do think when the trial happens, they're going to have a harder time hiding it. I think they'll probably have a harder time. But again, if you get your news from one source and that source

isn't covering something, then you're not going to know about it. Agreed. Agreed. Now I want to ask you, I mean, it does sound like the top line from what you're saying, and I'm just extrapolating here is basically it's Trump's party and if he continues to want it, he can have it. I would give him the advantage right now for winning the Republican nomination. There are more people in the Republican Party who are for Trump than who are for anybody else,

and that makes him the dominant figure. So again, and we've been saying this for a while, like he's less powerful than he probably has been at any point. I don't think that's true though, because February was a good month for him. Maybe he's getting a little stronger, but from his apax has lost power within the Republican Party. And yet he is still by far the most powerful republic Yeah, much more than match. Donald Trump, even out of office, has more certainly has more power in the

Republican Party than Mitch mccamall does. Yeah, unbelievable. I want to ask you, what are you watching now? What are you covering? What's happening now? I would think of you as sort of a person who knows what's going on. I mean, I think that's race by Desantists to get to where Trump is on Ukraine, which is to say, you know, moving away from the US support for Ukraine.

Is fascinating to watch because there's a big split in the Republican Party between you know, the sort of populist, nationalist some would say, isolationist wing represented by Trump and his group, and then the sort of old school establishment defensehawk stet and just kind of watching that develop is going to be interesting. I know most Americans don't vote on foreign policy, but I think sometimes foreign policy can

be a proxy for how you see a leader. But don't you think the calculus and de Santists made was that he couldn't win a presidential primary without Tucker, and so he had to do what he thought Tucker would want. I mean, there's no way the lawyer from Gitmo doesn't believe in this kind of nation building stuff. Yeah, I mean I agree that he feels like he has to move toward Tucker Carlson, but only because Tucker Carlson is where a lot of the bases, which is where Donald

Trump is. I mean, they're all kind of following each other, right, It's a chicken or the egg situation. But to the expect that Ron Sanderson, you know, sort of offers a watered down version of Donald Trump. Like, there's a question

about whether that works. I mean, we just saw in the last Democratic primary how difficult it was for candidates between the poles of Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden, you know, the people in the middle of them till I sort of emerge, right, Like the watered down version of either one of them didn't really work that well. One last question, because we're out of time. Do you think the Biden announces soon? You think he's the nominee? You think Mary

and Williamson takes him out. I think Mary and Williamson will not be the Democratic nominee. Why do you hate women? No, I'm sorry, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, just one, Molly. So maryon Williamson will not be the nominee. Is that what you're saying? Mary? And Williamson will not be the nominee. Joe Biden, as he likes to say, good Lord Willing and the creek don't rise, whatever that means, all other things being equal, Joe Biden will be the nominee. Funny,

Thank you, John Allen, Take care. Andy Krall is an investigative reporter for pro Pablica and author of the new book A Death on w Street, The Murder of Seth Rich and the Age of Conspiracy. Welcome Too Fast Politics, Andy, Great to be here. Thanks for having me this. Leonard Leo. He's not a good guy, is he. He is one of the most influential people that I think most people have not heard of. I'm shocked at the number of folks out there who don't know the name utter Leo.

But when I tell them even a tiny bit about the things he's done, their eyes go big and they sort of gasp, and they sit back in their chair and they say, oh, my god, how have I not heard about this person? And then I say, well, that's what I'm here for. My friend, So explain to us

how you got involved in this. I mean, I'm sitting in my office staring at the computer, wondering how in the year or old Lord twenty twenty three, we are looking at a conservative supermajority on the Supreme Court that seems poised to roll back advancements, a major precedent, a whole range of fixtures of modern life in America, and

wondering how this happened. They're wondering how we got here, How in this time did not just a Supreme Court of the United States, but also so many courts around the country become these real bastions for conservatives, become the venues where attorney generals or private individuals, advocacy groups, whatever can go and try to challenge a firmative action, try to challenge abortion, I try to challenge birth control. I mean,

you name it. And every time I started digging into these questions, they started pointing me back to the work of Leonard Leo. I mean it was kind of shocking in a sense of like, I didn't think that so many of these questions would be answered by looking to this one guy. But again that's why I said, you know, I think He's one of the most overlooked but one of the most influential figures of the last twenty or thirty years in this country. And that is what set

us down the path to looking at them. That is what got us interested in this group, the TENEO Network. That's the focus on our most recent story. So explain to our listeners what this group is. The TENEO Network is a private and confidential, to use their words, network of up and coming conservatives who work in basically every business sector, industry, walk of life that you can imagine.

I mean, I'm not talking just about the light blue blazer khaki tassel loafer set in politics in Washington, d C. But I'm talking about people who work in finance, people who work in energy, people who work at entertainment and media academia across the board. Here, I mean, the way to think about the TENEO Network is jo going back to our friend Leonard Leo. Leonard Leo worked for a

long time at an organization called the Federalist Society. The Federalist Society began as a campus club for conservative law students who felt ostracized, who felt left out, who thought that everyone on their campus was crazy liberals and they needed a place to hang out. So the Ben Shapiros of olden day is the Vetch Shapiros of olden days. The Charlie Kirks, Yes, two people who actually are members

of the Teneo Network, but we'll get to that. So the Federal Society, over a span of thirty years, starts as a campus club, but actually becomes this pipeline for conservative judges, conservative justices, legal minds on the right. I mean, it really is the place where all the big legal battles taking on things like Obamacare, taking on Row, taking on I mean, really any major Democratic or liberal policy

out called the last few years get challenged. And you know where the place right now where five of the nine Supreme Court justices currently on the Court have been Federal Society members in their lifetime and are very close with the organization. So it's this really, this powerful force in American politics, in the legal world for conservatives. The Teneo Network wants to do for the rest of America

what the Federal Society did for the law. That's the most pithy way to put it, and it is it is an audacious thing that they are trying to do. That's pretty chilling. Yeah, yeah, it is. It's it's it's audacious, but they believe that they can do it based on what they've been able to do with the courts, what they've been able to do in the legal world. And so where does this start, Yeah, it starts around two

thousand and seven, two thousand and eight. One of the co founders of Teno is a fellow named Evan Bear, tech entrepreneur, you know, really quick to drop all the startup lingo close personal friend of he who shall not be named Peter Teal, Yes, yep, working at the time in two thousand and seventeen thousand and eight. For Peter Teal, they're having lunch at a Baja Fresh. Very important detail there right in DC. I love a chain, yeah can, and you've got to get the Burrio joined naming there.

And also I feel like a Baja for us in Washington, do you see, because when you go to Washington, you want to eat the local food exactly, the regional delicacies exactly. You know, Peter Tilt and his underlying ov and Bearer complaining about conservatives and complaining about how liberals are so much more powerful than they are etcetera, etcetera. And they say, gosh, you know, the one good thing we have going for us is the Federalist Society or fed SoC as people

call it. Right, what if we did something like that but for tech dudes like us, or for bankers, or for friends who work in the media. And so the idea germinates there. And also, I said, Peter Teal's name sort of president at the creation but actually one of the legal co founders of Tenayo was none other than Josh Holley. Why wouldn't even Yeah, that's just obscure. Well Cloft lawyer of private practice today a United States Senator from Missouri. So the idea begins there. Who has never

lived in Missouri? But sure continue, I guess he lived in Missouri when he was a kid, But he doesn't have a house in Missouri right now. I mean, he's been a creature of Washington politics for quite a long time. But his sister has a country house in the Ozarks, so that counts as we all do, right exactly. So this group to NEO is sort of chubbing along from those humble origins, but it never quite lives up to

it's lofty expectations. That it's going to be the Federalist Society for America for everything else until Leonard Leo comes along. And Leonard Leo in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen is spending a lot of his time advising then President Trump about how to put more judges on the Supreme Court, on the peel's courts, of the district courts. But also Leonard Leo is clearly thinking about the long game. He's thinking

about the future. He sees this group to Neo and basically says, hey, I think I know how to take you guys to the next long I think I know how to actually make this thing work. He's got a decent tract record of doing just that, and you know, he becomes a much more of a driving force with this group, to the point that today he is the chairman of the board. He's helping the group rates money.

He is really trying to take the things that he learned from the legal wars and apply them to the culture wars large and TENEO is the vehicle to do that. So it's a it's a really key part of understanding what this really key figure Leonard Leo is up to. Right now, give us tangible like, for example, the Federalist Society did things like it found young lawyers, it nurtured them, it created them, and then it pushed them to go

for judge ships. It you know, it started with cocktail parties and it ended with you know, five Supreme Court justices. So what is the TENEO group's sort of answer to that? There are a bunch of answers to that, because they are trying to have so much influence across so many different parts of American society. So one of them is a pretty obvious on, which is getting their people elected to higher office. And so you know, there is a TENAIO member named Will Sharf. He calls Letter of his mentor.

He has kicked around conservative activism for a number of years. He's a lawyer, and he's now running for attorney general in Missouri. And that, you know, Missouri Tree general has been a launching point for such people as Josh Holding, Senator. So this is no small thing. And as we've seen in recent years, these these attorney generals can actually have a pretty big impact from that perch in their states. So they can't you know, TENNAIO can sort of bring

along elevate and then you know it's members. The group is a nonprofit, so the group isn't like a superpack. He can't spend money itself, right, But the idea that this is a nonprofit when it really does have a political motive is is pretty crazy because that's not what profits are supposed to be. Yeah, and you know, they were very very adamant when we were doing all of the fact checking and everything on the story. And then like they don't bake, don't TENAEO itself does not make donations.

They don't have a pack. You know, they're about education blah blah blah, but they make donations and kind and their members make donations. Will Scharf has donations from Leonard Leo, from again TENEOE co founder Evan Baar, from other senior people in the group. So you know, it's not like Taneo is doling out cash, but it's it's a pretty similar thing because Will Scharf can go to his friends and say, hey, like support me from my campaign and

they'll donate. So you know, it's the springboard for people to run for office, but they're not paying taxes. I think what is important here is that this is being set up the same way that like a charity to help homeless children, as they're at the same tax structure as that five O, one S three D profit. That is correct. So like you could give money to helping homeless children, or you could give money to something that

is the Federalist Society for Everything else. Yeah, you could give money to an organization that says it's one of its goals is to quote unquote roll back or crush liberal dominance quote across American life. So should that be a non I mean, not to get all sticky in the irs here for a minute, but shouldn't that not be a nonprofit? I mean, it definitely seems to walk up close to the line when you're talking about crushing

liberal dominance, when you're talking about elevating young conservatives. I mean, doesn't seem the same as helping homeless children. No, it does. It doesn't seem the same as the Red Cross or

ye visiting nurses doctors without borders. But right exactly. Then again, that you know one thing, I'm glad you brought that up, that you because you know, one really important thing to understand about Leonard Leo is that he has really maximized they can the amount of money he can raise into nonprofit organizations, so the sort of the charities that we are just talking about, and then they're slightly more political siblings.

These are also known as five odenc force. Leonard Leo has mastered the art of using these nonprofit organizations, using tax exempt organizations to move money around to support people who are going to be judges, to in some cases support political organizations like the Republican Attorneys General Association. This is a trademark technique of his that he again has done and really mastered for twenty years. At this point in TENEO is clearly another piece of the puzzle for

him and the child. There's an irs that actually has the ability to take a hard look at nonprofits on the right, the left, wherever. You know this kind of stuff is going to continue, Yeah, I mean it certainly sounds like it. So we have a lot of listeners who listen to this program who are curious as what they can do. What the sort of way back from

something like this is good question. I mean, I think the first thing to know is to know that this thing exists and to understand that the guy who helped architect the conservative Supreme Court is still very much in the game, and that he is looking to extend his influence well beyond the courts. You know, a key part of what TANEO is trying to do is trying to have influence in the local level and the state level.

There's a bit of the piece that we reported about how TANEO is mapping out, as they put it, these

different institutions in big cities. They're looking at Atlanta in a couple of places in Texas based out of recording, mapping out the key institutions and then trying to either get their own people into those institutions so that start to change them, or if there're people are already there to let everyone else know, Hey, like we have all a bunch of our friends are in the country clubs or the newspapers, rotary or whatever in these big cities.

So if you're someone who cares about this stuff, it's a reminder that your local institutions are a big part of you know, how this country moves in one direction

or another. And if you care about the direction of not just the country writ large, but you know your your own town, your city, your state, you know you've got to be involved in some of these things that maybe they seem parochial, maybe they seem awfully small ball compared to the United States Supreme Court, but they do matter and the people who you know, if you're a progressive person, then you don't agree with the Conservatives, you

or the Conservatives are organizing at that local level. That's a key part of this story that we've published. So you probably want to be organized in your own participating and organized in your own cities as well, because the other side, if you will, is doing that very thing. I want to ask you sort of one last question, which is how does Peter Teal figure into all of this. Teal is clearly an intellectual godfather of this organization. He was there again, as we said, at the creation of it.

You know, we didn't find, at least in the reporting for this story that he is on the board. He's not listening on the board. Well that's something. Yeah, he's not. You know, his presence didn't seem particularly overt, but I would not be surprised if he was, you know, a sort of an ally as what they call the sort of like non member supporters of the group. And clearly, you know a lot of the people that we write

about in this group are acolytes of Teals. You know, this TENO network I found really fascinating because it's a glimpse of the conservative vangor. It's a glimpse at young conservatives who they are, where they are, what their worldview. And really it's this more sort of desantist style, kind of populist, powerful state, anti woke ideology. It's different from Trumpism, if there is such a thing as Trumpism, and it's certainly different from Reaganism, which is small government at all costs.

And Teal is very much an intellectual leader and a funder in a lot of ways of that vanguard. Gd Vance is a ten NaIO member. Gd Evance, of course, yes, is in the videos that we obtained for this story. And I personally think J. D. Evans is someone I know your listeners are watching him, but watch him closely. I think he is as much a leader of this new conservative vanguard as a Josh Holly or a Desantist.

And here's a stupid question. I'm always like, like, want to give these people a chance because I'm an idiot, but I'm just curious, like Vance was, I mean again, I want to think the Advance is less evil than the rest of them, despite all of his behavior to the contrary. All right, that's it. That wasn't a question. But he's not. I mean it sounds like he's not. He's undergone a really fascinating evolution. You know, he is not the jade evance of yester year. Yeah, of yester

year of the VC world. I don't think he's even the jade evance of hill Billiology at this point. You know, he really is this sort of anti woke of strong government conservative kind of you know, there's a populous strain in there, but it's hard to see where it goes.

And certainly very much anti woke. You know, him winning a Senate seat in Ohio, which though it has pushed to the right quite a bit, is still a decent bellweather for the country, I think very much puts him on the national map as much as any of these other folks who have stepped forward, whether it's de Santists or Haley, you name it. And you know, I think Vance is very much at the Van Guarden. I think it is not that sort of feel good populism hillibeliology

of the past. It is stronger and and a bit darker than that. It's pretty dark. Yeah, thank you so much. Andy. I hope you will come back. I hope you'll have me back. I love this podcast and it's a pleasure to be on it. No, Molly jun Fast, Jesse Cannon. You know those like defend New Orleans, defend shirts. I'm going down to marrow Lago and I'm making some that say defend Marlago because we're gonna surround the place to keep President Trump from being arrested. I love this because

it's so stupid. But also what if we use trappers to circule event the Patriot Moat? Everything have to be patriot, That's what it says on this four jam to be Patriot. Remember what we did that interview where Trump wid to fill the book, make a moat at the border wall and have alligators in it. What do you think it's going to be at this mote? Do you think like they're just going to fill it with some of the

bis quick from the Omelet station. If it were me and I was in charge of a moat, I would put um piranhas in a moat because I feel like, oh, good, good, good, right, if you're going to have a moat. You might as well have a really vicious fish in your moat. I like this as a career pivot for you, vote interior desider. A lot of these Republicans want to take us back to the dark ages, and in most ways they're wrong.

But I'm open to moats. Okay, what do we think you one day get one for your future country house. That's right. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to your the best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.