Lt. Gov. John Fetterman, Jeet Heer & Ruth Ben-Ghiat

But first we're joined by one of our faves, geet Here, who's of course the host of the podcast The Time of Monsters and a writer at The Nation. Welcome too, Fast Politics, geet Here, and congratulations on the new show, which is a smash hit. And uh, I know you will credit the algorithm, but the number one on the charts is uh not a small thing that your your mother was a number one bestseller and now you're a

number one podcasting Modern life. Baby, it's all happening. Um. So I was really excited to talk to you because it's just such a strange and kind of interesting time in American life and also in Italian life. Yes, I try to look at the positives, so one positive aspect. You can look at the visits the nineteen twenties all over again, the European the dollaris are law. You can live as the next beat guys working around in stuff. But um, you know, we're exactly six weeks or a

little less than six weeks till the mid terms. The American Republican Party, I mean, they're trying to get their message together. Let's cut to the tape. That's what's happening in the United States House. Republicans just spelled out what they're running on. It's a document called the Commitment to America. It's fine, probably not much, and that you disagree with it. Have you heard of it? No, you probably haven't. Probably haven't read it. Nobody really cares why because there's nothing

real in it. There's not a single word in that document about the attacks on the American family that you see every day. That's at the center of most people's concerns. How are my kids. Will they have a life that resembles mind that was called the American dream? Does it still exist? Will they be able to afford to live the way they grew up? Will they have the opportunities that we had. No people are upset about that. Why wouldn't they be, But nobody says it. You gotta love

Chuck A. Carlson. I mean you don't, and nor should you. Well, you don't have to love it. But I think that he is onto something, which is I think one of the problems that Republicans are having. I mean, I still expect them to, you know, win the House unfortunately, but they are having a bit of trouble getting the wave that they might have been able to expect, you know, considering people's worries about inflation. But there's really no message.

And I think one problem is that the official Republican Party of like McCarthy and them, are still they're like about ten or fifteen years behind. Like they're they're trying to do the contract with America. You know, I gave you a contract that didn't work out. Now I'll give you a commitment. I'm willing to commit to you. Are you willing to commit? Uh? You know, like I've I've

got no o where my commitment issues. But as Tucker I think rightly says, it's not real like that agenda that old you know, like Reagan Gingridge agenda has kind of fallen to the wayside for a bunch of reasons. One is that it's just, you know, like after the Great Recession, that sort of trickled down economics is only popular among like very wealthy people, which they already have.

But to actually juice up where Republicans are excited about and where people on the Reagan general are excited about, we have to have the real red meat of you know, like private identity politics, immigration, bomb threats to hospitals exactly, and the anti trend stuff. And I think what Tucker is sort of gesture towards is that he feels that, like to excite the Republican base, you kind of have to have more red meat. And I think some people

like the Santis are trying to offer that. But but so far, you know, I haven't seen a sort of coherent message, although maybe I mean, you know, usually what they do in every October that's an even here is you know, you have the caravan, you have some sort of weird foreign disease like a vola. You know, they are trying to like rat ratchet up the fear. And I think this year like they start doing the sort of crime stuff. But it seems to like lack authenticity.

I mean, I noticed that dude king Ridge was suggesting that Federman in Pennsylvania is a crypt. Now I don't know much like you know, like John Fetterman, I can say with some certainty is not a member for the Blood. No. No,

like even like to bring up the crip. I mean, I don't know that to me, like that seems like an old person thing is an old guy, right, but like you know, like it's kind of like well, you're watching you know, Boys in the Hood, and you know, he didn't get the message that m S thirteen's the new scare tactics like newer gangs. I mean, like a program guy. I just like anyways, I don't think that fitter and as a crip is very convincing or that.

And I thought, like, you know, the whole focus on the tattoos, which I'm sure you'll get into when you talk to him again, Like you know, like I'm sorry, but look around, like have you gone to like shopping mall or like you know, like how many cashiers are just people walking around have tattoos. I mean, like it's not like the frightening thing that it might have been. In like nineteen seven or whenever was the last time,

you know, you had a coherent thought. I just feel like, I mean, maybe I'll be to optimistic, and I do. I don't think you could never understimate, you know, the potency of what I like to call uga buka politics. You know, right, scary people out there, non white people out there. You know they're gonna do that. They're doing that. They're you know, trying to willy important various Democratic candidates. And but again it doesn't, it doesn't. I don't know.

I mean, it's weird to me that they've sort of stopped talking about inflation, right because the gas prices have gone down, so they've decided they can't do it anymore. Yeah, So just like it doesn't seem like so they're they're doing like you know, Contract with America revived. They've you know, dug up new tanguage from the crypt and given him some sort of special um beticit that allows him to enter date like the world. I don't think that it's

coming together for them. And I think the polls, and I think the poll that the special elections that we've seen kind of back this up. I mean, they they'll they'll win some things, but they're not going to get the way they wanted, and the Democrats could hold onto the Senate, which I think is really important is this contract from America. Look, they've been trying everything they could.

They were gas prices, gas prices, gas prices, and then gas prices for ninety three days went down, so they were like, okay, we have to pivot from gas prices. So they went to um border, which is like their favorite thing. But you know, again, like how you can do you know, be like the borders such a problem, immigration such a problem when you have this tight, tight labor market and declining birthrates and you have Tucker Carlson like every other day saying like, you know, how are

we going to keep our population our population up? I mean it's hard to say like that. There's not enough America for everyone. So I think crime is usually where they land. But it just in my mind, it's so interesting that, you know, when we read there was a piece of the Time today about how you know the Republicans are now going to double down on crime. I mean, I do think they're spending more than Democrats and that will help them. They are even there, it's there, there's

so many issues with their fundraising as well. Part of this Trump has you know, basically stolen a lot of money that was supposed to be stared among the party, partially because some of their candidates are not like super

great raising vans in Ohio. And then then also this sort of dispute between Peter Till and Mitch McConnell, which I think is very significant that McConnell thinks like, well, Til is like, you know, a multi billionaire, and he's created some of these candidates and he's basically he generated them out of a vap Otherwise, like mastards would not exist there, like the little homoculos that the mad scientists made. And uh and uh, Mitch McConnell quite properly, I think

I'm with the old crew on this one. Uh. So you're bringing these guys you've wonder and tele is like looking at the poll numbers and thinking like, Okay, I'm a billionaire, but I'm not like a sucker, you know. You know, McConnell. Flavor that not to underestimate the amount of money the Republicans have. They have a lot of other billionaire and they are spending a lot of money to try to um, tighten the races and you know, hit on these crime issues, you know, like and then

they will have some value. I mean I think that, you know, especially coming out of the big protests, there's a lot of what they appeal to is the Revokan base that a lot of people in that Werevokan based looked at the protests coming out of George Floyd about like America's burning down, you know, and they believe what they're here on Fox News, which is they literally if you talk to them, think that like you know, like entire cities have been burnt to the ground, right, and

so they will believe the crime stuff. But I mean again, that's seems to be about juicing up the base, and I don't know how much that gets you. I mean, I think that there's every interesting election, well we'll see. I mean, I'm I'm hoping just based on the special elections that the Democrats can like pull it out. Uh you know. Obviously abortion is you know, like the big thing, and that is uh helping the Democrats um a lot

in terms of you know, getting their voters out. If I were like a Democrat, I would like just laid on the line just saying the only path forward is to like have Democrats if you want to, like you know, get back to row. And if you give us you know, like fifty two fifty three in the Senate will immediately quotify role. And more importantly, you know, like if the Republicans control the Senate, you're not going to see another

Democratic judge again, like they have that. Like you know, like a comet could wipe out the Supreme Court and the Republicans would be just like, well, we don't need a Supreme Court. It was true. But you know, yesterday they did blow up a comet. NASA did so that ended another way that I hoped we might all and well, yes, but I'm disappointed that they did not use the time tested method that the movies have taught us of hiring Bruce Willis and a team of oil riggers to uh

and uh nuclear bomb. And but you think what you can get right exactly. I think that's a good point. But yeah, I mean we do have this Republican Party just scrambling to figure out a way to run. I mean it's like you're running on a mid term where you haven't you have no policy, and also you have no Trump right for so long, they haven't had any policy,

but they haven't cared because they've had Trump. And now they know that Trump doesn't win them in the in the Purple States, and they so they're trying not to use him, but they also don't have any policy. Yeah. No, I I think that they are like much weaker than

one would have expected. And yeah, I think, I mean, I think in the long run, like Trump was able to gooset their numbers and a few crucial places in six but I mean, in the long run, it is a kind of losing bat And I mean in some ways, I think that's like the most optimistic take that eventually the number of people that the alienate by taking on Trump will anything else. I don't know, We'll we'll see.

I mean I do think that, you know, the Democrats and then also anyone who wants American democracy to survive it has to be harping on this message that like, you know, this is a trump iised party and the only way they're gonna move away from that is if they keep losing election after election, right, and then one can hope, like you know, in ten years, they'll the you know, um, if you bang your head against them, all long enough, like at some point you're gonna realize

that's not what you should be doing. Well that and I mean that's what Liz Cheney basically said at the Texas Trip Festival, right. She said that as much as she hates Democrats, and we don't like her either, but that the only way that Republicans are ever going to get sane again is by losing. Yeah, I think that's right.

And I think that's actually like not a bad message for a lot of like sort of swing voters who might have some Republican inclination and and want a saying Republican party and they'ren't happy with where things are going. But I mean, I think those people are at the margins and they give you the when you have at

a few places. More broadly, I think that you know, like a lot of regular Democrats who might sit out the mid term, Like, I think the message has to be going out there about the stakes, which you know, like I think the Dobbs decision really did make the stakes very clear. And I think the persistence of Trump and everyone's sense of where the Republican Party is going

makes it all all clear. So I'm hoping, you know, one can never predict, but you know, best case scenarios like a really strong Democratic U turnout as well, um, and that can offset a lot of the Ugo Buka politics on crime. And you still have this Republican Party that is continuing its flirtation with q and on, well not just flirtation. I would say that they've gone to second base. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Sure? Yeah, I mean you just see Donald

Trump his rallies, just have to see it. It used to be like he would like wink, like you know, like kind of used a phrase like the storm is coming. But it's more and more like his rallies are qun on events, and it's because like you know, he's desperate for support and for like he meets, he's doing his own fundraising. Those are the hardcore people, the whole que on thing. And I think that it's interestingly, you know, like it all started with things like pizza Gate and uh,

you know, conspiracies about Democrats and Hollywood liberals. But now it's it's merged with the election stuff, right like the q no on staff and the election, the election was stolen. It's a kind of like you know, it's an evolving mythology, and that's where it's landed on. And so yeah, I mean it's very strinking that Trump is now more qute

on than he's ever been. And once he's at his rally, like you know, the very disturbing images once people giving what looks like a Hitler so well that that was actually like us bad, there's a q wonder how you ever get people back from that? That's a really good question. I don't know if the individuals, like I don't know, I mean, one hears sort of heartbreaking stories of people who have like okay, they can't talk to their parents anymore or their siblings. I look at this institutional thing

rather than a personal thing. I don't know, you know, any individual person, maybe the people who know them can work try to convince them, but like on a larger scale, the only thing that can work is if the Republican Party, like again, loses the reflections that they realize this cute thing is a loser and we have to separate it out. Um. I mean, I think the biggest historical parallel is the

John Birch Society, which has never disappeared. It's still around, but I mean it was really, really big in the early sixties and it helped Barry Water win his nomination. And people now say, well, he just he and Reagan distanced themselves, but they just themselves after like Goldwater lost, like after he lost big and sixty four. You know, Republicans realized, you know, like they need to keep an arms there in some place like Utah. They were so powerful,

but they became more marginal. And I think I think there's some value in losing elections. You know, there's some defeat. Is a great teacher. Yeah, let's hope that's what happens. Gee, thank you so much for joining us. I hope you will come back regularly. Oh, I'm always happy for a fast time. Thank you. John Fetterman is the Democrat nominee for Pennsylvania Senate and the current Lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania. Welcome to Fast Politics, Jon Fatterman, It's so wonderful to

be here. So my first question for you was the as campaign said that had you had vegetables, you wouldn't have had a stroke. Can you talk to us about like that kind of victim blaming that and how odd it is to see that from a doctor. It's not something that really hit with me personally. I mean I wasn't shocked. I mean, this is a man that had a whole career of willing to say and sell anything you can to try to make a buck. And you'll say in you know, pedal cruelty to try to win

a race. And if he believes that's his story, he needs to tell it the way he needs to. But if I may have the ability to ask your own or your listeners, you know, have any of you, you know, whether you or anyone listening, have you had your own health crisis or have you had a major challenge you know, well, your parents, your grandkids, your children, you know, parents, anyone. When I make those kind of questions to people at events and when on the campaign trail, two thirds to

three quarters of the hands go up. And I think it's a very, very big bet that Dr Oz and the campaign is placing on going after me very having somebody that nearly died from having a stroke thinks that's a good winning strategy. I don't believe that a strong or principal campaign would choose to say, you know what, making fun of a stroke patient is a winner. And then I think it's reflective of the kind of his his character. I think it's a reflective of the kind

of race that he is in right now. And I believe that desperation is the worst cologne. If you're the kind of person that responds positively and say, yeah, that's funny, then those are the kind of people that aren't gonna be opening to vote for us either way. But like I said, I will never respond in cruelty with cruelty or run the kind of negative campaign. We're just gonna run a very clean campaign talking about the Partnsylvania voters.

That's how we're continuing. But it is interesting right now, in a time of post COVID or actual COVID, to blame a victim for their illness, right. Yeah. Again, It's just it's bizarre to me. I'm always rooting for anybody. I don't care what their politics are. I don't care anything. It's like, if you have COVID, or if you have cancer, or you have any kinds of issues, it's like we should be we're on the team. We're on the same team.

We need to be rooting for anybody. And I don't understand why anybody because I promise you you will have a health challenge visit your life, you know, and making fun of somebody or judging someone. I don't think that's gonna really wear very well on you when when it's the you know, when when one visits for you and and we keep pushing forward, and it's it's not easy

running to have somebody that had a stroke. Absolutely, but I'm so grateful to be here, and I'm so grateful that I received the kind of care that saved my life. And I would want and I would have the same for every person, every American. And I want to make that a very big part of our campaign to just how critical that our health care situation in Pennsylvania and in pencel and in America is one that needs to

be addressed. And it's certainly not gonna be made better by having a doctor mocking somebody that nearly died for from a So talk to me about your recovery. You've been pretty clear that you have still some auditory issues. Can you talk a little bit about that and what you're doing to help yourself. Definitely, every day I'm always feeling better and better, and things that I have to understand that that it's gonna take some time for my brain to fully be okay with with these auditory processing,

you know, and my hearing as well. I'm so grateful. You know, I've always been able to drive. I never lost any memories. I always understand the reality of things. I I'm not having any other issues that sometimes I may not hear anything or I might will need some captioning to make sure I fully hear and understand what's being asked or what's asked of me. And the recovery has been going, it's been remarkable. I'm I'm so grateful in that as long as continues gets better and better.

The doctors believed that I will continue to get better and better. But it's really helped me expand, you know, being even more empathetic. You know, I always thought I was a very empathetic person, but you know, before the stroke.

But now I also understand too that there are challenges that millions of Americans have, especially a lot of them in Pennsylvania, and we need to make sure that we always must be kind, we always must be understanding, and we need to make sure that we're supporting those individuals as well too. And I can't be so grateful to all the support I get from people going everywhere, all around, everywhere,

no matter red or blue county. Here in Pennsylvania, people have always liked boom, Yeah, way to go, you're doing well. Everything's great. Things that things are great, and no one in my person has chosen to make fun of that, you know, And I think that means that it's easy to say mean or nasty things on social media or behind, you know, hiding behind your your campaign, actually saying one to one it's like you really deserve this, or it's funny or ha ha ha. I refused to you only

respond by just being grateful to be here. As has said that he thinks abortion is murder. This is a pretty out there thing for a medical doctor to say. Talk to me about where your campaign is on abortion. Yeah, it's it's it's also it's also the truth. It's not me distorting his words or lying about his record or saying anything like that. It's it's simply just you know, the truth is that he said it was every abortion is a murder. And and I ask him of just well,

what exactly does that? And if if everyone is every abortion is a murder, then means that that every woman that chose to have an abortion must be called the killer. Then you know, if if if it's a murder, then you must be a killer in order to choose an abortion. And how any woman, how any woman you know, could understand or defend or support an individual that believe that

every abortion is a murder, you know. And I can't get my head around that as as a man, So I can only imagine as a woman with that must have been, you know, to have somebody to say that. And that's a very stark choice that we have here in this race. We have somebody that will do whatever they can't vote and take away abortion rights. And I will stand and will do anything, whether it's getting rid of the filipbuster or whatever that is to codify Roe v.

Wade back here. And and I understand Dr Oz might be a joke, but it's not funny. And abortion is on the ballot, you know, And no one takes a clown seriously. But if you can give a clown a vote, then you got to take that seriously. And you need to respond that by supporting the kind of candidates like myself that will always lean in and make sure that abortion rights are preserved and fought for. So you've agreed

to debate Oz. You know, was Oz is like thing where he would sort of you know that he won't debate. He won't debate, debate, he won't debate. So now you've agreed to debate, and Oz is mad because he still feels your dodging debates. Explain this to me, Oh, no, he actually hasn't a debate, you know, like that's he's just he's desperate word for I mean, he keeps throwing anything he can up against the wall, uh, to try

to find that one thing that really resonates. And and the truth is is that we've always said we're gonna have a debate. We are negotiating on when the debate debate's gonna have and we did. And also it's the history in Pennsylvania senate races, everyone has a debate in the mid to late October, which, oh my gosh, that's exactly when we're happening one. And it was it was just a distraction because he didn't want to talk about abortion, he didn't want to talk about his record on lying.

And it's it's absolutely remarkable. You know, I don't know how many people can say in their lives that they've had a lie. So much powerful that they had to pay a fine in excess of five million dollars. That takes a special kind of talent to get to that point.

And that's really the truth. And we wouldn't expect anything less from Dr Oz lying about my record, even so having to pay over five million dollars for selling magic diet pills and all kinds of other absurd things, things that you wouldn't even agree is the truth if you actually have a listen of things that he actually hocked on his show, that everything he does is lies. So Dr Oz has not really given a straight answer on January six, Can you talk a little bit about that?

Doctor Oz will not give you a straight answer depending on what room he's in. In one room, he says, I have no objection, you know, Joe Biden one and then and if he's on Fox, if he's on Fox News, you know, simping for Maga, he's gonna be like, well, we don't have all the evidence, you know, we don't know exactly um, and it depends on any of those things true. And it's like, you know, John Vetterman is soft on crime, but he supports pardnering the insurrections from

January six. You know that we're police officers if people were died, and and you know, trying to overturn an action. So it's it's just bizarre. He will say whatever he needs to say in the situation to arrive at a place where he gets the most you know, elections, or the most money or the most endorsement whatever. But and with the irony is is that nobody believes him. Mega doesn't believe him, Pennsylvanians don't believe him. And Dr Oz doesn't have any real supporters. He has voters, he'll get

plenty of votes, but nobody actually is a supporter. And I have not genuinely encountered by one single Pennsylvanian that's like, I love this guy. I can't wait to vote for him. You know, look out, you know. And in fact that was born out in in the polls of Republicans were happy with who they chose or they're happy with Can you imagine a restaurant and going to a restaurant where the people eating there, you know, are only one to actually eat what's on this plate, but because the only

place in talent, they have to eat there. And he's got an R after his name, and people understand and that nobody believes what Dr oz says, regardless if you're MAGA or your regular people, or you're anyone. Because he spent an entire life flying, he might be popular in New Jersey. No, that's the truth, not even like people have always reached out to us on social media that

you know, you know, nobody likes us in New Jersey either. Uh, and that's another thing he lies, you know, Like you know, I put I put Pennsylvania to the question, what's worse a fake Pennsylvania a resident, a fake farmer, or a

fake doctor? You know which one? And then really, in Dr oz Is case, it's all of all the above, is the answer, you know, whether it's getting a fifty dollar tax rebate, pretending that he's a farmer with one of the homes that he bought here in Pennsylvania, or lying that he lives in New Jersey, which again, why why not lie about where you live? Because it's bizarre and surreal, But that's really the guy who he is.

So you hired two people who have been wrongly convict did and jailed, and then the ods campaign said that they were criminals. Can you just talk a little bit about this story because I feel like it's such an important story about criminal justice. And I think it's important, absolutely, absolutely, you know, Lee and Dennis Horton that you know, and you know, as chair of the Board of Partments here

in Pennsylvania's the chair. You know, I made the point to make sure that these innocent men were free, who spent nearly thirty years in prison. They had perfect records, They've always maintained their innocence, you know, throughout their entire and the actual warden of the prison said begging me, you gotta let these men out, you know, unanimously, everyone from the secret of the Secretary of Corrections all the way down to the guards all said let them out.

They don't belong in here in prison. And I made that fight, and and all along that I always under stood that these goals are gonna, you know, use that against me, that I'm handing them the next attack ads, and I refuse to ever try to to to change, you know, my a new title for my conscience, and I will always fight for what is the right thing.

And and again we understood, you know, I always understood that this was going to be weaponized against me, and and it is and I stand up, and I pushed back, and I dared Dr oz Uh to make a real, actual stand because he hasn't done one his entire career. Okay, I have one last question for you, doctor oz In two thousand eighteen, voted in Turkey. Yeah, I saw that, but I mean he's the only one that needs to

explain to that. I I really don't know. He's still on the he's still on the voter rolls in New Jersey, doctor oz and residency his has been elusive except actually in Pennsylvania. And that's really the truth. And there's nothing wrong with living in Turkey or living in New Jersey. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think there's something wrong with trying to run for the sense of you know,

Pennsylvania Senate. And we've always talked about that, and you know, how can you fight for Pennsylvania if you have never lived in Pennsylvania or understand Pennsylvania. There's really not any way that you can relate to that. So you feel good and ready to go and serve in the senator

elected absolutely most people and understand that true. And thankfully, I hope, I hope every one of your listeners, if you had a major health challenge, didn't have a doctor in your life making fun of you or saying that you're not you know, it shouldn't be able to work, and all these things. But unfortunately I have a doctor

in my life saying that thing. And if we don't do what we need to do here in Pennsylvania, everyone in Pennsylvania and across the country, you're gonna have a doctor for six years that are gonna make fun of your health conditions and making sure that you are a murderer if you choose get an abortion. So a lot here at State. Thank you so much, John, Thank you so much for having me on. I'm so well. The

feelings mutual. Thank you. Ruth ben Giott is a columist at MSNBC and the author of Strong Men Mussolini to the present Welcome Too Fast Politics. Whereas, thank you and delighted to be there. I mean, we saw this election coming. Can you just give our listeners a little backstory about what has happened in Italy? Yeah, so this election basically the far right managed to make the kind of technocratic centrist government fall, which it's easy to do in Italy

to make governments fall. Customer positions, and they knew in doing that that they had risen the far right, the Brothers of Italy Party of Georgia Maloni and her two partners of these highly racist and authoritarian parties, the League and Sylvie Belusconi's forts Fort's Italia. They knew that, in particular Maloney's party was really on an upswing and so if they had elections, this is the snap election, right.

This is because Mario Droggy, he recused himself from reelection. Yes, many people were lamenting this because they had a feeling that the outcome would be what it indeed it has been. And yet you could say that this was perhaps inevitable because the Brothers of Italy party, which is a neo fascist party, um got of the vote and with the other two parties, uh, you know, it's over. And so there's many stories to be told here, but one is the failure on the part of the center left. And

there's some lessons for the states in this. That's right to form a coalition. Right, they did not ally, either with other leftist parties or with this other this populist five Star party. They didn't do that. There also seen as too elitists, and two establishment no longer speaking to people's the working class, which is a big deal in Italy.

You know, Italy had the largest left wing parties in all of Western Europe and socialists, the Communist Party and now and then it had fascism, and now it has a prime minister, the first woman to serve as prime minister, and the first person with direct contacts with neo fascism. She comes out of neo fascism, this Georgia Miloney. Right. So one of the things you talked about in your article in the Atlantic, and then you've just had an

article in MS too. But your article in the Atlantic, he talked about how these people, the former head of the party had said, we are all al Duce, right, yeah, so he said we're This is this guy in not a Nazio Larusa, who is vice president of the Senate right now. So this and he's also a party elder

for head of the party. And so the message is that ever since bare Lusconi brought neo fascists into the government, you know, off and on in the two thousands and first, the far right has been normalized and accepted as part of it's a it's a it's an acceptable choice for Italians in a way that is totally different than in Germany.

So this guy who says we are all heirs of the duche, which is a move which is not only legitimizing fascism and Musslini, but also kind of downgrading and delegitimizing that we're all heirs of the resistance which created postwar Italy got rid of fascism. This is being done by somebody who's a vice president of the Senate. Jesus, So let's talk about this. A lot. The right has jumped into defending uh, this new girl boss Allini as a sort of you know, a f anist win. Explain

to us why she is actually not a feminist win. Yes, so like you know Marine le Penn, like Catalin Novak who was Minister of Family and Hungary and now is president of Hungry. It's a figurehead. These are women who purport to be valorizing women, respecting their rights and their position in society. Uh, not not being denigraded by being

gay or trying to be feminists. And they claim that they are um the friends and supporters of women, and what they actually do, as we know, is takeaway or complicate access to women's reproductive rights, and so Brothers of Italy, we can look at what the party's already done in places where it's been governing on the local level, you know how, like we're looking at Texas here, we're looking at Florida to see these are rehearsals by discientists what

they'd like to do. Nationally. We can look at Verona, which was declared a pro life city, which is governed by Moloney's party, and so they it's important. Abortion was a very hard one victory abortion rights because at least different than any other country, it's got the Vatican in the middle of it sitting there. So eight after a long battle by feminists, they got the right to abortion. So she claims she's not going to take it away. But as you know nowadays, even like you keep elections,

you just make it difficult for people to vote. So what she's doing, they've been doing is restricting access to abortion services. Um doctors have the right to be conscientious objectors in Italy and to say this is the Catholic influence that they don't want to perform abortions or give the day after pill. But they've been pressured in the

areas that her party governs not to do that. So some of this is very familiar to the unfolding American scenario, right when the right defends them, which they really have picked this, I mean, Steve Scalise was was, I mean, they've really picked an odd bedfast. I mean it's not an odd bed fellow. But just explain to our listeners how exactly they are fascist? Well, and yes, the line that everybody is following, and it's not just in America,

that is that that she's a conservative. And Maloney herself, especially with foreign journalists, she tries to whitewash her fascism, saying that she's just a conservative, she stands for patriotism and the family, blah blah blah. But this is a party that dates back to fascism. Yes, the talking points are the same of this global right that stretches from

Moscow to Budapest. But in the case of Italy, the Brothers of Italy was created as a party in two thousand twelve because um the existing extreme right party had fused with Beer Lusconi's party, which had a lot of let's say traditional conservatives in it. That meant that there was no at aonymous real neo fascist party. So Maloney and lad Usa and others founded one just so they could carry on the neo fascist tradition. And it's very important.

It's not just symbolic their self proclaimed fascist they are. That's why lad Usa says, we're all heirs of the duce He's and so so it's not just that you know their clips circulating that. In the ninety nineties, when she was head of the neo fascist student movement, she said, you know, MUSLINI was a great politician. It's that It's also yes, yes, that's bad, but you could say, okay, that was like years ago. But when they founded this new party, if you look at the logo, there is

a flame in it to tri color flame. So some people are trying to say, oh, yeah, it's just like the flag. No, it's not the flag. That flame is the same logo as in the original neo fascist party that was founded when Mussolini's party was banned, and she insisted, this is what's interesting. Some people in her party said we should get rid of that flame, it's kind of outing us. She insisted on keeping it, and even Missolini's granddaughter Kele, who is a politician in her Party wanted

to get rid of that flame. It's the wink wink thing. Oh we're fascist, but we're not going to say we're fascist. And Instaid Maloney is the hard She's hardcore and she insisted to this day on keeping that flame in there. And I think that's highly significant because she is carrying forth. Her mission is to carry forth this far right tradition into government, and they've always wanted to get back into government since the fascist years, and now now they are.

She joined the Fascist Party when she yes. I really can't emphasize enough. This is somebody who was a hardcore and we didn't call them skinheads, but this is the equivalent of what she was. She joined a fifteen and she had a meteoric rise. He's very, very tough, she's very extreme, and so she became It was a big deal that a woman became the head of the student organization. And in my Atlantic piece I linked to I thought, you know, okay, let's really go and see what this

party is about. And so you always want to go to the student wings of these parties because they are more radical and you find stuff that you don't find in the kind of attempting to be mainstream regular platform. So if you go to the homepage of the of the site, and I linked to it in the Atlantic article, the graphic is of young people silhouetted raising their arms. Now it's the wink wink thing, because are they doing a fascist salute their arms are raised, or they just

like at a pop concert or whatever. But she comes from a real militancy and my also in the NCBC piece, I linked to a terrifying speech she gave this past June at a rally in Spain of the far right Fox Party. If you listen to it, you don't even need to know Spanish. She is a demagogue. She's screaming, she's haranguing, she's putting forth this black and white worldview. And I truly, I don't say this slightly. She truly reminded me of Mussolini. I wrote a book on fascist propaganda.

I've spent so many hours looking at Mussolini speaking and it's really disturbing. And she did speak at Spak to Yes. So it's really important that, and there's been some reluctance to do this in the States, that the GOP is not only remaking itself as an authoritarian party with all the things we see going on, pushing out moderates, encouraging extremists to come in. But they are part of a

transnational far right network. And Maloney and I have the quote in the Atlantic article or not actually in the MSPC. It says very matter of factly that we see the GOP as one of our own. They're like, you know, or Bons Party, They're like the Published Party. And so she's long been a presence in American far right politics.

She's been to see Pack, she's been to the National Prayer Breakfast, She's very close for many years with Bannon, and so it's very normal for her to see the GOP as another far right party, and that's important for Americans to hear. Pretty scary. Yes, So one of the things that people are saying that are the people I know are Italian? Or is that the way the Italian government is set up will prevent her from taking power?

What do you think about that? Somewhat? In fact, the constitution they made a new constitution in n and the point of this constitution was to make sure there was no MUSLINI ever again, and so they did a lot of curtailing of the powers of all of the executive and they made it into what people call a party ocracy, so that party has had a lot of power and not people. And this is why there's been so many

romans and a lot of turmoil. There's many parties and it's easy to mix in, you know, re shift and juggle so that governments can come and go. But they are very interested Maloney's party in reforming the constitution to make the presidency a more powerful office. That's something that we need to think about. They really want to reform the constitution. So it's true that I have heard myself, I have lived in Italy for many years, of many

Italian friends and colleagues. There's a lot of consoling going on and saying either that she's not going to last because she's going to be out within a year, and also what you said that all these governments come and go, what does it all mean? But I argue that once you have each extremist experiment, and this is an experiment, no matter how long or short it lasts, it stays in the system. It breaks taboos, and it resets it's

as oh, you know, the Overton window. It's as though it resets what the norm is to now allow that possibility, and so I don't care if she falls after ten months. The fact that there's this precedent you'll see, shifts everything further to the right. Right, and fascism should not be a normal political party. No, But that's why there's so much reluctance. And it doesn't only come from the right, which is so busy. You just see my inbox trying to insist that she's just a conservative as well as

you know, Michael Tracy. Twitter is full of it, as well as my inbox, and there's all kinds of other ideas that fascism is left wing, so she can't be a fascist. All these things are being thrown out now to avoid dealing with the fact that she's a fascist. And so I'm very hard line on this, and I know Italians are not thrilled, some of them with me being so hardline, because they do want to say, well, it's all going to go away and doesn't mean anything.

I love Italy and I think it means something, and I'm devastated. Yeah, I love Italy too, and I've spent a lot of time there in my you know, as a kid, and also you know, and at other times, and so for me. I am devastated too, but I do think that you know, again, it's never good, right, it doesn't move us in the right direction, do you worry? I mean she has been more nuanced about Ukraine. She has.

She's very proputent and up through two thousand nineteen, I mean she's you know, wishing him publicly happy re election, all of that since the war began, because she's a pragmatist. When the reason she may not disappear overnight is that, like MUSSLINI, she's able to say one thing to one group of people and the opposite to another group of people.

So one op ed by an Italian I read says she's a political charmer and the people who love Mario Draggy are in dialogue with her and the hard light fascist really and so she's going to be an Atlanticist and she's going to be pro EU, even though all of her public pronouncements are like crazy anti EU stuff, and she's so pro Ukraine. But there are others, more subtle ways she can, like Orbon, you do one thing and you do the opposite thing at the same time,

and that's all the autocrats I've studied do this. So she can indeed continue saying, yes, we should send weapons to Ukraine, but also make very sure that there's no more confiscating Russian oligarchs properties in Italy or there's no support in subtle ways for sanctions on Russia. And I would expect her, as a as a little autocrat, to in fact play this double game. So interesting. Thank you, Ruth, This was great, sir, Yeah, it's great. I'm glad. You're

really glad we were able to talk. Molly John Fast Jesse Cannon. I have a special treat for you. I know, I feel like you don't feel like you don't even know what it is. I told you I was going to make it a surprise. It's like you don't be After taping four hundred podcasts episodes to get the Man, do you like to call Congress? But dentist Paul Gossar he has some very striking thoughts on what Republicans should

do if they take power again. Jesus Christ, our first step is making sure we have all the federal buildings I identified launitude of latitude. Put those under the federal jurisdiction of the Home governor, oversight the Congress. Indeed, the rest of Washington he see back to Maryland. We didn't. We have already set the president with Virginia some time back.

So no, I not get this over. I mean, I don't know, not the craziest thing Paul Gossar has said, and probably not the worst, thank you said, but I do think you know, look, Paul go Sar is clearly pretty committed to not letting d C be a state. As our most Republicans they are quite against DC statehood as they are against Puerto Rican statehood too, because you know, they know that if they if people vote, they lose, right.

So continually try to consolidate power to senators from d C puts Republicans at and even worse disadvantage very fast. It would just make Paul and Louie Gomert. I mean, think about how upset Louis would be. By the way, where his term is by January, there will be no more. I was gonna say, Molly, we're three months away from Louie never having to go to Washington, d C ever again, just be in Texas making trouble. That's it for this

episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you towards what you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again thanks for listening. M m HM