Karine Jean-Pierre, Tim O’Brien & Elie Honig

But first we have the host of Crash Course, Bloomberg Opinion editor Tim O'Brien. Welcome to Fast Politics. Tim O'Brien, Molly, this is like reality and fun any time you open it, So thanks for having me on. That's a bad sign. If I am your fun, then you're in trouble. No, that's not true. I've heard that actually a lot, and I appreciate it every time I hear it. So there's a spy balloon over Montana. Ryan Zinky. You may remember him as having one of the few people who had

to resign from the Trump administration for corruption. That guy, or as I like to think of him, the guy who looks just like the Grinch is in Congress. Now. Yes, the path out of power is to suck up the Donald Trump, engage in a corrupt activity, to part for a while and come back with more power in Congress. Yeah,

because that's the GOP function exactly. So basically, all of the Republicans who served Montana, the one congressman, two senators are all and also Marjorie Taylorgreen are like, shoot, the Chinese is spy balloon out of the sky. Let's go. Yeah. Balloon one that it got dubbed this by balloon is just really rich. And I think, you know the fact that we've got into the run, duck and cover phase of China paranoia. You know, I'm pretty hawkish about China.

I think we should be vigilant about China. I think they're doing aggressive things in the South China Sea. I think they're a threat to stability in Asia. You know, I think that they haven't made good on their trade promises. But I think this balloon thing is the most absurd thing imaginable. For one, I don't think there's anything this if this balloon was equipped with special cameras or whatever else they think is on it, and My understanding is

it could not capture anything on the ground. It's too far up. Well, the Chinese satellites couldn't already capture. The Chinese are now saying it's a weather balloon, which we probably shouldn't trust that either, but I sort of don't

really care. And what's more interesting to me in this whole thing is it it is like the scare tactic phase of our relationship with China's anything you can latch onto just sort of say, look up in the sky, your barbecuing, and there's a spy balloons to political effect, right right, right, no question, And it does seem to me. You know, Republicans, it's funny because they were very against I mean, it's not funny, and it's also not what any kind of funny, but they were very, very against

any kind of conflict with Russia. Vladimir Putin, he's our guy, but they are really into the idea of going to war with China. And then yet, you know, Nancy Pelosi goes to Taiwan, and Republicans, more than I think two dozen of whom in the prior two years service it had gone to Taiwan jump all over her as as sort of in artfully rattling the saber against China when they all have been spending a lot of time rattling

the ship saber against China. The trouble with dissecting anything Republicans do right now is anything that they would consider to be policy goals or policy statements constantly get either undermined or made entirely opaque of the fact that they'll do anything to engage in culture wars or to find a reason to criticize the Democrats, even if they're criticizing Democrats for behavior they've engaged in themselves. Right now, one could ask if this balloon fiasco is a way to

distract against these incredible, humongous job numbers. Can we talk about these job numbers? So, you know, unemployment is lowitz but it has been since nine the unemployed rate coming out of this existential threat of the pandemic lockdowns, there are you know, there are more jobs in the economy now than there were prior to the pandemic. And I think two things about it. One is, you know, I don't think presidents exercise a lot of control over the economy.

They set some parameters, and I think the way the federal government operates, creates a you know, a hospital bit of environment for the economy to thrive if things are done right. During the whole time that inflation was soaring, Republicans were on other way to try to tag Biden as as blowing up the Trump economy and hurting average working class Americans. Certainly, and the reality is, I think inflation has peaked, I think it's moderating. The job market

is strong. We'll see where this goes. The stock market right now, this is an interesting data point at this point, right now, yesterday, I have to look at the numbers again today. Yesterday it had grown at exactly the same amount over exactly the same period of time during Biden's

presidency as it had during Trump's. So for all the Trump pieces who said the body is bad for the stock market, bad for the economy, bad from inflation, bad for working in class Americans, there's there's an avalanche of data that just tells them, get your head out of the sand, exactly. But I want to ask you about these jobs numbers for a minute, because they're actually too hot, right. Can you explain this a little bit? Wow, one, can

jobs numbers ever be too high? The only people that say that our bond traders and the FED, the FETE is worried about a hot economy. They're worried about inflation. They're worried that a strong workforce will put pressure on demand and that will cause inflation to spike. So you have the FED fighting against the economy in a weird way to try to cool inflation. Well, I think you have the FED weighing. I don't think that's the way

to think about it. I think the FED would always say their guardians of the long term health of the U. S economy, and I think that's the best of them. All think that way, and their public servants in that regard. But what they kind of constantly weigh is rising inflation versus full employment, and they see their mandate is trying to balance those two things. The problem with the inflation data that they're freaked out by is it spiked in an unusually fast way, and there's a possibility that it

might dissipate in an unusually fast way. There was you know, people always talk about how political pulsters just really never really know and they get it wrong, and the same is true of economists. There's so much we don't know, but Inflation may have spiked because COVID bloke the supply chain. Inflation may spike because of massive and necessary government spending it to cushion the impact of the pandemic or excessive

or intense demand from works. They don't really know. So they're trying to say how tough should we be to bring inflation down before it spirals out of control in a way that hurts the economy. But the problem is this is not a normal inflationary environment. So they're trying to say how long do we have to be tough? And I don't think we should think of a strong

job market as bad. We want to stop market to be really, really strong, no, no question, But it is the tension is quite interesting among the you know, the pinheads. Interesting to me? Is that fair? You know? But I don't. I don't mean that about you. I mean that about the FED, right. I mean, I think a year or two from now, people will look back and said, did they get it right? And should they have been as

spooked by inflation as they were or not? And if they're overly spooked that they could cause a recession if they had rates too high, right, no question, And that I think is a really good point, and that's something that we're all I think watching. So I want to ask you, now, we are in this pre healthscape Trump is in Republicans, I mean, what is I mean, just explained to me this factory and then I want to

get to Stormy Daniels. Okay, by the way, they're bringing back all the first season characters right exactly, and I think actually maybe the greater effect legally, but we'll get there. Yes, the best way to understand Republicans right now is that they're in a hostage video right Donald Trump is filming them. He's got this, I think, a still unwavering hold on about of the Republican voting base, and that makes him a power broker in primaries. Is not somebody who can

pull the national coalition together. And you know, there's this debate of will he repeat and because the GOP field is so fractured, he'll have enough to get over the top and then be able to win again because he'll sew it together in a few states as he did against Hillary Clinton. I think the American electorate has become wise enough, not maybe wise enough, but but you know, wise to what he represents at the national level. And he's lost three national referendums, you know, in the last

three electoral cycles. And the Republicans don't know what to do about that because I think they know he's not viable nationally, but they know they can't cut him off because they'll they'll need his mojo during the primary season. I think that's clearly what's happening. So now we have this Stormy Daniels situation coming back. I want to talk to you about Alvin Bragg. Alvin Bragg had a case that was a case of inflating the value of the

assets basically the fraud banks right to defraud banks. And now he decided not to keep going with that, and there was a lot of controversy there and a lot of people asking what was he doing. Now Alvin Bragg is maybe back. I mean, do you think the emperor has no clothes? Do you think this is real? Tell me what you think? I think this is real. I don't think they'd be spinning their wheels there. You know, they're doubling down on trying to get Alan Weizelberg to flip.

I think against Trump. They put enormous pressure on Jeff mcconnie. You know, people think of the Trump organization as like an organization, it's actually an oxymoron, right. It's neither organized nor very large. It was a small shop of a few people that did what Trump told them to do. So any of these people that he's investigating are people who after we're working on in the direction of Donald Trump.

I think he felt in the first phase when Mark Palmerant's laughed, you know, well regarded prosecutor who's in the office and resigned because he felt Bragg wouldn't bring a prosecution of Trump if they didn't have the evidence to prove that Trump had intent when the banks were allegedly defrauded, and there was a big split in that office on that case that that that route didn't Some felt they had the evidence, some felt they didn't, and they parted ways.

I think he's now looking at an accounting fraud case, and I think I think he believes he has the evidence to establish intent around Donald Trump, certainly among his minions, which is why they all look so disastrously like beating into the ground. Whenever there's photos of them coming out of the courthouses, or you know, it's like Kelly's Heroes or something. Some old movie of like you know, guys in prison who are sprung to go into battle. So you think this is a real case and they can

get him on this or they can do something. I don't know if they can get him. I don't think. I mean, the States and this are so high that I don't think any prosecutor in the country right now is going to go lightly about their work. And I think we've seen, uh, you know, Fonnie Willis go diligently about her work. I hope Mark Garland is going diligently

about his. He appears to be. You know, I think that Tish James a ge New York is, and I think brag is and I think he feels I would look at this and I would say he feels he's got a case now, but it's a different one than what was given to him when he first came into the d A's office. It is weird, you know, I've written a lot about this, You've written a lot about this.

It does feel kind of strange that here's Trump. You know, he is, I mean, by far, the most criminal president we've ever had, and he's had no official anything again, you know, he's free to run again. He's got no, you know, he's not. He has yet to be indicted. I mean, it is a bit strange that he's in

this position of two years later. Yeah, I mean I think, you know, part of it is the problem of white collar crime generally in the US is our system is almost built to make you know, perpetrators of white collar crimes variously defined as subject too much higher burden of proof. And somebody who rips off the seven eleven, and and then secondarily, he's got the powers of the presidency. I wish prosecutors would sort of get rid of this the majesty of the office kind of thinking and just treat

him like you would treat any other target. Yeah. I think the investigation was undermined by Mueller's deference to the White House, and that's protected Trump, you know, And and it's he sort of just stumbled into that accidentally and and then discovered that it was yet another ring of fire that could keep justice from crawling up as to his doorstep. Yeah, I mean, it definitely true. So I want to ask you about David Pecker, one of our we haven't just not the first time we've talked about him.

He has really skated That's another you know, that's another amazing thing is he is in the midst and in the middle of not just the stormy Daniels, you know, matter and finding cushions for Trump's alleged lovers. He spent years weaponizing his media properties on Trump's behalf. But you know that's not a crime in this country, by the way, since you and I are both in the media. But he has certainly fallen reputationally in his station in the world. I think has changed. Not that it was ever on

an elevated plane. It was gonna say, I mean the guy who wants the examiner. Yeah, when you're already in the tar pit, how far down can you go? We find ourselves like in this run up to this election, and I just want to know, Like, it does seem like Trump could win, but it also seems like Trump could absolutely not win this primary. I think Trump could win the primary and not win the national election. And I think the Republicans deserve that dilemma because they've lacked

the courage and integrity to do otherwise. You know, I think if the economy had been unwinding now continuously and inflation was on a wild rampage, I think it would have been hard for Biden to be the standard bearer

for the Democrats. You know, he's obviously like a disastrous public speaker and often cringe worthy, but he is stuck by I think programmatically what he and his advisors and a meaningful block of Democrats and independent voters want to hear and see legislatively and then on a policy track. And I think he'll probably be the standard bearer. I mean that's a really good question, right because it's like,

I mean, how do you argue the policy? You know, the economy is coming back, There's a lot of good stuff happening. You know, Republicans when they say, like things are a disaster, they make up stuff that you know, it's five billion dollars worth of CRT being taught in nursery schools. I mean, you know, like I just I wonder if you know, if all of those other things are okay, maybe it doesn't matter that, you know, Biden is imperfect. I think that could very well be the case.

And I think that voters actually made that trade off in twenty you know, and you know, voters rescued us, and they rescued us in the mids terms and they're gonna rescue us again. The media and law enforcement other institutions played a role, I think in keeping a finger in the dike around Trump is um, but it was

ultimately voters who had to rescue us. I felt very pessimistic prior to the mid terms and me too, and I was really happy to see that, Hey, people are paying attention, and so now I feel a little more optimistic about From your mouth to God's ear, thank you very much, Tim of Iran, thank you for having Karine. Jean Pierre is the White House Press secretary. Welcome to Fast Politics, Karne, Hello Molly, thank you so much for having me Fast Politic as well. We'll be fast. We'll

be fast. We'll be fast. So you are a press secretary. It's a pretty big deal. It's a pretty enormous job. Will you explain to our listeners who are very politically savvy but might not completely understand what is the job. So the job is being essentially the top chief spokesperson

for the president of the United States. That's the simplest, simplest way to explain it, which is I have the honor and the privilege to be at a podium for about an hour almost every day, five days a week at the most, to talk about the president's priorities, the president's to how is he delivering for the American people, And then I take those questions from the members of the press on things that they want to ask about, either that particular policy or the news of the day.

And honestly, Molly, it is a privilege and an honor to be able to do that every single day for the most powerful leader in the world, the President of the United States. Sometimes I have to pinch myself because it is indeed something that I would have never have dreamed of, and I take that responsibility Molly, so seriously.

It is very heavy on my shoulders and heavy weight on my shoulder because I want to make sure that I'm doing it in an effective way so the American people know what we're doing dealing with, know what we're talking about, and also making sure that I'm capturing the President's voice and capturing also what it is that he wants me to talk about as it relates to the

policies that we're trying to push forward. Something I think people may not know is that the press is in sort of the same area as the rest of the White House staff. Can you explain that a little bit, because that's sort of interesting. Yeah. So I always say that we are the one department office on the campus, on the White House campus where our constituents are with us. Our constituents are right here on campus. And what I mean about that is I just mentioned the White House

brief rom room. People know the White House brief Room and is a well known room or part of the White House, uh that many people who come on tours that is one of the places, it's like the Oval office, the White House Briefing Room that they want to see for themselves. And because of that, there are some White House correspondents and White House reporters or White House producers that actually have offices and cubicles right kind of under like to the back under on the floor of the

Priestsent Briefing Room, but also um in the basement. And it is certain publications have boots. It's been a lot of it is historical how long they've been there, and so they actually worked there. They have their work hours in their boots in their offices right there in the in the White House. And then some folks, I know you said, your folks are pretty politically savvy obviously if they're listening to you and want to hear news about

what's happening in d C and across the country. There is the White House North Lawn, which is right to the right of the White House in front of the White House, and um, they're the White House law and has all of the cameras and the TVs, and you'll see a lot of the White House correspondence, a lot of the White House reporters standing doing their reporting, and you see the White House in the back behind them as the backdrop. And so those are the those reporters

as well. A lot of them spend most of their day right here at the White House doing their job, doing their work, coming to the briefing room and reporting. Do you feel that your parents are okay that you're not a doctor? Now? Do you feel that they've given you the okay? They have given me the okay? I have incre credibly proud parents. My mom, I know, watches the briefing whenever it is on and is always proud and it's always cheering me on. Will let me know

that she watched the briefing, brags about me. Here's from her friends about me and it's just incredibly proud. I brought my mom to the state dinner, which is the first date dinner that the president had in his presidency. Obviously COVID had slowed us down a bit for the first year and a half or so. That was France, right, Yes,

President ma Quan and Bridget his wife. They came in December, December one, and my mom was my plus one, and she was so thrilled and so happy, and she kept on she cried a couple of times, and she and the next day she told me, you just made me so happy. You just don't understand how happy you made me. And she met the president for the first time, which I hadn't realized that she hadn't met him yet, and she went up to him and said, I love you so much. He's so he's just so good. President's just

president body. It's just so good at And he opened his arms and she put her head in his chest and he hugged her really really tight and said, so lovely to meet you, and of course said all the nice things about me, which he's very good at as well. And it's a moment that is one of the most beautiful moments that I have experienced um with my mom. We have a photo of it that I'm going to get printed and framed so she could have in her home.

So I want to ask you. We had this administration, the last administration, the one before this, otherwise known as the Former Guy, and they were really worked hard to demonize as the main stream media, to say that the media was the enemy of the people, and some of it worked. How do you interface with the media in a world where the media, you know, one party really does hate the media and it's unfortunate what we saw.

Let me just call that out very clearly, what we saw from the last administration and with what they try to do to the media, which is journalism, is we are a democracy. Journalism is important and it's something that we should fight for, and the president fights for here in this country and across and speaks to it globally right across the world. When we see a journalist that's being attacked or not allowed to report freely, not allowed to do their journalistic duties, we have to call that

out because having a democracy is important. So that's one piece I think we need to call that out. We have we have course corrected, if you will, and have hopefully brought back a healthier relationship, and we understand what it means for them to to be in the room and to take those questions. Look, I think, Molly, regardless of who is in this role or which party is in power outside of the last administration, right, which is what we saw, there's a natural tension right between the

press and any administration. And the person in my job is the focal point of that, right and so and and so. What's why I want to be also clear, is that tension. I think that tension is actually very good. It is a healthy part of our democracy. The press can and should question the government. That is their job what they should do. They should seek the truth and hold the powerful accountable. Right, that is what they should do.

And I know some in the press, you know, I don't like my answers every day, But that is part of the give and take of the job. And that is not unique to me at all. I think that has been true for every press secretary specifically, I think as well the modern day ones. Since our briefings are televised, the briefing being televised kind of also changes that dynamic as well. Yeah, oh, no question. I also think that. I mean, the job here is for the media to

be contentious in some ways. Well, I think, like I said, a healthy back and forth and there's always going to be tensioned. That makes sense. And they should question the government, they should question what it is that we're trying to do and on behalf of the American people. And you know what, I appreciate that that's my job. That is my job. I don't take anything personally because like I said, every Press secretary has had this experience, and so that's

kind of how I how I leave it. I just do my job, do it the best of my abilities, making sure that two things that I really focus on focus on is communicating the president's agenda to the American people. The American people truly truly matter, right, because that's who we're working on, behalf of h and making sure that we do have that that democracy right, that back and forth, that journalism that is so important, and how they report back and being transparent and talking about the work and

what we're trying to do here. It is interesting though that like for example, with the economy, this has actually been quite a much more positive economic cycle than many people thought. You know, inflation looks like it's it's you know, moving in the right direction. There's a lot of good news in there, and there's been some hesitation on the part of the main tree media. I feel like to celebrate that good news. Let me just echo a little bit of what you just said. The President's economic policy

is working. The president economic policy is working, and the data shows that you talked about inflation. We are seeing inflation cool for the last six months. We're seeing unemployed unemployment rate at a rate that we haven't seen in more than fifty years. We are seeing historical legislative successes that we haven't seen since lb J. When you think about infrastructure really pushing. We pushed a bipartisan infrastructure legislation that is now law that is going to change communities

across the country, something that was a joke. Infrastructure Week was a joke in the last administration. Right, Remember, many presidents have tried to do this and we're not able to do this, and we were able to do it. And let's not forget the American Rescue Plan, which was the first piece of legislation that really helped us get the economy back on its feet. Many people said we couldn't do it. We got it done with only Democrats.

The bipartisan Infrastructure Legislation. Many people said, get oh you, there's no way you're gonna be able to get that done in a bipartisan way. No one you're going to be able to do that. Do that. The President got it done. The Inflation Reduction Act, which is going to lower premiums, lower healthcare costs. It's going to really truly help Americans with healthcare, with fighting climate change, right with making sure that we're lowering costs even on energy, and

creating jobs. I didn't even say that creating jobs. That's what people said, There's no way you're gonna do it, and the President got it done. The Veterans piece of legislation that deals with an issue that veterans have had to deal with for a long time. That got done in a bipartisans the way. The Chips and Science Act, that got done. And let's not forget one of the last pieces this president signed in the last session was the Marriage Equality Act, which was done in a bipartisan way.

And guess what people said that wouldn't be get done. The Gun Violence Prevention Act. Yeah, I never thought that would get done. Yeah, the Gun Violence Prevention Act. People didn't think that was gonna be to do. It the most significant piece of legislation to happen in thirty years on gun violence. We still have a lot of work to do, but that got done. But to your point, it is we constantly have to push, We constantly have to lay out how it is that this president has

transformationally change how we deal with the economy. Instead of doing trickle down, which we don't believe in, he doesn't believe in, we're building economy from the bottom up, middle out, which is not leaving anyone behind. But you're right, it is very difficult. It is very difficult to get that

out there. And uh um. And so it is our job right to talk directly to the American people, to talk to your viewers, and as well you use other mediums to have those conversations so we can really broaden and grow our platform, our audience. So this is why it's so important for me to talk to you, Molly, as well as you know, talk to the folks in the briefing room, but also to have conversations with folks

like yourself. As I mean, I interviewed the Vice President and it's impossible to quantify what it means to be first, but you too are first in a number of different ways as Press secretary. Do you sort of take that in and say, like, people might give me a harder time and I just I mean people give me a very hard time too. I'm not the first of anything, but I just try not to personalize that. I mean, is that what you do or do you have some

other I stay focused on my job. I think historians and history will certainly write about that and have their opinion. My job is to focus on the work at hand. There's a lot of noise, Molly, as you know, there's a lot of noise every day, a lot of noise.

My job, I believe, is to tune it out. I stay focused on what I can control, which is how I communicate from the podium about what the administration is doing every day to help the American public and serving in these roles are not about me, It really isn't. It is not about me. It's not a about the president even It's about the public who we are. We're here to serve. That's what it's about. And I stay

really focused on that and tune out the rest. I'll add a few personal anecdotes because I think it's really important. You know, we're in a bubble here in d C, and sometimes I don't really pay attention. You were talking about being a first and the communities that I represent, and sometimes I forget that, And I mean I inherently know it, right, clearly, I know it, but sometimes I forget how much me being at that podium does touch people.

I often encounter folks outside of this bubble, and not even too much outside of the bubble, right, even the suburbs of the d m V. I go out there and I have people who cry, who tell me how important it is to see me, and it's and it is people of people from from various backgrounds, right. It could be someone young in the black community, or someone in a different community, or it doesn't matter, or the

LGBTQ community. It is surprising to me how seeing me at the podium had touched so many people in a way that's inspiring, in a way that changes their lives. So if I'm able to do that at the same time, Molly, that is great, and I and I honor that, and I, like I said, I started off this interview saying It is a privilege and an honor to be doing this job. And if I can, on top of it, if I can inspire people, that's great. That is great, and that

is I think important. If you think about how the President thinks about things, right, if you think about how President Biden and Dr Biden think about the importance of diversity, they think about how representation matters. They think they thought about what it meant to have someone like me at the podium, and it speaks to how diverse this administration is and the most diverse in modern presidents. I think that says actually more about them, more about the president

than me. Yeah, I absolutely think that's true. You have questions that you can't answer for any number of reasons. How do you deal with that? I deal with it in the most honest way that I can, right, And it depends on the question. Right. Most recently it's because of a legal matter, right, if there's a legal matter. We have been very clear here. We have been very

clear that we just don't comment on that. It doesn't matter what the topic is or who the top who it's about, we have said the President has said during the campaign. From the campaign, he has said the Department of Justice needs to be given back it's independence. It is important to not politically interfere or get involved under any with any investigation. And this is the thing. You have heard us say this from the beginning of this administration.

There's nothing absolutely new. And I said this at the beginning. They're going to be times where I understand, I totally get it. The press is not going to like my answer or think that I'm not giving them an answer. But here's the thing, Molly, I'm doing my job regardless right the answer I'm giving, I'm doing my job so true. Thank you so much is so interesting. I certainly know. Thanks, Molly. I really appreciate the time. I really do. I know you.

Our dear listeners are very busy and you don't have time to sort through the hundreds of pieces of punditentry each week. This is why every week I put together a newsletter of my five favorite articles on politics. If you enjoy the podcast, you will love having this in your inbox every Friday. So sign up at Fast Politics pod dot com and click the tab to join our mailing list. That's Fast politics pod dot com. Ellie Honeg is a CNN legal analyst and author of the book

Untouchable How Powerful People Get Away with It. Welcome Too Fast Politics, Ellie Molly John Fast. It is always a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for having me. We're delighted. So let's talk about the book first. How did you decide I did to write this book? Tell us about it, tell us your origin story. Go This book arose organically. I wrote my first book, which was called Hatchetman, How Bill bar Corrupted the Justice Department, and it went great, just proven to be more and more

true every day. You saw that times I know, I mean, I want to do an indent. We did a paperback and I wrote a whole new chapter. I feel like I could almost write volume two, just even up to now. It's like this guy is such a such a liar and so corrupt that it just keeps years later, it's still coming out on this guy. Talk about that time story for one second, and then we'll get back to your book. But there was a story yesterday in the New York Times Charlie Savage that basically said Bill bar

tried to influence these Durham investigation John Durham. Yeah, and you know there's a chapter in the first book where I heavily criticized Bar over the Durham investigation. Basically, the it turns out the Durham investigation is exactly what it looked like and exactly what we all thought, which is it's this politically driven in quest to try to undermine anything Robert Mueller did and to try to lend some fuel to the fire of no collusion or that actually

the FBI was corrupt. Here Durham's investigation has been a complete spectacular failure, and it turns out, of course bar was complicit in it and tried to essentially soft pedal or lie to us about it, and he also tried to sort of push Durham to find something and to trash Muller. Yes, I mean Bill Barr could not hide his bias on this particular issue. He was pretty good at hiding his stripes on some things, but it always

burned him. He always felt like the whole investigation of Donald Trump was a fraud, was a hoax, despite all the evidence that at least an investigation was necessary. Any he pressured Durham, he tried to find results that just weren't there, and it's just more fuel to the fire that sort of spurred my first book. So you were right about Bill Barr. I think it's important. I am

confident in saying I was absolutely about Bill. And by the way, this guy's this guy one of a small note, but you know, he always put on this whole act of like, oh, I'm too old for this crap. I don't need this business. I don't care what people say about me. The terms. He's very very vain, he's very very public image conscious. I mean, he goes on every TV show. He's on air more than me almost. He was on Bell mar last week. Did Bill Moore? Yeah?

And and the funniest thing is this is in my paperback. After he got out. In response to a freedom of information request, d o J released some of his texts. This guy is monitoring Twitter, going, oh, did Don Junior retweet me? It's embarrassing. That's amazing. At least someone respects Don Junior. Yeah, right, at least someone's hoping for approval from the guy. Yeah. So I do the first book, and HarperCollins, my publisher, is thrilled with it and did well.

And a couple of weeks after it came out, they said, what do you want to do next, And I said, I don't really have any ideas. Guys. That was kind of my one thing that I had in mind. And they said, well, let me ask you this. My editor said, let me ask you this. What's the question that people just ask you the most through CNN or through through the other work you do. He's to take a couple of days, think about it, get back to me. And I said, oh, I don't need to take a couple

of days. I'll tell you right now. The question is how the hell does he get away with it? He can vary a bit, but it's the most often used to revert to Donald Trump. And they said, there it is. Do that. And so what I do in the book is I blend a lot of different things. First of all,

there's original reporting in there. There's scoops in there about things that happened behind closed doors at my old office the Southern District of New York and d O J. I take a lot of the public reporting and did a lot of research on not just Trump, but Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein, Bill Cosby. Right, there are a lot of these guys got away with that exactly, Various CEOs, people who aren't as household names either. And then third, I blend in a lot of my own stories from when

I was a prosecutor. I was a mob prosecutor, Molly. I did cases against really over a hundred if you counted all up actual New York City Gambino and Genevese family members. And what struck me is people often say, oh, Trump's like a mob buss It's really true. I can say that because I prosecuted mob busses, and I draw those parallels by telling a lot my mob stories in

the book as well. I want to ask you a question now about this news that we saw this week about the guy in the New York City FBI office. Explain this story to us because he was found to be like a Russian asset, right, yeah, I mean essentially he's that that's the accusation here that he was essentially sort of in bed with or working with this guy

ar Posca, who is a Russian oligarch. And it's interesting to see everybody sort of the spin go into effect because people who believe that Mueller was doing the right thing are saying this is more proof this, This sort of undermines some of the failures of the Muller investigation and others are saying it's proof that there was a fix in place against Donald Trump. So I think this is a perfect or shot test. How would that be possible that somehow this was a fix against Donald Trump. Right,

It's hard to articulate, but they're making the argument. I'll just believe it at that. Yeah, Okay, what he admits to feed on anything. Nowadays, everyone can take any story and just go see see and and you do see people saying, oh, this is this proves that Mueller was corrupt, or that people on Muller's team were corrupted, they were

out to get Trump somehow. I just want to push back on this because what again, I am not an expert in any area of this, But my question for you is, there was a guy who worked in the FBI office who was largely in charge of Russia who turned out to be on Dara Pasca Russian oligarchs payroll.

That guy was there when the FBI office put out the statement that said Trump had no ties to Russia exactly, I think it, and that they were investigating Hillary, right, I think the best they can do in that situation. I think the best people who are defending Trump can do It depends on how you cast a leg dar Apostca, because I think what they try to do is spin him as somehow being anti Trump or an enemy of Joe Biden or something like that, or pro Joe Biden.

I should say, actually, so it doesn't make sense to me either, right, And also, I mean, if you're going to trace the two thousand sixteen election and Hillary's defeat, and look, Hillary certainly was not a perfect candidate and a lot of things went wrong, but certainly it did not help having the FBI with their finger on the scale toward Trump. Oh. I mean, look, James Comey will forever have this follow him. And I think Jim Comey, I think he I know, he violated FBI and d

o J protocol by coming out when he did. You know, I'll leave it to the electoral experts whether that swung the election, but it was a damn close election and that announcement was damn influential, damn close to the election, So you know, people can draw their own conclusions. And by the way, you know, I do talk about this sort of in the book, not this specific incident, but how do o J sort of has this constant struggle

to keep itself independent, keep its of neutral. But a lot of times when it comes to powerful people that they panic, or for reasons good or bad, end up doing the wrong thing. I mean, there seems like there's one of the story, right, I think. So, I think we're gonna learn more. I'm fascinated to watch this case

as it develops. I was pretty shocked by that. Now with Rudy Giuliani, I mean, Rudy has said before and again you have to take what he says with a grain of salt, though, but he has said before that he had a relationship with his FBI office, right I mean, Rudy, Yeah, you have to. I think you have to take everything with with a pillar of salt. With Rudy, I think there are more shoes to drop on this one. I'm keeping my powder dry on this because there's a lot here,

a lot of moving parts. And yeah, I certainly don't trust Rudy. I'm not trusting the spin here either. Did Trump spin? Yeah? I look. My initial reaction is that this is not helpful for for people who believe that this was a big hoax. I think, if if anything, I think it casts some questions on why did the investigation come up short? Why did Trump essentially why was he able to wriggle out of it? And why did the team let him wriggle out of it? Absolutely no question.

So tell me what else you're watching now? Oh my goodness. Uh in terms of what's what's in the news, people getting away with it, what's in the FBI crime world? I mean, what are you saying? I mean, look, the biggest one is Donald Trump. I mean, I mean not that you know, not to go back to this, but we are nearing a point of no return, I think when it comes to the various Trump investigations, and I

do talk about this in the book. And look, there's there's two big lanes that we need to focus on here. First of all, there's Fulton County in Georgia, the d A it is. And I write when I wrote the book, you know, when when we locked the book, it was four or five months ago, and I said, guys, there could be an indictment of Trump by the time this

book comes out. And so the way I wrote the book, and I stand by every word of it, I say Trump may well get indicted by the time you're reading this book, and if so, I think the first one to get there will be the Fulton County d A Fani Willis, and I think that's absolutely true. I actually think it's close to all but inevitable that she will indicte him. Now, if you're rooting for a Trump indictment,

that's great, you may get what you want. But I do talk in the book about how we have to be very careful here because otment is one thing, but a conviction is something very different, especially when you're talking about an indictment coming from a county level elected d A. I think there's going to be a serious challenge here, or serious legal challenge, to whether a county d A has the jurisdiction and authority to charge a former president.

And the other thing that I'm quite critical of both Bonnie Willis and Merrick Garland four is taking this long. We are two plus years out from January six, not a single soul with any proximity to any political power has been charged with anything the church at all. Very louder Milk. I mean, there's so many congressmen who spoke at that rally. How about Johnny Eastman, how about Jeffrey Clark, how about me. And here's the thing. People say, well,

you know, have patience, and these things take time. Two years is too long. Two years too long. Look, d o J has unlimited resources. They could have put any amount of manpower personnel on this they wanted. There's no reason they could have could not have gotten these cases taken down in late Yet here we are now early. Even if somebody indictes Donald Trump tomorrow early February, let's say, when do you think that case goes to trial. There's

gonna be appeals, there's gonna be federal. You know, they're gonna try to take things federal. These cases, either case will not get to a jury before And what's the world gonna look like at that point? January six is gonna be three years old. Donald Trump is gonna be in the middle of the next campaign. And you could say, well, Trump is not very popular in Fulton County. Fine, but you still have a very very high I actually did

this this math in in my book. There's a chance, given the way people voted, that you will have one Trump juror out of twelve in Fulton County. Scent chance you'll have two. And on down the line, you need a unanimous jury, and I think it's already hard enough. Put aside the strength of the proof, it's already hard enough to get twelve jurors unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt

to say we're going to convict and imprison a former president. Now, add to the fact that it's going to be a leading candidate, possibly the nominee, presumptive nominee by the time of trial happens, You're gonna have a jury take out a leading presumptive nominee of one of the two major parties. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying these prosecutors have needlessly complicated their own task by the slow pace

they've both moved. For sure, I mean, it does seem to me Merrick Garland was the wrong guy for this job. I think you're right. I'm very critical of Merrick Garland in the book. I have a chapter in the book called Waiting for Garland, which I guess is a play on waiting for good Oh or waiting for Goffman. Right. You know, there are people who are, Oh, he's gonna come someday, He's gonna save us. And here's the thing I do give Merrick Garland credit in the book for

being a strong institutionalist. We were talking about Bill Barr before. Look, Merrick Garland, to his credit, has been honest. He's never lied to us. Kind of sad that we have to say. It's a good thing for that in ag has never lied to us. But after Bill Barr, we do have to say that. And he has tried to restore d OJ's integrity and independence. But my my criticism of Garland is he he moves too slow, be he has taken

a myopic view of this case. He was always well, we're going to start at the bottom and work our way up. You don't have to do it that way. If you have a shot at the top, take a shot at the top. There's no reason he could have got to Cassidy Hutchinson. There's no reason he couldn't got to Mark short, to these other White House staffers who the January Sex Committee got to a year and a half ago. So I I don't think he was up for the task of bringing a strong, decisive, gutsy prosecution

in a timely manner. Right, So the wrong person for the job. Tell us one salient fact from your book about how Trump got away with it. If that makes sense. I'll give you one one example that I I think I use early on in the book. So everyone knows that wealthy people, powerful people will use their money and their resources to build themselves these sort of legal dream teams. I'm gonna put dream teams in heavy scare quotes here because a lot of times the reputations of these folks

outstripped their actual talents. But you know, we all remember the O J Team, But the more recent one is Jeffrey Epstein when he first got charged in down in Florida, the case that Alexander Acosta completely botched on purpose. We don't know how he botched it, right, And well, I

I have a chapter on this in the book. He had this powerhouse team of Alan Dershowitz and Kenneth Starr and all these former U S attorneys, and I actually assemble evidence, and I make the argument in the book that the reason alex Acosta gave away that case is not because he was on the take. It's because he will stout. It's because he was too afraid of them.

And I actually found that one of the main prosecutors who was running the case, she said that she believed that Acosta was basically just overwhelmed by these lawyers and didn't have the guts to take them on. And one of the victims lawyers independently said the same thing, and I think that holds true. Now, very critical of Acosta in this book, But now let me shift bass here.

We all know that powerful people pay for lawyers. Fine, but what people may not realize, and I saw this all the time in my own career as a prosecutor, is real powerhouses, real smart powerhouses pay for other people's lawyers. Why to keep them from flipping on the That's Ferry Trump, ay exactly. So I used to see this all the time in my mob cases. I tell the specific story every time we would do a big mob take, all the guys would be represented by lawyers who were chosen

and paid for by the mob. And I tell his story about one of these cases where a lower ranking guy but a potentially very valuable co operator wanted to flip but he couldn't do it there his lawyer, because his lawyer was paid for by the mob. So he sent his girlfriend on this like secret backdoor mission to the FBI. Don't let us know, and I won't give away the ending book, just like Cassidy Hutchinson. You are right with me exactly, and that is exactly the parallel

that I draw. I said, look at Cassidy Hutchinson. Her lawyer was chosen and paid for by the Trump, a Trump affiliated entity, and while she had that lawyer, she said she did not feel like she could come forward fully. In fact, she actually lied her first interview with that lawyer. There they asked her, do you know anything about Trump getting into some sort of scrape with the Secret Service on and she said no, never heard anything about it,

you know. And then only when she broke free from this guy, Stephen Passantino and got herself her own lawyer, former federal prosecutor, did she fully come clean. And so I talked about that tactic, and let me one more thing on that, Molly, this is very common. CEOs corporations do this all the time. And and here's where it gets really maybe frustrating. For a long time, d OJ's policy was, if you are an organization and you are paying for lawyers providing lawyers for other people, we're going

to count that against you. That counts as a strike against cooperation. When we're assessing whether you've been cooperative. But in two thousand eight, d o J completely reversed that policy. It was just an internal memo and it said, from now on, we're not going to count that against you. And it's ridiculous, sort of Pollyanna logic. They say, we believe that corporate America and big corporations have the same

interests as we do in full transparency efect. Really you think Enron wants to wants to cooperate, you know, just like the same as you do. And so they changed their policy. And you know what, since two thousand and eight, we've had democratic d o J administrations, we've had Republican d o J administrations, Obama, Trump, Biden, no one has changed that policy. They've left it in place, and it favors powerful people. So interesting. Thank you so much, Ellie.

I hope he'll come back. Thanks great to join you. I would happily come back anytime, Jesse Cannon. So the Republicans are real mad that Biden didn't shoot down that balloon fast enough, even though Mr Trump had it happened three times and he never shot it down. The spy balloon or the United States. Biden asked the military to shoot it down on Wednesday, according to what he said and the reporting, and the military says, wait until it's not overpopulated areas, and they decided to shoot it down

on Saturday. Republicans used the following days to pose with guns and complain about Biden. In fact, one Republican says Biden should be impeached because of this. I mean, you just can't win with these people. First of all, I mean, and more importantly than anything, besides all the gun fetitalizations of guns, um, it is like you mean, carry Lake d and Mt. All pretty much everyone you can think of, posing with guns. But ultimately the balloon is way way

way up there and you cannot shoot it. And in fact, some law enforcement agencies warned that you really like shooting into a hurricane, Trying to shoot a weather balloon that is many miles up in the sky is not a good plan. And so because of all of these many different, very stupid things, this is our moment of funky. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to her the best minds and politics

makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again thanks for listening.