Julia Louis-Dreyfus, David Mandel, George Conway & AG Dana Nessel

huge event for that you'll hear all about. Then we'll talk to Michigan Attorney General Dana Nestle about her race and all the craziness happening up north there. But first we have Washington Post columnist and Trump Hawkeye legal analysis George Conway. Welcome to Fast Politics, George Conway. This isn't like a new podcast, right, This is a new podcast called Fast Politics, and it drops every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

And I know you're subscribed, so okay there, And I know you only call me when you're desperate for Yes, that's not even true, that is not true. You had this amazing piece an interview that we all read and poured over. He poured over it over, and that's why my computer doesn't work anymore. The one, the only George Conway coming in to talk legalism with us. We got to start at the beginning, sir. In the beginning there was there was Donald J. Trump, and he's going to jail.

Explained to us, what you think here is happening, What I think here Isn't that complicated. It's just that this document scandal is about is simple a case that you could imagine. I mean, he took the stuff, He stole the stuff, He had no reason to take this stuff. And then we're learning every day how he lied to his lawyers. His lawyers made false statements that he passed on to them, to them, to the government. I mean, he's got a big problem. And we you know, we

see yesterday I think it. One of reports was that he actually packed the documents himself, the first set that went back to the National Archives in January, and he did it himself. And then he tried to get his lawyers to say, hey, that's it, and of course that's not true. And even the lawyers were scared of looking this. Lawyer Cannon was scared of looking at the documents because he knew they were classified, so he didn't want to go in there and look at the stuff. Sorry, isn't

Judge Cannon. She this is the lawyers. His name is Alex Cannon. Different Cannon. Sorry, I was just trying to not have the family name besmirched anymore with this mess. Judges loose Cannon. This is I don't know lawyer Cannon, and lawyer Cannon worked for Trump and he has he I think his name is Alex. He basically and this was the story in the Post. Yeah, I want to talk to you about this Washington Post story, and the

Times this morning followed through. The Times came up with it also after this, Cannon fellow basically said, I'm not making the representation into the National Archives that all these documents are produced, right because he doesn't want to know his law. Well, he doesn't want to go to jail, so the arego. Um. So So in that Washington Post Roy last night, it talks there's a paragraph that I actually cut and sent to Maggie and was like, this is true about how Trump is saying that he packed

the boxes. It was attributed to It's not attributed to anyone but I think it's because probably the lawyer that people around Trump but basically said, you know, we didn't look at any of this stuff. And this guy Cannon was basically saying, I don't want to look at any

of this stuff because there's classified stuff in there. I don't know the sourcing of that, but there's no reason to disbelieve it, right, um, And the fact that that's true, if that's the evidence, if the people around him saying, well, he told us this and he packed the stuff himself, which would be amazing, you know, he's got big problem because his fingerprints are literally all over this, literally and figuratively, and he has no one to hang out to draw

on this. And it's just so simple. It's not like January six, where there are just dozens of people and hundreds of people and all sorts of things going on, and and you have to show intent, and you know he's doing it. This is easy. He took the stuff, the stuff was where it shouldn't belong. I mean, it's like it's basically he's caught red handed. And if you or I had done this, we'd be in jail already. There's no question any other human being on the planet

done this, they'd be in jail already. So Christina, Bob is the one who signed that form that said they had returned everything right. The story last night, though, was different. Trump tried to get Cannon to say that Earst Yeah, Bob, I think wrote what she wrote and signed a certification after the materials have been produced to the Department of Justice in response to the subpoena. And it turned out to be false, as the raid at maral Lago eight

weeks ago shows. And you know again eight weeks. It's been eight weeks. We have not heard a single credible argument. We have no reason excuse why he had these documents. We've had her no defense, not legal, not factual, nothing. And so let's get back to this. Could Bob end up being the scapegoat for this? I mean I don't think so, because I think what she's gonna end up saying. I'm just guessing here. This is speculation. Is well, he told me to say that, he represented that to me.

Now she had reason not to probably have reason not to believe it, So she probably has exposure. But all that should do is make it more likely that she would testify against him at a trial because she's got exposure. So if I were her, I'd get a good lawyer. I think she apparently does have a lawyer. Basically, I put it all off on Trump. If I could do it, if I could truthfully do that. There's another case in Trump world, another case. There's like different categories of legal

cases here. There's the Trump as defendant cases and then there's the Trump as plaintiff cases. I don't know, I want to talk to you about this CNN case. I mean, it's just absurd on so many one. I mean it literally is. It's to the point it's funny, except that

lawyers actually signed this pleading. I mean, they should trust they should lose their trustee debate that, by the way, told the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals in the documents case that oh, we're very busy, we can't we can't do an expedited appeal, and then the same day files

as crazy frivolous lawsuit. Um. But I mean it's first of all, he's claiming repay defamation, is claiming damage to reputation, okay, and so the alleged damage to his reputation in this defamation case is that he was called a liar, because CNN said that his election lies were the big lie. So this man is literally the most documented lie, lire prevaricator in the history of recorded mankind, recorded history of mankind. Maybe there were there were there were bigger liars, maybe

Girbels told more lives, but we got more. We have more documentation thanks to the Internet and television than anybody, you know, than than any liar in human history. This man, I don't know who else could compete with him. And you know the Washington Post that thirty three thousand over four years, and you know, they just I'm sure they didn't get everything. It's impossible. Man just opens his mouth and he lies, and he's claiming that his reputation could

possibly suffer damage because somebody said he's a liar. I mean literally, he There's there's this concept in the law of being libel proof, where somebody's reputation is so bad they can't possibly show any damage even if they show that there was a false, defamatory, otherwise defamatory statement made about them. And Donald Trump is pretty much libel proof, particularly when it comes to the question of his character and veracity in particular. And that's that's only one absurdity

of the case. That's that's just that's that's just sort of like the overarching absurdity of the case. I mean, as a legal matter, it's pure opinion, how big this lie was. He lied, it's falsehood, it's a falsehood. And his complaint is that, you know, people are using the big lie in the sense that they're using the words that conjure up the I don't know how you say it in German, the gross luge and the big lies of the Nazi propaganda machine in the nineteen thirties and forties.

And it's like, that's a statement of opinion how bad he is, and making the comparison of his big lie to other people's big lies in history that that's that's that's a pure statement of opinion, and that's protected by the first amoment. This case is the most ridiculous thing you can imagine. My favorite part in it is did you get to the part with them with Linda Ronstad? Yeah? What was that about? I didn't I confess I did not read every line of the So Linda Ronstad said

bad things about Trump. Ergo want Trump wants to sell. And then there's also Freed Zakaria saying that Trump isn't literally hitler. I mean, it just is an amazing case. I mean, I think it's the best part of it is all the pictures. I'm sure Trump thinks the best partures. One more second. Let's go back to the CNN suit seventy million for damages, four hundred and seventy five for punitives and trustee of course is uh who would sign

that document? Its crazy? And there's a lot of like Raskin claims Trump has called like grip over the GOP. I mean, how would you even prove? And then there's something from Fred Zacharia show. And then there's a lot of tweets. I feel like all Trump litigation has to involve tweets. It's an absurd thing. If you google big lie Trump, you literally come up with millions of hits, CNN's malicious, every New this Organization, nbr MSNBC op eds in the Washington Post of the New York Times. I mean,

you know, we've all used the phrase. I mean, like literally that has become the standard appellation for Trump's big lie is the big line, which there's nothing really it describes it better than the big lie. The biggest lie of all that he you know, that the election was was stolen from him, the biggest lie ever told by president in American history, the biggest lie ever told by any person in public life in American history. The notion that you can be liable for just pointing that out

is absurd. Yeah, it's absurd. I just want to get back to the Trump as defendant cases. There's a document case which, again, if the d J is going to go for that, they're gonna wait until after the mid terms, right I suppose, so, yes, I'm sure that's true. And then there's the Georgia case with Fannie Wollas. Yes, the fake electors, right, yes, well, fake electors and attempts, attempts to coerce in Happensburger. Right. There's this civil case in New York. Can we talk about that for a second.

So that is the Tissue James case, which includes and I want to talk about this because I feel like people haven't talked about this. It was really last week's news cycle excitement. But in that case, she says, again, we don't know what happened to Alvin Bragg and why he's not pursuing this real estate the fraud about the misrepresentation of the size of the apartments, which is actually a real thing that people go to jail for. And I've even known people very peripherally socially who've gone to

jail for that. I mean, that is like a thing. But there's another thing there, which is she said she was going to make referrals to the I R. S and to the Southern District. Could you see a world where Trump gets taken down by taxes like Alcopo own. I don't think that's the thing that's going to do it. I do think that this civil suit by Tiss James is a big threat to him because the potential remedies under the Martin Act, the state law in New York

that she's brought suit under, our pretty severe. Can you explain that to our listeners. Well, there's a there's basically a general anti fraud act called the Martin Act, which basically hib it's all sorts of kinds of fraud, I mean, anything from you can use it for securities fraud, you can use it for general general fraud, and you can use it real estate, bank whatever. I mean. It's a very very broad anti fraud statute that allows the Attorney

General to seek relief for people who commit frauds. And it's a scary statute to defense lawyers in New York because it doesn't require proof of fraudulent intent, which is typical for a criminal case. And and also it doesn't because it's a civil civil statute. It doesn't require proof beyond a reasonable doubt on the false statements are pretty much enough. And he, you know, he's got no defense in these cases because he played played the Fifth, he

pled the Fifth hundred forty times. Um, his son's played the Fifth hundreds of times, and Weislberg pled the Fifth, you know, And in a civil case, unlike in a criminal case, if you plead the Fifth Amendment, they get to use that against you. And so I don't know how Tish James's case is in any way defensible for Trump and how he defends that, and so there's going

to be a reckoning there. But I think, you know, in terms of the criminal stuff, I don't know is the Justice Department now years later, going to take on this taxes when they basically haven't done the tax They didn't do the tax thing for years, and they they basically didn't pursue this as far as we know, I meane Trump was claiming that he was audited for many years, but we don't have any indication that there's ever been

a federal investigation into his finances or taxes. I don't know whether they're going to start doing that now, because it would be basically just like, Okay, we're gonna really do this for three years and then and then may or may not bring a case when we've got these other cases that that are actually percolating that where we got them dead to rights, like the Documents case. So

I don't see those referrals as going anywhere. The only thing is it's possible that maybe actions that she has taken her case might actually might re entervate the district attorney into reconsidering whether or not he would bring criminal but again, I don't might remind Alvin Bragg about what

he was elected to do. In mind, I don't know what Bragg's thought processes were, but you know he had in a criminal case is a higher bird improof, and it'd have to be proof of of his actual criminal intent, and without some witness like let's say Alan Weisselberg saying yeah, the boss told me to do this, that is tough. But again, the civil cases is much different, right because why there's a lower burden of proof with it. Because there's a lower burden improof. They don't have to necessarily

prove fraudulent intent for some of these claims. It's preponderance of the evidence, and they can bring in the Fifth Amendment assertions as evidence that the answers that they refused to give because of the Fifth Amendment would be adverse to them, right right, Right With the civil case, you've got Eric and Don Jr. And Ivanka, that seems like I mean, when you see Bill Barr on Telivision, one of Trump's great detractors now, and I wouldn't even say detractors.

Bill bar is really had and I think has had enough of Trump, right, Yeah, I think that's right. You know. I think his annoyance with Trump grew over the years. Here he was trying to help Trump, and then Trump would go and make things difficult for him, and I think it just finally got too much for bar And also Bart probably thinks at this point, I'm sure that Trump is a liability to the causes that he go. Bar believes in which I think all Republicans should have

concluded many years ago. Do you think that eventually they will be a sort of like, you know, if Trump's lost Bill Barr, does that mean these other Republicans or do you think it's just they just can't alienate the base, so they'll just go along with anything. Well, again, it depends on who you are. If you're if you're Bill Barr, R, it doesn't matter, doesn't matter. You're not running for anything, right, okay,

and you've you've got nothing to lose. But if you're somebody else, you're Mitch McConnelly, Lindsay Graham or Lindsay Graham, or you're Mitch McConnell. And and the foreign president you know, calls your wife out on the basis of race and tries to incite violence against you, you might not say anything because you're afraid of him. Do you think that's possible. It may may have just happened, It's true. Thank you so much, George. This is really interesting and it's always

really fun to have you. And you're not are you're you really are a number one draft pick and not a villain, I promise. Yeah. Julia Louis Dreyfus is the star of in. Dave Mandel is the executive producer of Vegan Welcoming to the show, Executive producer of Creative Genius David Mandel and veepstar our favorite president and certainly our favorite Vice President, Julia Louis Dreyfuss. Hello, you guys are doing an event for the Democrats in Wisconsin. Talk to

me about what is happening in Wisconsin. There's a lot happening in Wisconsin. I mean, it's the ultimate swing state. You know, the margin in Wisconsin was just twenty thousand in everything sort of hinges on this state. The governor and the senator are important, of course, but they're huge races. Damn ballot too. Yeah, the whole the whole ballot, up

and down. The ballot's really important. And we really have to try very hard to prevent the GOP from getting a supermajoruri in the state legislature, which you know they could do with just a few flips. We have to stop that or they'll passle sorts of crazy type of stream horrible laws and even then Governor Ever's won't be able to vetos. So we got a pedal to the medal whenever that expression means I was gonna say, there's

huge repercussions. I mean, it's an important mid term election this year, and obviously we'd love to grab the Senate seat and all these different things. But the down balled elections which are gonna affect the governor and all of that kind of stuff, that's where the dividends are going to affect the next presidential election. And this is basically where the Republican playbook of how to steal an election runs through. You have to win Wisconsin if you're gonna

start messing with election results in two years. And it sounds, you know, all of the stuff sounds like weird, crazy stuff from our show. I mean, unfortunately, it's all true right now. The Senate campaign that Ron Johnson, the Republicans and the out of out of you know, they you know, they always like to go, oh, there's Hollywood money, Hollywood money.

There's so much money flowing into the Republican campaign. They're like, you know, and you know, excuse the term dark money, which they are using to darken Mandela Barnes skin in advertising that could not be more racist if they tried. I mean, it's it's it's it's directly directly out of deep by the way, directly you feel bad. Selena did it to kemmy on the show and we sort of made it up, like, well, we didn't make it up, but you know, it's like, this is about the worst

thing we can think of. And they're like, oh, that's a great starting point. Will we'll, we'll, we'll put that in our first ad. Yeah. I don't know where we're going, but that, well, that's where we'll start. Yeah, we'll start here and let's see where it takes us exactly. It's such an interesting time in Wisconsin. Ron and on. In my mind, that's Ron Johnson strikes me as a pretty bad candidate. The record of what he says quote upon quote is just sort of horrible. The support of basically

Putin in Russia seems horrible. But he's just also a bad guy. He's one of those guys that puts himself out there as a self made man, and basically the the what he self made did was basically he married well and his father set him up and that's his you know, it's another one of those I did it all by myself and I don't want to help anyone only yoh, yeah, I'm married and kind of like my dad gave me a big factory. I mean it's a bad guy. Yeah, I mean there's also elements of medicare.

I don't want to say fraud because he was never charged and never never charged, never convicted. That's what I'm looking for my candidates. Yeah, right, exactly. You know. The other thing I want to point out too is that Josh call who's the Democratic Attorney General, is great and he would be huge for defending voting and abortion rights and voting rights, etcetera. So I just want to shout out to him. We're doing a sort of the West Wing mash up as a fund raiser, which I'm really

looking forward to. I think it's gonna be hilarious. We're gonna have a rehearsal this weekend, which I think will be a guest. It's gonna be on this coming Sunday evening, and this is all to raise funds for the with MS and hopefully beat the bad guys. That's the plan. I was just gonna throw this in. It's like Sunday, October nine, what is it? Five pm on the West coast, seven pm Central time, eight pm in the East Coast, and anyone can go I gotta just throw this in.

Go to wisdoms dot org slash veep west Wing to sign up because we uh we we really uh we want a crowd, but we're gonna I think we're gonna have a lot of fun. We get those questions all the time, sort of, I feel like the people get west Wind questions and west Wing people get sort of Veep questions. And now for the first time, we're gonna put everybody together. And I'm I'm dying to see Selena and President Bartlett. I'm dying to see Julia, you, you,

and Martin Sheen. So I'm very that my own personal excitement. Yeah, I know, but I'm a little bit nervous about it because Marty Sheen is like the greatest guy in the world. He's a very devout man religiously, and I don't want to offend him because you know how what Selena is like. So I have to figure out how to thread this needle. But well, we'll figure it out. I'll have to write him a note of apology afterwards. I suppose that's fine

from you or Selena who's writing the note. Writing on behalf of Selena, I think alogizing for her behavior as if it was like a completely other personality, which, by the way, maybe that's the answer. Yeah, exactly, as someone who has watched all of The West Wing a couple of times and all of Veep like about sixteen times, Like, I think there are a lot of people who would long for a v West Wing mashup that we're banking

on it, we hope. So it seems to be a lot of interest thus far, and God willing, they'll be even more this coming week, you know, um so I hope. So it's kind of I can't believe we've never done it before, to tell you the truth. I know, it feels like a good Snell sketch or something that we never that somehow never got done in some weird way.

But yeah, it's so it's fun because it's like there was a little bit of cross over here and there, Like Alison Janny appeared with you, right, Julia, that was before I was on the show, and that was kind of fun. And Gary Cole was on both shows, which is kind of wild. He was vice president Bingo Bob on the other show, and then obviously Kent. But story wise, it's like we did a lot of the same stories and ideas just from two very completely different angles, and

that's what's kind of fun about it. Yeah, So we're gonna just for people listening come check it out, because we're gonna do some things where people are gonna do West Wing scenes. West Wing people are gonna do Veep scenes, and we're gonna play some games. We're gonna play a game Veep West Wing or the real world, um, which is much harder than you would think, really really difficult

to identify. As we continue on in this dystopia and America becomes more and more like Veep, do you ever think like, wow, we should go back, we should do something, I mean, or do you just worry that you sort of created a few sure that somehow has me is being fulfilled? Well, I mean, I would like to go back purely selfishly, just because it was such a joyful period of time making the show. It was just endless

amounts of fun to do. Competing with the current climate that we're in, I'm not sure how we could come back, but maybe we could. I don't know. I mean, I'm always up for a conversation about it. I just don't know how we do it exactly. What do you think Dave. Yeah, I mean I sort of unfortunately feel the same way, which is, I think we are so much funnier when

like government is trying to be good. The Biden sort of administration has been a start, and maybe perhaps a second term or another Democrat one way or another, maybe we can start to have that conversation. But when you spend your days like doing things like this veep West wing thing, which we're doing because we're worried about people stealing the election in two years, do you know what

I mean? Like actually stealing it, not the fake not the fake nonsense, but like a legitimate attempt to steal something. Like it's just hard to make this all funny. The comedy of Oh, senators and congressmen might start getting attacked. It's just less enjoyable, you know. It's just, uh, when democracy is in peril, it takes the irony out of the irony, doesn't it. It's almost like the yeah, there's

no straight line anymore. You know, it's like you're funny because like, oh, this is what it should be, but we're doing this, but there's no Now, this this is what it should be. It's just they're insane, and so you know, back to like on our show, we have Selena make the candidates skin even darker, you know what I mean. It's like, that's like, that's not exactly it

sort of stops being a joke unfortunately. Well, I think you've hit the sort of the upper ceiling of satire, right, Like, if things are just continually getting worse, you almost can't have satire. I think you can have satire. It's just a question of the kind of the tone and the style of the satire. It's just a question of I think that I satire has a place in the world. I think under all circumstances. But I'm just not sure

our style of senter Well, I don't know. I reserve the right to change my mind on this if it might still work. It's harder to outdo them in terms of that kind of satire. Yes, yes, and and certainly yes, they should be deflated and they should be attacked in sort of all sorts of wonderful ways. I'm just not sure showing that they're bad by us being even worse

keeps working. Maybe it's that construction. I don't know. But oh god, if when satire dies, that is truly when I you know, buy my way into Portugal or wherever, wherever I'm wherever. We're all moving later. I don't know, as you know, that's the plan. So yeah, let's just have two more seconds on Wisconsin. So Governor Iver's is a big race. Then there's a Senate race, which is a Mandela Barnes, he's come on the podcast. He's really

a great candidate who is being targeted. And then there are all these down ballot races, right, yeah, Julia mentioned the Secretary of State and then they have to hold the legislature because you can if you have the governor and the Republicans have a supermajority, then they can rule him. Yeah, exactly, over ride over rule. Sorry, and uh and yeah, so it is just it is so important. Just again, we just we keep saying it's like this mantra for us,

just up and down the ballot, up and down the ballot. Wisconsin, Wisconsin, Wisconsin, and the Wisconsin Dems there are a really good state organization and uh, you know, they make they make your money go far with their organization, getting people out, getting the vote out, and and so it's a it's a good dollar to spend. Yeah, and you can sign up for the VIEP West Wing event, Like at any level, no one's like, you gotta give a million dollars, give what you can, any amount gets you into the event.

There's gonna be some giveaways and stuff. I honestly think it's going to be really fun. You're gonna get a chance to hear what the VP people being earnest, and you're gonna get to hear some of the West Wing people curse. So that alone should make you want to come and stein up. So please, Yeah, who are you expecting from VEEP and who are you expecting from West Wing? Excellent, excellent question. I'm gonna be there. You'll be there. I think gonna be there. Bradley Whitford is going to be there.

I believe Tony Hell is gonna be there. Oh, he's amazing, it's amazing. Tim Simmons is going to be there. Matt Walsh an clumsky, and Matt Walsh is the only good Matt Walsh, just for those in the podcast world, because there's the good Matt Wash the actor, and then there's the bad Matt Walsh. Julia, I'm gonna tell this story and I'm sorry, so I hope it's okay. Please do. I was so horrified. I get a text from Julia.

This is like a couple of weeks ago. I get a text from Julia and it's just like, what is going on with Matt? Like it was just literally like has he lost his mind? Is this some kind of a joke? Is he trying to make a joke that's not landing? And I can't remember what he said it was. It was so horribly wrong and so right wing, felt sort of a little fascist. I can't even remember what it was. It was really crazy. I thought my friend Matt had had a kind of a nervous breakdown or something.

I couldn't figure out what's going on. Dai had to tell me. I didn't realize that there was a nut job out there like that. So, yeah, that's that's the other Matt Wah. Sorry, yeah, so it was all good, but it was really funny. Yeah, whenever I see him trend, I'm like, you, guys, there's only one good Matt Wash and it's the one from Veep. Yeah, totally Matt Wash. Just tell us the details again one more time before

we let you go. Oh my gosh, it's a wisdoms dot org slashed Veep West Wing wisdoms dot Org slash Veep West Wing Sunday, October nine, at five pm Pacific times, seven pm Central Time at eight pm Eastern Time. A whole bunch of the cast of West Wing and Veep coming together. We're gonna be doing uh each other's scenes. We're gonna be writing some scenes. We're gonna try in west Wing eyes some Veep scenes. We're gonna veep up some west Wing scenes. We're gonna play the game, which is, uh,

it's very hard. I brought one with me. You want to hear it? Molly, Let's see if okay, um, hold on, let me let me find it. This is this is I don't know that you have to be a fan of something. I'm a fan of both So and Jesse should also guess, okay what show ready, Veep, West Wing or real life? Okay, So could be real life, could be Trump or a Republican or anyone or somebody good, could be something, you know whatever. And the quote is crime boy, I don't know, I feel like it's Veep.

I'm going west Wind. You're right, Jesse, west Wing? What? Yeah? It was it was the guy that Martin Sheen ran against played by James Brolind sort of be there, kind of George Bush stand in and crime boy. I don't know, dot dot dot. Yeah. Yeah. So anybody can come to the party, and you can. Any amount of donation will be accepted with open arms, and the more we raise, the better for Wisconsin and the nation. So please join

us on Sunday. We'd love to have you. I was saying, no, we're going to use all the money to try and lighten the photos of Mandela Barnes. I think that's where we're gonna We're gonna spend a lot of money. So um, yes, Thank you so much, Dave Mandel and Julia Louis Dreyfuss for joining us. Thank you as always, Molly, thank you, Thank you. Dita Nessel is the Attorney General of Michigan. Welcome to Fast Politics. Attorney General Nestle, thanks for having me.

Is that what people call you? Like a g or does they just they just call you Dana? Right, there's no like weird honorarium. Well, you can call me data. But I say that one of the things I think a lot of people don't know is that the proper terminology when you're addressing an attorney general is to call them general so and so so oh. I actually didn't

know that until before I was elected. I was hanging out with a bunch of the Democratic ages at a conference and they heard everybody addressing each other is you know General Rosenbloom and General Shapiro and General Healey, And I was like, this is very cool, because I'm the kind of person that I only played paintball once because it hurts so bad. So to be called the general is um. I'm not sure that it's exactly fitting, but you know, I'll take it. So let's talk about the

last time I interviewed you. I think it was like before this race, and there was a lot of worry that the three women Democrats in Michigan. I mean, I think there was a lot of worry all of us because Michigan is such an important state and you have such a really militant far right militia there. But it seems like you guys are doing really well, all three of you in your races Secretary of State, A G and governor. I feel like you're such an important swing state.

What do you think the secret is of your success? Right now? And obviously no one knows what will happen. But yeah, well I don't I don't think it's a secret. I think it's pretty obvious actually, is that, you know, the Republican Party is so radicalized. Now. I know they loved called Democrats radicalized, but when you really think about it, Democrats, at least in Michigan, we represent the status quo. The status quo being that, you know, birth control should remain

legal and accessible. Abortion, you know, I mean, if you if you look at the position of the Republicans running in this race, I mean, I'm running against the guy who it's not just that he is happy to enforce our nineteen thirty one law that is no exception for rape, no exception for incests, and no exception to protect the health of the mother, but he went to step further and said he's going to prosecute abortion even if it involves having to save the life of the pregnant woman,

that he would still prosecute even under those circumstances. So I think that a lot of people have taken a look at some of these candidates, all of him, by the way, our election deniers and have have clearly said no, thank you, we're not interested in that, and That's why I think at this point at least the pools are what they are. Again, you know, polls are one thing and actual votes are another. But I think that the

electorate here finds these candidates to be frightening. So, speaking of your opponent, he compared Plan B, which is I feel like it's important to just talk about this for a minute. Plan B is a pill you take the day after you think you might have unprotected sex, and your opponent compared it to Fenton al can you explain? I mean, you know, firstly, he imustrated a complete lack of knowledge about what Plan B even is. You know, um,

this is not an abortion inducing medication. It actually is taken, you know, as you were suggested in emergency situations, a large dose of hormones that causes the body to be released. It prevents the egg and sperm from joining into us I got, And it prevents the if there is as I get, it prevents it from being implanted, uh, into the lining of the uterus. So you really you prevent

a pregnancy from occurring. So even if you are someone who is hard and fast and believing that even at the very very very very earliest stages of pregnancy, that abortion is inappropriate, or you opposed that this is not an abortion medication, it prevents pregnancy from occurring. But the interesting thing was my opponent. First he asked, when he was asked about it, what is Plan B. But then when it was explained to him, he said, oh, yeah,

that should be banned. We should treat it like legal fetinal shipments that come from without, you know, outside the border of our state, not understanding that it's it's sold within pharmacies all around the state of Michigan routinely. Isn't it just a couple of birth control pills? Yes, But the thing was, even when he knew and understood what

it was, he continued to oppose it. And of course we can all laugh about it, except for we're in a position where, you know, we may very well soon see griswold Be, Connecticut overturned the seminal case that allowed the legality of birth control in all fifty states both to be sold uh and to be used in that case by a married couple, and so for him to still be you know, he's been very clear that he believes that griswold Be Connecticut was not properly decided and

it should be overturned. That's what my opponent indicates, as well as, of course, just as Clarence Thomas of the Supreme Court, who vindicated the same but then to say that he believes that should be treated the same as a very very serious narcotic which is killing people all across this country. You know, so many faentinal death type stopped counting in the state of Michigan into you know, to equate those two types of pharmaceuticals. I mean, it's

just it's incredible to me. Yeah, I mean, it's just such an interesting situation because you do have the Supreme Court. I'm curious, Like I've talked to a lot of court watchers, and a lot of them have this sort of pit in their stomach about this session. I mean, what's your feeling. Yeah,

I I hear their concerns. I think it's sad that people's faith in the judicial system has been rocked by firstly, of course, our United States Supreme Court and just the really different unfairness to firstly, how those individuals got seated on the Court in the first place. But they're very extra positions that are not at all in line with

the vast majority of Americans. But this is a court that seems determined to move as quickly as possible to undo the progress that's been made by the Court over the course of many, many decades, and when it comes to issues that involved governing not just women's reproductive rights, but really you know, they're they're their morality police, right.

It's not just that we're talking about birth control or abortion, but you know, they seem intend to, you know, to undo the progress made in regard to same sex marriage or even if you look at Lawrence fe Texas, which I think is on the up chopping plot block, the ability for a state to govern what kind of intimate acts people can engage in with one another, even if

they are consensual adults. I was at the University of Michigan yesterday where I graduated from many moons ago, and I remember my senior year having read Margaret at was The Handmaid's Tale, which now everybody knows it's part of common knowledge and lexicon, and you know it's streaming regularly, and I mean it's dystopian fiction, is the way that it was phrased when I first read it back in probably and now it's like we're inching closer to that

just being our reality. And I guess the question is, are our Americans around this country or we can stand for it understanding that you know, those who feel the way these six justices and the Supreme Court field are in the very much in the minority in terms of how people view the ability of government to regulate what goes on in our bedrooms. Yeah, it's funny because I am old enough to remember libertarians who seem to no longer exist, but they used to not want government intervention.

But now that's I guess over Yeah, and you know it's it's funny. I was thinking about you when we booked this, because you know, now we're we're seeing this bizarre book by Ending all over the nation, and we're having the same debates across the state of Michigan. And it's mostly these Republican activists that are trying to frankly, stir up trouble and create myths about what goes on

in our public libraries. But it made me laugh because I remember being a middle school or even I think a high school student and reading one of your mom's books, and you know, everybody wanted to get their hands on that book, right that book Judy Blooms Forever, I'll never forget. Yes, there was a lot of talk about whether those books should be um permitted to be in our library system.

My recollection is you could never actually get a hold of the book because somebody had already always checked it out and you could use there's a long waiting list for it. But and when I finally read it was because my mom had purchased it and I stole it out of her closet. But you know, I don't remember like outrage against straight people for you know, having the audacity to have their sex. I've discussed in pretty graphic form in books. Nobody said, like straight people they are

reading everything. But when you have books that have graphic LGBTQ content, then it's like it's a very different story. You know. It's kind of a way in to be able to discriminate against people. It's just sort of terrifying and fascinating and strange and also quite scary. There is Republican running for governor in Minnesota who believed this viral joke about a kid who identified as a cat and

having a cat letter box in the lower school. And then you have in uh, you have the guy who is running for governor in Pennsylvania who is saying he's going to stop pole dancing and pornography from happening in schools. I mean, are you seeing this kind of Republican panic about schools and fearmongering about things that don't even happen in schools all over the state of Michigan. That's happening

right now. And what what's sad? And I think it drives people away from wanting to be public servants and to aspire to elected office. Is that well, you can't even make a joke nowadays, even in the context where you're clearly being sarcastic or ironic. The Republicans will just take anything you say and run with it as though it's a formal public policy statement. I have just never seen such humorless people in my life, and I've never

seen such intolerance in my life as well. I mean, getting to a point that I think is incredibly scary because what it does is it it really the very dangerous rhetoric that the Republicans traffic, and now it escalates the commission of hate crimes because they are constantly other rising people. And if you happen to be one of

the targets of their other rising. It really grants permission for those who want to do harm to people and who have the capacity to do it thanks to the fact that it's so easy to act sas fire arms of every kind in our state and around America. It's creating this escalation in in hate crimes and domestic terrorism. And today my lawyers as we speak, are in trial on the Wolverine Watchman case, where of course there's this plot to abduct and assassinate a sitting governor in our state.

And I don't know if those things would have happened without having a Republican party that was so dismissive or I don't want to just say condones that kind of violent rhetoric, but I would say support said I mean, I'm running against a guy who talks about paling around with the Proud Boys, who talks about the plot to, you know, to kidnap the governor as something that the FBI had orchestrated and that there's no merit to it. You know, who supports the insurrectionists on January six one

in our nation's capital. And he's running to be the top law enforcement officer for a state of over ten million people. It's just shocking. I mean, these people are being punished, right, I mean the January six riders, Like a lot of these people went to jail. I mean, do you see any way to sort of sort of stop this kind of vitriol and violence. Well, I mean, I'm sort of hopeful. I don't know if this will work or not. I'm hopeful that by these extremist candidates losing.

Not I know, they're not gonna lose everywhere, but with for instance, the public turning away from Donald Trump, for instance, and he is obviously first and foremost the worst offender of this kind of language. I mean just even his rhetoric the other day about the former Secretary of Transportation and the anti Asian sentiment. And the more he talks like that, and the more the party embraces that, I think,

the more they're gonna lose elections. So I'm hopeful that there will be at some point, you know, the understanding that if that's the way that you're going to talk and act, you're probably not going to be in his essitions of authority. So that that's one of my hopes. But there are other things obviously that we need to do. We need to strengthen domestic terrorist laws federally. We have, you know, almost a complete lack of ability to enforce

domestic terrorism. In my state we happen to luckily, but most states that's not the case. So that's something that we're going to have to work on. Obviously, the easy accessibility of firearms, as long as you even have a few extremists out there, but they have easy access to assault weapons, then just a handful of people can cause a whole lot of violence and damage and injury and death and mayhem. So that's something that we're going to

have to work on. But really, our country is just going to have to pull it together, and I'm not sure how you do that with people like Donald Trump is still out there, who are the leaders of one of our two major political parties, and that each and every person who runs for office seemingly um has to bow down to him in order to get the nomination of their party. Yeah, I mean, it just seems to me. The thing we've seen is that the more there is of this vitriol, the more you know, it leads to

hate crimes, like so you can see it. I mean, I remember reading is to study that show that like, you know, where Trump went, then there were you know, incidences that followed. I mean, it just was so clear that there was really a through line. Oh yeah, I absolutely believe that. And that's the reason that we have an entire division in my office that is dedicated to tackling hate crimes. And we worked closely with law enforcement all over the state. We work, you know, with federal authorities,

we work with local authorities. You know, we're trying our best, but the better thing would be if we did not have, uh, those in positions of great authority who were egging these folks on and supporting them. Until we see a drastic shift in the public narrative, I think we're going to continue to have issues. Yeah, thank you so much, Dana Nessel, thanks for having me. No, Molly John Fast, who is this again? Now? I'm just kidding. Jesse Cannon, four hundred

fifty five episodes of you Forgot by day. I didn't forget. I just kept distracted by a shiny object called Christian Walker. Yeah about last night. We have our bubby. We're gonna actually do too because we're so excited about all the news. So the Daily Beast the platform that birthed my podcasting career, so I'm quite indebted to them. One Roger Sellenberger, no relation to Sully Sellenberger. We don't know that it's a different name versus you're right, you're right. I mean maybe

they're related, Okay. One of their related Sully Sellenberger's son, Roger Sellenberger, who has changed the spelling of his name so that people don't he doesn't get you charged with nepotism. He has broken this incredible story, incredible story but also deeply unsurprising story about herschel Walker paying for abortion for now. And we should also say Roger also broke the stories of all the other families herschel had before this, above

other things. Right, he's on the herschel Walker pro creation beat. Is that fair? Yeah? I mean Roger's reporting it's very rare that reporting really makes a difference in an election. But his reporting is a domino that who fell real fast. Last night we read the reporting which included a hand signed to get well card after said abortion a check and I mean talk about receipts. You know, I think there's a valuable lesson here, which is, if you're going to run for Senate and you are going to pay

for many abortions, don't use a check. You know. One might say that Steve Schmitzel saying of that running for office is a full body skin. It also is a full receipcher skin. Yeah, so that is pretty interesting. But what is probably more interesting is that soon after the allegations about herschel Walker's abortion paying came out, Christian Walker, herschel Walker's Christian TikTok influencers, son started tweeting these tweets.

I'm gonna start with the first one, and actually, in my mind, there's like a big element of tragedy here. Though Jesse and I have been arguing about this. He feels that Christian Walker is sort of a monster, But I do think he is also the victim of domestic abuse. So we have to be a little bit compassionate here. I know my mom and I would really appreciate it if my father, herschel Walker stopped lying and making a mockery of us. You're not a family man when you

left us to bang a bunch of women again. You know, not the kind of feminist language that I would appreciate. But okay, Kama threatened to kill us and had us moved six times in six months running from your violence, and that the mother has gone on the record and said that the father had put a gun to her head. I mean, it's continually the story of herschel Walker's domestic

abuse has has been chronicled throughout the campaign. I don't care about someone who has a bad past and takes accountability, Christian Walker continues. But and then we go to all caps, how dare you lie and act as though you're some kind of quote moral Christian upright man. You're living a life of destroying other people's lives. How dare you? And

then there was more. Greg Kelly got involved in this because why news max is own Greg Kelly, who has of course the son of former police chief Ray Kelly, who has his own allegations, He got involved in this, you know, and Christian Walker sort of slapped him down. And then this morning, Christian Walker made a video. I stayed silent as the atrocities committed against my mom were downplayed.

I stayed silent when it came out that my father, herschel Walker, out all these random kids across the country, none of whom he raised. And you know, my favorite issue to talk about is father absence. Surprised because it affected me. That's why I talked about it all the time, because it affected me. Family values people. He has four kids, four different women. Wasn't in the house raising one of them. He was out having sets with other women. Do you

care about family values? I was silent, Lie after life after life. The abortion car drops yesterday. It's literally his handwriting in the car. They say they have receipts. Whatever he gets on Twitter, he lies about it. Okay, I'm done done. So here's my thing. I've read a lot of these articles where people bespirched the jet z as they say, oh god, we're gonna have elections determined by influitzers. But who knew this was gonna be the first election

determined by it in Fluitzer and a Christian influencer at that. Yeah, that does not act very Christian. All is hated bigotry. I mean that kid is the thing that makes me lose sympathy for him is that it seems he's more about as brand is rude than anything else. We still have to watch how this plays out, but it's certainly is wild stuff and it definitely gets to be the

first part of our moment of gery. Jesse Cannon, what's our second part of the moment of well, you told me that you had a bone to pick at a few to break with one. Elon mush Elon mush Rich guy hot take machine has weighed in on the invasion of Ukraine, and he has a few thoughts. It's so easy to not inject yourself into world diploma, say, but here we are. What I think is interesting is he does a highly scientific thing, a Twitter poll, which, as

we know, is almost as accurate as actual polling. Well. I liked when he said, when it started going badly for him that he's never seen a poll with more butts. Let's try this then, the will of the people who decide who live in the dom Bass and Crimea should be decided whether they're part of Russia or Ukraine. I don't know the will of the people who live in the dom Bass and Crimea should be decided whether they're part of Russia or Ukraine. It's baffling, yes or now.

I don't even know how you vote on this. It's always amazing to me that when you're a rich white guy you get this thing like Douglas Rushcough told us you lose upathy. But the study I want to see is why they think that they know everything on every suntime. I love it. I have to tell you, like Ellen, keep going, buddy, keep taking that whole chiefe exactly. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to your the best minds in politics makes

sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please ended to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening. M HM.