Jen Psaki, Rick Wilson & John Heilemann

the White House to member of the media. Then the circuses, John Heilman will join us to talk Trump's Waco, Texas rallies symbolism. But first we have the host of the Enemy's List, the one, the Only, the Lincoln Projects, Rick Wilson, Rick Wilson, Molly John Fast. I am here with you. Hey, you're back. I am everywhere I surround the world. You're back from wherever it was he were led undisclosed West Coast locations, various disclosed locations. To talk about the thirty

six counts. There's thirty four counts of indictment that he or incitement as Trump likes to call it, all caps that Alvin Bragg has dropped today discuss President Capslock was having a terrible evening. But I must say I think he's probably there's a part of Trump that is absolutely

in fucking heaven right now. He knows there will be no other story on cable news for the next several days, possibly including CNN, which may notice somehow that they have to report on this and not cover things like the crisis of Bolivian flute manufacturing. He knows he's going to be in the spotlight. He knows that the charges will never be heard before the election of twenty twenty four.

He knows that even if he gets one asshole on the jury, he walks away and you know what, Manhattan maybe eighty five percent Democrat, but he'll find an asshole on that journey. So I have been saying, look, I'm glad it happened. I'm glad that there was a sign that the rule of law in this country, even at the state level, was going to be upheld, and not say, yeah, you know what, Trump gets a pass. You know, look, I don't think I don't think anything we've seen tonight

changes the position Trump has in the political culture. He is still the center of every bit of the MAGA universe. You saw every single Republican so far that I've seen, and I don't grant you. I haven't seen anything from Christy or Romney yet tonight, so I'll leave those on the table for now. But every single elected Republican or Republican president will want to be is route there, stumbling over themselves, racing to be the one who says no, no,

not only do well, I defend Trump. I'll serve your time, mister President. They're all sucking up at a level you know that is now should now be the expected mode for these people. It's the law, doesn't matter. Trump is

innocent no matter what. It's only the deep state. It's just the evil Jewish black conspiracy of Soros and his quote unquote animal day so I was on my way home from a dinner or night, was listening to a Twitter space that like broke in the middle, and in it some one Trumper was explaining to someone else, a non Trumper, how this was all about Soros. Oh yeah, yeah, And look, let's not put too fine a point on it.

The quiet part is way out loud these days, as we both know, the anti Semitic trope of the Jewish mastermind controlling everything from behind the scenes. It probably sounded better in the original German. But it's here we are now, and they're gonna blame Soros for this. Every single one of these Republicans de Santis and Young Ken and a bunch of others I've seen so far, they always mentioned

the Soros controlled prosecutor. He's an animal, yes, calling calling George Sorrows a crafty, devious manipulator behind the scenes, and calling Alvin Bragg a savage animal. Those aren't that that dog? I can barely hear that dog whistle, it's true. I mean, I just don't think that's the most convincing case against Alvin.

There's there's a lot of arguments that there's a lot of arguments that this is overcharging and and those are also the tax cases was a better case than And did Syvance fuck this all up by not moving the bigger cases sooner? And is there some sense of like trying to relieve pressure in the system. I don't know, But but look, we've never had an American president, not one, not ever, not even Richard fucking Nixon. Get perp walked into a building, stood in front of a camera, fingerprinted

right read in indicted. Maybe he's in handcuffs, Maybe the Secret Service doesn't allow it. Who knows, I don't. I certainly don't. No, but Donald Trump is about to enter a whole new realm of notoriety that he never expected to be in. And that new role of notoriety is going to be the first president with a mug shot. And if you don't think I'm selling the living fuck out of Trump indictment mugs, I mean that ship looking project store. Folks, you get you trust me on this one.

You're gonna you're gonna see that. You're gonna see that merch we got. We're gonna have a hardcore merch action. I mean, it's funny because today was the day that Gwyneth got off right, thank God. I mean all I could think of today was justice for Gwyneth, Justice for Gwyneth. What's in the box now, asshole? I stole an Andy tweet, but it's a brilliant one, because remember, Gwyneth Paltrow was

in seven. But I do want to I just want to roll it back here for a minute to not distract us from Gwyneth Paltrow and just say the few people in the Republican Party who still believed that DeSantis would save them are so pissed tonight. Let me tell you I actually heard from one of his I heard from the donor advisor to one of his gigantic superstar Wall Street Prizes, one of the guys he's been walking around swinging his dick around in politics like I've got exit.

I took him from Donald because I'm a Harvard's man. I'm a jail man, right. The donor advisor, this person called me tonight and he's like, I don't think I can change my boss's mind yet. But god damn, that was fucking embarrassing because putting that tweet out basically said that Rhnda Santis is a gigantic and I will use the technical term the alt right is so familiar with Kuck.

He basically said, Oh yes, Donald, I'm willing as a governor to say that I will obstruct justice and obstruct the law to protect you politically so that I can then run against you in a Republican primary. It's the most nonsensical, amateur, our, jokey, fucking bullshit I've ever heard in my life. I've always said this, I've said this a year ago, started saying this. Ron De Santis is an overpriced political stock. He is not good with people

and folks. I'm making a lot of air quotes right now, Like my hands are going to be sore from all the air quotes I'm making. He's not comfortable, yes, with humans, Oh yes, I am not paying attention to the camera, young lady. He's not comfortable with humans. He doesn't like people contact. There's something off putting about him, as if he's the last thing you see when you're being shoved

into a trunk from a car to go to his layer. No. Look, you knew this guy would suck it up eventually, because tonight. So for the last let's say two weeks, there's been this little sprit scene between de Santas and Trump. And DeSantis he tried in the most lame, fucking passive, aggressive, like pussy footing way, I don't know anythink about paying a stare. And so Trump is immediately like, oh, comes out like run to Santa said sex with men and women and he's a groomer. Yeah, guarns he did, because

that's how Trump works. Once you hit Trump. First off, you can't like slap fight Trump. You can't like pop him and then run away. You can't do what Marco and Jeb and the rest of the idiots in twenty sixteen thought, well, my focus group has come up with a heck of a one liner, and I'm gonna whom it out and get him on the stage and the New York Times will salute my wit. Yeah. No, once you start fighting with Trump, you've got to kick that motherfucker in the balls. You gotta knock him down, you

gotta break teeth out. You gotta keep hitting him and hitting him and hitting him. Right. I mean, you fought with Trump for years and years and years, right, and I'm like one of the only people. And I've got a lot of scar tissue, but I'm like one of the only people that no matter what he kept saying about me, I kept getting back in his fucking head and beating him more. Yeah. But for these politicians, they're

so afraid of this balancing act. And right now DeSantis has trying to play this very clever it's clever in his head, which they have this very clever construct that he thinks is going to work, which is to go into billionaire donors, you know, like Ken Griffith and Mary Madelson and all those and the people say, I'm a normal person. Now I have to give those rooms a little bit of boom bait. I have to throw them some red meat. But I'll be a regular Republican president.

Would you like your tax cut in a large or extra large? And would you like that in a loafer or a pump. But he's been trying to play that game. But the reality of the Republican primarily has always been that why do you want diet Trump? Because as you may have noticed, people at MAGA rallies are not exactly here for the diet version of anything. They're here for the full fat, high salt, high caffeine monster energy drink

of Donald Trump. And Trump is um And so this idea of DeSantis plying trying to play up the middle, it was always doomed to fail. And tonight when he puts that tweet out out and basically says, I'll throw my body in front of them. I will not let the law enforcement come to my state to offend, to offend your sacred flesh, Donald, it was pathetic. It was feudal.

Because Trump's going to turn himself in because he wants to wants to do the purple Yeah, He's gonna go out there and put the fist in the air, and he's gonna do the whole the whole thing. And the fact the matter is this is a net positive for Trump. None of these other candidates are out there right now saying, see, this is the proof that Donald Trump should never ever, ever be within a billion j jillion miles of any

political office ever again. He is a criminal and a scumbag. Instead, Lindsey Graham is on Fox tonight literally weeping like I mean. And Don Junior of course, and as I as I queeted today, Don Junior's comparing Alvin Bragg to Mao and pol Pot And as I said, you know, his his his his his context of history is full of holes. Is his septum. This is a guy. These people are losing their fucking minds over this stuff. And Trump himself, though, is in a more secure position than he has been

politically in a very long time. Right now, this was a good Apparently I will also receive the text while we were doing doing this. Apparently Q and On is back tonight saying that this is all part of the plan. Trust l ros is panicking when it is Trump going to go inside prison so he could discover the pedophile rings. I mean, just unbelievable. I mean, yeah, good for him. You don't see that enough, You really don't, really, you

really don't. And there's a sense of there's a sense in my mind of of why bother with the Republican primary when all your opponents basically are are asking you, like, you know, can I can I give you another foot massage? Sir? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I think ultimately that is what it is, right, the fear of Trump, the fear of the mob, the fear of the base. And look, Fox News for every

bit of Rupert's bullshit, I'm gonna brank him. Trump will be a non person when I've done with him, He'll be like a small, desiccated chunk of lizard shit in the a back. Sorry, I'm just doing my worst Australian accent, supposed to my best Australian accent, which is the same one. But look, they're they're back twenty four seven on Trump. Now they found a villain. It's Alvin Bragg. He happens to be a black guy who they're going to say a hundred billion times in the next week or two.

The black guy controlled by the Jewish mastermind because their audience is so sophisticated about these things, they need to have it laid out to them in simpler terms. And again, it was always more clear and disturber in the nineteen thirties. But you know, Sean Handy's German is awful. Rick Wilson, We're so punchy and tired, but I came off the Red Eye. I've had about one hour asleep in the

last thirty six and damn I'm punching. Jen Saki is the host of MSNBC's Inside with Jensaki on Sundays at twelve pm Eastern, and the former White House Press Secretary for President Joe Biden. Welcome to Fast Politics. Jen, It's great to be here on Fast Politics. Should be Molly, thanks for having me. Delighted to have you. I want to talk to you about what's going on, but I also want to talk to you about how completely in saying everything is. First, well, let's just talk about your show.

You have a new show. It is huge, huge success. Yes, thank you. They're going to let us do a third show and a fourth show, I hope. So that's exciting. You're coming from the administration to the media. I mean that's actually a pretty big deal. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely been some adjustments. One I had worked, which is a funny thing to say as this is coming out of my mouth, but I had worked in the White

House longer than anywhere else in my life. I knew the security guards, I knew what to order at the lunch counter. I knew where all the secret bathrooms were. Right. So part of my adjustment was coming into a new place and the big company like NBC and MSNBC, which is a huge opportunity because there's so many things going on on any given day. But that was part of my adjustment. Smaller parts of it has been just learning

the mechanics of television news. I could probably talk about Russia, Ukraine, democratic politics, the debt limit until somebody stops me from talking.

But I'm still learning about things like hues and commercials and timing, and so I've been working with great people who've been doing this a long time to teach me all the ins and outs we're finding ourselves in this weird period of Biden has really overperformed in all of these elections, maybe because he's a genius, maybe because the circumstances have been incredibly good for him in turn ways,

it's sort of an unprecedented time and democratic politics. It's an unprecedented time in politics, or I think we can say, and that impacts democratic politics. The thing about President Biden is that he's pretty used to being underestimated. I saw this when I was working for him for a year and a half as the White House Press secretary, but

even when he was the Vice president. And sometimes people forget that the guy's been around the political world for fifty plus years and well, he may not always be trending on Twitter in the right way, he has kind of a connection with what people need, what they care about, how to speak to people in their communities who may not be paying attention to every single ebb and flow of whatever debate or craziness Kevin McCarthy's up to, if

that makes sense, right people in their communities. But I also think it's a really exciting time in democratic politics because there are so many new and interesting voices out there. And I mean, is one of the things we want to do on the show is I lift some of

those people up and introduced them to the country. But as much as it seems pretty clear at this point, it would be more shocking if he didn't run than if he did at this point, Joe Biden, and it doesn't seem like at this point that there's a long way to go, of course, that he's going to have

a big primary challenge. So as much as that seems to be where the presidential race is headed, there's also all sorts of like interesting, different compelling voices in democratic politics speaking out against everything from Trump's crazy antics to the need for gun reforms to all sorts of things. And that's an exciting time, I think exciting part of what's happening. Right He's definitely going to run again, he hasn't announced yet. There's definitely an anxiety there, you mean

among the public. Yeah, yeah, Look, if you're in the White House right now, you are certainly aware of the fact that Joe Biden is eighty years old, right, which, by the way, Trump is seventy six. So you know there's that I think that if Trump runs against Biden, it's not going to be an issue. I mean, there's no world in which anyone is like that. You know, that is not the issue. The but and I don't think there's a world where you could look at Biden

and say he won three elections. He has his story. I mean, this Mittrum was a crazy election, right, they barely lost the House. You can't say to that president, oh no, you don't run again because you're too old. I mean, that would be like political malpractice. But in

the same sense you have to have that anxiety. I mean, just actual ely, what is true is that one of the most effective attacks that has come from the right and the barrels of the internets and wherever it comes from, is this notion or question of whether President Biden is up to the job because he is the oldest president in history, right, I mean, as I got to state

what it is. Right. At the same time, what's also true is that, you know, during the transition, which I worked on and I didn't work on the campaign, as you know, but I worked on the transition, there was a lot of skepticism from progressives in the party and from others who cared about a range of issues, from addressing the climate crisis to doing more on guns, to whatever the issue may have been, that he would actually

push for big change, and he did, right. So what's working I think for him and them is that fact he actually has a record to run on. Now, as you and I both know, the totality of winning a presidential election is not just about your record. Part of it is about that and should be about that. It's

about what contrast you are with the other side. And for him, you know, he always uses the saying, which he's not the first to use, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative, right, which is basically what a politics is. Right. You know, politics is not about this is the perfect person with the perfect candidacy, who has the perfect resume and perfect background. One, those people are boring and they never make their way through

the political world. But two, it's about are you a better alternative? And you know it's interesting because I think back in the fall, if you would have asked me if we're having this conversation then, and we'd have asked me, well,

when do you think he would announce? I would have said at the time, like, oh gosh, early in the year, right, But now it seems actually pretty clear if you're sitting in the White House right now, why you haven't yet because the other side is like self combusting against each

other right there. You know you have Ron de Santists and Donald Trump, who at this moment are the two leading candidates for the Republican nomination, right, who are throwing so much different spaghetti up against the wall at each other just to try to take the other person out. Well, that's happening. All you really need to do if you're Joe Biden is like be president and be kind of like staying and stable and me with foreign leaders and try to push policy through and be frankly presidential and

above politics in some ways. And so that's and also kind of inform the public in different communities about what you've actually done. That's sort of this stage. Obviously, if and when he gets into the race, the gloves come off from his end to I mean, I have this theory that he's actually a better president than he might have been in his younger days, and that part of I mean, again, this is just like a theory, and it's a crazy theory. It's one of these theories that

I think about. But you know that he's actually much better than he would have been twenty years ago because he sort of has a kind of humility towards him, and he also tends to be kind of a consensus builder in a way that you might not see a younger. You know, he's sort of like you would be hard pressed to find. And again the Democratic Party, right, it's an organized party. It's a huge group of people. We're not all against democracy or something, but you'd be hard

pressed to find a group that's really not Hant. He hasn't sort of done something for that they had, that was sort of on their list that they wanted. I mean, it's such an interesting point in Molly that like he's a better president now. I mean part of that is also that it's like what president do you need in the moment? Right? There are other moments where he's run where he would have done a great job but maybe wasn't exactly what the country maybe needed in the moment.

And there are aspects of his background. If you look at Ukraine and sort of his background in foreign policy, and it's the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. It's not that every president would have spent hours and hours of time on the phone with European leaders in advance of even an invasion happening, right, But he did that because he'd been working in the foreign policy world for decades. Even things like I remember meeting with him about the

Press secretary job. And it's funny because before I met with him, I was thinking, like I needed to just study up and know everything about every issue in the world. I don't know, That's why what I thought as if he was going to like grill me on the South China see in our conversation, I just didn't know. But what we talked about a lot was needing to kind

of heal the nerves of the public. Right. And to your point, I mean, part of what his superpower is is that at his core he is a consensus builder and is drawn to that right, he is an empathizer in chief, you know, I mean like when people have loss, when they are when they are hurting, and the country was very much hurting, right, So in that sense he had a lot of the qualities of what people needed in the moment, right. I also think there was a

certain sense in which he just was very elexable candidate. Yeah, And you know, sometimes it's like, what does that mean? Right? What means they get elected? Right? Because it can mean all sorts of things. But I think there was probably during the primary process, and I'm guilty of this too. I wasn't working on the campaign, kind of an underestimation

of his political power, right, and political effectiveness. It's like, I remember being in Iowa during the primary, and it didn't I mean, he got fourth or fifth or whenever place he got there during the caucus. It didn't really feel like he was barreling toward the nomination to anyone, right, But you know, and then it was like, well, and he also doesn't have a good social media game or whatever the manny ranges of critiques were at the time.

But then the reality is that where he won was by winning over what is essentially still the base of the party, which is like African American voters in South Carolina and other part and other I was gonna say March madness. It kind of is March madness, but basketball other primaries in March, right. It's sometimes to me when I look back at that, it's it's like a lesson

and a reminder. I mean, I've lived in DC on and off for twenty years, so like, I think DC's a great place, but it's easy to get kind of stuck in this echo chamber fear right, which is not how people actually talk, think about things, consume information, and he has had a connection with the world outside of DC, which I think has helped him politically and helped him

kind of overcome people's underestimation of his political capacity. You're like such a beloved press secretary, and you know, you definitely had Fox news man who shall not be named like yelling at you, but you really didn't have the same kind of I mean, I think that people are I don't know if they're harder on her exactly, but it definitely feels like your predecessor has been really attacked in a way. It's a really really hard job, and only the people who have stood there and done it

know it. That's like, and I think it's a small collection of people, regardless of your party, maybe with some exceptions from the Trump era, who know that. Right. It's even harder when you're in a place where there's very little you can say that is less to do with the person than the moment in times sometimes, you know, I mean, and I think the couple of months where it was like every day it was about documents and

what was known or wasn't known. That's hard for anybody in that job to be doing that and to be in a position where there's not a lot you can say or add or share. It's also true that being the press secretary during a presidential campaign or a potential one is also hard because there is something called the Hatch Act, of which I violated, and I got a sternly written letter. Wait when did you violate the Hatch Act? At some point when I was the Press secretary? I

can't even remember what I said. It was something so innocuous. It was like about the president supporting someone or campaigning for someone. I don't remember what it was. I mean, let's remember Trump literally did the convention on the South Lawn, So like, right, I was going to say, it's all relative. But my point is that there is a limitation to what you can say and how much you can talk about politics, and so that limits even more what information

you can provide. So I think it's that's really tough. I worked with Kream closely. She's like a person who wants She's like a fantastic human being, and she's a person. Yeah she's been on this podcast. She's wonderful. She's wonderful, she's a fantastic to human being. She cares deeply, she believes in like defending democracy and in public service and in what the president is trying to do. And I was fortunate to work with her for a year and

a half. So but I would just say that it's hard, Molly, because sometimes it doesn't mean you're always deligned in there, right, Reporters are doing their job when they're asking for more information, even when they get heated about it, and when they're asking tough questions about it. When you don't have information you can provide for whatever reason, that makes your job nearly impossible. And so she knows that. And I think she's also like a super tough cookie and people should

know that about her too. I mean you have to be to do that job right, yes, because I mean even if they like you, they still don't like you ultimately. Right, there's still at tension there, yeah, of course, and there's meant to be. I mean, you know, the truth is the briefing room as a place where reporters are pushing and asking a question ten times and pushing for more

information and asking for press conferences with the president. That is what they're supposed to do, right, And when you're the press secretary, you're supposed to provide as much information as you can humanly provide about whatever the issue is, to help shed light on what's happening in the mind of the president in the administration and their work on

behalf of the American public. There's a shared desire I think by most reporters and by most press secretaries to be a part of what is essential in art and a democracy, which is like a fully functioning journalism sector. Right. But it doesn't mean that your approaches are always aligned, right, Because it's if you're the White House Press secretary and you said, every time somebody asked for an interview, yes, that's like that's a disservice right to the president and

the government. But every reporter should be asking for that every day. So in that sense, even not through mal intent, it can be conflicting. Tell us what's happening on the show this week. One of the insane reactions from many Republicans to the shooting in Nashville was to attack the trans community. Trans terrorism was actually trending the other day,

which is horrible and crazy. And I spent the afternoon the other day with dani Ka Rome, who is the first transgender person elected in Virginia, and we talked about that we talked about her growing up. We also talked about, you know, what she wanted to do. She's running for state senate. She's a delegate currently, and I think there's so many misconceptions about so many people, but certainly people

in the trans community feel this every day. While she is a very vocal advocate for trans rights and equality, as she should be, and many people know here because of that, she also is somebody who wants to fix roads and make sure kids have food in schools and things, and I think sometimes people miss that. So I spend time with her. We're also going to be talking a lot about guns and gun violence and the absurdity of that debate. We're working on cooking up a couple of

interesting guests. So that's where we are noon on Sunday. Fantastic, Thank you so much, Thank you, Molly. Great talking with you. John Heileman is the host of Showtimes the Circus. Welcome to Fast Politics, John Heileman, I'm back, I'm back, and the politics over here is it used to be fast? You should be called faster politics. I think you know it keeps getting faster, faster, faster. Well, if only it would be faster. We have never been a country where

I mean Nixon didn't go to jail. Yes, we've never been a country where finished the thoughts, where there's been a lot of accountability for our electeds. There are many people who would say, Molly, that one of the strengths of the American system is that we did not historically

criminalize political stuff. That we kept political accountability in the political realm, and we kept legal accountability in the legal realm, and we tried not to We hope that rarely the twin would meet, right, We didn't want criminal presidents who are constantly you didn't want people indicting presidents left right in center or trying to jail sitting presidents of the

United States. That kind of a horrible country, Mike, or you are constantly had the opposing party of either side constantly trying to throw the president in jail on what would almost certainly be in many cases, I'm not talking about Trump, but in many games would be spurious reasons. So I think it's the fact that the country is not historically thrown a lot of presidents in jail or ex presidents jail. That's a good thing, Like we should be happy about that, right, But but I think it is.

It does speak to the way our system was design was not to rely on the courts to seek accountability from presidents and ex presidents. And so now we're in a situation that is unprecedented for all the reasons that you and I and everybody knows. Donald Trump is not like any other president who's ever been president United States, even compared to you know, Nixon did a lot of bad shit, but ultimately Nixon looked up and said, yeah, Okay,

they got me. I'm gonna quit now and go hide out in San Clementi and write books and try to rehabilitate my reputation. Trump is, you know, the absolute opposite of that. And it's funny. I found myself arguing somebody the other day that Trump is like, in some ways, if he could actually read, and I'm not I'm not convinced that he is literate, but if he could read, and then if he could read at a high level, I would say, like, Trump behaves like he's a follower

of like Fuko. You know, he's like people are like well with Norm's standards, shame, and he looks at these and goes, you know, those are just words, right, They're just words like you all have attached to meaning to and their historically contingent. They mean nothing to me. You've all decided that these things mean something, but you know that intrinsically they mean nothing thing. And if you just decide they don't mean anything, you can get away with

a lot of shit. We've never had a present like that before. Yeah, No, fundamentally, I mean that is I think the real difference, and I think it's hard for people to sort of make peace with the fact that he will never say this is too much. The man last week engaged in an open, totally racist, totally asemitic campaign of intimidation, desabilization against an elected DA here in New York, Alvin Bragg, and really against the grand Jury itself. I mean, it's true, it's clear what Trump was doing

last week. It was like what he's done all all throughout his political career, which is lightest stick of dynamite, roll it into whatever venue he's going to play, and watch the rubble blow up in the air and see where it falls, and then kind of be like, I'm more comfortable in that environment amid the rubble, and you know, the smoldering fires in the burning building than I am in the kind of realms that every other politician is more comfortable in, which is like not amid blown up

buildings and and and fires. Right, But it's an amazing thing, And on some level you go, well, it's not surprising at all. Trump. That's a Trump's done all along racist, sure, any Semitic, Sure, no respect for established authority, law, precedent. Sure, he's done all those things. But even so, and maybe I'm just a baby or whatever, but like I still found it shocking, you know, to see you know, Oh, sure I'll retweet or read whatever the fucking they called

those They refused to call them truths. I refused to call them truths, whatever that thing on Pruce Socialist. I'll retruth some post that has me holding a baseball bat at Alden Bragg's head. Sure I'll do that. And then, of course, you know, I'll go and do all of it, culminating with this fucking crazy rally in Waco, where I went, Oh,

did you go to Waco? So yes I did, and watched him stand there, you know, amid people who are like comparing him favorably to David Koresh, as If Koresh you know, child rapist and a cult leader and a violent criminal who like set fire to a compound where he killed all of his followers. That guy's like, yeah, dam of course that guy was great. And the government was really tear in Waco man jack booted thugs who took that guy down, and your Trump's just like that.

There was a siege at Waco, and there was a siege at Marlago, and Trump's just like that. And then he walks out on stage and plays the J six choir, you know, just calls them to the content choir and stands there with his hand over his heart and basically is now in the process of essentially you're going to see that at a lot of Trump rallies in the Coortless next year. It's like Trump basically saying, not, hey,

January sixth wasn't as bad as people said. It wasn't really an insurrection and it was really this or that. He's like not saying it wasn't as bad as you as people say. He's saying, it was a great and glorious day. And the patriots have been imprisoned. They are political prisoners. And that's like now his like out front handover his heart, Molly hand over his heart. I mean, it's fucking crazy, is it that Trump has not read enough? Like did he read the first sentence about David Koresh

and then not read the rest? I mean do you think he was like, yeah, yeah, David Koresh. I mean, like, do you think he knows like slept with the underage girls? Let A called or now? I had no idea. I really can't. I mean I don't. I can't. Again, I'd not convinced Trump has read anything. There's a few things on TV now about Waco, with this being the thirty year anniversary, so maybe maybe he's watched I mean, did he watch all three hours of the new Netflix dot that?

You know? There's no there's no topless women in that documentary. So I didn't watched that. I don't think so. But I mean, look, Roger Stone dedicated to one of his books, to the Branch Davidians right. Roger Stone knows, you know, as Roger Stone ever talked to Donald Trump about what Waco means. Alex Jones was an unknown right wing radio host in Austin until Waco, and he used Waco to

become what we now know. Alex Jones is to stand band and know the history of Wacoste band and knows the history of Waco, like a lot of people around Trump know what the history of this is, and they know that it became, you know, after a first Ruby Ridge, then Waco and then Oklahoma City. It became kind of this potemic, you know, touchstone for the far extreme right, the militia movements and all those people. So does Trump

no know any of that history. I never want to impute knowledge to Trump, right, It's like, it's not I don't think he knows anything. It seems unfair. Yeah, but I think he knows that people who love him think Waco is is special in some way. And so again I don't want to excuse him. I'm just saying, like I would never want to say, oh, Trump, Trump has a great command of this history. I don't you know, that seems ridiculous, But the people around him do. There

are a lot of accidents. People make a lot of mistakes in politics, but there aren't coincidences. You know, you don't hold a rally in the middle of the anniversary of Waco in Waco while you're mounting an increasingly avid anti campaign of Camp have attacks on the legal system in which you are portraying yourself as a martyr. That doesn't happen by accident, Right, That's that's the one thing I could say. It's like, oh, yeah, hey, we picked Waco because it was very central to all the airports

in Texas. What a fucking what a load up ship that was. So that's all that's all I know. Yeah, I mean, I think it certainly does feel like he's priming the pump for anti government. I don't want to say violence, because but it certainly feels like that's what

he's doing. If it weren't for what happened on January sixth, you would kind of set one to say, well, the suggestion that Trump is encouraging a violent protests against the government, let's give him the benefit that if Trump wouldn't go that far, if it work for January sixth, you might you might be like, Okay, let's you know, just let's force ourselves to not think that he's doing the worst

possible thing you can imagine. But you know, and the context of what he did in the run ups January sixth, like it's now you have a reasonable expectation why he did it. Once, so why wouldn't you do it again? Yeah, I mean I think that's sort of amazing. So I want to ask you about this. There's a little bit of discourse in the like maybe it won't be De Santists, maybe it will be Glen Yunkin. I don't know how any of these people went against Trump when Trump owns

the base. I mean, it's it's a formidable challenge to be as popular as Trump is with as large chunk. And I have to say it over and over again for people who don't really understand I guess how politics works. It's like no one is saying that Donald Trump has a coalition that we look at his coalition and say that is a formidable general election coalition. Now it's not. But in our politics, it's a two part thing. You can't run in the general election until you win the nomination.

So the first thing that every politician, not just Trump but everybody, the first thing you're focused on is how do I get the nomination? Then you look and focus on what you know what you're going to do in the general election. Now, Trump has a lot of problems in a general election, but he also has a lot of strengths in the nomination process, and frankly, if you're worried about I mean a you know everybody who We've seen Trump's weaknesses not just played out. We saw him

in twenty sixteen to some extent though he won. We saw them in twenty eighteen, twenty twenty two. We know what he can't, what he doesn't have the capacity to do. But we also know that we have this weird system that's based on the electoral college and not based on the popular vote. We know that, you know, crazy shit happens all the time in America now, and we know that, like even if you said Trump isn't even a fifty fifty chants in a general election, he's going to get

forty six, forty seven percent of the vote. Naturally, he's gonna win a every red state that we know that's a hardcore red state. And so like, the guy stands up what you want to call it, a forty percent chance of being president, that's a pretty that's like more than I'm comfortable with, Like, yeah, it's you four and

ten times yeah. And so it doesn't give me comfort to say, you know, Trump is going to be a sper He is obviously the candidate that Biden would like to run against, not just because of some personal thing, but because you know of the weaknesses that have been on display electorally, but in the nomination fight, the thing that gets him into the position where he has somewhere between a forty and forty eight percent chance of being president.

He's very strong, and you look at you know there is that The appeal of De Santis is a head appeal. It's like it's these people at the Club for Growth and the Carl Row people who are sitting around going they understand it's the elite, and it's people who would like the Republican Party. Two, they understand the Trump's a loser and he's an optrosse and he hurts the party down ballot, and they look at they say, how do we get out of this. We're not gonna get out

of this with Chris Christie. We're not going to get out of this with Governor Hogan from Maryland. We need someone who is like Mitt Romney, but who has just enough MAGA credentials. And here's a guy who's fought these culture wars in Florida based loves these culture wars. They love to watch people punching trans kids in the face. And so they look at De Santis and he's like the Frankenstein. He's like, you know, he's a lab created thing.

It's like a mend it's a project. It's like, here's the guy who basically we like in his establishment Republican except he's he's done these things that have worked for him in Florida manifestly, I mean, very impressive reelection there. And they say, Okay, that's the guy who might be able to, you know, one on one against Trump, who might be able to take him down. And then you just look at like what it would actually look like. And you know, I said this this morning on Morning Joe.

It's like, has anybody seen the Rond de Santas debate against Charlie Christ, Yeah, he's terrible. Has anybody seen the Rond de Santas debate against against meth Head Andrew Gillham? Like he got taken apart by two. I mean Andrew Gilham was at at times a pretty talented performer, right Troley Chris has never been a talented performer. And and and in both of them, though Decans looked like a deer in the headlights, and both of those of these

major debates he's had to do. They shield him from the press on the ground in Florida because they know that he's brittle, yea, and they think that he could go off the rails if he was ever had to take a lot of tough questions from reporters. They're worried about these debates and Trump is going to you know, he's a human, he's a human threshing machine. He's you know, I look at that and go, man, if I'm sure,

if I'm if, I'm to sans a people. I think, as a practical matter, how's this actually going to work? Like in practice? All of Trump's support with the base And again, whatever you think about Trump, he has a very very well demonstrated history of ripping other Republicans into tiny little pieces into like confetti and blowing them and shooting them out of his confetti gun like a a halftime of an NBA game. Like, I don't I don't

see like how that's gonna work. I think Trump will call him tiny d and tower over him and that will be the end of it. Yes, I just think that I think that that, you know, it's an interesting thing in the Republican base right now, because you do here even you know, down in Florida, we were down there for the circus and we went down there and talk to you have rounded a lot of people in Florida.

Republicans in Florida who say, we love run to Santas, but we really would like him to stay here for another four years and let Donald Trump be reelected president because he had that taken away from him and he needs to finish the job. And so does round to Santas. He needs to stay here and finish the job. Santis in twenty eight sounds great to us. And that's another problem to Santas has even like there are a lot of people who are like, they don't want to see

to Santas and Trump fighting. They like, actually kind of they want they don't like it when Trump attacks to Santas and they don't like it went to Santas attacks Trump. They're kind of like they're, you know, the Republican bases like can we all please just I mean a funny way on on our team. They would rather see the two of them like working together, like let's just have this be orderly, you know, let's let's Trump, let's have

Trump for run in twenty twenty four. He'll win. This is their view right there, and then let's then let's have me give me to Santas pick up the baton after he's fixed Florida. I put quotes around air quotes after he's finished fixing Florida. And apparently, you know, shipping off all the truth. Anybody who's who's uh, who's any trans kid, anybody who you know an anybody who stands doesn't like, you know, exiled them. But but then that's

what they're looking forward to. And then they say, you know, uh, then just Santas can pr nomine in twenty twenty eight. We'll get behind him. I've seen in the course of my time covering politics a lot of heralded candidates who were like Pete Wilson people forget back in nineteen eighty six.

It was like people say, Governor California had like the sharp end of the spear on any immigration policies in America back then, Pete Wilson Governor California or a publican governor California, tough on immigrants, tough un weelfare, He's going to be formidable. The guy was like an awful presidential terrible, you know, and you've seen this a million times. These people who are big state governors, Rick Perry, big state governors who are like on paper, you're like Scott Walker,

Scott Walker. And then they got act there in the arena on the national stage, which is just different even when Trump wasn't around, and they just were terrible. Um so we'll see. I mean, but I'm not I'm not in the camp yet of like, Wow, Randos understand as as a juggernaut and he could really take down Trump. I mean, that's not where I'd be betting my mortgage money if I had to bet. Thank you, John so great. I really appreciate you. Molly, You're just the best. Molly

drunk fast Jesse Cannon. Now, when you're a pregnant woman, you can be a criminal if you cross state lines in Idaho. Yes, Idaho went from states rights to no rights pretty fucking fast. Idaho doesn't want you going to get abortion pills. They don't want you going out of state to get an abortion. I love that they're also apparently basing some of these laws off of slave laws about crossing up to the north. That's really nice. Fugitive slave laws is what we should be modeling our modern

legislation off of it. It's just disgusting and I'm disappointed but not surprised. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. June in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to your the best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.