Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds, and transgender people in Florida now face the state taking their drivers' licenses. We have a star studded show today. Egene Carroll and Robbie Kaplan join us to talk about their massive victory over former President Trump and what's next in their quest for justice. Brian Class talks to us about his new book Fluke, Chance, Chaos,
and why everything we do matters. But first we have former Senator and host of the Al Franken podcast, the one, the Only Al Franken. Welcome back to you Fast Politics. One of my favorite guests, Al Franken, were You're my favorite hosts except for like hosts who have like TV shows and no no, So I want to start by talking about this insane border legislation. I had breakfast with Chris Murphy on Friday morning at Steak and Eggs. Have you ever been there?
No? But it sounds like I know what their menu is.
And I had it Homelet oh, okay, cheese eggs. I'm getting to the headline here, and he said they had been working on this border package for like about three and a half months, and it's Langford, him and everyone's favorite independent. She's not even everyone's favorite independent, right because Bernie Sanders is everybody's favorite cinema with cinema, but she's not everybody's favorite Independent, and that they had something. But of course, you know what did that mean? So you
actually have worked with Langford? I mean, you've worked with all these people, but you've certainly worked with Langford.
And Chris, Yeah.
And yeah, So we were just talking about I would be curious, let's talk about this in Saturday.
Well, length Efford is very very conservative and on the border, and basically what they were trying to do is come up with something that both sides could live with. And we do have a problem at the border. I don't know what's in the package. No one actually knows what it is, but clearly it's going to be something much stricter in terms of letting people in and kicking people out. And they had a deal that included funding the war
in Ukraine and Israel. So they had it worked out and they had worked on it for how many months? I don't know, would Chris tell you like four months or five months or something like that. They've been working on us, I'm sure constantly, maybe much longer. And they had a package and that they were going to go with, and then Trump said I don't want it because I want to have it not solved. I don't want Biden to take credit.
I want something to run on, right, Yeah.
And they went, oh, okay, McConnell wall, all right, well, okay, that's what you want. We want more judges, you know, and and we want fascist running the government so right.
Because of the tax cut. Let me ask you a question about Mitch McConnell here, because you actually know him too. When Mitch McConnell said Trump wants us to kill this DL, was Mitch McConnell actually trying to throw Trump under the bus or was Mitch mcconnald just speaking truth to power.
I think what he was doing is well for this, either he'll get phone under the bus or it'll help him. I don't know, but I'm doing we're all supposed to do right now from our own politics. And that's why I think what he did. I think he was being sincere though actually that he was saying like, okay, now we got now we gotta do what the boss says, and get him elected. That's what they want, and that's that way they get judges, and that way they get they get what they want.
It's such an insane thing to think about for a minute here, because here's Mitch McConnell. This is probably, I mean, I don't know, maybe he runs again. Never underestimate the ability of senators to refuse to leave. But it does seem like, you know, here you are into your older years and you realize that your legacy is going to be just like Trump Patsy.
Yeah, well, you know, everybody is Trump's Patsy basically on the Republican Party right now. And that's the politics. They want a Republican president. He's the he's the nominee, that's clear, and he demands that kind of loyalty and fealty and he gets it. They've surrendered.
So it seems like now even though Republicans don't control the Senate and they only control the House by I think it's two right now, right right? If Swazi when then there'll be one. You would just need one Republican.
Just one COVID.
That wasn't what I was thinking, but you could just one to say you know this party is really pathetic. I'm going to switch, and you have a speaker who Keem Jeffers.
I hadn't thought of that. I don't know any Republican House member who would do that. But I don't know. I don't know hardly any of them anyway.
Right, I mean, you only need one, and there are a lot of them who are on their way out right. I mean, I'm just saying, like Patrick McHenry, you know somebody. I mean, obviously Patrick McHenry is not going to do it because he comes from Freedom Caucus and is ultimately probably as bad as the rest of them.
Yeah, you know the House lot. But I'd name someone who would do this, and then what would happen to them?
They'd have to hire mid Romney levels of private security, so they'd have to be quite rich. I mean, yeah, it just seems is unlikely that there really isn't anyone who could do that, not even could. I mean any of them could, but none of them would. The thing I'm so struck by. I want you to talk about this for a minute, because this is something I feel like we don't talk about but is actually really important.
Like the economy is quite good and Biden made this big announcement to pause natural gas export because we are now the largest exporter of natural gas in the entire world, and a.
Lot of that kind of happened because of the war in Ukraine and Europe not taking gas from Russia.
Yeah, so here we are a gas giant pausing it because Biden actually cares about the environment and wants to look at the impact of some of what this is doing to indigenous people. What this is, you know, a sort of study, but it's clearly easy to ramp up. It means that the OPEC does not have the monopoly it once did. It means a lot of really good things. So business leaders are not embracing Biden even though the
economy is so good. This is like this weird dichotomy where Democrats don't get credit for good economies and Republicans do, and then polling shows that people trust Republicans better on the economy. Why does this happen, Well.
That's good propaganda by Republicans. Actually, Biden's economy and his job creation numbers are higher than Trump's, and we have to advertise that that's something we have to be talking about. And people are beginning to feel it. I mean, there has been that lag since that, you know, since nine percent inflation, and that's scared of the Jesus out of people. They had not seen that since you know, it's really the seventies, and there's a lag from that that people
are beginning to see the economy is picking up. The stock markets as the highest, you know, and that affects people's pensions obviously, and the four oh one ks, et cetera. I think that there's enough time between on the election for people to see that Biden has been a much better steward of the economy than Trump has, just in terms of job creation.
It's like they all just want a tax cut.
I don't think all wealthy people want a tax cut.
No, but I mean all these Republicans just want a tax cut.
Right, Yeah, Americans don't Trump voters, don't Yes, Trump voters. Should people at the top be paying more? They'll say yes. They don't like the elites. They you know, they feel like the elites are self serving, and that's what the Republicans are. They're self serving for people at the top.
And so this is one of the basic fights that we have, and it's one that we really need to be pressing, and that Biden needs to be pressing, which is, hey, everybody, we're for taxing people at the top at a higher level. That's what we do. That's what harright, that's our thing. All polling shows that Americans want that, including Trump vote.
Yeah, no, I mean, this is the thing. It's economic populism. Somehow the party that is the economic populist party cannot get credit for it.
Well, we have to be loud about it. And this is where Biden needs to get out and do rallies. And Biden needs to go out and show that he can do rallies, and he needs to be hitting these points over and over again.
Yeah, we're in this news crisis, right, We're in this mainstream media crisis where like there's such a drop off and local news. A lot of these really good papers are gone or going massive layoffs this year, like you know, if you look at the numbers or humongous.
And where people get their local news now is from talk radio, and talk radio is all this right wing bladder and.
Also from social media right, which is like Jesse can tell us what's happening on TikTok, But the algorithm did have Again, I know this is not a huge group, but they did have Osama bin Lawden's was it Osama bin Laden? Yes, his letter to America trending? Yes, poor Jesse has to.
Unmute Osama bin Laden's letter to America.
Yes, Jesse, tell Al Frank in this story, please unmute. He's im poor Jesse.
Osama bin Laden's letter to America trended on TikTok when the Israel October seventh started because it was an indictment of American imperialism, and the kids found it relevant for some reason.
Oh the kids.
Yeah, I'm really glad to be the voice of this. This is really what the paycheck pays me for.
And there's some sense in which it's very possible that the algorithm may have helped.
This out right, the algorithm, once something starts to trend THEND, then it just goes nuts. Is that it?
Yeah, TikTok again. There is a sense in which the algorithm supports more of a negative bent in America versus in China, where it encourages children to read and be good.
I see so, and that's what was in Osama bin Laden's letter.
No, no, no, definitely not.
I didn't I was just confused there for a segment.
The death to America for refrain was pretty strong, as I recall from the early days of the two thousands.
Yeah, not great.
So Issama bin Laden wrote two letters, one for Chinese TikTok, which is a wholesome Listen to your parents, do your homework, try to get into an American university. That's because it was written several years ago. He doesn't say that anymore. He wouldn't.
He was known for his misscleoes to see the future.
Try to go to an American university, but don't fly there, go by boat.
Anyway. The point is, yes, I'm sorry, please help me.
That was dark.
I'm sorry it was really dark, but it was sort of hilarious. But again, here we are on the precipice of another Trump Biden showdown, and I think there's a lot of anxiety, right, I mean, why do the stakes have to continually be so high?
Well, the stakes are incredibly high right now. Did you notice we have the possibility of Donald Trump being elected and the second term is going to be very different than the first, meaning it's going to be the first on steroids. I mean it's going to be if one be vindicated and two there'll be just no holes barred.
And I I assume that if he wins, they'll be or there may very well be a Republican Senate and may very well be a Republican House, although I don't see them holding the House because I think Americans have been watching this house enough.
To see us so bad.
To see how I mean, this is a spectacularly bad house. I actually see possibility of both houses whipping Trump. Yeah, this is an existential threat to our democracy, and if he becomes president or this country, the nature of this democracy changes, meaning it may not be one. And at the end of four years. Yeah, we got nine months of this of being scared.
You know, it's funny because it's like, it's not funny, but it's the like, do you want to have elections election? I was listening to NPR and they were talking about how Trump is only eligible to serve four more years, and I'm thinking myself, like, oh, okay, well, I'm sure then he'll stick by that.
I see him doing all kinds of things. I worry about him switching the parliamentarian in the Senate and try to do everything with fifty votes. If he has fifty if you look at the history of autocracies, there's all kinds of things he can do, you know, and at a certain point the autocrat says, nope, we're changing this, and he's able to. This is as frightening as is. Last night I was on CNN. I read just a couple things, and I want to get these guys to
start speaking out. This is James Mattis, who was of course Sectuary of Defense, talking about Trump. He is more dangerous than anyone could ever imagine. Now he said this, and these guys tend to say these things once or write them once. They got to start talking like every day. This is John Kelly, who was his chief staff. Right. The depths, the depths of his dishonesty is just a to me. He is the most flawed person I have
ever met in my life. Now it's sort of up to these guys, I think, not to say this once, but to be saying it every day. And they're supposed to be patriots, they were military, they love this country. This guy is so dangerous and we need everybody, not just hopefully Taylor Swift, because she didn't serve with him. She didn't you know, she didn't see it. Up close and these guys did. I mean, there's on and on it goes with these people and they say these things
once and get quoted in some story. But they have to they have to come out. So this is my new thing. I'm just pounding this. You guys come out and start talking and start talking every day.
Yeah, exactly, Al Franken, thank you so much for joining us.
You bet, Molly. Always a pleasure, always fun, except now.
Egen Carroll is a columnist and author. ROBERTA. Kaplan is a lawyer who represented Egen Carroll in our case against Donald Trump, as well as arguing United States v. Windsor Welcome back to Fast Politics. Robbie Caplan and Egen Carroll, you.
Don't much better you need than you, Egene.
I want to talk to you about this case because I remember when I introduced George to Egen, he said, oh, I know the lawyer. I know the lawyer. I know the woman who can do this case. How did you know George, Robbie.
You know, I don't think I really knew him. I mean, he was a lot tough for many years while I was at Paul Weiss. I certainly knew who he was because lawyers at firms like that kind of generally know each other. I don't think we ever had a case together, or I cannot call any circumstances in which we interacted.
But when Trump was elected and George, who I thought was remarkably not only prescient but courageous and disavowing him right away as a conservative Republican, we somehow became acquainted. And I don't honestly when he made that call, and not even should we'd ever met yet.
It's so interesting because it's like the thing you were so famous for was same sex marriage, right, arguing that from in front of the Supreme Court. It's a different kind of moral courage, but it's similar in a certain way, right.
I don't know how to answer that. I think George is more courageous doing what he did because I was very My decision on Windsor was very popular among the people. I found that with George, his decision was exceedingly unpopular in the group of people he found that with so very My wife supported me. His wife was.
Much Yeah, she's.
Not a fan of mine either. So let's talk about how this case when, and sort of a little bit about as you were getting going in it. How was the process? This is all because of this Adult Survivors Act too. Right.
The case that was tried first, that was tried less Spring, was all because of the Adult Survivors Act, which Egene herself tried helped bring about.
And that is the second case. Right.
Yeah, with the second case that was filed, it just moved a lot faster because it didn't have any of these complicated issues about federal power and whether he was president, etc.
Right. Can you talk a little bit about the Adult Survivors Act and also Egene's involvement in that.
Sure. So the Adult Survivors Act was a law that grew out of the realization by many many people that women who had been sexually assaulted, for example, at the time that Egene was assaulted, and even for years and years before that, quite rationally, in my view, at that point in time, would have and could have it probably should have made the decision not to report it. We weren't a society that was particularly open.
To those issues.
The DA's offices weren't particularly open to those issues, and so a lot of women again rationally, decided to keep it quiet. So the Adult Survivors that said, look, if that had happened to you many years ago, and you could no longer be a claim because of what's called the statue limitations, which means your case is barred by the time limits. You can have a free one year look back, essentially, in which during the course of that year you can bring those claims and statute of limitations
are not a defense. That's basically what it did. That that period is now over. It began two Thanksgivings ago, when it ended last Thanksgiving. Egen, you should talk about your role of getting a tasked.
Yes, please do, Molly.
As you know, I'm not good at politics. I don't about how to even go about it. Robbie's wife, Rachel A Line was my sort of my coach the goose. I turned the board myself to write to every single member of the House of Representatives in Albany. I didn't know how to be assembly the Assembly, all the Assembly members. Molly, how do you write a letter to all the Assembly members in Albany? And she really coached me through. So
that was the first thing we did. Second thing we did is I went to Albany with Rachel Tuckman, one of our great lawyers here, and Rachel at the time she didn't want anybody. Now it was six weeks pregnant, and that woman ran up. You've been to Albany and Molly right the down staircase or wherever that thing is going. There were so many stairs in the New York camp up. And that woman is six weeks who was told she should not be traveling, walking, driving. She went the stairs,
We got into the elevator. We went from office to office, knocking on doors, introducing ourselves. And here's the thing on Nobody wanted to talk to us. Now body, nobody wants to hear about sexual assault. They just they feel bad about it. They don't know how to handle it. They don't want two women knocked around their doors show the saw.
You know, they don't except Linda Rosenthal. She said, come girls, and we sit down, and she helped us plot out and Senator Brad hole in money those two really and plus the letters, I think ana a little bit and lo, lo and behold the thing passed. It passed amazing. It made all the difference. And look what happened.
Remember at the end, everybody, remember last month when everybody started coming forward, and remember on puff Daddy.
So this adult Survivors Act. There's a certain window and which you can come forward, and I think when does it end? I think it ended last month, right.
There might have some extensions for whatever reason, but it's oldver it ended at a little bit. I think the woman and who Sue Litle purported to sue Sean Colms was doing so order in New York City law, which was about to expire. I think we built survivors that expired around Thanksgiving, Okay, November twenty second, twenty twenty three.
I don't know. We spend so much time on this podcast talking about conservatives going into the legal system to take away our rights, especially after Row. It's really interesting the idea that you could conceivably change these rights so that survivors would have more rights.
Well, yeah, well that's what and that's is that how what happened? More rights?
Who are got more rights?
I mean part of the right side in terms of kind of what's happening legally at SCOTUS right now. Theoretically, at least, the states should have a lot more power, and so states like New York and California and others that want to pass progressive legislation should have more power to do so as a Supreme court kind of gets you rid of all these federal protections.
It's a halcyon thought. Unlikely, right, I mean, And they're ultimately their goal is just to dismantle the federal governments. Ye, do whatever they want. I'm curious. So now, so just tell me about the sort of process of waiting. I mean, Egene, I'm sure that you were flooded with vitrial. I always find like that it actually kind of gets to me, even though I say it doesn't get to me, it sort of gets to me.
Oh well, it's intense today, yet very intense today after we did Madou last night, and we did yesterday, and you know, the morning shows, and they just are because we really really trounced Donald Trump, and it's making people a little insane. His supporters, they really can't believe that an elderly woman and a hot shot lawyer and a team of young just indestructible attorneys almost well of us
who are women, just wrongstier. So it's making people a little nervous, and so they strike out at Robbie and me.
So I think a lot about this, Like you're my mom's age, you're a little younger than my mom, and you are Donald Trump's age right now.
I'm eighty eighty, your mom's.
Eight eighty three. I had told you that I was walking down the street. Erika John was the first celebrity I saw, and I had just come in from Montana. I'm walking down the avenue and there comes this vision blond hair, yards of it lying out around her head. And this was a woman I work you reading in my little Montana cabine. Fear of flying made such an impression on all this, and she's coming towards me. I'm walking my dog.
I just I can't believe it. I was in nningar Erica John herself walking down the street, and she was so I did. I was not prepared for her beauty, much of which you create, and you've been inherited with your massive amounts it.
Well, I don't know what color your here today, Molly spread and blonde.
So but let me ask you. Now, you're in this moment where Trump and his followers and his are you know, he's not going to pay a penny of it. We're going to appeal. Da da da da da. Talk me through next steps. So here's where we are right now. Did vertice has come in. Trump has an opportunity, which I'm sure people take, to file what are called post traum motions, basically arguments to the judge that the jury verdict should be set aside.
Those arguments have about a zero percent chance of success. Once Judge Kaplan denies those motions, then he will issue what's called the judgment, and then Trump has I think it's thirty days to either seek an appellate bond or to deposit about eighty nine or ninety million dollars with the court. Last time, when the verdict was only five million dollars, he actually deposited five point five million dollars
in the court. This time, he's either got to get a bond or he has to deposit ninety million dollars. If he doesn't, that means that we can start ed forcing right away.
So what does that mean?
That means we could say he'd give us pay us the money, and if he can't pay it all, we're allowed to get information about his bank accounts, about his checking accounts, about how much he's earning, his tax statements, et cetera.
And that will ultimately destroy the myth of Donald Trump.
I don't know that for a fact, but I wouldn't be shocked. You mean the myth of him is being wealthy.
Yeah, well, I mean you'll be able to see everything he's hidden for so long.
So when does that mean our case closes? Robin? Where's our case? Club? Our chief closes? Finally closes when the appellate court is done with it, the Second Circuit and if he seeks reviews to the Supreme Court, which I think is extremely doubtful here when they probably or not taking the case. Okay, so he remained open, so it'll switch courts, so it'll go from the district court to the Second Circuit.
But well, man, he defans me again. Yes, is our case still open?
No, we would have to follow if we want to bring the case, we'd have to follow yet another case. Carol three. I see.
But I'm curious. Now you had this experience of being in these depositions with him. Can we talk a little bit about what that was like? What was that like?
It was not as crazy, believe it or not as the trial, which was one of the crazy experienced, but it was pretty crazy.
Can you tell the story of what he said to you?
I did shoo depositions with him. The first one was in another case that's about a fraud case, really, and at the end of that deposition he was not happy with me. And at the end of that deposition they said something like off the record, off the record to make sure that everything was turned off, and he said to me, see you next Tuesday. I, fortunately for me, had no idea what that meant. So I, what are
you talking about. I'm coming back on Wednesday. Literally, But I said it sounds like I was being witty, but it was just ignorant. And then we got in the car and my associates, my colleagues told me what he meant, and I was like, thank god I didn't know, because
I would have gotten very upset. And then later that next Wednesday, we were there for the eging Arreld deposition, and that's where he made these very very significant errors, including, you know, talking about the excess Hollywood tape and saying how fortunately or unfortunately men had been able to get away with that from millions of years, and looking at a photo of Ejen her then husband, Donald Trump, and his then wife in point to Gene and saying, that's Marlon Maple's.
That was incredible. I remember talking to you after that, to seeing you socially somewhere, it's just so like it just negates all the lies he was saying about are Yeah.
I mean I was because when he listened to the video, I'm kind of like soft at my wisaritory and I said, did you just say that was Marlon Bapoles And I say something like that, and.
I'm so shocked. Unbullieable but never Molly.
And he says to grab and he said, no offense, but I'm had a tragure. Gee, you either we're not right take eye typing either. And of course he air is the thing on a tirade against Rodney. You know, she's a Democratic wob of grabit Center and Center. That's how he ended that.
Oh, Robbie Johnam, I hadn't for lunch or that was the first deposition. He looks to me, he said, well I wanted to I said, okay, sir, I'm going to cover this one more topic and then we'll break for lunch. And he said, why do we have to break for lunch?
I just want to go straight through And I said, look, I would, but there's a court reporter here, there's a videographer there, title to lunch breaks, that we're gonna have to take a break, And then you could kind of see his brain clicking, and he said, well, you're here in mar A Lango. What do you think you're going
to eat for lunch? And I said, well, I actually raised this with your attorneys yesterday, including Onlina Hob I think, and I said, and they graciously offered to provide us with lunch, at which point he took a huge pile of papers them across the team.
It really does seem unfit, right.
Yeah, and all of that Molly is nothing, literally nothing compared to the way he acted in that corporo.
Yeah. First, I want you to talk about the pointing, because I think that's really interesting. And then I want you to talk about how much candidate Trump really hurt defendant Trump.
Oh yeah, the answer is a lot. So in terms of the pointing, I didn't even see it because when I'm in court, I'm very formal. I don't turn back and I was facing forward. But I realized afterwards. I think a reporter told me that during her rebuttal, Sean Crowley, who's quite tall and was wearing heels, so she was super tall every time she mentioned Donald Trump stood and
kind of pointed at it. He would have been to her last and apparently he was just like glaring at her, and she's pointing at him, and it was quite quite something, very very courageous of her, dramatic.
I would love you to just talk about what happened in the courthouse that you felt like really hurt him.
There's a kind of a way, I think, to reduce, to concentrate it all down and think about it this way in this case, which was only about damages and in which we really focused on all his repeated defamations of Egene, even those after the verge in the last case, continuing during this trial, like he would leave the courthouse and he would go and to fade Egene again, if
that's the subject of the case. And you're basically saying to the jury, here's a man who's a bully, who cannot follow the rules, who thinks they don't apply to him. Acting in the courtroom like a bully who can't follow the rules is arguably not a great strategy. I think the anti strategy, that's not a great idea. And so we were joking the other day, I'm not even sure Sean and I needed to close. I think we just like sat down because they saw it all for themselves.
Oh no, and you're closing, moll. And you read this granscript right.
Yet no would talk to us about the closing arguments.
Oh, it was brilliantly built, it was movie, it was powerful. Robbie had the jury in the palm of her hand. This story is very odd, Molly. They were very intensely paying attention, but they didn't think it was correct to look at the attorneys. They were very careful, not together. They didn't even look at it. During the clothing argument, they looked at Ross's. Sure they were torturing us because they literally would not work our way. They would not let her.
But during their clothing you were aware of Robbie.
Then every once in a while they would look at you because you could not look away because she was describing what the man had done. And she told her riveting story, and of course she was and only just begun. She so incited him that when you could hear a pin drop in the courtroom for the closing was so amazing, when everybody was riveted to her, He stands up and I don't think he walks out.
He stalked up.
He's stalked up, and Robbie is, of course, as she's told you, she was outawhere. Judge Chaplin had to say for the record, he's defendant has left the courtroom, I think, or he says like that, lots the car, and Robbie of course doesn't miss a beat. She goes right on with the next say, she didn't miss her the flow, She just went on and it was well drawn him from the road. He did come back for Hoba.
For Hobba, he.
Left because he was obviously couldn't control himself. Maybe.
I mean, it seems like only about eight minutes into my clothing, which was an hour, so you know, at the very beginning.
Wow. And then he came back later.
He came back when I was done to watch Alena Hobba clothes. And then maybe because they convinced him he couldn't do it again, he had to stay for Sean Crowley's rebuttal Yeah.
Oh wow.
Can you just talk to us about his legal representation because he used to have Joe Tacopina right right the first trial, Yeah, and then he switched. Was Alena Habba. The person who should be taking a trial.
Yes I'm not. It's not for me to say, but I don't think she's had a lot of trial experience. And Judge Kaplan is a very strict he said it on the record, a very formal judge who expects lawyers not only to behave but to do things in the proper way. And if you don't know how to do things in the proper way, he loses patience, which he lost many, many, many times. And she would really talk
to him. I mean, the one thing that was the most stressful part of it all and why it was so much crazier than the depositions, is between Trump kind of shrugging and walking out and making gestures and kind of talking under his breath and Haba directly challenging the judge in the most obstinate, in disrespectful way. The very first day, she said to him, I really don't appreciate how you're speaking to me, but I can't. I have to tell you, Molly, I can't imagine saying that to
a judge. Yeah, I don't know what drug I would have to be on to say that to a judge. So it was always toense because you kind of never knew when those things were going to happen. Judge Kevin did an amazing job of keeping his equanimity, but it was a struggle.
Yeah.
Yeah, and the jury they were protected their anonymous jurors. This is a pretty unusual thing to do, right, Yeah.
So it's not uncommon in criminal cases, like in terrorism cases, it happens all the time, but in civil cases it's very rare. They did it in My Nazi, My Charlott's Fall Nazi case for similar reason.
Yeah.
I think it was this. Among the many smart decisions that the judge made, this might have been the smartest because the jury felt completely safe and completely protected. And at the end he said to them, you know, I can't tell you not to speak to the lawyers or not to expose yourselves, but if I were you, I would tell you not to My advice you would be not to do That's not arning. Yeah.
Wow, it feels so chilling. Robbie, Kaplan, Eji and Carol, thank you guys so much. Really appreciate you both.
Thank you, Thank you.
Molly. Brian Klass is the author of Fluke, Chance, Chaos and Why Everything We Do Matters. Welcome back to Fast Politics Behind Class.
Thanks for having on the show again.
Your book is called Fluke, Chance, Chaos and why everything we do matters. So explain to us a little bit about why you got here to write this book.
Yeah, So there's sort of two stories. I mean, one is I think that the world works this way and it's swayed by these small shocks that have big consequences
and we just pretend otherwise. So the opening story of the book is about a vacation that a couple took to Kyoto, Japan in nineteen twenty six, and the husband of the couple nineteen years later ends up as the Secretary of War for the United States, and in nineteen forty five he's the chief civilian in charge of word to drop the atomic bomb, and the target committee basically says they want to drop it on Kyoto, and they send it to Truman and so on, and Stimpson, because
he is the husband of this couple that went there in nineteen twenty six, because he has a soft spot for the city, he twice meets with Truman and gets it taken off the list. And so the first atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima purely because an American government official went on holiday nineteen years earlier to Kyoto and decided he didn't want the city destroyed. So, you know, I think as a political scientist, there's as bad aspect, which is like the world does shift this way on a
personal level. The sort of origin story of the book is that there's a story from my family history where a woman in nineteen oh five in rural Wisconsin had a mental breakdown and tragically decided to kill her four children and then kill herself. And her husband came home and found the whole family dead. And this is my great grandfather and his first wife. He remarried to my great grandmother. And the only reason I exist is because
of this mass murder. So I feel like a cosmic accident, a bit of a fluke, as it were.
But the Jesus, this is pretty rough.
No.
But the really strange thing about this is like, you know, Molly, like we wouldn't be talking if these kids didn't get killed, right, And I think like that's the thing that we ignore, Like there's all these ripple effects in politics, in society and in our own lives, which is why I talk
about chaos theory in the book a lot. But it's like, you know, when we tell the stories of politics when we go on MSNBC, as both of us do, to explain politics, like it's always big reasons for big events, right, And I think there's a lot of ripple effects that are sort of lurking there that explain the world better
often than the sort of obvious variables. Because you wouldn't imagine that the vacation history of a government official would cause the atomic bomb to land on one city rather than another.
Yeah, I mean for sure, true, and I think important. So we look at right now, I mean I guess yeah, you could say like the World War one, right, was started by a fluke, right archduke, world War two? Right? I mean there are there are all these different things that are started. You know, we don't know what things
will lead to. It's interesting. So now when we look at Trump and trump Ism, do we see that there's like it doesn't feel like a fluke led us to trump Ism as much as just like a continual hostility of a group of people who liked Trump's racism and economic populism.
I think there are flukes that we can see very clearly with Trump, though, I mean one of them. For example, is there speculation that he decided to run for president in twenty eleven when the White House correspondence dinner happened.
I knew you were going to say that when Obama was making those jokes.
Right, yeah, and Obama humiliated him. You know what this is true or not, I don't know, but that's one possibility. So maybe he doesn't run. Then you get to the twenty sixteen election. Right, You've got like, you know, seventy eighty thousand votes that decide the race in three states. And part of the reason why the FBI investigation is
reopened is because of Anthony Wiener. If this doesn't happen, maybe Komi doesn't make his statement, maybe Clinton narrowly wins, and then we have a totally different narrative, right because like Brexit then becomes the outlier of populism and it's like the high water mark of it, and we say, oh, well, but then Clinton wins is like the establishment figures maybe populism is dead. I mean, there's all these things where a lot of things pivot on very small, narrow outcomes,
and you know, there's some really strange stuff too. I talk about this in the book briefly, and it's a little bit in the weeds. But if you look at the twenty twenty election results, there's this little swoop across Georgia, this blue swoop in the counties where Biden basically racks up enough votes to win. And also the Democrats end up winning in Georgia in the Senate and control the Senate.
That crescent shape that if you look up the county level election results, it is literally caused by an ancient inland sea at the time of the dinosaurs, because there was fhytoplankton that lived there and they died and became really rich soil. So when slavery was established, they put all the plantations on this swoop and then all of the enslaved people were brought there and then they were
freed and they stayed there. And this is where a lot of the black population in Georgia lives that votes Democrat. So you know, I mean, there's all these things where if you take the long sweep of history, yeah, you can see geological contingencies and so on, but there's also aspects about you know, I think what we do as pundits or analysts is we stitch history backwards. So like something happens like oh, this was inevitable. Trump was always
going to rise because of these undercurrents. But if he'd lost in twenty sixteen, there would have a really different America, I think, And so you know, there could have been this this backlash to Trump is in this sort of condemnation in the Republican Party saying, oh, well, he was never going to win anyway, and then maybe the party isn't authoritarian and overly racist, right, So you know, I think there's a lot of these moments in history where
it could have pivoted slightly differently. And that's, you know, not to mention the fact that Trump was sort of made into this kingpin, celebrity apprentice guy when actually he.
Was a business failure.
If somebody they picked somebody else, maybe he doesn't rise, you know. So I think basically what happens is when you try to make sense of politics, you are told to look for big causes for big effects that are really oppos and I think that when you look in detail at history, that very quickly falls apart. As we all know in our own lives, right, and we've seen
all these little happenstance moments. I think the really bewildering thing is the stuff that we don't ever see, right, like the stuff in our lives, like the sliding doors sort of moments where or you hit the snooze button and your life might unfold slightly differently. You can only observe the life you live. And I think that's true for politics as well.
Yeah, it's super interesting. And yeah for exit, yeah, I wonder about that too. And Trump, you know, he did manage to the electoral college itself feels very flugish because we've now seen this happen a bunch of times where a candidate has won the electoral college and lost the popular vote and gone on to be president, which is just completely strange. The fluke thing I always think about is like, this is so sick. But I think, what
if Mitt Romney had won. I didn't like Mitt Romney at the time, but now I think, like Mitt Romney had president, perhaps you know that the Republican Party wouldn't have lost its mind.
Yeah, so you know, I think I think that's definitely a fair counterfactual to consider. And he probably if he'd won, he would have been the nominee in twenty sixteen almost certainly, right, So then that would have knocked out Trump in twenty sixteen.
I think what's really striking if you look at the twenty first century, though, is that our politics and our lives have been just like walloped over and over and over by these shocks, right, Like you look at the twenty first centuries nine to eleven, the Iraq War, the financial crisis, the Arab Spring, which was started by literally
lighting himself on fire in central Tunisia. Then you have you know, Brexit Trump, the pandemic started by a mutated virus infecting one person in China, and then you have you know, Gaza and Ukraine and so on and sort of these constant upheavals. And I think the thing that you know, I argue in Fluke as well, is that we've engineered a system that's that's really prone to this, right, because we've set up systems where like the world operates
with no slack. Probably the best example this was a couple of years ago when a gust of wind hit a boat in the Suez Canal and twisted sideways, you know, wiped out fifty four billion dollars of economic output. And it's like, you know, from like one boat, you know, So I think I think this stuff like you know, Trump's presidency also pivots to a large degree on COVID
or January sixth. You know what, if they had taken it a bit more seriously and had sort of broken it up, or they didn't allow the protest movement to even get started or whatever, or if January sixth, there's a great contingency here where the guys with the zip ties they get really close. Let's imagine they actually get somebody who's in Congress or in the Senate and kill them. Does that mean that Trump can rebound the way he has in twenty twenty four, I mean maybe, but maybe
not right. So, I think this is all these things where these split second changes or small changes Anthony Wiener's celfo or a joke about you know Trump in twenty eleven. I think we just write that out as noise, and the wisdom, the received wisdom you get is like, you know, ignore the noise, focus on the signal. And I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think there's a lot of stuff in our politics that is swayed by noise.
Yeah, I'm in for sure. I think that last statement that there's a lot of stuff in our politics that's swayed by noise is for sure, Troe. So let's talk about that noise right now. There's a lot of anxiety. My personal anxiety is that I am missing stories, that I am missing part of the world because I am not getting the news that everybody else is, or I'm not getting enough of it. It's kind of nots but I have a lot of anxiety about the siloed nature of the world. Now, Am I right? Am I wrong?
I mean, talk to me about that.
One of the biggest problems that we've embedded into American politics is that we have totally different information pipelines depending on who we are, right, And like, I think this is where the United States has a totally broken system that is going to have generational consequences, not just trump Ism, but that will outlast Trump probably. And it's something you know, I can say, as you know, I live in the UK, I come back to the US every so often. I flip on you know, Fox News and Newsmax to see
what's going on. There's just nothing like that in the developed democracies and the rest of the world. And the sort of propaganda that does exist on the airwaves in the United States is something that I think has also embedded risk in this because you think about like QAnon, for example, and fifty percent of American Republicans now say that they believe at least one plank of QAnon. I mean, one of those people is going to do something really crazy, and some of them already have.
Right.
A guy tried to like blow up the Hoover dam at one point and thankfully didn't succeed based on QAnon belief. Not to mention the Pizzagate incidenta the guy tried to shoot up the pizza joint, Right, So there's I think there's all these things where like we have this illusion of order because we've avoided some of the catastrophes that could have happened. But you know, I think some of that's luck. I think some of that is just like all the ingredients are there, we've sort of designed a tinderbox,
and then we're just hoping a spark doesn't fly. And I think, you know, this is the stuff where what I'm talking about with this sort of design of systems and the proneness to flukes today is like, you know, the Arab spring was a place where everybody was on edge. I mean, all the people were restless and angry about the dictatorships. One guy lights himself on fire, and all of a sudden, you have a civil war in Syria with hundreds of thousands of people dying, multiple regimes collapse.
And so my point is that, like you know, I think we've set up these systems that are just super super prone to shocks, and the mistake we make is imagining they're like an outlier that's some weird thing that we couldn't have foreseen. I think we've designed systems that when the noise of life gets into the system, it actually creates these massive consequences. So, you know, that is something I worry about. The information pipelines is one that
amplifies it. And I think you're right to worry that we all get a little slice of reality because we exist in information bubbles.
Yeah, when you got back to America this time, we had dinner and we were chatting, and you said that you felt like America was a little bit scarier even than it had been a couple of years ago when you were here the last time. Can you talk about that.
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's something that's really striking. I've lived abroad for almost thirteen years now, and every time I go home, which is multiple times a year, I'm just struck by social dysfunction in a way that is totally alien in many parts of Europe. It's not Europe or Britain is like some paragon of good governance. Obviously, Like, you know, things are messed up really bad here.
Now you have bracs At, you have Richie Sudac, We often have Ian Dunstan here to tell us just about how fucked up you guys are.
But yes, continue, yeah, so there are there are problems, but like you know, I mean, the way I always explains to people is the British version of Anthony Fauci is named Chris Whitty, and he's like universally regarded as a hero. In the UK, almost everybody got vaccinated and just sort of followed the rules. We like had this tradition where everyone went out on their doorsteps and clapped for the nurses for.
Like months, right, yeah.
Now, I went home to the US in like twenty twenty one, and it was like this extreme polarization where you could see whether someone is a Democrat or Republican based on whether they were wearing a mask and then also like Anthony Fauci is like at credible risk of being murdered, and you know, these are like little canaries
in the coal mine. But it's also like just the visibility of partisanship where you know, you have these flags everywhere of you know, Trump or also all sorts of things where everything about like a lot of people's lives is sort of their identity is fused with partisanship, and it's just an it's like an angrier culture sure than what I'm used to in the UK. So you know, I do worry about that because it's long term stuff. I mean, this is not just like you know, Trump
goes away and then everything's fine. I think there's sort of a like a vitriol in American politics, an undercurrent of violence that is just so not in many parts of other rich democracies in the world.
Basically quite actually quite scary in my mind. I mean, I mean, is Fox News to blame or is it this sort of right wing media eco system.
I mean, I think it's a combination of right wing media and politicians who effectively inside violence. I mean, this is the big difference, right, Like there's decorum in politics in the UK not perfect. Boris Johnson broke a lot of rules. But if Boris Johnson said that, you know, the top general in the UK maybe should be killed for treason like Trump did with Mark Milly, it would not just be the end of his political career, he would be shunned by every single politician in his own party.
And I think this is the sort of stuff where like you just don't see it because it's like, you know, it's the terrible of the frog boiling or whatever in the boiling water. It's like, I think a lot of Americans are just like numbed to the fact that it's gotten so insane. I mean, I look at this stuff from over here and there's just a constant stream of the most insane stories and the most insane rhetoric, and you know, it's just beyond any sort of discourse that
exists in the UK. And I'm not trying to pump up the UK too much because I say there's a lot of problems, but like I mean, Boris Johnson got knocked out office because he had some people over during COVID and Liz Trusts, you know, when she tanked the economy, she had a nine percent I mean, she had a nine percent approval radium was ousted in forty nine days. I mean, Trump has had a forty percent approval rating since twenty sixteen. Right, It's like nothing he does matters
in terms of his approval. So, you know, I am worried about that. Where like people don't change their minds in the US, and the vitriol is so extreme, and the sort of toxic environment of right wing cable news and so on and propaganda lets along with this sort of vile rhetoric of Republicans calling for violence, that's this.
It's a cocktail made for political violence. And I think that as someone who studies political violence is part of my job, my diagnosis of why there hasn't been worse violence is that we are lucky.
Yeah, that doesn't make me feel better.
No, I know, I mean, but this is this is my honest assessment. Like I think, I think we have every single ingredient for like severe political violence and assassinations and so on. I'm surprised that hasn't happened. I hope it never happens. I hope that this is something where I'm completely wrong about it. But we have politicians stoking hatred you have extreme media polarization where people don't even
agree on reality anymore. You have four hundred million guns for a population of three hundred and thirty million people. I mean, you have this rhetoric that says that Democrats are communists who are trying to basically kidnap your children if you're a que non believer, for sexual gratification, or just that they're trying to destroy America because they believe that China is, like you know, better than you know,
the best thing since fly spread. Those delusions are ones that cause people to act, and so, you know, bringing it back to that sense of the flukes and the contingencies, I think we're just sort of in that tinderbox moment, and I'm really worried about how twenty twenty four is going to play out. I know it's not comforting, but it is something where the dynamics are so dysfunctional. I'm frankly surprised that there hasn't been worse violence in the
United States. So I would be shocked if twenty twenty four unfold without any political violence.
Well, that was really upsetting. Tell us how we put the genie back on the bottle.
The number one thing is electoral defeat. Eventually, this will focus the mind of Republicans and it's what needs to happen. It hasn't happened throughout these last several electoral defeats, but I think that like a resounding rejection of the sort of extremism, violent rhetoric and trump Ism is the first step to getting the party, the Republican Party, back from the brink of this like full on embrace of authoritary and violent extremism and barring that, I really worry about it.
So I think there's a way that this can happen. I think it's why everyone's actions in twenty twenty four are so important, because this is the most important election I think in modern history, and the effects of it could be very positive if the outcome is resounding, and it could be so, you know, my hope is that there will be a resounding rejection of this and it will start to dial back this rhetoric and make consequences for those who embrace the sort of rhetoric of violence.
Thanks Brian, There no moment full Jesse Cannon.
Uh oh, Molly, I'm feeling vibes. I think they're impeach bit whoa this is strange. I'm feeling vibes. What do you What do you feel about here?
It's a vibes based impeachment. Just like in succession. We can agree these are not here as people. The Republicans in the House of Representatives, fresh off trying to impeach Joe Biden non vibes, have moved on to impeach Alejandro myiorcis on vibes. Let me just say two things here. You cannot impeach someone because you don't like them. That's not how any of this works. They had a conservative lawyer, Jonathan Turley, who said, you can't impeach people people for
not liking how they're doing their job. It has to actually be an impeachable event. But God forbid Republicans ever do anything that makes any sense, and for that they feature prominently House Republicans. Yet again, are our moment of fuck Gray. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds in politics make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to
a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.