Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds, and the FDA has approved an over the counter oral contraceptive. We have a star studded show today. Sisters in Law podcast host Joyce Vance tells us all about Trump's legal woes, and there are a lot of them. Then we'll talk to Axios national political correspondent Alex Thompson about everything happening in Biden world and Ron DeSantis' many
bad political instincts. But first we have the author of the big Live pod Save Americas, Dan Pfeiffer.
Welcome to Fast Politics, Dan.
Paifer, Thanks for havould be good to talk to you.
Yeah, we're excited to have you back, especially right now because I feel like this is you know, you worked in the Obama administration. You have this little podcast no one's ever heard of, probably the reason all of us
are doing what we're doing right now. But more importantly, like you have worked in an administration and I feel like there are echoes of Obama here where it's like things are actually going quite well, and the Biden administration does not seem to be able to like kind of get the credit for it.
I mean, no president has ever or their staff has ever believed in our case, at least correctly, and in bindensc Care directly, they get credit for all everything good they have done. But there is a particular disconnect right now between the trajectory of the economy and people's opinion on that economy. I think it's a very complicated, complex
reason for set set of reasons for that. But how we we the progressive democratic world more broadly figures out how to unstick that situation is going to be very closely tied to what happens in twenty twenty four.
Yeah, so let's talk about that, because you know, we have a lot of economists on here, and I'm married to a venture capitalist, So we spend a lot of time worrying about the public market, and.
You know, there's a lot of anxiety.
And I lived through two thousand and eight, and you know, we talk a lot about what you know, there was a real conviction and I wouldn't even say conviction. I would say on the left, it was an anxiety. On the right, it was a fantasy that we were going to head to recession, that there was no way that you could quash inflation without driving the American economy into a recession.
And it seems like that's not happening.
Yeah, it seems, based on both the job numbers and the inflation numbers out earlier this week, that we are headed towards what the economists call soft landing, where you defeated inflation without heading to a recession. That would be huge, both substantively and politically, huge victory for the Biden administration and the set and everyone who's been trying to do this.
So, I mean there was a lot of like deft kind of maneuvering behind the scenes that made this happen.
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean you have the set of and this is you can't talk about this without tying it to the set of letislat of a college rests. The President has made first the American Rescue Plan to bring the economy back quickly, right, they get to restart hiring in this country, and then a bunch of longer term bills like the Chips Acts and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, which are leading to investment, which is then improving the markets.
It's improving hiring, and it is keeping me. It has kept the economy strong despite a pretty aggressive set of rate increases from the FED. It's almost like the economy is so strong that even the said can't start. John pal seems to be trying by he's been unable to do.
It, and the jobs numbers.
I mean, I'm not going to go crazy here on the economy start because I'm just a hobbyist. But the sort of feeling I always had growing up was that Republican presidents would sort of fall into good economic news is and then Democrats would have to sort of dig out from the whole that Republicans put us in.
Yeah, that's that is. That has been the very clear history. So there's an old, tired metaphor about Democrats having to clean up after the elephants at the circus every time they get in office.
But voters like to vote for Republicans on the economy.
Yeah, I mean, this is a really interesting question. Republicans have had an advantage on the economy more broadly, going back to Ragan, Democrats out of for a very long time, New Deal Roosevelt clad in the nineties had a very strong abamba one, you know, had a big advantage on the economy. Even in miss all the troubles he had
against Romney and twenty twelve, no president. And this is sort of gets to the question of how Biden is connect to navigate this is no person in monern history has won a presidential election without winning on the economy. The closest is it has ever been for the winners that Biden and Trump are essentially tied in the exit
polls on the economy. And so right now he the president, despite all of the successes and the state of the economy, you know jobs at you know unemploy rate disks, see your low inflation coming down for more than a year now sort back to the normal range. All of those things, is at a significant deficit on the economy. And that's why we're talking about bodynomics. That's why they're out the every day is they know they have to solve that problem.
And the best time to solve that problem is right now when the Republicans are in the midst of all their insane stuff in the primary. And he has sort of a little bit of a free lays out the right word, but he is not in a day to day back and forth with Donald Trump or on Santas he can just talk about the economy. This is what I wominated a moment at this exact point in time, was getting killed on the economy. Americans believed that he was not for eonomy. It was worse, for sure, it
was actually bad. Had we actually had a harder challenge in the sense that we add to tell people that things were going to get better rather than things are better. There wasn't you had to look at the horizon here. There's a possibility just some to look out their window and they may be able to feel better about it.
But the reasons why they are and I think are very complex, and that there is I do think one of the things we have to recognize is the polling is not telling us everything that it used to tell us, because there are a couple measures you look at it. There is overall economic approval of the president, there is approval of the economy itself, and there is right track rown track. I'm gonna do these in reverse order. Right track, wrong track is terrible. Right it is more suspended history.
That is when you do focus groups on this, and the reason those numbers are slow is Republicans all think the country is on the wrong direction because Joe Biden is president Donald Trump is not, and Democrats think the country a lot of Democrats and some independence think the country is on the wrong track because Donald Trump might
be president again. Like everything that's happening in this country, you know, it's hard to turn on the news despite the economic indicators strong the news and look at Donald Trump running around gaining in the polls for the Republican nomination with two indictments under his spelt and saying things are going great in the country. So you understand that
on approval of the economy. Over the last fifteen years, economic approval has become a proxy for presidential choice in I remember this so clearly that this happened, This has happened in every presidential election in recent history. Where in the middle of the two thousand and eight recession, basically the economic approval rating from when for the before almost
elected after Baba's like, it did not change, right. People thought the economy was going terribly for all that on his reasons, but the people who thought it was completely reversed Republicans thought the economy was doing better under Bush immediately thought it was terrible. And then you have black and brown voters who were by far suffering the worst under the resent under the financial crisis. Feeling better about
the economy has brought a Babama's president. And then even since then, the number of Republicans willing to say a Democrat is doing well on the economy has going as a kind of pass. It was like fifteen to eighteen people when Obama's present. Now it's under under ten for Biden,
and so that's going to lower your ceiling under all scenarios. Now, the challenge for by on this is that his economic approval rating is among Democrats among Democrats is ten to twelve points lower than his overall approval rating among Democrats.
I think that's going to change as the election picks up, and I think those two things are going to become one and the same, because how people are going to get think you'd be thinking about Biden versus Trump, or Biden versus Disantas, or Biden versus Doug Program or whoever whoever you want to pick as opposed to Biden versus whatever could possibly be in an ideal scenario. But the thing you look at and you worry about if you're the President's team, you or at least you worry it's
serially to worry. It is time to work on fixing is Biden's numbers among economic members, among independents, a group he won in twenty twenty are pretty far underwater, and that had and that's something that is going to have. You have spent a lot of time and money, frankly to change those impressions.
But it is interesting.
I mean, it seems more and more likely that DeSantis is not going to be the guy.
It seems that just help me.
But yeah, I mean I just think like it's so there seems to be this kind of hail Mary pass from Republican donor class where they're sort of trying to figure out, you know, some other person who is you know, I'm seeing donors doing events for Brook Scott.
And I know a friend of mine. You know, they're trying to get youngkin in.
But ultimately, I mean, it's not that they don't have enough candidates.
No, they have more candidates than they need. It's basically, if you look at the field right now, it's hard to imagine anyone running in this current field who can beat Donald Trump. Right that's just if you look at him, they are immensely flawed. They're not offering what the Party clearly wants. You know, in some in these polls, people's number one thing they want in a candidate who's not Trump is for that candidate to be like Trump. And
that was what the Saya's argument was. But he doesn't have the charisma or the skill or Coastald Trump is not just an extreme politician. He's not my cup at tea, but he's a charismatic extreme politician. And DeSantis is Christmas is not a word now I used to describe him. And you know this happens every time. In twenty twelve, when people were pretty satisfied with Romney in that field, there are efforts to get both Rubio and Christita on.
I mean there were people basically offering to write you know, five, ten to fifty million dollars checks of super packs to get Chris Christina.
On the salad days.
Yes for Chris Christy, for sure, Chris CHRISTI. Yeah, like there will be those efforts. I would imagine that maybe more young Kin than Scott, because I don't know sure what Scott's bringing to the table, but young Cain you can see on paper at least. Why the people the sort of people who can write the checks you need to get candidates to run, would be interested in someone like Line. Now Kenny's I mean he is himself a very rich Republican, so there's an affinity.
There, what I think is interesting and youngkin. It has the same problem as all of these candidates right there. You can look good on paper and then get in the race, and you know, I mean Desanta's has his problem is every time voters get to know him, they decide they don't like him.
I said this on Ponze Repers, which is candidates for president generally can do at least two of the following three things. Be a good speaker in front of a crowd like Obama, right, be really good in a small group. You know where you are, You're talking to Iowa Coccus Coors, and you were just you can persuade them and charm them, you know, like Biden is very good at that, Bill Clinton obviously famously good at that. George Bush quaity good
at that actually. Or you are very deaft with the media, right, which was you know that was the Hallmark cot Be pootage. Just as Kifane Trump is in his own weird way, very deaf with the media. Ron DeSantis is good at none of those things. In fact, I think he's actively bad at all of them. There was something diminishing once you get in a race, right, no matter how even
Obama came in. He got in that race, and we have twenty thousand people in Springfield, Illinois and Oprah's endorsing him, and then the second year, down fifteen points to Hillary Clinton in the polls, or you're losing to John Edwards and the Iowa coccause you look small, and then you have to build your way out of it, right. Biden had to do that, John McCain had to do that in two thousand and eight, Romney had to do in
twenty twelve. Like there's always a moment where the tests the candidate and if they have a little luck and a lot of skill, they can come back. It's just hard to see any of these candidates, particularly DeSantis, having
enough skill. So, you know, like even when Biden was struggling mightily in twenty twenty, you knew that he had a long history, a deep reservoir of support, and one hell of an electability argument against Trump, right, and when McCain was, you know, was basically firing his campaign staff in two thousand and eight. You knew that he had won some of these states before. There was a deep reservoir support with him among independents, and he was a pretty he was a you know, a very deft politician,
and he could come back. John Carey, you know, certainly had an electability argument and a profile that Vic Cannas were looking for in two thousand and four. It's just what has Rohn de Santas had that people want. It's really hard to divine when looking at the race thus far, completely baffling.
So twenty twenty four is going to be twenty twenty again unless something humongous have ends. I mean, do you think that that presents an opportunity for all of us to learn from our previous mistakes or do you think we just barrel into another or do you think we all just have nervous breakdowns and die because we can't stand another. I mean, it's basically been a decade taken up by Trump at this point.
I think, as you look at it right now, Joe Biden would have to be a slight favorite against Trump in twenty twenty four. And that says nothing about Joe Biden's political skills or anything if we had national popic food elections, he would be a significant favorite. Well, like, we just have to go into this election no matter what the polls are going to tell us throughout twenty twenty four that the total number of voters who will decide the election will be fewer people that attended the
most recent Tailer Sweat concert. Like that's what it's going to be, right, It's going to be one hundred thousand people if we're lucky over four or five states, and it's just going to be that close, and it is a game of inches. And I think that is one thing where I think we the world thought that that political gravity was real, and that or at least political gravity was stronger than polarization and structure and the structural
advantage electoral college. And it's not right no matter Trump, even with Trump could be have three convictions under his belt and he's probably going to do all at least pretty close to as well as he was doing in twenty twenty And what what is like the most worrisome thing here is you talked about it, and I've talked about it, is what role is a third party candidate play here, whether it's Joe Manchin and Fred Upton or
John Huntsman or Frankly Cornell West. All it takes is a few thousand voters you know who either were Trump Biden you know, go no labels this time, or you know a lot of voters you know we've Biden did overwhelmingly well with the people who voted for a third party candidate twenty sixteen. He won those I think by like two to one or three to one, and if any of those people go back to third parties, that
could be the difference in some of these states. And so that is there is this additional factor that we're going to have to be very vigilant of. And we all came out of twenty sixteen and recognizing the danger of it, and our party team tends to forget these things over time. Right, It's obviously why Al Gore loss. We cared passionately about it. We're conservative. It didn't really matter in two thousand and eight, we didn't have one.
Twenty twelve, twenty sixteen, it was the death of us, maybe literally, and we're back at it in twenty twenty four.
When we talk.
About no labels, those guys, Mark Penn, I mean, how angry are you Mark pennon no Labels is the brainchild of a man who used to be a Democrat.
I have been basically angry at Mark Penn for going on like seventeen years now, so even when he was still active in Democratic Party. Is one of the more malicious forces and more malicious and avarice forces at our party. I think no one who has noted hammer, worked around him, or worked against him is shocked that this is where we have ended up, Mark.
Penn and Nancy Jacobson, I mean and raising millions and millions of dollars from Republicans.
Yeah, who understand exactly what that money is for. But I mean Nelson Pelts gave millions of dollars. There are people in the Pelts family who I love and who are my friends. But on the other side of it is Nelson who is a Republican mega donor and who's giving this money in the hopes of helping Trump. Yeah, and did Trump go to his birthday party pretty recently?
Yes?
Yes, yes, yes he can't Donald Trump a ten your birth already. And that also somehow believe in some fantastical third party return to CENTRALSM Like those two things are not compatible.
I mean, this whole thing is bullshit. I mean, it's certainly a real threat. It's very real. I continually I'm just shocked by the idea that Trump has been indicted twice, probably coming up on a third, impeached twice, and really he somehow, I mean, you don't think that's going to make the base a little smaller.
I think we should operate as if it won't. It certainly can be. There are going to be a lot of people, I think who voted for I don't know. It is a very real question. You would think that a party of that seems like they would care about electability, would be concerned about backing a guy who's been indicted twice and soon to be three and maybe four times.
But polarization is very real. And if he is a nominee, no matter how many times he gets indebted mriter of our times, it gets convicted, no matter what he says, no matter what tape comes out a week before the election, down Trump is going to go into election day two inches from the end zone. Right, He's been the one yard line. And that is just That's how it is.
And that is true of DeSantis, that is true of Doug Bergum, it's true of Glenn Youngkin or Rick Scott like that's where we are in Trump is potentially more dangerous than those because he's the only person in the Republican Party who has shown a capacity to jack up turnout beyond previously known levels in rural areas. It's not just how you have to get to think. You have to look at support levels in turnout levels. And he moved support levels and among Republicans and rule areas from
where Democrats were in twenty twelve. But in Republicans, no matter what the running for Senate, Congress, governor, have kept those support levels, but they haven't gotten in turnout levels, which is why Democrats won in seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty twenty two. Trump is different ways on the ballot, and so I think we just have to operate. Is if this is going to be an incredibly close election, no
matter what insane like, that should be the less. No matter what insane, thank terrible thing he does, matterhigt of times he gets convicted or indicted or whatever else, this is going to be a game of benches.
Dan, thank you so much for coming on and joining us. And now I will go and move to a pineapple under the sea.
But thank you. Yes, I apologize for ending on that. Not so and that's what let's take note.
Joyce Vance is a professor at University of Alabama and host of the podcast Sisters in Law.
I am so excited to have my friend.
Who I really really like and who I'm going to do a panel with.
At the Texas Trip Fast That's right, we are. I'm very excited about that.
That's going to be great.
It's going to be amazing, Joyce Vance, Welcome to Fast Politics.
Well, thank you. Great week to be with you, Mollie.
It is a great week.
I mean it's hot and we're and you're in Alabama, so it's really hot.
Yeah, you guys don't know what hot is. It's a terrible down here.
Our listeners know a little bit about what's going on. But I would love you to give USS like a two second primer on Trump's many legal challenges.
Oh my gosh, if I only have two seconds, let me talk.
Oh you last ten minutes, yes, but go on.
Yes, he's in a lot of trouble, right, and it's great civil and criminal and typically we think that going to jail is the worst thing that can happen to a person, and it is a terrible thing. But in Trump's cases, he faces some really severe civil consequences as well. So let me start there.
Hmmm, that's interesting.
Egene Carrol is going to take Trump back to trial on defamation charges. The verdict she won earlier this year for five million dollars was actually the second case she filed that was comments he made about her after he left the presidency. But now in January, she's entitled to go back to trial on comments he made while he was the president, using the megaphone of the presidency. And the interesting thing about this case is most of the
issues are resolved in civil litigation. When an issue has been resolved between two parties in prior litigation, that ruling holds in future cases. In other words, you can't keep litigating over and over and over again whether or not Donald Trump acted with actual malice towards Egen Carroll. Pretty Much the only issue that's at stake in this next trial is the issue of damages. And here's the argument we can expect Eging Carroll's very capable lawyer, Robbie Caplan
to make. She's going to say, we successfully suit him for defamation, and the next day he got on national television and he defamed her again. So now, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, your job is to issue an amount of damages that will be sufficient to make him stop. Five million dollars wasn't enough, you know? And what do you think ten fifteen. It'll depend on what the jury wants to do. That case is serious for Trump, and
there are other civil cases. For instance, the New York Attorney General is trying to impose what's sometimes called the death penalty for businesses on his New York operations. So that case scheduled for this ball, but it may get pushed out of the way by some of the criminal stuff. They're the Manhattan DA's charges, charges that pre date Trump going into the presidency and which by the way, can't
be pardoned by a president. Those are state charges. There's the Maral Logo case, and I think we all know what's going on there. The real issue is will doj be able to try that case before the election or not? The evidence is overwhelming. Next on the ticket is probably a separate investigation. Jack Smith is running the investigation into January sixth. That's a big case. It's not just January sixth.
There's both a pre election component, a resolving the election component, and then a trying to interfere with the certification and the transfer of power component. It is unlikely at this point that Smith will be able to try this case before the election. So I think a lot of this comes down to what evidence he wants to put forward in the indictment. I would expect a big, speaking indictment, and then of course Georgia. We don't know who's going to go first, Jack Smith or Georgia.
You're pretty sure there's going to be another Jack Smith indictment.
So it's an interesting question, Molly, because sometimes what prosecutors will do in a close case is they'll give the evidence to the grand jury and they'll they'll let the grand jury make the decision about whether there's enough. But Jack Smith looks like he's playing for keeps. He's brought in all of the witnesses, including the former vice president. They're working hard, they're working fast. That has to be done in this case, whether you're going to indict or not.
But he looks like Key's for real, and we're on the DOJ timeline. We're on the summer timeline. So I would expect that if we're going to see an indictment, it will be in the next few weeks.
Okay, So, and then let's talk about Georgia.
Fannie willis experienced prosecutor, well versed in the use of Georgia's Mini Rico statute. She too, is looking at a lot of moving parts. It almost seems to me that there might be an inside Georgia case involving Georgia politicians and fake electors, and then an external influence case, or she may indict it altogether. There's some value in bringing
everything at once. But she has signaled as strongly as she can, telling the judges in her courthouse that she plans on having her folks work remotely in late August or early September. That looks to me like she's serious.
So you think that will be late August early September.
You know, she has paneled two new grand juries just this week. Presumably those are the grand juries that will hear any criminal indictments. They could end today, but she has sent this letter to the court suggesting that that would be a good time to not schedule hearings and that her folks will be working from home. I'd call that a signal.
Right, all right, yeah, that does sound like a signal.
We've already seen now that Trump has decided he's going to run out the clock, right that that is his tactic, and we've seen him do that before. The Jack Smith case for now, anyway, is in Florida. So the question I think I wonder is can he run out the clock in Florida with Jack Smith? Because of this maga judge Judge Eileen Cannon, right.
And it's largely up to her. She has discretion. We saw her rather than holding the lawyer's feet to the fire and holding her first the sip of pre trial conference on schedule and classified discovery, instead of really requiring the defense lawyers to do what she'd told him to do, she gave him a couple of extra days. You know, in the ultimate scheme of things, three days probably not
a big deal. But if that becomes weeks to resolve motions, or if the lawyers say, you know, I need to go on vacation and she says, okay, go ahead and go, then it becomes really impossible to get this case to trial ahead of the election. And this is a case that could be prepared to try pretty quickly. Something interesting, Molly that I'll just flag for you is that when the defense lawyers were trying to argue that there shouldn't even be a trial setting that discovery would be really complicated,
they were relying on thirty year old cases. You know, Manuel Noriega, right, Classified discovery is never easy. It's always complicated. It's gotten a lot more streamlined in the last thirty years. We have much better access to technology, and so yes, defendants' rights do have to be protected. They have to have sufficient time. It is not easy, but it's not trial three years from now.
Not easy.
It's trial in the spring, not easy.
Right, right right? I mean will he be able to run out the clock?
Two questions? One will the judge do her job? I wish I was more optimistic than I am about that. Second, will Jack Smith go to the Eleventh Circuit to seek refusal? I think he will do that on her first really bad ruling. I'm not sure that they shouldn't have done it right away, but you know, asking a judge to recuse those are sensitive issues. Perhaps the prosecutors felt better about her, but it's not just this issue of how
fast she goes to trial. The real problem here is that once the jury is sworn in and their in trial rulings that she makes about important things like what evidence can go in, what arguments the prosecution can make. If Trump gets an acquittal, the prosecution can't appeal those things, And so the judge can really put her thumb on the scale of justice if she's inclined to. And that's the big question here. Is she inclined to?
I mean, it seems like she might be right. The problem is we don't know. And so here's how lawyers resolve that kind of an issue. Judges are supposed to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Maybe she as pure as the driven snow. But if she was a responsible judge, she would say, I know that these two earlier cases where the Eleventh Circuit really called me for being out of bounds, they create an appearance of impropriety, and I'm
going to recuse from handling this case. That might have meant that DOJ would get another Trump appointed judge, right, and that would be just fine.
Right, I mean, aren't there only four? I mean in that district in Florida.
It depends on division, right, Every federal district. There ninety four across the country. They're mostly divided into divisions. She's in Fort Pierce. There are questions about where in the district this case should be tried. I wonder if we won't ultimately see it in the big courthouse in Miami for security reasons.
Oh.
Interesting, A lot of little issues there, but it doesn't really matter, you know, if it's a Trump appointed judge or not. You just don't want to judge where. A lot of people will will have lingering questions that there's a serious appearance of impropriety, not just not something speculative. This is a serious appearance of impropriety.
Can you talk to us a little bit about Walton not Trump's co defendant.
I find it to be a little bit difficult to not feel somewhat sorry for him.
Yeah, me too. Yeah.
This is somebody who came to the military from Guam, from sort of humble origins, you know, phenomenally successful, gets to work with the President of the United States, and that power imbalance and just that whole scenario I think helps us understand why Walt Nauda is where he is. He sticks with Trump. When Trump leaves the presidency, he moves around these boxes with classified material, and it is
entirely possible. And look, we're all reading tea leaves, but I think this is what the indictment adds up to now to takes those boxes and takes them to Trump so that Trump can look through stuff and pulse stuff out he does not want the government to find and maybe now even put some of that material into Trump's hands so he can take it to Bedminster with him. There's less clarity on that right now. Seems reasonable. So if now to you know, if I was walting out
as defense lawyer, I am nobody's defense lawyer. But if I was in this scenario representing my client and his interests, I would say, buddy, you're looking at twenty years plus in prison. Let's go cut a deal with the government. And so there's this concern because the reporting is that his lawyers are paid for by Trump's pack. Maybe even Trump had to sign off right on the lawyer. And we've seen this before Trump's lawyers.
You know that there's a sort of mafia thing where if they pay for your lawyers, that means they set your defense.
Exactly, and it's not supposed to be that way. The lawyers still have an obligation to represent the client, but really are they What we know here from the media is that there was an offer made to Nauda pre trial, and his lawyers sort of blew it off and claimed that there had been prosecutorial impropriety in that meeting. So whether or not Walt Nauda is well served by his lawyers remains to be seen.
But it's not like Walt Nada is in a place where he can afford these lawyers. And I was hoping you could talk about this because I was reporting about this. The Florida lawyers kind of got together and decided they were going to charge Trump all out of money.
Well, look, Trump is a dangerous client to take on.
Right, but you need to have a specific kind of security clearance to take that job.
You need to be able to obtain a clearance. And what DOJ has represented is that the FBI is prepared to, you know, do those clearances expeditiously, just in a matter of days.
So it's not you can't be Michael Cohen and get that clearance.
I think that that's right. You have to be able to get a clearance. But look, a lot of people can have a security clearance, Molly, I held you know, a top secret sci claim parents for many years in
my life. And so there are plenty of former United States Attorneys assistant United States Attorneys in Miami who are members of the bar in that court who would have been available in this three week search that resulted in a lawyer who is very well qualified to do state criminal work and state family court work, but who has never been in federal court, wasn't even registered in the federal filing system, right. The judge had to order that
she'd be entered into that. That's concerning, and that sort of breaks your heart for mister Nada. He should have a lawyer representing him, not Donald Trump. There are a lot of people who put Donald Trump's interests first.
Yeah, and it seems likely that that is how it will go for poor Walt Nada, who is an adult who makes his own decisions, but still clearly everything Trump touches, you know.
Yeah, of course there's Cassidy Hutchinson, right, Absolutely, Trump lawyers, and so you wonder if something like that might not happen for now to maybe he will talk to prosecutors, maybe he will hear something in court, but it's the financial issue. Right, how do you if your walt now to figure out how to go and put down whatever it is a couple hundred thousand dollars as a retainer for your own lawyers.
Yeah, completely crazy. So let me ask you.
Now, you know we're watching this Trump legal drama unfold. I mean, how much of a stress to using this is to Trump? You know, because politically he hasn't paid a price, but you know he's seventy seven years old.
To a normal human being, this would be really stressful, right, just the fact that you were dealing with all these legal issues, we're going to have to be in court a good bit. But Trump is sort of suey generous. He's just cut from his own cloth. He's very unique. I think he has skated through so much of his life. Maybe he thinks, you know, he can rule double sixes one more time and break free from all of it.
And certainly to your earlier point, Molly, and you seem to be awfully savvy about how this works for a non lawyer. I have to say that every time I listen to you, I think that.
Oh, thank you, why trying to just say anything stupid? Because I'm not a lawyer, so I just ask a lot of questions.
Well, you know, it takes a whole village of us to try to figure this out, right, But trum Trump's game is to win in twenty twenty four and then he has to get out of jail free card, and that is the fight for democracy's life that we are going to live through.
I have to say, like, it definitely seems like that's the plan, is that he's going to be able to because if he wins again, he can just punt everything down the road and then pardon himself.
Yeah. I mean, he can appoint his own attorney general, he can ignore the courts. I mean, he has shown a willingness to get away with behavior that is not the way presidents behave in a democracy.
Yeah, unbelievable. So there are no legal mechanisms. The thing I'm struck by again and again when we talk about this is like, this is a more of a theoretical question that I just want you to sort of bat around, which is Trump really was able to grow in a system where no one had ever been like that? Can you explain because there's no mechanism for like someone who operates without shame or remorse.
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the key to Trump's success. There are no norms, there is only self interest, and so Bob Muller and the Muller investigation is a great way to think about this. Muller an institutionalist, right, a straight arrow who believed in the system and believed that if he worked within the confines of the system, there would be accountability, if not from DOJ from Congress. That was not the paradigm that Trump was living in.
And Trump shamelessly obstructed that investigtionation should still, in my judgment, have been criminally charged for obstruction of justice based on the Muller report. But we lived in a system of deference where too many people thought, if we can just get a little bit further down the road, this crazy guy is going to disappear and everything will be restored. And the lesson of Trump and his failure to play by the rules is that it's a tough needle to thread. Mollie,
you cannot destroy all the norms. You cannot become Trump. To destroy Trump, right, that really would be the end of democracy. I mean, crowds of people shouting, you know, lock him up when he hasn't been convicted in a criminal court. We cannot let him turn us into that. But that said, we have to be stronger, we have to be more evolved. We've seen some of that from Jack Smith, right, He's been a little bit take no prisoners.
But by the same token, there's still that missing first year where DJ did not want to engage on the Trump portion of the January sixth case, and ultimately that lost year may cost us an awful lot.
So interesting.
I really appreciate you, I know, to come in and have to talk about sort of the whole gestalt is a.
Bit weird, but we really needed you.
It's not weird. It's my favorite thing to do. I'll come back anytime and I'll bring my dollie to market your dollar.
Yes, I would love it.
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Alex Thompson is a national correspondent at Axios.
Welcome Too Fast Politics, Alex Thompson.
Glad to be here.
Alex, tell us what your beat is.
I'm covering the twenty twenty four election, so a little bit of the GOP car wreck, and then also that Biden reelect as well.
And you also are writing a book about Biden. I am, so you know a lot of stuff. Now you are in the process of writing this book. We're not getting you're good when you're at peak dish.
No, that will come in about a year.
But we can still probably bully or manipulate you into telling.
Us some interesting stuff.
I think you can.
Okay, that's a hope.
So let's talk a little bit first about the Republican side, because what I mean, and I know you're not on the opinion side, so you don't don't feel that you have to give your opinion. I will just manipulate you into doing it. What is happening with this GOP primary field?
I mean, essentially it's Trump versus everybody and You're seeing every single candidate try to figure out is there a way to change the dynamic of this primary now. Some are just hoping for the debate stage. You see Chris Christy base and you know, arguing you have to go right through him. You have someone like Tim Scott who essentially is trying to play nice with everybody and just focus on his own image and never attacks anyone and just feels that the party may come to him in
order to go to a fresh face. Then you have someone like DeSantis in between, who is is basically picking and choosing his spots, you know, saying Trump was a good president, but and trying to you know, in some ways that is subtle. In some ways that is overt contract himself. But essentially Trump is the four in ch of Pound Gorilla. He is the King Kong of the race, and every single Republican strategists is scratching their heads trying to think, how can we change that dynamic?
Tell me if I'm wrong, You're really much more in it than I am.
But it does feel like twenty sixteen all over again.
That's interesting. I mean, I think there are a lot of parallels. I'd say the biggest difference between the two sides is that Trump at the beginning was pulling and like, you know, you have to remember in June of twenty fifteen, that's when Trump gets in the race, and he was in single digits and then he just sort of took off like a rocket ship and people were sort of in denial that he could actually win. And this time there is a sense of, well he is, like, there's
an almost an air of inevability. But in terms of I think what you're talking about is trying to figure out how to go at him. We are seeing basically everyone recycle all the saying strategies.
It didn't work that and it's not working now.
No, And I think maybe the only big difference is you're seeing Ron de Santis go to where Ted Cruz was near the end. You know, you're seeing Ronda Santis to it earlier.
And Ron DeSantis has a lot of Ted Cruz's people.
Yes, it's not a coincidence that the teams are very similar. I can tell you that Senator Cruz has remarked to other people, well, he's like, you know, those are a lot of my people over there. On both the official and the Super PAC side. You know, in some ways you could argue that they're trying to run the Ted Cruz twice sixteen campaign, but just with a different candidate.
Yeah, as someone who was the one they found, the one person less likable than Ted Cruz to run as Ted Cruz. Will see how it goes.
But it does.
Seem like the demise of Ron De Santis politically. He does seem to have captured the headlines. It's been four months, it feels like. And again, you can answer this however you want, that the more voters know him, the less they want him.
I agree and disagree with you, So I'll say I disagree with you and that I don't think anyone is ever as dumb or as smart as the national narrative is. I do think we're we are employees to potentially see a DeSantis like comeback. Boomletke by far and away as the most money of any candidate in the race that
includes Trump. Yeah, that's not nothing. And I do think he has the most advanced team in Iowa on the ground, and I do think they are getting a little bit more comfortable now that all being said, I think his rollout was a mess beyond just the Twitter stuff, I think really beyond. But there is this very you know, we talked, I just talked about how he has so much money, But the reasoning has so much money is
because of this weird interplay with the super Pack. It's not sometimes clear to anybody, to donors, people, even in the DeSantis world, who actually is in charge. And thet's closest age that went over to super Pack. Phil Klock has already not been fired. But let's you know, he
essentially has already been thrown out of the Superpack. So there's no one over at the super Pac that has you know, there's a few people, but the original team that was supposed to be close to the Santis isn't the super Pac anymore so, and that's caused a lot of confusion. That's why you see this sort of messaging that goes, you know, seems to go up and down. You also saw that at the very beginning, they were so confident, they were like, we don't need the mainstream media.
The mainstream media doesn't matter now. And now I can tell you reporters on the campaign jar getting like pitched by the DeSantis people, you know, multiple times a day to write stories. So you know, clearly they now have conceded the mainstream media as much as they hate it, you know, does matter a bit when you're trying to present.
Yeah, who could have thunk it there?
Yeah, I mean I do feel like some of the problem with Desanta's world is they're too smart by half, right, Santa's had Susan. I want you to explain to our listeners because this is like in the Weeds, who Susie Wyle is and why losing her may have ultimately have sort of reverberations that are impossible to quantify.
This is one of the most fascinating subplots. It's very Shakespearean right in the way that is so Susie Wilds worked for Trump in twenty sixteen. Then she is brought in after Ronda Santis, you know, wins the Gubernatoria Republican primary, and what's an upset The National Republican Party is like,
we got to get better people in there. So they bring Susie Wiles, who led Florida for Trump in twenty sixteen, she comes in, Ronda Santis wins, she joins the administration, and within a year she's on the outs and not just like oh, she went to go spend time with her family sort of on the outs. It's like, no, she is on the outs. We never want to speak to her again. She's terrible, And Ronda Santa is basically telling that anyone who will listen, you cannot hire Susie Wilds.
So it is. It was an acrimonious scored shars, yes, and na Cuzy Wilds is essentially they don't have titles of her, you know, the top tier of the Trump campaign, but basentially in practice she is co campaign manager of the Trump re election. Now there's a few practical things. It is not a coincidence that you have seen a lot of shit talking from former DeSantis aids. You know, it seems like every other story, I mean, going back
to twenty twelve. Basically, Ron DeSantis does not have besides his wife, does not have many loyalists around him, and a lot of people feel burned. And so there is a large group of desantus alumni that are willing to should talk him and you know, I think having Susie Wilds,
who knows all those people. There's a bunch of former DeSantis people from the twenty eighteen campaign that are now on the Trump team and I think the acrimonies of that relationship has really enabled for a lot of these embarrassing stories about DeSantis to come out, and it is going to be fascinating, just like everything in politics, like at the end of the day, comes down to personal relationships.
And there is none that's sort of more interesting than the Susie Wiles and DeSantis's hatred, like red hot rage toward her.
Yeah, so interesting. I don't want to like spend this whole time talking about this one, aid, but Susan wild is really good. She is very respected. The number you know, the Trump world, it's almost it's so easy to find
people to shit talk to each other. I mean, that's been like a dynamic of that world, you know, going back to when he was in business, and that comes from the top down because Trump loves to gossip and chit talk and people usually close with So I bring that up because to this day, I mean, I'm sure it does exist, but no one has shit talked to Susie Wilds in that world.
They've all should talk to each other. But I think there is real respect. I mean, she is this is not Corey Lewandowski here, I mean.
And she's very powerful in Florida.
So I don't know, maybe it's me that this subplot of the older woman getting you know, mistreated by this younger campaign and then going and sort of bringing back her power to this, I just think it's a pretty interesting step up. I want to get back to the publican party primary is DeSantis, Trump and everyone else.
But mostly it's just Trump and everyone else.
Yes, I think that's fair to say. And what's going to be a really interesting to watch is if Trump does not show up to the first debate, does that mean that everyone treats DeSantis, you know, as a punching bag, Because I think the Santis obviously wants this to be a Trump versus DeSantis race because that elevates him. But every other candidate is waiting to take DeSantis down so
that it becomes Trump versus versus everybody. And you know, DeSantis committing to going to that debate and Trump, if he steps it out, could end up being a really brutal SmackDown per desantas if he's not ready for it.
Yeah, and he's likely not, because we've seen him try to interact with others, with humans and it does not go great. Let's talk about the Biden reelect. We got Biden tell us what's happening behind the scenes, moving people around, and also talk to us about that rage story.
Absolutely, So I'll start with the rage story and then I'll go into sort of where the reelect is. Right now, Joe Biden has this very carefully cultivated image of the kindly uncle, kindly grandpa, treat everybody with respect. But I can tell you behind closed doors, this guy's a yeller and will lead aids sometimes pretty shaken, especially if they're
not used to it. Sometimes his rages can get so intense that you'll literally have an aid nervous to meet alone with him, and will bring in other people to come into the meeting because they know they're going to give him bad news and that way that the sort of firing line can be distributed. I'd also say that this does undermine sort of his public image, but also does undermine the Republican image of him basically being a brain in a jar, right, which is sort of what
they try to insinuate every day. And I tell you, I was talking to somebody who was talking people in the White House and they were just like, man, you know, I wish you was senile.
Because right right, because.
Yeah right, So Republicans are like, he's see now, he's see now. This story is actually helps make the case that Biden is competent. And by the way, nobody gives. We're not on cable news, so I can say this a shit. If a man is a mean boss, right, nobody cares. In fact, they may like it right a woman forget it right. We remember what happened with the rumors Senator Cloba show. But I mean, maybe it does somewhere,
but it seems very likely to not hurt Biden. I wonder why the Biden administration wouldn't necessarily want this out there.
It was interesting to me and reporting the story out because it wasn't handed to me. I certainly worked on it for a bit. But then once I went to them, you know, this is a white House that is very aggressive and defending its people, and this is one of those stories. And part of it was because I know they know it through. But they didn't push back that hard.
You know, they basically were like, let's give you some added context on like other nice things he does essentially right, and they didn't push back on any of the underlying facts, which to me reading between the lines. I did sort of wonder if they wouldn't mind this, because I can tell you behind closed doors, they may say, oh, you know, it's fine, but they are very worried about these age numbers and the poll of course, and they're trying to figure out how to change.
It, right.
I mean, the joke is that I just wrote about this yesterday at many Fair, was like, you cannot have this conversation, Like you can have this conversation about Biden's age if he's running against DeSantis, but if he's running against Trump, and it becomes a contest of who is healthier, and is Biden, the guy who bikes every day healthier than Trump, the guy who had COVID and lied about how sick he was, Like, you know, and Trump is three years younger than Biden.
I mean, this is going to bite them in the ass.
And it's funny because I think about, like if you go back in time to the debate performances, right, the Trump world was like, Biden is terrible debater. He's going to be terrible. He can't talk. So then he opened his mouth and people were like, that's not right, and then it ended up like really elevating him, right.
I mean, this is the same exact thing they're doing.
It is really interesting. A few months ago, they RNC started putting out some new talking points, basically saying, like the age stuff matters, but it's not going to be determinative. We need to really go after Biden read about substance, on his issues, on him doing a bad job, And I do think people do sometimes get surprised. You know, they might see a debate and follow twenty twenty four and realize that Joe Biden is more with it than
some of the quick clips on Fox News Primetime would suggest. Yeah. That being said, I think where Biden is struggles in a contrast with Trump, even though he does exercise more, and although they both eat pretty pretty terribly. I gotta tell you, I know it's true.
Well, the ice cream, I mean I was reading about it.
I was like, well, ice cream's okay, but the chicken nuggets.
And his aides joke that Biden's food palette is kindergarten, right, It's like beige, like every like it's it's lots of carbs, French fries, pasta. Like They'll keep trying to get him eat more fish, but then he'll sort of double down on dessert, and so it's like, don't really make him.
I'm sorry, I find thislius.
Yes, yes, yes, continue, Oh but I would saying, you know, the thing that Biden has always struggled with is just and this is part of where politics is in this reality television age we live in, is that, you know, the performance aspect of it, Trump just seems younger, and you know, Joe Biden's team continue. I mean, I know there's there's Democrats that have communicated to the president's team like, stop putting the guy just behind the lecture and the
letting him talk. It's just not his best format, is what they say. You know, it just makes him look even older. But they're still trying to figure it out. I don't. My suspicion, although I don't know, you don't have firm reporting, but my suspicion was it wasn't a coincidence that we saw pictures of him at the beach over the weekend.
They want those beach pictures.
I'm not sure, but I don't. I think they are trying to figure out any way to change those age numbers. They're debating a lot of different things. I don't know for sure, the beach ones I didn't make some calls on it afterward. That was striking to me that those emerged.
Alex, we're going to want you to come back.
I'm sorry, Oh well, that's I love to come back.
The bad news is we're going to need you to come back because I want to know more about what's going on. And also, as the Republican debates start going and the first starts flying over under, I'm going to ask you to prea it in the future what you're never supposed to do over under.
The Trump shows up at the debates.
I think he's not going to show to the first one, and then he will shut the second.
Very cinematic. We will see if you're right. Thanks so much, Alex.
Thank you no more perfectly. Jesse Canon, Milly jog Fast.
So the insurers have gone woke, according to Rohn dea Santis, and they're leaving Florida because of climate change, and they don't want to ensure homes in Florida because it's gonna screw them financially. What do you see in here?
Turns out the only bigger scam than Las Vegas insurance. They don't like to lose their money, and it turns out that ensuring houses that will be underwater is a bad business model, and so they are leaving the state of Florida. You know, Florida where woke goes to die. It ain't wokeness, buddy, it's capitalism. Do not confuse capitalism with wokeness. And for that that is our moment of fuck Ray. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.
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