Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, where we discussed the top political headlines with some of today's best minds, and Donald Trump is now the least popular newly elected president since World War Two. We have such a great show for you today. The Washington Post Dana Milbank stops by to talk about the republicans chaotic confirmation hearings. Then we'll talk to MSNBC's Alex Wagner about Trump's immigration shogunaw.
But first the news so Mali yesterday there was a lot, a lot, a lot of shokunaw. But the thing that we didn't get to yesterday was that the Trump administration offered roughly two million federal workers a buyout to resign and that they would pay their salary forward for seven months. This did not include a lot of people, for example, congressional employees, people and like the CBO, things like that, but it did include a lot of federal employees that
they think they could do without. What are you seeing here?
I'm going to read a tweet thread from an ABC reporter who noticed that this email looks suspiciously like a twenty twenty two email that Elon Musk wrote to Twitter employees after he bought the company and fired almost all of them. The memo sent to government employees this evening, offering them buyouts very closely mirrors and email Musk sent in twenty twenty two down to the same subject line
of fork in the Road. The twenty twenty two email tells Twitter employees only exceptional performance will constitute a passing grade. Compare that to the memo, the federal workforce should be comprised of the best America has to offer. We insist on excellence at every level, and another similarity. The same way, the OPM memo requires employees to only respond resigned to the email. To seal the deal, Musk as Twitter's employees to click yes on this link below if they wanted
to stay on a Twitter. Look, this is clearly the brainchild and I mean brain very loosely of the Office of Government Efficiency. We don't know if this is legal right to do this. We don't know if they have the money for this. I mean, this is all like cooked up in the middle of the night fever dream thing. But again, you know, this is the Donald Trump, move fast and break things presidency, so we'll see what happens. We did see Tim Kaine come out and say, do
not agree to this. They don't have any standing. Just ignore them, and we're going to probably see, as you're telling me from your friends, we're probably going to see a lot more of government employees just ignoring the stuff that's coming from on high.
Yeah. A lot of people I were speaking to is like almost no one qualifies for this. As well. There's a tweet from Amanda Littman front of the show from Run for Some that shows a lot of people are like, hell, no, I'm staying here to make sure things don't go to hell.
It's funny because it's like, it's not funny now, this is funny.
It's fucked up.
But it's interesting to see that it's so easy to squander any kind of respect to have so quickly. Trump had an opportunity to go in there and you know, have a connection to federal employees and inspire them to do well right by him.
Of course he wasn't going to do that, and now we have a.
Federal workforce that is furious and is likely going to leak like a sieve and create a lot of secondary.
Problems that he probably wasn't expecting.
I would stay tuned on this, I think we'll see a lot of stuff. By the way, Carolyn Levitt, who is the new Trumpy Press secretary, she is also blonde and in her twenties, she said that American taxpayers pay for the salaries of federal government employees, and therefore deserve employees working on their behalf actually show up to work
in our federal office buildings, also paid by taxpayers. Again, you know, a lot of these people have been remote working for a long time, and some of them have been asked to remote work because their offices have been closed or because it just works better that way. So, you know, again a blunt object to try to do too much. We'll see what happens. This probably will be pretty bad. Speaking of bad, let's talk about Mark Milly.
Yes, so Pete hegg Saith has decided to remove his security detail, which really seems just spiteful and like most of these things, stupid.
It's not just that he wants to remove his security detail. Pete hegg Seth wants to punish Mark Milly. Now, Mark Milley has already gotten a pardon from Biden. He was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for four years, under Trump, and also he was a holdover under Biden, so he took away the security detail of Milly, Foulton, oh and Fauci. He's taken away a lot of people security detail as a way of punishing them by making them afraid for their safety.
That's very trumpy, making sure they can't see the the level of fucker either about it engagement, right.
It's not good.
But I want to point out that there's also another thing happening here right, which is Haigseth is going after Milly because Milly was the source for these books and Trump is mad at him. So they're going to say that this is this is against the chain of command, and they're going to try to prosecute him, take away one of his stars, mess with his pension. But I think it's important to realize, like, these are anti democratic
things that are happening in Trump world. These are the sort of Project twenty twenty five, for lack of a better shorthand, this is the autocratic stuff that democrats warned you was coming. So going after retired military generals is insane, not the norm, anti democratic, and it is part of this attacker se thing we see in Trump world. So just keep your eye on it. It's bad and it's probably just the beginning.
As you and I are speaking right now, RFKA Junior is going through his confirmation hearing. I'm sure the worm is doing the talking anyway, brainworm.
Yes, yes, yes, you may have to put anyway go on.
Yes, So we have here Maggie Hassan doing some question from them in play agree upon.
I am really hardened to see that one area where we agree on is on women's reproductive freedom.
In your own.
Words, it's not the government's place to tell people.
What to do with their bodies.
You said that, correct, yep.
Mister Kennedy.
In twenty twenty three, you came to New Hampshire and said, quote, I'm pro choice. I don't think the government has any business telling people what they can or cannot.
Do with their body.
So you said that right, yes, yep. But you also said we need to trust the women to make that choice, because I don't trust government to.
Make any choices.
She said that too, right.
Yes.
It is remarkable that you have such a long record of fighting for women's reproductive freedom, and really great that my Republican colleagues are so open to voting for a pro choice HHS secretary.
So this was smart. This was really fucking smart. And we talk about how Democrats can be smart.
This is it.
Right. She's not using it to yell at him, she's not using it to talk about something weird.
She's not using it to moralize or.
Grand you know, like we have seen hearings where Democratic senators have lectured the nominee. That's not what's happening here. What's happening here is she is highlighting the fact that RFK Junior doesn't believe in anything, and she does.
It really well.
It's really smart, and it's really focused. And I think that in my mind, the more these questionners can be focused and they don't have to cover every subject, and the more they can work together and be like I'm going to talk about abortion, you should talk about data DA, the better these things are going to be. And so again this is my plea to elected democrats. Work together, divide and conquer, stay focused, don't let these leaders avoid accountability.
That was really great. Bravo, Maggie Hassen.
All right, Molly, here, I have an unlikely a tech dog here for you. But I'm kind of shocked because Senator Michael Bennett here in the RFK confirmation. Hearing this at tech dog Barkin and I don't usually see him bark.
Did you say that COVID nineteen was a genetically engineered bioweapon the targets black and white people but spared Ashkenazi, Jews and Chinese people.
I didn't say it was deliberately targeted.
I just I just quoted an NIH funded, an NIH published study.
Did you say that it targets black and white people but spared I.
Quote, I quoted an study that show I.
Take that as I have to move on. I have to move on. Did you say that lime disease is is highly likely a materially engineered bioweapon. I made sure I put in the highly likely. Did you say lime disease is a highly likely militarily engineered bioweapon?
I probably did say that.
Did you say that that's developer. I want all of our colleagues to hear mister Kennedy, I want them to hear it.
You said yes.
Did you say that exposure to pesticize causes children to become transgender?
No?
I never said that.
Okay, I have the record that I'll give to the chairman and he can make his judgment about what you said.
Did you in your book?
And it's undeniable that African African AIDS is an entirely different disease from Western AIDS. Yes or no, mister Kennedy. I'm not sure if I'll give it to the chairman, mister Kennedy. And my final question, did you say on a podcast and I quote, I wouldn't leave it abortion to the States. My belief is we should leave it to the woman. We shouldn't have the government involved, even if it's full term. Did you say that, mister Senator?
I believe that every abortion is a tragedy.
Did you say it? Mister Kennedy just matters. It doesn't matter what you come here and say. That isn't true, that's not reflective of what you really believe that you haven't said over decade after decade after decade, Because unlike other jobs we're confirming around this place, this is a job where it is life and death for the kids that I used to work for in the Denver public schools and for families all over this country that are suffering from living in the richest country of the world
that can't deliver basic healthcare and basic mental health care to them. It's too important for the games that you're playing, mister Kennedy. And I hope my colleagues will say to the President, I have no influence over him. I hope my colleagues will say to the President, out of three hundred and thirty million Americans, we can do better than this.
Incredible.
That was a dog barking in a fight, and I like to see it.
That's what we need, man. And way to go, Michael Bennett. Incredible stuff. Good for him.
So some good news. We have our first special election of the year. Democrat Mike Zimmer has won the special election for ias thirty fifth Senate district seat.
No one helps Democrats more in elections than Donald Trump.
He is not on the ballot.
Donald Trump is really helpful to Democrats. And that's because Donald Trump is not a Republican. He is his own thing, and the people who turn out for him do not necessarily turn out for regular Republicans. Zimmer will replace a Republican. It's small, but it's meaningful. A lot of the craziest shit comes out of the state House, especially in places like Iowa, so you can dismiss this, but let's not let's just enjoy that Iowa's thirty fifth Senate district seat
is now held by a Democrat. Data Milbank is a columnist at The Washington Post and the author of Fools on the Hell, the Hooligans, Saboteurs, Conspiracy Theorists, and Dances who Burned Down the House. Welcome Back, Too Fast, Politics, Data Melbank.
Thank you, Molly. It is always a pleasure to be with you.
I'm so happy to have you here. Before I came here, I was watching my favorite channel. And I don't just say this because they actually have gifted me a fleece recently, but Caesman is my favorite channel as well it should be, and I was watching it because I'm incredibly old on my cable television.
Wow, how does that work?
If you're over fifty, you know exactly how cable television works.
But if you're under you do not.
No.
I cut the cord myself.
Oh Jesus Christ.
Anyway, Watching the beginning of the hearing, the tanniest person ever to occupy Washington, DC, someone who really gives Donald Trump a run for the money. RFK Junior is about to begin his hearings discuss.
I'm a little sad because they actually have like ten columnists writing on it today at the Washington Post. Why didn't you just hold off for day two and cash battel tomorrow? I mean, it is sort of an embarrassment of riches. Truth is, I would rather do the cash btel one that's going to be Zanier. But man, I was not expecting Caroline Kennedy to come out the way she did.
He's been great entertainment so far, right.
I mean, it's important not to be a nihilist about this, but yes, we can enjoy the horror of it to laugh, to keep from crying, but yes.
Go on, yes, And then then does he become Secretary of Health and Human Services and the Avian flu comes to get us all, and they've imposed a blackout so we won't actually know what the government is saying about anything. We've we're pulling out of the WHO, and you know, withdrawing funding even before we formally pull out of the WHO, so the whole you know, we sort of paralyzed the United States government. We're paralyzing the world's public health response,
and we're not getting basic even childhood vaccines here. Although I guess I guess he's come out for the polio vaccine.
So yeah, well you got it. I can't imagine why he's come out for the poli vaccine when going for a vote in front of someone who has still suffers from the effects of polio. I guess that he can't quite say that polio was a hoax yet No.
And then you know, then of course Trump came out for these both the vaccine, and you.
Know with his line, it sounded like Frederick Douglas.
He's like, yeah, Jonahsock did some great work and he's being recognized more and more.
Yeah, watching these Republicans and again, look Friday, we saw this hegseth vote. It was you know, all we have in Trump world is the sort of history of Trump one point zero where Democrats were able to prevent Republicans from doing a lot of the worst stuff, right Like they wanted to appeal the ACA. They didn't want to repeal ACA. They wanted to repeal Obamacare. Turns out that was the same thing. But there were a lot of tries at doing things, but a lot of stuff they
were they wanted to do, they couldn't do. So now the whole sort of premise of Trump's second term at least according to the people behind the scenes who are writing what little policy there is is to really do that stuff this time.
And so that's kind of what we're watching unfold.
Yes and no, I mean I think it.
You know, where Democrats blocked Trump the first time was in Congress. So let's you know, realize. I mean, Congress hasn't done anything yet. I mean, I guess there's the Lake and Riley Act, right, which is symbolic, and he'llsale sign that.
Right, which is crime's bad.
Yeah, crime is, crime remains bad. It's just as bad and maybe even more bad than it was yesterday.
Right, Murdering a very good looking white person especially bad.
Yes, well you got you got it right.
You get an extra extra time in the pokey for that, you know. I mean, what Trump is trying to do is say, you know, the hell with Congress. I'm going to act by executive FIAT to do the things I couldn't do last time. So you know, that's what we've had so far with these three hundred executive or and actions. So I mean, none of them is the law of the land, right, all easily undone eventually, you know, by a future administration, because it's not legislation, and hopefully a
lot of them to be undone in court. You know, already his attempt to sign a piece of paper that eliminates the fourteenth Amendment. And now you see the zany freeze of everything.
Three trillion dollars of the federal government. Now that's right, now, that's that's on hold. So once you know, it's shocking, it's overwhelming what we've seen over the last ten days or so, and I think we do need, you know, not just outrage, but concerned action in terms of court action. But you know, it has to be remembered at the same time that there is only so much he can do by executive order, and he's he's seizing powers that
he doesn't have right now. So presumably that ultimately doesn't last, and even this frum friendly Supreme Court won't allow it to happen. Of course, you know, if the Trump friendly Supreme Court decides you don't actually need a legislative branch and the president can do whatever he wants, well, then we're in a different Then we're in a different place. But you know we'll cross that bridge. Will we get to it?
Yeah, the Trump friendly Supreme Court, We're going to do two minutes on the impoundment stuff.
Because any any more than that and everybody would stop listening.
Yes, exactly, because not only will you unsubscribe, but you will block me from your feet. But what I want, why I want to talk about empowerment is because so empoundment means there's money that Congress appropriates for things.
That's how it works.
Congress is theoretically supposed to control the purse. But what Nixon did, and you'll remember Nixon as the closest thing to Trump, I do remember, mintion is yes, this was way before Jesse and I were born, because we're very young. Basically, he used the money that Congress appropriated as a kind of carrotenstick for stuff he wanted and favors the kind of oligarch autocrat shit that they do in Russia. And now ross vat at omb did this in the first
Trump administration. That's why he got impeached for Ukrain. Now we're in the second Trump administration. Rusvat is still not Senate approved yet, though he probably will be because nobody has any bravery whatsoever. But the question here is will Republicans be able to impound the money?
Will they keep it will this law.
The nineteen seventy four Impoundment Act put to prevent this put into law to prevent this, will that be upheld? Or is some of the purpose of this to create a constitutional crisis, to bring this law up to the Supreme Court and to assume that Trump's justices will do what he wants.
I assume that is what they're up to here. I mean, you know, to listen to russ vote and his confirmation hearings. They say, well, you know, he's asked about the Empowerment Act. I say, well, you know, President Trump says it's unconstitutional and President Trump campaigned against it. Well, if you campaigned against it and you won, so I guess that means you don't have to follow that particular law. So clearly it's it's they're planning a flagrant violation of the law,
which already has been upheld by the Supreme Court. And the assumption has to be that this particular Supreme Court is going to be friendlier. But that's quite a ways to go. Then why bother giving Congress the purse strings? If ultimately the president is going to decide which money will get spent and which money won't get spent.
But you know, I mean there's a lot of that.
You know, take saying you know, the law is what I say it is, whether it's with the impoundment of the fourteenth Amendment or you know, firing a dozen Inspectors General without the notice, you know, eliminating career civil servant protections. I mean, all of this is in flagrant violation of
the law. So clearly they're trying to precipitate either a constitutionetional crisis or just wiping out laws by you know, the Supreme Court blessing the wiping out of laws by this a stroke of the penet of the president.
Right, there is a real question.
And I mean I always think that cynicism is the worst thing we can have here. As much as you and I are very cynical, there have been times when this Supreme Court has not completely rubber stamped Donald Trump. And I'm thinking about the sentencing opinion, right, even though it was an insane thing to send up to the court, because the truth is, there's no reason why this man should not have had to sit for the sentencing. But whatever, it was still Roberts and Barrett who went with the liberals.
So here's a question for you. If it gets kicked to the Supreme Court, what do you think that means?
Well, I'm glad you asked me, because I am a constitutional scholar. Known to me, I do still hold out some hope that Barrett and Roberts and even Kavanaugh, you know, still have some sense of some basic fealty to the constantutione and are not interested in rewriting things for political purposes,
as say, you know, Alito or Thomas or Gorsuch. Maybe I guess in the broader sense, yes, that would be a constitutional crisis, and the impact, of course, would be devastating if the Supreme Court, you know, sent this country in an entirely different direction after two centuries.
I think until we get to.
That point, which is still pretty far off, what really matters is not the outrage over he's destroying institutions and norms and he's precipitating a crisis. What's going to matter is people are going to say, wait a second, I voted for this guy to reduce prices, and all he is doing is picking fights and vengeance and taking away people's security details. And now he's taking away my medicaid benefits and meals on.
Wheels for old folks.
So that's what's going to matter, is when people see and head start, Yeah, things going badly for them and people around them. President not delivering what he was supposed to do and instead he's all about settling personal scores and trying to pick fights with the Congress in the Supreme Court, right, and.
That I think is that that will be the big question. So here we are, we have more confirmation hearings. I mean, Cash Bettel, Tulsea Gabbard, RFK Junior. You know, I saw rfk's former vice presidential whatever, Nicole Shanahan, doing a video about how if anyone votes against him, she will fund primary challengers. We've seen other billionaires do this. As a favorite of Elon's too, or as we like to think of him, Leon, what's your take on this? I mean, does this work? I mean I guess it does, right.
Yes, but it's sort of you know, redundant. I mean, you know, there's already automatic primary challenges to anybody who defies Trump for anything, so they don't need any additional funding from Nicole Shanahan or Elon Musk or anybody else, you know, So I think those threats are kind of ludicrous. I mean, there already is lockstep discipline, or at least
there has been so far. I mean, look, you could have knocked me over with a feather when McConnell actually voted against xact or maybe he knew that he was going through anyway.
I'm going to stop you for a minute because you are a real DC person. And again and everyone who's so cynicals like, oh McConnell, whatever he knew, I don't think he knew.
First of all, I think that.
Tillis was a no until they went and talked to him for two hours.
God knows what they said to him.
The fact that he's voting against nominees I think is really meaningful. Say more about why you think it's meaningful.
Well, because for ten years now, I've been thinking, oh, this is the moment when McConnell will actually stand up to Trump when it matters. At each time it's been you know, Charlie Brown in the football. So I mean, maybe it didn't matter this time since it was going through anyway, But.
It's meaningful because McConnell was the leader, and like mcconnald's vote means more than a regular center vote.
Yeah, I suppose, or maybe it means more in public. I mean, he's been so discredited in Maga eyes as you know, the old crow. I'm not actually sure it matters that much to the Trump faithful.
But look, it's a numbers game.
And if you got Murkowski and Collins are somewhat more reliable no on the most zany outrages and abuses, and if McConnell, then all right, you're down to your tiebreaker. And then you know who's the next guy who's going to develop a spine? It may it looked like that on the hegseth. That might be Tom Tillsey even had what was it his excess. Former sister in law urged her to come out publicly because he said that could tilt the balance. She comes out publicly and he still votes.
Thanks a lot, dude.
So you know, will he grow a spine or a pair?
As they say, I'll be pleasantly surprised when I see it.
Yeah, But I mean I do think it's meaningful. And again I understand that I'm the boy whistling in the dark to keep myself from being afraid.
But this is all we have that's right, Well, on to something.
Yeah, exactly.
So the frozen federal budget is now there's a court injunction. We're going to see that play out. We've got more hearings. I mean, what else are you watching here?
It's a little bit of ADHD. I should try to focus on anything.
I mean, yeah, I mean last week I was focusing on Trump not seeming to know what his own administration is doing, and clearly his press secretary doesn't know either. I'm focusing more on his vengeance this week. She seems great, by the way, Oh she's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, just yet another really, I mean, just another star in the making.
I threw in a line about her wearing a purple jacket and across of the type most commonly seen repelling vampires, and I thought I would get a lot more blowback than I did.
But you know, people are anti vampire.
Yeah.
I mean what I'm watching for.
Is I alluded to a moment ago is where he's actually doing things that are going to hurt people, forcing up prices, shuttering programs, precipitating international crises, you know, things that people are going to notice and feel in their lives and say, hey, wait a second, this is not
what I voted for. That's what's it's going to matter, because you know, the election unfortunately, did prove that for a lot of people, you know, talking about he's destroying our constitutional system and our democracy.
It just didn't wash for them.
Yeah, I mean that is that fundamental problem with Trump, isn't which is when you try to explain that he's planning on doing all this stuff, people would be like, well, he didn't do it last time.
Yeah, right, because he tried and he couldn't.
But it looks like he may well be able to get a lot of this done this time, you know, and in a sense like yeah, you know, the federal judge saved him from himself with this you know, temporary to till February third, whatever, you know, suspension of the
of the pause, the pause and the pause. But you know, I mean at some point, yeah, they're going to stop the head start and meals on wheels and medicaid or some equivalent crisis, and people are going to actually say, wait a second, this is not what I thought I was getting.
Right exactly, this is not what I thought I was getting. Dana Melbank.
I hope he'll come back anytime.
Molly Alex Wagner is the host of MSNBC's Trump Land with Alex Wagner. Welcome to Fast Politics, Alex Wagner, thank you for having me.
Molly John passed.
I'm so excited. I'm thrilled you're doing this really interesting thing. Explain to us what you're doing now.
Well, listen.
I think when Trump was reelected there was thinking that, like, we got to do something differently this time. We got to be eggrective in our coverage. We got to look under each stone, and there are many stones. But we also need to be enterprising in terms of what we're covering because obviously Trump is the master of distraction and there's really important stuff that happens that we often don't get it to really talk about our analyze because we're
dealing with a daily onslaught of controversy. So we have the inimitable Rachel Mattow sitting at the desk five days a week, and we have me out in a country reporting on the big stories of each week and talking to people that honestly, you don't usually see on television,
having conversations that you don't normally hear on television. And the idea is we got to do something differently, like I said, and we're going to be as tenacious and as aggressive and as you know, resourceful as the moment demand.
So that's what I've been doing.
And like I started last week outside of DC jail talking to January sixth inmates, and this week I've been speaking to migrants who are working to know their rights and figure out a strategy and a battle plan for mass deportation, which seems to be very clearly at the top of the President's list of things to do.
So I have a lot of questions.
First, I want you to talk about the January sixth talking to those people, because that is a really interesting group that I mean, and I don't mean this to elevate them, because I know there's a lot of really problematic stuff for the larger like four democracy, But I'm wondering if you could talk just a little bit about what it was like with the group out there and sort of what their expectations were and what their feelings were about Donald Trump.
Yeah, I mean, I wanted to have the conversations with them because I think it's important to know the sort of to understand the stories of the people who are at the center of the news, and I was eager to hear first of all their thoughts about Trump and also kind of like where their allegiance stands now that they're free, because I think a lot of people wonder how Trump is going to carry out some of his
most draconian plans. You know, standard of lawlessness or lawfulness is and they are a great bell weather for that. So you know, the first thing that struck me. I mean, perhaps it's not surprising that they are so intensely loyal to Donald Trump in a way that I think eclipses even their sense of allegiance on January six. Like, I talked to one father who had two children in jail. He himself was also there at January six, and he said to me, with tears in his eyes, I would die for this now.
So they don't feel like Trump put them in this position.
No, And I told you a woman who was involved in the riot and was pardoned by President Trump. She said, I don't understand why I was ever in jail. And Anthony Fauci and Liz Cheney warrant, Oh wow. The sort of conspiracy theory narratives that have been spun around prominent resistance figures and resistance is like does people who are still tethered to reality and care about the future of
a you know, our American democracy. That sort of poison is like deep in the veins, especially for January six ers, even though they may have been in you know, federal kind of tenuries during the like most of the last couple of years. They are angry, but they are also intensely hopeful about what President Trump can establish and accomplish, and they're ready to go for him. I mean, I asked a number of them, if he asks you to
go do something, will you go do it? And almost to a person, they said, hell, yeah, Like he hasn't given up on us. We would never give up on him. The other thing is so speaking Molly, is so many of them have talked directly with Trump. Either they were at mar A Lago, you know, if they were family members of Jason, or they've spoken on the phone to him numerous times. I mean, as a matter of like
constituent outreach. Donald Trump is a machine. Like the fact that this guy has focused so much of his attentions on this group of people should tell you a lot about how important they are to him. In his second presidency, and.
If we look historically at autocrats who craft their own militias or their own it never.
Ends well, you never want an autocrat.
To have a bunch an army, right.
De facto army.
That is never a good sign for democratic norms.
Well, and it's not just the fifteen hundred people he pardoned or community the sentences of it's the signal that's sent to any other militia member. I mean, I talked to militia memories before the twenty twenty election who may not have actually been there on January sixth, but were inclined to think about extra judicial solutions to a broken government or a broken.
You know, election. They you know, there are a lot of people.
Who weren't active around January sixth, but have been entranced by Maggot in the intervening years. And like the pardoning is a huge signal to all of them that if you do Trump spitting, he's got your back.
Yeah. No, I think that's right.
And that is, if you think about it, quite worrying for any number of reasons. And the fact that they consider themselves to be sort of the bizarro doctor Fauci is just can you talk me through that?
Thinking, they believe that there are actors who are trying to destroy the country. I mean, this is where the q Andon like the snake, the q Andon snake begins eating the Maga tail right right, the like there was no mention of pizza.
Game, right. Oh, well, that's something, you know.
The vast conspiracy that exists in the deep state is something they absolutely believe in. They believe, to a person that the twenty twenty election was stolen. I asked a number of them, well, if twenty twenty was stolen, why we let him win in twenty twenty four, and they said, because it was too big to rig. His margin was just too big to rig, and that's the only reason the system wasn't set up against him. But they believe that, you know, Lias Cheney is a trader. I mean, they
believe that Mark Milly is a trader. They believe that Anthony Fauci is the architect of our national despair. And the question is the degree to which Trump sort of tries to point them in that direction and actually calls for them to do something to those people. I mean, of course I hope that never happens, but it seemed to me that a number of them were ready to do what you know, they needed to do because this was bigger than just them, This was bigger than jail time.
This was a central part of what they understood to be their American identity, which is wild.
You know it's wild, right, I think that's really important.
We interviewed this academic who I'm kind of obsessed with at Harvard called Thetis Scotch Paul, and she was talking about how often post a pandemic people will have a certain amount of memory holding, like they just won't be able to keep the memory of the experience in their head because it's so traumatic. How does that make sense with this just like amateur psychiatrists for me, for a second.
Gary, amateur, Like didn't go to med.
School, I didn't even go to college.
So well, but you're you're what is it, You're naturally brilliant.
I'm not sure, but anyway, yeah, listen, I totally agree. I feel like so much of our national unpacking needs to happen around COVID because I do think it's like a lacuna and people were filled with so much rage and loneliness and despair and it compounded. And I really believe this you know what Vivick Murphy, the Surgeon General, once called like at the epidemic of loneliness and what you know, Michael, there's so many people that sees on
this this is all connected, right. People feel alone, they feel disconnected from community. They're angry about their their particular situation, whether economically, culturally, financially, socially whatever, and they look for an outlet for that, and for these kind of jan sixers and so the Maga diehards. I think COVID was this incredible inflection point where they had no outlet for the loneliness, They had no one to turn to, and here comes a strong man suggesting that all of this
is a fabrication. That all of the pain that they felt and that they've gone through and that lies ahead for them, can you know, be either erased or vanished
from the horizon if they just believe in him. I mean, I think it also speaks to the decline of like religion in this country, like are you know, the public spare has gone away and people just want to believe in someone and something and Trump, you know, sort of I think the dawn of perhaps the most the more poisonous stage of Trump ism that coincided with the COVID pandemic, and I just think that there's a lot that that stirred up, that there's a direct line you can draw
between the sort of venomous force of MAGA and what everybody went through during the COVID pandemic.
I mean, you know, like I think all of.
Us liberals, centrists and you know, conservatives, we've all had to kind of move past it in a way because life goes on, right.
But it was intensely scarring.
I mean, and you know people who lost their loved ones in the hospitals and had to say goodbye on zoom. I mean, these are dehumanizing moments that the just being apart from each other, which is against the natural order of humanity. I mean, we haven't come to terms, I think, with just absolutely how disruptive and devastating those those several years were.
You know, it's as you're talking about this, what I'm struck by is I was on Morning Joe, not that we're doing MSPR here, but we can, but we can.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I was talking to Read Hoffman and he was saying, like, AI is going to be so great, and I was like, you know, it seems like there's going to be unintended consequences. Can you talk about the unintended consequences? Because that's something that is really right at the top of my mind when we talk about Trump is because they're always you know, move fast and break things, means you actually break things.
And I said him, what are the unintended consequences?
And he was like, well, after the printing press there was you know, one hundred years of war, and I just was thinking about how advances, how these terrifying unintended consequences. Though I think with the Rioters this is actually an intended consequence.
Yeah, I mean I think we underestimate how cathartic ragees. You know, having an enemy to pin your disappointments on can be just a hugely relieving thing, you know, and if you're living with pain or you're living in a dark place, I mean there is something to be said for like you go, I've been to a number of Trump rallies, right, yeah, and they take on the air
of a religious revival, right they fill this hole. And I mean, like not to get super like therapy on you, but like there is something incredibly intoxicating about anger, right, It's like a fueling feeling. And yeah, like I just I feel like after a period of hurt, whether it's just COVID or the preceding years, to just be able to live in a state of rage, can be electrified.
And I think that's part of the appeal here.
Yeah, I think that's right.
And I also think it's so interesting talk to me about the next week. You go to a radically different place with a radically different group of people.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think the idea is to get into the muscle of all of this because we taught so much of the consequences and the players. All that exists in the abstract. So we talk about immigration, We hear about these immigration rates as like what's going on with the immigrants?
You know?
And what I found was just an extraordinary amount of fear.
You know.
I talk to a number of people who are terrified and maybe keeping their children home from school. They don't know what their future next week is. But I also found a community of people who are trying to understand what their constitutional rights are. There's a series of seminars
called no Your Rights the Borders Are. Tom Holman calls them how to escape arrest seminars, but they're run by various community groups, and they're these kind of workshops where immigrants go, they can ask questions, they get kind of a strategy for how to deal with ICE agents if
they come in and try and arrest them. And you know, they do what is called a role playing exercise where one migrant will be the migrant and one will be the ICE agent, and they kind of do this acting exercise effectively to run through, did you a dry run a test run of what it would be like to be on the verge of deportation?
And it was so.
Fascinating, Molly, because on some level, these people are confronting their greatest fear right, it's very scenario that their life in America is on the precipice of ending right and shattering everything that they've built. And the other level, they're confronting it right most directly and in that way that this is like one long therapy session.
No, it's good, I feel very very helpful to me anyway, go on.
Yet, confronting your fears is a way of gaining.
Strength and feeling empowered.
And what you would see in the course of these workshops is that people would start to laugh and people started engaging, and they felt like they were united as one, and they felt like you know when you look fear right in the eye and say, Okay, I got this, I can do this.
I know what I'm going to do. I have a plan.
It's the only way to manage what is right now, especially an unmanageable, chaotic and totally unprettict situation. Right like people don't know whether they can go to the grocery store, and ge don't know whether the kids can go to school. They're just like they're terrified. But if you can say I know what I'm going to do, you know, it's like stop, drop and roll. It's like this is the
order of things. It offers some sense of empowerment, it offers sense of agency, and it was like, actually a totally remarkable thing to see how this group of very marginalized people who are largely under assault from the Trump
administration is managing this moment of profound fear. And in a lot of ways it was weirdly hopeful, right Like nobody's suggesting they're not going to get deported, but just in terms of the human struggle, looking at the resilience of these people, right, the people who worked their butts off to come to America and continue to work their butts off as the economic backbone, and who want to stay in America to continue to contribute to society and
say almost to a person, we still love this place, we still believe in this place, we believe we are equal, and we know we have rights. It was really like an extraordinary experience to see how they're coping with this moment.
I mean, there is hope in this And I also think that the stories of people and their real experience are the only way we can get into what's actually happening, because you know, the statistics don't really tell the story that people know.
No, they did. Yeah, And also I think it's really important.
The right has a very well oiled like social media machine and messaging machine around getting the garbage out, which is what the arkham Mansecurity Secretary called undocumented migrants in this country, and like the left has largely I think because they were cowed by the twenty twenty four election results. They feel like they don't have their immigration platform worked out.
But the vitriol that's coming from the right, the mischaracterization of who these people are is being met with utter silence on the left, and so honestly it's left to the media to go and say, oh, but this is actually who these people are.
They are not there.
I mean, it's a vanishing percentage that are actually violent criminals. This majority of these people are people that are making the country hup. And it's important to remind everybody of the real actual narrative here and not what Trump and his allies would have you believe.
Let's have two seconds on Tom Holman, because this guy is such an interesting character and what he's doing right now is absolutely atrocious. But he comes from Obama world, right, I mean, he has had this strange transition he was retired.
Yeah, I think there's something that happens when you're in a kind of incarceratory position.
Where in order to do the work.
You kind of need to dehumanize the people that you are arresting and incarcerating. You have to begin to look at them as the enemy that needs to be caught. I mean, I think that's just kind of a natural progression of things, right, I mean, I think cops sometimes have to de humanize people. They have to think in blanket terms, like I'm sure prison guards kind of do the same thing, and I think if.
Your borders are you often do that.
The issue with Holman is he seems to have drunk from the fountain of Maga, and the dehumanization has taken on a level of cruelty and sort of like shamelessness. It is a stunning portrait of like our darker selves. Right, there's a zeal for capture and enthusiasm for punishment and a wartlessness that seems really like a byproduct of someone
who's I don't know. It's gotten very dark in tom Home and Land in the intervening years between Obama and it's I think unfortunate that we have someone so seemingly incapable of seeing the humanity in these people, who's running the entire program.
I mean, I think the same of Stephen Miller too.
Yes, Steven Miller. Find someone who loves you, like Steven Miller hates immigrants. Thank you so much, Alex, really appreciate you, and may till you want to come back and talk about your report.
It would be really great.
I will come back whenever you'll have me.
Molly, no moment, Andon Jesse Cannon, So Molly, yesterday we got a first taste of a press briefing by Caroline Lovett, and.
The taste was Korean from the northern region of the region in my Tastes.
Carolyn Levitt, Trump's new press secretary for as long as she lasts, did a lot of the kind of stuff we saw previous Trump press secretaries do whenever they would have press briefings, which was not that often. You know, it's funny because it's like, I think of all the people in Trump World, like, will she end up going against Trump and will I end up interviewing her on this podcast or will she go along with and end up on Fox News. It's a real choose your own
adventure for Carolyn Levitt. She is at this job to humiliate the press, to elevate right wing figures, to spread lies, to be hostile. You know, she has this job for one reason, right, So we shouldn't be surprised, you know, this is what happens and so but she is our moment of fun Gray.
Can I make a third wager on where she ends up? Yeah? This is my wild card televangelist.
Very nice, not impossible.
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