¶ Pre-Roll Clips
On this week's episode, Lee Griffing says something very lame.
I try to fly as though I have an FAA inspector on my airplane all the time.
Ha, That's lame
Scott Bores expresses the gratitude and overall respect he has for the men and women who teach him how
while you're trying to maintain airspeed. You to fly. can't it's not you remember you weren't expecting it? Does it? everybody forgets about it?
Well I was gonna say next next time my deadbeat CFI shows up to give me a flying lesson.
And I carelessly spend $200,000 where was I?
Okay, you spend an extra $200,000. But what did you get for it?
Welcome to the FAR AIM podcast This week we are covering VX and Vy speeds its best rate of climb versus best angle of climb. And welcome back to the 2021 season. This is the first episode of the year that we are actually live streaming it. So if you're one of the very, very, very few lucky ones who caught this live congratulations. Very, very exclusive club. If you're interested in more Live podcast recording sessions, go to RobertBerger.com/live get on the
email address. We're bouncing around with some different platforms that we livestream on. If you are on that email list, you will always be updated on where and when and possibly what
¶ Intro
we will be recording about. So yes, Vx, Vy. These are two v speeds v speeds are we've done an episode on V speeds before. We want to delve more into these two specific ones because they are probably the most important ones.
And most misunderstood, probably.
Okay. Yes. So what's a brief before we get started case, someone hadn't listened to that episode. What is the like a brief summary of what V speeds are?
I mean, I mean, I can Scott You want this one? O r I mean, you want me to try to be brief.
I mean, I don't know all of them. But like, vx would be like,
just like in general, what are v speeds? Right? That's what you're asking Rob like,
what's the V for?
yeah
catch them up.
We have people listening. Like my sister right now. I think she's the only one watching that don't know what v speeds are so but there's and there's a lot of new pilots the show or or people who want to get into aviation who just don't like the speeds? What What does that even talking about? I wanted to cover that before we even get in to like the nuances
¶ What Are V Speeds?
of two of the v speeds.
Yeah. preface
like performance. speeds, right.
Yeah.
What's a performance Speed? I don't understand.
Like best performance for certain things. Best speed for certain things like best climb, best rate of climb. Best maneuvering speed, or maximum
why do they call them v speeds. why do they call them v sp
Velocity speed.
I'm Scott. I'm Scott, Boresing Scott Bores right now.
Velocity speed,
I'm witnessing it. The magic is quite something to behold.
Velocity speeds.
Okay.
Right
It's kind of redundant, right? We call it v speeds. But yeah, V stands for velocity. You know, it's engineering, you know, they think about things and see things totally different than us. These are all engineering, engineering, performance metrics that they figured out in a wind tunnel, probably and maybe a little bit some of the flight testing. But, um, yeah, I think you're right, more correct the first time or not the first time, but at the beginning, there is just their performance
speeds. So we know, kind of the envelope. And if if you're an engineer, you can probably look at these v speeds, and probably mentally start picturing what this airfoil looks like, what this airplane looks like. It's kind of weird to think about because I know I don't think that way. But like, they can say, Okay, you got a stall speed of, let's say, 50 and you got a never exceed speed of, you know, 250 it's like wow, this this airfoil is gonna look like this.
So there's a lot of things you know, it's engineering stuff, but yeah, I mean, you can start to look a little bit at the picture of the performance envelope with this aircraft, how slow can it go and how fast can it go? before it falls out of the sky, or falls apart? That's our V speed. So anything in between, which we can go from, you know, slowest speed to to the highest speed. And we've done that in a previous episode probably beyond the kind of what
we're trying to do here. But you can look at these things and there's you can start to understand the airplane a little bit better when you know what all these speeds are. That's why it's important to flight training to know these.
What's the,
for your particular airplane?
What's the stall speed? V speed? V what
vs.
vs.
vs. Yeah. So that that would be so your velocity, you know, your stall velocity in a clean configuration that would be V s,
that's probably the most important one to know.
I don't know if that's true. But I think that's probably beyond where we want to go for this one.
Yeah, I would, I would sum it up in as you have speeds that are designated as different things every airplane has like a stall speed of VX and V y, which we're covering this episode, a never exceed speed, the maximum speed, the airplane can go and use a pilot. Basically, you're familiar with all those designations, but they're different for every
different airplane. So you'd look at the pilots operating Handbook, for example, on most trainer airplanes, and it would be you look up the V speeds, you'd be like, Okay, this airplane, you know that the speed is that this and this, you can kind of compare it to other aircraft you flown, and then have an idea of what to be looking for on the airspeed indicator during different phases of flight based off of what the V speeds are for a specific make and model of airplane. that fair?
Yeah,
so
100% and in a sense, there is not a wide variety, I can sum this up probably and save people a lot of heartache when that maybe not, but if you're in a light airplane, and you weigh in, it weighs you know, around 2500 pounds, you know, maximum takeoff weight, your stall speeds can be around 45 your liftoff speeds gonna be around 55 your best angle climbs gonna be around 65 your best rate of rate of climb around 65 or 75. And your enroute climbs gunna be about 85. Done. Think about it.
You go look at a 172 you go look at an Archer, you look at 182 look at a Saratoga, they're all right around in there.
Yeah
it's because they all have a similar airfoil
Yeah well, Saratoga weighs more, but it's a similar airfoil so you're
not that far off. You can there's two different ways you can learn to teach people to fly, you can know that airplane and then like have to relearn the next airplane or you can kind of teach generalities like the big picture you know in that that that I think that's a little bit more important is the big picture about aviation recognize that somebody may not only ever flied just a 150 the very next you can you can they could pass her private pilot checkride today, and tomorrow
they bought a Cherokee 180 Well, all everything you just taught him was all you know, all about a 150. So I would rather go with the generalities and make sure they're not know the numbers, but
yeah, I mean, obviously you're gonna want to learn the numbers for the aircraft. You're flying. Right?
Yes, but can you fly? Can you fly plus or minus two knots? I can't.
Oh, yeah, I can. I can nail this for I file it for exactly every time.
No, you can't. What's the width of the airspeed indicator needle? You can't even you don't even know what that is.
Scott's a prodigy. He's A Flying prodigy.
Well, thats true you both are.
I would say the tips like one millimeter.
So how many miles per hour knots is that though?
Oh, I don't need the needle. I can just tell.
Scott's airplane is so accurate. Those gauges. Those 1960s gauges. He's rocking in his plane. Still are dead on
like, I just lick my finger and stick it out the Lee window. I can tell exactly how fast I'm going. I don't
¶ Scott Bores Boasts
Im surprised you even need to do that, sir.
It's called experience. Lee. You know once you get there
I have so much to learn.
Yep.
Yeah You don't really have hours like like I do. You'll get there.
No. One day one day. That
hopefully
I wake up every morning hoping Today's the day I can be as good as Scott Bores
If you come out to the airport more. I would give Right
Get to that Scott Bores Level you some time in the 150 let me give you some lessons but you n ver seem to make it out here.
I know it's tough is tough. It's tough. So, where were we though like Vx vurses Vy how we how did we get where we were
Vx Vy. That is basically you're using the speeds on climbout. You got you know, you take you took off you've got full power and most trainer airplanes and you are doing a climb. That climb angle is based on airspeeds. You're basically you're looking at your airspeed indicator. And if you are going too slow, you're putting the nose down a little bit. If you're going too fast, you're raising it up trying to hit these two numbers, one of these two numbers if you're doing it
correctly. I mean, there's situations where you don't really have to follow these to a tee and you can kind of get loosey goosey. But if you're doing it properly, you're going to be on one of these airspeeds and you're going to be pitching
¶ Vx & Vy
the nose based off that airspeed indicator off of Vx or Vy. And ahh Vy is best rate of climb, Vx is best angle of climb and the way I personally remember that is the letter X has more angles in it. I always love teaching that that way.
I always used to think velocity extreme. So like your most extreme angle. That's what I used to think
that emails, let us know, let us know which of those two is more helpful
velocity extreme, the most extreme angle that you can climb
x having more angles to remember that VX is best angle climb or velocity extreme to remember that VX is best angle of climb. We'd love to hear the emails, let us let us
velocity extreme
email those emails, email those to me.
if you don't email at all, we just assume that you agree with me. So
please email. We need to shut him up. Seriously.
So.
yeah.
So we'll just have a look at all the listens all the downloads for this episode. And anybody that didn't email agrees with me. So
all right,
anybody
That's unfortunate. It's an unfortunate thing. Moving on. How would you How would you? How would you teach this to students? Lee? We're both CFIs. But you've actually had students, I just had little green card and makes me feel good about myself. I don't actually teach anybody anything.
I say the same thing. That's the best way to remember it. X has meant well. I mean, technically, a straight line is 180 degrees. So technically, I mean, it really probably doesn't have more angles in it. I don't know. I mean, there's 360 degrees in an angle. But anyways, that's why I would say it the same way. It's got more angles x visually, it has more angles in it. So I get what you're saying. I'd say the
same thing. Um, it depends on which, which way you're trying to go, or you're trying to go more rote memory? Or are you trying to really get them through just being able to regurgitate, okay, best angle is, you know, 64 knots or, you know, 62 knots, whatever the case may be? Are you trying to push them through that and, and get them to understand that and correlate that. That's probably one of the more important things, which is what we're
trying to accomplish today. You know, that beyond the rote memory, just knowing, you know, there's more angles than an X and there isn't a Y, I get what you're saying 100%. That's the exact same way that I would have taught it, you know, and I still would teach it, just to get through the initial rote memory.
But when we get beyond that, and we're trying to apply it, like we'll through the course of this episode, they need to have the fundamentals understand what the difference is, and why because it is, it is kind of a little bit confusing. Why one would be why one you would use in a certain situation over the other when one, you know, says best rate of climb. And that kind of you always want to see that best
rate all the time. You that's so common, when best angle is really more important, probably, if it's not hitting something out in front of you. So I know we're trying to address that. I usually teach the same way.
I usually do VX until I know, I'm like clear of everything. And then I switched to v y. But
what if your Do you know what do I mean? Like that's the thing is, I hear you and you're right. But like Why? like Could you give me any numbers
I mean
it would probably be safer to use VX all the time, just because altitude equals saftey. But yes,
but
ahh that's a whole nother thing people don't think about. I don't know if thats what you just met.
Well, yeah. Altitude is
I just alluded to, you're about to hit something. Well,
Vy gets you up faster,
right? And the higher you are the safer You are so
yeah, but so what Rob was just saying though, is
¶ What Airspeed Should You Climb At?
in a given period of time, he's gonna get more altitude IV Why?
If I don't have any if I don't have any obstructions I'm trying to avoid Vy is gonna get me higher faster.
That's true.
You're right. Right. Yeah. But it has, irrespective of the ground you've covered. If I am trying to keep as much runway underneath me as possible, in case of an engine failure right after takeoff, VX, once again still a more pertinent consideration than vy, you will gain the most altitude in a
given distance. So that means I can take off, climb to 50 feet, 150 feet 500 feet, and I am more likely to have runway underneath me or I am still closer to the runway, then you would be Rob climbing out of best rate. That's what I always think about it. So if this engine fails right now, what am I doing? Am I doing this impossible turn and trying to get around? Well, it's not that impossible. There's runway right underneath me.
Yeah, but then you have to lose altitude. So you're gonna gain a bunch of speed?
I don't. I don't know if that a factor Though,
if you're trying to land
no it's definitely a factor. it's definitely factor. So
if you're trying to land on the remaining runway and you have excess altitude, it's gonna be hard to stop.
No, no, that's behind you, you would do 180 degree turn.
You mean you would. Okay. So you're, you're above the point where you're gonna land on the same runway in the same direction. You're gonna turn around and land on it.
No opposite direction.
Well, yeah, obviously.
Well, so what's the issue? Then?
I was saying, nevermind, whatever.
Well, no, I wanna understand, if it's a point
like, in my 150 If I, if it's a cool day, and I'm by myself with half tank of fuel, I'm going to be several 100 feet, you know, well, maybe not several 100. But I'm going to be 100
I was gonna say you're full of shit
by half by halfway down the runway. I can be easily at 100 feet. If the engine quits. I can probably stop, get it back down and stop before the end of the runway. Am I better off?
No, I don't agree with you. But okay.
Well, I mean, I guess it depends on what runway I'm at. But
to go to go from 100 to go from 50 feet to the runways 1000 feet of runway you're going to leave behind you. You only have 2500 feet to take care to take off. So you said you took off midway.
Okay, the engines dead.
The engine failed. Yep
drop full flaps. I bet I could get her stopped by the end of the runway
but which is not instant, which is not instant.
No. But I bet I could get it stopped by the end of the runway
Well, I mean, you'd be betting your life on it. So
right. What else
You better you better hope so
well it either the end of the runway or the highway. So
I agree with you. I'm not saying that would be a bad choice because
you're a giant ditch with a bunch of trees. So either way.
Yeah, I would try and get it down. I I agree with you. I'm just I don't you wouldn't?
Ahhh I could do it.
The math doesn't work out.
I'll try it.
Scott I don't think you could.
Let's try it.
It's the safer path. It's a safer path, but you wouldn't be able to, to go from 50 feet above the ground. It's gonna take you
so If i'm by myself with
Yep
with low fuel, say quarter tanks of fuel. On a cool day. On a cool day. I could get 50 feet.
Yeah
Before I even get halfway down the runway. I guarantee you if I chop the power, and put it in full flaps and land, and immediately hit the brakes. I can stop before the end of the runway Guaranteed.
I think it's kind of crazy. You're saying guaranteed?
Well, um, well, I guess
and you're talking. You're talking about your strip Scott. Right?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess I can't say guaranteed,
¶ Scott Bores Boasts
but I'm pretty sure I could pull that off. Not gonna try it. But
so what if you cut your runway in half? How many feet is that? 1250?
Yeah.
So you want your saying your going to be 50 feet above the ground?
At the threshold, the threshold of 1250 runway. I could make it.
No, you're going into what's ever on the end of the runway.
Na
it will take you a 1000 feet to go from that 50 foot to basically not touchdown I don't wanna say touchdown
o your telling me ou telling me if I'm 50 foot igh at the threshold of the unway that I can't stop by the alfway point. I guarantee I can I've already done it.
Yeah, hold on. You're already. You're already flaps full.
Okay,
you didn't recognize an engine failure.
your set up to land already. You're not setup to land when your engine fails
Okay. Okay. Okay. I'll come in. Next time I fly. I'll come in. I'll try to get 50 feet above the threshold with no flaps in and I'll immediately put the flaps in and see where I can get it stopped at
but you know, it's coming though. So you need to say hey, right now I'm going to experience And
Okay,next time my flight instructor
No listen, listen One 1000 two 1000. Then go flaps full.
Okay Okay
while you're trying to maintain airspeed you can't it's not you remember you weren't expecting it.
Yeah
that's it everybody forgets about engine failure
well, I was gonna say next
not expecting it
next time my deadbeat CFI shows up to give me a flying lesson. When we're coming in for a landing set, he should say like, I'm going to show you how to do a landing. And when we're 50 feet, use you time it, get the altitude. So
you might be able to, I think it's gonna be i we're 50 feet above the runway and say, with no flaps and say, Oh my god, the engine just quit, stop, get it stopped as soon as you can, and see what I can do. I bet I can still get it stopped before halfway down the runway. Is that would be an accurate example.Right guess i My point is, I'm thinking about it, I'm starting to agree with your assessment. You know, your airplane, you know, your airport, you have a lot of things in your favor.
What you won't ever have in your favor is one, that engine is going to fail and you don't know when that moment is going to happen. So there is some delay human nature, there is lag time when you identify the engine has failed, there's nothing you can do about it. And now you're going to try and land you're saying you want to land on what's left, that's your only option. That is your safest option. For sure. There's no doubt about that. I'm not
disputing that a single bit. I and I'm certainly like I said, I'm starting to agree with you, you're probably not gonna, you're probably going to be able to get down at the end of the runway 50 feet, that's probably doable. If you're 50 feet by the middle of the runway, I'd also like to see that but that's that's another that's another talking point. But that's
probably doable. If you can get 50 feet by this by by the runway in your airplane, you Okay, you you have a you've identified you've lost an engine, that is a bad situation. 150 You know, you're taking off at 55 miles an hour or whatever it is, you're bleeding speed the whole time you're thinking about what's
happening. So that's going to shorten your takeoff, your landing roll, you know, your kind of your, your engine failure after takeoff roll, when you land, you're gonna have to aggressively push that nose over, to preserve airspeed, so you can flare somewhat, and kind of you know, keep it under control. So you're gonna have a very short roll out after this little emergency has happened. So I guess I'm so I'm, like I said, I'm starting to agree with
you a little bit. But the bottom line what I was getting back to you for and Rob, you brought up a point you go to take off the
¶ Losing An Engine On Takeoff
axe is what is going to leave, the best angle of climb is what's going to leave the most amount of runway underneath you or closer to underneath you than Vy even if you don't have an obstacle. You seem to have something on that? No.
Um, I think that if you It depends on what kind of environment you're taking off from. If you're taking off of in a small plane out of a big runway, I don't see a lot of advantage to using VX. I just want to get as high as I possibly can as fast as I can.
What do you mean by as fast as you can? Okay, what about this? What if you're taking off the opposite direction of where you're actually trying to go?
Okay,
the most amount of altitude in a given distance, why am I going down away from where I'm trying to get
¶ When To Use Vy
to? I don't I never plan that precisely when I take off trying to try to do that advantage. I'm the type of guy that will get sidetracked it and go on a little sightseeing tour. Like before I leave the area and then like you know, cruise around for 20 minutes and then oh yeah, I'm trying to get somewhere and then I'll start you know, going off towards my destination. So yeah, that okay, that never really is a factor to me.
And that concept right there is why somebody says hey, I have 172 now I need a 182 I need a Cirrus because they want to do that and not think they want to just go on like a
¶ Wasting Performance
joyride. And still when they're doing their joy ride still get somewhere fast. Well, if you treat your airplane, like the tool that it is, don't blame how slow your airplane is on necessarily just on the airplane. Think about the way you're using it. That's my point. I'm not saying you're using your airplane wrong, Rob. Not at all. You know, you are saying is what I do. You know, you're I know you're identifying the issue and you're not saying, Oh, I need more, I need bigger,
better faster. But a lot of people do that they fall into that trap like, Oh, I'm gonna go do this sightseeing tour. I'm not gonna care about what runway I take off on even though I'm going the other way and all these things. And then they're gonna say, Oh, the airplanes too slow. I need a bonanza. I need a Cirrus. I'm the Columbia 400. And I'm like, how about you think about how you're using the airplane that might be better than spending an extra $200,000?
Well, it my point, if you do spend the extra $200,000. And in both situations, you are doing the same thing. You're still going to be at an advantage or spending a little extra money.
You say that again? When they say the very last thing again?
I'm distracted by Scott's text message. Me too. We've got your You're dismissed for now.
I'll try to get back. Maybe I'll be back. All right.
No, you better be back.
I'll be back.
Alright, um, where was I?
Okay, you spent an extra $200,000 but what did you get for it?
Ah, kind of some extra airspeed. So when I lollygag and fly over the Huron Pier, and then buzz Kelly's island on my way to Columbus, I I still get there faster, even though I'm completely not being efficient.
¶ Scott Bores Interrupts
Yeah. And that's okay, if that's up to you. But if you are blaming on your airplane being so slow, you need to just, I would say be introspective. Look at what you're doing. You know, that is? How are you climbing? What runway? Are you using all these things? There's a lot of things that play into it. And yeah,
¶ Wasting Performance
maybe they won't make any difference to you. Maybe you're doing it perfect. But I I've just seen a lot of people say oh anymore. I mean, that's the way it always is, you know, you have money, you want more. And it's just easy. It's easier to make the airplane faster and is to make you faster.
Yes. So I people take steroids,
which I get, which I get but part a lot of the fun to me, is seeing what I can eke out of the airplane. Like Scott, I'll go round around, okay, oh, he took off from Tiffany basically the same time. And, you know, you went further and this amount of time, and then I did and I went faster and this higher, whatever. And those things are interesting to me. They're just interesting to me. So, you know, it's, it's a little bit of a different thing.
But if you're trying to eke out performance, there are instances that are other than trying to clear an obstacle that I think v x best angle of climb can make more sense. obstacles are the clear or obviously the clear answer. And that's probably what a flight instructor would allude to most often when they're bringing up a scenario to show you the difference between view VX and V y best angle versus
best rate. But if you have, so what I always try to get students to do is envision on their very first takeoff of the day. So like if they own an airplane, envision that first takeoff of the day, as like knowing that engine is going to
¶ Takeoff As Though The Engine Will Fail
fail in if they knew that engine was going to fail. at 500 feet after takeoff 500 feet above the ground level, what would they do to give themselves the best chances of getting that thing turned around or finding you know, a field off to the side of the you know, straight out but off to the side or something like that on the takeoff like flight path. And so you know, I try to make the first flight of the day in
that airplane for them. I want them to treat it you know like a short field takeoff a climb at VX. So short field takeoff typically means you're going to have some sort of flaps and some airplanes needed some flaps on a normal takeoff. You know most jets do and in some, some other airplanes do depending on the profile, the wing whatever, whatever the engineers come up with flaps for easy to as a lift device if they want some high speed characteristics on the
other end. So flaps are an easy thing you can manipulate to get to the lift to take off a shorter runway while still having an overall aerodynamic airfoil that's going to allow you for high speeds like jets, all jets. Every airliner that I know of has some form of takeoff flaps. So that's a good case in point. So I try to have students teach treat each first takeoff of the day as a short field, so they have some flaps in, and when they lift off, they are
going to climb at VX. So best angle of climb until obstacle clearance height, which I kind of have them use their peripheral vision and look kind of around the greater terrain, you know, there's trees, we need to clear once they're above like kind of the average or whatever terrain around, that's when we will then shallow it out to best angle of climb speed, and retract the flaps. And then continue our climb at Vx or Vy best angle of climb or best rate of climb in the pattern. If we
were going somewhere. If we were leaving the pattern, after we get through, you know 500 feet, or something like that 400 feet 500 feet, then we would accelerate you in route climb speed, which further tips the scales in terms of you would get more ground coverage than altitude. So if you're trying to get somewhere typically you want to do in route climb speed, but I know that's that's a whole nother can of worms, I suppose.
But it definitely I think is worth bringing up in this you know, you have VX which is more altitude over given distance, then you have V y which is more altitude over a given period of time. And then the opposite end of the spectrum of Vx best angle climbing of best or in route climbs speed V so if you're looking back at V speeds, you have v e n r echo November Romeo
enroute climb speed. And that would be kind of more of a shallower deck angle, she had better forward visibility, you have better engine cooling, you have better ground coverage, your not climbing as good be a better ground coverage. So if you're trying to get somewhere once you're kind of leaving the pattern gets through 500 feet 400 500 600 feet, you're going to shallow out again to enroute
climb speed Venr. And that's going to give you ground coverage to get where you're going while still climbing very well. That's more of a jet thing. But even if you look at a entry level trainer, they all still have the speed published. They're not they're not noted in that fashion. That's maybe that Venr and route climb speed is has come about later than the airplane was certified. But it's
still buried in there. If you look in all your manuals, I think even the even the 150 I'm trying to remember its been so long, I don't remember any of the climb speeds. But if I just kind of go back to my fallback of 65 miles an hour for best angle of clients 75 for best rate of climb, I bet it's probably 80 to 85 is your and route climate speed would be my guess probably 80 in that case. So you're still climbing pretty good. Go ahead.
I said I used to own a 150 and I don't remember any of the V speeds for the for the airplane, I can hop in one and fly im sure, I'm sure and be totally safe. But the exact v speeds I guess I don't remember, I just be doing it by feel
so and that's interesting. So you're just
¶ Do You Need To Memorize V Speeds?
saying so you're saying that you don't remember the speeds. And I agree with you that you'd be 100% safe, so much something that I that I kind of firmly believe I would say? How How much do we need to know the exact speed in your opinion,
in my opinion, on smaller aircraft, like cessnas for example, once you have enough experience in that type of aircraft, you can, you can go a lot on feel where that is not possible. On the larger aircraft, as I talked about in past episodes, because you don't have that feel at all, you have to fly the aircraft by the numbers because everything's being run by computers and hydraulics. And there's no backfeel in the yoke or the stick because the airplanes so
big. You just have to find the numbers where when you're flying a small plane, it's not as important if you are a inexperienced conservative pilot, because you have that feel you have that wind speed you know what the airplane sounds like at different speeds. You know if you know where I'm going at I still have if I can explain it.
I mean you're doing pretty good
eloquently.
What I when I'm Yeah, when I when I'm thinking what you're saying is I'm yeah, no, I sprung it on Yeah, um, when I when I'm thinking about what you're saying. I'm thinking more towards the low end. So you're talking about like low speed protection, like I'm not gonna stall and fall out of the out of the sky. That's kind of what you're talking about. Right?
Yeah. I'm not getting the max capability out of the aircraft, but I'm not going to, like I said, stall the aircraft or do something that's going to cause an issue. As long as I mean, you could argue that if you're going by feel and kind of winging it, and you have an engine failure at a critical point during takeoff, you probably would have been better off, nailing all the speeds perfect, and then being able to do that stuff. But in most situations, that's not
happening. So if you don't have some sort of emergency, and you're just going for a normal flight, and you're winging it, and you're going by feel on a small aircraft, but I feel like most of the times you can just get away with that.
And I'm telling you right now why you're exactly right is because on, you know, all these numbers that we commit to memory for you, we're going for our private pilot checkride. Let's say, all these numbers are coming in memory are at gross weight, maximum gross takeoff weight, if you so like, for example, Rob, you, perfect example. You could take off, you could do one lap and the pattern
and you come back into land. And you're worried about your stall speed as well, you're definitely not at gross, you're not a max takeoff weight, you already took off your burn fuel in the pattern. So how much do you weigh? Well, first off, you don't know. That's one that's one issue with light, small aircraft two you also don't know what that speed is. And probably, you don't even know how to calculate what that speed is. It's an easy mathematical thing. But did your instructor
teach you that? All these speeds are pretty much Published for gross weight, they had to have some baseline. And guess what? its gross weight. That's all they could go off of. They can't publish and give you every single number for every intermediate Weight, no, that's up to you. So you're 100% right. There's nothing wrong with maybe you know, using the seat of your pants and a light airplane, could you could not be more
correct. And that's where knowing your airplane is probably going to save you more often than not being able to regurgitate what the stall speed is to your examiner on your checkride. Although that's important for passing the checkride practically speaking, it gives you a baseline. Yes. But right now today, what do you weigh? Do you know what that number is? Do you know what that put that realistic? Today's baseline is? Most people I would probably say don't even know how
to calculate that. Let alone know what it is. And that's where knowing your plane seat of your pants flying good stick and rudder skills. Like you were just saying. That's where I think saves the day. But that's on the slow speed end. That's on the slow speed end. Yeah.
Like I said,
from a climb performance standpoint, I don't know if that I don't think that I don't think that holds true. On the on the climb performance standpoint. Those numbers matter, I think more.
Yeah, the V x v y, which we're doing this episode on, those are the most probably, I know for smaller airplanes, the more critical ones to understand, but on bigger airplanes is the same. I would assume so you've got more experience on that I
don't we don't, we don't we don't look at it, we don't want to call them v x, v y, we don't even really have a V y you know, um, we have basically our v two speed, and then we pretty much turn into a
V VFS or final segment. So we have segments of a climb, v1 to v2 the v2 to VFS final segment and then eventually and in route climb or a target speed different for manufacturers, they kind of come up with some of their own stuff, you know, whatever the engineers come up with really but it's, it's interesting, but for the most
¶ Do Large Airplanes Use Vx Vy?
part, we pretty much the terms we use like v2 is pretty much a best angle of climb speed. So that is a takeoff safety speed. If you were to look at v2 and you see v2, well you need to think about what what you are realistically thinking through your brain when you see v two that is takeoff safety speed, which is for a general aviation a smaller plane that is v x that is v x. So best angle of climb, we don't call it best angle of climb, you know look at it that
way. But that is essentially aerodynamically it is that performance value whatever best angle A climb is for that airplane. Um I would argue that that is the most important one that will keep you safe more. Rob, you've brought up you know, maybe the practically speaking when you're using an airplane to get somewhere best rate of climb is more valuable. I won't
disagree with you. But I think for the period of time that you're going to be V x transition To v y, and then transitioning to an in route, climb speed. As you transition through those, you're probably back to as long as you eventually get onto your enroute climb speed, once you are pointed towards your destination, or kind of in that general direction, I would say as long as you're following that stuff, you're probably pretty
much net zero. I've heard all kinds arguments like, yeah, it's a little airplane, you're not burning that much. And it doesn't cost that much all these things. I get that. You know, you're talking about 80 knots are 70 knots versus 80 knots, or 80 knots and 90 knots, I get that it's small numbers, small differences. But if you're trying to eke out every little bit of performance doesn't make a difference if you had like a stopwatch, probably probably does. Just depends on how like
kind of OCD. You want to be about it. Which me I want to be very OCD about it. It's fun to me.
Yeah. I have a a poignant question that I wrote down.
Okay,
that I could segue back into. I do want it. I don't want to hit a break and get some more beer. You are watching live? Leave a comment. I'm curious who's listening? Is this random people who just know who I am or know who Scott is? Lee's not on Facebook and generally doesn't know a lot of the same people, Scott and I know. So it mainly be Scott and I or I sent an email blast to actual audience who's interested in watching us live. So I'm just curious. I'll look at those when
I get back. That sound good. Maybe wait for Scott. I'll send him a text see an emergency he had to deal with. So we'll hopefully get him back on here.
¶ Beer Break
The joys of doing this live
some entertainment value? Yeah, this is the live component is not a not a polished thing. This is basically what we do when we record these and we're just live streaming it. So hope you like that. If not. Oh, well. Yeah. Let me hit the restroom. Grab another beer. And we'll be back.
I'm back. Yeah, I'm back. Some important to take care of.
That's good. Oh, catastrophe averted?
Yeah, that's good.
Glad to hear that.
Everything's where it should be.
That's, that's good.
All right. When everything falls into place, Scott
fell in the right place. If I waited by way too much longer, it wouldn't be in the right place.
It's good. It's good. You could take care of that out there. So we've debated Lee and I a little bit between taking off v y, or taking off and shooting for VX first and then eventually switching to Vy. What is what would be your guidance for that? Because you're basically you're saying
¶ Scott Is Back
takeoff best angle of climbs to get the most altitude while staying over the airport environment as possible, versus just going, going straight out superfast, climbing faster, but then you're getting further and further the way from the airport faster. What would be the transition? What would be the factors you'd be considering as far as when to switch from best
¶ Vx to Vy Transition
angle of climb to best rate of climb? Once you're doing that climb out? If that is your concern?
I would say great question a bunch of different considerations 100%. But by and large, what I would always kind of revert back to is knowing kind of the surrounding terrain like if you can, like I said before, when I've had students and they can kind of use their peripheral vision obviously your main focus should be maintaining kind of airspeed and heading on
coordination. On your said the term the term coordinator looking at your slip skid indicator, keeping the ball in the center, and now it's going to maximize your maximize your performance and some high performance airplanes have a lot of torque. So definitely progress on the rudder, keep
that ball in the center. But other than those, ease that peripheral vision, look out around it and you'll kind of know kind of what in general, what your big obstacles are, you know, that kind of the, what do I want to say kind of the like kind of the average terrain what that is just looking at kind of the side Yeah, there could be the one extreme tall mountain at the end of the runway and I get that and you need to know that obviously if that's your runway you're taking off from but look
at your average your nominal terrain that's around you off to the side and it's trees. You know, like it is around here. We're very flatland here in Ohio, in a lot of, you know, a lot of the East Coast is. So you know, if you're taking off in an airport where there's, you know, 80 foot tall trees all the way around the airport, well, that peripheral vision is probably going to serve you very, very
well. When you clear the 80 foot tall trees off to your left or off to your right, depending on which side of the airplane you're looking or seeing sitting on or whatever, you'll be able to have a good idea what's probably out in front of you as well. And again, when you transition from best angle to best rate, that doesn't mean you're in a hit what's in front of you, that just means you are sacrificing a little bit of climb gradient a little bit, we're talking a small percentage
of climb gradient. And so if you've done your best angle to, let's say, they're 80 foot tall trees, you've done your best client best rate of best angle of climb, I'm sorry, best angle of climb speed to 80 feet, you've cleared kind of the general terrain, then you've shallowed out a little bit, you've lowered that nose a little bit accelerated to your best rate of climb speed, you've probably, you know, sacrificed half a percent less than that of climb gradient. It's not much.
Remember, we are looking at like doom and gloom, it's gonna be a dark winner. You know, there's an obvious 100 foot tall obstacle to right at the end of the runway, you have to clear it. That's not likely, you know, so we're stretching these things
to the extreme. But yeah, I mean, best rate or best angle to, you know, the overall what you think is the overall height, or you know, of obstacles around the airport, if it's trees, which is probably most likely or in most places to that, and then shallow out to your best rate of climb speed. And that's super long winded. I don't know how to do an explanation other than long winded? I don't know, that kind of answered the question.
Yeah, I guess. I agree. It depends on your terrain. Because if you've got flat lands, like a bunch of cornfields that have been harvested already, on your departure, and say, in Ohio, for example, I don't see a whole lot of advantage on staying on best angle, because God forbid, the engine conks out, you've got, you know, makeshift runways all
over you. Where in that case, it'd be less advantageous, I feel like, versus if you're flying over terrain where it's not so great, and you'd like to make that airport best angle is probably gonna be better, maybe, like sin, that's, that's you got to have pilot skill to, to even do that to make that what, what they call it the impossible turn. And then also, you get to the point where you're not turning back and gliding to the
runway. Anyway, regardless, so I feel like at that point, the only reason if you're no longer able to, if you're far enough out where you're not gonna be able to glide back to the airport anyway. And there's, like, I don't see the advantage of staying on VX at that point as well. I think that'd be another determination factor of when you might as well just switch over to v y and get up higher faster.
Tell me what I guess. You raise good points which which, which gives me more to work on an example. So you're saying you're far enough away from the airport that you can't make it back almost pretty much no matter what you would have done no matter what skin the cat whichever way you want, you weren't going to make it back to the pieceof pavement you tookoff on. That's one of the things you're saying.
Yep.
How high? Were you when that happened?
I don't know.
Okay, so this comes back to a question. When do you start your turn on course, if you're if you are leaving the pattern, you're going somewhere you're not staying the pattern you're going somewhere destination. When you leave the pattern, when you make that first turn, leaving the pattern, which you know there's graphs in the aim that tell you kind of when you should. There's you know, in the transport category jet, we do things basically we started turn at 400
feet. There are some instructors is say that teach you 500 feet.
You start to turn at 400 feet in a jet?
¶ When Do You Turn On Course?
Yeah, that's terminal procedures. standards is you can start your turn at 500 feet basically 400 feet AGL So like let's say we're taking off out of, you know for us, Mansfield I don't know all these things back when I was even when I was flight instructing. I didn't know half of this stuff. So Mansfield says, you know you're clear for takeoff. What would you know turn right on
course. Okay clear for takeoff right on court right turn on course, whatever N number I didn't know when it turned you just make something up and hope they know yell at you. Well, you know now I recognize 400 feet. And honestly, if they give you a clearance like that, they're never gonna if you start turning early, they're probably never gonna yell at you. You're doing them a favor. By turning early, even though maybe unsafe. You're doing them a favor, like get going get out of here. Oh,
so if I make outerspace, more efficient, if I take off out of Berkeley in front, and they tell me, what would they say, you know, they take off. I'm heading back to here on they say, I'm taken off to the let's say I takeing off to the east. So I gotta turn it back around. What would they say? Yeah.
So they'd say, you know Cessna, so and so.
Two, three Sierra
fly runway heading. Well, yeah, I didn't want to go throwing that out there, though. But, yeah, I mean, obviously, I need to know the first two numbers. Okay. So cessna two, you already said it cessna 23. Sierra fly runway heading runway? Six. Right, clear for takeoff. And you're gonna say back, you know, clear for takeoff, six, right runway, heading six, two threes here. And you do your thing. So they said runway heading in that
case? So obviously, what do you do you fly runway heading, which is probably like, a 058 or 059 or 061. It's like up to a half degree their side, you know, so the runway number is up to a half degree their side for the most part. If it gets more than that, they should be that like the next year, whenever they kind of do their audits, they should be re numbering the runway. So yeah, it should be within a half degree. So 058, you know, 059060. So this is runway six, right? It's a pair
of two parallel runways. So they said fly runway headings, that's how you're going to do. But if they say, you know, two, three, Sierra, turn, you know, left on course, which is what they would do if you're taking off to the east in this case, turn left on course. Six right cleared for takeoff. So obviously, it's right back to them. Six, right. Clear for takeoff? Well, you probably Honestly, I know, knowing me, I would probably forget what they even said,
right,
I'll know what they meant. But to say it back to them, I probably would forget all that. We had one just the other day. I mean, another guy his previous airline as well. I even knew him at the airlines we were based were different airlines have based same same hub. And he's pretty experienced experience. I'm, you know, I'm fairly experienced as well. And they told us they give some taxi instructions, and we kind of
screwed that up. Honestly, to be honest with you, we talked about it, we were kind of like, whatever we know, they weren't really clear on us, we're gonna do what we want, if they yell at us. So what. So there's, there's different ways that can happen to but so if you remember, if you remember, don't remember, that's kind of to say it back. That's one thing. But if you don't remember to do what they said, that might might be a
different set of issues. So in this case, they said, two threes sierra, left, turn left on course, six, right clear for takeoff. So they're expecting you to obviously make this out of out of 400 feet, make this left hand turn
five to 400 feet, make a standard left hand turn back to my heading
yet back to whatever you're on course headline would be from from the completion of that left hand turn. So once you got you know, I don't want to say 180 degrees around because that would be you know, slightly off course. But when you got you know, 100 degrees more than 90 if you had a GPS onboard redirect. So if you had a program your GPS through the 90 degrees, you're more than 90 degrees to turn around, going back to where your
where your destination is. Hit the direct button or redirect or all the whatever these things are direct Enter Enter is often the case, repaint that line, that straight line and then turn to that heading and that that that's what they're expecting you to do. Now, if you are in a ga airplane in a Cessna 150 Scott, for example. If you are comfortable turning at 200 feet 300 feet, they're never going to say anything for you say say
anything to you about that. You are doing them a favor by getting a course earlier.
Is that legal?
Well, if Well, in the AIM, its regulatory in nature, there are, you know, statements like, you know, climb through, you know, 700 feet or, you know, within 300 feet of pattern altitude. There's
a lot of stuff like the aim is just suggestions.
Well, yeah, but it's regulatory in nature. If it's published,
nobody really cares.
Well, well, yeah. Right. And of course, you're always going on. on that. I try to fly as though I have an FAA inspector on my airplane all the time.
Ha thats lame.
Well, it is. And I hear that a lot. So it and that's been one of the biggest. That's been one of the biggest issues I've had transitioning from 121 scheduled operation to part 135 on is I I'm not really good at sifting through like regulation be like, yeah, this is important. This isn't this is important. This isn't. So I try to follow all of them as best I can. Which can be distracting, honestly. So I would say if you can climb out, and this is another thing, what is what is
the 150? What's the what is your best rate of climb speed? What will that yield you? vertical feet for per minute. Do you know
in a Cessna 150
Yeah.
Oh, I was I was always happy
depends on
300 feet a minute.
depends on the temperature that you know,
of course, of course.
It's a nice cool day. Oh, me
out of number. You're getting crazy. Throwing a number. I don't know who looked to 300
foot a minute.
He said to 300 feet him?
Yeah, I can get better than that. But I yeah,
I would say that's pretty pretty. That's pretty bad. Rob,
that's it to 300 foot is like if I got a passenger in full fuel on a hot day. But if I'm by myself on a
¶ Cessna 150 Climb Performance
cold day, I mean, I can probably get seven. Maybe? I don't know. I guess I don't.
I would. I would doubt that. I would doubt you'll get 700 feet a minute, but I don't know. Maybe
well, probably not. Seven, maybe maybe five or six though?
Yeah, five or six? For sure. I would think with that climb prop and stuff like that. Yeah. we get 600.
On a cool day. Yeah. On what? in years? 150?
Yeah, no.
Yeah. So it's, it's a cold, but cold days now in a client? Half tank of fuel. And just me. I mean, I feel like I could get five to seven. Somewhere in there.
I just so yeah.
Yeah,
totally.
I don't know, I don't pay attention to that gauge enough. As much as I should. So
no, no, no, don't I would say don't pay attention to I'd go the other way.
I mean, I should
don't Well, I should
look at it once in a while. Why, what it doesn't tell
you anything. Until you know,
I guess. But you know,
I should I should know nothing that's gonna save your life.
I should know that number better. But yeah, if it's up, if it's a hot day, and I got a passenger, full fuel, whatever out of here. You know, it's, it's gonna be two to 300 foot. That's all you're gonna get.
That's not enough. That's not enough for me.
Well,
I bet I mean, I've been there. But that's that's just not enough. I mean, even a fly land around here. It just tells me how quickly it will unravel. If that engine fails. Now, granted, I won't know how bad it is. And till I've taken off, I don't know what that vertical feet per minute will be. Right? So if the book tells me, Hey, you can take off in this amount of feet. And clear this obstacle, if it tells me all those things will be satisfied. The book says we're
good. So I'll go take off. That may yield me a very low fee per minute that I wasn't anticipating, which I will not be happy with. But I won't know it until I'm actually doing it. So yes, I was a little hypocritical of me. But, you know, I like I know I've taken off in the cub. And then we've been, you know, 100 100 to 200 feet per minute. It's terrible. It's got 65 horsepower. Oh, but I you know, doesn't mean I need to be happy, but it just means like, okay, at that temperature
at that weight. Let's not do that again. If I didn't like it, you know? So, yeah,
know your numbers. Know your situation.
Yeah, and know your airplane. And that's the one thing that you're talking about, Rob is if it's it's hard to you can know all the numbers you want. But if you're trying to land in whatever, knowing your airplane, having that that seat your pants feeling you're in tune with the airplane. There's very little knowledge that that can replace that, that intuition and that you're in that groove, you know, you're wearing the airplane. I mean, just ask any bush pilot, that's
what they do. That's why not, that there arnt better airplanes that can maybe go some of these places, the airplanes that are chosen are, you know, engineered in such a way that they are, that they're basically wearable to these pilots flying them? They're very direct connect, they have good, they have good
¶ Stick and Rudder vs. Vspeeds
feedback in terms of where is the stall? How close Am I to the stall, and these guys, you know, they have 1000s of hours in one airplane. Not one type of airplane, maybe even, they have 1000s of hours in one airplane, like one serial number airplane. And so they're in tune with every idiosyncrasy of that airplane. And they can just wear it in that allows them that I guess that concept, there can't be understated. What that allows them to do where they can stick that airplane. In terms of very
short field. You know, we're talking about the other end, which is the takeoff performance, which I don't think it is as easy to seat of your pants. I don't think it just takes it takes time. But like, if you were to go ask somebody super in tune with their Super Cub, like a hard number, like, hey, how many feet? How high? Will you be at the end of the runway? I don't know. But I would assume they're not gonna be able to say, Oh, I'm gonna be
110 to 130 feet high. I don't think they're able to do that for you. I don't know. But I've been in? I wouldn't think so. I've been in some short field type operations where you're flying the same airplane a lot, like 30-40 landings in a day. So you're very in tune with the performance, that airplane, all different weight ranges, all different CG configurations, semi different temperatures, and you get in tune with the airplane. But could I ever tell
you? Yeah, I'll be, you know, within, you know, 20 feet of how I'm going to be at the end of the runway? No, never. But I don't know, I'm not saying there are people that can do that. But I think it's unrealistic. Maybe.
That's how I know. That's, that's why I always find it. Found it like I'm a certified flight instructor, but I never actually flight instructor. I've no desire to physically teach people how to fly. I'd like to do it over the internet at some point. But just because I just know how to do it. I know how it feels. I know what to do. Scott, I had a great instructor Don Mather, it was. I don't know how to pass that on. You know how like that. Just that intuition of back to what you said with
wearing the airplane. You do you just
get a feel for
a good pilot. I feel like you wear that airplane. And I've used this at work before because I work in yachting. And I'm not I'm not particularly a big fan of attached heights. Yeah. Yeah, for I think I got the term attached hides from you, Scott. Because you Yeah, you're saying that all the philosophia I wondered, yeah,
got that for me, because I used to use that all the time.
Yeah, I think I got the term attached ties to you. I'm not a fan of attached heights, I get uneasy, and although I'll have a harness on and I'll climb up to like the mast of the yacht, where all the SAT domes are and you you got to be clipped in because if you fall off, you're screwed. Because it's so high up there. It's not really designed for people to be up there. And it's very uneasy, because you're, you know, 100 feet up off of the
water sometimes. And if you've, you know, you fall or slip or something, you're like, you're gonna hit some fiberglass deck on your way to the ocean on your way down. And even though I'm clipped in, it's like, oh, this is not, you know, that easy. And then I'll be, you know, at this, this height of the mast, I know I'm like, oh 75 feet off of the ocean. You know, these are pretty tall, and, like 100 feet.
And, like, I will think to myself, okay, if I was on like an approach to landing or taking off, it's like in an airplane that I'm familiar with as a pilot, like this height wouldn't bother me at all. I'd be loving it.
I don't know. I'm the same way to you.
You do wear the aircraft.
When I'm coming in for for an approach like, that's my most comfortable point. Really. like climbing out and even in like cruise altitude. It's not that I'm uncomfortable. It's just like, once I know that I have that runway made. I'm completely comfortable. Yeah. It's like I don't know, even though I don't know, even though that's, that's where most people go wrong is on landing. This. Once I know I have that runway made. I'm completely relaxed.
Yeah, I'm the same way.
Yeah, but remember, you guys are talking from a perspective that a lot of people don't really even have,
¶ Having The Runway "Made"
they could have been flying for decades before you guys were even born before any of us were born. And they don't necessarily ever or have ever felt. The sensation you are talking about right now, which is I have the runway made. Does that make any sense? Like they're feeling every pilot should know what they should or shouldn't as a totally different concept. There are people that don't, they
don't get that concept. All they know is this power setting this airspeed, this flap setting, I'm gonna point at that spot on the runway I'm landing on. If that engine fails 200 feet above the ground. They may not make the threshold. You know what I'm saying? Does that make any
sense? There are people flying high performance single engine airplanes Cirrus is a moonies Bonanzas that do this, you know, drag it in, you know, lawn darts type concept, keep it pointed at, you know, the threshold of the runway, and hope nothing goes wrong, and probably nothing ever will. But they go on that hope. And they don't really think about the repercussions or think the repercussions are so remote, that it will never happen to them. They don't know
what you're talking about. And I know you guys were kind of talking more in general terms. I have the runway made when I think of have the runway made means if the engine fails right now. I'm golden. I'm good. I got that. Right. I mean, it'll probably I can if I can continue this approach, like normal when the engine is running or not.
If I'm on Final, and I'm at 100 feet, like, I have the runway made, there's still there's never a point where I'm at 100 feet, or I don't have no I made
it in so I hear you. That's probably true in everything at 100 feet.
I mean, rock gonna say that's forever landing I've ever made maybe,
I mean, there may have 100 feet is pretty low
ball. Right? But I would imagine Yeah,
I bet 99.9% of the
landlines you've ever made? Yeah, 100 feet I haven't made.
I mean, I can't even imagine a position you have to be in
Cairo for me. Like, when I first started flying landings made me more nervous than takeoff. But now that I'm more experienced, I realized that takeoff so far more dangerous than landings. Because if you have a if you have an issue on takeoff, you're kind of screwed.
On a calm wind day,
if you're past the point of no return on a column one day.
Well, yeah, on a mean, if everything is if everything
is when you shouldn't be flying anyway.
Well, that may be true, but I'm just saying if you have a if you have a calm wind takeoff a calm wind takeoff is basically as dangerous as a 29 direct crosswind takeoff, because you're worried about that engine failing or whatever the air directional control issues, whatever. But coming into land with a 20, 30, 40 knot crosswind is vastly different than a zero knot crosswind or zero knot wind. Well, yeah, yeah. I agree with you. I'm not going
to fly and when that I would have a hard time landing in
if I feel like but remember people don't find their limitations till it's already like Well, yeah, shit I took off now I gotta get this thing down.
Yeah, that's true. But on take off. If I have a power failure, I'm in trouble on landing if I have a power failure, it's probably not gonna be a problem. And most of you Well,
that's why I brought that point up.
Most of your mechanical issues are going to be power failure, not something else.
Yeah, and that's why I brought that point up though is a lot of people don't can't really identify with your guys's statement of you know, having the runway made. A lot of people don't. They don't realize how close they are to the edge. And they maybe never will until like maybe instructor comes in bust their chops a little bit. Flight review and says, hey, yeah, you're doing this, you know, fast, shallow approach to the runway, which I get is nice
and stabilized. And it's kind of jet like and keeps their kind of their speed up. So they're being efficient in the airplane, I get all that, trust me, I get it. That's what I do every day, I
guess it's windy on a single inch
do that. We're not talking about that I'm talking about a no wind day, we can throw those things in. But there are people find a Mooney, on a super shallow, super fast, you know, to the runway, and if an engine were to fail on a half mile quarter mile final, they're still not gonna make the runway. That's nuts. I mean, I get what
they're doing. Yeah, because like on an instrument approach, you don't have really a choice, you're gonna fly a nice stabilized probably pretty flat approach, which may not allow you to breach the runway, if an engine were to fail in, I get that I get that on an instrument approach the weather's down a minimum as you want to you you, you're up there, you're already going, you don't have a choice, you have to get down eventually. With fuels in consideration, all
kinds of stuff. But if you're just if it's a VFR visual flight rules day, you can see out the window, no problem, it's clear in a million out, why are you what I would call it, dragging it in to a runway that you need to know what your opponent's capable of doing both through nice stabilized approach, can
that be can I serve you? Well, 100%, you're going somewhere new, you're going somewhere night, you're going somewhere short, short, you know, basically, at the limits of the performance, your airplane, those concepts all work. And that makes sense to me to know your airplane well enough, and to exercise those skills from you. And that performance from your airplane? Get it loud and clear. I agree with that. But should you also know like you're saying, Scott, is you're coming
in to land somewhere? Should you be able to make the runway? I would on a visual day? Yeah. Have I always been in a position? No. It depends on where you're at? No, absolutely. All right. And, and but did you try? Or did you actively not try?
Well, if I'm trying power, if I'm actively trying to be in a position where I'm making sure that I don't have to add power, I can do that every time if I'm just casually going about a landing and a nice day. And I'm not really focused on that. I might end up being a little low and have to add power. But
and that's fine. Because you had power to add. You had you know, you had those you that was available to you. What people need to understand is they need to know how their aircraft will behave on a variety of conditions. With a power failure. That's my perspective. Yeah.
Just play into the like the stabilized approach versus unstabilized. approach. Yes. That's what Yeah, like this whole discussion has been about, yeah, you're talking about low so low at the low end dart approach you're talking about would be a lot of people would call that a stabilized approach versus what Scott's talking about where you can once you have the runway made, if you have an engine failure, you can bring it in that would in a lot of definitions, be considered unstabilized approach?
Yes. Could 100% I have nothing to add on what you just said? That is exactly the Rift and what we're talking about, there's two different schools of thought. Yeah, and there's a place for both.
I probably do an episode on stabilized approaches versus unstabilized approaches, in and of itself at some point. We are Yeah, that's have
we talked about VX versus Vy enough. Have we? Do we have that or where are we at?
I believe so.
Okay,
I had a lot of beers,
you want to clear an obstical. Okay, I'm just going to try and sum up as best I can. I know you guys will cover my tracks I miss step a little bit. Vx best angle of climb, that is going to give you the most amount of altitude in a given distance. So if you have an obstacle to clear, that is going to give you the best chances for clearing that obstacle. So think that that is typically going to be a slower airspeed for you, and also a slower vertical speed so your
¶ Vx & Vy Summary
indication is going to be lower too. So your rate of climb will be slower, but your airspeed, slower, which means if your airspeed slower, your ground speed slower which means it will take you longer longer to get to that obstacle. Even though you're climbing slower, it is disproportionate, it will take you longer to get there. Thus, you can climb slower, a slower rate of climb, which will still yield a greater margin overtop of that obstacle if that makes any sense at all. Did that make sense?
Yeah. made sense to me.
You can, you're traveling slower but you're climbing slower, but since it will take you longer to get there, your margin will be the best possible for clearing that obstacle. Rate of climb best rate of climb v y is going to yield you the best amount of altitude gain in a given period of time set your stopwatch climb, and in 10 minutes you will have gained the most altitude over any other airspeed. So it is it is aerodynamically it is the same aerodynamic equation as the best
glide speed. So it is the most lift for the least amount of drag. If that makes any sense that is all Vy is the most lift for the least amount of drag.
That sounds like a good summary and before? No. Oh, all right. Before we wrap it up, I want to I had a question for if you do it's talked a lot about like engine failure on takeoff or landing. Best glide speed is vx or vy? What is the best glide speed typically? How does that relate?
v y,
o u ga?
Yes, d y d y That's
right. The wise the best glide speed.
So you take your plane manual, if you want to know your airplane, which if you know the manual, that means you pretty much know your airplane, that's kind of the way we have in the airlines. That's the way we've always kind of characterized it. If you know your emergency procedures, you know your airplane. So one thing if you take your 172 as the quintessential trainer, your final approach speed, guess what that's like within five knots of your best angle of climb speed.
Look at your best, your best glide speed, well, that's within
¶ Best Glide Speed
five knots of your best rate of climb speed. It's the same aerodynamic equation just inverted, one is going to give you a steep, a steep and slow gradient to your landing, that's going to be your best angle of climb speed. Because that's going to be a steep gradient, that's going to be your your
final approach speed. Then if you look at your best glide speed, that's going to be the most you know the most distance for it depends on what are you climbing or you descending, I guess so I should have said that. But your best glide speed and your best rate of climb speed are the same. They're like
within five knots 10 knots. And the only reason they're that far apart is because you have some propwash one is assuming you have some propwash going over top of your wings in your control surfaces to create any you know, additional lift in a jet, the same exact speed. Because you don't have any, like airflow going, you know, propeller or whatever induced airflow coming across your airfoil creating artificial
lift. So if you know those speeds, you can look and then oh, my final approach, if I know my best angle, climb speed, that's basically always going to be your final approach speed. If you know your best rate of climb speed, that is always going to be your best glide speed in a you know in in, in airplanes, plus or minus, you know, a little bit of fudge factor. But you can be reasonably sure. Like if you're caught with your pants down and you're out there and it
happens to you. Okay, what is this speed you can memorize either speed and know what it should give you. You have to know the concepts behind it. This has to be beyond rote memory or if and I can help you any yes check ride. This is real life and emergency popped up. What are you going to use? And that's the way your instructor should convey it to you. But, but if you know these numbers, you can see how versatile they
are. Because the same aerodynamic equation, just ones used for landing or descending and once used for climbing. I don't know if you guys knew that or thought about it that way. But
no, it's good. I never went into it. That thought process but uh, yeah, it's good summary. You guys have anything else to wrap this up probably for the Edit
about does it?
Yeah, I think I'm good, I guess. Yeah.
We'd like some email feedback. This one actually helpful or not to v x v y. We're trying to try to gauge the audience gauge the direction we take things on this program for the 2021 season here. And email is our preferred method of communication. My email is faraim@RobertBerger.com. spelled BERGER the German way, not the sandwich way. Mr. Griffin is faraim@LeeGriffing.com GRIFFING and Mr. Bores, which is the official complaint email of the FAR AIM podcast program is
¶ Outro
faraim@ScottBores.com BORES. Yeah, this is a as I said, we've been doing this live this time we did it on Facebook, I don't think we're trying to do it on Twitch and won't play around with YouTube a little bit. And some other stuff. The best way to know when we're recording live where we're recording live, is to sign up for the email list I have which is at RobertBerger.com/live, just go to Robert Berger calm and the homepage, click on the live link. It'll give you the email
signup there. And that will basically I try to give as much notice as possible. This particular episode, I gave almost no notice. Because we had no idea how the software was gonna work. We're mainly trying to work on the software. And we're still learning but this will probably evolve, this will evolve as 2021 progresses through. And we get better and better at this this newly added component to the program. We are not as tech savvy as we once
were. For all you, millennials, our analytics show, look, the younger ones, the 20 somethings out there that are analog show, listen to the program, you will become our age. And as much as you don't think it now, technology will start to confuse you. That should be one of the biggest takeaways of this episode. is a pro viewer if you're if you're in your early 20s. And you're you're pretty cocky about being good with the technology. Yeah, just wait a decade
they'll be behind. Yeah.
Yeah, you don't understand you feel like you're you feel like your, your your mom or something or your parents how they're like, I don't understand how this works. Yeah. That is right around the corner for you. All right.
So something looking forward to you.
So look forward to that. Be nice to the older technology impaired, like we're starting to become, but we will we will figure this out. It'll be good to go. And yeah, let's like I said, check it out live. I don't know exactly how to look at the numbers from my side to see how many people are watching. I get the gist. It wasn't a ton of people this time. But yeah,
we'll get better.
Yeah, no, no, yeah, that's it. That is a big factors. I didn't know notice on the email blasts, it's I'm assuming primarily Scott and I's drunk buddies who have nothing better to do on the Saturday night who are just saw pop up on Facebook. That we're doing this, but yeah, maybe I'm wrong. Not so shoot us an email. But yeah, that's looking forward to the 2021 season. And yeah, that's a wrap on this one. Again, let us know what you think about can we cover this decently or not? I'm
not sure I had enough beers. Or I'm not sure if this went right or not, but we're gonna shoot for it anyway. Yeah. Thanks for listening. Take care, everyone. Thanks. I'm still now that we're kind of in this interlude between the show I got a I got a good question Lee to bring us back in the actual episode, but like I said, I'm trying to figure out how the software works. It looks like there's two people watching. I'm trying. Oh,
trying to see if that's like the cocoa be watching is probably slushy. You know, I'm just saying it's could be I don't know. Possible. You might be sleeping right now, but I don't know.
Yeah.
We don't know who's watching this
is probably my wife and your sister.
¶ BS That Was Cut From Main Episode
Probably Yeah. me or my wife. I don't know I could My
face is true.
Oh, I'm just trying to say before we go back into the episode last time, Rob
Oh, oh, you guys can hear me.
You guys hear me? I can see you now. Can you hear me Scott I could see you for like 15 minutes
of loading another
another page whenever
oh yeah you're on the same station Rob
I am I'm loading other stuff to try to get more info yeah probably why I gotta get I want to upgrade my internet connection for this live stuff
guy I can't see you I will see you since you left.
I see I've been seeing Scott a little bit I see Scott now.
No I got no i can i can see everybody I see everybody
comes Scott goes in and out.
my inernets fast
you got rippin internet scott
Yeah, I have I have Cox I'm waiting for that.
Yeah.
Cox's Griffin I'm telling you.
You like that like I like that Robin Cox. Yeah, I do. I really like the rapid Cox.
I love the Cox.
It is.
I mean compared to at&t, I mean this this Cox is just
so you love Cox basically.
I do love Cox. That's good. I'm afraid I'm not free to say I've never tried Cox.
So I don't. You're missing out. Yeah. You're missing out on the Cox. Yes. Yeah, it just doesn't sound that good.
All right. On that note for roll back,
I waited for starlink starlink to come out.
Do you know what that'll give you like over what you're getting now?
It's supposed to be like ridiculously fast.
Is it still like um, it's in like the I mean, it's like a ground liners or like satellite.
It's, it's straight from this satellites. Like, straight from satellites to house. Oh, I got the comment. Lee's wife just said should I be concerned it was delayed by leads. Yeah. Yeah. Lee just loves that.
I brought up that she might be watching. Yeah. She should be concerned as for other results, probably. While that changes everything else
not not go down that path and live recording. Back to the show. I can cut this in and post somewhere.
Natty's not as good. It's cheaper than bush light. But it's more watery. There's no flavor.
They also sit Yeah, they said has like zero flavor.
Yeah. It's cheaper than bush. Like it's like a dialect of flavor of beer. Yeah, it's like $1 50 cheaper. So I'll pay the extra dollar 50 for have a beer taste. Yeah,
yeah, I always maintain bush lays the best for the money.
If you just want to get drunk for cheap and you don't really care what it tastes like, then you might as well get Milwaukee's best ice and just drink that.
I've never had that either.
It's terrible. But it's like six and a half percent. And you can buy it. Most places don't have a 36 and
a half percent.
Yeah, it's either six or six and a half. It's not it's it's high. And you can get a 30 raise. You get a 30 pack for like 15 bucks. Mostly do
it mostly. That's all you're going after most
places don't sell it. But I think Walmart does actually
done surprise. Yeah.
I think the last place I saw it was Walmart.
I'm sure that's where a lot of stimulus checks why.
Yeah. Marty used to get it. He did the math on it. It was the most alcohol per dollar that you could get as far as beer goes.
Oh, I'm sure yeah. Yeah. 6% for 15 bucks for a pack. Okay, what's the look like, Robert?
I have no idea.
It might be more expensive now, but that's what it was back then. I don't know. It was like $3 cheaper than bush light or $4 cheaper. I don't remember.
I don't think we're live yet.
I'll check my Facebook and see if it says Robert Berger is live.
Scott's Internet's gonna crash and he tries to stream and load the stream at the same time.
Bye bye, Scott. No, it doesn't say anything about you being live.
All right. I don't think we are. We might be now. I'm not sure.
I saw posts from the new owner of high fives. They want people comment, priorities comment and share their favorite memory from life. Oh your life Bob. Am I
yeah, you need you are too.
Oh shit. on live it. Oh god, no. Stop. Why are we on? Why are we live? cuz I've been trying to get the push through.
That's the point. Scott. Come on.
I've been trying. I've literally been trying to push it through.
I don't want to be on live Facebook. That's why I said stop talking politics. I don't think anyone's watching this. Yeah, but they can watch it later. Right? doesn't go
unless I had the settings wrong. I don't plan on leaving anything up.
Okay, good. So this is shows fine. Does it show if anybody's watching
I have no idea how to run anything. any of this. I have in there if you can see a say something, but I don't know where that would come up. What are we listening to?
The conversation? Are you watching it on Facebook?
Wow, we are so cool. That I don't even have Facebook.
Yeah, I don't know how any of this is.
My camera is so good.
It is. You finally see yourself.
Yeah. That is a really good really good webcam. I got I just froze up. Look. He's smiling ever.
Nope. That's your end. That's your end. Oh,
I still see him good. Oh,
he's just smiling into the microphone. No.
I still am. I still am at your Mir space station that.
Hey, it said my internet was fast. When I did.
Yeah, that's a lie.
Well, for that nanosecond. riverside.fm doesn't lie.
Yeah, right.
You're still frozen. He's not frozen. I see him perfectly fine. Now he's probably
is just drinking his beer right now.
It's no is that your internet? He's just smiling. It's kind of creepy. Stop smiling. Let's getting Oh, there we go. That's better.
Oh, thanks. Welcome back to the 21st century. Scott.
You were just like smiling at the microphone. It's kind of weird.
Shit eating grin here.
Yeah. So Alright, so
where do we go from here our fearless leader?
Um, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out how the software works still.
Okay.
I feel like an old I feel like an old person. I now Wish I now know what it's like. All of those people.
We should have gone under a lot of moving parts.
We should have gone on Twitch not Facebook. I don't want to be on Facebook.
TWITCH wouldn't work. Yeah,
that's what you tried. That was the default plan. I
know. But Facebook's terrible.
Well, salt well.
Yeah, Facebook's gonna take it down.
Guys are seemingly very entertaining while I tech shoot, troubleshoot.
Well, well,
I can talk about I can talk about the topic at hand about how it's gotten. I'll go Facebook sucks. No, do not do that. How about we How about we
how do we not get into that? aviation show? Oh, yeah,
that's right. I forgot. Okay,
so if I may, Robert. Yes. While you're okay. I think the topic we're planning is for people learning to fly there is a airspeed values which we've covered in a previous episode. One of which in these are you need to pretty much commit these to memory for the aircraft you're flying. One is v x, and one is v y. And those characters stand for best angle of climb. So you see it as VX
that's how you write it out. But how it kind of how you say it is best angle That would be VX or v y, which would be best rate. That's how you would verbally say it to somebody. And so
older and I know we call you want VX. Yes. If you're just trying to get y if you're trying to get somewhere you want v y. Well, I still have like, worse. Intro the show though. Like,
yeah, well, you were troubleshooting. I want to get some educational content.
Oh, I don't think anyone watching is,
is actually while it doesn't tell you how many people are watching.
I don't know. I I don't know if anyone's watching. Okay, I can't figure out how this works. I just I just don't want you to be, you know, saying good info. And then you get it all out. during a time where we're not even gonna be putting it in the app. I'm
never giving good info
when oka Scott will ask. Sometimes poignant questions, and then that's it. He's not going to rehash them once. He knows.
No. So I'm actually myself.
It's got you. You have Facebook on your phone. Right? You can look this up. Yeah. Is it? Is it work it? Can you mute to mute your phone? Or else we're just going to hear back
and you can turn the volume down.
And then see if it's working. It's probably just Brian ocho watching. It would be my guess, by himself. This he likes airplanes, even though he's afraid to fly.
It's working.
Okay, so it's going through? Yeah. All right. Okay, so send it. So we're doing v x v y.
Yep.
We Is there a part of the AIM? We can reference? Are we just making another one that's not in our title?
Ah, yeah, I think it's another one. I mean, we've covered the we I mean, the V speeds are in there. I think it's under definitions. I'll tell you in a second.
I can't really make a an episode title out of the the definition section can I?
Well, it AIM 1.1. But I think I'm just I want to make sure. Yes, in the definitions. So. I mean, we've already made that an episode, though, honestly, about what we're like, we've already made like the V speeds and episode. So it'd probably be more like a takeoff performance section, which, you know, can apply in a 135. Like, if you're talking to a Super Cub, or something like that, or like flying the islands and an archer. Or flying charging, you know, you're doing a practical, you know, a
practical test. But how to reference a reg specifically, it'd be like a super watered down sub category of a reg. Like you're to demonstrate a short field takeoff landing on checkride. Okay. I'm just kidding. We geared that way, right? I mean, for somebody going to take a checkride you know, or, you know, learning, you know, not one, I don't think 135 is the place to go for this.
Now. No, I don't think we have a lot of 135 operators listening to the program yet.
No.
Could be
just just Well, I would think probably more pertinent even if it is the age it's the age old question. Okay, why am I climate VX versus VY? I think that's what we're trying to address. It's hard to find a rig
that works with that. The only time you want to use VX is when you're trying to get over an obstacle, right?
Yes. Which is in Okay, so you're right. That's the way you want to look at it, you know, not an archer a 150 whatever. That's the way we look at every every climb we do in a jet is best ankle. Yeah. So you don't you know, I mean, you don't look at it in those terms. You don't look at VX v y in those terms, but our takeoffs are a VX climb.
So everything's VX.
Why? Because, well, because no, it's not. It's not those terms. But that is essentially performance wise.
That's what it is. Is Is it because Alright, so let me
let the intro and the intro let me intro and then we can start like an episode. This is too much conversation we're gonna lose.
That makes me nine you rob go ahead and I know
all the pressures on guys Brian's
past my bedtime, so
I go it'd be texting us though. If
he was. There's probably a lot of people watching Probably yeah 1000s
I would assume so probably Yeah, we're to several non technically inclined even realize it's not quite see other life. People, they can see how many people they fall. Yeah,
I feel like it should tell you on your end, since you're the one that's hosting it. It should tell you how many people are watching.
I'm sure it sure does.
Or maybe it's maybe it's zero so there's no number.
Yeah, a minute.
That doesn't pop up until there's a one.
Yeah. Well, let me go let me go on there and watch it and see if see if a number pops up.
Oh, people are watching. Oh, my sister. I was
only Haley. I was going to say you guys looks over until Lee took a drink with me she was worse. Yes. And we feel
so I'm working on that though. Oh, Rob's getting after it. There you go. Here we go. 123 It's like the I've been getting a whole wave.
Oh, no, I know people are watching. I'm gonna have to drink a bunch more.
Yeah, you're gonna have to
Okay.
All right. How do I how this is a season premiere for 2021 we I gotta like say something. Trying to get my headspace. How did the intro
Take your time but we're here for you guys
want to do the intro? You get we start a new leaf. This year. No, no, done.
Fine. I'll do welcome to the FAR AIM podcast. Here we are. What are we gonna talk about? Oh, my God was I'll do it. Okay.
I'll do it. Better than the other ones you've done which is none. So
yeah, cuz I don't do those
things. Right. Who's Who is it was very good.
who's running a dish disposal? Here? Scott
that you heard it? But it was not me. That's not me.
Okay, disposal.
Something's loud.
Yeah, like somebody's electric can opener.
Yeah.
Yeah, Scott. What was that what he's doing well wasn't running a paper shredder?
I don't, I don't heat my office because I'm never in here. So I said I'm gonna space here. Fine. I'll sit in the cold. Sit in the cold.
I don't want that on your audio track. Bring some hand warmers. Do some hand warmers just.
It's not that cold, but it's usually about 5-10 degrees cooler in here that has less the house because Oh, man. That's a good story.
I wish we were on Twitch.
I don't want to be a face.
I'm gonna finish. I'm gonna finish this beer. Hit the restroom. Grab another beer. And then do the intro.
Might as well grab two or three. I wanted to be cold Scott. That's why you get a bucket with ice.
cooler.
Yeah, yeah, I don't have
I don't have such luxuries here.
This
it's you can tell what that is. Dude. So what is that? It's an ice bucket. Like it's all from a hotel.
No, it's like a mixer. It's like a mixing pot.
stole it from the Ramada in Sandusky No,
it's not a bad idea but this mixing bowl
All right, you guys can entertain
up all the while Halle? Yeah, yeah.
How is watching you guys. Entertain Holly while I'm gone? It's great. Oh,
hi, Holly.
She's not entertained. She has left the room so long. She by left
Yeah, spire signed off. Nobody's entertained. I see. Bob has Ohio and Florida hanging on his wall back there.
Yeah, right above his air conditioner.
That's cool. That's pretty sweet.
I didn't know what to expect him to the live thing. So this is real.
I don't like being on Facebook. I don't want people to see me.
Oh, no. Well, this I am sure that's the last resort for him too. Yeah. Yeah. Man, this might be my last beer for tonight.
That's kind of gay.
Well, Ben Asher for a while.
Pretty switching the whiskey.
No, no, just I guess
Rob's gone.
Oh, yeah, you better get it in now. Don't let the Nazi
Nazi get this room heated up. Maybe he won't notice that when he gets back.
We have because he won't be here.
Right? It'll be there. It'll just be there. Yeah, he's not gonna
know Man
What are you been drinking this beer?
Yeah, I just started with some Sam Adams winter loggers and then switch to Miller Lite. I don't know why I haven't had that many. I've had like six of them in the last since four. So it's not not really a lot but I'm feeling it anyhow. Whatever.
Alright, I got a fresh beer. Me to re roll this VX. What is we'll call it what is VX and V y what's
better v x, v y? Whatever you want. What?
I'm just sorry, I'm trying to think of the title and then it makes us look professional when I say enjoy
it better. Oh, yes, or v y. x is better.
I would agree with you. It's pretty much always safer to use VX but
yes. Let him do the intro, Scott. Look. Yeah,
let's try to keep some content in the actual episode.
Should I repeat all of my great ideas and comments? Yes,
you're great commentary.
Keep that make notes. Well, now your sister is gonna have to listen to I'm just
not gonna say anything to you guys.
Reference me my name. I said now Your sister is gonna have to listen to it twice. Yep, I think she's all right listening right now. Probably.
We appreciate
what a button where I have like the music live while we're doing it, instead of me. editing it and post
Yeah.