What’s Wrong With Teddy?

Story of the UNI Bomber and his family. David is the younger brother of Ted Kazinski, a brilliant, troubled, reclusive former mouth professor who began sending bombs through the mail, in killing three people and injuring twenty three others. When the FBI finally closed in on Ted kasins g after a nationwide manhunt that spanned years, it was because they received the ultimate tip the UNI Bomber's brother had turned

him in. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. There were four of us in our family Mom and dad. Uh. Dad made sausages at his uncle's delly. Mom was a stay at home mom, at least until I get to high school. My older brother, Ted is seven and a half years older, was you know, idolized him. He was kind to me. UM. But in addition, he seemed to

exemplify the family's values, which focused on integrity education. Um. He was very very smart, skipped two grades in school, went to Harvard at the age of sixteen on a scholarship. Is a Q was tested it I think a hundred and sixty seven at one. So you know, he represented everything that I wanted to be at that point in my life. And I never doubted for a moment that I was loved by any of my three family members.

And you know, I'm very very grateful for that. And I have to say, you know, our our parents values. There were there were two working class people, both of whom had to drop out of school in high school in order to support their families during the depression. I had to go to work, and then they finished their high school at night school. Sometime later. I think they

actually met in a book discussion club. So there was this attraction to the life of mind um, a sort of very powerful optimism, a belief that by developing your mind, you've developed your spirit, you became someone who could really contribute to the world. So it was part of it. It wasn't only that I modeled myself and Ted. You know, our family sort of had this framework of values that it was around the life of the mind, the arts.

But even though David idealized and idolized Ted, there was also a sense that there was another side to Ted that had nothing to do with the families shared values or academic achievement. There was a time a little bit later when I asked my mom what's wrong with Teddy? And she was a little taken aback. You know, what do you mean, David, there's nothing with your brother? And I said, well, he doesn't have any friends. Why is that?

Doesn't he like people and games? He did seem to shy away from folks, you know, somebody would come over unannounced and he would sort of leave the room quickly, like he was upset that they arrived, a little frightened. And it was then that Mom said that, you know, Ted had had an experience as a child. He is, at the age of nine months, he had gotten sick.

They took him to the hospital. Some kind of rash had covered his body, apparently an allergic reaction, but they couldn't diagnose it, and they kept him there for I think well over a week, and our parents were only allowed to visit during the regular visiting hours. Mom always faulted the hospital for for that, and you know, she felt that when they brought Teddy Holme from the hospital, he was a very different child, at least for a while.

He didn't smile anymore, he didn't make eye contact. And it was at that point that my mom had said to me, Dave, whatever you do in your life, don't ever abandon your brother, because that's what he fears the most. And of course I love Teddy, I said, oh, I love Teddy. I'd never abandoned Teddy. And I remember crying thinking about the pain he had suffered this a little baby.

And I think there was another lesson that my mom sort of wove into that sort of teachable moment, and the lesson was that it takes some compassions empathy to try to understand another human being. And how old were you when she imparted this lesson? More or less would think I'm not exactly sure, probably somewhere between seven and nine years old, and when you said to your mom what's wrong with Teddy? What? What was it beyond that he didn't seem to have any friends? What prompted you

to say that? Do you think, Oh, I don't know that I've been that question and it's an interesting one. Um. I think there were times when Teddy just seemed like kind of shut down, UM, like something was bothering him, but he wouldn't express it. A strong sense of privacy, an introversion that was unusual, I think, at least in my experience, and I tended to be a fairly social person.

I mean, I had friends, you know, it was natural for me to to be interested in people and too, I want to interact with people, and with Teddy it was quite different. So probably I was trying to explore wire Teddy and I different in this way. Did you share a room? We did for a while until I was maybe six or seven years old, and then our father, Um,

we had an attic that was unfinished. We had moved at from Chicago out to one of the suburbs when I was about three years old, and my father finished the attic and you know, a beautiful knotty Pine just made it another story of the house, and then that became Ted's room, so that he and I weren't together in a small bedroom. You know. In some ways it was wonderful for Teddy. On the other hand, it became

a very very convenient escape for him. So on those occasions when he wanted to avoid company, he would just walk up the stairs up to his attic. And you know, I call it an attic. It wasn't like it was, you know, some place of banishment. It was very very nice, nice room up there. Ted goes to Harvard as a very young freshman. During his first year, he's identified as a candidate for a psychological study, an experiment that Ted took part in for three years during his undergraduate career.

The study, titled a Multiform Assessment of Personality Development among Gifted College Men, was masterminded by a famous psychologist named Henry Murray and was meant to measure the effects of trauma ungifted male students. But here's the thing. In order to study the trauma, first they had to inflict it.

Students were berated, emotionally and psychologically, beaten down, humiliated, these students chosen for their vulnerability and high degrees of social alienation, were purposefully being traumatized and gas lit because they weren't told the purpose of the experiment, so they had no idea why they were being treated. So sadistically, it's a study that would never pass MUSTER today. At least I hope that you know there are institutional review boards at

colleges and universities. I think that would look at a study like this and say, no way, this is unethical for various reasons. Um In fact, even if you go back for the time of the study, there was the Nuremberg Code that came out of World War Two, and part of the code was that people should not be harmed or deceived, and this study did both. To my brother. He was asked by his defense attorneys, why didn't you

drop out? Why didn't you quit? And he said, well, I wanted to prove I could take it, that I couldn't be broken. And in some ways this is so much like Ted, because he has this kind of indomitable will, this stubbornness, and yet what occurs to me is that in some ways he may have been broken without realizing it at the very least he was hardened. We didn't know about it. Actually, Mom had had to sign a release because Ted was only seventeen when he went into

this study, and so he needed parental permission. And Mom is thinking, oh, you know Ted, he has some social adjustment and issues. Maybe these nice psychologists could help him. Oh my gosh, it was just the opposite. I think there's a theme in a way running throughout this story of misplaced trust and institutions in some way. You know, the hospital at that time isolating a baby, I'm sure thinking that they were doing the right thing, but you know,

with repercussions. And then Harvard itself, the idea that you know, Ted would go to Harvard and find many other very high i Q individuals just like him, and it would be somehow a soft and gentle place, which is a more accepting place, a more accepting place, right, And then these psychologists under Harvard auspices who run a study like that, well, surely that's going to be a good thing. Ted graduates

and continues his academic rise. David goes off to college himself, and even though they're very different young men, they have a really tight relationship for a pure of time, they both love the woods and far At preserves, and they go on joint camping trips. But then the summer after David's junior year, Ted decides that he's going to quit

his job as an assistant professor at UC Berkeley. He wrote a letter to our parents saying that he's decided to quit that you know, he did not find mathematics fulfilling. That in addition to that, he'd come to this conclusion that technology that most people celebrate kind of uncritically is actually has many, many negative consequences. And he did not

like the mathematics supported technology. But also on a personal level, he wanted to get as far away from it as is he good, and he wanted to go in and live in the woods someplace. And I remember at that time, I don't know if you're old enough to remember the sixties, but it wasn't that uncommon, you know. I think there were time magazine had say a cover stories about people dropping out, quote dropping out or going back to nature.

You know, there was a little bit of a movement to countercultural movement that Ted, you know, wasn't that he wasn't personally aligned with it, but we could understand where he was going, and remember hearing what he was planning to do, and I thought, oh, this is fantastic. Wow. You know, I've always admired my brother, but this is

even better. I mean, how many people um get to do what they really want to do in life instead of what other people expect them to do, And how many people have the courage to follow their own deepest instincts instead of sort of conforming with the social expectation. So I thought it was wonderful. Our parents, you know, were accepting. They didn't try to talk Chet out of

what he was doing. But I remember Mom saying to me at one point, you know, they've just I don't really think this has a lot to do with technology. I'm afraid that the problem is that Ted doesn't doesn't really know how to relate to people, and he's running away from a society that he doesn't know how to fit into. It gave me pause. That summer Ted said he was going to go look for land up in Canada and Alaska, and did I want to join him in that search? And so we spent a couple of

months together camping in British Columbia. Mostly we've got up to the Yukon. There was definitely a brotherly closeness. I remember we took one long hike and I don't know if it was something I ate or if it was altitude or something, and I got a very upset stomach, and we were like four or five miles from the car and Ted ran back to the car to get some tept this fault that we had there, and ran came all the way back to help me so that

I could feel better. You know, there was a kindness in him towards me that I always sensed, but there were also the times when he was very shut down and I didn't know what to make of it. I remember sitting around the campfire one morning and he just looking into the flames and he stopped talking, and I asked him a few questions and he just didn't respond. It was like a stone there and that. So I went off and took a walk, and by the time I got back, he was back to talking again, and

I asked him, you know, what was that about. What Why wouldn't you answer me? Says So I was just just deeply thinking. So I accepted it. But there were a couple of times when he was in a state that Gosh seemed close to what you would call catatonicum, and I sometimes wondered, if, you know, if he was coming to terms with the idea that you know, maybe Mom was right, maybe the really wasn't the answer just

running away. Both David and Ted are drawn as young men to living solitary lives, but that, it seems, is where the similarity between them ends. While Ted seems to be pushing further and further away into a world that appears dangerously hermetic, with nothing but the contents of his own mind for company. David's solitary time has more of a feeling of a pilgrimage. Ted's in Montana, David's in a small cabin in the Texas Desert. The brothers are

both geographically, psychologically, and spiritually on very different paths. Ted is becoming angrier, more and more hostile. He's written a series of terrible letters to their parents, blaming them for everything, cutting off all contact. David uses his time to arrive at a deep sense of self knowledge, and eventually he comes to realize that he's in love with his old friend from childhood, Linda, and that he wants to marry her, and so David writes to Ted to tell him the

good news. At one point I told him that I was going to be leaving the desert. I said, be happy for me. I finally found the person I want to get married to. It's it's Linda Patrick, this girl I've known since elementary school. And he just wrote this very cruel letter. He had never met Linda, and yet he was saying, it's obvious, just David, just from your letter, that she's a horrible person. You know she's going to take advantage of you. But no, you never listened to

my advice. So um, you know, it's just too painful for me to be your brother anymore. So don't don't contact me. I don't want to have anything to do with you anymore. It was just a shock and surprised to me, although I had some precedent with his sort of out of the blue abuse of letters to our parents, angry letters to our parents. And also puts you in a situation where by choosing to love another person, you're

losing this person who you love deeply. Yeah, and it's you know, it's kind of like was Ted thinking that love is finite. You know that it's like a piece of pie, and if Linda gets a piece, he has less um. Now love isn't like that, it's it can expand um amazingly. You know, I thought maybe he just didn't understand that, maybe he felt abandoned in some way, and again my mother's request but I never abandoned came to mind at that point. But I was also pretty angry.

I have to admit thinking, how dare he? You know, our parents were just I think, lovely parents and kind to him and generous to him, and he hurt them terribly and now he's lashing out as another person. But I love as it turned out from his diaries later. Ever, of course, nobody ever read his diaries until after he was arrested and the defense team and asked me to read through his diaries. It was like thirty thousand pages

of diaries. It was unbelievable, um, But it was like opening a window into a tortured soul because I realized he had this tremendous longing for human contact, for companionship, would have liked nothing better than to be married and to have a family. We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. David and Linda Settle into married life. David works as an assistant director of a shelter for runaway and homeless youth. Linda is a professor of philosophy

at a local college. He and Ted are completely estranged. David's never even heard of the unibomber. Remember these are pre internet days, where news stories are run the old fashioned way, the literal actual newspaper, or, if the story is big enough, the nightly broadcast news. David and Linda are living in Schenectady, New York, and it's before the unibomber story makes headlines near them after a mail bomb

kills New Jersey advertising executive Thomas Masser. At this time, the unibomber contacts several national newspapers and asks them to publish what he refers to as his manifesto. He says that if his manifesto is published, the bombs will stop.

So then Linda, who's never met your brother, has this kind of lightning Boltova thought, And as to you, I think that Ted maybe the unibomber, and I was very moved by the way at the two of you navigated that whole period of time after the manifesto was published, because your your initial response was that that was completely out of the question, of which, of course it was. Of course it was. But then you read the manifesto and somewhere within you a tiny little sliver of doubt

creeps in. There's a phrase that I came across when I was writing my most recent book. It's a psychoanalytic phrase, and it's the unthought known. What we what we know, but it's a live wire. We cannot it's way too dangerous to think. And so you're somewhere in the territory of the unthought known, and you and Linda are parsing, you know, the manifesto, looking for clues, and at the same time it's like played out against this backdrop of

this profound impossible choice. When you finally do reach the sense that it's possible, you know that it's possible that Ted is the UNI bomber. I mean, can you talk a little bit about that. Of course I had talked a bit about my brother a lot. Perhaps Linda had many questions why he didn't come to the wedding. I hadn't showed her the letter that Ted had written to me because it was so awful. But you know, I remember some years earlier it was shortly after our father died.

Ted reconnected with my mom briefly. Um she invited him to explain a little bit about why he had been so angry before, and then he wrote a letter that just sailed off back into that anger. And Mom sent me the letter. I showed it to Linda. Remember this is years before David or Linda have ever heard the term unibomber. Linda's looking at this letter. This is in

so it's shortly after we're married. She's looking at this letter and she says, she looks up at me and she says, Dave, you know your brother is sick, don't you. I mean he's mentally ill. And I said, no, no no, no, no, he's really really smart. He's got a you know, a genius like you, and this is the way he thinks. And Linda said, David, look at this passage. You know, people who are healthy in their minds don't think like this.

She actually persuaded me at that point to bring some of my brother's letters to a psychiatrist who we knew socially, and his viewpoint was that yes was sick. He said he couldn't make a diagnosis based on some letters, but possibly it was schizophrenia, which ends up being because eventual diagnosis. So now we're in the mid nineties, you and a bomber has been at it for you. Between ninety he placed or mailed sixteen bombs that killed three people and

injured twenty three others. Linda reads his manifesto and she's able to have the clarity of thought that this letter and the letter she read and had analyzed by the psychiatrist years earlier, may well have been written by the same person. Yeah, I mean, it was an impossible dilemma in the sense that we realized that any decision we made could lead to somebody's death, and my brother was

the un obamber. Of course, we didn't know at this point that if it turned out he was and another person was killed, we'd have to go through the rest of our lives knowing that someone had died because we had failed to act. On the other hand, at this point in time, the un obamber was like public enemy number one, and if he was sentenced to death and executed, I had to ask myself, what would it be like to go through the rest of my life with my

brother's blood in my hands. You know, Ultimately we realized there was one thing we could control. We could save the next person's life. We could set the violence, and then maybe, since you know, we had some evidence, we'd already gone to a psychiatrist, maybe we could convince the Justice Department that Ted was mentally ill and that there was reason to mitigate the sentence of death, and maybe he could get a prison sentence. Sad anyway, that was

the hope. I'm struck again and again by the care and thoughtfulness David and Linda put into their impossible decision. They want to be certain, or at least as certain as possible. Linda's oldest friend is a private detective, and she submits one of Ted's letters anonymously to an expert in forensic analysis of language. The expert comes back at that the author of a letter and the author of the manifesto are one and the same person. Her father was gone at this point, but Mom was still alive,

and we had another choice to make. Do we do involved Mom and this, Do we tell her what's going on? Do we ask her advice? Certainly she was a stakeholder in this thing, But you know, my sense at the time was, oh my god, I just can't this could kill mom, And what if Ted's innocent? You know that her paying her sleeplessness would be for nothing. Anyway. I don't know if that was the right decision, but we

decided to go forward without telling them. But then ultimately, when it turns out that it is Ted and that's been confirmed and it's about to be public, you you go to your mom and she reacts really remarkably right right. I mean, it's probably my defining memory of my mother. I mean, of all the memories I have of her, but the moment that I told her that I suspected Ted and that I had gone to the authorities, she looked at me for a moment like she just couldn't

believe what she was hearing. And then she, you know, she got up and came up to me and put her arms around my She was very short woman, like five ft tall and about six ft tall, and so she had to kind of pull me down and put a kiss on my cheek, and then she said, David, I can't imagine what you've been struggling with. But then she said the thing that I most needed to hear.

She said, David, I know that you loved Ted. I know that you wouldn't have done this unless you truly felt that you had to, And that was that was the greatest relief I could have experienced at that moment. It was just amazing, and in some sense too, it exemplified the family values. The values were raised with to do the right thing. So David and Linda do the right thing. They are promised they'll be treated as confidential informants, that their names not be revealed publicly, But then the

opposite happens. Their suburban home is surrounded by reporters and camera crews. Their names and faces are plastered everywhere. Someone in the huge chain of people, who I guess had knowledge of this, made a mistake. At this point, they had investigators planted in the woods around my brother's cap and apparently, from what I understand, one of them revealed things we should not have revealed to a person in the media. We were, in a sense barricaded in our house.

At one point, there was this reporter who got up on a little ladder and tried to film something inside our house through one of our windows, and and I remember Linda putting a blanket over all the lower four windows to block the media's few of us, and you know, people were asking themselves questions like what kind of a family would produce the univalm or what kind of a brother would turn in his own brother. But there was one of the late night comedians, I think I didn't

see this myself. I guess he thought it was being funny, but he says, yeah, I think of this um in one family. You've got the un Obama and the Unite snitch. Yeah, man, I thought that was called. When the authority surrounded and then swarmed Ted's cabin in the woods, any lingering doubts that David and Linda might have harbored about whether turning him in was indeed the right thing, we're starkly addressed.

Among the incriminating evidence found was another live bomb beneath Ted's bed, wrapped up, ready to be mailed to someone. But though one very hard part of this story is over, Ted is a UNI bomber, he's now been arrested and can cause no more harm, another new, very hard part of this story has yet to unfold, a hard part that eventually becomes a beautiful part. David and Linda begin reaching out to Ted's victims, so does David's mom for a family who has always been set on trying to

do the right thing, the ethical thing. It seems the next logical step, if anything here can be called logical. One of these victims is a man named Gary Wright. One February morning, Gary Wright pulled into the parking lot of a computer company he owned in Salt Lake City. A piece of lumber appeared to be in his way, and when he went to move it, a homemade bomb blew up, grievously, injuring him. He went through three surgeries, spent three years in and out of casts, and had

two hundred pieces of shrapnel removed. It was years before that bomb was connected to the unit bomber. I gave him a call and, UM, you know, my heart skin of in my throat, and at this point I'm trying to think what am I going to say, and don't want it to be too rehearsed. I wanted to be natural.

And then I get this voice that says, you have reached the right house at the wrong time, please leave the enough So I wasn't prepared for that, but I awkwardly, you know, said you know my name is David Kazinski. I think you know who I am, and I would like to talk to you. If you're open to that, I'll try calling that. And then a few days later I called back and again I didn't didn't get Gary directly. I think it was his daughter and I heard her say, Dad, you know, some of these un a line for you,

And then Gary came up. Though most of Ted's victims and their families wanted nothing to do with anyone named Kazynski, Gary Wright had a very different response. I wanted to understand what was going through Gary's head, how he was able to afford a sense of compassion for the brother of the man who nearly killed him. I've asked Gary Wright to join this conversation now here on family secrets.

It was really kind of I guess for both of us, uh nervous dance if you will, in the beginning, But I think I quickly got over it in that I had had quite a bit of time to process, um, what I've been through, whereas David and his family had much less time. So um, when we first began to speak, you know, Dave called and said, you know, I want to apologize on behalf of my family, um for what had happened to you and you know, we're really sorry.

And I just told him, I said, look, David, everybody has someone in their family they probably want to apologize for. And I know my family probably wants to apologize for me on a lot of fronts, maybe not at the same level, but um, you can't carry it up the rest of your life. And we went back and forth a little bit and kind of chatted briefly, but I did let him know. I said, look, sometimes you might need to speak with someone outside of family, close friends

or whatever. Um, just even if it's the screaming get something off your chest. And I said, feel free to call me anytime. I mean Gary's invitation to talk at any time, I mean it was like wow. And believe me, he was incredibly helpful. Um. That's just the notion that, you know, the people affected in different ways could have something in common that we could not be divided by our relationship to Ted. Gary was Ted's victim, as Ted's brother, that if we could build a bridge across this chasms

abyss of human suffering, then there was hope. And I really felt that deep in my heart. The first time that David and Gary actually meet, David is driving across country After Ted enters an insanity plea in court in Sacramento, California, the plea that will ultimately spare him the death penalty, David realizes that the drive will take him right through Salt Lake City, where Gary lives, and with that first meeting begins an important friendship that David describes in his

book as being like virtual blood brothers. Our bond forged through violence is as powerful and deep as any other. He writes, nothing can compensate me for losing Ted, but I find a poetic balance in having gained a new brother in Gary. Our choices end up reshaping the universe, at least the universe we know. I'm so struck by this beautiful idea that our choices end up reshaping the universe. We know that really could be the model for this podcast.

I think something that's very important when you take one of these risks to reach out to the what people think of is the other side, is is to do so without a lot of expectations, Like I couldn't say I want this from Gary, I want X, I want Y. I guess with openness comes some vulnerability, but you have to just be open, I think, and drop the expectations. David, you were describing what you and Linda were afraid of

when the news broken. Your house is surrounding reporters are trying to, like, you know, crawl in through every cravass in your house, and that you know, it seems from what I've read and watched that your friendship in both directions has been I know I hesitate to you this word, but you know, a healing one. Would you characterize it

that way? From my aspect? And I'm definitely one of the things I think that seems to be missing or has been pushed off to the side these days, just in regular day life is empathy and being able to visualize yourself in someone else's shoes. There's so much of the inwardly focused or you know, me focused stuff out there that I mean, there's just not that time taken to look at what would this be if it were me?

And I think in my case, I feel like the ability to be empathetic with what I had seen David and his family go through UM and being open genuinely allowed for us to be able to have conversations and believe me, we've had crazy conversations, but it's really cathartic in a way, both on my end and I won't speak for David, but it's cathartic in that Number One, you realize there's a great human being on the other side of a divide, right um, the event doesn't describe

an entire family, even though some families are completely stigmatized by an event that they had no control over. So you realize the human on the other side and the values, and you you get the opportunity to dig into what really lies behind a family. And when you do that, that's when the opportunity for friendship comes into play. And friendship in my case, you know, I count maybe on two hands who I call friends, and David is one

of those. Right If I called him up and said, hey, Dave, I need a B C or D if it was within his power, he would do it. And if I needed him there and he could do it, he would be there. I'm thinking a little bit about, you know, the notion of rust, and it's been a bit of a theme of our conversation from the beginning, and where is that balance between you know, sort of trust and self protection. I think if I'm going to err, I

probably want to err on the side of trust. David and Garry's friendship deepened into the two men doing healing work together, appearing at speaking engagements to spread their message of trust, healing and forgiveness. David and I have. He's been really gracious to invite me to a lot of events um to speak, but one of the things that has always stuck in my head from day one, the very first time we were ever asked to speak. I

can still remember. My thought process was, if I can just shorten the amount of time that it takes a person to heal, and I'll do this forever. It could be a room of five hundred, but if one person goes away and says, wow, you made me think differently, or I can incorporate some of what you've been through into my own personal space and developed my own path forward, that was pretty much my motivating factor. I feel sometimes I'm just a human experiment on myself, on my own

guinea pig, but happy to share the results. Gary describes picking up the phone and taking David's call as probably one of the top five decisions he's ever made in his life. Remember when I said earlier that something beautiful would come out of all this violence, pain, and horror.

Just think what would have been lost if Gary or David, either one or both of them had shut down, Had either man allowed himself to be made smaller rather than larger by the circumstances he found himself in, then the ripple effect of the peace and healing each of them together and separately has brought into the world would never have happened. You know, we we live in a culture, be in a species that has practiced a lot of violence.

And I think, you know, violence looks powerful because you can impose on somebody else something that you know they can't change, and it may be irreversible. Violence has this illusion of power. But I think one thing that I feel I've truly learned is that violence is not powerful. It's it's weak. It it is only destructive. It only makes the world worse. Love doesn't look so powerful. I mean, it's works in more subtle ways. It's results are not

immediate often. But I think I've known through my parents, through Linda, through Gary, through others, so many others, that love is by far the more powerful force in this world. And the more we recognize that love is powerful and violence as week um, the better chance we'll have to make this world a better place. Many thanks to David Kazinski and Gary Wright for speaking with me today. David is the author of Every Last Tie, the story of the UNI Bomber and his family, and Gary is an

activist and speaker. Find out more about the work Gary's doing at g B Right dot com. Family Secrets is an I Heart Media production. Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer. Julie Douglas and beth Ann Macalouso are the executive producers. If you have a family secret you'd like to share, get in touch with us at listener mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com. You can also find us on Instagram at day any Writer, Facebook at Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter at fami Secrets Pod. For more about my

book Inheritance, visit Danny Shapiro dot com. For more podcasts. For my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.