I'm just gonna say it. Go ahead, how did this happen?
I'm very excited. I think a Zach made it happen. Zach's a dream maker.
Listen, for any of you out there, this is like the freaking Avengers Infinity Saga of Guests when it comes to musical theater. Yeah, this is someone who made it so that when you go to the movies as a straight, heterosexual male, nobody's gonna question you for wearing green skin, green paint.
A hat and a dress. Nobody's gonna question you.
This is more about how you saw this movie. But okay, this is the.
Man that made it okay for anyone in the audience before Cynthia Arriba goes to you know, when it reaches crushindo as they call it in musical theater, climax. Climax allows anyone in the audience to go.
Oh my god. I had to turn down my headphones. Sorry, audience.
This revolutionized theater for musical movie theater theater for twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five.
Well, it's quite a movie and it's a good get. We're also going to be joined audience by Myron Kirstine, who was nominated for an Academy Award for editing Wicked. He's the reason we got to John was because Myron has cut most of my movies. He cut Garden State, he cut I Wish I was here. He cut a movie I made called Going in Style. So we've been friends a very long time and his career has been on the up and up and up. And this is second Oscar nomination.
He's going to get. He's going to get nominated again.
When nominated for Out the the Andrew Garfield musical that I loved? What was that called? Joel Netflix One?
No, the one that got nominated for in the movie theater.
Lin Manuel directed it like Boom something or Tic Tic Boom Boom. I love that movie.
It's a great one.
Did Lin Manuel get nominated for directing that movie, Bardie Chance?
I don't know, but I bet you Joel Monique could look at it.
Should have.
It was a Netflix movie. I like, Yeah, Tictic One was a Netflix movie. The director Violin.
For Netflix movies. Now that's right, I forgot about that.
I love that movie. By the way, can we digress for a moment. Are y'all watching this new Netflix show called adolescentscence.
Adolescents see the first episode, but wow, Donald, it's every episode is a wonner.
And I'm not talking to wonner with fake wipes. I'm talking like they choreographed the most insane wonners. And you get to the end of the episode and you're like, I cannot believe there has not been a cut They've been Episode two takes place all around this whole school with like hundreds of kids, and they're here, and then they're there, and then there's a fire drill, and then they're chasing one kid and they get them down. And
then at the end of the episode. Sorry this is not a spoiler, maybe it is, but at the end of the episode, the fucking camera takes flight. They clipped it onto a drone and it flies to another location and lands.
It's fun gonna put it out there.
I truly believe that in some ways this can be construed as a wonner. But there's no way that they can risk that much money and get to like the last five minutes.
Of the show.
There's somebody go, fuck, what's my line, and them have to be like, all right, we're taking it from the top.
That's what they what they did i'dy, I'm trying to there's you can watch the behind the scenes shit on YouTube. I I I I'm trying to watch them because as a filmmaker, I'm so obsessed with how they executed this. But also I don't want any spoilers because I'm only
I'm only two episodes in out of four. But it's it's the I mean, they just rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed, and they it was like rehearsing a play, except then they started folding in the camera and it's like the cameraman's like a like a dancer who basically I mean, at moments he's just going around and then at moments I saw from the behind the scenes he likes getting on it. He like steps onto a golf cart, and then the golf cart takes it a tracking shot and then I mean the pilot.
It's all done on steady cam.
Obviously, no it's not steady kim, it's a it's a gimbal. It's a handheld gimbal. But it's I mean, first of all, the the the technical production aspects of it are one thing, but also it's brilliantly acted and it's the number one show on Netflix. I really really recommend it to everybody.
Amazing.
How's everybody doing when we haven't been together and so long? I miss y'all.
You've been working, man, You've been working up a storm.
I've been directing Han Solo.
I don't know if he likes people calling him that. I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm gonna be honest with you. If I said if I met him, and I was like, I mean, I haven't met him, but if when I saw him, I was like, holy shit, Han Solo, he'd be like, I will never.
Be You wouldn't like that from you.
No, I don't think he likes that from you. I've been directing Hans Solo.
Well, I don't say I wouldn't say that to Han, but if him. Sometimes I call him, I'll say something like, okay, mister Ford, you're standing here, and he goes, mister Ford's my father.
I love it. I love that Harrison Ford is still like, I'm a young man you call me.
That's at the moment, like there was this moment where something was broken on the set, like a piece of molding or something, and he the grips are trying to put back in place. He goes, let me do it and starts kicking it. He goes, I was a carpenter.
That's a duful.
He's like one of the most famous.
He's like one of the fam most famous former carpenters in the history of.
Cars and Jesus, one of the most famous.
Did you know that Hans Solo was a carpenter before he became Han Solo.
That's the that's the thing. Harrison Ford was a carpenter.
He was actually laying freaking uh uh it sighting in the in the in the office when he was asked to audition every human being on the planet is like, yo, maybe I can Harrison port it someday him. Daniel day lewis most famous shoemaker other than freaking John Madden.
Freaking most famous.
I say John maddocause John Maddon stole so many shoe I did. But I'm not saying Daniel Dan. But my point is, got it. All I gotta do is read Daniel's face. Daniel's face is always the one.
Yeah, well, Danield's a good read. I can't have question. Daniel's a good read. For when you say something that we don't know what you're talking about. Danil's face tells us that we don't know what you're talking about. But uh so anyway, Yeah, I've been directing Shrinking. It's so fun. I just really like the cast. Everyone's so cool. It's such a good show. Everybody who loves the show. You're gonna be blown away by season three. It's really really good, really fun.
Did you get on the pit set? I know that was a goal of yours.
I did. I got a tour of the pit set. You know, it's incredible because it's enormous. It's a huge, huge set of an er And what they do is they everything is controlled. They don't bring any in any film lights. Everything is practical lighting within the hot spittal set. And so the way they shoot the show, they choreograph it and then they don't wait on almost every other
thing that's made. You then go and light it and bring in lights on stands and flags and and and all sorts of things to shape and cut the light. But on this show they don't do that at all. Everything is lit from the actual practical lights that are built into the er set. So it's really cool. From someone who's a geek of film production. It was a cool thing to see.
If you're the not the D I guess the DP, how do you it's just camera setups, then that's it it is.
I think, like, yeah, every single thing. I'm sure they have some lighting guys on in case they have to adjust something, but everything's in the lighting board. So if the if they want more light on the person, they'll just bring up the dimmer on that little area, you know, almost like a play. I think. Then they told me they have a couple of little cheap tricks they do where they can they can sort of snap something into one of the ceiling lights and that and that will
bring light further down. There's all these little things, but it's just really really incredible and what a great show that is. If you're not watching the pit, that's just fucking incredible.
Yeah, that's that's I mean, my mind's going crazy right now because all I can think of is that what we're going to do when and if we do scrubs.
I really hope so, by the way, Donald, because it gives you so much more time to particularly the stuff that's just hospital like if and scrubs, if when you get into fantasies and all that stuff. Of course that's different, but and specialty shots. But you know, with scrubs, the camera is such a character, whereas this is where is the pit. It's made to feel almost like a documentary.
But I got to tell you, when we're just doing straight if and when it happens and we're just doing straight hospital stuff, we'd have so much more time in your day to not be waiting for all these these lighting set up changes. So I would love to I would love to convince whomever the DP is to do it that way. I guess it would come from Bill. Bill would just tire someone to say, do it that way.
You took the tour on your own, or you you and Bill went how to go?
No, So.
You know.
Shrinking also has just incredible sets for those of you who love the show. All of those interiors are sets there. They have houses in the real world that are the exteriors, but the office set, Liz's house, Jimmy's house, just Gabby's house. All of the big interiors are all built huge sets on stage. And the construction coordinator, sorry, there's an ambulance
some in New York City. The construction the head of construction for Shrinking also did the pit and he was like, someone told me you like the pit, go Yeah, man, can I get a tour of the set because they're not shooting right now, but the set is so massive they left it up and he's like, of course, So he arranged for me to get a whole tour, and I thought it was just gonna be him, but he brought like the art director, the production designer, and like,
they gave me this amazing walkthrough. They were so kind. They gave me merch. They gave me fucking pit merch. I got a pit ski hat. Whew.
That's how you know you're on a hit show when they're like, listen, we're just gonna keep the sets up for the summer. We're gonna keep it up for the whole year. We're gonna just rent out the stage. The stage is ours, don't even worry about it. We're just gonna leave it up. That's how you know you're coming back next year.
Yeah.
Well, some of these sets are just so I mean, it's crazy. One of those shrinkings, big sets. They moved stages and when you see this thing, you're like, I can't believe the amount of work it must have taken to fucking take this all down and put it back up on a different soundstage. It's really really cool. There's some great work happening on that show, really good stuff.
Can we get into a little bit of Star Wars.
Yeah, but let's keep it brief because we love all those things, all of us love all those things.
But but have you seen this? Is how long it's been. Have you seen the trailer for and Or?
Yeah?
No, are we not ready for this this? Have you seen the most recent trailer for and Or? Yeah?
Okay, it's delightful. I'm very excited. I was curious about the pomp and circumstances of the first trailer where they were like, all the critics love it, but I get that they're trying to get people to see it. Disney recently released I think all the episodes on YouTube, or at the very least the pilot is available on YouTube. They're like, please, for love of God, watchings in one and come check out season two. So they believe in it. I'm excited about it.
This looks like it looks more Star Wars than anything I've seen, and are really like, it looks like great, it looks.
Like it's a lot like they made the Empire strikes back again.
Dude, Like, that's what it looks like, at least that's what it looks like to me, the color tone, all of that stuff.
Are you excited about Thunderbolts?
You know, I'm gonna be honest with you ahead and being honest. I just right now Marvel is putting out things that I'm I'm excited for Fantastic four. Let's put it that way.
We'll see, Okay, okay, Joel, Are you excited for Thunderbolts?
I am. Here's why Marvel has had a bit of a it's been rough over there. We can't lie, but it's clear they believe in this film. It's clear that Disney's trying to do some new stuff. They have a wild wonky schedule for and or they were like, listen a twenty four freaks, y'all have cinema, Come see this. It's gonna be movies in a big way here. So that makes me excited. Plus, you know, we got love for Florence in this house. She's talented. There's a lot of good names.
Up in there.
So I'm really thought, I don't know if they did it off of they cut that trailer there was basically like, this is an eight four movie. And I thought that was really clever. I don't know if you know, I thought that was really good marketing because that kind of went to viral.
Mm hmm.
There's no way this movie is gonna is A twenty four. This shit, and halfway through.
When you do you see the trailer.
I'm talking about absolutely halfway through the movie, everybody's going to be like, holy shit, this is like more special effects than any of this is a this is an Avengers movie.
This is an Avengers level.
But I think that I think the level of marketing was we didn't just hire I mean, I'm just I'm just seeing what they're selling. And they're saying we hired a lot of people from all of these A twenty four movies that you love, and these are the people executing this particular Marvel Meet. It might be a bit different because it's been made by these people.
I think that's a I think that's a bonus if anything too.
Yeah, so today that's why they're cutting trailers about.
Yeah, I'm gonna say and I will say this also, I feel like, and this is me predicting the future. I feel like this universe is dying, and that's why the colors are starting to turn into this Also.
I think we're going to I think we're going.
To experience a new a new reality in the Marble Cinematic Marble Universe to combine all of these characters within the next five years.
I think that's where this is going.
Well, let me tell you some underbolts. I think you can bet on Florence Pew anytime.
I will bet on her anytime. Anything.
You're gonna buy stock, taking to buy stock, you could buy stock in Florence, save Florence.
Bet. That is a safe bet.
When is this going to air? This episode too? Well, because my event is coming up next Tuesday. And next Tuesday, okay, well, my event for the midnight mission, which is a celebration of the music from the Garden State soundtrack twenty years Later, is coming up again March twenty ninth. Oh my goodness, that's this weekend, buddy. That's not this weekend. That's next weekend. Please,
I got a lot to do. It's this weekend. It's this weekend when people are and I wanted to I wanted to make sure everyone knows that if you're unable to come. We've partnered with the company called veeps dot com v E E p s dot com and you can buy the stream of the show starting April six,
which is my birthday. And thanks to our good pals at T Mobile, every single cent of the money you spend to buy the stream goes directly to the midnight mission, which is really really cool, great time, because these things all cost a lot of money, so to be able to have T Mobile offset the production cost so that every cent of you buying the stream from anywhere in the world, anywhere in the world goes directly to the
midnight mission. So check it out. We're gonna have a lot of special guests, including spoiler for you podcast listeners only, Donald Fazon I will be there. You know who else is going to be there. I'm going to spoil another one for the podcast audience. Sarah Chalk.
Yeah, it's going down.
I have a feeling there's gonna be a whole lot of Scrubs people at this event.
They are They're all coming, but only you two are going to be on stage introducing a band with me.
Is there going to be a teleprompter?
There will be a teleprompter, but I'm also going to, uh.
Write your cuff. We could go off the cuff if you want.
Well, you know the bit we're gonna do. I'm going to talk about how you said are there any black people in this movie?
Right? And then I'm gonna say, are there any black people in this at this concert?
No, don't do that.
Don't do that. No, you can't do that. Okay, damn No, I don't think that goes that joke.
That's why I don't want you going off the cuff. That's why I don't That's why I don't want you going off the cuff.
Bro.
You're sticking to the script of all people that are going to be on that stage. I need you to be sticking to the prompt. Why because you go rogue and say stupid ship?
That's not stupid. It's a good question.
Remember when Doja Cat left you hanging?
Yeah, I do remember that. That was that was me going rogue and doing some stupid ship.
He's just trying to Doja Cat at some event and he went to like do like a high five with her and she didn't see him. She wasn't like being rude. But then Donald left his hand up there and you didn't know what to do with it. So then he started high five in it himself.
It was high five, dude, that's all I know. You didn't I did yourself?
Are you? And then you hit it? Yeah, don't even try it.
It was sometimes I think about that.
Yeah, that's called to the script.
Yeah, that's sometimes I think about that in the shower and I shiver. You don't, but cat left you hanging.
I know you would shiver. I know you would shiver.
If I said that ship about how many black people are performing at your show, you'd be like, that'd be twenty weeks later in the shower.
Oh god, I remember that.
He's don't say anything that's going to make me shiver. I don't like it when you go off script. I'm gonna put your lines in the prompter in bold with an underline Sarah. Sarah's gonna get a regular font. You're gonna get bold and underlined.
No, wait, is John here?
He is?
Yes, we have both guy, Myron Kirstine.
Here both myn nervously. What are you nervously? Donald, don't embarrass me.
I'm not gonna embarrass you.
I wish you had a teleprompter right now.
First question, how do I get in your next.
No, don't do that. I wish we guy, I wish just start chill, okay, okay, Joelle, I wish we had a teleprompter for Donald.
On this fucking zoom Callanel's face, rely on Donald face, Daniel, Donald wants channel's face.
Five six seven eight.
I'm not sure we made about a bunch of he said, he's the stormy net so YadA here yeada.
Oh my god, yeah, let's gosh.
I can't believe we did this.
This is the best.
Okay they are. Listen you guys. I've been I'm down to be chill.
I've been, I've been prompted to be chill and not act crazy. But we have freaking cinema royalty, in my opinion, in the motherfucking.
You guys. Good to see you, Good to see you. Welcome Myron and John. That's our engineer, Daniel and our producer Joel. And I know you know there are a lot of fans of the movie Wicked, but probably the number one fan in the universe up there is Donald Faison right there, who who has already sung some of the songs for our audience before you've joined us.
I said, I wouldn't do it when you're on the air. I'm not going to embarrass myself. Listen, we need to stop now. Just Zach proceed because.
You just calm down.
Coming up, it's coming up.
John, John, I'll be the more calm voice and say, uh, Donald and I love musicals, and we that's one thing we've shared in comments is the day we met. We we You know, it's funny because he's into sports and so many and Marvel and Star Wars and so many things I'm not into. And but one thing we overlap with is our just love of musicals. And we both, from the bottom of my hearts, think you did the most fantastic job with this.
Both of you did. We I'm gonna get to Myron.
I'm starting with John. Myron, I'm going to get to but John, I just think you absolutely crushed it. I loved it. It was my favorite Mooey of last year.
Thank you.
I appreciate that. Appreciate that. And it's been a long time coming for all of us to be together. I mean, I've heard stories of you for so long from Myron. He's given me all the secrets of how you've done things. So it's been perfect.
I trained him, So for those of you who don't know, I think I mentioned it briefly in the intro, but Myron cut Garden State and he was really, you know, just absolutely incredible editor, but particularly with music. I mean, the reason so much of what worked in Garden State with music was because of Myron and how he plays songs.
And I was just thinking the other day, Myron, and how you know, I had always imagined that ecstasy party scene to be to be like something like that, but I just didn't know how the hell we're going to execute it. I remember you came to set one day. It was it was so long ago. I think he may have even brought like a VHS tape and put it in my trailer, in the in the in the in the in the VHS player, and I just was so floored. I was like, oh my god, I never thought it was going to be as good as that.
So Myron, and from the very beginning of me meeting him, it's been someone so gifted, uh with music and and heart. So you guys are such a perfect marriage for each other because this is like the epitome. I mean, a movie cannot get bigger when it comes to music and heart than what you guys made.
Oh that's so nice, and you know, you know the only reason, because we've got paired together.
I never on Crazy Wit Jasions.
I was looking for another editor and someone suggested him and the one credit that brought him into my life was Garden State Seeing. I mean, obviously that soundtrack was became a part of my life. That movie became a part of my life. I was like right in the pocket of who you were speaking to in that and so it was, it's been, it's been, and it awoke
me to two different artists and things like that. So and how you can make a movie where music is the power using the power of music, which is where you were where it says so much more than what words ever could. And it can be expressed cinematically, visually in ways and in cuts in ways that no other medium can do.
So it was really it was.
Music always a part of your life because you you you. I'm sorry to ask. I know you've been on a mega press tour and some of these questions you've been asked a zillion time, So I promise I have some original ones, but it's hard not to ask you as someone who's so gifted? I mean you started with dance, right with the Dance movie? Yeah, yeah, they step up and then, but like, how was it always? Are you a dancer? Do you dance at all?
No?
I mean I've taken dance when I was a kid.
How did you get in? How did like, how did like step up? Land? Like, how did you know you were the right guy for that? Well?
Well, I grew up in the Bay Area and I'm the youngest of five kids, and my parents are immigrants from China, and they wanted all us kids to be as Americanized as possible so they could be the opposite of what they came when they came here, because they didn't speak a word of English. So they put us in dance classes. I took tap for twelve years because I had to be with my sisters basically when they
were taking it. I took drum, saxophone, violin, guitar. I'm not good at any of these things, but I took it. And every weekend my parents would take us to the theater in San Francisco musical musical season, opera season, ballet season, like. We would be there all the time. Of course, we'd watch movies all the time. TV was always on our on in our house, so it was just sort of a part of me. And when I started actually working with the camera and editing with my little VHS camera.
At that time, all my friends were dancers or musicians, and so I was the guy with the camera, and so that's where I was. I was sort of theater kid adjacent. I was part of theater but not great at it, but I could. I knew them well enough that I could try to communicate what I knew from the film side into what they.
Wanted to say.
And that's where it sort of all started. And first step up that came to me, and I did not want to do it because it was a direct to DVD movie, and I called my mom. I was like, I can't have my first movie be a direct to DVD movie. I was discovered by Spielberg from my student short like this is not right, and my mom's like, when did you become a snob? I was like, if you are a storyteller, you can tell a story in any medium, in any way. You could be by a campfire,
you could be in a car, like prove yourself. And I was like, you're right, I'm going to make the best damn direct to DVD dance movie sequel of all time.
And that's where it's all sort of started.
And you did, right, and then they changed it to not go directed to DVD. Right.
Yeah, became a theatrical two weeks after I joined, and I repitched it in a way that I thought a dance movie should be. Instead of five numbers, I wanted thirteen. And all these different Disney who distributed the first movie came around, was like, hey, let's listen to your pitch. And twenty minutes later they're like, we have a slot, but it's in nine months. Can you get it done in nine months?
And we did.
That's strung me off.
Wow, So listen to your mom, listen to you.
I know that a lot of the kids from that movie went on to do several of the sequels too, So yeah, like that and are very and I looked at as high levels in the dance community. Also, do you still use any of them when you're doing other projects?
Yeah, I mean amazingly.
One of our actors in it, Christopher Scott, is one of the dancers in it. He plays his bit part. He auditioned for us in Baltimore because that's where he's from. He came back after shooting, and we all became friends because we're all young, we're all our first movies, and he would just hang out at the edit room. And now he's the choreographer of Wicket, and he choreographed in the Heights, and so I watched him transition from dancer
to choreographer. He watched how I pitched movies, and I taught him how to use certain things and photoshop and keynote and whatever, and he used those skills to get his first choreography jobs.
And so now we get.
To it together.
Well, the choreography in this movie was just absolutely incredible. I mean, what has it been with you? We have so many questions for you, But how does it feel when you watch these kids and all these videos of people, you know, doing the choreography like it's meant This movie has meant so much to people of so many different ages. I mean, we're fifty years old and we're walking around singing it, and then you've got the little kids walking around,
you know, doing the dance moves on TikTok. I mean that just must be so gratifying for you, guys.
That's the best. It's the best.
And Mayron and I share, you know, we're texting each other videos, TikTok videos back and forth of people doing it. You know, we all, you know, especially as storyteller, if we want our stories to be seen and to be accepted and for them people to like dig in even deeper.
And learn the choreography.
I mean, that's how I learned watching all the Michael Jackson videos and you know, recording it, recording MTV on my VCR, just watching it over and over and over against studying.
Like to me, that's like that's the ultimate goal from it.
So heat is so when you just if we can just begin to break down, Well, first of all, I just wanted to say, how did it come to Cynthia and Ariana. I'm sure every woman of who's the right age and can sing audition for you, both famous and not famous. We can tell why you chose them, because they're both absolutely brilliant. But what was that process?
Like?
Did you I read in my notes that you that you initially thought you'd hire unknowns.
Yeah.
I thought Wicked was big enough that you could we could actually like break somebody, and I was I didn't want any anything, uh, sort of dictating how the movie should feel or be because there's some big star or
the studio wanted that. And so when I came in, it was very clear that studio knew that Wicked could be big enough that we could do that, and so that was sort of the staate, like whoever's best for this, and and in my head it was like, well, we're going to discover someone so Wicked is its own thing, and of course you're getting We got inundated with calls from everyone around town to come, and we said there's no offers. Everyone has to come in and read, and
everyone starts at the same spot. And we saw a lot of people and all really really good. I mean, everyone prepared. Everyone was so amazing. But you know, there's a moment where someone just takes it from your lap. And we had been down the road of seeing a lot and sort of debating. What we realized is, you know, we had to get experienced people because these songs are way more difficult than I thought they were. People come in, their voices are breaking.
They're double black diamond songs.
Absolutely, you know, I have a funny memory.
Just to digress for a moment, I was reading in New York at Bernie Telsey's casting office. I don't know if Bernie cast this, didn't.
He Bernie did.
Yeah. And for those who don't know, Bernie Telsey is by far the biggest Broadway casting directors, particularly musicals. He's he's almost got a monopoly on Broadway musical casting. And he's a brilliant guy. And I was auditioning. This was many years ago, but I was auditioning for the production of Angels in America. And next to me in the next Versus studio, they were auditioning women to replace Alphaba.
And to replace Nadel Nazine.
No, not Adel. This was after Adele Deseine. I think it may be in for a tour. I don't know. I don't know the specifics. All they know is that while I was waiting, they have gotten this down to such a science that they really just have them come in. And these girls were just women were walking in and they were like basically like, oh, like, just can you hit the fucking note or not? And then then we'll talk to see if you can hit the note.
And I don't get a ramp ump nothing, huh no read it.
It was basically it may have been like it may have been like two bars before the note. I don't know, but but it was brutal because they were just like next, next, next, And I was shocked how many of these women walked into this audition, like, you know, if you could hit it or not, why why are you here?
There's that one chance that God will bless me right now at this moment.
Yes it will come out exact.
Yes I have never hit it before, but I will hit it at Bernie Telsey's.
Yeah, it was an intimidating lobby because you could hear everybody going for it, and that would be any if you're an actor walking in.
And we did not just say you had to be able to sing.
I mean this is a movie, and so we needed them to be able to act and the camera need to be able to be two inches from their face and then and give layers to this character and not be imitation of what we've seen before, but something fresh in news.
There's a lot to ask.
Of them, and there were people who were like, you know what, don't even worry about the big notes. Just go do what you can if it. If you fail, it's all good. There's things we can do that can help. And but but when those two ladies came in, it was just like they had the full package.
You know, it's it's.
Timid hold up, but you know it's intimidating when Cynthia Rivo, who is known for singing very well and killing it and is known for being such a phenomenal actress, had to walk into the audition with a blanket tied around her neck and a damn and a damn broom.
In the ninety nine cent store from.
Anti store to freaking get a leg up on this audition.
Man. You know, it's really feel when somebody who is a comment she is.
Would walk I would like to walk into audition rooms with the confidence of Cynthia Revial walking into sing defying gravity, because she must have been like, I got this.
Well, we know when she walked in with a blanket and a broom.
Let me let me let me clarify that she it was a I think that was like a jacket that she had on earlier. She had taken that off because we sang Wizard and I first, and she was singing opposite another big actor and that actor was like.
You know, she was like awestruck by Cynthia.
She's like, you know, she just sang at a sold out a Disney concert hall last night at like nine pm, and she's here this morning. She's like, you know how many people would pay for tickets to be sitting here in this room right now to watch her sing defying gravity? And so already you could feel that vibe. And she sang wizard and I first. And when she sang those first words, did that really just happen? She became a little girl. She became not the Cynthia Rivo on the
big stage of the sold out show. She became a dreamer in their dorm room. And I felt so connected with that little girl singing, and then watched her grow in that song to hit those final notes. It was very clear, very quickly that she was our Alphaba.
You must have been so excited. I mean, when I'm auditioning people, you know, people think people don't know this, but you're really quite nervous. You don't know if you're going to find the person. You know, you're like, I hope we find the person. And when she when she performed, you must have been like, oh my god, we found the person.
Hold on, you mean you got how often is it that directors and production settles and says, you know what, we didn't find a person, but we've found somebody close enough to just tell this story.
How often does that happen? Hold on? This opens up a new conversation for me.
Well, I don't know.
How you feel, like, oh, I got the part, but the possibility that I wasn't right for it.
But they just settled because they could tell the story.
Now, I don't know if it's settling. It's we're out of time and and and I for me, I might can only speak for me, not John, but we're out of time and this person is great. They might not be exactly what I pictured, but maybe they'll be better than I could have imagined. But we need to go and we need to start now. That's you know what John and Myron are engaged is something that's eighteen months
of pre production. So you certainly have a whole lot more time to make sure you find the right person for your gargantuan movie.
But there's always but there's always a leap of faith.
It's always there's always like a section that you're like, well, I think that I have confidence they can get there in these areas because they haven't dug into obviously the text and all that stuff. So it's always just a little bit of like, trust your instincts, Myron.
How how often are you like, look, all right, it's good, but I could fix it in post.
Don't worry about it. I'll fix it. I can fix this. Don't worry about it. I mean, you're like freaking Scotty.
You're asking him to answer that in in front of you.
Your daily is Donald, I'm always like, I could fix this. I don't worry about it.
Right, you become Scotty.
I'm giving you.
Now what I What I love is that you know every actor is bringing on the day and then I'm there to be the next collaborator to bring my own take to it, and everyone's going to do the best job.
And and what.
Was so nice about Wicked is that I was privy to see some of these auditions, so it was very it was it was a real gift to see John's process. And then when you did see Cynthia and Ari step in, You're like, oh my god, this this is on another level. And you know, of course I think that you know there's there's a different version of every movie that with
a different cast in there. But then when you actually see it together and you're like, oh, this was inevitable, this is exactly it was supposed to be.
Let's take a break.
We'll be right back after these fine words. Did you guys always plan to have it be to films? I wanted to ask you that what was that? Was that from the get go? Or because I'm so glad you did, because it's so much movie the idea of trying to cram that whole story into one, But but was that always a plan?
Well?
When I came in, you know, they had been they had been developing scripts, many scripts for the past I don't know, twenty years before I ever came in, and those scripts weren't ready, and the big question was can you make this into one movie? And so when I stepped in, the debate was already in progress. And for me, it was like, if you are debating this, then you're
never going to make two great movies. You're always going to be in between, and you might as well just shove it all into one and that's a whatever four and have five hour movie. Or if you're going to get it into let's say you want to get into a three hour movie that you're ripping out half the songs, and then is that Wicked?
And it became very clear it was.
There's almost no question that in order to do Wicked properly, you needed to break it up. And then we needed to make that decision fast. Usually when you come in as a director and something's been sort of half developed, then you have about two weeks as the honeymoon period you can do whatever you want. And so I knew you have to make big, bold choices right from the beginning, and that choice of I don't want We're not going
to debate this anymore two movies. Let's focus in to make each movie the best singular movie we can and every piece of architecture that we need to do in this story in order to make that happen is what we need to do, and that's what we need to be focusing on.
Of course, in the back of my mind, I'm always like, well, we're going to shoot too.
If it's better to be one movie, then we'll figure that out later. But we had to make bold, very specific choices, intentional choices from the very beginning. So that's where it started.
Can I say ask, just say something, yeah, something that I really love.
To raise your hand. It's your podcast you now.
Sometimes you like to talk too.
So what I really loved is that you didn't shy away from the fantasy part of this story. And a lot of people focus mainly on Okay, let's focus on the music. Let's focus on let's focus on the dancing. Usually when musicals are made, let's focus on that part. And then the part that's always left out is either the surrounding area, like how the story looks, or the or the heart. And you tackled all of them at once,
and that was for me as a moviegoer. Like he said earlier, I love Star Wars, I love Marvel, and was great to see all of those genres but flipped upside down with music coming through also, and you don't really see you. You never see that, to be honest with you, Even the biggest movie musical before this, it didn't have it. I think what was it grease is that the you know what I mean, it has numbers, but it's relying on the dance, it's relying on the singing.
And everything like that.
You have great performances and musical numbers, but the movie also hits fantasy dead on, and I really really appreciate it.
As a fantasy lover, I really.
Appreciated that, and so that's one of the reasons why this movie sticks with me so well. It's like I'm going to see Star Wars, but I'm also getting a nice show out of it too, a good song and dance out of it too.
That's great, I think because also, like I said, I'm theater adjacent, a theater kid adjacent I'm not.
I didn't come from theater, so.
I am definitely of the film side, and yet I love it.
Those are my friends, are my family.
That's where I enjoy watching stories, and so I think we could bridge that gap. There was funny thing because and I realized with Wicked that oh, this was a property that has opportunities to do the thing that no other musical could do. The world of oz was as important as the music of Wicked, and that we were bringing cinema lovers back to a world that they had fallen in love with cinema maybe in the first place,
and that there was a great responsibility with that. And at a time after COVID, when cinemas were hurting, and at a time when people are doubting the scope and
scale of what cinema can do. And we're at a time where representation is such an important thing and in works of timeless art, that we if we could incorporate a physically disabled actor, truly disabled, playing a disabled person in the in there, we could We could have people of all shaped, the size, colors, ages, and and have the music as not as a separate piece, but as a as an integral part of the expression of that
in a timeless world. And by the way, that timeless fantasy world maybe one of the first that has accessible ramps for the characters and things like that, that we can do that, and we and because ultimately the story is digging at truth. If we could at these actors could could portray the truth, and of course Meyern digging that out.
Then we had something.
That was very unique in Wicked that I'd never gotten that opportunity.
I think, he's I love I love what you said. And from my perspective, I don't go to these you know, most of the bockbusters, with these budgets and these scale of production are there not made for me. This was the first movie in a long time I can remember like where I thought, Oh, I get to enjoy the spectacle that Donald gets to see in these Marvel movies that he enjoys, but in a world that's interesting to me.
I mean, I can't think of a movie that that Yeah, reiterating what you're saying, that that that gives me a musical theater lover scope and scale and and fantasy and just I mean, I I can segue into into this into a question in you built so much of these sets practically. I mean, this could have been such a It wouldn't have been nearly as beautiful if this had been a green screen so much as a green screen. I know, obviously you have some green screen in it,
but yeah, but you built so many practical sets. Was that hard to convince the studio to spend the money on building those worlds? Because I know you built some pretty epic sets. We can tell from watching the movie.
Yeah, I mean it's it still goes to today. You know, the amount of money it takes to Mount Oz is a lot, and the commitment it takes, I mean today is a lot easier than it was five months ago.
But when you were building these sets, very that.
Was part of the concept, you know, how I said, like, you get two weeks to do whatever you want. Like what I knew is I had to sell this idea that in order to have us revisit Oz, that we had to take the physical attributes of the Wizard of Oz of the nineteen thirty nine.
Movie and break the matte painting.
And actually, if this movie was about truth, then we needed to believe that this place actually exists, that it was not in a dream, and so that the grass had to be real, the walls had to be high, the physicality of it had to be there, and so we wanted this. I always sold this, like Lawrence of Arabia as Cleopatra, as one of those things that we
only get once in our lifetime to really build. And so by pushing that hard in those first two weeks, I sort of like held their feet to the fire every time.
Questions would come.
And then you get someone like Nathan Crowley, our amazing production designer who who is a big trouble maker, builds, loves to build. He you know, he worked with Nolan for many years and did great, great showmen, and he he he's the one who's like John, we're gonna plant nine million tulips. John, We're going to build the train and it's gonna move. John, We're gonna make that lake in front of the in front of the school. And I was like, they're gonna kill us. And he's like, you don't worry.
You just keep moving and we'll make it happen.
He's like, by the way, the tulips are already planted, so that's no choice.
I love a guy like that. I love someone like that.
Do you think it's because it's Wicked that people feel this way? Like Wicked changed Broadway? You know, there are not a lot of shows that come into Broadway and are sold.
Out for two years straight.
I think Wicked was What's the other one that that Josh gadd was a part of the Book of Mormon is another movie that was sold out for you couldn't.
Get tickets for two years.
Do you think the response that you're getting from all of these these are the creatives that you are collaborating with, is because it's such a special piece, Like.
Absolutely absolutely, I think that I think it was on multiple fronts. I would think of of course, Wicked, the show that the work that Kristin Adina, Joe, all these people did on the uh.
Try to call her adele.
I'm sorry, yes, sorry, yes, yes.
The work that they did was was huge obviously lifting I mean it said it, and it only allowed us to do what we could do. What we were able to do is then take that and and and use them as excuses to then crank it up and to actually build it into a cinematic world, which is which
is a very different thing. But absolutely Stephen Schwartz Winnie Holtsman that everybody who worked on that show for twenty years, who honed those jokes, who honed the thing, they deserve huge amounts of credits because we you don't get this kind of uh, this kind of opportunity without the show itself, of course, no doubt.
Let me ask you something I was wondering. This is an example with the library dance sequence. So you built this insane set that is just so beautiful, and then you have choreography that's specific to the moving library stacks, which was in stunt people. And I've literally watched behind the scenes stuff. That's the level of geeking out I've done. But how do you how what's the chicken or the
egg with that? Does your production designer say, hey, John, What if there were these circular spinning library stacks and then you go to the choreographer, Okay, what could you do with that? How did that, just as an example, evolve because I've never directed anything, you know, even with choreography, well maybe one tiny thing with choreography, but I've always wondered, how how youse a director evolve something like that?
Yeah, it's well, I have some amazing collaborators, of course, and we've done this for many years, so we have a process. And this may not work for everybody, but for us. Myron's in on that process. Alice our DP is in on that process. Chris Scott, our choreographer who I've known for so long, is in process. By the way, Alice our DP I've worked with since college. So she shot my college musical. So we can get in a room and usually the script is very basic in terms
of the description of what's happening within the dance. I ask them not to go too into detail because I then take all the pieces and I'll break them out and start to sort of I don't just sort of riff off of what I think could happen. And I'm there with Chris and so then Chris adds on to that and says, well, and this is all just part of the discussion, Well what if you did that? What if they're if everything is circular? We start with like the themes of the of the movie. Okay, so Oz
is everything is circular. Everything's been constructed to be perfect circles. And yet in order to be a perfect group that the cracks need to happen, The sharp edges the z in Oz needs to happen. And that's where alpha but comes in. So at shiz, everything has been perfectly circled. We need to create some cracks in that. And this is where the young generation first starts to like let
loose in their movement. So Chris starts to work on like what movement could look like then, and then when I bring up this, like what if this is turning bookshelves? We knew that everything in Oz couldn't be had to be bespoke, had to be a little bit delightful. If the Wizard's sort of whole plan is to distract people with delight so they didn't have to worry about and they could always feel happy and didn't have to worry about worry or anything like that, then he could be
in full control. So so okay, let's let's make the bookshelves not straight but delightfully circular. And of course when that starts to spin, we had done in the Heights a spinning number on a fire escape.
We had just experienced that.
So what if this whole thing was circular, and what if there's a little nod to two thousand and one, like what if it had all these elements to it. We wanted to do nods to American movies because we were also sort of kicking the tires on the American story. So there was this idea that how would the dancers do that? And so then we have to convince this so that I pitch it to our group, all our heads of departments, and we have boards that Alice and
I work on. We don't know any actual choreography yet. Chris doesn't even know what the dancers are able to do in a spinning wheel because he doesn't have a spinning wheel to actually doesn't know if he needs to hire parkour people, chimnysts or bay boys or whatever or combination. And so then our engineers start to build our physical
special effects. People start to say what they can build and then Nathan starts to build around it how the whole library is sort of circular, and then we deal with the insurance, which is a whole other issue, and at some point Chris goes into all the choreography before getting into the wheel. We got the wheel and we videotape it with iPhones or whatever we can. We start cutting it together with boards or whatever, and then when
we got the wheel. We got the wheel about two weeks before shooting because it was so expensive, there was a lot of fights of getting it done. There's such huge elements of engineering to actually complete it. Two weeks before is when Chris started to actually choreograph within that. So this we could have shipped the bed like, we could have spent all this money and it wouldn't have
been good. We had no idea, but Chris and I just sort of looked at each other and we're like, you just fucking figure it out, because I don't want to have to turn to my line producer and say, sorry, it doesn't work. But we knew that there was that risk, and we just don't tell everybody else.
That Ron, you must no doubt.
And then we just dump it on Myron, Ye say Maron, you must have great rhythm, like when the dance parties happened, you must be front and on the dance floor.
Because literally, like from Garden State to Wicked bro like, everything has a rhythm and everything is you know, we've been listening to John and we've been listening to Zach talk about the process of making and everything. But then you're given this huge puzzle and of course you have help from the directors and everything, and it's now here's my vision. Make it work.
Well, you know what I mean, make it, make it.
When I watch it, I wanted to feel like I wanted to feel like how I saw it in my head. That is so much pressure, dude, so much pressure. Well can you talk about that, just to rewind a little bit.
You know, when I when I met Zach, I was so excited by the script he had written because I felt this emotion, I felt this this kinship with this character. And while making the film, it was first about the heart and wearing your heart on your sleeve, and then the music was secondary. And of course I loved musicals growing up. I loved, you know how Ashby films. I loved films that had a lot of source of music John Hughes films all that, But it was first about
the heart. And so when I got to work on Garden State and I get to apply my love for music, it was mostly about how does that support the motion? And then when I got to work on more complicated things like In the Heights and Crazy Rich Asians and then Wicked, it all started with a heart and then the rhythm and all that stuff afterwards just came from out of the emotion of like what what what was I trying to evoke emotionally through dance or through character
or through music. And and so Zach came at the right time of the career, you know, he did train me in some ways, and then and then and then when I found when I found John, it was this further exploration about how do I, how do I sincerely like express heart without it feeling cynical or something I don't know what it was. But then to use dance and music, and then the rhythm just comes out of something internally that has to do with just expressing this emotion.
It has, But you must get so much, like just to stick with the library example, there must be so much much footage. I can't believe how you you know, on an indie there's a finite amount of footage. I'm just imagining it's so challenging for you to go, well, all of these shots, I mean so many of these shots are beautiful for this moment. How do I decide what to go to where?
Yeah, I mean John shoots a lot of he has sometimes in some of these big numbers who have three cameras going at once, just to just to make sure he's not missing something or has a little piece that we can use somewhere in the edit. And again it's just I really pride myself of just watching everything and just being really patient with learning the footage, and because
there is some kind of nugget or kernel. I remember when we first worked togere Zachaus, It's like, you got to make sure you watch everything because there might be just that one little piece of improv.
Or so what I always do what I always do, And I'm directing Shrinking now, and I'm still worried about it. When I'm directing Shrinking even is like we just we keep the camera rolling and we're riffing around, and I'm always worried that the editor is going to miss something that's it's at the end of take seven, and it was just one take of it. And so I'm always like, you watched everything, right, you watch everything.
Let's take a break.
We'll be right back after these fine words. One thing I wanted to ask you with a number, like defining gravity. You know, so much of this movie was practical, but in Defining Gravity you obviously have a lot of visual effects. How do you cut something so effectively when so much of it isn't going to be there until you've locked picture?
Do you know what I mean? Like that whole sequence in the mirror and all of that, the whole all the whole climax of the end of the movie, how do you how do you cut that with so much green screen footage and and stuff you know isn't going to gonna You have to use your imagination, really use your imagination.
You really have to imagine in the building in the background, you know, moving with her. But at the end of the day, you know, you again, you're really focused on performance, you know, and focused on you know, you know, Cynthia, and then looking at this this one, I forget the the cast members named the little girl looking at her, Yeah, and then you know, just focusing on the performance and
then imagining everything else. And then you're of course pacing that stuff out, and then you know, you start to get things like post viz in there, and you get like, you know, really crappy versions of a building flying in the background, or you know, a cutout version of a monkey chasing her. But ultimately it's just again just really focusing on the performance and then just trying to use
your imagination. I mean, you you Donald, you talk about all these films like Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back, and I was always thinking about these movies when I was cutting this movie, you know, just like I was just so happy I finally got a chance to work with a s geeky side in myself that I've always wanted to do these movies, these really big epic films, and now I get this chance. I was like, Okay,
what would Spielberg do, what would Lucas do? Like what you know, what, you know, what kind of shot would he want to cut to?
You?
You know, when the balloon is going up in the air and then the you know cascades, you know, uh, you know, fiery down to the ground, and.
I just I would be like, what would you do Myron?
Do you ever do you ever call maron you were cutting? I'm assuming while they were shooting, do you ever call John and be like, hey, you know'd be great. You don't have this, it'd be great if you got this.
I mean, it's usually a series of texts that I ignore.
I mean, what's what is nice?
You know?
I was in London for eight months during the shoot, and it was over one hundred and fifty five days, and you know, to be there and then I can actually walk downstairs to the set and say, hey, can
I show you this piece? And you know, I think we might be missing here or are you okay if I ask second unit to pick up something, you know, And sometimes like on the balloon chase scene, we're kind of like figuring that scene as John was still shooting, Like he shot one version of this of the scene, and then we were like, maybe there should be a ticking clock with the with the roof closing, So then we we, uh we kind of I developed it with
the effects and then I presented to John and John's like, okay, this kind of works, this we could change and then we then he shot principal and second unit again, and so it's nice to be there, to be able to not affect production but just be involved.
In it, you know, to have money. That's all that is rich people, I know.
I mean just for those of for our listeners who don't know film production, I mean, this is just filmmaking on the largest scale. Second unit is a whole other unit that's shooting stuff that doesn't involve the stars. So forming to be able to like, hey, do you mind if I have second unit go off and shoot this? That's pretty bougie.
But I'll tell you what the best part about working with someone like Mayra and you really did, Zach. I don't know how you guys got to this, but finding those little in between moments intakes like that's to me was what I've been always looking for because I love finding things with our actors.
You know.
The hardest part I think about directing is getting used to not being in control all the time. When you're making your little things, you are literally in control all your time. I'm telling my friends to grab the thing at this time and whatever itever. But when you start to get into the bigger movies, you need you need people, and you need them to make it better than you ever could. If it's what you could imagine in your bedroom, then it's not good enough, and so you're con instantly.
I think you have to have the fundamentals right, your intention of the story, where what the architecture is.
How you want these characters unfold.
Then if you're going to be truly collaborative, the actors bring a whole new perspective to that.
At a certain point.
I always say, like, we can plan, plan, plan, but when you start making the movie, the movie starts speaking back to you, and you better be listening. And that's where Myron comes in, because he's the ultimate listener. He's getting footage that I haven't even shared how I think it's being cut. He hasn't even seen boards of some
of these things that's in my head. I don't even share boards with people on set, really because I just want to feel like we're just playing in most instances, and I want the freedom to be able to do
that and not have checkboxes. But then I dump it to Myron and he has to actually figure it out himself and go where instinctually it feels right in the performances themselves, or with the camera work or whatever it is, and so for me that reset and you have to do that reset several times in this movie to find the best version. Is takes experience, It takes trust with each other, within you yourself.
But that's my favorite part is that you just don't know.
Yeah, And one thing you're saying that it applies to all filmmakers who are listening, whether you're about to direct a several hundred million dollar movie or you're going to direct your first short film. And you've spoken a lot about this, John, is reliance on your collaborators and trust in your collaborators and not needing to be the one who has the best idea. That's something I really had to grow into when I made Garden State. I was like, I have to be the one. This is my movie,
I wrote it. I have to be the one who has the best idea. And little by little, you know, Larry Sure, the legendary DP would be like, you know, I know you want to put the camera here, but look at it over here, and I'd be like, wow, that is cool. Or Myron would cut some sequence and I'd be like, holy shit, that's not how I didn't think you were going to put I didn't I wanted to put the Simon and Garf Fogus song on the movie. I didn't think it was going to go here. That's
I've got goosebumps all over my whole body. And what you're saying with all your collaborators on set, that's that's something I'm still I'm still doing. We were improving a scene and shrinking the other day and we had cut and as we were moving on to change the setup, the DP riffed a punchline to a joke and I went, that's the why didn't you fucking see that earlier? That's the funniest joke we've come up with. And and he was like, ah, it's too late. I go, no, no, no,
roll it again. We're gonna go again and do the dp's joke. And that does take a lot of time for you to get to a place where I can where I can have my ego be relaxed and be open to like whoever has the best idea wins, you know.
And it's a balance too, because you know, you do have to lead the group of course a horizon, and yet you have to be open enough to discover the better things that come about and that's that is a difficult thing, and I you know, you struggle with it the whole time, no matter what, like even when score comes in and the score isn't exactly what you've lived with in the temp and then you start to feel like,
well I really wanted that be. But then they're offering you something and if you're not listening to it, and maybe they're wrong, and you have to be aware when they're wrong and get you back on course.
But there are but there are plenty of moments.
Where where they're actually itching at something that or a symptom of something that you need to address.
I'm gonna say too that are probably going to get me in a lot of trouble too.
Oh god, see he's gotten comfortable. Wait you need Daniel. Wait, Daniel, come back on when when Donald, when Donald says something inappropriate, U Daniel shakes his head and he knows the stop with one.
Thank goodness for digital chip in the camera now instead of film because all of these things that you guys, Daniel don't do.
That that's not controversial.
Because all of these things that you guys are I thought.
You're going to be like, can I get Cynthia's number?
No, but thank goodness for that because now you can afford to go back and do things that you couldn't do before, back in the day when it was film and you had this is the amount of film we have for the for the for the movie, yo, So we can't just go back to the other setup and shoot.
That's one, Zach, you told me a story once.
This is the other thing that I thought was amazing and is when you were filming Going in Style and Alan Arkin Arkin was called Alan Aldo, that's the dude from ash Alan Arkin. He was on the bench and they with the love interest in the show, and they were, uh, you know, going back and forth. They had a line and you didn't know if you got it or anything like that.
And some of the.
Magic was actually in the in between takes where they're just talking as the camera is you know, settling and they're getting shots and everything like that, and he's looking at her and he's giving her looks and she's giving him looks. And a lot of that information wasn't present while you were shooting the thing, but actually came after it was shot, and those things wound up in the movie.
Well, that was that was that scene you're talking about it was an example where I when it was over, I was like, oh Jesus, I didn't I didn't crack the scene and were out of time, and I was not operating on a Wicked like budget where it was like, well, we're going to reshoot that next week and figure it out. So I handed it off to Myron and was like, I don't know, can you make something out of this?
And Myron did. Myron found those moments, And I think that there's so much there's so much to be found in the unexpected and just letting the camera roll and letting people continue to talk and riff. And that example you're giving is is that they had such a nice banter and friendship those two actors on set that there were little magical moments in just watching them interact that we actually ended up using in a cut of that scene.
I'm interested to know, Like for you, Zach too, is because you're you've been on both sides, Like when you started directing, did that change the way you saw acting, what your role was as an actor on set of being present and what you are trying to control, or did that make you more aware of like, oh shit, my performance could be changed very dramatically.
That's a great question. Uh. What I felt was, you know, sometimes I just need a shot of you looking out the window, like like, you don't need to do all this thinking you're doing and overthinking and get tears in your eyes because your dad screamed at you, just like I just need a shot of you looking out the window and I and that really helped me as an actor because it is such a collaborative collage on the on.
On the other side of things, there's times where I thought I really brought it, and I see a cut of my performance and I think, oh, you you you
didn't make me. I remember the pilot of Scrubs, Bill was cutting the Lawrence was cutting out air from a dramatic moment to make the show so tight, And I was like I even had the audacity at that, at that young of an age to be like you, you made me look like not as good of an actor, because the right thing to do there is to take a pause and digest that information and not just speak right away. So there are moments where where you're like,
why did you You know? It does make me as an actor when I'm sometimes feel like there's a better performance than the one you cut of me, and I can sometimes I'm in a position where I can say, hey, why didn't you use that take? Or hey, when you play that on my back, I think it's weird or a lot of times with comedy, because I do think that's the thing I have the most experience on. I promise you that joke will play better better if you cut to me for the reaction or cut to the
other person. The joke doesn't land on the person saying, it's going to land on the reaction for the other person. That kind of thing just has become natural in my body.
Yeah, I mean that also has so much of like what if myron doesn't know how to cut a joke, then the joke will not work. It doesn't matter how good the performance is. Or you set back and you let the actor play the joke out and then you know.
So it's always like.
It's funny when you go down and you test somebody test a comedy and you go, why isn't that joke working? It was so funny on set. And then it can literally be removing some frames or it can be literally what I'm saying, where you're trying to play the joke on the person who said the funny thing, whereas then you discover the audience laps way harder when you cut to the dead pan reaction of the person listening and
you just didn't see it that way. By the way, were you able to test this movie or because it was so high profile? Was that helpful to you? The testing process?
It was? It was, It was really helpful because you know, well, first of all, we do a series of smaller screenings, like almost like any other film, you know, where you're testing it on your friends and like groups of like five and ten and fifteen, and then you're you get more confident over time, and then you're testing on like
two hundred really close friends. Yeah, close friends. But and then and then you go out to like we went out to Arizona and Vegas and San Diego and you know they had to you know, sign in DA's and all that stuff. But uh, you know, we wanted to make sure that the film was going to work for a general audience. And I think that was really brave of Mark Platt and Universal to allow us to do that.
And yeah, it's so helpful, and you know, I know a lot of times are these huge movies, these huge ips. They don't want to do it just because they don't even want to risk anything anyone going online and saying I saw an early cut and all that stuff. But I think I think it would be so helpful for you guys to get the feedback, especially with a musical comedy.
Yeah.
I think some directors don't like to share because they want their work and that's what it is. And and I just think for us, I think it's it's not necessarily what the audience says back because most of their.
Solutions are not good.
They don't know the architectures, they don't have solutions, but the consistency of the symptoms of something, whether they don't, oh they don't, they're not rooting for this character. So it's not necessarily in that scene that's the problem. It's yeah, well we need to like empathize with that character way earlier. So I think we need that data in order to find solutions.
I think it's the most valuable thing is just sitting with the audience. I mean, you can feel when they're lost, you can feel when they're bored, you can feel the jokes that aren't playing, And that's more valuable than anything they write on the cards.
Yes, that's part of my question. When do you know you did it? You know, when do you know? So you completed the.
Movie Friday night of opening weekend? Probably right?
Really is that when it happens? Okay, So here's an example. I remember when I saw I Remember the Titans for the first time. I got to show were you in that?
Donald?
I was. It's a little movie by the day.
It is Denzel Washington in that.
Denzel Washington is the star of it. I'm in it also with Denzil I have quite a few scenes with them.
By the Yeah, I've heard about that.
I hold my own, John, I hold my own Anyway. The point is.
I remember holding a small group of people in a theater. Jerry Bruckheimer and then were nice enough to allow me to have my family come and see the movie. Some of my cousins and my parents were in a big musical theater. They were in a theater growing up for me growing up, So I watched my parents.
Do musical theater. That's what I should say.
So a lot of the repertory company came, or a lot of the company came, and we're watching it and they're so into it, and there was that moment where it was like, holy shit, I did it. I did exactly what I told my mom I was gonna do. I left the house and I fucking became an actor, and I'm in a movie that everybody's gonna fucking go see.
I know it for a fact.
I could feel it right now as just by the way everyone in the room is behaving. Some people look at when you you know, artists, when musical artists go into the studio and they're making a song and there's that moment where it's like, oh shit, we made a hit before it even hits the radio. They just know when at I'm asking all three of you, at what point, Myron, John, Zach are you Myron where you're like, Okay, this is all I can do. I think this is it. John,
where you're like, holy fuck, we made it. Zach, where you're like there was a point where you saw a garden state and you were like, holy shit, everybody's gonna love this shit. There's gotta be a moment.
Well, there's started. That's a great question, and I want John to go first, but I'll just say that there's two different moments. Really, there's holy shit I made something I'm proud of and be holy shit, the audience likes this. So John, what was that for you?
Well?
I remember it more clearly for crazy rich Asians because I did not have any big expectations for that.
And I love that movie.
I loved making that movie. When we were there, it felt like something special was happening. But I still held onto the idea that no one's ever seen this movie, but what we were doing was the right thing to do.
I when we.
Showed it to our first when we showed that movie to our first audience, and watching them fall in love with those characters who did not look traditionally like their romantic leads, and they were crying and doing and and following along.
These things that felt so specifically to me and my family.
And then they stayed in the lobby for like an hour afterwards just talking about it. To me, that meant everything we hadn't you know, we hadn't opened yet, but it felt like, Okay, we did our thing I think for and then in the Heights when we did in the Heights, I felt when we were making it, I literally said like this is the best I can do, Like I don't something is really working in this and
I don't know what it is. And then movie came out and nobody went to see it, and so I have had and then the critics loved it, and then nobody went to go see it.
So I had this like mental whiplash.
And so for Wicked, I made myself very prepared that it didn't matter how I felt about after it, that I was only focusing on process. I was only focusing on getting it to as best as we could. And then I had to like shield everything out. It was too painful in the heights, to be honest, and so I've kept it actually pretty far from me and have a second half.
So it's also like it's not done yet. So I'm thinking a little bit ahead.
I think at the AFI luncheon, when they showed the clip from they showed the clips from all the Oscar nominated movies or whatever, and they showed the end of Wicked, and all those scenes were amazing that from all the other movies. I was like, Oh, no, they're going to show a musical scene from our movie and it's going
to be like, oh, just a musical number whatever. But when they showed the end of Defying Gravity, that audience in that room connected so hard, and these are people who are jaded, and they clapped so loud and stood up what they hadn't done for anyone. And it just felt like, no matter what you give us or not give us or acknowledge, it makes you feel this. It
makes you feel And remember the Titans. I remember being in that audience, with that audience when they scored a touchdown, everybody was standing in the theater.
I'd never felt that.
I was like, we have that with defin if we can do that, and I think I said that to you, Myron, remember the Titans. There's a moment. If we can get people to stand up in that theater, that's like our goal. We get this beautiful gift to define Gravis. So I haven't fully let it in, but I've I left pieces, left pieces in yet so far.
I love it. I love it. Thank you.
I mean, it's well, certainly you know this is gonna sound silly, but in both Garden State, crazy Rich Asians in the Heights and Wicked, it's the same feeling I have when I finished the assembly. If I'm crying and feeling emotional and I'm feeling the same way on the mixing stage and in the theater, like I know, it's working and consistently with all those movies. I felt that over and over again. You know, of course it's nice when they're applauding at AFI, I mean that was an
incredible experience. Or even at the Oscars, you're.
Like sitularly like, oh my god, they playing a clip.
At the Oscars, you know, but it really is that very pure moment of like what it feels like when you see the first movie for the first time and you're like, oh my god, I'm just feeling deeply for these characters. This seems so special. I remember that first my first cup at Guarden State, are going to Sundance for the first time. It all felt like the same feeling. It just was like it just was on repeat. And so when that, you know, the first kind of Wicked
was before John saw. It was on my birthday like two years ago, and I just my assistants were in the room with me and we're just like just crying, and it was like just you know, card saying, you know, shot of monkeys missing here. But still it was just like this really ultimately just beautiful emotional experience.
Zachart Well for me, it was you know in Garden State, it was you know, Meyern and I cut that in my living room and so we were sitting there thinking, I think we made something really good, but we had no idea. And then I remember it got into Sundance and it played at the Eccles Theater and I introduced it and I went to the back of the theater and I just started sobbing. I just felt like, I
can't believe this happened. I can't believe we're here. I can't believe my first movie premiering at Sundance, and then it had such a reaction. It was really one of the greatest moments of my life. And you know, with my last film, A Good Person, I was so happy with it and so proud of it, and then you know, it didn't really have the theatrical reaction I wanted, and that was a really disappointing and similar to what John is saying about in the Heights, I really was felt
really sad that it didn't have the theatrical reaction. And then when it finally was free on Prime at Christmas, it was number one on Prime, and then all of these Christmas movies started coming in and I was like, oh, this is definitely gonna get kicked out of the top ten on Prime because of all these Christmas And it stayed in the top ten on Prime with just a Good Person and Christmas movies for like two weeks, and
the well, the executive at Amazon called me. She's like, do you know how many people are watching this movie when you're in the top five on Amazon Prime across the So then I finally felt like some vindication for it not performing well theatrically. But it's it's it's I had two more questions because I know you guys got to go, but I just wanted to say, Myron, I read that you it was your idea or John it
was a collaboration. But what was the decision process behind not just going hard cut to black after the big note, but having that boom boom boom boom, which I loved. Yeah, I thought that was rad And I know there's a.
Little story how she takes off don't don't don't don't dun.
I thought that was brilliant. What was the process of that?
Well? I uh so, okay, so of course you get ended on the war cry. I sometimes I.
Don't know it. I love that you called it a war cry.
Well that's what we got.
I'm gonna tell you. That's what you're saying.
Oh god, Donalds are not the note Sorry everybody not everybody? Yeah, well, at least listener. I think they already shot those part two donald.
Yeah, so that you know that. Of course, that's where you're supposed to end. I think when I was sometimes I so John oftentimes would say, you know, do you want to know my plan with a film, like how to cut a scene together? And I say, no, I don't want to know your plan because I want to play with the footage and just see, you know what do I come up with just that way? If I make mistakes or I just discover something from the course of editing, then that's great. And one of those things
was how to end the movie. And I had basically had a lot of you know, previews of like you know, Alfa but flying and and I was like, I want to use some of this footage. And so I during my first assembly, I actually went to my music editors and said, can we extend the music after the war Cry? And the music editors, of course, we are looking at me like I don't know if we should do that, and we're like no, no, no, just it's just me and you.
We're just we're just messing around a little bit. And it was like, yeah, okay, well are amazing editor music editors Jack Dolman and Katherine Wilson, they said, okay, we'll try to extend that, and then, of course, you know, kind of worked. And then I said, I literally said to Jack's like, can we try the two thousand and
one you know tippany hits to like help? And then I said to him, can we can we repeat the word down And it's just like no, no, no, we can't do any of this, Steven Schwartz, John, Everyone's gonna kill us. And I was like, just just try it, and so we did it. We workshopped the idea at my assembly stage,
and then I presented it to John. Little did I know, like, you know, eight months later, I'm watching the end of Tea at like vidiots, uh, and I'm watching and literally John Williams is doing these same Tippany hits like and so I think that something just in my my d NNA had told me to extend this moment, make it feel like this back to the Future Empire strikes Back, Cliffhanger ending, and then I presented John and you know, there's a lot of debate after you do these things,
you know whether it's the right idea, but you know, it ended up sticking.
I loved it.
He also was not in the room when I when I showed the movie to Steven Spielberg and I'm sitting there after in the dark with him and he turns to me and he says, I heard those e t TV.
I'm gonna say. Steven Spielberg was like, took that from me?
I was like, mine, where's mine?
I've never heard you? Did he actually say that?
Are you making that out?
That's the first time.
That's so wait but wait, John, did you re record the orchestra? Are those literally the timpany from No.
They're not there.
We were.
They were our own orchestra for Suresh Bilboard watching all the week and goes, oh, you took that from you?
So that ship. Oh god, But that's the highest compliment. That's the highest compliment when they when they actually know what you're doing. It's like, it's all right, last question.
That was a great moment.
That is one of my look there are so many moments in this movie that are my favorite moments. I was really worried about Popular. I didn't know how you were going to be able to do that define gravity. I you know, you have an imagination that succeeded that my imagination, but Popular. I was so worried about, how are they going to make this part funny?
How are they going hard?
Good?
That's funny, But that's the that's the piece in the play where if you missed that one, guess.
What, well, and you're in it and you're stuck in a dorm room and now you're really late in this movie. If you actually look at the architecture, do you really need Popular?
The song?
I'm not sure it moves anything for it. So we had to give reasons for it to be.
She had to be fucking on it on every thing and not again copying anything of Kristin, and the dorm had to have space and room for them to do it.
Was a lot.
When I was watching it, I was in the theater going, she's fucking hilarious, She's amazing.
I was watching this going, holy shit, Ariana Grande's doing exactly Look okay, so look, my kids love Victorious which is a television show that she was on back in the day.
And if you watch that show now, it's great.
It's a bunch of great performances from young actors and actresses and stuff like that. But the person that really stands out is Ariana, you know what I mean. She's the comic relief in it. She's the voice in it. So she's an actual person who's carrying it with her singing and everything. Everybody else is kind of dancing and singing too, but she's the star and you don't really notice it until you go back.
And watch it.
When I saw that she got this part, I was like, she's getting nominated for an Oscar. I was saying that before. I was saying that from the gate. Once the trailer came out, I was like, she's getting nominated. It's a rap.
When that part came up and I was like, all right, now, here's the thing.
Do you Ariana Grande's situation and you sing it with all of his soul and stuff, or do you stick to what the way it was? And the fact that she was able to find that middle and hit you still with the little riff here and there, you can't beat it, like I saw somebody say, I don't know where I'm going with this. I saw somebody on the internet say, look, ladies and gentlemen of the Wicked community, those of you who are going to go on and do Wicked on Broadway or off Broadway, please stick to
the way it is originally written. You don't have what it takes to do what Arianna and Sydneya did, like sickly like.
It's just it was so refreshing because we could have and I'm and I'm, and I'm and I'm and I'm you know, I'm. I just love the movie so much. But you can't.
You can't do the same movie as the play and expect everybody to be like, absolutely, you know that you did it.
It has to be something different. It has to be innovative. There has to, you know.
George Lucas is the king of saying this. If you're doing the same thing over and over again, you're not really making good movies. You're just making a movie. You gotta make it different in some way, and you found ways, thank you.
And and and. The theater experience is completely different than the cinematic experience in terms of the perspective of the audience like we had to uncover very early. Uh that when the audience sits in a theater, you're in with the world that's in front of you.
You're expecting a musical.
She comes into the bubble, she's like, Glinda is the host for the night, and then this and and then the odd girl drops in, the green girl, and then you laugh at the green girl, and then and then she has to win you over throughout through throughout, but you still.
Have Glinda as the host. In the movie. The audience is skeptical from the beginning, like, show me why I need to believe in a musical world. I don't even like musicals. And so you have this wall already.
And then the green girl drops in and everyone's singing around her, and she's looking around and she's the audience being like, what the fuck have I just dropped into? And why are all these people singing? And so her first words, uh in wizard and I did that really just happen? And she starts to sing. You're like, oh my gosh, she has a better singing like power than anybody in this movie.
And you're like, then you root for her, And it's through.
The medium of the actual way you're telling this story, and I think all those things. And then the brilliance of Ariana Grande is that, you know, you laugh at her in this movie because.
She's silly and crazy whatever. She's fully committed.
But by the time you get to the os Dust and she she sacrifices her own sort of what she thinks is important to be there just with her friend or this new friend. Then by the time you get to Popular, you're not laughing at her anymore. You're laughing
with her. And that transition because right before she says, it's not your fault, and you can see and in Cynthia's and this Myron's brilliance is that you see in Cynthia's eyes her like falling for this girl, like wow, she sees the world so simply and it has value. And then Glinda says, oh, look, it's tomorrow, like hope in a bottle. And then she gets to sing popular, and now you're in love with them. You're in love with her, and now popular comes across as like just
fun and it's driving your their relationship closer. So we had to recognize the different medium in order to uncover the things we need to do in in this media, in this, in this movie, to make it work.
Actually, when you were such the perfect person for the job.
I'm so thank you.
I'm so glad that you I'm so glad you both got the assignment. I can't wait to watch the next part. I love for good. That song is just one of the most beautiful songs ever written.
I'm excited. Essay these motherfuck is it going to be fighting each other and everything?
John?
Did you ever did you ever see the video of Kristin Chenowith at the Hollywood Bowl calling up a school teacher to sing for good with her?
No, I've seen some of those kind of videos, but I haven't seen that one in particular.
Well, I think I think it's safe to assume it was a plant and she knew because just go the audience, go watch this, and John, please admire and watch it. It's it's Cynthia Revea at the Hollywood Bowl and she says, I need someone to sing for good with me, and she calls up a woman from the audience, and the woman says, she says, what do you do? She says,
I actually teach singing. I'm a school teacher. And everyone applauds and The woman proceeds to give the most breathtaking rendition of the song with Kristen Cynthia Rebo with Kristin Chenniwan. Yeah did I say Cynthia. I meant Kristin. Anyway, it's just a little thing I wanted to share with you because.
I will say about the Hollywood bull Is, you did a video there for Joshua Raiden and I love that video.
Oh, John, thank you.
And there's a simplicity with the light that you did with it. I was just so beautiful.
And I you know in our end credits when we talk about the lights, that was part of the inspiration. I was like, oh yeah, that like that video, like that Zach did. And so anyway that that video stays very is in my brain a lot, and you.
Don't have a lot of them, John, But if you want to come to the Garden State concert, I'm sure my boy can hook it on.
Myron.
Yes, that's I don't know if you're I don't know if you're in La on March twenty ninth, John Chew, But Myron's going to be there, and uh, I know a fellow that can get you in.
Let's see.
Yeah, I'll make my I'll make my stage.
And so I know you like both Garden State and things shot and things shot, an outdoor amphitheaters. Last question, Donald, and I heard you're doing Joseph, and I know that fifty year old men might be too, but listen, Jesus no is not in Joseph. She's fucking ruining my pitch already. She's a superstar. My bad, My bad, All right now, now we're down to forty five seconds. Okay, do you
want Donald to night audition? Even though we're fifty and most of the characters probably aren't fifty, we we would love to. I had to pitch that Donald and I were going to do Joseph on Broadway and we were going to alternate all of the principal roles, and.
That is not going to work. He's nodding like he's nodding like, oh, did you really interesting?
Anyway?
I love I love Joseph so much, and I want to do I I wanted I want to do something that is just ridiculous and crazy and and it's south and for some reason, I don't know, Joseph has always been that for me, but also about a dreamer or someone who's dreaming of something for them.
I also feel like the show is so much better than the treatment it gets. It's always been treated like it's always been treated like a Vegas act, and and I think that the show is so much better and smarter than that. So I'm glad it's in your hands.
I'm gonna say this, and then we're gonna let you go.
He's gotta go.
I say this is Zach all the time. You guys both should be directing Star Wars and or Marble. I'm just gonna put it out there.
I'm just gonna put it out there.
What if I told you that they're onto things that are more important to us than that. All right, guys, thank you for your time. We know you're so busy. Thank you so much, thank you.
Thank you.
Guys.
Well, we were almost in Joseph and you had to ruin it.
I didn't ruin anything.
You had to make a Jesus joke, and then you allowed him to pivot off of us.
Look, my point is this this back.
We have to be persistent like the ice If we want to be a part of his world, you have to be persistent like the fucking ice cream truck and consistently be outside his window.
I want y'all to know that it's fucking March eighteenth in New York and the fucking ice cream truck is back. Anyway, that was amazing. Huh. That was one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. But two people at the top of their game.
I was about to say this, this will go down in history ten years from now. Hopefully this age is like fine wine and you and I both keep our nose clean. But we just had, in my opinion, the next big blockbuster director on this podcast, and I think in ten years he will do. I look at him like Spielberg, and I look at him like, uh, like Lucas in a lot of ways, because he's very innovative
and he's doing something different with musical and fantasy. I imagine Joseph in the Technicolored dream Coat is gonna be freaking outrageous.
Bro, He's so smart. I love what he was saying when he was talking about how like OZ, everything in OZ is meant to be a distraction and it's perfect, and then the Z is alphabe it cuts through the perfection of OZ.
I was like, oh shit, it's refreshing to see someone. I mean, you're very much like this too. The way you talk about directing and everything like that and telling stories, you could tell he's a fan of the stories that he's telling.
Let's go back to the fact that my Josh Raiden video at the Hollywood Ball inspired him.
Not only that, dude Wicked being so good, I would remember the Titans, bro always remember that.
He remember the Titans. If we could have that feeling like that.
I don't know, did no, no, no? He basically my Josh Raiden music video is the reason Wicked was so good.
I'm going to go and say the reason to remember the Titans. Remember the Titans is the reason why Wicked was so good because he wanted to get that feeling that you got when they scored a touchdown and remember the Titans, how the audience stood up in a movie theater.
He wanted that for Wicket.
You know what I think about what you just said?
What eat these bowls?
All right? What a show? Joelle? Thank you for coordinating all that. I know it was a tricky to get it all scheduled.
That was most impressive. And the fact that he stayed on for as long as he stayed on too. He stayed on for over an hour.
So thank you to Marin Christine and John Chew and audience. If you're listening and you're gonna be in La March twenty ninth, come check out my benefit for the midnight mission the Garden State twentieth Anniversary Concert. And if you can't make it, buy a ticket about to stream it on starting April sixth, You can buy the tickets right now at veeps dot com. Every single cent of your streaming ticket purchase goes to the charity. And also you
can buy merch there. The merchant is even available. This is a little podcast insider scoop. The Merchant isn't even available to buy yet. If you go to the veep site, they've they've they've got it up there, so you can buy it already, all right inside scool, I love you guys.
What a great show. Eight stories.
That show we made about a bunch of talks and nurses and janitor. I said, here's the stories net you all should know. So Ganda round here up, Yander, round here up.
Seat show wis