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Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm vet Gente Lay and.
I'm Rosha Peccerreiro. Today we're going to do things a little bit differently on Facing Evil because we are going to have a guest on that is somewhat of a.
Victim of this case.
She doesn't like to call herself a victim, but you're going to understand why once we get into the discussion.
Yeah, and there's going to be a mic drop at the very end, so wait for that. But the case that we're talking about is the San Francisco witch killings that place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty three. The two killers were Michael Bear Carson and Susan Carson, and they murdered at least three people. And our guest today is doctor Jen Carson. She is Michael Carson's daughter.
Yes, that's right, and doctor Jen Carson has an incredible story of resilience and survival, and she's one of the most inspiring humans I have the pleasure of knowing. I'm so honored to have her here with us today. I'm facing evil, but first our producer Trevor is going to walk us through today's case.
The couple labeled the San Francisco Witch Killers Michael Bear Carson and his second wife Susan smiling is the camera rule.
They're wicked. They're just wicked. He ran into the Carsons that were traveling through and they were killing witches, and she said that Clark was a witch and they therefore killed him.
I remember thinking, I'm the daughter of the devil.
The San Francisco witch killings were a series of connected murders that took place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty three. The first victim was twenty three year old Karen Barnes, who was found dead in her apartment in March of nineteen eighty one. She had been stabbed thirteen times, wrapped in a blanket and hidden inside the basement. Then, in May of nineteen eighty two, the burnt remains of twenty six year old Clark Stephens were found in Humboldt County, California.
Stephens had been shot to death before his body was burned. Finally, in January of nineteen eighty three, thirty year old John Charles Hallier picked up two hitchhikers near Bakersfield. The two hitchhikers apparently stabbed and shot Hewlier by the side of the road. A passer by witnessed this murder and called the police. The two assailants fled, but crashed their car,
and then they were apprehended. The two were named Michael bhar Carson and Susan Carson, and it was soon revealed that they were responsible for all three murders, and perhaps even more, they admitted to killing Karen Barnes, who was their roommate, because Susan believed Karen was a witch. After killing her, they fled, eventually settling on a marijuana farm in Alder Point, California. This is where they met Clark Stevens,
a fellow farmer. Stephens and others believed that the Carsons were anarchists who were preparing for an inevitable nuclear apocalypse. After a dispute with Stevens, Michael Carson shot and killed him. After fleeing once more, the Carsons left behind a manifesto. In it, they alluded to plans to assassinate President Ronald Reagan, and thus they became major suspects in a secret service investigation once they were captured following the murder of John
Hell You're on the Highway. The Carsons claim to have traveled to Europe and back. They are suspects in over a dozen other unsolved murders in Europe and in the United States. They were eventually convicted for all three murders and are both still serving sentences of seventy five years to life. Another victim in this case was Jen Carson, Michael's daughter from a previous marriage. Jen's mother, Lynn, divorced Michael when Jen was only three years old. Michael remarried
Susan the following year. Jen described her stepmother as quote the wicked witch. According to Jen, Susan refused to feed Jen when she came to visit. Susan would also tell Jen that she was the devil, that she was going to hell, and that she deserved to die. Fearing for her daughter's life, Lynne packed up and took Jen to live with her uncle. Only later did Jen learn of the terrible things her father had done. And so who were Michael Bhare Carson and Susan Carson? What led them
down a murder crime spree in the nineteen eighties? And how does one come to terms with being close family to such a cold blooded killer?
So today, on Facing Evil, we are so honored to have doctor Jen Carson joining us. Doctor Carson has shared her inspiring journey which has taken her from being a suicidal child of a homicidal parent to a mental health advocate. She speaks regularly at mental health awareness and suicide prevention events, and has been featured on CNN and PR.
The Today Show, the BBC. The list goes on and on.
I'm only naming a few here at Komo May Welcome to Facing Evil, Doctor Jen Carson.
Hi, how are you.
I'm so excited to be with you both today.
We're so excited to have you, doctor Jen.
I just I love the both of you, and I'm so glad your family is my life.
So we feel the exact same way.
So before we get to, of course, the amazing work that you do, now, can you just share a little bit with us about your childhood and where you started and where you came from.
Yeah, no, definitely. So my parents met in the counterculture movement in college and were involved in war protests and the music and so on. For those of you who are familiar with the Chicago Seven trial, they were in the audience. Wow, they were at the sly In Family Stone Riot and Grant Park in Chicago. So kind of like they were just kind of right in the mix of things in that late nineteen sixties, and they really bonded over their love of you know, history and philosophy
and so on. And my father looked like he had a really great career ahead of him. It was his hope to become an academic professor, and my mom also to be an educator. He came from an incredible middle class family and there was not a traumatic background, okay, and so you had a you know, kind of great
future ahead of him. And after I was born and my mom had finished their degrees at University of Iowa and went to graduate school at University of South Carolina, engaged in a program to work in recently desegregated schools. So kind of really rooted in civil rights, right, yeah, and they were teaching and an elementary school where you know, kind of all the white teachers had taken off, and so they were serving there. And then soon after they moved to the Phoenix area to serve in a similar
program with Native American youth. And that time my father's mild min illness became more severe. His recreational drug use went from also mild to severe. My mother, after almost a decade, chose to divorce him, and he did then receive joint custody. And then one fateful night, he went to a party at a woman named Susan's house. She was a wealthy divorcee in Scottsdale, Arizona, and had had a huge divorce settlement and was kind of having a midlife crisis and he went to a party at her
house and he never left. He and Susan were together and they sold all her assets from the divorce and decided to go in a worldwide spiritual journey of some sort of some kind of pilgrimage. But before they left, they did a lot of damage. During my joint custody visits, I had some pretty horrific visits. That is when the literal horror movie of my early life started.
That's a whole lot to unpack, Like to start from such a powerful place, you know, of doing such good and then to fall into this craziness. Would you say that it's when he met Susan that changed.
I feel like a lot of people in this case boil it down to like a Jimmy Buffett line, which is, you know, some people say there's a woman to blame, and so a lot of people see this case as the traditional dominant and submissive and that my father is submissive in this and I now know of him being violent prior definitely see some you know, evidence of treating me quite well due to narcissism. You know, I look like him and I was a mini himn versus you know,
what we would consider love. And so I just don't that narrative that a lot of people have around this case. When they meet she had had some long term mental illness with some kind of psychosis and some hallucinations that had been controlled by medication, and so in my mind, he's almost using her delusions as an excuse to be violent.
To act out.
Yeah, you know, she did horrifically abuse me. I have had lifelong flashes of her dunky me underwater, and there was an incident where she scratched open my back and there were five nail marks that looked like a where wolf had come at me. That is when my mother decided to take off. Was that incident. Prior to that she had concerns about me being at their home. Sure, but she was absolutely petrified and essentially did a custodial kidnapping at that point to protect you, to protect me.
And we were then in hiding for a good part of five years.
Oh wow, Jen.
Wow, And no one believed my mother. She went to everyone and said, he's these people are going to kill someone. They're going to kill someone. She went to police, she went to attorneys, she went to her family, she went to his family, She went to everyone, and they were remembering the brilliant boy in college. You know, they weren't seeing.
They didn't want to believe.
You know, he'd moved across the country and a lot of people in his life, you know, and so that's you know, kind of understandable. But it's just she was incredibly, incredibly isolated, and you know, the heroic part of the story is that she remains resolute when no one on earth believes her. It's like the whole world has gas lit her. Wow, I mean not one person. It's like
we've all been everyone. Yeah, we've all been in toxic relationships where an individual, but it's like the whole world has gas lit her, and she stays resolute and these people will kill me and my child. We must be safe.
Your mother protected you without a doubt and got you out of that situation.
And I think that's one of the bonds I have with the two of you, because you had a mother who was an extraordinary individual. My mother's complicated, as all mothers are. Yes, I think we've bonded on having that extraordinary mother, you know, So I think that that's powerful.
I just have to tell you, I am so just blown away by your honesty and your truth and your authenticity. And I do know that you are so open about having suicidal ideations. If I can ask, what was the catalyst for that? Was it when Susan, you know, started the abuse? Was it when you were whisked away?
I mean?
Or was it all the perfect storm?
So definitely, you know, I had experienced extensive trauma and abuse. I briefly mentioned, you know, the custody visits, but there was so much more exposure to interpersonal violence, you know, trauma. My mother is working two jobs. I then become that feral gen.
X product of a single mom.
Yeah, also survived some sexual abuse in childhood, and so there'd been some layers in trauma. And people like to say, you know that I became suicidal because my father's arrest. My father's arrest was the last straw, right, So because you know, at age nine, I become the child of a serial killer. This is not something that happens to me when I'm a fully formed adult, right nine, and I'm like, do I have monster genes? Do Am I going to be a monster? Am I going to kill people?
And so you know, I definitely perceived that this could be inherited and you know, and that I would end up like this. So you know, I was incredibly fearful, and that's when I started the long battle with both suicidality and then Russia. You and I have talked extensively about my eating disorder. Yeah, it's so important to be trauma informed and say to someone not what's wrong with you,
but what happened to you? Right? So you know, I can buy all of those things, honestly, but it has been lifelong journey to keep myself alive.
You said so many things that you know, obviously we can relate to because of our family. And I go back and I think about myself, you know, when I first found out, and I just I thought the same thing, like, oh my god, I feel so hooky, so dirty, so whatever inside because of George Hodell, you know, because what we've been told, because of what he's been done. But what I want to ask you is, so what tools did you use to pull yourself out, to pull yourself up,
to walk out of that pain? You know, I know it's something that we all have to work on every single day, but can you give our listeners an example of what you did to get through it?
Do you remember the Princess Diana. It was called the Revenge Dress. Yeah, you know it's public that you know, Charles has now been unfaithful, hurt for her for a decade, and she puts on what's called the revenge dress and she walks and you see her so resolute, and we know she battled really severe depression needing disorder as well, and you see her and she walks, she walks into this event. She's wearing the supposed revenge dress. So I'll be honest with you, there were there were a lot
of people along the way that helped me. You know. There was you know, uh my third grade teacher, Sylvia Kay So I recently reunited with.
Yes, I saw that, thank you.
There's you know girl Scouts. First and foremost always is you know, my my stepfather of thirty nine years. But unfortunately I me, to be honest with you, there were a lot of family members that were like, you know, pretty much like poor Jenny, this poor Jenny that they would say that, and they would say, you know, essentially I was going to end up a drug addict and homeless, and you know, they just thought I was going to
not amount to anything. And so, to be perfectly honest with you, showing them success, I was that walking revenge dress for a while and I would just go and some of these like negative, cruel, toxic relatives are are gone, right, and so here I am. I you know, I got a doctorate. They always made fun of my weight of now you know, have the weight kind of under control, you know, but it's like it's interesting because just now in midlife I've been shedding that over a while. Yeah,
and I've been living a more purpose driven life. But I would say for a good chunk of my journey, I was just like resolute to just just show them.
To prove them all wrong.
Correct, prove them all wrong. But now in this second part of my life, I really want to be driven by other things. Yeah, Now, I would say that would be what was driving me, maybe personally, definitely in my work, you know, as you know I'm a suicide hotline manager. I mean that is absolutely rooted in that help works. I received help, and so I want to utilize these
gifts I have. But definitely there's there. I think there's part of me that's still holding on to that, and I would really like to see myself as I move forward to let that go and not be the walking revenge dress.
Right, just walk in your own power.
Just seek joy and light and realize the best revenge is to live well, but also just to let go of revenge, like that's not a thing. I've actually started meeting with an expert, one of the world's experts on forgiveness.
Beautiful, can you just tell us, because you did say earlier that you know you have a history with our family. So can you tell our listeners how you actually connected with our great uncle Steve.
Yeah. So I wrote in the newspaper that the child of a prominent serial killer was on suicide watch in a hospital after their parent was arrested. And I sat down and I wrote that personal letter, and my best friend said, you have to publish this. This is really powerful. So it was published in Reclare magazine, which was a fashion magazine. Yeah, there was like a French, a Dutch, you know, German issue, Spanish issue. So it was in
all of those issues. And I was getting contacts from people all over the world and they were emailing Marie clareen as being emailed to me. And this this was prior to social media.
Yeah, two thousand and seven, right, that's when you publicly came out as the child of a serial killer.
And I did so prior to other prominent children of serial killers that now speak publicly. And so I was one of the I believe I was the first person. I was the first to go public. So I needed some sort of support to navigate this. And then after I read your uncle's book, we became pen pals and at the time I was working as a special education school counselor, and I think he was just retiring from law enforcement. And this was like seventeen years ago that we started to be penn and he like just I
am endlessly blown away of the kindness of strangers. And you know, he has been kind and throughout the years for seventeen years, I have randomly reached out for him, to him for help off and on, and he has always provided it. And he's just been this kind of like long distance friend.
Jen.
I didn't actually meet our great uncle Steve until five minutes before we were on The Doctor Phil Show in twenty nineteen.
I have an older relationship with him than you do.
Yes, you do, which I think is hysterical.
Quite amazing. He's quite amazing. He's really something.
You are going above and beyond to pay it forward to others, but also to prove to yourself that you are worthy, and that in itself is huge. It's a lesson for all of us, you know, to learn from.
I so appreciate that you brought power into the space because Yvetam so often asked why I have not changed my last name. You know, my father, Michael bar Carson did not own that last name, right, there were ancestors before having that last name, and you know, and so I have chosen to keep my name. And you know, I'm asked so many kind of weird questions of you know, do I feel guilty? No, I didn't harm anyone, and I was eight. So my father's parents were extraordinary people.
My grandmother, Jewish American woman, was threatened for teaching African American literature in the sixties in Tulsa. She was extraordinary.
Wow.
Wow.
She was a World War two veteran. Her husband, my grandfather, was a World War two veteran. He was a college educated engineer and worked for the Department of Energy and was an energy advisor in the White House. These were incredible people. And so I think that people can't wrap their head around nuance that you can be good people and your child can be violent, yeah, or you know, you can have a parent that's a literal human predator.
I mean, my father is a monster. You know, when you read about vampires and were wolves and what have you, if you read the history of these origins, there would be a village in Hungary and there would be a mutilated body and they didn't know that there were human predators, so we invented the were wolves and the vampire.
You knows.
So my parent is a literal monster and I'm.
Flawed are but I am.
Certainly not a monster, and I'm a good and kind person. So people just can't wrap their head around these things. They want things to be very simplistic, and life isn't simplistic.
That was a huge question, I'm sure sure to a lot of people. Why didn't she change her name? And you just hit the nail on the coffin.
There's a couple questions people always ask me, and they want these reallys that you know, why did your father become violent? Was it his wife? Was it? Was it drugs? Was it mental illness? And I'm like it was a titanic.
Yeah, like a hundred.
Factors that created this situation. And so they want me to say, you know, it was his evil second wife and she hexts on him and you know whatever, and you know, or was this and you know he was doing extraordinary amounts of LSD and I think there was a drug in psychosis. But also people to mental ill are more likely to be victims of violence and perpetrate violence, and most people with types of psychosis are kind. So I also think he's a sociopath or psychopath that doesn't
watch him. Also think it was the toxic relationship with the second wife. You know, I think it's a number of things. But people want me to have a single answer for all these questions and this is not multiple choice.
I won't ask aby's your d Yeah, and how dare they ask you that?
Right? Again, it's it's this concept that I should be sorry for this or bear some guilt. And I recently did an interview with People magazine and I got this backlash of she's trying to sell a book and I was like, could you link me to my book on Amazon? Because I didn't know existed. I don't have a book. I haven't written a book. And you know, they thought I made all this money, and I said, let me
tell you what People magazine gave me. Because new sources don't pay people, I told them i'd had I had a big weight loss. They offered to load me a couple dresses, and they gave me a sandwich.
Oh, yay, sandwich. Hey that's big spender there.
Yes, And so that was it. So people want to say, is she a victim or is she a villain. They also want to say she's the offender's daughter, so she's either evil and violent or she's trying to make money off this.
They do it to us too. Yeah, they want to put you in a box.
Yeah. They need this to be black and white.
Yeah. And the thing about it is people always want to create their own narrative in their head without all the facts.
You are here this week in Portland, and you made this beautiful you know stone for you know, one of your father's you know, he's accused of killing this beautiful soul.
Please if you could share that story.
Yeah, definitely. So I have several interesting things happen. You know, as I'm speaking publicly about being the former suicidal child of a homicidal parent, is I have people who contact I have two sets of people contact me. One is people who tell me I'm the child of a pedophile, I'm the child of a serial rapist, I'm the child of this or that, and you know I'm able to love on them and give them some support and navigate.
The other type of people who contact me are people who say, I encountered your father and stepmother and they almost killed me. Okay, and these people will tell me the story and it matches up.
The timelines the thing.
Yeah, yeah, it matches the timeline. And so there are so many people that they tell me they almost killed. And then you know, one of the contacts I've gotten over the years is a ton of people from Portland saying I was friends with Andrea Maren. I knew your father while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland. I didn't know that, Jen, I didn't know you worked at the Benson.
Yeah, I moved here.
I moved here from HONOLULUAI, and I worked.
Granted, this is I mean, I'm only this is after yeah, yeah.
I know, but you worked at the same hotel. I mean this is I need the listeners to know this. Like every time that Rashia and I talk, we have some intersection and and I have a mic drop at the end of this episode that okay, like I think both Russia and Vett are going to like literally like just be speechless.
Oh my godh my god.
So while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland. So so initially my father and stepmother were in they emigrated to Israel. My father had gotten birth right citizenship. That's where an individual who is Sephardic or as Kanasi Jewish, you know whatever, can acquire citizenship in Israel. So they were in Israel and then they traveled all over Europe and there are multiple cold cases in Europe and specifically
in Britain that interpool was suspected of committeing. And I've offered my DNA to the European entities who want to close those cases.
Wow.
So they are then in the United States and primarily they're growing marijuana on a farm in Humboldt, and then they're in San Francisco, Portland, Eugene, and they would harvest and get a cut of the weed at the farm, and then they were kind of on this circuit between nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty three where they were selling. They were primarily spending most of their time in San Francisco, Eugene, between northern California and Oregon, Eugene, Portland.
On the West coast.
Yeah, over the years, a lot of people have contacted me and they've said, we were acquainted with Michael Baron, Susan Carson, who were you know, selling weed and at Portland State University and there was a beautiful young woman who was murdered and they were friends with her. Her name was Andrew Maren. Her father was doctor Oscar Maren, world renowned neuroscience scientists and neurosurgeon who was at a
Good Samaritan in Portland and with University of Oregon. She was murdered in the same way as my father's known victim, Karen Barnes in San Francisco. And many people believe that my father and stepmother murdered her, and they're just everyone knows it. Everyone believes it, and there's just not physical evidence. So what I did yesterday is I tapped into my love for gen Z. Like my nieces and nephews are just so fun and so I love gen Z, right, Yeah,
I just love it. I love my students of that age. I just have no one to love for the generation. So I decided what I was going to do is just tap into that. I did lay a stone the sixteen hundred block of Southwest Park Avenue yesterday where Andrew Marrin was murdered. I laid a stone asking for any tips. And so what I'm asking is that the Portland State University students just kick in, and I need you to go talk to elders. So if you know an elder who is around forty years ago, so will you know
individuals age sixty probably eighty. If you know an elder, you know a shop owner in the area or faculty, just go talk to them, see if you can get anything that we can connect the dots to. And then you can hit me up and via social media at doctor Jen Carson. So it's it's it's my hope that we can do that. And then if you're one of those people where your mom or dad or aunt and uncle had talked about encountering these people, you can hit
me up there. I can help you navigate to get that to the cold case detective so we can maybe bring some peace here.
You're incredible, gen Oh my.
God, So are you ready for the mic drop? Let's go ahead and do it.
Let's just get into it.
Yeah, because you've got me in mind spinning.
Your great grandmother was Dorothy Grace Anthony.
Right, Yes, that's Tomorrow's mother, so.
She's she's my grandmother's cousin, so we're.
So we are related.
That's what I said earlier.
I have chicken skin all over my body, gen I do too.
We're eighth cousins and.
Up is that okay? Is that from your mom's side to your dad's side?
Do you know it's my mother's side.
Well, thank goodness, your non.
Violent grandmother, my mom, non violent grandmother.
Oh my gosh.
And we just tripped and fell into somebody who was bad spit. Yeah. Our shared ancestors were really super cool people.
We're o'hannah, we're family, h Hannah.
So our shared ancestors, John Engles and Elizabeth Barrett were really cool people. And oh my god, please you to be excited that we're related to his mom. And I didn't get a chance to tell him.
Well, no, that's not his mom. Dorothy Anthony's is. So his mom is Dorothy, it's Derrero, it's Derrero.
Yeah, you're really.
Related.
Yeah, because George was married to Dorothy's. I know, it's very.
Yeah, no I remember that now.
Yeah, it's like I can't remember Derrero's but Dorothy.
But Dorothy, you know, lived like two blocks away from here on Filmore in San Francisco.
Wow, so your great grandmother Dorothy Grace Yeah.
Yeah, what wow, Oh my gosh. Okay, now now that you've blown our mind. I just want to say this, you know, really quickly before we I know, you know you have stuff to do and time is valuable, but it's so important for you to share with listeners. You know, people who are going through similar circumstances, you know, such as yourself, can you give them some advice of you know, how to get through whatever they're going through, you.
Know, because my life and your life, because my family and your family sounds so freaking melodramatic, right right, right, People think there's no relation, but there's a commonality suffering as part of life. Right. We do not go through this life unscathed. And trauma is trauma, loss is loss, pain is pain. So we all, we all meet on this field of suffering in this lifetime. And so I think that something uniquely that we have is that we
have inherited this shame. Right, But that's not unique either in the sense that you know, I've met people in this life who have, you know, incest and violence in their background. And you know, I had a dear friend from a false who is from a small town and her dad was the town drunk. You know, he was constantly passing out. She's fourteen, she's going to pick him up at the bar.
Sense of shame with that.
Yeah, I've met individuals who were conceived non consensually and they were a product of rape and what have you. And so we meet at these common spaces of shame and stigma and pain and loss and suffering. And this is what I know. I know that help works and hope can be restored.
You are hope, Jen, You you are the epitome of hope and light. And I think that's that's why I know, that's why I have gravitated to you, any that gravitated to.
You and you your magic.
Thank you well cousin, doctor Jen Carson, Mahalanuiloa for joining us.
Thank you, and you know everyone, if anyone is experiencing suicidal thoughts or they have a level and that's experiencing suicidal thoughts, please call nine eight eight the National Suicide and Mental Health Crisis Lifeline. It's twenty four hours a day, text or call. If you are in need of resources for counseling in your area, called two one one to
get a referral. And if you would like to connect with me, please follow me at doctor Jen Carson two ends and I'd love to connect with you and thank you rash Maniuvett for you know, being just love and light and also being leaders in the forefront of ethical true crime that is based in being trauma informed and victim centered, and so I appreciate you both so much.
This week, we are dedicating our emua to doctor Jen Carson's mother and stepfather, Lynn and Mike Gonzales. From the moment danger was imminent, Lynn protected her child at all costs, and when Mike, her stepfather, came into their lives, he showered them with unconditional love and gave them the necessary tools to heal.
And this simoa also goes out to those of you who have had to overcome unthinkable trauma just like doctor Jen Carson, and you have not only overcome, but you have transcended over that evil.
She took that pain and suffering and turned it into her life's mission to help others heal and to provide hope. Doctor Carson now runs nine to five to one six eight six Help the Inland Southern California Crisis Helpline, a suicide hotline based in Riverside, California.
If you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts or are in a crisis, please call nine eight eight, the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
You are not alone.
Onward and upward ema e moua.
Well, that's our show for today.
We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion and if there's a case you'd like for us to cover.
Find us on social media or email us at facingebl pod at tenderfoot dot tv.
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Until next time.
Aloha.
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile. Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on social media or email us at Facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.