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Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rascha Peccarero and I'm Yvett Gentilay, and today we're talking about the murders of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom, which is also known as the Corpsewood Manner Murders. And you guys, this one really has it all. Satanism, sex parties, and a creepy mansion in the woods.
It sure does.
But it's also about two people trying to break free from a society that did not accept them, and they ended up six at least for a little while, until that society came for them and did them in.
Listeners familiar with the Satanic Panic Scare of the nineteen eighties might be familiar with this case, which took place in the Deep South. No less, and here is an interesting fact. Bobby Lee Cook, a famous lawyer who was involved with the Atlanta child murders and the case that inspired Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, played a part here. He represented the sons of one of the murder victims in the estate dispute that followed the murders.
And that was the same lawyer that inspired the TV show Mattlocke that ran in the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties. Anyhow, today we are incredibly excited to welcome podcaster B. T. Harmon, who has also written about this case for Atlanta Magazine. I am incredibly honored to dig deep into the story of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odin with BT today. But first our producer Trevor is going to take us through today's case.
They became not necessarily the classical interpretation of devil worshipers quote Satanists. They became basically earth worshiping people. Their architectural style of their home, their patterns for living, the total dependence on the earth and its source of power, their total dependence on their own food sources, their total independence from all embarrassed types of lifestyles.
Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom were a couple who were murdered in their home in Treon, Georgia in nineteen eighty two. Charles and Joseph had moved to Chattooga County, Georgia, from Chicago, where Charles taught for many years at Loyola University. Charles was a lover of science, art, drama, and music, and considered himself extremely counter cultural. He kept a pet monkey, dyed his hair unusual colors, and heavily identified with the
Adams family. Charles was also publicly a member of the Church of Satan, and would even drive into town in a jeep that he had painted with pentagrams. The Church of Satan supported the notion that anything goes between two consenting adults, and it was a place where he found acceptance in a time when mainstream American society didn't accept gay people. In the late nineteen seventies, Charles and Joseph Odam, then his live in housekeeper, decided to leave Chicago on
a plot in rural Georgia. They cleared the land, laid the bricks and insalled a water pumping system for what they would call Corpsewood manor their dream house, on forty five acres. The home included a library with books on the occult human skulls and a pink gargoyle over the front entrance. There were also stained glass windows that Charles had made himself, and on the third floor of this building was a space they called the Pink Room, and
that's where the couple would entertain guests. The walls were decorated with candles, whips, chains, and even a log book listing guest sexual predilections. And in nearby Treon, Georgia, rumors surrounded these quote homosexual devil worshipers, as they were sometimes called, but people would still visit just to see the place, and Charles would give visitors homemade wine and let people hunt on their property. One of those visitors was a
troubled teenager named Kenneth Avery Brock. Avery, as he was known, had had a number of alleged sexual encounters with Charles Scudder, and he believed that Charles and Joseph were millionaires. As it turns out, this was not true, but on the night of December twelfth, nineteen eighty two, Charles and Joseph were throwing a party. Avery Brock came that night bringing his friend to Tony West. Together, Avery and Tony hatched
a plan to rob their hosts. In the pink room, Charles served their guest homemade wine while Joseph stayed in the main house to clean up after dinner. That's when Avery stepped out and returned with a rifle, and he pointed it directly at Charles. Then Avery bound and gagged Charles with a bedsheet. Avery then went to the main house, where he found Joseph in the kitchen and shot him
four times. He also killed the couple's two dogs. The killers then dragged Charles into the house, where they ripped off his gag and asked him where the money was. Then they shot and killed Charles. Avery and Tony then ransacked the house, but left with only a handful of coins and a few knick knacks. The pair were later arrested and both were eventually sentenced to life in prison.
The trial and surrounding coverage of the murders played on fears that were widespread at the time, both about Satanism and about homosexuality. Years later, the abandoned Corpsewood Manor was vandalized and burned to the ground. Today, only ruins remain of the once elegant structure. In rural North Georgia. And so who were Charles Scudder and Joseph odom and how does their story reflect the dangers of living through a period of American history rife with paranoia, homophobia, and violence.
Oh looha everyone, I am so excited to welcome our guest for today's episode. So joining us to discuss the murder of Charles Scudder and Joseph odom Or.
As many of you know, this is.
Also called the Corpsewood Murders is writer B. T.
Harmon.
BT has written at length about this case for Atlanta Magazine, and he is also the host of the true crime historical podcast Catolic. He joins us, now, welcome at Komo may to Facing EVILBT.
Thank you, it's good to be here.
We are so.
Honored to have you here, and we're just going to dive right in. My sister and I of course have done a deep dive. We know who you are, but we want our listeners to know more about you. So if you could tell us a little bit about your history, particularly with true crime, and what brought you to historical true crime.
Yeah.
So, I'm forty one years old, live in Atlanta, Georgia. I grew up in a small town in Alabama called Florence and had a corporate job for a while, and then about six or seven years ago, launched out on my own to start a new career. So got into kind of creative consulting, working with small businesses, and in the midst of that, decided to launch two podcasts. So my first podcast was called Blue Baby's Pink. It's sort of my personal coming out story and very memoir esque.
And then my second podcast was completely different, a total one to eighty. We went to from a personal story of faith and sexuality to true crime and history. And so I launched the podcast called cat Lick in twenty nineteen, and it covers a very unique span of time in Atlantis history between nineteen eleven and nineteen fifteen and four separate incidences that were playing out. All four really had sort of an angle of racism, racial terror, and the
stories were just so unbelievably sensational. It was like something out of Hollywood, and all the newspapers in Atlanta were covering them simultaneously and not really That podcast was a result of about five years of very in depth research, getting very nitty gritty on the historical details, but I'm really proud of it and how it turned out.
Wow, that's quite a transition, right to go into true crime. Can I just ask you a question, how did you come up with the name cat lick?
Yeah?
So I just love a good, clever, creative name. And I discovered this word cat lick. It sort of has like an English British route and it's kind of a slang word for like imagine like a mom tells her child, Hey, go go wash up, and he comes back and he just sort of he didn't really wash, He just sort of dusted himself off, and she says.
No, that's just a cat lick.
It's like a cat lick do you write you know, you didn't fully wash.
And so to me it was it was sort of a.
Really great proxy for the way this nation has handled a lot of race issues.
Right.
Yes, we've we'd like to think that we've done a thorough washing, but when you really get down to it, we really haven't.
And it's just a little cat lick.
And it has the letters at L right in the middle of the word catlick, which was you know, I just thought that was really cool.
So to me, it was just it was it was the right name.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. How clever is that on every level? You know, let's just jump right into it. Can you tell us when you first heard about the Corpse Wood murders.
Yeah, so it was actually in the midst of producing Catlic. I was releasing weekly episodes and I got an Instagram message from a fan who was listening to catlic and.
He said, hey, your next podcast should be about the Corpse.
Would Manner murders. And id ever heard of that before? So, of course, did what we all do. I googled it and boy, that was a whole rabbit hole and I probably spent I don't know, two or three hours just learning about that case. And it took place, you know, maybe forty maybe sixty miles north of where I live here in Atlanta, happened in the seventies and eighties, And so once I discovered that that was on my radar and I thought, boy, this is a this is a fascinating story on a lot of levels.
I want to know so much more, bt so much more, like I mean, especially not having heard about it and then hearing about it from a fan.
Do you know that area? And did it surprise you?
That this type of thing or horrific murder would happen in that rural area in Georgia.
Yeah, so the learn that took place. It's a county called Chattooga County. Like I said, it's about an hour hour and a half drive north of Atlanta. Of course, I'm in Atlanta for over a decade now. Love the city, progressive, global, big airport, a lot of just great arts and culture scene. Yeah, diversity, it's great. But you know, like a lot of states, once you get you know, a ways outside of the big city, things get very rural very quickly. And I listened. I grew up in a small town. I love small
town USA. I think it's fantastic, and my heart is still there in some ways. But yeah, Chatooga County. The city is called Tryon, which is where these gentlemen lived. Yeah, extremely rural. And when I went there, you know, because again the whole story took place in the late seventies, so this was we just had the fortieth anniversary of the murders, right, And so when I went there, I was I was just shocked at how rural it still was, right.
I mean forty years later, right, right, And something I.
Can't imagine what this area was like, you know, forty years ago, because even today, I mean it's, you know, a beautiful area, but just impossibly different from Atlanta in so many ways.
I would love to know what you personally thought, especially on your journey and going to try on and just seeing it for yourself. Did you feel like vibes? Was it haunted?
What were your first instincts and feelings when you were there?
Yeah, So one of the days I was there was the middle of the summer. It literally was one hundred and one hundred and three degrees that day, so just one of these sweltering southern hot days that you know, grow up in Alabama very familiar with. But yeah, visiting that area obviously, I wanted to get a feel for what's it like now? And it was really interesting.
You know.
I had lunch at one of the few little cafes in town, and my waitress was maybe in her twenties, and I just said, you know, hey, have you ever heard of the Corpsewood Manor Murders? And her eyes, you know, they got real big, and she said, oh, yeah, that's over, that's over on Devil Worshippers Mountain. And you know, my all of high school, our friends would go up there, and one of my friends she stole a brick, and you know, if you steal a brick from the ruins,
you're cursed. And sure enough her her parents were in a car wreck. So yeah, there was that kind of energy. And she told me, she's like, if you go up there, bring a baseball bat. And so, you know, it's just it's small town.
It's folklore.
At this point, those stories are, you know, etched in the minds of everyone in that county. And I got in my car and I drove up Mountain View Road. I mean, up this winding gravel road. All the houses have sort of these big, sort of impending fences and gates, and you know, rebel flags are flying and don't tread on me flags, and so, I mean it did have sort of this ominousness about it. And I got up there and it was remarkably creepy. I mean, I feel like that's.
So cliche to say, and obviously there's a psychology thing.
Going on there in my head, but yeah, it just had this it sort of had a heaviness about it. And the site is now privately owned and you technically aren't supposed to go there, but lots of people still go up there and trapes around the property and go through the ruins. The house has collapsed. It was burned shortly after the whole incident happened. Arson has set fire to it, so it is just a very haunted ruins.
Now it's bricks. There's the old arch, one of the main arches from the gazebo that was there, overgrown with vines and so it's just dense woods. But yeah, it definitely has that energy to it.
Do you think that Charles was, you know, into Satanic stuff or do you think he was just an atheist and just you know, he and Joseph were just living their lives doing you know, the things that they enjoyed doing. What do you think about that? Because it's like we create, you know, we create stuff in our head right of what we think people are doing, but are they actually doing that stuff?
Yeah?
So this is where I again, I am not an expert on the Church of Satan. I grew up my dad was a Southern Baptist pastor, so you know, I don't have expertise here, but based off my research.
Me either yeah, right, not like either.
When the Church of Satan started, It wasn't they weren't committing duplicitous acts and you know, sacrificing animals. It's almost like a troll job, right, It's like for people who are atheists, this is a great way to kind of troll people of faith. So Charles Scudder was a he was a counterculture guy. I mean he I think I read at one point he had pink hair.
I believe I read.
And you have to fact check me. I think he had a pet monkey at one time.
So yeah, that's it.
And so I kind of viewed his involvement with the Church of Satan is like it was just another way to kind of be different. And you know, but he did the symbology. He definitely loved you know, when he built the Big Mannor there were statues of Baphomet, and there were stained glass windows with pentagrams, and of course there was this towering pink gargoyle over the main doorway.
And so I've seen the photos.
Yeah, yeah, right, so you know they definitely I mean, he he was a card carrying member. They literally have found his name on rolls at the church. The membership role at the Church of Satan. So what level he was involved, we don't know, but we don't Again, there's no record of him doing anything criminal around his Church of Satan involvement.
You know, when you think about Charles and Joseph like doing this so many years ago and the times that we live in now, right, it's crazy to go and do that. But back then, they had to have such tremendous courage, like just to go out in the middle of nowhere and build their dream home and do the things that they did, Right, I mean, don't you find that fascinating and interesting that they were definitely I would say ahead of their time back then.
I think courageous is an appropriate word. I think there was also an element of desperation. Right, You've got these two men. They are living in the suburbs of Chicago or all intensive purposes, they're closeted. You know, this was a time where it was still very scary.
To be gay, even in an urban area like Chicago.
You know, we had the AIDS epidemic was just around the corner, you know, it kind of began early eighties, and so you know, it really shows the level to which these men were willing to go to kind of escape that closeted life, and there you know, there's a narrative here beyond just the sexuality piece. There's a narrative of just sort of being fed up with the trappings of modernity as it were, right like I think they
were also just Scudder had been working at Loyola. He wrote extensively about the increased paperwork, and the students were less respectful, and his colleagues were kind of jerks to him, and so there's an element of that of just wanting to escape from the stress of modern life and get back to the land. So there's kind of that component.
There's a lot of different narratives in this story.
There's a sexuality angle, there's a satanic panic situation, which is a whole other angle that was happening and we were right in the throes of that in the late seventies. And then there's sort of this get back to the land angle as well.
Do we think all the rumors when all that came out, especially when they were investigating the murders, you know, obviously their life lifestyle was on trial as opposed to the murderers being on trial. Do you think it was all surrounding homophobia and paranoia.
Took a couple of days after the murders, but when the Atlanta media picked up this story, uh, one of the phrases that kept coming up in their headlines were homosexual devil worshipers. Right, what's the weight of that phrase. I mean, it's you know, if you're a journalist, that's fantastic clickbait as much as clickbait could have could have existed.
Sensationalism and it's finest.
That's it, right, And so so that that that became part of the narrative very early, and that was a significant piece. You have two men who were both sexual and religious minorities in a extremely rural, very uh you know, very conservative, uh, small town, and so.
That that was a big part of it.
I'll tell you an interesting, an interesting anecdote from this story in the newspaper clippings. The sheriff, who was the primary sort of investigator, once all that, once the murders happened. I believe even one of his court testimonies, the discussion of motive came up and he said, this is someone who was keenly aware of what was happening. He attributed fifty percent of the motive of the murders was robbery.
Because the money they thought they had.
Okay, yep.
He chalked up the other fifty percent too, the fact that they were gay and that they were quote unquote devil worshippers. And when that came up with one of the suspects, I think it was Avery Brock. He said, basically, we gave those devil worshippers, you know what they had coming. That's a paraphrase. And so there was a hate crime element to this beyond just the robbery. And I think
that was you know, again, it's this dehumanization thing. When we judge people so severely, we dehumanize them, then doing violence to them is no longer that big of a deal because they had it coming.
Right, never thought about it that way, Yeah, I mean from their perspective, I've never thought about that. Yeah.
It's just so interesting because you know, like Russia was saying about our great grandfather who had all these wild parties, you know, in the Franklin House here in Los Angeles, the same thing goes for you know, Charles and Joseph they were having you know, these sex parties and people coming in and out of the house. I mean, do you think that these guys were like wanting to take advantage of them in some way, you know, because one
of the guys was having relations with Charles. So do you think it was definitely premeditated.
Yeah, we definitely know it was very premeditated. The two perps, Brock and West, these were not smart people. Their backgrounds were very shady, you know, petty crime from an early age. One of the gentlemen actually murdered someone when he was a child. I think it was a relative or something, and so he.
Was his brother.
Yeah, yeah, that's right, right, and so that was part of this. Uh so it was definitely premeditated. Again, it was a crime of opportunity and there in their minds they just assumed, well, these these guys have a big house. There must be money hidden in this house somewhere. So, you know, just not not the smartest guys on the block. But that definitely was that was the initial motive which got the ball rolling.
This is just such a crazy story, you know when you think about it. Do they know who actually burned down the house?
They don't know.
They're probably like burn it, burn it to the ground.
Whatever happened here, And all of the folklore that I'm sure is followed in the years after this horrific murder. It makes me so sad to see that this something like this would happen again. I know it was in the nineteen eighties. We've come a long way yet, We've got so far to go. But do you think initially, of course, that their murders were, like you said, dismissed because these perps dehumanized them because they thought that they
were xyz all these horrible things. Do we think that it was truly just because they were gay, or do you think it had a satanic thing too, or all of the above?
Yeah, I think it was the perfect storm.
I mean, even now, if someone is a self availed homosexual and they are part of the Church of Satan, that that person would be shrouded in great taboo, right, Yeah, And so back then, of course, it was probably tenfold the level of misunderstanding that existed culturally on what it
meant to be gay. I mean, it was just barely in the American conscience at that point, and as it existed in that conscience, it was fully taboo, fully disgusting, fully inappropriate here in the South, fully worthy of being damned to hell.
You know.
I mean, that's the kind of theology that exists in the South certainly then and it still does today, and so so yeah, I do think that colored the way that people thought about this case.
Back then.
It was probably kind of easy to dismiss this as an issue of justice. Well that's what they you know, that's what they had coming. And there were there were quotes in several newspapers where they did any man on the street interviews with folks around Atlanta, and several people said that wow, which was certainly reflective of the times.
So what do you think about the sentences that the two men got. Do you feel that it was a fair sentence?
Yeah? I think so.
I mean, the two gentlemen are still in jail to this day. They were just young, barely teenagers at the time, and they're becoming old men in jail, and so, you know, the justice system prevailed and they were you know, quickly apprehended within days of the crime, and they're still serving time for it.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that. It's like it seems like this is the time that our you know, our system actually worked.
As long as we've been doing this, it's rare that that has happened, especially in you know, I can definitely say that I believe this was a partial hate crime. Yes, it was probably, like you said, the perfect storm beauty. But I would love to know, on a personal note for you, especially, you know, being from Alabama and living in Georgia and being a for all intents and purposes, a happily gay married man, how do you relate, if
at all, to Charles and Joseph. How has this case impacted you and your life?
So I spent the first thirty ish years of my life deep in the closet, grew up again in a very very conservative Christian family, and the only thing I knew to survive through my childhood, teens and twenties was to just be closeted. And you know, my coping mechanism at that time was work. Once I graduated college, I became a workaholic. And so I can't say that I perfectly identify with how those two men felt, but I bet there.
Was a lot of overlap.
The feeling of soul crushing shame, the feeling of not being worthy, the feeling of the crippling fear of imagining what life would be like if those who knew this dark secret about you know, what they would do or how they would judge you. So yeah, I get it, and I understand why they would want to run from that life that they had in Chicago and just get away and build a castle in the woods to try to find peace. You know, at the end of the day,
that's what everyone's looking for. We're looking for a way to exist and just live our lives. And I think that's what they were doing, and so I'm really thankful that that's not my story. And listen, I'm a very optimistic person. And as you said earlier, when it comes to LGBT rights, we've got a long way to go. But I will be the first to say I love where we are now. And the life that my husband and I have been able to build here in Atlanta
is just beautiful. It is unbelievably mundane, right. I mean, we have two cats, we have a garden in the summer, and we watch Netflix at night.
And the fact that we're able to do that like.
Unbothered for the most part, and we have neighbors that are so incredibly supportive and love us.
It's amazing.
And so to me, that's another sub narrative of this story is people don't have to necessarily move to the woods anymore to escape the shame of the closet. You know, in some areas, you know they probably want to, but thankfully there are refuges where people can build really beautiful lives for themselves.
You know what we do here on Facing Eveill we always look for the light in the darkness. And I know it's hard to find the light in some case cases, especially one as gruesome as this. But just in this short time that we've had with you, I know that you are a bright, shining light of optimism. Can you give our listeners and Yvett n I a little light in the dark. What do you see in this case that doesn't make it so dark for us?
Yeah?
I think two things come to mind.
I mean, we referenced it earlier, but the justice system in this case worked yes, yes.
And again.
And when you read some of the reports from law enforcement, you know they went out of their way to say in their investigation, to be clear, we don't care that these men were gay or were devil worshippers.
We are here to serve justice beautiful and so that was inspiring.
And these are small town police officers in rural North Georgia in the nineteen eighties, and they were pushing through to say justice matters, and we're going to find justice for these two men, despite what anyone thinks about them. And I found that really beautiful and inspiring. The second thing I would say is, you know, it's a lesson for today, but again, look.
How far we've come.
Yes, the fact that we have progressed so far and LGBTQ rights and people like me are able to build wonderfully beautiful, mundane lives is really remarkable, and so I think we all should step back and let that provide a little hope, because it's really really beautiful hope.
Yes, that's the life, open healing, that is, that's what it's all about. We completely, one hundred percent enjoyed speaking with you today.
BT.
I love how you're so Southern and you love it and you just radiate in it, you know, in all that you are. So you know, what we can all wish for for ourselves and for others is just happiness at the end of the day. Just happiness.
That's it.
It's really simple, it's really simple.
Well, thank you so much, BT for joining us. On facing evil, and we look forward to chatting with you again real soon.
Cheers.
This week's message of hope and healing goes out to the pioneers, people like Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom who, finding no acceptance in the real world, built a world all of their own.
And they built a space where they could be who they were in a time when it was hard to find acceptance in the wider world, and they were happy, at least for a little while.
Pioneers like these make new spaces and in doing so, pave the way for others. In an interview with Mother Earth magazine about building Corpsewood Manner, Charles Scudder wrote, people often fantasize about trying out different lifestyles, but few actually change the way they live. They just don't know that. All it takes is to realize a fan is a small amount of money, a bit of luck, and a whole lot of courage.
In this moment, we honor that courage. Onward and upward.
Ema Emua. Well, that's our show for today.
We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion and if there's a case you'd like for us to.
Cover, find us on social media or email us at Facingeblpod at Tenderfoot dot tv.
And one small request if you haven't already, please find us on iTunes and give us a good rating and a good review. If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.
Until next time, Aloha.
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile. Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.