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Hello, everyone, Welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Ivet Gentila.
And I'm Roschia Peccuerero. This week we are covering a story that is incredibly close to my heart.
Yes, this week, we are talking about Brandonina, a transgender man whose story was dramatized in the nineteen ninety nine movie Boys Don't Cry, starring Hillary Swank, and that movie was inspired by a nineteen ninety four Village Voice article about the murder of Brandon Tina, which was written by Donna Minkowitz. And Donna will be our guest on today's episode.
Yes, I'm very humbled and honored for Donna to be with us today. She wrote that article back in the early nineteen nineties, at a time when the stories of trans people weren't really being covered in the media. Donna's article is an in depth expose on Brandon, on his community, and about what happened to him. But the story does not end there. Donna has had a long and fascinating journey with the case of Brandon Tina, and we are going to get into all of that today.
Yes, I'm super excited about having Donna on the show, but now our producer, mister Trevor Young, is going to walk us through today's case.
A gruesome triple murder nineteen years ago left emotional scars on the people of Humboldt, Nebraska. Three people killed, including Brandon Tina, a twenty one year old transgender Nebraska who the convicted murder now sits on death row for.
He tried to be true to the kids he was with. He was put down. Janni al latter his hereby said to the family of dead and the murder and the fresh degree murder of Dana Brand.
Brandon Tina was a twenty one year old transgender man who was killed on New Year's Eve of nineteen ninety three by two men in Humboldt, Nebraska. Brandon was raised in Lincoln, Nebraska and grew up in Catholic school, but he frequently got into trouble, in one instance, for trying to alter the school uniform to look more masculine. In November of nineteen ninety three, Brandon moved to Humboldt, Nebraska,
where he started dating eighteen year old Lana Tisdel. Brandon presented as male to Lana and her friends, who had no idea he was transgender. Then Brandon met John Latter and Tom Neeson. John was an ex boyfriend of Lana, and both men were ex convicts, but the four started to hang out together. On December ninth, teeenth, Brandon was arrested for forging checks, and when they arrested him, the police put him in the women's section of the jail.
This was the first time that Lana realized he was trans. After Brandon was bailed out, the story of his arrest was published in the local paper, and Brandon was out at as transgender to this new group of friends. Late on the night of Christmas Eve in nineteen ninety three, Tom Neeson and John Lotter began to harass Brandon about his gender presentation. They reportedly grabbed Brandon and pulled his
pants down, forcing Laana to look at his genitals. Then they forced Brandon into John's car and drove him out to an isolated area where they raped and beat him. Afterwards, they threatened to kill him if he told anyone, but Brandon did report the crime to the local sheriff, who refused to arrest Lotter and Nisson. But the two men learned about Brandon's attempt to report them, and they decided
to retaliate. On the night of December thirty first, Tom Neeson and John Lotter found Brandon at a neighbor's house. The two then shot and stabbed Brandonina, along with two other people staying at the house. John Lotter and Tom Neeson were arrested that afternoon. Both men were eventually found guilty of first degree murder. As of today, Tom Neeson is serving a life sentence and John Lotter is still on death row. The murder of Brandonina became the subject
of the nineteen ninety nine movie Boys Don't Cry. It also helped galvanize the burgeoning transgender rights movement. And so, who was Brandonina? Why did law enforcement fail to protect Brandon? And what does this story tell us about the dangers the trans people face each and every day?
All Right, So today we have a very special guest with the long and compelling history with this case, joining us now to talk about Brandon Tina is author, activists
journalists Donna Minkowitz. You may know her writings from The New York Times, Salon, the Village Voice, or you may know some of her many books, including Ferocious Romance and one that I am obsessively reading as we speak, growing Up Goalum, Donna, I know that you've been covering the story of Brandon Tina since the very beginning in nineteen ninety four, and you know there's so much to discover, and I know it's been a long journey for you.
So with that being said, welcome to Facing Evil Russia. And I are so very honored to have you here.
Well, thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited to be here.
We're so honored that you're here, Donna.
Yes, yes, So Donna, before we start talking about Brandon, can you tell our listeners like when you first started writing and why you started writing?
Gosh, I don't know if I should count my bad attempts at poetry in fifth grade.
Yes, I should count that I've always really loved writing and reading.
It was the thing that made me happy. My childhood was a little rough, but my mother always really encouraged me to read and write, you know, and then just like creating words that were full of beauty and trying to make something like that. It really really made me happy. And then when I got to college and I started getting more politically active, I wanted to write things that
I was passionate about. There were a lot of things that seemed really unjust to me, and you know, I wanted to try to change them if I could by writing something.
I was reading your book, like I said, and I know that the Village Boys. You know, the newspaper was very big in your household. Is that correct?
Oh?
Yeah, My whole family loved it. So it was free back then. It was like nothing else in the media, you know, whether in New York or anywhere else. It had queer stuff back then, and this is the nineteen seventies when there wasn't queer stuff anywhere outside of like a gay or lesbian newspaper, certainly not on TV. You know. They had a lot of left wing stuff, and they used dirty words, which no other media did in those days.
And my family really liked to read the personal ads, which were like much better than like those kinds of things aren't like dating profiles are today. They were just like very artfully written. There were no photos, so it had to all be in the writing.
I love that, I know. And when did you start at the Village Voice, Donna, Well.
I started doing some freelance pieces when I was twenty two. I was having a really bad time in grad school for comparative literature, but I started. I started doing some book reviews for The Voice, and then I left my grad school program. I moved back to New York City and I became a freelance copy editor at the Voice, which meant I got to be in the office and try to talk to editors. And there was one editor who was like in charge of all the queer stuff at the Voice. So I was like, I'm gonna woo.
That man, I'm gonna get my way in. Yeah.
So I did that, and then gradually I was covering a lot of LGBT stuff at the paper.
So on that point, Donna, did you know about Brandon Tina's rape and then subsequent murder back when it happened or is it because you were asked to do the story for the Village Voice.
I was asked to do it. Actually, not that long after the murder happened. I think the New York Times just printed an AP story about Brandon's rape and murder. And I guess he was murdered in nineteen ninety three, and it was probably early in the new year that my editor showed me this AP story and we both thought. I was like, oh my god, this is an intense and amazing story. I was really happy that he wanted me to go and cover it to Nebraska.
Oh so you actually went to Nebraska to cover it.
Oh yeah, wow.
I didn't realize that.
I didn't know that either.
Yeah. I went to Nebraska, so I don't drive. I still kind of crazy. The New Yorker and I knew this lesbian documentary filmmaker named Susan Muska, so she came with me. The Voice paid for some of her travel expenses, and we went out to Nebraska. Brandon Tina grew up in Lincoln, and he was murdered when he was living for a couple months in a very small town, very conservative small town called Humboldt. So Susan and I went
and interviewed people in both Lincoln and Humboldt. This would be early nineteen ninety four.
Wow, So right after he was murdered.
Right after he was murdered, it was pretty intense going to the town. Except for one of Brandon's girlfriends in the town was Lanna Tisdale. And except for Lana and her family, no one we spoke to, you know, expressed sadness or regret that Brandon had been killed. It was just a very very conservative town. I looked very butch in those days, and so Susan was traveling with me. Everyone knew who we were, you know, we were like the lesbian journalists from New York. But anyway, we we
did talk to people. We interviewed a lot of people, and we also spoke to Brandon's mother and a lot of women who Brandon had previously dated, and Lincoln and also Brandon's gay cousin Maury Oh certainly told us a lot of stuff that we hadn't known.
Wow.
Wow, I don't know if you've seen whose, but he was cute. I think Hillary Swank did a good job of pulling off the handsomeness factory.
And I couldn't agree more.
I think she did an amazing job. And speaking about you know, boys, Don't Cry. This is a question that I had for you. When the director of the movie Boys Don't Cry said that she was inspired by the piece that you wrote, How did that make you feel?
Well? It made me feel really good because I think it's a brilliant movie. I mean, I know that a number of transactivists do have some problems with the movie, and I think that's their right. I think their opinion about how it's portrayed is more important here than mine. But Kimberly Pierce, the director, actually unfortunately did not say that for a long time, for many years.
For many years, and I would have appreciated hearing it because actually, at the time my voice piece came out.
A number of people from Hollywood approached me to option the story, but nobody really did so I was like, okay, okay, but anyway, it's fine. You know, no one has property rights, and the truth they did not have to pay me. It was not my story, right. I think it's a brilliant movie.
I agree, Boys Don't Cry. It was absolutely a brilliant movie, And I love that you can you can tell obviously you don't have hard feelings about Kimberly. You know, basically making boys don't cry. I mean, maybe she should have optioned it.
I think, you know, she didn't have a lot of money in those days. I didn't have a lot of money in those days, so it's like, where was the money going to come from? You know.
So going back to your piece in The Village Voice, you know, Love Hurts that came out in nineteen ninety four, but then you did a retraction into twenty eighteen called how I Broke and Watched the Brandon Tina Story. And I have to tell you, Donna, that is incredibly brave because you didn't have to do that. I would love to know why why did you decide to write all these years later that particular piece.
Well, it had really been weighing on my mind for a long time. My original article was criticized a lot, you know, by transactivists and people on the side of transactivists and academics, and I was defensive about this criticism for quite a while. Yeah, you know, at first I didn't understand because I thought, well, my piece was on Brandon Tina's side, and it was only you know, as the years passed and I started educating myself more about
trans issues, I realized how ignorant I had been. I mean back then in nineteen ninety three, I thought many people sort of in the like the cultural way that trans people were portrayed. I thought that if someone was trans, that meant that they surgically altered their body and they had hormone treatments. I didn't understand that trans people were just trans and they didn't have to, you know, prove
it by doing anything to their body. And I think also a lot of us who were sis, gay and lesbian people were scared of the trans movement for some really really wrong reasons. But we had this mistaken idea that trans people were really gay and lesbian people who wanted to be like, considered normal, so they were going to be like trans straight people and they were going to say, like, oh, we're normal, We're just in the
wrong body. So, I mean, I was very ignorant. I didn't know that there are you know, lesbian trans people and gay trans people and bisexual trans people. It has nothing to do with whether you're cis or trans. There's still all kinds of possible sexual orientation configurations. But I think I was motivated by this as well. So in my original piece, I kind of I mean, I wanted to honor what I thought of as Brandon living as
a man and portraying themselves as a man. But I didn't understand that Brandon in fact identified as a man and should be treated as such. So I sort of took Brandon as a cis lesbian who you know, who wow, wanted to live as a man. Wow, that was very bold. I didn't understand that he was just being himself. So I do really regret the way I wrote the piece. I had been wanting to apologize for years. I actually
sort of apologized quietly in the year twenty fourteen. I was promoting a book and I was interviewed in a queer paper in San Francisco, and they said, you have anything else to say, And I said, oh, I would like to apologize to the trans community, but not that many people read it, you know, and I kind of wanted to do it in a big way.
Well that was a big way, Donna, Yeah, yeah, And you know, Donna, I just have to commend you, you know, because not a lot of people would do that.
They would just you know, blow it off, you know, but you you know, you obviously thought deeply about this and evolved right and made an effort to write another story about you know, how you felt, how you have changed, you know, because you know, back in the nineties it was right. It was a different time. We didn't really know all the things that we know now, you know.
And so when we think about Brandon Tina, like it's almost thirty years, you know, since his murder, do you think that society has evolved since then?
I guess I would have to say like yes and no, like a really strong yes and a really strong no.
You know.
Culturally, the fact that there are musicians who are out and trans, and authors and some films and TV and actors who are out, that's wonderful. Yeah, I think the
level of knowledge is dramatically greater. But on the other hand, you know, we have things like those far right people really going after trans people viciously, both saying that you know, trans people are groomers, and you know, passing passing all these laws like you know, parents who parents who support their trans kids, you know, can be investigated for child abuse.
Just which is ridiculous.
I think it's a very frightening time to be a trans person, you know, despite all the advances.
I agree Donna and I think it's so important, just as you did, you know, back in twenty eighteen, and you know, years earlier, you showed up as a trans ally and that's what we want to be here. And I hope that the world can evolve and catch up as well. And I think we you've proven that we have to use our voices for good, right And I would like to know you did say, you know, even wanting to, you know, to apologize to the trans community for a long time. What made you start to think
think differently? Was there someone in your life that inspired you or did you like what made it change for you personally?
Well, one thing was someone in my life, actually not
not a trans person. The woman I married, Karen. Karen she's a therapist now, but she had been an academic in gender studies, and you know, when she was teaching me all this stuff, I knew that she kind of was better informed about trans people than me, and we would talk about it and I was like, ah, oh, she said that, she said that, And you know, I started looking at her books and thinking about things she said, and then I really started making an effort to educate
myself more, getting to know more trans people. I teach writing. Sometimes I teach memoir writing classes, and I I had a student who also worked with me privately, who was a trans musician working on a memoir and working with him help me learn a lot as well.
That's so beautiful.
Yeah, that's you know, I can say the same. It's like, I'm so lucky, you know, to have my sister, because you know, just having people in your circle that helped to educate you makes you a stronger ally. Right, So your wife, you know, has taught you and different people, different encounters that you've had in your life. What would you tell people or tell our listeners, like, what avenues could they take to educate themselves, you know, to to find out more about the trans community.
Just thinking about this trans musician who I worked with, who was my student working with him on his memoir, I saw so strongly. You know, he's different from me. It's something I had to learn. Nope, he is not a lesbian though he's someone who was assigned female at birth. You know who is attracted to women. He's no, he's not. He's different from me. Sometimes it's hard to realize that not everyone is like you, right, not being yourself everywhere
and some people are genuinely different from you. They have different desires and different needs. So yes, getting getting to know trans people and also reading. There's a lot of great essays out there and books by trans writers and trans academics. Oh, there's an excellent book called Brilliant Imperfection by a transwriter named Eli Clare.
Oh, I haven't heard about that one great book.
He is trans and he is also disabled, and the book is kind of about how to come to acceptance about things about yourself that you might not love or you wish, you wish might be different, but how to do that and still love yourself. So I find that a really helpful book. There's a I believe it's called The Transgender Studies Reader, or maybe it's now called the trans Studies Reader. But that was that was excellent and really informed me a lot.
So circling back to Brandon, and I know, of course, we cannot turn back time and we can't change what happened. And I know this is a very hard question for me to ask you, but so if Brandon would have been murdered in twenty twenty three, or even if Brandon had reported the rape that happened in twenty twenty three. Do you think things would have ended up differently?
That's a really good question, and I think maybe the key further question is where, depending on where it happened, I mean, if it had happened in Humboldt, Nebraska, I honestly don't know. I think it would have been at least a little bit better. I mean, back then, when he reported the rape, the sheriff called him an it and said, you know, like, what am I supposed to do? You know, first you seem to be a boy, then
you seem to be a girl. The sheriff used his own discomfort about Brandon being trans as an excuse not to find the rapists and prosecute of the rape. Nissen and Louder the rapists had told Brandon that if he reported the rape, they would kill him, and that's what they did. So I think that Shareff is really to blame. But I think if Brandon, you know, we're a young person today who was murdered, I think he would be identified as a trans man in the press as did
not happen then. I mean, it's it's hard because I mean, of course trans people are still being killed, very widely killed. So it's still terrible, even if some of them might be identified who as who they are after their deaths.
Yeah, you're so right, you know. It's it's like we've come so far, but yet we're still in the same place, so to speak. You know, but if Brandon Tina would have been killed in twenty twenty three, say in San Francisco or California, maybe it would be very different, right, because so many people that are more awake and care about the queer community.
Right, Yeah, there are so many more people who care. I think the sad part is, unfortunately the murders. The murders do keep happening. I did want to say, you know, thinking about the anti trans movement today, the election of Donald Trump in twenty sixteen really threw me for a loop.
I had not thought that things were in danger of going so far backward, and even though he was not re elected in twenty twenty, the fact that we have this huge far right movement now targeting trans people and queer people, it's a little hard sometimes to square that with my day to day life as someone who lives in the town where I don't think someone's gonna beat me up for being gay, but knowing that people are
passing these anti trans laws all over the country. It's kind of hard keeping the two things in your mind at the same time.
Yeah, yeah, it can be hard to compartmentalize it. I can see that. You know, we've been developing facing evil since we did Root of Evil back in twenty nineteen. And one of the first cases I knew we had to speak about Brandon. I knew that, and it's because I wanted more people that didn't see boys don't cry to know about transgender issues or things that are going on in the world.
You were making me think of two years ago here in the upstate New York town where I live, we had a Queer and Transliberation March that I was one of the organizers of, and we had a speak out afterwards, and the thing that blew me away was the kids, all of these teenage these non binary and trans teenagers getting up to speak about themselves. And they made me so happy, all of these young people wanting to be who they were, changing the nature of how gender is understood as we speak.
I just love them.
Like you said earlier, you know, the more that you educate yourself and you get to know people and you read and you do your research, you know, you find that we are all so similar in so many ways, you know, and just by me, you know, reading your book Growing Up galam Like, it was so fascinating to me because I could see parts of you know, my mother's life and my grandmother's life, like through your book,
you know, and how you were raised. So we all, you know, have a little bit of each other in us, you know, That's what I truly believe.
Yeah, we do. My memoir writing students, they're often afraid, like, why would anybody be interested in my life? And I tell them, actually, I think every single human beings life is interesting. Everyone has absolutely life, you know, you just have to write it in such a way that other people can see it. But I think to your point that we can identify with something in anyone else's life.
It doesn't have to be exactly the same as ours, but we do have very similar basic feelings and needs, you know, even if our lives have been very different.
Absolutely, Donna, if you could please with everything that you know about Brandon Tina after going to Nebraska and meeting his family and covering the story, what can you tell us what did you learn covering Brandon Tina's story and who he was as a human being, and what his legacy is now.
When I was starting to work on my apology article in twenty eighteen, I went back over a whole box of notes I had from nineteen ninety three when I was writing the first piece, and I was shocked to see a number of things about Brandon that I had forgotten. He was only twenty one when he was murdered, and he had wanted to be a commercial artist, so I had forgotten that had no idea he was interested in
art at all. Also, his mother said that he was really outspoken in the conservative Catholic high school that he went to. You know, she said, if the priest said one thing he said, you know, he would say the opposite. And I actually recently found out that it was specifically he was criticizing Catholic hierarchy teachings about homosexuality and contraception. I had forgotten this. I had ignored that in my article.
And I think in nineteen ninety three it was difficult to access transgender healthcare, I think in Nebraska or anywhere else, but Brandon tried. He went to gender clinics and he tried to avail himself of what was out there, but it was not easy for him. And something we haven't mentioned, you know, his family was poor. He never had a high paying job, he often didn't have a job. His mother sometimes was on disability. They lived in a trailer park.
Their friends were also poor, so it was particularly I think, not easy for him to access those kinds of services. So I guess I want to remember him as someone someone who wanted to be an artist, someone who outspoken. And I also remember he wrote these kind of really like mushy and sweet and romantic cards for his last girlfriend, Lana.
For Lana, Yes, Yes, and Donna. I have to thank you for your words in all of your books, all of your different articles, but especially what you've written about
Brandon and what you have done with your voice. And I have to thank you for your bravery and inspiring all of us to use our own voices and tell our own stories, because, just like you said to your writing students, like everyone has a story, and I think that's how we can all somehow find common ground and live, as cheesy as it sounds, in a more beautiful world. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you, Thank you, thank you for being here, Donna.
I know this is going to be great episode and our listeners are going to just be fully engaged because you have so much wisdom, so much kindness, so much heart, and we so appreciate your time.
Thank you. It was really great to be with you both.
Thank you so much, Donna.
This week's message of hope and healing is for Brandonina, who was adamant about living life as the person he truly was in nearly impossible circumstances.
Brandon Tina was headstrong, outspoken. What kind of impact could he have made We'll never know. He shouldn't have had to lose his life or live with the fear and abuse, but his death helped pave the way for so many others after him to live their truth.
And so this week we move onward and upward by recognizing those who face similar struggles.
If you're on that path today, then we see you and we honor you. Onward and upward. Emua, emua. Well, that is our show for today.
We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion and if there is a case that you'd like us to cover, find us on social media at Facing Evil Pod or email us at Facingevil Pod at Tenderfoot dot tv and one request if you haven't already, please find us on iTunes.
And give us a good review and a good rating. If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.
Until next time.
Ah Looha.
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. The show is hosted by Russia Peccuerero and Avet Gentile. Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on social media or email us at Facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows