Episode 1: Ordinary objects, extraordinary stories

[00:00:07] Michael Spence: Welcome to Faces of UCL, where we uncover many stories from around University College London. I'm Michael Spence, UCL's President and Provost. I'm excited to bring you conversations with some of the remarkable people who contribute to our vibrant university community. This podcast's a window into the people and the stories that make UCL the special place it is. Today, I'm talking to Catriona Wilson, the head of the Petrie Collection of Egyptian and Sudanese Archaeology, and Anna Garnett, the curator of the Petrie collection. Welcome, Catriona and Anna. [00:00:41] Catriona Wilson: Thank you. [00:00:41] Dr. Anna Garnett: Thanks. [00:00:42] Michael Spence: Tell us something about the Petrie collection. [00:00:45] Catriona Wilson: Sure. The Petrie Museum has just over 80,600 objects in it, which makes it one of the largest collections of Egyptian and Sudanese archeology anywhere in the world. That's larger, for example, than the equivalent material in the Louvre, or the Metropolitan Museum of Art, or the Ashmolean. It's important because much of the material comes from documented excavations that were distributed all over the world. It makes the museum this critical hub for researchers and for teaching and learning really globally. [00:01:18] Michael Spence: Am I right that it's an unusual collection in that it's not grand sarcophagi and things, but actually more to do with people's everyday life? [00:01:27] Catriona Wilson: Yeah, exactly. We have an expression that Anna and I like to use. The collection is very focused on smaller items, lots of everyday objects. We've got incredible things like knitted socks and loaves of bread and letters to lovers and managers that people are annoyed with. [00:01:45] Michael Spence: The world's oldest dress. [00:01:46] Catriona Wilson: The world's oldest dress, the Tarkan dress, the oldest woven garment. We've got lots of firsts and oldest like this. But Anna and I like to say that the collection is full of ordinary objects that tell extraordinary stories. [00:01:59] Michael Spence: So how old is the world's oldest dress? [00:02:01] Catriona Wilson: Just over 5,000 years. [00:02:03] Michael Spence: I think we call that fast fashion. [00:02:04] Dr. Anna Garnett: To add that, we know that because that was the result of a radiocarbon dating analysis. Partly through UCL, in collaboration with the University of Oxford, so that's scientifically proven dating. [00:02:16] Michael Spence: Now, how much of this stuff was collected by Petrie himself for whom the museum is named? [00:02:21] Dr. Anna Garnett: It's a good question. The majority of the collection was part originally of Flinders Petrie's own collection, but we do have different means by which objects entered the collection. The collection itself was set up by a woman called Amelia Edwards. She was a Victorian traveller, novelist, journalist, feminist, who presented her own collection to UCL in 1892 on her death, choosing UCL specifically because UCL offered degrees to women, as well as men. We believe that that's about 1,000 objects. That was really the foundation for the collection as it exists today. [00:02:57] Michael Spence: Wow. But Petrie, he was a more complex person, right? What were his complexities and how do you deal with them? [00:03:05] Dr. Anna Garnett: Flinders Petrie, we like to say we take the light with the dark when it comes to Flinders Petrie's legacies. Flinders Petrie, Victorian archaeologist, is very well known in the field and beyond for transforming archaeology from what was a treasure hunt into a science in the late 19th and early 20th century. There are very many achievements associated with that, including developing the world's first prehistoric timeline, as well as many, many other achievements. However, his legacy, as you mentioned, is complex, and in many ways controversial. He was actively supporting eugenics at UCL, the development of eugenics. For example, he was supplying human remains to Francis Galton and Karl Pearson from Egypt for their development of eugenics at UCL. [00:03:55] Michael Spence: How as a museum, do you deal with that here in the UK? How have you dealt with it in your relationship with communities in Egypt and Sudan? [00:04:05] Dr. Anna Garnett: Within the museum, we really embed the spectrum of Petrie's history, Petrie's legacy, within every aspect of our work, whether that's teaching, whether that is research, whether it's public engagement. Really, this has been the standard set by the Petrie Museum for the last two decades. Since the publication of Professor Stephen Kirk's Hidden Hands book, which really foregrounds the Egyptian community, the Egyptian workforces, who worked for Petrie in this narrative. We do that today by a combination of integrating these stories into our teaching, but also into the interpretation of objects within the gallery itself. From 2018-2020, we developed a project to completely revamp our entrance gallery in the Petrie Museum, sponsored by DCMS Wolfson Museum and Galleries Improvement Fund, and it's here where visitors and everyone who comes to the museum can now enter the space, and they see these stories in a very transparent way. Not only those transparent stories, behind the legacies of Flinders Petrie, and Amelia Edwards, also, the original donor to the museum, but also learning more about the characters behind the collection, who we may not know as much about. For example, the women who covered Finders Petrie's teaching when he went to Egypt or to the Levant to excavate. The Egyptian workforces, men, women, and children. This is where all who visit the museum now can hear not only the voices and these stories, but also the entanglement of the different aspects of the legacies. [00:05:50] Michael Spence: You've been working not only in Egypt with Egyptian archaeologists, but also here with members of the Sudanese community and also the Egyptian community. Tell us about something about what you've been doing in that space. [00:06:05] Catriona Wilson: Of course. We have really close relationships with both Egyptian people and Sudanese people. I mean, Anna's worked in Sudan and Egypt. But also with diaspora communities and local communities in London, we've worked with them for a very long time. We have all kinds of things in place. For example, Anna learns Arabic, and she's able to communicate and teach in Arabic. Then last year, we started a project called Sudan's Living Cultures, where we're working with three Sudanese artists, two of who live in London, most of the time, one in New York. Through a wonderful colleague called Serita Mam Seri who's been coordinating this with somebody else called Iman Osman. They created digital artworks, riffing off the Sudanese collections. In collaboration with them, they told us, obviously, what's happening in Sudan at the moment is really, really hard. It's dark and terrible. The impact of that is really not to be underestimated. But they told us they wanted to work on this programme to focus on hope, to think about hopeful futures, about exploring what the collections can mean, so looking back to look forward, and they created several digital artworks, actually that we featured in the museum. We hosted a launch event, and we're now developing the second phase of that programme, working with researchers from Sudan at UCL, working with the UCL Sudanese Society, working with the same artists and developing a strand that we hope will continue for some years. [00:07:33] Michael Spence: You've also been working with Sudanese school children or young people from the communities here in the diaspora? [00:07:40] Catriona Wilson: Yes, we have through the Sudan supplementary school system based in London and also the Nubian Youth Hub with a man called Rashid Al Sheikh, who has worked with the Petrie Museum for quite a long time. [00:07:50] Michael Spence: That's partly about helping people think through issues of the heritage of the area in which they live, but it's complex because Sudan is presumably a post colonial construction of one kind or another. The cultures that we think of as Egyptian and Sudanese, or the heritage that we think of as Egyptian and Sudanese, has a slightly different story. How do you work that through with young people, and how do they work it through? [00:08:18] Dr. Anna Garnett: At this point in time, those questions are particularly pertinent because for thousands of years, there has been let's say, a swinging pendulum of power between Egypt and Sudan. At different times, Egypt controlled Sudan, Sudan controlled Egypt. The relationship has often been fraught at times, whereas at the moment, actually, as Catriona said, it's an incredibly hard time to be addressing these questions. But the relationship between Egypt and Sudan, in some ways is closer than it has been for a long time because so many Sudanese refugees are entering Egypt after having been displaced due to the war. I was captivated by working with a young boy through the Sudan Supplementary Schools programme. He was part of a creative event that was held at the Petrie Museum, which was run by one of the Sudanese artists that we were working with as part of the project, Ahmed. This young boy, his parents were from Sudan, but he himself had never been to Sudan. And so he created this beautiful poem, which he read out in front of the group with great nerves, but he did a wonderful job. It really highlighted these questions of identity. This idea that for some people, there are two Sudans, for many members of diaspora communities all over the world, that they know the Sudan that they're taught about in London, for example, but then, of course, there's the Sudan in Sudan, which in some ways is very different, but that they're not able to experience firsthand. [00:09:54] Michael Spence: What on the whole is the impact of engagement with the collection on these young people? Obviously, it helps them think through questions of identity. You've talked about ways in which the artists feel that it can give them hope by looking back to look forward. But what's the impact been overall? [00:10:14] Catriona Wilson: Well, we know that we've been working on a project focusing on the centenary of the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb with children in Egypt and children in East London as well simultaneously with some of this other work. [00:10:27] Michael Spence: We have a necklace that may have belonged to Tutankhamun, is that right? [00:10:32] Catriona Wilson: Yes. Arguably, possibly. We won't say yes. Potentially. We know from that project because we've evaluated it that the impact on the children is that for Egyptian children, they've seen their culture respected in this way. They were able to create a display in the Petrie Museum. They weren't able to visit it, but they were able to see it. The evaluation 12 months after the project showed that they changed how they viewed some things. We were told that they understood that the future of Heritage is in their hands, for example. The London children did things like visited another museum. Having never visited a museum before, in many cases, had visited other museums in the 12 months after the project. They had learnt and remembered things from that project, 12 months previously, and I've got young children, so that's quite a feat! They'd really experienced university life, and they'd seen a different side of how collections can interact with people and the stories that can be told. [00:11:29] Michael Spence: Heritage is in their hands. But actually, it's in our hands. What does the archaeological community in Egypt and Sudan think about the Petrie Museum? Do they think, well, that's great, but we'll have it back, thanks? How do you engage with them? [00:11:47] Dr. Anna Garnett: We have a very active working relationship with colleagues, both in the Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities in Egypt, but also with the National Corporation for Antiquities and Museums in Sudan. Of course, as you can imagine, at this time in Suda, at a time of war and issues surrounding, for example, the looting of museums, these issues are in many ways, more important than ever to talk about. The fact that we hold objects from Sudan in London, in Bloomsbury, in a very small museum on the first floor of a very small building. [00:12:23] Michael Spence: It's so you see one of the world's best collections above a Pizza Shop. [00:12:26] Catriona Wilson: Above a former stables. [00:12:30] Dr. Anna Garnett: I use this a lot, above a pizza oven in a former stables, and in many ways, that we make the best of the space and the opportunity. There's a lot of potential, of course, in the collection to do much more. We have a close working relationship with colleagues in these organisations, and the conversation is always open. It's very much a two way conversation that we don't have currently or historically any active repatriation requests from Egypt or Sudan. But from our perspective, maintaining these professional relationships, partly myself through working in Egypt and working in Sudan. Being able to develop the relationships on a one to one face to face basis is incredibly important. For the collection itself. There's also a diversity of opinion across archaeological colleagues in Egypt and in Sudan. For example, you could speak to a colleague in Egypt who works in a museum, and they say, well, of course, we're not interested in having objects repatriated. There are so many objects already in Egypt, it's wonderful that Egyptian culture is being highlighted, is being shouted about in London so that more people can experience it. But on the opposite end of the spectrum, there are colleagues who quite rightly believe that objects in the collection, particularly those first and oldest, the world's oldest known, most complete garment, why on earth is that not in Egypt? And so we open those conversations. Again, those conversations and those themes, which can be quite controversial, are always weaved into not only our teaching, so our HE teaching at UCL and with other HE institutions, but also in our public engagement and interpretation of the collection. We ask that question as soon as visitors come into the museum now, should this collection be here? Why is this collection in London? Absolutely, just as you would expect from visitors based in London based in the UK, there's a real diversity of opinion. [00:14:43] Catriona Wilson: Also, part of it is that meeting people where they are, so Anna teaching in Arabic, making sure we work in Egypt, as well as in the UK. We'll work in Sudan again when we can, and making sure that we just continue trying. We're two white British women managing a collection of formerly colonially removed objects. All we can do is make a really conscious effort to try and try again and fail a bit and fail badly and try again. We just keep finding ways to challenge tropes and challenge stereotypes, and welcome people and figure out where the power imbalances are and try and fix those and keep trying. [00:15:23] Michael Spence: In the meantime, you are celebrating and engaging with a remarkable cultural tradition here in a major world centre that does create access to this collection for not only our students, but also people from all over the world. How many visitors do you have a year? [00:15:43] Catriona Wilson: Upwards of 20,000, we can achieve more if we're on a street front. I like to think of the Petrie Museum as a bit like a shop window for the whole of UCL. UCL is really outward facing, and the Petrie Museum is the same. We're part of that media. We collaborate with researchers across UCL, not just teaching and research, but all kinds of activities. They also collaborate externally. [00:16:05] Michael Spence: Is the collection being digitised to make it available to people from around world? [00:16:09] Catriona Wilson: Absolutely. We think that it's hard to prove. But we think that the collection was the first complete collection available online with a picture of every object. [00:16:17] Michael Spence: Wow. That's a pretty impressive first. [00:16:19] Catriona Wilson: Thanks to the work of Stephen Kirk and others around at the time. [00:16:23] Dr. Anna Garnett: Late 1990s early 2000. Documentation projects. [00:16:26] Michael Spence: Is that resource widely used? [00:16:29] Catriona Wilson: Really heavily used. We get something upwards of about 50, 60,000 hits a year using that and many, many from Egypt. [00:16:35] Michael Spence: Last time I was in the Petrie, people were doing a lot of very precise scientific archaeology about, I think it was early techniques in relation to forging iron or some other particular kind of metal. What's the balance in your work between servicing that very high level scholarly interest and the public engagement work? [00:17:03] Catriona Wilson: It is difficult. The museum space is small, so sometimes we can't have all activities occurring at the same time. The collections been renowned for quite a long time and officially recognised as being this critical research resource. We have arts council designation status, which means we're recognised as internationally significant of research. That's recently been reflected again in an award from the UKRI Higher Education Museums and Galleries fund. Across several UCL museums, including the Petrie, the Grant, UCL Art Museum, Pathology, and Science collections, we've received 2.4 million across five years. It really is active in that sense. We have 1,000 inquiries a year, and we have 300 visiting researchers a year. Fitting that in is essential and difficult at the same time. We just have to figure out which activities can occur and try and make sure that everybody gets what they need. [00:18:02] Michael Spence: Now, you got these remarkable jobs. You're handling sandals and necklaces and other very personal objects that are a thousand years old. You have a connection in history. You have a connection across space and culture with people in Egypt and the Sudan. You have connections here in the UK as you help communities think through their past and what their past means for their present and their future. There must be moments in your work life that have almost brought you to tears because they have touched you particularly. Can you think of one memory where you thought actually this job is really worth doing? [00:18:55] Catriona Wilson: Probably weekly, even daily. Both of us would say this and totally genuinely, but it's a dream job. I wouldn't... this place. I love the Petrie collection. Just this morning talking to students, working with one of the objects and seeing them experience it for the first time. The first day, on my first day in the job, there was a 7-year-old who came in and just rambled at me for half an hour about favourite Egyptian objects, and I just knew I'd landed in a place that was going to bring me great joy. I think before I hand over to you, you'll have millions. You'll keep us forever now. The Sudan's Living Cultures event last year where we had a 60, 70 people, the maximum number, I think it's 70 isn't it, come to the museum and celebrated and had a glass of wine and listened to some music. It was just so joyful. I went home and I wrote an email at midnight because I was so excited about how brilliant it was. It was just beyond wonderful. [00:19:55] Michael Spence: It sounds pretty special. [00:19:56] Catriona Wilson: Yeah. [00:19:57] Dr. Anna Garnett: I'm incredibly fortunate because if I wrote out the job I wanted when I was 7-years-old, ultimately, this is it and more. But working in Egypt and Sudan for coming up to 20 years now, you begin to see very quickly that what is special about ancient Egypt and ancient Sudan is the fact that these are, ultimately, living cultures. People are still living in these landscapes. They're living within this history. Through experiencing, being in those countries and being among those cultures, that's what I think is the very special element for all of us of working in the Petrie Museum collection. I think that the Sudan Living Cultures private view, for me, something that will always stay with me is that bearing in mind that a lot of the people that attended are Sudanese, or as part of a Sudanese diaspora community, Nubian, they have relatives who are in Sudan who may have endured just awful situations and yet they came to the Petrie Museum. Some of them had never been, many of them, and they left with such joy, and one of them said that she had trepidation coming to the museum. But as soon as she opened the door, the smell of the beautiful Sudanese perfume that the ladies were wearing meant that immediately she felt at home coming into the museum, and it was that point of calm for her that she built this up in her mind and obviously, lots and lots of things going on politically, but also personally. But as soon as she was within that space and could just smell that perfume. It's really about how the senses bring you to a place, I guess that will stay with me really forever. [00:21:42] Michael Spence: Thank you so much for spending the time with me today, but thank you for what you do with and through and for the Petrie collection. It is a remarkable collection, and a great resource, not only for the university and the UK, but for the people of Egypt and the Sudan and the wider world. So thank you. [00:21:58] Dr. Anna Garnett: Thank you very much. [00:21:59] Catriona Wilson: Thanks. [00:22:02] Michael Spence: Coming up next on Faces of UCL, we'll be speaking with Dr. Michael Sulu, who's a lecturer in biochemical engineering, but also the UCL Envoy for Race Equality, exploring his work and impact at UCL and beyond.