Episode 36: Marc Matthews

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Face Your Ears podcast. I'm joined here with my co-host Justin Hola from Michigan. How you doing, buddy?

I'm doing well. Rich, how are things in New Jersey?

it's going well here. A lot of planning happening. Uh, I got, I had a few, uh, recording sessions happen this past week. I've been working with this band called Star Drop. It's Japanese anime inspired music. Good

Cool.

How about you? How about on your end?

I actually just last night finished a demo for a song. For the music project I'm doing called Same, not Same. So I sent that to my friend Jay and he freaked out and I was like, this is great. I love this. And so we've got another single in the, in the pot getting cooked and uh, I should be out sometime in the near future. So excited to have. New irons in the fire creatively speaking I had some releases recently.

excellent. any announcements.

One thing I wanted to share with our listeners is Rich and I are starting to venture out. Into this scary world of YouTube. It's been, it's something we've wanted to do ever since we started this podcast, but I think we really wanted to kind of find our voice and our cadence with the podcast. And we feel really confident in that now. So now we're venturing out to YouTube with shorts. So we're, we're starting to upload those. I think our most recent one, we got a copyright strike or something.

who would've thought it's not. Not all stock audio is.

it's created equal, I guess. Yeah. So, uh, I just need to fix that up. But it's been fun to create some of these shorts and it's a lot easier than I thought. So definitely keep an eye out for our YouTube shorts. We'll put a link to our YouTube channel in the show description so you can check that out easily. And something else I also wanted to plug is. Inside the Mix, uh, which is a podcast that Rich and I had the opportunity and the pleasure of being on with Host Marc Matthews.

All right.

Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be

be,

I

I like that opening. There's

in there that I forgot. to be fair, that was in my, uh, my bio. And

impressive, doesn't

Yes. Yes.

of the words, the buzzwords I put in there as well, make your ears bleed. Uh, I, I dunno where I

Dunno.

But it,

But

it

yeah, it was heavy music.

drop B, so it was pretty

Wow.

Nice.

feel it through the bass

that's great.

But no, it's a

It's a pleasure. Um, so yeah, was also pleasure having you guys

podcast. For your audience, um, obviously you're gonna put links in here, but it was episode 191. I had to look this up myself. And 194

great.

Yeah.

approaching 200 episodes. I

Wow.

weeks.

Amazing. Yeah. Welcome Marc. I'm so glad you could join us. It's, it's really great to have you. Swap roles. You know, you're so often the host and so it's great to have you as a guest and we, again, loved being on your podcast and and are so excited to have you here.

I think

Like

common

common mistake

in terms of

in

the

the actual

prep

itself,

sort of stray and erroneous peaks, I would say in particular, like one shot could be a sna, could be a buildup of energy throughout the track. So what

What I do is

the engineers do as well, I'm not sure what the mixing phase is to import a track into something like RX audio. just look at the track as a whole and look at the the measurements. I can't

come

called in loudness in in RX audio, but you can look at the, all the key meter, all the key details in there, your true peak, your RMS, your integrated your short term, your momentary. Your sample peaks as well. All that

right in there. And

and yeah,

yeah. One thing I

a lot of, in particular with more

saw a beginner

novice mix engineers, which is fine

fight.

gotta start somewhere, right? Are

Are those

peaks, which is going to have an impact on what we call your crest factor, which is the difference between the sort of the peak, the loudest part of the

the loudest part of

and the average level. So you want that really? statement, eight to 12 db, let's say for a good playback on most systems. one

One key bit,

I would give is if you can, as, as a mixer or you're a producer mixer, you're a music or an artist, is get

but get something like

Audio. Forgive me 'cause I cannot think of a, a free version, but there probably is

probably isn't.

sort of free. Or similar free version out there where you can just look at your track as a whole and just look at those waveform stats and just look for those erroneous wild peace, because that is going to limit that crest factor. And if you don't

Don't take those out,

then

then that's gonna incur

gonna hurt further

further down the line in terms of loudness.

Now obviously we're not, when we're mastering, we're not shooting for a target, that's not what we're doing. We're getting it to a conducive level of where it's best for the music. But at the same time, if you're having those erroneous, those loudness moments in there, those stray transients, those wild snares or buildup of energy or something, it's gonna hurt that further down the line. It's gonna require more clipping. And the more you clip something, the further, yeah, I mean, in terms of.

That is probably.

the most. I had a mix sent across to me, I. A couple weeks ago, it was exactly that. It, it was, it was decent enough, but I had to go back as I do as

I do as an engineer anyway, I always have that back and forth

saying, okay, you've sent this

set. This tracker

Here's what I've noticed. You might

might want to a direct,

before we get to the mastering stage as that way it'll give me more scope, more room for maneuvering when it comes to mastering. So that back and forth there. So

so

listening again,

again, if you've got that opportunity.

Actually talk to an engineer, and I think we'll go through this later when we touch on ai, actually talk to an engineer and have that back and forth relationship where they can give you advice and say, okay, maybe you need to do this or you might wanna consider this next time. And this probably would be one of those. So that would

that would be my one.

my number one in terms of the mix. I got a second, but it's not

Not mixed.

if you want to hear it.

Yes, we want to hear

Absolutely.

do.

Yes.

is more to do with documentation, which is quite dry. It's quite a dry subject, but it's an important one. Now, as an engineer, when I, uh, work with a project on a project with someone, I'll send them a document to fill in and I try and get as

As much.

from them as I can. In terms of I cannot stress the importance of reference, a suitable reference for your mastering engineer. Obviously don't just shoehorn one in there for the sake of it. Get something that is in the same style. It's what you are shooting for in terms of sonics, soundscape, and overall vibe and feel. but things like the Title I. It's also useful to know the BPM, the key, and also little things like fades and fade in and fade

Faded out

do you want that fade out to start? How do you want it? Do you want a steep slope? Do you want a gentle

gentle,

Do you want a less

less gentle.

I guess you would call it? And the same

Same with fading in as

Little things like that.

well.

I give an example in my document that I hand out of what you could put, it would just. Just speeds up that process. 'cause I'm not then having to go back and say, okay, what do you think of this fade? Check the fades at the end, which you would do

Do anyway, but you've got a good idea already.

of what you are shooting for in terms of how you want it. That's for

That's for a

I mean, if it's for a whole

ING Wild, but then it gets

But that in terms of. you're submitting something, if an engineer sends

into your document

fill it into the best of your ability. Too many

too many times. I have

have a document returned to me where it's not blank, but there's very little in there, the more you can put in there, the better. At the

at the end of the day. Much

is better

better than nothing.

Labeling

files

Labeling files correctly.

correctly. That's another

Label

Label it. Correct.

Also

Also in there, let the engineer know if there are any

comes down to

metadata.

metadata. So who's performed on it? If you've got any ISRC codes, any UPC codes, any barcodes, anything like that. If you've got now, I

Now, I appreciate if you upload to a distro that's when.

It. So it might be. Too soon to have that

That information, but

already got it, if you are

if you're

getting

getting that,

through PPL over in the UK for example, then great. yeah,

yeah, any

like that just helps.

information.

at the beginning and the end of the file leave space, leave some dead air. That way I can top and tail it nicely. Don't just have it banged if you come in straight away with a load of music. not room for me there really to put a three millisecond gap, which I'm gonna need. so that,

That, that would be my other.

it's like I say,

Like I said, it's a bit dry,

but

but if an engineer asks for information,

with it, I would say.

I hear all of that and I'm like I agree so fervently and I'm like, it's not dry at all to me. 'cause I'm like, I'm in that world. And it totally makes sense that having those details just makes your job easier and it reduces the back and forth. Like to your point, yes, there's gonna be some conversation and stuff, but let's minimize that and mitigate that as much as possible. And one clarifying question for me, like. In terms of peaks and stuff.

definitely.

So

automation's a good

good

'Cause you

one might have

a, let's say you've got a drop or you're going the other

Side of a drop,

then you've just got a buildup of energy. You've got a bass drum, you've got your kick drum, you've got bass, you might have a guitar coming in at the same time. You've just got that, that buildup of energy. So in there you could use some automation, you could bring down the level of one of those instruments. That is with that

that energy

there. Or you could drop it out altogether, for example. but

build when it comes to things like random snare hit or it might crash or

I'm using drum

brunt it.

normally it is drums. Occasionally you get a

Vocal, but

it's been mixed correctly, you'd like to think there won't be some wild vocal. But if there is, then I would say you need to go back and do some, some clip gain on that vocal or address it with some compression or something. Or maybe

maybe even

or a limiter on it. If you are, if it's

stick that wild.

But yeah,

Yeah. More often than not, I would say

probably automation or just, maybe you've just got too much going on in that particular frequency range. If it's kick in bass, you might wanna try using some eq. Maybe you've just got too much in your low frequencies. Maybe you need to scoop a bit out of the bass or out of the kick drum, just so it's not building up so much. The trick

Trick there, or rather the challenged there

With more amateur mixes, I would say is that sometimes

that.

to your listening environment not being conducive to being able to hear those frequencies specifically in the low frequency range. if you are monitoring and you haven't got, let's say, a sub really does

Does help

if you live, if you've got neighbors. if, uh, they're not gonna appreciate you

you

just on

on loop

that

that low frequency

Boom, over and

over and over again.

not appreciate that. So that's where

That's where headphones can come in

also things like

like total.

from Izotope, where you can go in and you can vis visually, you can see where there's a frequency buildup and use that as a reference tool. Obviously, world, we wanna be using our ears however,

However, sometimes

For example, you live in a block of flats. It's one

one o'clock working.

frequencies. You probably don't want your sub everybody up. I

I certainly,

be your neighbor if that were the case. So little things like that. Yeah.

yeah.

in short, to answer your question, I would use things like automation most definitely, and also consider your sound choices.

Mm-hmm.

Are competing with one another. you got a bass and a kick that are operating primarily in the same frequency range with the, with that fundamental frequency of the kick and the bass, you might wanna scoop a bit out of one, just so you're making space, so you haven't got that frequency buildup.

Yeah. Awesome. Th thank you for that. That was really great insight. I appreciate it.

My

So Marc, many artists are tempted to master their own tracks. In your view, uh, when does it make sense to bring in a mastering engineer instead of self mastering? And to add to that. What do you think about all of this AI mastering stuff that's coming out, all these AI mastering tools, um, like I know Logic has built in mastering tools. You also have sites like, I don't know if you've ever seen e mastered things like that.

Yeah,

Yeah, I.

to answer the first one with regards to whether to reach out to a mastering engineer and I, I remember having this conversation 'cause I've had other mastering engineers on my podcast

And

think it's a

really good.

learning opportunity if you can experience or spend

Spend some time

for someone to master one of your tracks, do your due due diligence and find someone who

works in your,

of music. And if you

if you

get

get

a call

on or

them to have a

have a

about your track, or even if

discussion via email, you just get back,

and just

learn what they do.

and have that

That feedback,

if you, as a mix engineer, have an

have an understanding of the mastering process

on, it will

greatly help

when it comes to

finalizing

because you know, as a

your mastering engine

you've got an awareness of what a

or mastering.

is. Is looking for in a deliverable of a mix. Not

Mm-hmm. I'm not saying, I'm not saying be an expert.

but at least if you've got, this goes back to what I was

That's why saying

those, those erroneous and stray peaks. If you've got an

got an awareness.

well, I need to be checking for those before I send it off to a mastering engineer. Little things like that will

That will help you so much.

the long term. And

And going back to what I said earlier about the, the

low frequency energy as well, which is a, which is a common one that we see either is either too much or it's too little because you can't hear it properly. And just having that awareness. And

in, in an ideal world, you can pick up the phone and say,

come and hang out

hang out with you.

and just learn a bit about mastery? Which some will be, some will love it, some will. I've done it. I remember when I was, when I was

I was studying and.

a, there was a great guy, uh, half old Mastery up in Glen Morgan, Donald Wheeling and I went and spent some time with him and it was brilliant. But others may be less so, but there are some great resources out there as well. Online courses that you can do, again, do your due diligence 'cause there are a lot of courses, but do your due dili, do your due diligence and just find the one that's right for you.

I think it's have.

at it. Most definitely like yourself. There's, uh, again, go back to what I said there. There's plenty of tutorials online. I was just on YouTube just now and I saw immediately there was a thumbnail saying mastering made simple in Logic Pro. just little things like that

that.

have a look.

I was gonna say, take it with a pitch

that'd be the

that be the wrong,

but don't

don't take it.

Just spend

Spend as much time.

immerse yourself in all this various academia and learning, and just

Understand.

a real, there's a guy, on YouTube what's his name? Nick Lorenzo. be Nick and his YouTube channel. Go check it out. There is so much good information on there in terms of mastering, and he gets into the real scientific nitty gritty of it, which are highly encouraged. If you are interested in mastering, go and check that guy out. Really, really, really great stuff on there. And you'll get loads out of that. Loads out that, and he has a course as well, which you can go on and do if you want to.

Yeah, to answer that question

it a go yourself. But at

but

time, if you can and get some feedback on your mixes from other engineers, from mastering engineers, because it will help you in the long term. Most definitely. And there are

there are services

offer one

offer.

you can submit a mix for feedback. Do something like that from an established engineer, Don Morley, who was on my podcast you mentioned right at the beginning, he does it as well, mixed consultancy, and the more you do that and get that feedback, the more you'll improve quicker, essentially. So that

Yes.

the next part, which is about ai.

No. I gotta, I didn't feel, I wanna bring it down to mood or anything bringing it up ai. Right. You know, so I'm just, I just wanted to say that. Right. I know we, we tend to talk about AI a lot on our podcast 'cause it's like, you know, the thing that's coming in, it's like this behemoth coming in and destroying a lot of conceptions of the way things are derived and the way we do things. So, but we always like to get people's opinion and have at it. Go with it.

Yeah, ai I,

i.

leverage ai as much as I can, but I leverage it in terms of doing tasks that I don't like to do, and that isn't music related. That is, for example I run the podcast and I use AI to help me with proofreading scripts or proofreading episode descriptions, or coming up with helping me come up, coming up with titles or thumbnail ideas, and that's how I use ai. Now when

Now when it comes to,

itself and audio there are

there are some great tools out,

Izotopes. Mastering

your system?

It's so good. And what I'd

I'd probably say it's this

if you are

who are mastering

music, you are

you are going down that route

use something like Izotope and use their mastering assistant. you are not. Experienced with mastering because again,

Again, this could be a. Statement and others may see,

different, but I think

I think you'll probably do harm then. Good.

and master it yourself. To begin with, I would probably start with

start with something like

assistant and AI like

Izotope, because

good if you do that. The great

the great thing about it's

you can then

then look and see

and then you can start to deconstruct that and think, okay,

else is saying that I need.

in my upper mids. I wonder why that

Why that is.

and address that in my mix and compare it to my reference. Okay.

Okay. It's saying I've got

to. I have a, a low shelf on anything below a hundred hertz. Why is that? Have I got too much going on down there? okay. It's got some wild

eye compression.

why that is.

Little things like that, you can start

and think, okay, well it's saying that

now. The caveat there is

it is only

only

in terms of ones and zeros. It's reacting.

Reacting is

else. statements basically to your music, so you don't want to

Don't want to take here.

If you're

It's gonna use something like Izotope.

Make

Make sure you

a suitable reference as well, so you're getting as close as you can what it is that you're trying to achieve. It does

does have some.

banks in there, but what they've done

They've done their is

if you, if you select a reference existing already

already in Izotope.

Like rock, that's

That's just an average of rock.

have been chucked into it basically. then it's

Then it's gonna

at, it's gonna assess and

and analyze.

assess and analyze it against an average. Of those songs that have been chucked into it. So

wherever you can use your

'cause you can chuck your own reference tracks in there. And

and

also,

so again.

make sure you just don't, just take its word for it, deconstruct it. And also just because it does something doesn't mean you have to use it.

Yeah.

mean you have to use it,

As with all of it, right? With everything at any point, it's a creative process, all of this, right?

A hundred percent. And the same with online ones. Now, I've

I've.

admittedly, I've never used an online one

Yeah, some of the, some of the distributors have it built in, uh, that I noticed. And then you got like, eMastered I think was one of the ones I saw.

Now I know DistroKid got one, and, uh, I use DistroKid as my platform for distributing my own music. And then it

always does that.

you upload it and then it'll play what, what it thinks it should sound like. And I'm like,

After you got done doing all that work, I love it. Yeah. It's a,

I'm not sure about that. I

I remember

I was

I was speaking to you

Winer on my, on my podcast, and he said it's, it comes

hands down's, ultimate uh, legacy versus

something out there. So if you want his,

his

was if you want something that's gonna last

lasted test.

when you

when you wanted that

Physical, that person, that

mastering

involved and

into that relationship.

and forth. But I think the AI Mastering assistance are great. If you want to get an overall perception of what. your mix could sound like, overall I think with ai, use it to your advantage, but I wouldn't necessarily rely on that, that's what I would say. And nothing is gonna be the human element. creativity, those Happy

Happy accident.

get where you move something you accidentally chop a loop in half, or you accidentally put a fade on something and you're like, actually, ooh, I actually like that. Or you think, actually, what,

Well, I like having this.

extra low end, even though AI

AI says it should be.

it, so I'm gonna

Leave it in there.

gonna get that with AI unless further down the line

Yeah.

more sentient and.

I like that. I think what it makes me think about is agency. So you, you risk giving up your agency just going click and then that's it, that's the master. And throwing up your hands. And so I like where your, your perspective is in that. It's about using it as a tool, using it as a reference, but not necessarily just. Clicking a button and calling it done. It certainly offers a lot of convenience. I mean, that's kind of its whole reason for being.

I think Add to that as well. I dunno about

About you guys?

I can quickly out when something is heavily relying on ai and, um, I had, uh, I've got a playlist and I remember somebody submitted some music to that playlist and I was listening to it and I was just like, you could, the, the lyrics, The, the, the vocal, the structure of the song. The sound of it. And I was like this is clearly it. And then I went on

On Spotify.

it was literally, the artwork was AI as well. And they were

Were upfront saying

But I think at

big. Otherwise

you'll quickly be able to pick it out as well and you'll, you, I think if you rely on

we're on it too much.

outside of

of AI assisted

you will just fall into a bucket of mediocrity, if not underneath less than mediocre, to be honest. If you, if Because we

man, love creativity. We love innovation.

and We.

We.

to things that peak our interest

music is an, is an exclusively human thing. I mean, it always like boggles my mind that one of the first big innovations in AI is all of this music stuff that they're coming up with. It's like, come on, get rid of all the boring stuff, sorting of data in some office or something. Why

Yeah. Scheduling my dentist appointment,

yes.

stuff like that, that like, mundane. Yeah. But it,

are.

why are.

to take away the, the element that we love? Like creative element, you know, why are

Yeah,

Yeah,

it A.

but I think it's that love for it that probably made people jump to creating that kind of technology for it, because the person who's at home who doesn't know how to do any of these things, like these specialized skills like mixing and mastering and, or even singing or playing an instrument, that's probably why those tools were created. For. People to be able to do those things quickly and to have the barrier to entry being really low. But what does it do in the big picture? Who

There. There was actually one thing that I did like, and I saw this earlier and I was listening to another podcast, a music production podcast, and I dunno if you've heard of it. It's called Co-Producer. I haven't used it yet, and I actually saw an ad. for this. And as an individual, they were working on a loop and then they wanted a particular sound of or vibe, and they went into this co-producer, this, this plugin. you, you put in there what you want and then you prompt it what you want.

what

for. So it will match it in terms of you put in the key. It'll automatically, uh, tempo

tempo

as

as

Time

And also

it will then follow your prompt for those, that funky house key, those funky house keys. And then it will come up with a list of various

samples

could use. And I thought that was

that was quite.

that.

That expedites the process.

I think. but then you get

Then you get into the argument.

Are your songs just samples put into a track? Is any of it actually played by you? But that's a whole nother discussion. I'm all for using samples. I use samples myself. When I'm stuck for ideas. I pull them in, pull them apart, time, stretch them do what I need to them. But I thought that was quite good. it's kind of like

Like having a producer.

with you. Not having to pay thousands, you're only paying 9, 9, 9 a month rather Thousands to have a producer sat next to you. So I thought that was quite a good use of artificial intelligence.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

that's cool.

For me it's good. Is good enough. I find, because as creators we are perfectionists, right? I dunno about you guys, but you are, you are, and you are

Oh yeah. I.

critics as well. I don't think I've ever released a track. my own that I haven't released it and thought vocal, I could have done more there. I could have done something to

Yeah.

that kick that bass, just not quite hitting the way I want. But you've gotta know where to draw the line because you get that to that point of diminishing returns. And for me, I find if I go. With mixed revisions. For example, if I end up getting to around four or five, I'm then entering the point of diminishing returns and I'm, I'm then doing that thing, what you mentioned then, and Justin, which is, I'm tweaking a snare, or I'm automating something up at DB or 2 ultimately.

Fine.

Yeah. Yeah.

yes,

you gotta think

yes.

who, your who, your. Your audiences, because are you

Are you making music?

audio engineers? Probably not.

should be a whole platform just for that, where we can just

Whoa. That's

Mastered for audio engineers.

that, that's like title and, and is it Cobols or KBOs, whatever it's called, where you can go on there, you can listen to it in high Fidelity. My mates always sending me tracks on there and I'm like, mate, I listen to it on

Spotify, like three.

kbps, you know, I've

Yeah.

ing to it

Yeah.

But going back

Going

mindset shift, it's, Yeah,

yeah, good

is Good enough for me. I find like you gotta get to the point,

set. Set a time

a deadline for when you want that track done. What

What I tend to do now is to keep.

when I'm releasing my own stuff, is I'll release on social media when that track's gonna be launched, and then that's it. I've gotta stick to that then, and I, I mean, I don't have to, I'm not saying I'm, my, my

Following

It's not vast, but

but psychologically.

it, it's out there now. to, so I need to know that mix is gonna be done at least four weeks before that time that it's gonna go live on streaming platforms. 'cause I've then gotta get it mastered as well. So I need to allow

Yeah.

to be mastered too. So setting deadlines certainly does help. And I think also, I did an episode on this recently to bring

Bring down.

iteration process. I think that's where we often fall foul is mix iterations. And I've had this

We've had this conversation.

on my podcast when I've done coaching episodes. When they say they've done sort of like 20, 20 iterations of a mix, start with

with a

a

balance of your mix.

what we call a static mix and that all

Now all that involves is

pan. Get it,

get it. Get your mix.

whereby you've done no other processing but level. And that's not processing, but you've got it

Level,

everything sitting where kind of nicely, where it needs to be. And then pan and then

then start your,

there. Because if you do that, I find my experience is that your amount of mix iterations dramatically reduces.

I like that

I, it it

It works.

really does. 'cause I spoke to Nate Kelms of the Sound Discussion podcast about this and his philosophy was that if you start with a

A static

do all your processing, if you to take away that

Weigh that process.

should still stand on its own to a decent level Just doing that because you're

Just set yourself up for success.

Then. It makes it

That's great.

You're

You're not having to do

movements with faders. You're not having to To automate that by

what?

It's

Like

DB here and there, wherever you need to do it. 'Cause the further

further down you go. Logic.

if it's the same with other daws. The further you move that fader down, the more movement it requires to make a noticeable difference, which is quite interesting.

So you talked about for yourself, what you do for yourself to break that cycle and get it

Yeah, it's a tricky one

Because again,

that, because again, you, some

some people are more self-critical,

think of themselves and, and lack

like that

Confidence in their own convictions of what it is. they've

decided on, but

ultimately I just remind them.

music. It's your vision

you want it to be ultimately. And

ultimately an audience.

there for it somewhere. And the another

Another key thing to

with those individuals

do,

not

not compare yourself to others.

think that's, that's

That's

problem. media is

media is great. Getting

your brand out there,

out there.

communicating, building audience, and we need it. We need it for podcasting, we need it for music and, and all this and whatnot. But it's so easy to fall into that trap of com of

Competition.

at others and thinking they're there. Why Am I

Am I there?

to be where they are. And then you can just, that self-doubt just creeps in then. So

So it's easy for me to say not

yourself to others. 'cause inherently we

worth.

Just think

I think they were once in the

you are now and it just takes time. Takes time and it's time and

position, effort, and

that creative muscle. The more you do, the more music you put out, the better you're gonna get. You're gonna

act, learn every time.

Yeah,

Yeah, you might not be.

be slightly reticent about putting this one out there because you don't like your vocal in this one here, but you can take that and learn from that and move forward, and in the next one you can do something different. Okay. I did that in that particular release. Didn't like it. I've gone

Gone away and I've learned how to.

I've learned how to record my vocal properly. I've learned how to prepare. To sing Like, uh, we did on, we discussed that on our, on my podcast

Yes. Yes.

Rich. Yeah, just be, just know that, okay, you might not be happy with it now, but the more you do, the more you put out there, the better you're gonna get. that's what

That's what I would do I'm a very positive person.

and I think surround

Round yourself with,

What's the statistic? You are, like

like I

The five closest people to you. I think there's something like

said,

and just make sure those people are very positive as well, and you'll find it'll rub off on you too, is no silver bullet

there is no silver.

I find

Yeah.

just know that you're gonna get better. The more you do it, the better you'll get.

I often like to remember that perfection is the enemy of creativity, and so if your focus is on being perfect, you're never going to move forward, you have to take. Some risk in any endeavor, musical or otherwise. And so that's how you learn. I think, that's something you were touching on is like, this is how you grow and you learn is

Yeah.

do it.

Yeah, a

Yeah, that.

Yes.

We were often fed this and it was, uh, Carol's work, which is, I'm, I can't do that yet. The end, it's that growth mindset

Love that.

uh, and that resilience that you need to build within yourself. Because with music, in the music industry there's a lot. As soon as you put

Put yourself out that you are.

yourself up to people. listening to your music and then commenting on it, you take it with a pinch of salt.

absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think for me,

I, it was the wealth

wealth of

I. And this kind of ties into what I was saying earlier about doing your due diligence in terms of

information

you're consuming to push yourself forward. 'cause there's a lot

a lot out.

If you go on YouTube there, there are so many engineers. Hands in the air, do it myself as a podcaster, talking about it, offering information. So do your due diligence, reach out to others that you are. Other engineers and just get, um, get sign,

Time get signed

to stuff. But basically for

for me of that

was

it was

knowing to

where.

So I

So I took the

the idea, or I took the route of academia. So I went and enrolled. did an evening course first, and and then I did a foundation degree. Then I did

in a.

fully fledged degree in music production, and then I did a master's degree. In music production and, uh, and audio engineering as rich mentioned right at the beginning. I

I kind of

that learning process in an academic realm, which was

great.

I had a

I had a great time doing

loved it.

it.

some great experiences, used some amazing equipment, also got sort of spend some time in. Recording studios with engineers, with mastering engineers as well, through that experience. So that

That really did help me.

'cause my

My biggest problem.

begin with. I remember the, the whole reason I got into sort of music production, uh, I was in the band and we were recording an album and I was sat watching the engineer and I was thinking to myself, I wanna know. Why he's doing that? Why is he doing those movements? What's going on here? And then I thought to myself, well, how am I gonna do that? that's why I went down the academic route so that the, the first obstacle was like, where do I start? Where do I begin?

that every day

real world experience rather than when I was

when I was doing the degree, it was great, but sometimes.

writing some essays and I was like, why am I writing an essay on this particular book? Um, I wanna be, I wanna be recording and making music. Why am I writing an essay on this? So I suppose you've gotta pick and choose your battles with that. But yeah, that, that was my biggest obstacle.

Marc you're a font of knowledge. there's so many other questions, uh, that we'd want to get into the weeds with you, and perhaps we will on future

All right, I'll kick us off. So what's the most memorable production gig that comes to mind for you?

Uh, can it be a negative or can it be

Could it be

Oh, a Anything

most memorable?

Yeah. Yeah.

memorable? Yeah.

As

soon as you

soon as you said that?

the most

The most memorable one that came into my head, and I've said this on my side,

I

I think I mentioned this

when I was speaking to one of you

you guys, when I was working in the studio. Oh no,

I wasted beer all over the

the beer, yes.

Yeah.

I won't do that again. Uh, that

Sticks.

I mean, uh, it was, I was sat there. I had an Audi console band behind me tools rig on the

Right. Had

count of fosters on the side, and I just swung round

Aung round in my chair

back

back and knocked over,

and it just died.

oh,

and it

it wasn't my studio.

was dry. It was dry high

And

just like,

I was like, Okay.

And didn't know what to do. Came back the next

The,

it was all, it was all working fine again, but that

Oh my God.

for one group, fader, but that, that was, that sticks in my head

and what I learned from.

An audience listing, if you're in a studio, drinks on the floor,

Oh man. I'm still haunted by that. I think that

Oh God.

we did together. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

uh, I, we went to Nando's. I was like, well, the only thing we can do is go to Nando. I dunno if you get Nandos over in the States, but basically it's just fri, it's just chicken. And we went there and had some

Add some food and I a glass, a big glass of wine.

and

Yeah.

as well.

Yeah.

what's one piece of equipment or plugin you couldn't live without?

my headphones, these headphones, these audio technic, uh, a THM fifties. I've had them for, what is it, 2025. I've had them for 30, maybe 12 years. And apart from the band at the top, losing its fabricy stuff they are rock solid. So it These, for the podcast when it comes to editing everything, mixing and

Nice.

Marc, what is your desert island? Album,

What springs to the right mind straight away. Oh, what is the, there's a typo negative album. Ah, the fact, I can't

I can't remember the name. Probably

be that, but there's a typo. Negative album.

October Rust maybe. Yes.

Yes.

great album. I love that album.

that's

That's got, um, love You to

You to Death,

Death, oh yes. Oh yes.

that one.

It's a great album. Oh, I love

I love typo. Negative. Absolutely.

spirits, these two.

man. We're gonna have a whole episode on typo Negative.

Yeah.

should do it, man. Oh, I'd love it. Every time my mates and I get

Get together without barbecue.

out comes the vinyl bang, typo, negative comes on and then we

Oh,

town and we'll find a

jukebox

negative on

again, everywhere we go.

Love it.

it. that's awesome, man. that's really awesome. if you're not making music, what do you prefer to be doing?

I

I like to paddleboard.

So do a fair bit of that. I live near the coast, quite lucky in that respect. Get to the coast quite quick.

what piece of advice would you give someone who's starting out? With mixing and mastering whatever track they've decided on.

reach

reach out to.

engineers in their sphere of music and just get feedback. People, we'll be very supportive. If you are. Say

Say you, you're.

genre, you're in the metal genre, you're in synth pop, you're in pop music. Just build and reach out to other artists, producers, mix engineers who work in that sphere build a community, a network that you can bounce and forth with because working in a silo, working in. An individual and shutting yourself off, you, you want that back and forth. Send it out to them for feedback. What'd you think of this snail? What'd you think of this mix in general? that would be

That would be.

one is just have individuals that you can bounce ideas back and forth with, and when you, significantly help you, progress quicker.

last question. What do you hope the listeners will walk away with after listening to your music or your podcast? You can decide what you wanna focus on or both.

yeah. What

Yeah, yeah.

to?

I think.

me it's the case of Don't

Don't be worried because I

I tailor it.

it.

Beginners intermediates. There are

there are some very technical.

on the podcast as well, but the

The idea is

start, we all have to start somewhere,

that

and if you put that

put that effort in.

you exercise that creative muscle and you just establish that routine. Don't

Don't wait for motivation

to strike. The only way you're gonna

to get motivation

Is if you start to work and then the motivation will happen. For me, that's the way,

What, that's the way I work and that's the way

it. If you wait for

to motivate. Probably not gonna happen,

You gotta make

but make that motivate

So for me,

me. It's the case of with

and with the music I have is everyone has to start somewhere. Don't be

don't be daunted by,

Don't. Be, don't

don't worry about the, the.

of other people's music, just focus on

on you.

you will get better. The more you do it, the more you exercise that

Greater muscle

more you make mistakes, you learn from

are mistakes,

way to learn. It's the best way to learn. so

so that's why I try and get.

with the is like, just put that effort in and you'll get better ultimately.

I love that, that's such a great mindset. That brings us to the end of our episode and the end of our conversation with Marc and

inviting me on. It's been a pleasure.

And is there anything that you wanted to mention or promote that you have going on, uh, that you want listeners to know about?

Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, one thing I'm doubling down uh, a play is

So it's

my

as you like, but you can sign up

sign up to my newsletter

it's just full of. Tips and tricks to help with music production, uh, not just

not just from me.

engineers as well. Links to other really useful resources, other really other podcasts if I haven't had your episodes in there a few times as well. So it's just a weekly newsletter of useful stuff to help you kick on and create that music that is radio

ready and play.

So, uh, sign up

Sign up for that. I'll send you a link and then you can

episode description and

turn.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

won't

You won't get, it's not spam, you won't get,

by me. It's just once a week you'll get an email with some useful stuff. And if you wanna

you wanna check out inside the mix?

I

I would start with.

Obviously you start with the episodes with, uh, Justin and Rich episodes 1 9 1. I think it said it wasn't

Yeah.

I

Yeah.

so.

something like that. It was, yeah. Uh, then

Then check episode 175.

Which is what's

What's the secret?

without muddiness. There

Oh,

Excellent. Thank you again, Marc. We really appreciate having you here. And for everyone out there listening, thank you so much. Uh, we will put all of these different links in our show description so you can explore and check these things out. And with that, we'll catch you on the next episode. Bye for now.

Bye-bye.