Carlos Sainz: pain, pride + potential

This episode is sponsored by Honda. Since its first Formula One victory in the 1965 Mexico Grand Prix, Honda has always taken what's learned on the track and used it to build better cars for everyone. From pushing limits in F1 to engineering the next generation of hybrids like the Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid, Honda proves that racing doesn't just inspire innovation, it drives it.

And that idea of taking lessons from the racetrack and applying them to road cars has always been a part of Honda's DNA. Decades of engineering in the demanding world of Formula One have helped shape the performance and efficiency you see in Honda's road cars today. And now that same thinking is shaping the next generation of hybrids as well. Cars like the 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Hybrid show that electrification can be both efficient and genuinely fun to drive.

The 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid are engineered for fun. From the racetrack to your driveway. Learn more about the Prelude and Civic and the latest innovations at Honda.com. This episode is presented by Explorer Journeys, redefining luxury ocean travel.

For the Smooth Operator, 2024 Bumpy Ride. I was tested more than I've ever been tested before. I was actually hurt. I was hurt. Now when I look back at it, I'm almost like proud that it happened because me a a much better driver and a much better athlete in me. From finding out he's leaving Ferrari and fighting back from appendicitis, to multiple wins and finalizing his future with Williams. Carlos Sainz has both suffered and celebrated this season.

How does he really feel about being replaced at Ferrari by Lewis Hamilton? Can he understand the team's decision? Is he leaving on good terms? And could he even return one day? Here on F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson. Carlos opens up about the most challenging year of his Formula One career so far. And while he reflects fondly on his Ferrari highlights, Carlos Bruce is also looking forward to his next challenge.

I'll miss the podiums, I'll miss the celebrations, but my target is to get back to there. I'm going to Williams to try and bring Williams back to the possibility of fighting for those podiums. Why has he chosen Williams for 2025 and beyond? Did he commit too soon? Why wouldn't he fit in at Red Bull? What's he expecting from Alex Albon as a teammate? And how will he cope fighting further down the grid? Unfiltered and full of confidence, Carlos is in fine form. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Carlos, great to see you. How are ya? All good, thank you. Everything okay. Well, is everything okay?'Cause we've just got off the long flight from Las Vegas. Uh it's tiring. I'm certainly jet lagged. How are you? As good as I can be. I guess everyone at this stage of the year is running a bit low on batteries. Uh I think it's normal. Uh when they put you a back to back Las Vegas Qatar you're always gonna get to this end of the year a bit tired.

But I've been dealing well with jet lag this year. I've been dealing well with my energy levels towards the second half of the season. Better compared to last year, I did a few changes on my training plan and my season management to get to this end of the year with a bit higher batteries and they seem to be paying off.

So do we have Pierre Luigi Della Bona to thank for this? Your new physio. Yeah, uh together between Pierre Luigi and my uh trainer, also let's say uh performance coach back at home. uh we've put together a plan that it seems to be working well and uh I'm glad to say that uh all those hours of cycling and um different diets, jet like management and different training plans are are paying off.

You've been keeping those guys busier than most this year'cause I'm thinking of the appendicitis in Saudi Arabia. Then there was there's obviously all the travel, there was the crash in Baku as well. They've obviously got some magic potions. Yeah. I think investing on a good team around you is the best thing that a sportsman can do.

Because it's not on the day-to-day basis where you get to feel those things, but it's mainly when something big or when something out of the ordinary happens, like the situation in... In Australia with appendicitis and the situation with uh with the crash in Baku that's when you realise and you notice whether you have a good team around you or not. And I feel like this year I'm very proud, very happy to have the team I have, and it's paid off in the key moments of the year.

Well, let's talk about that key moment you mentioned. So you have an appendectomy in Saudi Arabia. Two weeks later, you win in Melbourne. Just tell us now, how marginal was it? What kind of physical shape were you in? So to give you an idea, the seven days after uh the appendictomy, you called it, I was seven straight days in bed and I couldn't brace, I couldn't use my core every time I sneezed or every time I coughed.

So for seven days, apart from going to a h hyperbaric chamber and receiving some massage, I wasn't moving from my bed. Uh day eight or day nine. I had to catch a flight to Australia. But I still hadn't moved from bed. So I was catching a flight to Australia like I remember leaving home still on pain. and telling my mom, Well here I go. I don't I'm going all the way to Australia without even knowing if I'm gonna be racing.

uh I tell her something like, Imagine if I win. And we had a laugh about it, like, well let's try and race first and then see if you can actually win it. And um my mum was reminding me that after the win, that I I left home saying, Imagine if I actually win and uh since then I actually realised how life can change

so quickly, no? You go from not even knowing if you're gonna race in Australia catching a flight, twenty four hour flight, to suddenly six days later winning in Australia and I remember that was one of the most powerful filling moments in in my life. And so much of driving one of these cars is your core. So how difficult was it when you were in the car? So I remember on Wednesday uh before jumping into the car I went to a circuit. I normally don't go to circuits on Wednesdays.

but in Australia I did and I had a look at my seat, had a look at my belts and said, okay, action plan, I need to protect these wounds because I still had the very thick scars and I was still having to take care of them. Um I brought also a special physio specializing an in Diva machine that gives you electromagnetic uh

impulses to recover the the the wound faster. I still went to hyperbic chambers in Australia to try and recover faster. So I had a plan just to make it happen. But on Wednesday I still thought I don't think I'm gonna be able to race. At that point I call Alex Albon. I said, look, I know you had the appendicitis at some stage a couple of years ago. What did you do to your belts? Alex came, gave me a hand and showed me what he did to his belts. What did he do? Do loosen them.

Eh no, you just protect the buckle, the buckle of the belt, because that's exactly where the wound is. So you just put some foam around it so you are not on the metal of the buckle. And uh he helped me with that. I put some extra foam here and there.

And then on Thursday I went back to the truck, tried it again, I was starting to move a bit better. But then I realized every time I was jumping in and out of the car I was very slow and I was very scared and of doing any strange movements and I was just not feeling confident and when I jumped in the car on Friday, my first three laps, I've never drove so bad a Formula One car in my life because

I just didn't trust that I could brace. So I hadn't braced for more than ten, eleven days. When I mean brace means contracting all your muscles to ho the G force. And I remember going into turn one on the first push lap and not hitting the brake hard because I didn't want to brace for 5G that a Formula 1 produces and I was hitting the brakes 30 bar instead of 120 that I do normally and it was such a

I think so. I think and I first thing I told my team after the first run is I need a softer brake pedal. I normally run a very hard, very stiff brake pedal. em preguntava, can't we change very quickly the pivot of the pedal? First thing we did, change the pedal for the race and I was driving a much softer pedal because I couldn't push it as hard. Then I had to adapt to a softer pedal from FP one, then I started getting a bit confident and little by little I started pushing the limits.

But it was not a comfortable Friday, let's say. I was a bit off the pace also. Wha what about Sunday? How angry was the wound on Sunday night? It was fine. It just got better. The worst day was Friday by far. Uh the thing that I went into Sunday was okay, so far I've done maybe ten, fifteen consecutive laps in one day. uh I don't know how Sunday's gonna go by doing fifty something consecutive laps.

And then I also remember having this feeling of being a bit more scared to crash. Like normally in NF one I never ever thought about I'm scared of crash. But I remember on Friday, Saturday and even Sunday having this feeling like if I crash at thirty, forty, fifty G, that is a average Formula One crash.

How am I gonna brace if I cannot really fully fully fully brace? I hope that my muscles yeah take care of it, you know, and and protect when you when you brace. And I've never had this feeling but it's yeah not a comfortable feeling to have when you drive an F one car. Did you surprise yourself that weekend? Hundred percent. But I think

w rather than me surprising myself, the human body surprised me. Like how the human body can go from within Six days from not moving to actually driving a Formula One car and how you recover. But the human body truly amazed me that week and I said, yeah, this is an interesting case because I went through... everything to suddenly actually perform at a high level on on on that Sunday.

I wonder if you found an inner confidence that weekend. Hear me out, because I felt Melbourne summed up 2024 for you. It was the moment that you became this unstoppable force because No amount of adversity was gonna stop you that weekend. Fast forward two races China, you have a crash in Q two, quite a big one, but you get back out in Q three and qualify within a hundredth of your teammate Charles Claire. I dunno, there was there's just this inner

confidence it I feel that has shone through ever since. Do you see that or am I just It's a... No, I think it's a good point. I think for sure life tests you. And I think at the beginning of the year of 2024, I was tested more than I've ever been tested before. And life put me in a situation that was not comfortable at all. Um I was told in I think it was the end of January, beginning of February that I was not gonna continue with a team that I was

ninety nine percent sure I was gonna continue going into that winter. It was a massive shock to my to my hopes and to my whole system and I obviously didn't enjoy that that moment. I still trained and I still prepared for that season, uh targeting obviously to be ready to win races, to win a championship if the if the opportunity presented itself and I went into that year still full of energy but obviously with this uncomfortable situation and an uncomfortable moment, no?

I still did that podium in Bahrain, and I said, okay, now I get the season going. I had a really good first race, and sometimes I remember struggling a bit in Bahrain, and this year I did a really good Bahrain, and I said, I think I'm quite strong this year. and i can get this this season going then you arrive to Saudi and you have the appendictomy or whatever you call it

And that was a massive blow because now I'm going to miss a race. Am I going to even miss two races? Am I going to come back to the form I was in Bahrain? Is it going to take me time? You go through this full process of doubt.

of self doubt and then you go back to Australia and you win. And then you have this crash in China and you recover. All things that help build a lot my confidence and prove to me that when you have a target in your head and you are a hundred percent committed to proving to yourself more than anyone what you're worth. Jackie Stewart has always said that a driver is at his peak At the age of 30, you are 30. Do you feel at the peak of your powers?

I don't know. I think there's something around the age of thirty for sure that you achieve a level of maturity, speed and experience that for sure is at a good level. I think some drivers will achieve it at twenty six, others at thirty two. But if you wanna do an average, thirty sounds like a good number. I think anyway that average, no disrespect to Sir Jackie of course, but keeps lowering every year,¿no? Because we see younger and younger, younger

drivers being more prepared earlier, which means you're peaking earlier, no? But I think also that peak can last longer because the way we are prepared nowadays, the way the world has developed, I think. You can keep a very high level in an F1 career for quite long. This episode is sponsored by Honda. Since its first Formula One victory in the 1965 Mexico Grand Prix, Honda has always taken what's learned on the track and used it to build better cars for everyone.

From pushing limits in F1 to engineering the next generation of hybrids like the Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid, Honda proves that racing doesn't just inspire innovation, it drives it. And that idea of taking lessons from the racetrack and applying them to road cars has always been a part of Honda's DNA.

Decades of engineering in the demanding world of Formula One have helped shape the performance and efficiency you see in Honda's road cars today. And now that same thinking is shaping the next generation of hybrids as well. Cars like the 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Hybrid show that electrification can be both efficient and genuinely fun to drive.

The 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid are engineered for fun. From the racetrack to your driveway. Learn more about the Prelude and Civic and the latest innovations at Honda.com. This episode is sponsored by Honda. Since its first Formula One victory in the 1965 Mexico Grand Prix, Honda has always taken what's learned on the track and used it to build better cars for everyone.

From pushing limits in F1 to engineering the next generation of hybrids like the Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid, Honda proves that racing doesn't just inspire innovation, it drives it. And that idea of taking lessons from the racetrack and applying them to road cars has always been a part of Honda's DNS.

Decades of engineering in the demanding world of Formula One have helped shape the performance and efficiency you see in Honda's road cars today. And now that same thinking is shaping the next generation of hybrids as well. Cars like the 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Hybrid show that electrification can be both efficient and genuinely fun to drive.

The 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid are engineered for fun, from the racetrack to your driveway. Learn more about the Prelude and Civic and the latest innovations at Honda.com. He lost an appendix at the last Grand Prix. What a performance! What a comeback! A Ferrari 1-2 Headed by Carlos Sainz who wins the Australian Grand Prix. This is amazing. I don't like it rollercoaster.

You talked a moment ago about the news that Lewis Hamilton was gonna replace you at Ferrari. Can we talk about the emotional roller coaster that you've been on since that news broke at the beginning of January? Yeah, I think I said it on the radio in Australia, no? This life is such a roller coaster. I remember being very emotional on that Australia

Grand Prix Podium because there was my dad there, there was obviously my manager, my girlfriend, everyone who's been next to me, I was obviously thinking about my mom and they've all seen me suffer during the winter. And when I say suffer, I don't mean I was crying behind closed doors, but I was actually

Hurt. I was hurt because I didn't expect it. I wasn't prepared for that kind of news. And yeah, I was a bit in a shock for a while. And then I regroup and got training again. But yeah, I remember after that win.

um in Australia thinking about how lucky I am to have the people that I have around me supporting me and giving me that inner strength you know to overcome what it was at the time a tough moment that now when I look back at it I'm almost like happy proud that it happened because it made me a much better driver and a much better athlete in general. You talk about the shock of that news. Was there ever anger?

Uh, for sure. And I could sit here and say, No, no, I wasn't angry with with anyone, but at the time when they give you this news you you're angry. You you don't understand it, you Kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät, kysyvät. start to accept certain things and you try to see everything with a lot more of a relative mind, no? And

and you start to comprehend and to just adapt and forgive and forget, you know, and and get on with life. Just get on with it. I remember keep I kept telling myself, nah, just get on with it and and just do your thing and um yeah, it is Forgive, forget.

Do you now understand as well? Hundred percent. Um and I think understand I understood it almost right from the beginning. I think if it would have been someone else I would have taken a lot more longer to understand. But when you understand Lewis Hamilton, the seven-time world champion and one of the best, if not the best in history, is going to replace you at Ferrari. And Lewis has decided to do his last part of his career in Ferrari.

You need to be one of the two driver's sacrifice for that to happen. I understand. I also understand it was never gonna be Charles. Charles has been the project of Ferrari ever since he's been a junior driver. He's been the center of of the project for many years. I arrived to Ferrari more as a substitute of Beto, almost not by chance, but obviously earning my place, but circumstantial rather than Charles that has been there forever.

I understood. I had to be in in a way the the one being replaced and I understood it from the beginning. I just obviously didn't agree so much at the time, but hey, you end up agreeing and you end up getting on with it. Are you leaving on good terms? Yeah, a hundred percent. Even with Fred, with uh John Elkan, with with everyone in involved obviously in that decision. Obviously I called them. They called me, I express my feelings a about it. But did you tell them what you really thought?

Yeah, of course. In that things I've never backed off, you know, I've always said this is what I think the same way that I told them I understood it then I explained uh obviously my my feelings.

I'm not gonna tell you here what I said. Uh uh probably that's something I I'm never gonna say, but uh I told them what I thought and moved on and promised them that I was going to give my absolute best for Ferrari even though all this has happened in the last year and I was going to keep proving to them that I'm still a big asset for Ferrari. That's what I've been focusing on doing ever since.

Gerhard Berger, Le Ferrari, went back. Kimmy Reichenen, Le Ferrari, went back. Could you see a time that Carlos Sainz goes back? Yeah, why not? I don't see why not at the same time. I cannot see it happening anytime soon for the moment. But yeah, life is long. I'm 30, as you say. You see drivers at 42 in Formula One. I'm in Formula One for as long as that. Who tells you that in these next 10 years?

Ferrari might need my services again in the future. This doesn't mean I wish for it to happen or I'm looking forward to it or anything like that. I have a a very big target in my head now which is uh help Williams uh to to bring them back to the to the front of the field but I yeah, I don't think about it too much.

We'll come to Williams in a minute, but Abu Dhabi is gonna be your eighty eighth race for Ferrari. Can you just give us some words on how you feel these four years have gone? I think it's been four years where if you would have told me four years ago I would be leaving Ferrari, achieving my first win uh the way those winds came. twenty something podiums, I think I would have taken it. I said before arriving to Ferrari that my target was to become world champion.

We still have a a target that we might achieve it, which is the constructors' championship. That would be a huge thing before I leave. so I cannot be 100% happy with the way things have gone because in those four years I would have loved to to fight for a world championship, become world champion. But hey, look, I'm living with my first wins in Formula One, my first twenty something podiums and

I cannot complain. I've been a Ferrari driver for four years. I've enjoyed every single moment of it. I've always feel loved by the T4C. enjoyed every single moment in Maranello, in Fiorano, traveling the world with wearing my Ferrari polo, you know, and I have no regrets and feel quite proud about How different is the Ferrari experience to that of any other team?

It's a very special experience. It's something that even if I sit here and I try to explain it to you, I don't think I can. I'm not very good at explaining myself or explaining my feelings and but um I can tell you is something very different to ever anything that I felt before.

and i've enjoyed every single moment of it sometimes it's tough there's things about being a ferrari driver that is also tough and i'm not gonna lie it's not everything is roses and and perfect I'm struggling to see what's bad about being a Ferrari drug. I'm going to focus on the positives, which is Every Grand Prix a kind of a home Grand Prix. everywhere you go there is the Fosy fans and you have the most supporters out of any other placing or other any other team.

Except maybe when we go to to Sambor, there's definitely uh more Dutch fans there than Ferrari fans. But I think anywhere else in the world it is very specific, knowing that everyone in the Gram San is kind of a Ferrari fan and wishes well for Ferrari, no? Um on the tough side mm we can sit here and obviously do a different podcast one time and I can maybe explain to you what I what is tough about being a Ferrari driver but I don't want this interview to be that.

Okay, let's celebrate the wins. Which has been the best one? It's very tough to choose. And I'm gonna explain you why. Silverstone is your first one. The first one is the first one. It's incredibly special and and something that you will never forget. Singapore, you can understand why Singapore was special the first Bye-bye. Okay, perfect.

We've just talked about Australia. I can tell you why Australia was special and why it was emotional. Um because of everything that happened in January, the way I recovered from appendicitis and culminating with a win. But then you have Mexico. He said pole yesterday was bittersweet because it gave him the feeling that Ferrari might be in a fight for a world championship and he won't be there to use it. That realization ignited a fire today. Carlos Sainz wins the Mexico City Grand Prix.

A fine way to take a Career victory. Uh that this feels good. Gracias México. And Mexico might be my last win for Ferrari. And the way I achieved it by putting myself under pressure that we can knowing that might be my last opportunity. And I told myself this is gonna be or this might be your one of your last opportunities. I'm putting myself under pressure that we can and managing to execute

Perfect quality, perfect grace in front of my parents that came to see me that weekend. In front of my best friends, girlfriend and people that came to see me. I've felt really proud of saying I managed to put myself under this amount of pressure and still deliver and get it done. And overtake Max Verstappen. Yeah, yeah, the overtake for sure was was cool, but it was more the way I executed the whole weekend putting myself under that self pressure of this might be your last

Another big moment for you, at least from the outside, seemed to be Monza twenty three. You didn't win that one, but you did keep Max in a faster car behind you for I think fourteen laps. Yeah, it was um I I actually feel almost more more happy about the pole position on Saturday than by keeping Max behind. I think the pole position in Monts as a Ferrari driver is something very special.

also because I love Monza as a track and I love I've always been quick there. Um keeping Max behind, knowing he was anyway gonna pass me because Red Bull that year were unstoppable. Wait they were not. I beat them in Singapore. I'm joking. What happens when you take poll at Monsieur? I mean obviously you don't pay for dinner that night and probably many Offers of marriage as well. I don't know, just does your life go completely mad when you do something like that?

I've always dreamed about that moment, and obviously I cannot imagine how Charles feels about winning in Monza, because if I felt good being on the podium in Monza and making that pole position, winning must be. something else. But I don't know. It was just a cool weekend. I remember people mm shouting my name in the podium. It's something I'm never gonna forget. It's the typical story that when I'm

seventy years old in and I have grandsons. I'll it's the typical weekend thing that I'll remember all my life and I'll be Telling them about your granddaddy that you know and I I think so. But that's something really cool, you know. That's the kind of thing I think we all As a driver, that's the kind of thing you remember, no those special weekends, those different things that you've managed.

Look, you mentioned Charles' name there. I did want to ask you about the relationship with him. You seem to have rubbed along pretty well. It's not quite Carlando, though, would you agree? I think it's different. I think Carlando never fought for wins and never fought for podiums and Carlando was not in a Ferrari atmosphere. It was in a McLaren atmosphere which is relatively different.

With Charles I can tell you outside of the track we get on genuinely really well and we have a lot of fun, really good conversations. We talked about I think a any subject you can ever imagine by by now with all the time we spend away from the track together. On track, we've had our differences, we've had our rivalries, we've had uh our great weekends, our tougher weekends.

we've always managed to keep it clean between us and we've always managed to keep the car mm without any scratch from the other Ferrari car, you know, and for two drivers that for four years in a row every single weekend

have shared the same piece of tarmac because we've always qualified within a tenth of each other. We've always done every start within a position or two from each other. We every pit stop, every single lap close to each other for four years in a row to manage to keep it as clean as we've kept it and as relatively easygoing as we've kept it. there's a merit to that because it's not easy. We're both very competitive, we are both rivals and

four years. It's a lot of races. I'm calculating more or less almost a hundred races sharing the same piece of tarmac and it's not easy. Um I don't think as many drivers have gone for so long so close to each other without any issues. It seems very intense between you. Just think back to the sprint race in China. I'm thinking of Austin. I'm even thinking of Las Vegas last weekend actually. I mean, have you guys moved on from that one? Okay.

Yes, and we will and we will move on. We we always have and we will always put our differences aside for the benefit of Ferrari and because there's something bigger than i each other that is Ferrari. You know, it's it's always been tough. Uh I know I've uh sometimes done things wrong and I've apologized. He knows he's sometimes done things wrong and he's apologized. We always find kind of a middle ground to move on.

bigger than what it looks then when we go back and we sit down with each other and we let's say digest together what ha what has happened because The radio is very intense. The radio is something that from home and for the media is very sassy. You get all the intensity of the driving of the.

sorry for the word how pissed off we are at the time and how angry we are but then once that level of adrenaline comes down and when we are behind closed doors things are a lot less heated than what you guys can imagine and we manage to to put things aside and m and move on. Do you understand why Shaul was so upset after Vegas? I'm thinking of his radio message on the slowdown line.

I understand the level of anger. Uh I've been as angry as that many, many times before, and I can assure you I've also been in that position. I just try not to vocalize it as much in the radio and it's something that we've both really put it as a target to say, look, I know many times you just hate me, you know, and many times I just and we laugh about it.

There's times that I you hate me, there's times that I hate you, but we need to move on from that. And and let's try and not use the radio. I think obviously Charles in in that sense in in Las Vegas uh couldn't control himself so so much, but uh at the same time I understand it. I am able to also move on from that. I I'm not gonna complain. I'm gonna

look back at the four years with Charles and I'm gonna have a good memory. And I'm gonna look back and I'm gonna say he was a tough competitor sometimes very vocal in the radio, but very tough competitor that I enjoyed every single battle with him and I enjoyed being his teammate and I'm I'm incredibly uh happy to have shared those four years with him because I've become a better driver thanks to him. He's become probably a better driver thanks to me.

Yeah, we had a lot of fun together and we had tough, fierce competition but always clean and always within the limits that a team would like to have.

Last question on Ferrari and it's a bit of a segue into Williams as well. Something James Vales, Team Principal of Williams, told me is that You have improved every team you've raced for in Formula One. How do you think you've helped improve Ferrari? Yeah, I think that is obviously a a very nice comment from James and I appreciate that

team principals are able to see also a bit further down just the pure results, no? And they can all also spot trends and spot these kind of details, you know, because It's something that I enjoy. It's something that I put a lot of effort into in my career, which is always Try and help the team to become better and to be a better team and become faster, not only just

serve as a tool for the team to just drive fast the car that they produce. I also like developing that car. I also like spending extra time with my engineers and with the engineers in general of the team, extra time with mem the mechanics and that's why when I went to Ferrari I moved to Maranello because I set myself as a target

I'm gonna help Ferrari, the biggest thing in the world, to try and become world champions again. And I with my skill set and with my feedback and with my tools I'm gonna try and be the one that helps Ferrari to come back to the top. it's something I enjoy. I intrinsically get in self m involved in all these conversations because I enjoy it. And I yeah, try to do the best I can to give the the best possible feedback and the best possible directions.

Are we talking operationally, are we talking technically, or is it across every every aspect of performance? I think it's every aspect. I think there's things that a driver can have more effect than others. Obviously performance with setup work and understanding of the setup and the feeling of testing things. to then tell the team this works, this doesn't work, this we should push more in this direction, this is definitely not the right direction.

uh things like that, operationally also a bit less because I am not a team principle, I'm not someone that can manage a team. I I don't have the skill set, at least not yet at this age. But I can say operationally how mm doesn't matter if it's uh strategy, pit stops or whatever, I can give some advice or h give an opinion of of of how I think or how I feel we're doing things, no? And that's where I obviously

don't get too much into it because I don't wanna be too much in in a way and I obviously I'm not a manager, as I said, I'm just a racing driver. But that's also something that I enjoy and that's something that I will will always give feedback. Keeping things calm on the pit wall, do you feel you've had an influence on that? I don't know. I think Ferrari honestly in that sense and also Fred have done a very good job at improving that side of things and I think this year proved

also how much that department strategy group and and race management has improved. Um, don't get me wrong, a better race the car also helps. But uh I think uh in that sense Ferrari has done massive step forwards uh recently.

Vegas was not our best example about it for sure, but everyone can have a an off day in uh uh or we all had an off day in Vegas. But uh if you get the average of the twenty twenty four season, the progress that Ferrari has shown in that sense is huge and and I think it's just down to everyone involved in in this theme.

This episode is sponsored by Honda. Since its first Formula One victory in the 1965 Mexico Grand Prix, Honda has always taken what's learned on the track and used it to build better cars for everyone. From pushing limits in F1 to engineering the next generation of hybrids like the Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid, Honda proves that racing doesn't just inspire innovation, it drives it.

And that idea of taking lessons from the racetrack and applying them to road cars has always been a part of Honda's DNS. Decades of engineering in the demanding world of Formula One have helped shape the performance and efficiency you see in Honda's road cars today. And now that same thinking is shaping the next generation of hybrids as well. Cars like the 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Hybrid show that electrification can be both efficient and genuinely fun to drive.

The 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid are engineered for fun, from the racetrack to your driveway. Learn more about the Prelude and Civic and the latest innovations at Honda.com.

Right, let's throw it forward now. Is everything after Ferrari gonna feel a bit of a step down? No, a hundred percent no. I still be a Formula One driver, enjoying my life. Uh there will be positives, there will be other negatives, but you need to remember that what I enjoy is putting on a helmet and driving a Formula One car.

doesn't matter the color. I just enjoy driving. I enjoy the competition. I enjoy challenging myself and especially more than anything, I enjoy living a weekend thinking there is And you can get that same sense of satisfaction battling for P I mean, Alex Alburn didn't get out of Q one in Vegas. Do you think you can get that same sense of satisfaction back there? That you do at the front?

I think inside of yourself yes, then for sure I'll miss the podiums, I'll miss the celebrations, I'll I'll miss being on a headline because I've won or because I've been on a poll p or because whatever. But my target is to get back to there. I'm not going to Williams just to extract the maximum out of the car. I'm going to Williams to try and bring Williams back to the possibility of fighting for those podiums and

I am a driver that I think is gonna enjoy that process because I enjoy trying to help, trying to get involved in in just making uh uh everything work better, no? And so I'm just looking forward to it. More a lot more than what people back at home might be thinking. Like I am so happy and so motivated about that possibility and about that possibility happen that I don't think people can imagine how actually excited I am about

Tell us about the decision making process because throughout the summer you were the most wanted man who was available on the grid. Alpine wanted you. Lots of people actually wanted you. Why Williams?

I remember having a very tough time, let's say, during those months, because I had to decide about my future and it was not easy. Yeah I had as you said plenty of options, plenty of possibilities trying to find out who was gonna be the fastest team in twenty five and twenty six and who was gonna deliver more downforce, deliver more power for the twenty sixth generation of cars, and I was trying to do all my

questions about to every team and to every um technical director, team principal asking those questions. And then suddenly, just before the summer break, I realized this is not gonna be what makes or breaks my my decision making. I think what's gonna bre make or break my decision making is is the people. Is the people in the team. And I remember thinking in JV, James Vowles and his team have shown me

an incredible level of commitment towards me and they've showed me a project and a a vision of the future that has convinced me and I'm gonna trust the people. I'm gonna trust the people that I'm joining rather than the downforce, the the things that I've said before, no and I'm gonna follow that instinct. And my inst instinct at the time told me J V and his team have produced a project that I was really excited about and I was just gonna trust that instinct.

because I remember leaving McLaren in twenty twenty, feeling these people, Andrea Stella, Zack Brown and company, these people are world champion material. Like I felt McLaren was one day gonna be world champion. back again with those key members. Then suddenly I realized 2024 McLaren is the fastest team on the grid for a few races, so my instinct was right when I left McLaren.

Did you get the heads up about Hamilton? Because James has told us on this podcast that your first meeting with him was Abu Dhabi last year. That was before Lewis had pulled the trigger and announced that he was leaving, was going to Ferrari, sorry. I'm going to be extremely honest with you. When I talk to JV in Abu Dhabi when my management team... Says, James, thanks for your interest, but ninety percent that we're gonna renew our contract with Ferrari, but we will let you know what happens in

uh during these next months. That was my answer. And thanks for your interest. Great. But at the moment it looks like we're just gonna at least that's what we're receiving feedback from Ferrari, that it's almost a done deal. How long do you give Williams because James Vales has also said that the facilities in Grove are twenty years behind those at Mercedes? Yeah. That's not a quick thing.

and almost I d I wouldn't say I don't care but I've seen m what they've shown me and I'm a hundred percent convinced James and his team are doing every necessary work. they have everything in plan to get it to work. How long do I keep them? I don't know how long do they give me to to help them. I don't know. It's it's a relative question again. I I'm only worried about the more immediate future and how much progress we're gonna make during twenty five.

and during twenty six. This is what I what I care mostly about and to see the trend and the tendency because that's the the momentum that we need to to start building from next year on I get the potential at Williams, but do you think you committed too soon? In that with Chequer Perez's troubles at Red Bull, there might be an option there now if you were still available. Was there ever an option for a one a one year deal at Mercedes?

I think if if anything a lot of people in the paddock will think I took too long. Especially a lot of my fellow drivers thought I I was taking too long to decide. No uh no. I don't think I fit into the Red Bull situation. They had me available for 6 months and they didn't pick me. But at that time Checo was still doing a decent job. He was finishing on the podium in the early races of the year.

No, it was a lot later. It was until the summer break and Red Bull had me available for six months and they didn't pick me. And I think it's because I simply don't fit into the type of driver that they need right now in Red Bull. I'm completely fine with that. Like that's if anything, they're making me a favor so

I don't see myself as a lost opportunity to not wait until December. That's not how the Formula One market works. If I would have done that, I might have even been... without a Formula 1 contract for 25 if I keep Alpine, Williams or Audi waiting until this late.

I also have uh obviously an ego and I'm gonna go with the people that they really want me. And James, I cannot uh explain to you how much I felt wanted and how much I felt push to join them and they did an incredible job also in convincing me because yeah it is a project that as I said before I just look forward to it. James has actually described trying to sign you as a courtship. It's gonna be the first move.

Yeah, maybe he went a bit too far with that with that comment, but um no. He he just did a good job in that sense. So the m the investment group, Laurelton, that I um and the people that I've met from the group gave me an a great level of of trust, you know. And As I said, if the other few other top teams that were available at the time, I would have fit the project that they were thinking they would have. They had six months to decide and they didn't.

Wells do you like the fact that Williams are a bunch of racers with a capital O? Even James does a bit of racing himself. James Matthews, who's one of the board members there. Did a lot of racing in in the UK before he went on to do other things. D does that appeal to you that it's a it's a proper racing team? Hundred percent. This was also part of all the mix of things that helped me took that decision. Let's see the last time that I was in a team of the first time.

pure racist, that was I think uh not disrespectful to Ferraris, also a team of races, but McLaren had a bit that similar vibe, if you wanna Oh with that. i with Zach and and and Andrea Stella saddle at the time and had that similar kind of vibe and I think I thrived, no, in that kind of environment in McLaren. So I saw myself going to Williams thinking it's an environment where I think I can show the best version of myself that this is my my target for the future.

And what about Alex Albon? Do you rate him as a racing driver? I don't only rate him as a racing driver, as a really good racing driver, but also as a great mm human. I think if you ask The other nineteen drivers in the grid, who do you think is one of the genuine good guys in the grid? I think they would all say Alex. I've never been teammates with Alex, I've never seen his data, but I've always asked Lando, Charles or George that are.

um have race with Alex and they all say people don't know how fast Alex is. Like everyone is like telling me he's genuinely a really, really good super talented and super fast. They've always against him and me. I think only one year of karting, but I don't remember much. And um yeah, I think I'm it's a good um cocktail of things, no. Just a good human being and a and a great racing driver that I'm looking forward to work with and

just work together. I think what Williams needs right now is two guys like Alex and me pushing flat out. to make that process and make that journey as short as possible to bring Williams back to where they deserved. James thinks he's got the best driver line up on the grid next year. I think it's A great statement by James. I wouldn't obviously disrespect Charles and Luis as teammates. But yeah, apart from them, I think Williams as a... Obviously I'm biased, but a a very strong lineup.

Well Carlos, it's been wonderful to chat. I did just want to end this going back to Ferrari because We've got a guest who's going to join us now. Um I wonder if Ricardo could count. Oh my god. Okay. Ricardo Adami. Tricky Ricky. And P1, baby, P1. C'est beau, c'est beau, c'est beau, c'est beau, c'est beau, c'est beau, c'est beau Okay, this is my first Yeah. Субтитры сделал DimaTorzok This is a surprise.

So we have special guests joining us now, Ricardo Adami, race engineer, done all the races with you, Carlos, hasn't he? How would you describe your relationship with each other? Ricky is um

is exactly the the guy that I needed when I arrived to Ferrari. A guy that um knew the team inside out. He had been many years in Ferrari at the time and I remember going into such a big organization such a big world without knowing anything about the insights of the team and Ricky did a very good job at introducing me to the key people, introducing me to all the Maranello um fabric and all the mechanics he has a great relationship with and obviously he helped me also with

he knew very well the car, he knew very well Sebastian, the setups of the car, the driving styles of uh Sebastian against Charles and we just started forming a very strong relationship that helped me adapt to Ferrari I think the quickest that I could have adapted Well how quickly did it happen? That that gelling process. Yeah, was uh was uh since day one I think was uh we were on the same uh wavelength.

So I'm thinking the same way, having similar experience in a way, because from Toro Rosso days, I knew many engineers that worked with him, so I had some advices how he was and how to tackle our project together. And yeah, it was uh as I say since the beginning, very good uh relationship. We were on the on the same page on uh developing the car and uh working together he has a very strong uh attitude to uh workload so uh very high s workload together on the simulator and developing the car.

and understanding each other since the beginning. And yeah, the results are there to see after four years we are fighting for the championship together, so developing the careers work quite nicely.

Ricky, what what's his greatest strength? As I said, he's a very hard worker. Level of details that we're looking together and developing the car and the setup, I would say that's his strength. And what I've noticed is the cause and action. So he's able to understand technical stuff and then applying, driving, that is not easy. It's easy to say, but then to do it is another thing. What do you think has been his greatest performance for Ferrari so far? Mexico, outstanding, yeah, Mexico.

More than Singapore. Singapore was more of a fox driving, no? A smarter. I get it. Understanding and playing, but as I said, Mexico was fair and square and dominating, as I told him, after the race that weekend since FP1, basically. Are you gonna miss this guy? نعم بالتأكيد نعم بالتأكيد نعم بالتأكيد Ricky? 100% I think we've built a lot of good memories. My first wins have not only come with Ferrari but have come with Ricci.

with uh Callum, with my mechanics, with Cortez and um the other engineers of of my group let's say and it is something that I'm people that obviously I'm gonna keep for the rest of my life really good memories, no? And um I would be very happy and very open to to work with them in the future because they've been a a great part of the success that we've had together in Ferrari.

Ricky, you worked with Sebastian. Well, lots of great drivers. Yeah. Sebastian Vettel is is one that springs to mind. Do you see similarities between Carlos and Sebastian? Yes, indeed. Uh they are quite similar in terms of uh yeah, simulator working with a simulator, developing uh as I say, the car. the understanding of the car behavior and the sensitivity to staff so he's quite sensitive on changes of the car.

At times, you know, we change stuff blind as it is able to recognize what has been changed in the car. It is quite impressive. That came to my mind very similar to Sebastian. We started this podcast talking about Melbourne and the job that well Carlos had to do during the build up but also during the weekend, softening the brake pedal, things like that. Just uh can I get your memories of that weekend as well?

Yeah, it was quite intense because from Wednesday it was for the seatbelts that didn't arrive from home, we were a bit upset and say, wow, we do it, you know. And then it was... quite shocking the very first lap you did in FP1 I was looking Very far off. I was looking at the other engineers and I was saying, are we really sure we want to do it? You know, because I had just this. It was warming up already.

After my first lap olive was already warming up like I'm definitely driving. I was like five seconds old, you know. not even pushing because as i said i couldn't be i didn't trust that i could push no but very quickly i got within a decent margin no and i we started working on the brake pedal and things to to make me feel a bit more comfortable Well Ricky, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.

Great to have Ricky join us. One of the things you said there, oh I would like to work with him in the future, did you ever think about taking him trying to take him with you to Williams?

Um of course there's this kind of things come to your head, uh but at the same time you also need to be realistic and as much as working relationships are important The personal ones are also fundamental and I know obviously his family is in Italy, his kids, they live 10 minutes away from Marnello and I also realize.

There's things that uh sometimes you wish that could happen but also there's other things that realistically you know they're probably never gonna happen. So you never even will always be a a a Ferrari guy and he deserves, you know, to be there, keep being successful there like he's been and he's also very loved and very respected by by everyone.

Well Carlos, it's been great to catch up after a couple of years. If we can just end this in what I call the traditional way, our quick fire questions. What else are you good at? I would say in general just sports. I'm at a decent level at every... So golf would be the main one? Yeah. You played the old course at St. Andrews in the summer didn't you? Yeah. Well, yeah. His course record I think is sixty one.

I'm not talking about course records, obviously I'm not a pro on anything like that. But the other day I I shoot my first round on the par, uh one under in a tournament. Back in Spain, I'm still at 500 cup, but it's coming down. And tennis is another sport, squash. With a ragged squash player. Mi padre fue el campeón.

But everything with a rocket I can play fairly well. Mountain skiing, wakeboarding, uh I dunno, football, I I can play this and if you tell me a sport and you say I challenge you you might beat me the first time, but maybe in two months I come back and I'm so upset about having lost that I will get to a good level. Right, I'm thinking paddle now. Are you part of the paddle gang in the paddle? I can play pile.

Right, you've laid down a marker now. Um look, next one. Which racing person, dead or alive, would you want to be stuck in a lift with? That's a difficult one. I think just share a good conversation with Senna. I would love to. What would you ask him? so many things. I honestly I don't know where I would start. I would I just know I would be very annoying asking a lot of questions. Who would play you in a film? who looks like me. Well, it doesn't really matter, no.

I like as an as actors, I really like Will Smith. Mm, I like if it has to be an action movie, maybe Tom Cruise could be cool. Who is the coolest person in your contact? I don't know, I'm lucky to have my contacts, people like Natal.

Rafa Nadal's pretty good. Tadeipo Gachar. That's the best ever at something, you know. For me is cool. And for me Rafa is the best or one of the best ever at tennis. Tadeipo Gachar is gonna be the best ever in cycling. Um probably there's also People from some other sport that are the best And do they inspire you when you're doing those sports?

Not when I'm doing them, because I'm so far from them. I don't think about their level when I play that sport. What I think is what they managed to achieve in sport in general and the mentality they have. I know how tough it is to win, but the way that these people manage to dominate and win so much in their sport is truly impressive.

Especially the I like people with the way they go about winning. It's for me it's not only about winning, it's the way they go about it and being an example to the younger generation. And for me these two that I just mentioned is the perfect example for the younger generation of how to approach competition, how to approach life as an athlete. And yeah, they're just uh truly great examples. Final one, if you hosted a podcast like this, who would be your first guest?

i think this too could be a good start and then i would try and get tiger woods in the podcast I would try and get Ilya Tupuria, the UFC fighter, uh Spanish. I've become a big fan of him recently. Just the greatest, if I could just get the contact of the greatest at things you know. I'd listen to all the things. Challenging them with tricky questions like you do, you know. Is there a Formula One person you bring on?

Yeah, for sure. I would like to bring fellow racing drivers and try and open them up and have the kind of conversation that I can have with Charles Orlando about racing and see I think it was this would be very cool. Okay, so you achieved that with Charles and Lando, but is there another driver that you would be intrigued to Yeah.

And I would say, remember this time, what did you think when I did this? Or when did you think that with the others, yeah, with my teammates, I ex teammates, I would manage to get more I think we'll leave it there. Carlos, what a great chat. Thank you very much for your time. Cheers. Thank you very much.

Now there's an idea. I can see Carlos hosting a show called The Greatest and getting the likes of Nadal, Woods, Tom Cruise, and the rest on for a great chat. I would definitely tune into that. Now I really hope you enjoyed hearing from Carlos as much as I did. He was incredibly candid, wasn't he? And he seems at peace with his move to Williams. Initially it'll be a different experience compared to Ferrari, but he seems more than up for the challenge.

Thanks for your time, Carlos, and thanks too to Ricardo Adami for joining us. The bond between Carlos and Ricky is clear, and it's sad to see them go their separate ways at the end of the year. Now as ever, please let me know what you think of this episode. I love reading your messages, so please send what you think through all the usual means. I'm at TomClarksonF1 or you can use the hashtag F1BeyONTHreen. Which brings me on to what you sent in about last week's show with Andy Stevenson.

Who celebrated his 600th Grand Prix in Las Vegas? I was taken aback by the number of messages we were sent, and I thought this from Paul Hicklin summed up what a lot of you thought. I've listened to every episode of F1 Beyond the Grid, and I can't think of a better one than this, says Paul. Andy has some great stories from his 600 races in Formula One, and the one where Frenson raced at Manicor with a broken leg was fantastic.

Andy's passion, enthusiasm, and energy for F1 is unrivalled. Well, thanks for that note, Paul. It was great to hear from you. And a large number of people from inside the F1 paddock have told me how much they enjoyed listening to Andy as well. It definitely hit a chord. Well that's almost it for this week. A couple of parish notices before I go.

F1 Nation's review of the Qatar Grand Prix is out now. I'm joined by Alex Jakes and Pietro Fittipaldi to reflect on Max Verstappen's surprising victory in Lucille and the battle between McLaren and Ferrari to become world champions. And the latest episode of F1 Explains features McLaren Reserve Driver Pato Award, who's answering your questions. Both of those shows are on your podcast app now.

So thank you very much for listening and I will of course be back next week with a special guest or two from the world of Formula One. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and Audio Boom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.