Exit Point #26 - Jamie Crawford

Hello, friends. We're back with another episode of Exit Point, the podcast that features conversations with some of the world's most extreme adventure sports athletes. If you've been enjoying the podcast and would like to help support our efforts, please consider subscribing on your favorite platform and leaving us a review. And if you feel like you've been getting a lot of value from the show, you may be interested in helping us keep the lights on here at Exit Point hq.

You can do this by buying us the coffee. There's a link in the description. A huge thank you to everyone who's reached out with your emails and contributions. Your support and communication is what makes this project thrive. In this episode, Matt and I speak with Jamie Crawford. Jamie is an expert in urban base jumping who has been honing his skills with patience, dedication, and intention for over a decade.

I've been so focused on Wingsuit Base for all these years, I love the fresh perspective he brings with his hardcore urban style. He has generously agreed to shed some light on what has historically been a shadowy, dark art. Jamie is always full of good stories, so this should be a good one. So with that, let's get Jamie on the track.

I want to hear a little bit more before we start about, uh, you doing a ceremony with your mom because Ellen just asked me, Oh, yeah, I just saw that he posted something about doing a ceremony with his mom. That sounds so intense.

It was I mean, she, you know, she's always been kind of a big fan of mine in the sense that when I was younger, I was just an angry teenager rebelling against the world and I didn't know why yet, but I knew something wasn't right, you know, and then that was my first introduction to psychedelics. So mushrooms, you know, which really kind of changed my, my whole life from that. That point on my mom noticed that, you know, my mom and I were always been close.

So she was like, Oh, you're not an angry teenager anymore. Like what, what changed? And so I, you know, I was honest with her all the time and told her about, yeah, I had this experience on mushrooms, whatever. And, you know, kind of, she's followed that path for me for, for my life. And so when she, when I got into Iowasco seven years ago. I went to Peru, um, you know, obviously she saw the, the, the changes within me, uh, through that process.

And so she finally was like, look, I want to try this stuff, you know, and you know, I'm all seventies, like, it's pretty like laborious work. You're not, you know, you're, you're, you're super high on really, really powerful psychedelic. And, um, you know, you're laying there for a lot, you're really nauseous. People are puking all around you, you know, it's, it's a kind of a, you know, trial by fire for the first experience. Um, so.

You know, what's interesting was I feel like you do so much work on your genetics when you're on ayahuasca. It's kind of like the best way I can explain it after doing, I think I've done maybe 25, 27 nights of it now. So far since the seven years. Um, uh, is it's like, it's like a psychic surgery. It's a spiritual surgery. You're, you're actually doing real energetic work within your framework. A lot of it's within your DNA, within your heritage, the things you don't think about.

And so to have my mom there, you know, which is, Yeah. Part of my lineage, you know, I came out of her vagina, like, you know, so have her like next to me and like, like feeling how much actual, uh, it, it perpetuated it, it magnified the effects by having her, you know, with me during ceremony. So I could feel it. Cause when you're in ceremony in ayahuasca, you're, you know, you're working in a, in, you're not working in a three dimensional reality. You're, you're. Absolutely working.

I, I think in multiple dimensions at once, it's a, it's a, it's time isn't linear anymore when you're, when you're on the medicine, you're going back and forward, um, all at once. It's all present in the now. And so you have this ability to really kind of see everything in your life, like a, like a hologram. Like instead of like a line of like progression, you see everything in this interconnected web and how they're all framed together.

And so I could see like, you know, my mom and her, her work and what she had and, You know how that passed down to me and, but also like how, you know, if I do work, it affects her and if she does work, it affects me. It doesn't go, you know, necessarily in a certain time order when you're working on the, on the medicine. So, you know, it was kind of hard to, I had to, obviously I was concerned.

I had to make sure she was okay and it wasn't like, you know, freaking out or, you know, so I was always kind of, while I was on my own progress and working on myself, I was always kind of had a chunk of my attention to her, you know, to make sure she was good. And I had to help her to the. To, you know, cause you walk up and you have, um, the, the, the shaman sings plant medicine like songs, Icarus, I do the Shipibo tradition.

Um, so they sing a specific plant vibration to you, you know, which is part of your healing process when you go to do the medicine and I had to like help her up because she was so high. She never gets high. She doesn't do any of this kind of stuff, you know, so she was outside of her comfort zone in a big way. Um, and I would help her up to get, you know, the, the, the, the song. I'd come back and grab her. And then, you know, she always had these funny one liners when I'd get her back.

You know, I took your turn, Jamie. I was like, you good? Do you, what do you, do you need anything? She's like, yeah, a million bucks. Oh, I was just like, you're fucking hilarious. But she got a lot out of it. You know, um, usually your first time, you don't really have a lot. You're not really able to perceive everything that's happening to you at the time. A lot of the work happens after the workshops.

So it's really good to be checking in with each other on a daily basis for at least a couple of weeks after you do the medicine. So you can, you can, cause everything starts to unfold a lot more than you think it's going to. Um, the medicine continues to work. And so she's noticed that in a big way that she's, she's releasing a lot of trauma from childhood and stuff like that. And it's funny enough, I, I have a. All my grandparents were almost dead. I'm like, my mom's mom was alive still.

And I was about 2005. I did a recording. I videotaped her and I asked her, I did this like hour long interview about her life. I just watched that last night, actually. And it was so interesting to see, you know, I could see all the similarities between her and my mom. And, you know, so, you know, my granny lived through world war two is she was getting bombed by the Nazis in London when, when, you know, where she met my grandpa, you know, hearing the soul stories and her original.

Flame was the spitfire pilot, you know, that she was, had the hots for and he died. I was like, my grandpa was kind of like second place, but, um, you know, it's a 50, 54 year marriage before he died. And so, and it was just really interesting to see, you know, that's not that far away in my, in, you know, in your bloodline, when you think about it and what, what kind of experiences they were going through.

Um, and how much that really affects you more than you think, you know, you, cause you're, you're a product of, of them. And it's not just your physical traits that you inherit from, from your family. You know, it's a lot of it, it's, it's, it's their emotional and spiritual states as well. Also their addictive behavior patterns, all of that kind of stuff is, is something you have to deal with. So it's, it's really, it really works on that and a very deep level.

And so it was a magnificent experience to have my mom there for sure. I hope she does it again. I think she would. We did three nights in a row, you know, and that's, that's pretty intense, you know, like by the third night, you're like, fuck, I don't know if I can do any more of this processing and stuff. And you're just raw. Um, but she, she managed and so I think she'd like to do like a one or two night experience next time she does it.

Cause you know, she's 70 and it's pretty hard on your body. Um, I mean, even when I'm doing it, um, 45 is like, yeah, you're like done at the end of it. You know, a lot of purging, a lot of releasing, all kinds of, it's very intense work. It's definitely not going to have fun. What's that? You feel like a wrung out towel afterwards. Exactly. It really is like that. It is. You know what I've noticed too, is it, it, it stringes your cells like, you know, cause you don't think about it.

You're like 60, 70 percent water, right? So that's all of your makeup of your, your being. You carry a lot of water within you. Have you guys seen those experiments or like dark field microscopes and stuff where they, where they, they freeze, like, you know, what the, when you. Put a certain emotion into, into water and then you freeze it.

And then you take pictures of it with this dark field microscope and you can see the geometric patterns and how perfectly geometrically structured they are with like, you know, feelings of love and, you know, peace and harmony and stuff, and then anger is like all fractured, these fractured crystals and that are like jagged and anyway, so. I think really your, your, the medicine squeezes all of that water out of you. That's negative.

And so you release a lot of your, well, I usually lose two or three pounds of water weight when I do the medicine and it's just squeezing out of you, like all this negative imprints that are, you carry around within the water, within yourselves. Not that's, that's like a, this cellular imprints that you're, that are, you carry, you know, within you. It's very interesting. So I tapped in, I just typed in Japanese scientist. And, uh, the auto filled water experiment.

I think that's what you're talking about. Yeah, that's it. Yep. It's super interesting. So that's, that's, I think that's, I definitely feel like that's what it does. It detoxes all of this negative water out of your cell makeup, you know, it's out of your body. I asked that, um, more or less as a warmup question, but, uh, damn, you came with the heat right off the bat.

Um, I want to get back to that both Matt and I want to talk about that more because I think it applies a lot to your perspective on base jumping and who you are as a person. But I wanted to start off with a memorable jump because you have a lot of them and there's one in particular that I think that you went to a really great extent just to get make it to the roof. Will you give us a story? Yeah, that definitely.

I mean, that's, you know, kind of what pinnacles, uh, my experience with urban, um, was the Trump tower in Chicago. And that was, uh, back in 2012. Um, I was with my mentor, Kyle Dewey, and he's someone I want to talk about later on because he was a massive influence on me and why, why I have such a passion for urban.

Um, anyway, we, we'd gone to driven from Colorado to Chicago to, you know, we knew it was a big skyline there and lots of nice buildings and, um, We, we did our usual thing, uh, which I learned from him in Hawaii, which I'll talk about more later, uh, but he became my, my partner and we, we, we did a lot, a lot of buildings together, but so we go to Chicago and it's windy there a lot. So we're just like, okay, we'll go do some recon. We'll go check out some stuff.

And you know, we did that and we got into more higher security buildings as we went along and it was still windy. Um, so we weren't able to jump. And so we said, you know, let's just try something that's probably impossible. Let's just go and take a look and see how far we get, you know, and then we looked at all the tallest buildings there and. The Trump Tower is the third tallest building in the country. Uh, Sears, Sears Tower is a little bit bigger, I think.

Um, and then that, the World Trade Center is the tallest. So we go in and, uh, actually we get pretty far on our first access attempt. Um, not, and we came to realize later that, so the, the Trump Tower is actually three buildings. So it's a, it's a hotel on the bottom. And then the middle section is a, is its own residential. And then the top section is a high end residential and they're all separated from each other with their own security measures.

So actually, you're breaking into 3 buildings to get to the top of that building. Uh, and so that we kind of learned as we went, it took us about a week, honestly, of going back and forth with different disguises and tools. Um, switching stairwells and taking notes. And, you know, um, we'd build these Google earth files all the time together that, uh, you know, Kyle's a EOD chief in the, in the Navy, very high ranking and been doing it for a long time.

And so his, his mindset for this kind of strategy is really detailed oriented and taught me how to, how to approach urban that way as well. Um, so anyway, we, we, we made it. All the way to the roof hatch one time and we're looking at the roof hatch and seeing this thing and we could see there's a camera pointing at it, probably motion sensor camera, so we knew we had a limited amount of time to get access to that roof hatch. And, you know, once that was on, it was full, you know, game on.

So we, uh, we called the locals and we said, look, you know, we're in your town and, um, I'm going to apologize right now, but we're going to probably burn your city for a while. Um, but this is, this is a massive jump. Like this is, we can do it. And we're inviting any of you guys that want to do it, you're welcome to come with us and we will take you and show you, you know, this is a once in a lifetime kind of thing, and only one guy came with us.

This guy, Paul. I, I gave him instructions how to find us. We were hiding in a, in a maintenance hallway on the like 91st floor for like, I don't know, two or three hours. You know, we'd had a state dinner at, at the Trump tower restaurant, you know, paying customers, so it was nice. Um, Had business suits on and we had our rigs and suitcases, you know, and we had to climb. I don't know how many flights of stairs. It was a lot.

Um, and then in the end, we had to hide for hours to just let it get later at nighttime. Um, so the whole time I'm freaking out, just panicking and thinking, oh, we're for sure getting arrested. Like, this only way this is going down. And, you know, I think Kyle was playing like robot unicorn or something on his phone. Just super relaxed. You know, he's yeah. He's been on three tours and, you know, guys like, just no stress at all. Um, so he, yeah, put things into perspective.

Um, anyway, Paul finds us and we, you know, we had track suits. So it was a buildings, 1200 feet. And so we threw on, you know, old school two piece Phoenix fly track suits and, uh. When it was game on, man, we got up to the, got up to the hatch. We had planned to, we thought it might take too long to actually pick the lock. So we took pictures of the lock and we bought an exact replica of the lock. And the, the idea was for us to do a switch, basically take that.

Take the original lock off and put our lock on it. We wanted to try to make it repeatable, right? We kind of had that idea that, man, it wouldn't that be cool if after we leave Chicago, we could give the keys to someone here that's local and, and, you know, go, here you go, you're welcome. Like now you can do it. Um, It didn't go that as planned, actually. So we got up there and, um, remove the lock and then we're about to put putting our lock on there.

And in that process, we could hear here to stairwell. We didn't know there was a, there was a security station. I think 2 flights below us. So. Actually, 1 of the guards is watching that that that camera. I'm sure it flipped on the screen, you know, with our with our presence there. And so with with no time at all, we had a security coming up that up the stairs. Um, you know, so we had to bail.

Basically, I had to climb out that thing had to jump down this, like, 20 ft section onto the roof and it's. Pretty windy up there. But you know, we talked to our ground crew ahead of time. Uh, we had a lot of planning around that too, so, so Chicago has a bunch of underground highways, um, that are right below the surface there. And, uh, we're right next to the Chicago River where the Trump Tower is, and we're tracking over the Chicago River. Uh, and we're landing on the opposite side.

And right there, there's a stairwell that goes down, um, into, and there's, into the entrance of the underground highways. Um, and there's just, you know, very. Nice at them to leave a little pull off spot right there. So we call our ground crew, you know, she drives up and gets into that location. Um, so basically, once we land, we can just run down the stairs and then get into this underground highway.

And so anyone that saw us or had any, they couldn't even tell where we got in the car or any of that because we access this underground highway. So, yeah, me and yeah. Me and Kyle go together. Um, I get a great track on. Kyle tracks like a set of car keys. So he makes me look awesome. And, uh, And, uh, Paul went first, actually. And Paul was slick. That was one of the more gangster moves I've ever seen. He has a 180. He does not track very well. Pretty good delay, 180 turns it around.

He doesn't make it over the river. He lands on the cross section of the rivers, a little bridge going over the river, and then he hails a taxi and he's gone in like 30 seconds, like, wow, that was amazing. So then we get in our, in our getaway car and, um, This is great. You know, cause Kyle's my, you know, he's my hero. He's my mentor for urban, one of the most coolest and collected, you know, jumpers I've ever met.

Um, and as soon as we were driving away, he's just outside of the window, just puking his brains, just like so much. Adrenaline and just intensity, you know, and I just kept it all down. And then as soon as we're out, he's just hurling outside of the windows. We're driving away. You know, we thought we did pretty good. Like, you know, pretty clean, you know, and then, um, we didn't know that someone had called it in.

And so, you know, it became the headline of every news channel and, you know, paper across the country. And we wake up in the morning thinking, you know, have a nice, relaxed morning. And then we turn on the TV and we're on like every new station possible. Um, they, they had pictures of us that we had, we had one of the cameras in the stairwell we had missed. And so they had pictures of us all dressed up nice with our suitcases and, uh, you know, APB out for us and all of that stuff.

So it became, you know, we got to get out of this state like now. Uh, so that was another whole section of that experience. Tossing a bunch of tools in a river and, you know, flying back to Colorado with hats on and, you know, Groucho Marx style so that the cameras don't see your face, right? Like full experience for sure. Well, I got a question on that. The fallout was pretty big. Uh, and I remember seeing all of this on the news.

Can you just fill us in again on, uh, what year this all happened? Yeah, it was 2012. So, um, you know, it's five year statute limitation for that. So I didn't talk about it for a while, uh, waited for all of that to expire basically. So at this point it's it's free game, you know, and also Kyle was very much involved in all his military stuff and he's he's about to retire. So I think it's it's a fair game to bring it all all out into the open right now.

Um, and you know, I, I'm not really a big Trump fan, so I wouldn't mind, you know, if he does run for president again, just kind of releasing that video kind of somewhere, you know, IP, different IP or something like that. And just being like, I think this guy can protect you guys from, you know, terrorists and Mexicans. He can't even defend his own building from a couple of base jumpers. Yeah, that was all post nine 11.

Protocols too, which is why that was such a huge deal because you guys broke into what was supposed to be one of the highest security buildings in the country and, you know, just kind of did it on a whim as some fun prank. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was wild. I mean, we just couldn't believe we pulled it off. And you know, that couple of months later, that's when Marco and those guys jumped the world trade center, actually got invited on that, on that load.

And I thought they were, I was like, there's no way do you guys, there's no way you guys are pulling that off. And they did, they just, they just got screwed in the end by all the surveillance cameras and everything. They put the piece together, ended up raiding their houses like months later or something like that. Yeah. How did you guys avoid that? I think that we got lucky with, with just our planning on the surveillance, you know, they just really didn't have enough data on us.

They, and they didn't, they went to skydive Chicago. They asked a bunch of jumpers, you know, if they knew who we were and all that kind of stuff. And so they did a little bit of investigation for a while, and then it just kind of petered out, you know, and the next news news story was on the, on the TV. So. Um, we got, we got lucky that way, but I just didn't go back to Illinois for five years.

You know, you said that, you said that as soon as you opened up the hatch that, um, you, they were coming. How did you know they were coming? You could hear them. So they could hear like door open, like just like a, like a level below us where it's like big engine room we're in. And then there's, you know, the stairwell is just below us and you could hear the door fling open and people start running up the stairs. Oh shit. Okay. So that was, that was like, okay, well this I'm not, yep.

That's either I'm jumping or I'm going to jail. That's, that's the only choice now at this point. Um, so yeah, it was awesome. I got like a good 10 second track off of it and I was super stoked. Um, that was, that was, so yeah, we were driving away and I was like, that was it. That was probably the, that was probably the pinnacle. I probably just got to the top and it's probably like nice, smooth ride down from here.

But. Um, yeah, that was, that was kind of sealed the deal for me, um, with, with urban, I'd already, it had already happened for me because of my experience out in Hawaii and we can talk about that whenever, but, um, that was kind of how I built my passion for urban was, was going out to Hawaii and I was doing tandems out there, Scott of Hawaii.

Uh, I met Kyle Dewitt, me and him had started jumping around the same time, 13, 14 years ago, and he, uh, he said, yeah, man, you want to learn like the dark arts, you want to learn. You want to learn what, how to be an urban jumper? And I was like, yes, I do. And he's like, had all these tactical, so he's, uh, you know, trained by the military pretty heavily and had all these tactical books on urban warfare and all this stuff like that.

And a lot of it is, was breaching protocol on how to, how to get into buildings and out of buildings. And, um, he's like, okay, well, you got to read this book, this book, this book, and this book, and then, you know, we'll start. We'll start talking from there and you don't have to remember those books. What were those books?

There was some kind of military Like some of them were manuals, some of them were like, you know, like printed out and some of them were, were actually like hard, hard backs. I can't remember exactly the details of that, but he made me read him though. So I'm assuming that there's like a, they were teaching a softer approach to enter a door and yes, a lot before putting an explosive on it. All of the attempts to basically, uh, bypass, um, security.

And that's, that's kind of your main objective with urban is you, it's, it's much more time consuming if you have to actually focus on the security details that they have on the door or the gate or whatever kind of protocol they have. It's, it's much more effective to find the loophole would like to bypass. And there's, there's lots of bypass tools where you're not even attacking the.

The problem, the main problem, whether it be a lock or an electronic system, you're, you're finding a weakness within that whole system. And strangely enough, they're, they're, they're most a hundred percent of the time, and some of them are harder to find than others, but it's just like, you know, in star Wars, when there's like this massively powerful death star planet that can kill planets, and it happens to have this little torpedo shoot that, you know, these guys could fly down this.

Canyon and within the Death Star and then just shoot these torpedoes down this hatch and you blow up the whole Death Star kind of thing. That's kind of how it is in urban. It's there's always there's always that like torpedo like tube that you can find if you look hard enough. And that's that's really kind of your main goal. In urban is to figure out where that weakness is. So yeah, anyway, I spent six months out there, six, seven months out there with him.

When I first showed up to Hawaii, I think there was six or seven buildings that had been jumped regularly in Honolulu, Waikiki. And, uh, when I left, I think there was 37 buildings that were being jumped. And before Kyle left the Island, he, those 50 buildings that he had jumped. So he opened 43 buildings there and I was there for probably 30 of them. Um, and was the same situation as the, as Chicago was windy a lot in, in Hawaii. So we just do recon, recon, recon.

And I, and then, you know, that's one of my favorite parts of urban really it's. It's the magnificent hidden gem within it that you don't think about too much until you really get involved in it. So much, you know, it's a moving chess board is, is what urban is. There's you, you go and you build a mental map of a, of a site, right?

So your first approach is, is coming to the site, uh, doing an assessment of it from the exterior, uh, making notes about any kind of, you know, hazards in the way, whether it be power lines or trees or. Um, you know, train lines or whatever that kind of stuff. Um, and then obviously, uh, checking to see the, what the wind patterns are usually because it changes greatly within a cityscape.

You can have a, you can look on your weather map and you can see, you know, what the wind speeds are for that particular night that you want to jump, but it can vary. Much, uh, in within the whole cityscape itself, because when gets kind of venturi through the different structures, kind of like when a river is running, and it turned into white water rapids is because it's getting funneled. You know, that the water is getting funneled into a tight location. So that that that plays a part.

Um, and then obviously from that point, you're, you're trying to make access, learn how to access the building. Um, hotels are generally the easiest just because they're used to traffic. Residential is the next and then, you know, corporate, you know, business of the generally the hardest. Um, and so then you're planning accordingly to that. You know, how do I get access without being seen? How do I get to the roof? Uh, roof access. What kind of tools do I need to make that happen?

Um, what kind of security measures do they have, whether it be surveillance or whether it be, you know, rotating guards, all of that stuff you take notes about and you watch, you know, sometimes I'll sit at a building for a couple of hours and just watch everything so that I can, I can see. Exactly. The, you know, the whole mental map of the area and it's, and it saved me before I've gotten into a, you know, 42 story chase before and within a building.

And because I'd done so much homework on the building ahead of time, I knew that building better than the guard did, you know, so I was able to outsmart him within the building and then, and then escape the building without getting caught. You know, it was massive. It was like five guards chasing us. That was a crazy one. Um, so yeah, yeah. I spent, uh, all that time with him out there and that really, I mean, we, we get few nights where it was zero wind.

And when that happened, we had, you know, a laundry list already built. We had a Google earth file and every with pins and you could click on the pins and it would drop down all the information that you need, um, to access that building. What kind of tools you need? Everything was there. And so then we would just go and we do like, we jumped till it was daylight.

You know, we'd, we'd go and we'd just go all night and jump from Three to five buildings in a night, you know, just, just go and smash them out. Um, then pass on that information to local jumpers and people. And so that, that, that became, that was really kind of like the hallmark, like the staple of my experience that really kind of solidified, you know, me as an urban jumper, and that was what I wanted to focus on.

Uh, you know, and then back in the day when, when we were learning, you know, it wasn't wingsuiting was just kind of coming out, you know, it was just kind of really people getting mainstreamed at that point, I was watching Shane McConkie and all those guys, you know, flying like tiny suits off of, you know, big fjords in Norway and stuff. And those, those proxy videos were for first coming out when I was getting into the sport. So the progression back then was, was quite different.

You know, the progression in base jumping was, you know, jump off a bridge, get, get, find a mentor, you know, these. Big classes didn't really exist as, as much as they do now.

Um, so I really kind of want to talk about that too, cause I think mentorship is a very important part of, of, or of jumping and it's kind of been lost with, you know, how many different classes and courses and things you can do now, um, which is, I think also great, but you know, especially in urban, there's, there's no, there's none of those classes, there's no one teaching that stuff and, you know, so you're kind of going in blind every time and all this very

valuable information from the generations ahead of you never gets passed down. Well, let's start on some of that. Uh, and before we get into the tools and tricks and tips, maybe you can mentor all of us by giving us some of the ethics involved in jumping urban. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and that's, and that has kind of evolved over time. When I, when I first got into the sport.

trying to find someone to teach you how to get to a building or find a building or give you information about a building was practically impossible. Like it was, you know, you had to, you had to prove yourself like, I don't know, over and over and over and over again, somehow, without having the. The experience or the data to be able to prove yourself in the first place. So trying to get into the building scene when I, when I first started was, was really hard actually.

Um, and in the end it was what made me a really good urban jumper because I was like, well, okay, fine. If no one wants to show me, I'm just going to go and start jumping these things and figure it out for myself. And so that's what I did. And I just started, um, going, you know, and, you know, opening new, new buildings. And that, that really is.

Um, a valuable asset to learning how to be a good jumper with whatever kind of objects you're jumping is actually opening your own exit points and knowing what it's like to go through that process to, you know, there's no data. There's no 1 to give you any tips, and you have to kind of do all the logic yourself. And build that map. Um, so when I started, it was basically no one talked about it. You know, it was, no one showed the videos, no one did anything.

It was just kind of like the super duper secret thing you could do in base. And you had to find someone like that would, you know, you would trust you enough to give you this information. And then you would kind of team up with a very limited amount of people, usually one or two people. And that became kind of my, you know, scene was, was just getting into that. Um, very, very. Tiny little subculture of base jumping. And that's what I'm talking about.

When it's like, when you're talking about, they need to trust you. And along the ethical line of questioning, I'm wondering what are they trusting you not to do here? I mean, not to burn the, so the, you know, the main idea was. The main secrecy around urban, obviously, it was because these are high security, you know, high profile objects to jump off.

And so the idea was that we, you know, you, the best jump was one that never got talked about or known about because it meant that it was repeatable. So that that was the idea. When you found a good building, there was, the idea was to be able to get in and out without damaging any property without being seen.

And, you know, pulling off the jump and then being able to go back a week later, if you wanted to, and you can still jump the same object without any, any new repercussions, because you were invisible the whole time. And so that, that's kind of, that was very, it's still, that is still true like that. Not to the extent that it was when I started, but that, that really kind of made it. So it was a very secretive thing.

And if anyone, you know, if you posted a video, for instance, or something like that, you get, you know, people would shit down your, down your neck about it. Um, and, you know, so.

It was very much this, you know, kind of hush, hush, you know, talk within the community, you know, if, you know, who was jumping, then, you know, and if you don't, you don't, um, you know, and I kind of, I, I kind of rubbed against that a little bit, actually, I, I didn't, I didn't necessarily agree with that whole principle. I wanted to make it more, the information more open to people that were passionate and had the skillset to get into.

Cause you know, the way when we started was you jumped a bridge, the next one was an antenna, right? And then you got to a cliff, which is, you know, cause you're just dealing with the difficulties of this, of the object. So, you know, cliff and a, and a building being more technical than an antenna and a bridge. So the, that was the natural progression.

And when you got, you know, the building was the last thing you typically got, you know, and that was kind of to make your base number to get your base number. Um, and so, you know, it's progressing down, down the technical, uh, aspects of the objects in the building was the last one. So that was kind of like the Holy grail for a long time.

And, you know, before wingsuit proximity flying came into the picture and all that, it was getting your building was kind of like the moment, you know, you're just like super stoked and get your base number. And, um, it's kind of the pinnacle of your experience at that time. And what led you to, to do base, uh, uh, what led you to attack buildings as your primary mode of jumping after that?

Cause I remember back in the day, your reputation was that you had come into town, commune with some of the locals and then open more buildings in like one week than most of the locals had done in their entire career. Yeah, obsessive, I guess, um, personality type, you know, it's a, it's a, I have, I have, I have that type, you know, I get fixated on something and I just tunnel vision it. And, um, and that for me was a really healthy outlet from, from my personality type.

Um, and, and was urban to me. It was just this such a. You know, I got into Bay shoving, um, for probably different, different reasons than other people have. I, I, the reason I got into Bay shoving is because I saw it as this kind of rebel sport that was kind of pushing back against society and mainstream idealism. And, you know, it was, uh. A silent and respectful, peaceful way to reject what I think is a lot of problems within society.

And so that was my attraction to it initially was I wanted to find something where I could, I could have my own silent kind of rebellion. And so. Urban really represents that for me. Urban, urban has all of the criteria there. You know, it's people, you're in the concrete jungle.

You're basically in the heart of, you know, these epicenters of kind of what we see, a lot of people see as a wrong, you know, or problems within society is kind of built, it kind of represents a lot of that, you know, and being able to get through it and, um, unseen and, you know, have this objective to jump and get away.

It really, it really kind of solidified what, what I, what I identified with Bay jumping, you know, Bay jumping now has become much more of a mainstream sport and people are, you know, real athletes are getting into it to be athletes, to get sponsored, to get noticed, to do all this stuff. When I got into the, into it, it was just a very, very much a very odd fringe, you know, idea. And it was, you know, considered very reckless and, and, um, you know, kind of out, out, out, out of the norm.

And now it's, now it's much more accepted and much more mainstream. So yeah, that was, that was my attraction to it for sure. The description of what you give there, you were looking for that before you found base. I mean, I was definitely looking for that before I found base. Yeah. Wow. What are, what are some of the other things that popped up on your radar before you, uh, you landed on base? I'm curious because it seems very specific.

Yeah. So I mean, anything that kind of put me in that zone really. So I, I to I road race professionally for a while. I used to, you know, going around tracks and dragging knee and doing all that stuff. Motorcycles, um, motorcycles. Yep. So high speed motorcycles, uh, riding. But any, anything that kind of put me in that zone. And so I, and that really ties back to my, my spirituality, I guess you could say. You know, I, I, I believe that that.

We're here for a purpose that, you know, we're, we're not just in these meat puppets for no reason. There's, there must be something higher. That must be a higher reason than just coming here to work and have a family and kind of go through the natural progression that we're taught. So I really got heavily into when I was in college, I got into comparative religion. I got into studying different kinds of meditation and different kinds of Eastern philosophies. I got into nutrition.

I got into many things like that, that, you know, I was really searching for answers all the time in my life. Like, what, what, what am I doing here? What is the purpose of this, this whole experience? Um, so I would dig very deep into the philosophy of life and, uh, you know, the concepts behind just the daily normal experience that we're on.

And that really kind of, I saw in base jumping, I saw that connection there, you know, there was something there that was very powerful, very spiritual, um, when you jump. And I think that's a big part of why I was attracted to it in the first place, you know, and it's hard, it's hard to catch in the beginning because it's such a kind of, you know, chemical soup, such a cocktail of emotions and feelings that come up in such a. Very short amount of time when you're in the experience of jumping.

Um, but when, after some time of really kind of being in the, in the sport and repeating this process over and over, I was able to understand something very deep and powerful that was happening within those few seconds, especially the seconds that you leave an object. And before your parachutes out, um, there's, there's this, there's this very.

Critical time in your consciousness that a lot of things happen, I think that really kind of transfer over to me, understanding my life in a much more profound way than I did before jumping. And so I started realizing that I was, I was less addicted to or needing the adrenaline or the high or anything from that. You know, those are, those are kind of byproducts of the experience, but really the, the hidden gem for me was.

The information that I learned about myself in those few moments of accepting your mortality, of accepting your life, kind of in the surrender at the same time, realizing that, you know, you have to make an action to stay alive at that point. And so there's a very much a deep sense of peace and gratitude and things that come in those moments of realizing, you know, that you, you have.

You have, you have consciously decided to make a decision to put yourself in imminent danger until you make another action to save your, your own life. And so there's a, there's a very nice flow state and sense of awareness that, um, I really learned to. Observe by kind of going back in my mind after the jumps and really kind of reliving them in my mind and understanding that, wow, that is such a powerful moment right there. You know, how much it taught me about just day to day life.

And, you know, I'm 45 now, man, this, this life has gone by quick already. And I'm starting to, you know, my mom's 70. I'm starting to see how, you know, how time is just creep creeps up on you so quickly. And so it really is applied to my life in the sense of I, whenever I see my friends, I tell him I love him. I give him a hug. I make sure I'm like meaningful and deep with people, um, in every moment that I can be, because it really, you just don't know.

And, you know, obviously you guys all know, we've all lost really good friends along the way in this sport. And, you know, we've, we've had to face death and what it means, um, and to be alive much. earlier than most people have because of this activity. So I think it's a very important thing to for every jumper to contemplate, you know, and to talk about and to realize kind of, you know, the depth of this activity can affect you. Well, well, we're talking about every jumper.

If we can bring the conversation a little more practical side and go through a bit of a progression of how somebody will get, could get into bait, uh, into urban base jumping. Maybe you can start with how one proves themselves to someone like you who has the keys to the castles. Um, I mean, definitely, you know, passion and intention is a big part. Um, you don't, for me, you don't necessarily have to have the good skill set right off the bat.

Cause not everyone is, you know, a brilliant quick learner, you know, I'm always jealous of my friends that are just like, you know, Oh yeah, I picked that up within a week. I was like, what? It took me months to figure out. Um, you know, so that's not always the case, but what is, what is important is the drive and the dedication and the willingness to learn, you know, is to be, is to remain humble.

And no matter I, and for me, I don't care, I don't care if I've got, you know, 100 more buildings than you do. If you come and you teach me something on a, on a building that I didn't think about before, I'm going to listen and I'm going to try to apply it, you know, and see if it makes sense to my data and my skill set. So I think that's really kind of. The main thing, get rid of the ego, you know, get rid of like, you know, Oh, I got to be this good.

I got to show off and I got to prove myself that way. You know, it's like remain humble, remain open. I want to see that you're, you're putting the pieces together, you know, like I want to be able to see there's a, there's a thought process there. It's not about just, um, an activity that makes you cool or, you know. Gives you credit and or status or any of that kind of stuff. It's, it's about, you know, learning process and an ability to calculate risk.

You know, I think that's, that's probably the main key ingredient for base jumping is the ability to calculate risk. If you can do that well, then you'll stay alive for a long time in base jumping. So the minute you get out, get ahead of yourself or you doubt yourself, or you start to kind of, uh, move too far outside of your box that you, things can get.

Can't go south, you know, so I really do believe that it's, you know, I always am pushing myself to be a better jumper, but I also know the limits of, of that push within each jump. So, and that's something that you learn as you go along, you know, I think everyone's first couple of years and jumping is pretty wild. I know mine was, and I was managed to survive it basically just by luck, most mostly. And, uh, and after that I, I changed my approach. Pretty heavily.

I had a near death experience in my first, my second year of jumping and, um, it really, really changed my whole approach to, to this whole, this whole. You want to tell us about that one? Yeah, it was intense, man. Um, I was in Glenwood Springs in Colorado and, uh, it's a nice exit there that Hank Kaler opened up a long time ago. And, uh, we went there and there was a nice right to left wind at the exit point. And I know at that time I thought I was invincible. I could do whatever I wanted.

And I did a gainer and, uh, had a weak pitch. And in that, on that pitch, the, the bridal was blew across my, my waist, um, to the other direction. And so I, I was towing my bridal, you know, as I came around in the rotation, I'm towing my bridal and there's just, there's no way I'm going to get anything out and I think it was about six or seven seconds to impact on that jump. And, um, you know, so I'm just kicking and flailing, no airspeed at all. Just basically like, wow, this is it.

Like, this is how you go, bud. And, uh, I saw the, the pine trees go by and those pine trees are like 70, 70 feet tall. I'm still on my back. And, uh, at that point I, I, I knew it was dead. Like, and then now I do that whole, like when you look below that landing or that jump, the, the whole talus is just these gnarly, like seven, eight foot boulders, like car size boulders everywhere. And like, there's just, when you look at it, you're like, okay, that's not an out.

If I have an off heading, like. That's not an out. I got to go fly somewhere else. That's definitely no go place to go. Um, that was where I was heading to. So anyway, I saw the trees go by and in my mind, I knew I was dead. And actually this is what saved my life is I completely relaxed. I don't know how I did it, but it was a very quick moment of a second that I just relaxed. Like kind of like, you know, when you see an antelope about to get hit by a tiger and the antelope just.

Completely goes limp and that's, that's what I did. And I just said, okay, well, this is it. I'm looking up at the sky and just, and I had this whole thing happen, man. I had the whole life flash before my eyes thing. I saw crazy stuff of my childhood and stuff. I couldn't remember before I unpacked this all, um, months as the months after this. But. Uh, anyway, so as I relaxed that, that's what cleared the bridle and, uh, parachute came out and actually I still, I hit the ground on my head.

I hadn't even swung around in the harness yet from the line stretch and, and. And I hit in the only sand patch that was on that fucking talus, like the, the, the, just this little three by three sandbox is where I hit on my head upside down and didn't, you know, that was it anywhere else I would have landed within a five foot radius. I'd be dead for sure. Um, so yeah, I went to the hospital and, you know, somehow I didn't break anything and I was just kind of had a lot of muscle damage and.

And actually I didn't have insurance at the time and the lady knew what happened. And she, she, she, one of the nurses pushed me out the back of the hospital and I was like, what is going on? She's like, it's your lucky day, pal. Like, you know, go, go buy a lottery ticket and get lost. Oh my God. Wow. Glad you, uh, glad you survived that one. Yeah, that really, really changed everything for me, for sure.

How did you, I wanted to, I wanted to, the part about mentorship too, cause I think this is a pretty potent, uh, sub, uh, I think this is a pretty potent topic. How did you find Kyle? So Kyle, we kind of found each other actually. We went, we both ended up in, in Arizona of all places I'd moved out there and that's where I met Matt Froelich too and Matt Froelich was a big mentor of mine.

Um, he kind of taught me a lot about just object awareness and spatial awareness and all the things I kind of. We're, we're my kind of foundation for jumping. And then Kyle was my urban kind of mentor, you know, is the guy that really took me on there. And actually me and me and Kyle started jumping with Matt Froelich. Me and Kyle had this, we're both starting out around the same time, same jump numbers.

And I met him on jumping cam, uh, actually camelback in Arizona, you know, that little, that little flick over there, if everyone does about two 40.

Uh, and then from that point on, we just kind of clicked and which is funny because he's a total military mind, you know, like Sith lord kind of guy and i'm like this kind of hippie spiritual like You know like way on that kind of end and somehow we we met in the middle with with jumping and um We became really good friends and and like and he he invited me out to to hawaii actually it was we'd done a couple buildings together and Uh, and he said, Hey man, you want to come out here?

We can, we can really tear it up. And so I got a job out of Scott of Hawaii and that was, that was the beginning of our, our, you know, gnarly friendship together. We did a lot of, I learned so much from that guy. It's, uh, incredibly experienced in his field of, uh, access work. Yeah. Can you fill us in on some of that access stuff? Because we've touched on it several times. We haven't delved into it very much. Yeah. Maybe you can give us some of the skill sets.

Uh, that you developed with him that might be helpful for other people to hear so they can start developing those skill sets. Definitely. Um, so, you know, people get caught up on or obsessed about thinking they need to, like, learn how to pick locks really well, or they, uh. You need to learn the RFID kind of, you know, fob stuff and the, which is all, you know, nice stuff to know, but, but your main kind of bread and butter with, within accessing buildings is really a couple of tools.

Um, and then just having a good head on your shoulders, you know, and, and building, building a really good mental map for every jump that you do. I, I've onsighted a couple of buildings before where I didn't, I didn't do any homework ahead of time. And it was really not a great experience for me. I chose not to do that anymore. Um, it's much. Better if you really, you have to spend, you know, you have to dedicate time and effort to an urban jump.

And that's why there's not a lot of people that do it is you really have to kind of go back to this sites and build a relationship with it. And that's, that's, that's the best advice I can give is to build a relationship with the object, with the, with the building. So it's almost like you live there or like you, you, you go and do business there.

Um, it's that that's you want to have that kind of relationship interaction with it so that when you go into a place, you're not blind and you have a ton of information and data at your fingertips. And you know, when it's when it's good and when it's not good, you know, I've walked down. More buildings than I've jumped for sure. And it's, you know, there's, there's a lot of times where it just doesn't feel right. There's things aren't lining up.

Something unexpected is there that you, you didn't account for, um, that you need more data about, you know, to really be successful. And so, you know, if you do do all these jumps and then not get rolled, you know, it's, it's, it takes a, it's a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot of work. So that's, that's the, my main kind of, um, Advice for that is to really dedicate yourself to the object builder. Really?

It's like having a, um, like a, like a partner, you know, you're building, it's like a romance that you have with this object and that's so that it becomes this, this, this thing that you really kind of learn how it smells and it tastes and it feels and, you know, all the nuances that this. This particular building has, you know, that's something that I, I really like, it's like a love affair that I have with these, with these objects when I really get into it.

So you're really describing this as like getting to know, like somebody that you'd like to have sex with. It's like, if you just go and try and like jump into their pants, like it's not going to work, you know, but no man, you need to know what kind of perfume they like, you need to know what kind of. Flowers are into, you kind of know what kind of movies they want to watch. Like it's, it's, it's all of that.

And while we're just talking about tools, uh, where does the grappling hook come into play as far as necessary tools, the grappling gun? Yeah. The way we have these grappling hook a couple of times, actually. Yeah, we're not even joking, man. Dude, this was one of the things that. Uh, I learned from Jamie was that most of the security and buildings happens in the first two floors. Definitely. And if you can bypass those first two floors, pretty much the rest of the thing is open season. Totally.

And a lot of these buildings ended up having like exterior staircases or they'd have fire escapes or something like this, and we'd actually roll up to them with a grappling hook and just toss that thing into the second floor, walk up the wall and be done with it. Yeah, this is this is what we're talking about earlier is, you know, is is thinking outside of the box, not looking at the at the problem, the security problem that that is there to defeat you. It's looking around the security problem.

So that that's exactly like that. That's that's an example of that. I've used eight ladders before with with the tent pole connected to the eight ladder. And then I can open the tent pole up and I can connect it up to a, you know, a fire escape. That's, you know, 10, 15 feet up away from, from the ground floor and just use that to climb up and fold the tent pole. And you've got this little portable ladder in your pocket that you can use and to access things like that. So, yeah, that's, that's.

There's some of them are very specific, like tools that you need to invent or, or come up with to defeat the problem, but it's always that mindset that you're looking around, you know, because it's really, it's, it's very funny how they place such heavy security measures on what they think to be the only way to get into a building. And so you'll, you'll find that access point and be like, oh, yeah, they've, they've put some thought into this. They put a lot of attention to the kind of, you know.

Uh, deterrent devices. And then you walk around the corner and there's a, you know, and there's a window that's, you know, 10 ft up or that has no protection on it. And it goes into a stairwell in the parking lot. Parking lot gives you access to the building. Next thing you know, you're, you know, you piece your way up into the rooftop.

So it's, it's always that mindset that really kind of gets you to a building top is, is never, when you get to a place where you're stuck, go around it, find another way. And that they, I cannot stress it enough. Like, dude, I've, I've so many times I've gotten to a building like, Oh, wow. These guys really thought of everything. And they don't, there's always that little porthole that gets you to the place you want to go. You just have to look hard enough for it, you know?

And, and, and there's some tools that like. For instance, like an under the door tool is probably the most used one that we use. It's, uh, it's most roof hatch door, most roof doors or latch doors. And by fire code, they have to open from the outside of the roof. So if like, there's a fire in the building, the helicopter from the fire department can land on the rooftop and like access the building, right. But so they're locked from the inside and they open from the outside.

These are like giant coat hangers, basically with, with a string on it. And you're putting it under the door and it's hitting the back. You're getting it to the backside of the door where the latch is. And then you got to line it up and be able to, and then you're pulling on the string, you know. Underneath the door. And that's, that's opening the door latch from, from the outside that way. And you can do these things. You can just, you can bend them up and you can jump with them and stuff.

Um, so that's one's a very good one that we use that opens a lot of doors. Uh, definitely like, you know, just simple tools that you'd think of, like the credit card kind of stuff or like, uh, um, yeah, the shove it tools. You shove it tool. That's, that's kind of more meteor on steroids version of that. Um, sometimes, you know, sometimes tool what's that, let me just preface these questions because like, I'm basically an Alpine skydiver, one building.

Uh, so all this, I mean, like, you know, people ask us to have someone like you on because it's this micro niche in the sport of base jumping and, uh, yeah, it's something that I totally missed. So yeah, so a shove it tool is, is it's kind of a crude tool. It's basically just a metal looks like a shank, basically like a thin. Ruler size, uh, tool that you make. If you don't, you know, you don't ha they don't, you don't just buy it online, you know, but you can. But, uh, I make a lot of my own.

And basically that, that gets it so that you can get under the door, like where the, the door latch is and where the, uh, uh, what's the part on the door? What would you call it? The where, where the, where the latches inside the door. The part that holds the door in place, um, I can't remember. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not the slide. It's not the bolt, but it's the not the ball, but like we're connected to the, um, uh, to the handle of it.

So it's like a slim, the mechanism that holds the door in place basically, right? When the doors in, in the latch like that, that, that gets retracted when you turn the doorknob. Yes. When you, when you pull on a doorknob or turn the doorknob, it gets retracted and the door opens. Right? So, but when that's locked or. Um, has something in place to stop you from being able to get behind it. That those a shove it tool.

Essentially, you're getting behind the latch system and then you're manually opening it from behind it so that the mechanism of the door knob doesn't have to operate. You're you're manually doing overriding it. Basically, that's a pretty crude tool, but it works surprisingly enough on on a lot of doors because the, they don't, a lot of these, these doors, when they get installed, you know, they're, they're not, they're not really thinking so much of that has to be perfect.

You know, for these, all of these numbers to line up to be a super tight door that that's very uncommon to find doors like that. Uh, and that, you know, that even there's like. Things like, um, you can place a piece, these tools that you can pump up, there's a flat piece of, uh, plastic you can shove inside of a door and then you can pump it up manually. And that, that, that can actually create enough space in the door.

So you're moving the door with this, with this air pump, uh, and yeah, a little door shim. Well, door shim, basically, as you're creating enough space to access the parts of the door mechanism that you need to, um, you know, open. So there's, there's a lot of little tips and tricks that you kind of learn along the way. And that's why it's so important to do the homework ahead of time, because then.

Also, you know, these tools, if you get caught with them, it's extra fines for you and going to jail and whatever kind of stuff. Let's talk about that for a second, because, uh, while we're on the subject of tools, it's nice to mention that everyone should check out the legality of them. Uh, as Jamie just mentioned, some of them are illegal just to have on you. So Jamie, how did you, like, how did you mitigate that kind of risk? I mean, the main, I mean, in an ideal. World and jump.

You would you would not jump with the tools that you have. It's best if you can bring someone up with you like a ground crew or someone that's not jumping, like, say, your getaway driver, because very, very oftentimes we have a getaway driver if it's a high security building, and we're landing in a place where we're going to have security on us quickly. And you've got a, you've got someone on the ground that is watching their eyes on the ground for you.

They're giving you information before you jump. You're calling them like, you know, 2 minutes before you're going to jump and you say. Okay. Doing a status check on what, what's going on on the ground with the ground winds and, you know, general situation down there. And then, you know, telling 'em not to contact you un unless you know, they see something that needs to be talked about.

Uh, so basically if you can, then you have them come up with you and you give them the tools after you access the, the, the problem and they take the tools back down out of the building so that you're not jumping with the tools. 'cause if you get caught with the tools afterwards, that's. That's more legal problems for you, for you.

Um, and a lot of them actually create felonies, you know, whereas, whereas totally most of the time, most of the time, if you're jumping a building, it's a, it's a misdemeanor and honestly, most of the time they don't care and they think it's cool and they want to, you know, just kick you off the property. You know, that's most of the time what happens. And I've got a couple of notes on that one for anyone that's interested, uh, in trying to skirt this, uh, legality.

Um, if you don't have a Kyle Dewey in your life. Uh, one thing to do is to just go to a lock picking or go to a locksmith and most of the locksmiths like local locksmiths in your town will have, uh, you know, apprentices and people that they're teaching how to pick locks just for fun. And that's a really cool thing to just get in with them and say like, Hey, I'm, I'm just interested in this as a hobby.

I'd like to know how to pick high security locks and, uh, they could take you on as apprentice or they could just help you. Um, and then the second step. Is to register yourself with local law enforcement once you've got that in road with somebody at a, um, at a locksmiths and it's kind of a catch 22 because like you're putting your name on a list for sure. But what that list does is allow you to.

Like roam freely about society with all of these tools, uh, without getting, uh, arrested by the cops. Now the caveat to that is obviously if you're using them for illegal purposes, then you're going to get arrested no matter what.

But like in the slim cases where you like get caught, like, you know, on the street looking or like trying to survey a building or afterwards, after like your parachutes are all packed up and you're driving away, then you do have at least some, uh, Teflon for somebody saying, Hey, what are those? Interesting. And you know, there's, there's Like for instance, like hotels, perfect loophole there. So, you know, the main thing that there's no rules except for in Nevada and New York city.

Now they have actual ordinances against space jumping and city environments. Um, but everywhere else it's, there's no rules around that. It's just, they're just going to try to throw a trespassing on you. Right? So if you walk into a hotel loophole, go to the bar and buy a drink with your debit card or credit card. And you're a paying customer that night, so you're not trespassing anymore.

Can we talk about, uh, dealing with security versus the police and what it's like to, uh, to run from both and your advice on running from both? Check your local authorities. Uh, for instance, I've only had one, one time where I got busted and that was in Brazil. And, uh, it, I didn't know what the local laws there that were and local laws there are. You pay the cops money at they're all dirty cops there and they all just want their bribery money. And so you. Do not run.

If you're going to get caught by them, you just stop, give them money. And that would be the end of it. I learned that the hard way. Uh, and I started running from a cop on the beach and, uh, he shot his gun in the air while he was chasing me. And so I stopped, obviously I'm like, Oh, I'm going to get shot by, you know, Brazilian cop and he ran up with a knife and I thought I was going to get stabbed. And, um, and.

And instead of doing, doing that, he grabbed, he grabbed my brand new Hey Duke and he just started raping it with his knife and just like cut like 10 huge holes in my, in my parachute and he was just pissed that I, that I, that I was running, you know, he was like, why don't you know the rules? The rules are you just give me cash, right? That was a hilarious experience. I ended up going to the, down to the station. Um, me trying to do a, you know, bribing the cop along the way.

I carry a hundred bucks on me all the time when I'm jumping urban just as bribery money in case that'll work. And so I give him a hundred bucks. We get to the station, the hotel manager's there. Cause I was, I was a paying customer that night. All I did was I picked a lock, you know, so I didn't damage any property.

Uh, I jumped and then that was actually the cop caught me with, with the lock pick set, he had it in his pocket and he knew that was leverage for him to get more money out of me, you know.

You know, so anyway, we, we, we make the deal, give him a hundred bucks, uh, get to the station and the hotel managers, they're trying to bribe the cops to get me in trouble because there was nothing she could, she could get me on, but I'd given her, I'd given them way more money than she did, you know, a hundred bucks. There's like, it's like kind of, it's kind of a lot of money. Yeah. Um, so, so he's lying through his teeth when we get there. I don't know how the guy got on the roof.

You guys must've left the door open. Like, you know, he's definitely your fault. So. You know, if she, she kicks me out of the hotel, he drives me back to the hotel and get, get my stuff out. And the cop, the only English thing you said to me, he shakes my hand and he goes, uh, God bless you. And when he does that, he slips me my lock pick set back. And I was like, okay, so that's how it works in Brazil.

So you, you know, that's, that, that's, that's, that's a particular, like you go to Tijuana, for instance, any place like that, that that's the kind of stuff you need to think about that you need. Bribery money, right?

When you United States, um, you know, you, you want to, you want to run, you want to get out of there, you know, you want to, you want to be faster than the, than, than they are oftentimes, you know, security guards, they get paid, you know, 15 bucks an hour or whatever they're, they're not that interested in trying to roll you.

You know, they, they, uh, most of the time they just kind of chase you off or, or, you know, try to make a scene that for you to leave quickly, but, but won't bother to actually pursue you. So dealing with securities. Is, is actually a lot easier than you think. They're all so intrigued, you know, they're so bored and they're just sitting there every night. And then they see a couple of parachutes slam open, fly off their building. They're like, what the, you know, like, Whoa.

So they're like more intrigued and stoked than they are wanting to bust you. Um, so I've had, I've had a few experiences with that where they just kind of like, all right, man, that was rad. Just get out of here. Okay. Yeah. Um, you know, and then, so obviously, you know, the only time when cops get involved is when, uh, you get, if you get caught and they. They ask the property owner, um, do you want to press charges on this guy for trespassing?

And then that's the only time the cops get called. And sometimes if the cops get called and they can't contact and confirm that they want to do this, then they'll let you go as well. So I, you know, it's, it's really, it's not, people are just scared of the idea. Oh, I'm going to get caught. Like there's going to be serious repercussions. There's actually a lot of wiggle room within that.

Within that area to, to, you know, work your way out of a problems, just like you, you're doing when you're inside a building. Uh, so it's, it's not over when it's over, when you think it's over. There's, there's a lot of ways out of the experience. So even when you're dealing with security and cops, man, there's, there's some good pieces of advice that I'd like to just touch on real fast. Uh, one that you said is keeping a hundred dollars in your pocket, which I think is.

Excellent in the United States as well, because if you do that, uh, you have the opportunity to like, you know, pay some security guard or pay somebody that's like staying in the hotel for some help. And I think the second thing that I would always have in my pocket is a candy bar and no shit. This is just to look less conspicuous.

Cause like, if you're like, you know, reconning a building or you're in some like piece of the building that you're not supposed to like, and you know, the stairwell or whatever, you know, cigarettes work too, but like just being able to pull something out of your pocket and just start like nonchalantly, like eating or smoking it, like puts a lot of people at ease. Definitely. No, that's, that's, that's, that's, I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. Cigarettes.

I used to carry those all the time for that. Um, I don't smoke. But one of the funniest stories I use is actually with Kyle Dewey, my, my, my urban mentor and my buddy John czar. And, um, they were in a, they were in a building in Hawaii and they had all their tools laid out, you know, on the ground and they were trying to get this, this door problem figured out. And, uh, and a security comes in like, like a level below them and it's like. Charging up the stairs.

And so the, you know, they're just panicking and they, they don't have time to put the tools away or anything. I just kind of kick it to the side and they just look at each other and they just go for it, man. They just start tongue kissing, you know, and, and, and that, and it worked. This, uh, the, you know, the security came around the corner. It was like, Oh my God, the guys totally. What are you guys doing? You can't be here. You know, you got to go do that somewhere else.

And so, you know, that, that worked for them. I think, uh, the second important thing that you've brought up, uh, is that security guards are not generally there to roll you, um, though you can run from them in the United States, they're not, uh, legally. Allowed to detain you physically. They're not allowed to detain you. No, they're not. And so like, if somebody's standing in your way, just walk around them. Be cordial.

You don't have to, you know, you don't have to shove them outta the way and, and please don't, like, don't physically assault them, but they're not allowed to physically restrain you. And so you can run your ass off. However, if you are like meeting with the L A P D. Running from them is not a great idea. Like if you haven't already created enough distance that you can just get away, like they're within their rights to shoot you. And so that's not something that you really want to invite.

And most of the time, like Jamie said. They don't care. Like they're, they're trying to, they're trying to catch, catch rapists and murderers and thieves. And like, you're an inconvenience to their day. They don't want to go back to the station and do paperwork on you. Unless you run from them, like, you know, in that Brazilian situation where they're just like, okay, screw this guy. We don't care what we're doing. Grab him.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I, you know, and I, so one of the, actually this is a great example of, as, uh, Adam Foster, who's a good friend of all of ours, passed away like last year. And, uh, I went to his funeral and so that we, that was in Denver. When Denver, we were jumping this, this Hyatt, the Hyatt was like this go to building. I think it has the record. So I was like 18 or 19 people like jumped off it at one time. Um, and anyway, we used to, we used.

John Van Horn was, uh, was a guy that took the lock off the roof hatch and made a copy of the, made a key for it from one of his friends was a locksmith and they made like five copies of a key. And so we had, all of us had a key to this thing, so we could just go up and open it and. I have ground crew lock the lock behind us. And we, we jumped this thing. Like, like, you know, I think I got my base number off it. I probably got like 50 people, their base number off that building.

So that was like go to building. And anyway, Adam died and I had his ashes and I was like, okay, I gotta go. I gotta go jump this thing again. So I go, I go to the Hyatt and I case it and I, no one's really jumping urban there right now, a couple of guys. And they said, well, yeah, there's a under the door tool. We're going a different way now. And, um, It shouldn't be an issue.

So I go and I do it and they didn't know that since they'd gone and approached this building, a silent alarms had been put on on these doors. So I'm up on the roof. I've got a computer bag full of illegal tools and I'm, I'm out there in the middle of the day, just, you know, cage casing out this new exit point, whatever for, to get Adam's ashes off there later on that night and I'm coming down outside of the engine room and I see two hotel managers just running up the stairwell.

And, uh, my buddies managed to get out of the engine room in time and down the stairwell. And I, I was still up, climb down, climbing this ladder. And, uh, so I was just like, well, I'm, I'm stuck. So I, I climb back up this ladder and I'm hiding in this corner. I, the guys come into the engine room, they're walking around the elevator area and all that stuff, and I'm thinking, oh, okay, they're just gonna do a sweep and, and cruise.

And, and actually one of them decides to climb the ladder where I'm hiding. And he comes up and I'm like, well, this is it. Like, you know. Um, so I pop up and I'm, I just like, Hey guys, how's it going? Like, what's up? Like who the fuck are you? And I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm with the GRI. I'm just doing a roof inspection right now. It's a three o'clock appointment. And they were like, we don't have a record of GRI and gravity research Institute. Um, we don't have a record.

of. Have anyone by that name? He calls down, he talks to the front desk. He says, yeah, no one's checked you in. No one lets you up here. How'd you get up here? And I said, Oh yeah, it's a security guard. And I mentioned a guy that I'd seen just kind of described him. Um, and then, so they're taking me down the elevator, you know, and I'm like, I'm like, Oh, I'm going to get arrested for sure. And I'm thinking, thinking, thinking, and I was trying not to swear. I just small talk with these guys.

And I, and I remember that there's another Hyatt, like a block away from, from this, this Hyatt. And so I just like, you know, kind of casually like, Oh yeah, this is the Hyatt, uh, Regency. Right. And they're like, Oh no, man, this is the grand Hyatt. I was like, Oh, I thought, uh, yeah, I was supposed to be at the Hyatt regency. And they're like, Oh man, that's just down the block over there. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, totally.

So they like walk me out the front lobby and they point the Hyatt out to me and they're like, yeah, man, you just got to go over that way. Like, have a good day. See you later. So I was, you know, Did you guys have like cards of like, we do have cards actually. Yeah. Uh, we got pretty into the GR. I think we had t shirts and cards and, um, that was kind of Peter Conrad kind of came up with that originally. And, uh, so yeah, we've kind of continued that. That, uh, it works good.

Cause you've got it, you've got a story, you got an MO, you're confident when you talk, you know, they don't want to believe you're up there trying to case a building to jump off it. You know, they, they, they, especially in the day and you're dressed nice and right. Just so out of the realm of reality there.

Like, uh, who's, who's doing that, you know, let's get into some subterfuge because I feel like a lot of people in my day approached buildings in full tactical gear, which apparently is like not very, like, you know, you're not. Yeah, exactly. Can you, can you tell us about, uh, dressing for success, blending in, creating that subterfuge, creating that storyline so that like, if the worst case scenario happens, you're not like, and you actually have something to offer. Definitely.

I mean, that's all part of the planning that I was talking about. You know, like you're, you're, you're not just planning for success. You're also planning for failure. So you're also prepared for if worst case scenario happens. What if someone has a 180 and get stuck up on a rooftop somewhere? What if, you know, I can't make the main LZ and I've got a rendezvous with my crown crew later, later down the way, you know, what if I'm getting chased?

So those are all potential outcomes that I'm always I'm always planning for within my, within my kind of mental map of the object that I'm jumping. So, and that, that, that does, uh, uh, include, uh, outfit, you know, costume design, set design, you know what I mean? Like you, you need to be dressed for the part. If it's a really super swanky, you know, five star, you know, hotel or residential area, you want to look like you're rich. You know, you want to walk and I don't show off my tattoos.

I wear a collared shirt. You know, I wear something that's hiding my, uh, my rig really well. I don't walk in with a stash bag on my back. You know, I've got the actually, uh, Andrea, uh, makes these really awesome stash bags that look like book bags. So you just got a shoulder strap for them and they got a book bag. They expand, you know, where you can stash everything later. They're really well designed, really awesome bags. And they have that.

We're talking to Andrea Chan, just for everybody listening. Yeah. Shout out to her for those. Those things, those, because, because security starts to know what stash bags look like, you know, and that can give you away and, and, and they're just kind of tacky, they look like you're a robber when you walk in and there's a big black bag on your back, you know, so, uh, I, that's most of the time when they're suspicious of you, it's because they think you're trying to steal something.

It's not because they think you're, you're a jumper, you know, they're just like, oh, that guy looks like out of place and he looks like he doesn't belong here. So that's really helps a lot when you walk in and you're, you're already, you know, dress dressing the part, you know, and you look exactly. like everyone else. I like that, that whole side of it as well.

You know, the whole espionage side of it, the whole kind of blending in and just kind of, it feels like you feel like you're in a James Bond movie or a mission impossible or whatever, you know, you're, you know, it's that, that, I love that whole, you know, feel to it.

And then I remember we took, uh, we took, uh, some of those guys that are filming Scotty and Julia and, um, and Jimmy and Marta and, uh, Uh, Espin, um, and Amber and them, them, you know, with this documentary they're making about base jumping and, um, they've been all filming legal objects forever and finally I took 'em on, on, on a, on a illegal building jump and they were just so, they loved it. They were like, oh my God, this is so different than everything we've done before.

Like it was so, you know, the intensity and the stress of the legalities and all the things around it, it's a very different experience than just hiking up to an exit point and having that be the main. Point of concern, um, you know, there's, there's, there's this, this whole moving picture around you the whole time. And the, the, the jump itself is just a part of it.

And that, that's, that's what I love about us, like obsession about it is, you know, being able to create these mental maps to follow. Um, and then, you know, obviously part having, having your story ahead of time is really important as well. What happens if I get rolled? What am I going to say? Cause that's not the end. If that's the end, if you make it the end, it's not the end until, until you say it's the end, basically, you know? And so.

You can go in with confidence and with a good story, you know, people, people like, Oh, yeah. Okay. Sorry, man. Like I mistaked you for someone else, you know, and you know, here's the front door and here's my card and call me next time and whatever, you know, so you can, you can, you can Jedi mind trick people. If you can keep your common state collected, you know, and then obviously an inside my heart's beating 100 you know, in that state of adrenaline, but I'm able to maintain a composure.

And I think that's a big part of Bay shopping in general is being able to compartmentalize your, everyone has fear, right? That's normal. If you're getting to an exit point, you're not having some form of fear. And my, in my opinion, that's, that's not good fear. Fear doesn't, isn't something to be scared of.

It's not something to feel like it's, um, Kind of paralyze you or going to make, you know, make you distracted or make bad decisions the way, the way I've developed fear now is, you know, in the beginning of my jumping experience, it was kind of on the forefront of my experience when I was jumping. It was a very powerful energy that was there and it was overwhelming.

I just kind of navigated around it barely, you know, and now I've over the many years of jumping, I see it as this kind of data stream of information that's there always in the background telling me to stay safe and what my, you know, dangers are around me. But at the same time, I'm able to maintain a clear mind and not. Not attach myself to that, the, the information that the fear is giving me.

So in a, in a way I see fear now as, as just a, another stream or form of data that's helping me stay safe. And it's, it's not something that has to overpower me or has to get in the way of, of my ability to make clear and rational and good decisions while I'm jumping. So I, I see it more as my ally now than, than as an enemy or as something to overcome. And that's, that's what I really, um, learned from the years of jumping and how to manage fear.

And that, that applies to urban experience as well, the things that are scary outside of the jump. You know, everything that you're talking about urban, I think equally applies to all other forms of, of jumping, you know, like through the different wing suiters we've had on here and different slider down cliff jumpers. That is a commonality is just. Having that mental map of all the what ifs. Yeah, definitely.

Something else that's sort of, uh, flashing, uh, up or sparking my attention to is your level of, uh, self awareness. And, uh, that's another commonality that's kind of sparked up, uh, through all these other discussions we've had on this podcast and, uh, I'd like to have your, uh, opinion about some of the things that you've done to cultivate that personal awareness. Yeah, and I'm sure everyone has their own methodology that works well for them.

For me, um, it's, it's been my desire to learn who I am and my position on the planet, what my gifts are, you know, what my weaknesses are, um, being truthful to myself about those things. So I can, I can develop the things that I'm weak in and even in solidified, magnify and be able to give back the things that I'm really good at. And I think that's so important for base, especially because you don't get a second chance when you make a big mistake in base jumping.

So oftentimes it just ends in fatality or getting really injured. Um, so, so it's really important to, to know yourself, to know where, where your limits are. To know, like for instance, I, I I'm an okay wingsuit pilot. I'm not great. And I probably never will be and that's and I know that so any wingsuit jumping I do is in a very much more open margin than my friends are that are, you know, shredding proxy lines and whatever. That's something I'll probably never get into.

And I, you know, I have a lot of healthy respect for wingsuiting as well, because I've been around the sport for a while. And most of my friends are dead because of wingsuits. You know, that's most of the people I've lost. It's because they're a proxy flying. So I, I, I do have a certain amount of fear around wingsuiting for myself and knowing that, you know, man, these guys were way better than I am and they died. And, and, you know, what chance then do I have?

So I'm very, when I, when I'm in the wingsuit environment, I'm like, you, I'm like, it's funny cause I bring, you know, you guys, I bring these. These bad ass wing suiters to urban environment. And I watched them just like shit the bed, you know? And I'm like, what a hundred meters. Are you serious? It's so, it's so funny to see how he take you, take you. Person out of their element, you know, um, how much that changes. So I really kind of realized this is the thing I love.

This is what I'm good at. This is what I can give back. You know, or I don't want, I don't want the objects to die. Can a wing shooting such a prevalent thing now that everyone just sees that on YouTube and like, okay, I'm going to get to that point. What do I need to do the fastest? Route to get to that place, like tell me how to do it. And so the four objects are kind of being lost in my opinion. Like there's still a lot of slider down jumpers, but it's just not so mainstream anymore.

And people kind of just bypass it, do it to get to the place where they want to wingsuit, you know, and I really, I think it's. I, I love the old, I, I love how base jumping started, how, you know, it's whole history. And I, you know, we're, we, we, we got into the sport young enough that I, we know those guys still, you know, we know the guys that like base three or whatever, like, you know, I, I met Jean Bon Gene Bonis and she signed my, my log book and talked to her.

And so, you know, I I, I really hope that, that that stays within the base community, that, that those doesn't get lost. You know, I, for me, jumping new objects is, Is my favorite, you know, I rarely go back and jump the same object twice if it's a really good one. I will. Let's circle back to my question for a second. I love everything you're saying here, but I'd like to keep it on track. The one of the things you mentioned earlier, too, was how you have walked down or hike down or.

Yeah, climb down buildings, more buildings than you've actually jumped. And I think you sort of alluded to, uh, your use of intuition. And I think that that's something that's pretty interesting. Cause for me, I don't actually have my head wrapped around it. You know, sometimes I just have a bad feeling. And I go with that. I'll usually have like this, uh, you know, three flags or strikes rule where if three things that make me feel uneasy happen, it's just, there's no question about it.

The whole mission is being canceled. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your, your personal intuition and your relationship with it? That's something I developed, um, largely outside of base jumping because I, I, I'm into spirituality and I'm a, I meditate every day. Um, I, I, I believe in like connection to myself. You know, when you're out based, I mean, no one's there to protect you except for yourself.

If you've got a good friend there that might, you know, do a good check on you and say, Hey, man, like, Yeah, like your, your, your bridal's, you know, hanging out or your BOC or whatever, stuff like that. But, you know, for, for the most part, it's your responsibility to take care of yourself in the base environment. You know, that's what I like about it as well. It's radical self reliance, you know, and I, and I, that's something that I've.

I've learned to develop through my, my years on this planet is, you know, know thyself, you know, know what my limitations are, know the difference between fear and then intuition, because that can get mixed up. Sometimes, sometimes you're just getting scared and you think that's a gut feeling and it's not really a gut feeling, or sometimes you're having a gut feeling and you're crediting in that to being fear and you're bypassing it, not listening to it.

So that's a tricky one, you know, because fear is such a powerful emotion. So learning how to discern. With yourself, what's, when, when actual gut feeling is, your intuition is firing and when you're just having normal and natural fear around the jump. Do you have a process for that? I do a lot of, I do, I do, you know, I, I visualize, I do a lot of visualization for jumping. I think it's really important. Um, before I do a jump, I basically meditate on it.

And I, I, and that's an E that's a way of saying I close my eyes and I breathe deeply and I, and I imagine the whole flow state and I, and I actually, in my mind, I visualize the whole jump process from beginning to end, whether it be, you know, sneaking into a building or jumping off a cliff, uh, I visualize everything around it. And I put intention into it, so I'm setting it out. I'm setting the vibration before I'm jumping in my mind's eye.

And at that, that, that manifests around when you do something, it's very different when you set intention in your life. That's something I do in a daily practice. Anyway, when I meditate in the morning is I set my intention for the day. And I set my intention for what I want to happen. You know, so I'm putting it out there. I'm setting like a, an energetic pathway for, for, for these things to happen with less effort and that I apply that to base something very much.

So before I do a jump, I visualize exactly what it's going to be like. I visualize everything working out the way it's supposed to, where I'm going to land and, and, you know, building a mental map in my mind already before it happens. Um, and then obviously I'm also building, um, ideas for, uh, Outcomes that are not desirable too. So if I have off headings, what am I gonna do? Where am I gonna land? What are my alternate LZs?

It's, it's always building this very intricate, detailed mental map in my mind. And I, and I, the reason I apply that into jumping is because I've noticed that it makes a huge difference in my life when I've applied it through meditation. Um, through through my intentions, when I sit down in the morning to really kind of magnify my experience and to set pathways that are that are beneficial for me for the rest of the day. And I, and I do think that's, it's really paid off for me.

Every time I've done that. And I've, I've, I've, I've fallen out of practice before, and I've seen the difference. And so that's, that's something that I think is a very powerful tool is learning how to use your, your, your consciousness to set something in motion that you, you know, and in a desirable way, not focusing on the fears around the experience, but focusing on like the positive outcome. And then does that allow you to differentiate between, uh, fear and other emotions that could be.

Yeah. Because you're, because you've done so much work in your mind that your, your, your logic is clear. And when your logic is clear, then you can tell the difference between your fear and your, and your intuition. When you, when you basically, you've, you've, you've taken all of the, all the possibilities of unexpectedness out of the equation and you, then you're able to discern the difference much easier because there's no, there's no lack of trust in what you.

What you've built in your mind. So that's, that's, uh, that takes away a lot of the guesswork that way. Are you scared of anything while you're jumping? What are, or like, maybe I can ask this a different way. Cause we have this one written down. Are you scared of dying? Yeah. Yeah, sure. We want to know the answer to that. Sure. We also want to know what else you assign your fear to. I mean, there's a physiological fear of dying that happens in your body when you're in a place of danger.

That's normal. That's probably never going to go away from me. And it's healthy. I think, um, in my mind, in my contemplative mind, am I scared of dying? No. And I've I've had near death experiences. I've done ayahuasca in the jungle in the Amazon, and I've had I've left my body before and seen what it's like after death. And I've had kind of ego deaths in the spiritual realm as well. Um, I've been around enough death to understand it. Um, so no, in the big picture, am I scared of dying?

I'm not scared of dying. Um, I, I, I would like to feel a sense of completion in my life before I die. And that Probably, you know, who knows if that will ever happen or not. And I think that's a big question. Everyone should ask themselves is if I die today, am I happy with what I've done? Do I feel complete? Have I, have I, have I, can I take my last breath and be satisfied and, and leave this body in peace? And I think that's something that I think about a lot.

Um, so that it, so what, so when it comes, cause who knows when it's going to come, it could, you know, with us, we could just survive base jumping this whole time and end up just dying, you know, crossing the street one day, you know, that that's a possibility as well.

So I always try to wake up and be thankful for what I've done and what I've accomplished so far and not feel like a stress to be, you know, have all these other goals that I have set out ahead of myself to be completed or not to be happy. So, in that respect, I, I, I'm not scared of dying. Um, I, I feel very privileged and very lucky. To live the life we've got to live so far and are such a strong community.

And based on being, you know, you guys are, it's my family, you know, it's, it's, I could talk to low lives in France and I could go and stay at his house one day and, you know, go and he'd show me, show me exit points and whatever. And then we'd all do do that for each other from across the world. People we haven't seen in years. And I, the, the sense of community there with base jumping has been such a privilege to be a part of something that I'm very honored to be, to be, to be around.

Um, and so for me, that's, that's become the forefront of my experience and basis, you know, this, this understanding of life and death and, and, and of individuality and expression and, um, and choices for all of us, personal choices that can actually lead to death and respecting that in each of us, um, understanding that the impermanence of everything, you know, and that's, that's a big. Big part of it. I'm a big Buddhist in that sense.

You know, I've done 10 day Vipassana meditations and sat in silence and, and understood that this, this thing, everything arises to pass away arises to pass away. So that's the natural progression of nature. That's, that's, that's how it works in this plane of existence that we're on. And I really apply that to my philosophy on jumping as well. So, yeah, I, I. It's my physiological reaction to fear is always going to be there, but in my mind and in my heart, I'm not scared of dying.

No, do you think that your strength of the strength of your visualization through jumping has been augmented through your use of psychedelics? Absolutely. Yeah, that's been a big tool for me. Plant medicine. Um, I was introduced to it as a teenager with psilocybin with mushrooms, and that really progressed my consciousness into something that I'd already believed was happening. I kind of always thought there was more to reality than I was being taught.

Um, and I, and I pursued that in many of my studies, um, and fields of interest. And then, and the psychedelics really turbo boosted that idea and gave me much more insight into consciousness and awareness. Um, you know, multi, multi dimensional experiences that are outside of the time and space that we're presented with on a daily basis. So, and that really became something that, um, helped me so much in my life.

And, and I, you know, I've had friends that are, that are ex military that have real serious PTSD.

And major trauma in their mind and psychedelics have been a massive help to them through psilocybin, ayahuasca, many of these different plant medicines that really, really benefit the mind, you know, because we, you go to a hospital to get your body fixed, but there's, there's nowhere to get your mind fixed, you know, and, and, and psychology has a kind of attempt to it, you know, And therapy and counseling and all of that kind of stuff, but plant medicine really

helps to rewire and heal the brain of damage that it has from trauma and from experiences in life that, uh, that, uh, have a negative connotation on it. So. Um, that, that has become something that I've definitely applied to. Uh, not only, you know, my life outside of Bei jumping, but also within Bei jumping as well. I'm a big, big advocate for, you know, I, I, I, my dad and dad's, dad's, dad's all alcoholics. You know, I'm Scottish lineage and, uh, it's, I I had to quit drinking. For me.

It was ev I was, uh, something I had no control of. I couldn't just be a casual drinker and have one drink. It would be like, 10 drinks every time. And so I used, I actually microdosed on psilocybin for, for a month to quit drinking and it had profound effects and it, and it worked, you know, so, and so did my girlfriend and I had a lot of other friends that have used it for, um, to getting off medication, for instance, uh, to, you know, help with antidepressant medication, get off that.

So there, there's a lot of power in plant medicine that it's, and it's a big renaissance right now in the world that's happening. That's coming out now in much, much more prevalent. Society and becoming much more mainstream. So I'm actually really looking forward to that, uh, that experience.

So something I want to get into actually is, is being able to, to help be a part of a clinic where you can treat people with PTSD and depression and problems like that with, with a plan, a facilitator or something exactly. Yeah. And my, and my girlfriend's a nurse and she wants to become a nurse practitioner so that we can actually start our own clinic one day. Well, can you help our community for a second?

And give us some advice on psychedelics because I've seen it, uh, you know, produce incredible benefits. I've also seen it, uh, Rabbit hole people into some pretty dark places for a long time. Yeah, I mean, it's all about your intention, how you're using it. Right? I mean, that's, that's the same. I think with everything, especially when you're using a powerful tool like that, and that's, that's the way I see it. You know, psychedelics, space jumping for me is the same.

It's all, it's all medicine, right? It's all, it's a, it's a powerful tool that you can use. To help you or you can abuse it as well. So, you know, you, you can use a really powerful tool as equally as you can use it for really good benefit. So I, you know, learning basically what is your intention is just to party and just to get fucked up and have fun. You know, that's, that's one way of using those things.

Uh, another way of using them is, you know, in a ceremonial form out in nature with your friends and setting intentions for what you want to get out of the medicine and that way it becomes a powerful ally that can really help you. And that's the same with base jumping. I, in my first years of jumping, I abused that very much. So it's a very powerful tool that I just abused and used as a drug. And eventually I, I came to, to understand and change my relationship with jumping into a medicine.

It's just something that I use when I, when I need it to. To help me benefit and help me grow and help me become a better version of myself instead of just, uh, to get a fix. And I think that's, that's, that's, that applies to psychedelics and to chomping. Actually, I think we can talk about both of these experiences interchangeably, like, uh, both extremely potent and extremely dangerous if handled incorrectly.

Um, can you talk a little bit more about, um, you know, these potent experiences and, uh, how maybe you titrate or, um, regulate the, the dosage in a way, like, uh, when do you know it's not your, your abusing base? When do you know? It's like maybe time to, you know, go for a walk or definitely work on a puzzle or, you know, chill out a little bit because I think that lots of trial and error, lots of trial and error.

Um, yeah, that's, that's definitely a big part of his experience, you know, because you can lie to yourself a bunch of times and say, Oh, I'm just using this because I need this right now. But really, you're just. You know, being an addict, right? So, um, that's something I have an addictive personality type.

I think a lot of people in the base on the community do, and that's something you have to learn how to manage, you know, and I, and I, so it took me many years, honestly, of, of jumping to get to a place where I didn't abuse it or I was using it for, for, for. Positive reasons. Um, and that, that really comes down to just being on, you know, knowing yourself again, being honest with yourself, you know, saying what, what, what, what is the intention behind this right now?

Is it just because I want to get high because I want to have this powerful experience to kind of like distract myself from what's going on in my life right now? Or do I want to use this to kind of turbo boost my experience to face my problems and to get over some of my, uh, you know, Um, obstacles and things like that. You know, what is your intention? I think that's such an important question to ask all the time.

Um, not just with these potent experiences, they just amplify things in a more powerful way than other things do. And so I think that's very, very key to kind of always kind of check in with yourself and see where you're at. And that's, that's, that's the best way to do it. Cause no one else is going to know better than you are. And so it's just all about being honest with yourself.

Speaking of, uh, somebody knowing better than you, I think we've touched on both, uh, relationships and, uh, you putting the sport down and I'd love to, uh, talk about your marriage and your wife, um, you know, proposing that she knew better than you about when to put the Base jumping down and how that all played out. Yeah, that was a tricky situation, man. Um, you know, uh, that was my ex wife and that was, I quit jumping for two and a half years or so.

Um, and you know, basically she got into the sport was a skydiver. I met her skydiving and I told her I was a base jumper and I said, this is, you know, I was, that's something I always just put out there right away when I meet someone new, like, Hey, like. This is what I do. It's I'm asking a lot and I know that.

And that that's a, you know, I think that's something that we all as jumpers need to remember is we are asking a lot from our partners when they are non jumpers, especially, and you're saying, Hey, like I, I am a, I'm a base jumper and I'm, I'm, I'm requiring a. More from you than normal because you have to be okay with the fact that I'm doing this dangerous activity. She was at the time and she thought she knew what she was getting herself into.

And then, of course, that was right before 2015 and 2016 when. All my friends died, like, like 30 of my closest friends died and she knew them all. She had met them all. She'd hung out with them. And then she just watching my friends drop off like flies. And she's like, you guys are idiots. Like, why would you do something like this? You know, like, like it clearly doesn't, the numbers don't add up.

You know, she saw like the worst two years of my whole base jumping experience was her introduction to the world. So, you know, it really, really scared her. And I, and I, and I had to, you know, so I had to step back. She, she basically gave me an ultimatum and said, look, I. I'm not okay with this anymore. Like either you choose me or you choose jumping, but I can't, you can't do both at this point.

Um, so, you know, initially it was pretty resentful about it and upset about it, but I realized that, you know, I could, I could, I could go back to base jumping anytime. I can't go back to her. So I said, you know, okay, I'll give it a shot. And I did, I really gave it a. Good effort, man. I really started just focusing on a bunch of other different stuff. Um, but I, I still thought about it all the time.

I really miss my friends and the community and the travel and, you know, all the adventures and everything. That's a big part of my soul. It's a big part of what I need, uh, as an individual. So, so, you know, over time it started to wear on me and we had our own other issues that every marriage does, you know, every relationship has to deal with and very different personality types. Um, and in the end, you know, it was, it was. You know, it, it got in the way. Honestly, it did.

I, I, it was a big part of me that was missing and also because someone else told me I couldn't, you know, and I have that kind of rebellious nature anyway. I'm like, well, if you're going to tell me I can't, I really want to do it now. Um, and so in the, in the end it got down to me, you know, like sneaking base jumps and stuff. And like, I was like, oh, this is ridiculous. Like, you know how she's like, you're, you're cheating on me. I'm like, I'm just watching jumping.

Wow. So, you know, we had to, we had to, that was a, that was a big part of our closure and we were still friends and everything like that. It was, we just grew apart that way. And I was really honestly glad to get jumping back into my life again. But, um, now, you know, thankfully to that experience, I, I don't have the same addiction to, to jumping anymore. It really taught me how to.

grow outside of base jumping, how to find myself outside of that powerful experience in normal daily activities. So now if I go a month without jumping, it's no big deal. I don't even think about it. Right. But, but before it was like a necessity that I had to jump at least a few times a week and that was kind of thing. So now, now I really.

feel a different relationship with patient being, and probably that's a big part of, due to that experience with her and, um, and having to, you know, cut ties that way. And I, I know I, and I, I don't, I actually really respect her and what and her decision. And I understand it. I totally understand why she came to that conclusion afterwards. She had to go back on her word of being okay with it because, you know, she, she got thrown into a, into a experience that was.

Was not what she was expecting. And honestly, neither was I, that was a very hard time for me as well. I think for a lot of us, I had a lot of self doubt around jumping then. And, and I was questioning if I should continue, um, just because I had so much heartache and loss. I had really, you know, it's one thing when you, you know, know someone from the community, from friends and that their crew has lost someone. And, but you know, when your crew and your, your.

Your people, your brothers and sisters are just dying left and right around you. It gets pretty heavy, man. This gets, you know, really, I had to really look deep inside myself to decide if I was going to continue even without her, uh, input there. So, and that, that's, I grew a lot from that experience. It took me a long time to heal from that experience as well, to, uh, learn how to deal with it.

The sacrifices that you eventually reconciled because, you know, man, losing that many friends, uh, definitely called base jumping in a question in my mind. Uh, so where did you land on, uh, on those sacrifices? Yeah. Um, in the end, you know, it's for me, my calculations, and this is the way I look at many other things is the, is the, not just the risk. And reward it's scale, but it's always a kind of a scale, right?

So if you're in a relationship that has some negative things to it, like, because everything's, you know, is polarized, right? So sometimes as long as the situation, the benefits outweigh the negatives for me, then I'm, then I'm in, right? And so that's kind of what I looked at with Bay shopping is to do the benefits outweigh the negative possibilities in the situation.

Of doing that activity, and that's, and it took me some time to get to the point where I felt like the scales were in the right favor again for a while. It wasn't during that experience in my life. I, the scales were tips where I felt like the benefits weren't outweighing the, the, uh, consequences. And so, uh, I left it and I left it for a while until the point where I could understand and remember. Um, how fleeting this life is anyway, like we're all going to die, man.

That's guaranteed, you know, like we're all leaving this body at some point. Do I, do I want to live a life of fear and regulation and kind of putting myself in boxes to get some extra years out of it? And does that mean that I lived a better life because I lived 10 years longer?

Or, or do I want to enrich my life with the passions that I, that I, that I want to be in, you know, and I think, you know, sometimes I wish I just loved crocheting or something, you know, or, or, you know, going to the park and. Feeding birds or whatever, something easy and simple. If that was my passion, that'd be awesome. But it's not, you know, my passion is these extreme sports and putting myself out and the fringe of activities in the world, that's something that I'm, I'm attracted to.

And so I have to embrace that and I have to understand that. And I approached, I approached these, these activities with a lot of reverence and a lot of gratitude and, and, you know, and acceptance of your mortality.

It's such a nice thing when you just accept it, like you accept you're going to die and it doesn't matter when, like, live your life, live it to the fullest, give everything you can and accept the consequences and just be grateful and be happy that you were there to do it in the first place. So I, that's, that's the way I approach all of this stuff. Now that's when I was able to come to a place of harmony and balance with, with.

With all of the trauma and negativity that I've experienced in base as well, I was able to sit back and be thankful for it. And in the end, my dead friends have taught me more than some of my life friends, you know, because of what I had to go through with losing them and the grief around that and learn really digging deep within my soul to, to make amends and to come to peace with these things. So I'm very grateful in the end for that experience. So, yeah.

That's, that's kind of the full circle. Right. And I think that's the full circle in general. It's like when you, when you get into a skill set and you develop your skills and you become a master at it, the full circle is giving back. Right? It's like you, you, you progress, you start out and you, you build your, your skill assets and your data and your, in my mind, you're, you complete Thank you. You complete that skill set when you're, when you're giving it back.

You know, so I did tandem skydiving for 15 years. I did 15, 000 tandems or something like that. And people are always like, how did you stay in the field for that long? And be stuck and be stoked still. And it's because of that, because I get to give it back. I get to take someone out of the public with no. experience at all in the sky, strap them to the front of me and throw them out of a plane.

And it's such a powerful time, like frame of you, you can really touch a stranger's life in a very powerful way with the tandem skydive. And that was, that was my way of being able to give back my passion and in this, in the sport, you know, and introducing people to parachutes and to the freedom that they experienced. So to be able to overcome their fears. And so it's kind of really. Face it head on, like, like in that kind of environment.

And so that, that, that's, I think something that I want to do in the base world as well, you know, I want to be able to, to give back all of this information and, and, you know, years and years over a decade of, of dedication to urban jumping, I actually, I've me and Scotty, Bob, and we've. We've talked about this and we're, we're, we're even thinking of developing an urban jumping school. Um, so, so that people can, cause you know, mentorship is kind of lost, man. It's, it's, it's died.

Like people don't do it really anymore. Now it's just, you know, classes for, you know, your first jump course at a bridge and then you're jumping off a cliff and the more advanced courses. And then you're going to some terminal courses and you're. The wingsuit courses. And there's all these different categories of courses now. And there's not really mentorship anymore for someone to kind of take you along and show you the ropes. And so I'm like, well, why not?

You know, why not make it, you know, get it out there people, because it's still only going to attract a small amount of people, you know, it's not going to be like some mainstream thing ever, like urban, just never going to be that, but I w I do feel, you know, why not, why not take two people on in the weekend and give them a three day course and, and, you know, really show them like.

The depth and the field of my knowledge of what I've really learned through, through my experience of all this time in the urban environment. So that, so that, that information is cause that makes it safer. It makes it, you know, that way, it's a way for me to ensure that my legacy doesn't die, you know, that I, that, that, that, that urban doesn't die.

That the four objects don't die, you know, with our generation, because, you know, two generations down and base jumping, it could just be wingsuit mountain flying and that's all, that's all it becomes, you know, it could, it could happen that way. I want to make sure that doesn't die when we, when we leave the sport, you know, we're just too old to do it anymore.

I want to be able to, to project that out into the future to make sure there's still some gangster rebel motherfuckers out there jumping some stuff in the city, you know, that like are just silently with their hand up in the air with the middle finger, you know, and just, and just doing their thing to kind of like. Push back a little bit against, against the norms and be out there on the fringe. You know, that, that's, that, that, that's the stuff I hope to project out into the future.

So that's, is that the legacy that you'd like to leave behind? If someone were to be able to look at your career thus far, like the, the sum total of it. Definitely. Is, yeah, what's the, what's the message that you'd like to them to leave with having seen all of what you've done? Um, definitely, you know, anyone that's interested in urban that wants to learn about it and, and, and not have to go through all the trial and error that I had to go through.

I would love to be able to pass that information on. So that's, that's really what I'm developing right now. Um, you know, I'm 45, I'm sure I'll be jumping for as long as I can, but, you know, there's, there's limited windows still there for me on how long that's going to be. I'm going to be pushing as hard as I am right now.

And so I want to be able to pass that the torch, you know, sort of speak to onto the future generations, the gangster kids that are coming out now that I've been really impressed with, by the way, some of these guys coming up into the urban now, I'm like, wow, like it's, they're, they're, they're starting from a different level than we're started at, you know, and I watched, so I'd like to just be able to just pass that information on to, to people that are interested in doing it and doing it in

a smart and safe way, in a way that's repeatable in a way that's respectful. You know, the morals and ethics behind urban is constantly changing and evolving and staying on top of that, being aware of all of that. Um, and just kind of being in the game, you know, like making an urban handbook. Basically, it says, Hey, like, this is, this is what you guys can do. This is what I've learned from my experience and then actually doing.

Onsite work with people, you know, taking them to, to objects and teaching them how to, how to observe everything and to build this mental maps and to kind of really become an independent urban jumper where they can go out and start, because there's no shortage of buildings, man, let me put it that way. Okay. people get stressed out and they're like, oh yeah, well if you, you know, get more jumpers and you know, the objects are gonna get burned, and no they are not. I guarantee it.

Dude, I've been in this thing for a long time. Like everyone wants to be a tourist in the urban thing and come and jump and do they got their. building and then they go on, okay. They don't stick, they don't stick around as we get a couple of guys that stick around, they get super jacked on it. And then want to do that, like, like let it, let it develop, let it, let it progress, let it grow into something that it can be like, I honestly, I rarely go back to the same building and jump it.

I'm just so interested in the next one and the next one, the next one. And there's no shortage, man. I'm in LA and I probably jumped like in LA. I probably jumped like 40 buildings now, dude. And there's, there's way, way more projects I have in my, in my. You know, manual right now, my handbook that I'm ready to go on. Same in San Diego, same in every city you go to.

There's just an endless field and just, you know, starting with the low hanging fruit, and then you work your way up to the more complex problems as you develop your skillset, as you get better. And then, you know, you're always, you're always in that place of learning that way. You're not, you're not, not just at a dead end anymore. It's always more to, to figure out, to learn, to. Kind of grow as you go along, depending on the difficulty of the, of the project.

So that's, that's really what I'd like to kind of pass the torch on to people. So they have that stoked forever. I'm stoked. I'm so stoked to just jump building still. Like I just obsess and think about it all the time. I've got laundry lists of notes and. You know, pictures. And if you look at my phone, it's just pictures of buildings. So like, what is this guy like obsessed with architecture or something?

You know, I'm like, no, I just, this is all stuff that I'm building for myself, you know, and some of the projects I, well, it'll, it goes off from two years later, I get to it, you know? So anyway, it's been great talking to you guys. Well, Jamie, I think that this, uh, this conversation has been a success in showing what an interesting paradox you are of spirituality and. Punk rock. Uh, I really enjoy this. Hard act to follow. Sorry, girlfriends.

You know, I never, most of us wouldn't, uh, wouldn't put spiritual path in You know, climbing through buildings and, and, and all of the activities you've been involved with. And, uh, it's always a pleasure to, uh, to be proven wrong or, or question the way, uh, I've thought about things in the past. So, uh, appreciate that. And I think we could go on with this conversation for hours and hours, but we're going to wrap it up here. And, uh, so where can people find you?

Where can people reach out and learn more about what it is you're doing? So, I mean, obviously on social media, Facebook, Instagram, that kind of stuff right now, I'm in the process, like I said, of probably developing a program. So if people are interested, you can hit me up on social media, um, and just message me and say that you're interested in learning urban. And we're actually putting together something pretty special and awesome.

Um, and a lot of people that will go through first jump courses through Scotty and Julia's school. They can also reach out if they're to the point where they want to start learning Looking at their first building and they can find me afterwards and after they've done some more advanced courses, they can, or they can come and do an urban school with me. So that is something that is, uh, in the process of, of being developed and, um, I'm very excited about.

And so, yeah, definitely you can find me that way. And, uh, um, uh, shortly thereafter, I'm, we will have, you know, a website and things like that coming on in the future, but, great. And as, as that begins to materialize, uh, can we have you come back on and share some of your experiences? Oh, I'd love to. Yeah. This is going to be a whole new ball game. Like, okay guys, like, yeah, you got to sign this waiver just so you know, you can get arrested and you might die.

I'd love to see the face on the lawyer. You asked to write up that waiver. Well, until then, uh, thanks for joining us. Uh, this has been the man, the myth, the legend, the ginger ninja. I appreciate it boys. Good to chat with you. Thanks for joining us for another episode. If you have any thoughts to share with us, we'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Instagram at exitpoint. podcast with our email addresses in the episode descriptions.

Big shout out to Mark Stockwell, our sound mixer and co producer for being part of this project. Tune in next time or come find us on the exit point.