Moab Joe. Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
And thanks for having me in your
home. It's a pleasure, brother.
Yeah. It's beautiful out here in Moab right now.
Yeah, the, uh, the spring winds are picking up as we speak.
Yeah. I hear that you had some pretty high winds for your, uh, tough Turkey boogie that just concluded, right?
We definitely did. We definitely did. Um, it's kind of a custom right here in the spring to have a little bit higher winds, but you know, even, uh, Shit. Even last October, we found some high winds too. So it's really just a, you never know what you're going to get out of here. You just got to come out and have a good time and get after it.
Now as a lead into the first question, I've got to have you fill us in. How big is Moab as a town?
I believe it's around 5, 000 people.
And we've got a pretty small drop zone out here. It's very small. So would you say it's accurate that most people know you through social media or the internet?
Um, yeah, I mean, I guess so throughout the world if I haven't met them in person or jumped with them. Um, yeah.
And what's that like when, you know, people come up to you and, you know, they know you already and your face and some of the stuff that you've done and you don't even know their name.
Uh, I mean, it's cool, you know, I mean, it's, uh, it's, I mean, I put a lot of effort into putting stuff on the internet. So yeah, at the end of the day, it's definitely, um, it's a humbling experience, but it's rad, I guess, you know, yeah, why not?
Let me ask you this. Does putting yourself in the public eye have an effect on the reward mechanism for you? Like, for instance, does being, uh, an internet personality drive some of your motivation to base jump or to push it?
No, I mean, I think it's quite the opposite at the end of the day. It's really just the stuff I was doing and, um, I started posting and I put the stuff out there. And, um, yeah, I think it was kind of an inverse relationship as to the question. Inverse relationship? Yeah.
Can you explain that?
I mean, it's just what I was doing and it just so happened that, um, you know, it came to a level now that, um, some people have seen it and come to me and they're like, man, I appreciate your videos. Um, it's inspiring. And then I go, I appreciate you giving me that comment. I'll keep posting the stuff I'm out there doing.
Okay. Okay. Um, how about, uh, the observer effect? I know that you've got a statement on that and some thoughts on the observer effect and how that affects people's motivation, or at least how they engage in base jumping. Can you get into that for a second?
Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, it's definitely, it's impossible. To have someone observing you and not have it affect the outcome, right? Um, if you're out there solo by yourself, um, shit, even a GoPro could be part of an observer effect, right? How many times have we seen people on an exit and they're concerned about their GoPro and their leg straps are off or, I mean, that's the intense one Dukes found. Right. But, uh, yeah.
Um, I mean, someone just told me a story about the guy in Thailand that was so fixated on his GoPro that he routed his rattling correctly and went in. Right. Um, so I think the observer effect can even extend beyond, um, just people being around you, but definitely people being around you will affect your decision making. Um, and yeah, I remember on your podcast, Steph Davis said a thing about like the noise that gets created. People don't have to say anything, right?
But you got 10 people and like their eyes are on you, like can create a different mental space for you. Um, so yeah, I think it's, uh, Pretty intense in the base environment. The observer effects real.
So if somebody is planning on making, uh, some kind of media post or, you know, some kind of project out of what they're doing, could that not to like fit into the observer effect?
Absolutely. Yeah.
Okay. So it's really just how about like how you're thinking about the jump, right? Like if you have on your mind primarily that. This is going to be something that is for public consumption, then you in effect are bringing all those people along with you to observe the jump. No.
Yeah.
Okay. So then, like, back to the first question, how do you avoid that? Like, infiltrating your motivation or somehow affecting the way that you're jumping?
I mean, the sheer consequences. Um, at the end of the day, it's, uh, It's really nice to capture footage. Um, should I remember the last time we talked, kind of talked about Carl Banish a bit, right. And how the godfather of base was all about like, we don't do it unless we get it on video and the lighting's right. Right. Um, so while that can be a motivation, I think it's really important because you're, you're never going to live in a world where we don't have these things.
So the key is that you're focusing on. Why you're doing it, right? Like, why do you, why do you need to jump off this cliff? Why do you need to push your personal line? Um, is it because the drone pilots there that day is, is that why you have to jump this line? Because it's going to look good on film and the lighting's right. I mean, if those are your only reasons, then you definitely shouldn't do it.
But if it just so happens that, you know, the production team's there or whatever the observer is in quotes, um, cause we just discussed a bunch of examples. You gotta, you gotta go within and truly. Ask yourself, like, do I want to step off this cliff today? Do I, am I willing to accept the consequences if, um, you know, I messed this up?
And speaking of going within, um, we talked in a previous chat about ego and base jumping and you had a really kind of, you know, pretty, uh, straight line. Um, explanation of what role ego plays in your jumping. Can you, uh, get into that a little bit?
No, man. Yeah. We went pretty deep that day. Um, yeah, I mean, I mean some help to remember exactly what I said, but, uh, yeah, it's, um, I mean, no one, we all have an ego without it. Like you wouldn't be yourself. Right. I mean, Matt Moening said there's no skydiver out there with an ego less than a four, right?
Right.
And I
mean, that's a reasonable statement. Like, if you have zero ego, then you literally don't have any concept of yourself. And so like it, it would be impossible to be. Excellent at anything. You'd just be devoid of, of excellence across the board. You'd, you'd almost cease to exist personally.
Yeah. Right. And I mean, if you don't, if you don't think you can do something or, you know, think you can achieve something or think highly of yourself. Then you're probably not going to continue to push your personal best all the time, right? And keep pushing your own line, right? No matter you're the very, no matter whether you're the very best or the very worst at something, the fight for all of us is exactly the same. We all just want to get a little bit better.
And whatever it is we're doing. Right.
And so if we agree that, uh, ego is required somewhat so that we have a sense of what we can and can't do, because in base jumping, if you don't have that, then it's very easy to end up just dead, um, what role does ego play or how do you temper your ego? Within, you know, the cutting edge stuff that you're doing so that you've, you know, stay on the alive side of the line.
Um, yeah, I mean, just at the end of the day, having a honest and accurate self assessment of your abilities, which is constantly changing. Right. Um, yeah, I mean, everyone has ups and downs, right? There's going to be days where, um, You know, your ego is hitting harder than it should. And on those days, you know, you got to recognize that and hopefully back off a little bit or not, uh, not get bit too hard. And then, yeah.
Or let me put it to you another way. You've said in the past that humility is kind of a moral muscle. How do you train that muscle?
I mean, like anything else, man, just active practice, right?
So what is practicing being humble look like because like if somebody were to watch your videos They would say like they might say that this is anything but humble Like I mean you are doing some pretty epic stuff flying some lines that you know require aggressive precise Some might even say arrogant, you know, moves in order to accomplish because they are so like on the edge.
Yeah. I mean, everyone's, everyone's abilities are their own. Right. Um, so, I mean, there's levels to every game at the end of the day. I think it was like, my progression was seen as radical and fast, but you know, I, I did everything people told me to do, like, and then way more, like when I went to Europe and I showed up there and I started wingsuit base jumping, I had like a thousand wingsuit skydives and almost 500 slider off base jumps.
And even like, you know, 1500 or not even sure how many, maybe 2000 skydives or something like that. And. Everyone out there is telling me how, like, Oh, wingsuiting kills, wingsuiting kills, wingsuiting kills. And in my mind, you know, I'm like, Well, the only thing I really know how to do is wingsuit. Like, I really can hardly fly a two piece, And I've never flown a One piece, so I'm gonna fly this wingsuit and that's what makes sense to me
So, uh, getting into some personal stuff, why did you get into base jumping in the first place?
Um, yeah, like the easy answer is, uh, I think parachutes called me because, uh, I mean, effectively what I say is like parachutes saved my life.
Really? Yeah. How did parachutes save your life? Um, I don't know how deep to dig into this right now. How much time we got? Yeah. We got plenty. We're rolling.
Um, yeah, effectively around 21. I was definitely getting pretty confused. Like I was doing good. I had probably like a 3. 0 GPA in college and I was just kind of following the cookie cutter lifestyle of you go to school and should get a finance degree and you major in business and
white picket fence. Yeah. Why have kids? But why,
you know, uh, why, why, why? Well, that's because what you do is this, so you can make a bunch of money and you can be successful and yeah, you can pay for all this, you know, whatever. This life that everyone has that obviously you want because look like you got to be like this. Yeah. Do you opt into the matrix? Yeah. Um, I think it just kind of, uh, I took some time off to, uh, cause I joined the climbing club and, you know, I was kind of finding that as a passion.
I like, I don't know, I learned how to, I learned how to camp at 19. Right. Um, He was never really like an outdoorsy guy, but I could just feel like I was getting really drawn to the outdoors and climbing. So I just bailed for like six months and went and did that. And I just remember being, uh, I remember knowing that I was having to go back to school and I was just like dreading it. Like I was so depressed. Like it was. It was killing me.
I just wanted to be out there rock climbing and kind of doing my thing for a bit. Um, and yeah, I was just breaking my brain that I needed to go back to school. And I remember it was like driving through grand junction and I was like, I should be out here. I could feel it. I was like, I need to be out West. Like I need to be doing different stuff. Like this isn't the life for me, but I went back anyways and I like try to keep giving it a go. And it just went. It went so south.
I, uh, yeah, I just started getting into partying and doing drugs and honestly just lost it, you know? Um, yeah. Self destructive
path.
Yeah. You got it, dude. I just, I just snapped into, um, and I, I couldn't figure out why, you know, at the time, but looking back now, I realize it's just because I, I wasn't meant to be there, you know? And I didn't have the wherewithal to, Follow my heart at the time and just, you know, run away and actually go for it and just work in a ski town and figure it out. Right.
Cause no, one's going to absolutely no one, especially your mom or your family is going to tell you to go out there and risk it all, you know, like it makes sense. Like, why are they going to tell you to drop out of college and just go out West and see what happens by becoming a ski bum?
It doesn't really make sense, right? Right. And yet, like, you know, looking back on my own life and having similar thoughts, like if I were to give myself advice back then, I'd be like, sure, go try it. Like you can always take a semester off. You can always come back to this. Like, there's no rush to finish school right now. Like, why would you not like, you know, go do this? If you feel like returning is just going to be absolutely soul crushing. So, okay.
You decide to get on the self destructive train. What, how did that look? What, uh, what happened?
Oh, not pretty man. Um, yeah, I mean, ended up in the mental ward, you know. Oh, oh yeah. Um, got a pretty rough DUI, um, went to rehab, like did the whole shebang, which, uh, you know. Now, I'm pretty grateful for because, uh, yeah, definitely learned a lot in those, uh, in those rooms.
We're, are we talking like heavy user or would you ever have, you know, considered yourself an addict?
Um,
I mean,
I don't really dig the word addict and relapse. Um, I've definitely, I ran the 12 steps and did that stuff. Um, I didn't exactly totally feed into that because at the end of the day, it kind of Yeah, it's just a little intense for me. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I did three years like completely sober and That was rad. But like to this day, you know, I like to party. I like to drink beers So clearly that whole hierarchy Isn't exactly for me. I'm not against it. Um,
well, I mean, there are distinct differences. That's why I ask. Like, you know, there are people who are addicts and self admittedly and there are people that are heavy users and self admittedly.
Yeah. I mean, I think for me personally, I was just, I was just self medicating. I was so lost, you know? Um, I don't. You know, I don't really think I did to answer your question. Yes. Of course. I sat up there. I was like, hi, Joe, I'm an addict. You know, I did, I did the whole shebang, but if we're really thinking on a deeper level, like thinking 10 years later, right? Like, do I really believe that that was true? Honestly, not really.
Um, because at the end of the day, even when I went to rehab, I was like, all right, it's time to clean my life up. And I just quit everything. Like I didn't need to be, you know, uh, what, uh, it wasn't a compulsion. Um, what the fuck do they call that when, uh, when they put you in a detox and whatnot, right? Like.
Uh,
I never actually like detoxed and like had any of these like proper, um,
Oh, okay. No one like
observing you. Right.
Yep. Yep. Yep.
And they're stressed out. You're going to withdrawals, right. Withdrawal and die. Right. Cause like you drink too much alcohol and you literally stop cold Turkey. It's going to fucking kill you.
Right. You know, like a hell of a thing.
Yeah. And certain, uh, certain drugs are like that, right. Um, Xanax and heroin are a couple of the ones that can actually kill you. Everything else is like, Not really a big deal, right? You just stopped doing it, but in my,
okay, that's, I get what you're saying. That's a slight overgeneralization, but like, I hear you, I hear you.
You feel me? Yeah. You can just quit. Yeah.
They're like, let's just put a heavy caveat on that. Like where there are some other, there's some other things that are in the same category that like are, are also like habit forming and definitely will cause withdrawals
should, should state, uh, I am not a medical doctor nor a psychologist nor a, a drug professional, so take it with a grain of salt.
Okay. So, um, let me ask you this,
we knew we were going to get somewhere today. Huh? Yeah, definitely.
Um, what did you, what did you get out of drugs and alcohol? Like I'm hearing this, the narrative as, you know, you, you find this thing about yourself and ignore it. Then you get into like the soul crushing reality of, you know, being one of the quote unquote, normal folk, just trying to like, Work to live and that wasn't serving.
And so all of a sudden, you know, you get into the party scene and these drugs and alcohol, but like, I honestly want to know during that period, were you getting anything out of those drugs and alcohol?
Um, I mean, the people you surround yourself with quickly become your consciousness and your reality. That's interesting. Oh yeah. You, uh, you, you fall into a bad crowd, man. Um, you know, no, I think, uh, it's, it's death by a thousand cuts and you're, you got a really good one. It's three, five, nine, right? Yeah. It's just this incremental thing, right? And it's because I was so afraid to make this, you know, 180 degrees switch. Right. Even just 90 degree turn.
It just like, you know, one degree at a time over like whatever it was a year, just slowly, but surely started going. Maybe it was five degrees. Right. Yeah. But all of a sudden you're just in this place and you're like in this black hole and you're literally looking at yourself like, how did I, how did it get here? Like what? What is going on? Like, why do I hate myself? Like what the
fuck? Okay. So the answer to the question is no, like you didn't really get anything out of these things. They were just like, you know, kind of a, I don't know, unintentional road to the abyss.
Yeah. I mean, I'm at the end of the day now I've gotten a lot out of it because I can see, you know, what habits are not good and you know, there's something that's super dangerous, right? But at the time, um, You know, I thought I was getting something out of it, right? That's a self medicating. How about that? Like, but I just, I'm curious
on that like particular point, because like, I know in retrospect, you can easily say that it wasn't really serving your end goal, but during which, and you know, we've got a lot of friends that are, you know, in similar spots, it seems like, you know, they're getting a lot out of it. So like, you're on,
you're on pause, man. Like if you're, if you're really using drugs a lot, you're just on pause. Like you, you know, start smoking weed at 15, you stop at 25, you're going to fucking land at 15, you know, like if you're smoking weed every single day. And that's, I think, I can't remember who said that to me and I was like, that's pretty intense. But at the end of the day, I was like, I was like, you know, I could kind of actually get behind that. Like if you're just drinking every single day.
Like, you're pretty much going to just put your whole life on pause, right? Is that something
that you're proposing as like, uh, something that like kept you going during that period? Like, you know, having time out.
Yeah. I think I honestly, I just think I was like hurting so bad. And like I said, I didn't really, I mean, all this stuff is retrospective, right? Um, or, you know, hindsight is 20, 20, but at the time, you know, you're just like hurt and bored and you think it's all harmless. And you're just kind of rolling around with these cats or this, that, and the other. And yeah, it just gets bad.
Well, moving out from the bad, when did you hit rock bottom or realize that? And. Like, what was the motivation to get out of the abyss?
Um, I honestly, I looked at, I looked at my mom one day and this is a really sad story, but, uh, cause to the day she, to this day, she kind of reminds me of it like every once in a while, but, uh, I just looked her in the face. I was like, I'm, I'm going to die here. Like I am going to die here. Um, you know, I'm watching people fall off and die around me and stuff from drugs or what have you, just stupid decisions. Um, and I was like, I got to go.
So actually what happened was, um, I was pretty much just like out of cash. Like I'd gone completely broke and, uh, her husband, not husband, boyfriend, her husband now bought me a hundred dollar gas card. And I took the a hundred dollar gas card and I drove to Colorado and got a job working in ski town.
So coming full circle, do you have any words of encouragement or advice for anyone that's kind of stuck in that space?
Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry, man or lady or whatever these days. Um, yeah, you, uh, people want to help you. If you feel like everyone's abandoning you, it's probably you and you're probably hurting them more than you could ever imagine. So, um, look within and try and get it together because you can definitely do it. But, um, you, the world's not against you. The world's with you. Um, you might just be way against yourself right now.
Coming out of the abyss. What about parachuting called you?
Oh man, I don't know. I have, I just, dude, I remember seeing like video, like I remember seeing Uli's hole, dude, like swear. Like it must've been when it happened. And this dude, apparently Uli, who knew, um, goes ripping through this hole. And I'm like, that's incredible. Like if he can do that, I can fucking do that. Like, why can't I do that? If he can do that, like, you know?
Yep. Okay. So, uh, just an incredible visceral, like kind of reaction to seeing somebody fly through. It was
literally that video, man. Like I'm telling you, it was, I saw that video on YouTube. I was like, that's absurd. Um, I guess one other thing that like, that was the, that was the cherry on top, but I actually remember my sister went to West point and I saw these guys jump out of a helicopter and do a demo. And that was like, that was probably well before seeing that video. Right. Or actually it could have been around the same time, but I just remember seeing these guys.
Pop out of this helicopter, um, just clear as day, like these bodies falling and then parachutes coming out and them landing in the field. I was like, that is so cool. I wish I could do that someday.
Okay. Now I have to kind of, uh, touch on this because I imagine many people will be asking this, who are not jumpers, but both of the things that you've just mentioned, like heavy drug and party partying. And. You know, extreme wingsuit, base jumping, both seem on the surface to be self destructive, uh, what defines self destructive behavior for you?
Like, is there a difference between, you know, killing yourself slowly with, you know, drugs and alcohol, or, you know, potentially doing that through base jumping, because to put a point on this, Uli's not around anymore.
Yeah, that's true. Um, I mean, I don't think you can make a comparison of the two. Um, while they're both are high risk, uh, we could agree to that. There's, there's just no comparison to Jimi Hendrix and Uli. You know,
well, I'd be both rock stars of their, you know, proposed disciplines.
Yeah. And one, you're like major bummer, like went too soon. The other one, you're like major bummer went too soon, but was rocking out and doing what he loved. And that's honestly a healthy thing, like a healthy activity, even though it's very dangerous. Yeah.
Jimi Hendrix did not die ripping a guitar solo.
No, he did not. He was choking on his vomit in a bathroom.
Right. So, okay. All right. So. One is like literally only in service of self destruction. The other one is in service of a dream, but could end up destroying you.
Yeah. Well, I mean, of course, yeah, it's very high risk.
Yes. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. So, uh, how has your mentality about the value of life changed since getting into base jumping?
Um, I mean, that's a, That's a good one. You know, um, I mean, I was standing on the railing at the bridge yesterday and I was just thinking, man, this is so cool. Like what an incredible spot to be in. Right. I mean, you, you, I'm sure can speak to it as well. Like just the flow state you go into, um, the moment you're approaching the edge and like you make the decision to go, right. Yeah. Um, there, there's nothing like it.
Like base jumping just makes me want to live more and more and more and more and gives me truly like. That reason to live right which I didn't have when you know, I got lost when I was a very young man, right?
Right.
Um, so yeah
Okay, what are you up to now?
last year was like a pretty big year for me. It was pretty much a wingsuit base year. You know, along with, uh, I mean, the necessary working to make that happen. Right. Um, but I mean, the thing I was most excited about was just running around and ticking off a bunch of things on the list. You know, we hit, um, hope and, you know, the tree house exit and we were up in Squamish and just hit all the bangers up there.
Um, and then ran over to Alberta, saw Cody, like, hit some of his backyard stuff, and then made it to Europe, and what, got Dreamlines and Uli's Hole, and it really was, uh, shit, made it back to Moab, and did, uh, that Underneath the Boulder line I saw Will Mitchell do, fuckin in 19. Um, as well as super dome, like it was just, uh, it was a really awesome year. All right,
let's talk about a couple of those. Uh, first, since we've already mentioned it, uh, let's talk about Uli's hole. So you came up wanting to fly through that, which, you know, if anyone is unfamiliar with this thing, maybe can you give a description on what this actually is?
Um, yeah, I mean, it's, uh, about two and a half meters wide at its width. I think maybe it's three and a half. Uh, I thought it was 2. 5. Um, I think it's 2.
5 because it only looks like there's like, you know, six inches to a foot on either side of his wing tip as he's flying through it.
Yeah. I mean, it's just right. Like it's just the right size for, you know, not too tall of a man. Um, I'm only five, eight, five, nine. So, you know, it's perfect for me.
Right. Like Dean Potter might've scraped it if he wanted to try and find it.
Shit. What? Two meters is, is that two meters as well over six foot, right? Cause uh, meters. Yeah. It's about three points on one. Yeah. Yeah. What am I like one point? I should figure out how tall I am in meters to figure out like the actual margin I had, but I don't know. It's just, it looked great. It's, it's a lot taller than is wide, but it's actually more important that it's wider considering you go through it, like, you know, with your arm span, right?
Okay. So really small hole. Um, what is it like to spot that thing? You know, what's the entrance to it look like?
The start's actually a little shorter than I thought. Um, uh, I don't have the exact numbers, but I recall there actually being like some pretty good ledges around the hundred, 120 meters. So you definitely need a pretty good start. Um, and yeah, I can't remember the altitude, but you know, it's somewhat up there in the mountains. It's nothing crazy. Um, and then from there, yeah, you just get off, get started well, obviously. And then you.
Turn and pretty much just lines up pretty perfectly to, you know, what would be a decent glide ratio. Like I don't remember stressing at all. I just remember having a solid start and then you just turn and boom, you see it. Um, you see,
I mean, you
see a six meter hole from how far away. Uh, you can't exactly see it from the exit. You can, at least if I'm recalling exactly correctly, I believe you can like walk over to the side and you can spot it like, Oh, there it is. And then you come around. So you like pop off. Then if actually like come around the corner, like there it is. And you can see it for like six seconds, maybe eight seconds. And you can line it up, you know, pretty comfortably. I'd say
six to eight seconds. I mean, that's a, that's a pretty fair distance. Yeah, that's not nothing. I mean, like, uh, to put this in comparison, you know, when I flew through the crack in Switzerland, the first time I was looking at it going, that is tiny, like from how far away we were, you know, and then when we got to, it turns out it's like a football field, it's huge, you know, like it's, it's its own base jump in itself. I cannot imagine looking at.
A six meter hole, six to eight seconds of flight away and being like, Oh, no problem. That feels like it's like, you know, throwing a dart at a board. You know, across a hundred meters, you know,
yeah, I mean, I don't know. Um, I mean, for me, I've, I've done a decent amount of targets and, you know, I've never missed a target. Um, and these gaps are like the exact inverse of that. You're just trying to go through this empty space and like not hit the outside. Whereas the target's like, you're trying to convince your brain to truly run into something while you're flying a wingsuit. Like it's the craziest wormhole ever. Like, it's just this thing getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
And then you actually collide with it. Like it's the only thing you're supposed to hit in a wingsuit is, you know, this foam target. So like, yeah, it's like the white room of a wingsuiting. Right. All of a sudden it's like, poof, and it's just gone. So, um, yeah, I felt like that was decent training for it. And the targets always look tiny and are like hard to find.
So. When you see these holes and you come around, you can actually see it from six seconds away and it just keeps like the holes like small and then it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. You're just like, I believe like, you know, like
send it. Okay. So that was my next question is how you train for these and I'm picking up many, many target hits. Is there anything else that you did specifically to get your body or mind prepared? To fly through this thing, because like, again, for anyone listening who has not seen or heard of this thing, one twitch going into this hole and you're 100 percent dead. I mean, you sneeze and you're dead. You fart and you're dead. You take a long breath and you're dead.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, you just, you just can't miss. It's just gotta be perfect. Like, like you said, you didn't need a perfect stillness. Um. You know, the targets are a great one. Cause you always flinch, um, and you know, people flinch underneath it. Right. So I always kind of say like, just aim a little bit high, but like what you quickly realize is just don't react. Um, and it's the exact same thing going through these things.
Like once you've lined up and you had faith, like you don't have a choice, like there's a certain, like no changing moment, you know, like a couple hundred yards out or whatever, like you need to make the decision. And I think that visualization, um, you know, where you've thought about it for me, you know, what, it was it. Who knows, eight years, 10 years or whatever. Um, you're kind of working it up in your mind.
One that you want to do something like this and you'd like to exist in that space, which I think is key. And then you just realize what you need to do, which is, you know, perform perfectly. And like you said, you know. Uh, don't move and you know, have the resolve
so mentally projecting yourself into a place that is effective for the flight line.
Yeah, absolutely.
How uh, how do you end up staying still? Is there a mantra to this? Do you practice meditation?
I literally just as i'm like going through i'm like sit still like don't move like just like because there's a moment where like I don't know time almost like free like froze and You I literally, I'm like going perfectly through, but I like almost look over in my eyes. I'm like, I'm in this thing right now. And I was like, boom, but it's like happening in a millisecond.
Yeah.
By the way, don't recommend doing that. Um, but even like when I did that tree gap in Brazil, I specifically remember like going through it and like looking down and like looking at the leaves and like seeing how close to them I was. But in my mind, I was like, Only your fucking eyeballs can move or else you're going to blow this. So, yeah.
Okay. Let me ask you this. Is it like a total focus the whole way through? Like you try and put your body on rails from the beginning, or is it more like a, uh, Gary Cunningham, like type of thing, or sorry, not Gary Cunningham. Uh, who was it that flew into the boxes? I have no idea. God, man, that's going to kill me. I love you out there. I, uh, but you know, on that stunt, like it was like rattly, rattly, rattly the whole time.
And then all of a sudden he gets close to the boxes and he just like leans in perfect body position, flies it out. Boom. So like, my question is, you know, as you're, Like entering this line and getting into, uh, like ranging the target. Do you try and keep yourself on rails or do you keep it loose for like the first three quarters of the jump and then get into a focus mode to like, you know, get through the hole.
No, I like to be super sharp all the time. Like I, I, I watch a lot of videos of people flying and I like kind of see like, you know, like swagging around or like, I don't know, like arm, you know, There's like weird things with the arm wings and like, you know, bumpiness. And I've always kind of tried to like, look at my videos and fly as smooth as, as humanly possible and be making like really minute adjustments.
And if I'm going to do something, you know, like throw a sword or whatever, like I'll have big banks or something, but even the banks, like, I just want to be like, yeah, like you said, like on rails, just laser sharp and everything's super smooth. So that way, when I am doing these things, it's just like how I fly. And it's like never, if you see bumps, it's likely like I'm hitting turbulence or something like that.
Um, It really, it shouldn't be that I'm flying poorly because I kind of look at that as flying poorly. I think that you, you should always be on rails, especially if you're flying. If you want to fly the way I most often choose to fly, which is pretty low. Um, like you just need to be very sharp.
Oh,
it was
a Gary Connery. First person to land a wingsuit or some would say crash a wingsuit. He like landed into like a football field worth of a cardboard boxes.
Yeah, yeah, no, I remember that video, but I, I never, uh, I never looked up his name. Sorry Gary.
No worries. Uh, so, okay. So what happens if you hit turbulence as you're about to go through the hole? Like that'd probably be pretty bad. So is that just a risk that you're willing to accept for the goal?
Um, I mean, conditions are going to play into that. Like, you know, um, yeah. With wingsuiting, you can create more margin. Um, you know, if I'm here at home in Moab and it, the flight's a little bumpy or like I went up on a day where the conditions, you know, weren't the best and you exactly recreate the bombs or like conditions weren't as good as I expected or right. Um, you fly higher. Right.
And you, you don't fly closely around cause you could be getting lobbed around and that's going to be, you know, that could be anywhere from like just, you know, tiny little bit to you get dropped like 10, 15 feet. Right. Like you can get thrown around. Um, so I would say, yeah, for the whole, you just wouldn't want to attempt that on a day. Where the forecast would have something like that, uh, as well as sure, I guess there is just like the off chance that it could randomly happen.
But I mean, you should be able to forecast that as well as if you come off and, you know, you felt bumps, like then hope to God you feel them before it's in the wrong spot. Right. You can actually bail.
You can bail. Yeah. Good point. Good point. All right. Well, Let's move on to dreamlines, which is actually the movie that got me into wingsuiting. I was like, I'm never going to wingsuit. And then I saw y'all case summer, like post this video of dreamlines and it was just epic. All right. So I've never flown it. Um, what was it like to fly that line?
I mean, righteous dude, um, fucking rad start to. Like a really, a really intense start for sure. Um, camera was, I think it's like 40 tens, one of the numbers. Um, so yeah, it's 40 meters down, 10 meters out, um, which is definitely a substantial number to get over. Uh, and then, you know, you come around this corner and you're kind of just like bobsledding through trees. Um, the key is to not, Go too far, right? Cause it gets flatter and flatter and flatter.
And, uh, it was definitely a bit, a lot of people.
Yeah. And I mean, it's got such cool visuals too, man. They've got like avalanche fences and fields of dreams and trees everywhere. Like there's a lot of cool terrain to fly by.
Yeah, no, that's sweet. Um, no, it really is. I'd like to get, I mean, the approach is you're literally just like hugging, you're on like a 60 degree glass, uh, grass slope, like climbing up and down for like an hour on this shark spin almost with crampons or, um, you know, micro spikes on like, even the approach is, you know, not a gimme at all. Like it's really intense to get to, which honestly in all.
Made it even more fun because I'm just kind of out there like soloing this grass, like thinking like, do I want this? Like, is it, is the dream lines worth it? You know? And yeah, it was all around just a really rad experience. So it wasn't worth
it.
Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. It was super rad. I'm just really fortunate, honestly, that, I mean, I think I would have read it right either way, but I definitely was. You know, I wanted to do it the way, uh, you know, Chris Burns did the green flying dude, right? And I was like, I want to fly underneath this tree and then the next tree. And then I'll bust out over that. And like to do that, you need to be seriously carrying some power and then you end up banking, right?
Like. Effectively into the terrain that's just coming up at you and you're losing speed, losing speed, losing speed to the point where like, you know, it gets pretty difficult to make it over the trees at the bottom. And, uh, yeah, I just definitely can't stress that one. If you're going to enough, if you're going to go for it, um, watch out for the right hand side. Cause, uh, some of these videos out there make it look pretty, pretty fucking easy. And, uh, yeah, Chris is pretty fucking good.
What was pretty fucking good and uh, yeah, you know, I did the same thing. I saw the video I was like that's oh I can do that blah blah and then you're running out of energy going at the trees and it's uh, It's a pretty sinking feeling quite literally pun intended.
So talk to me about the sinking feeling for a second What does it feel like to fly through that line? And what does it feel like to be that close to the edge? um
not um, I mean You Like I said, uh, I was prepared for it. You know, people told me that and I felt like I was bringing enough energy. Through the line, but it definitely was one of those, like you said, I mean, it was, it was getting really close to the line, possibly, possibly the closest I've come to, you know, running out of energy on the terrain. Um, and yeah, I mean that in and of itself, like speaking out about it right now, it's like a terrible feeling.
It's, it's God awful, um, to, to think about it and the possible consequences of course, but in the moment, you know, it, it went my way and I was. I clearly flew it right, um, because I'm here talking to you. Um, but yeah, I don't know. It's weird. It's intense to talk about stuff like that. Is what I should say.
How is it like to fly underneath that tree on that line?
I didn't make it underneath the tree. I was trying to make it underneath the tree. You did? It looked from
the video like you made it under the tree.
I don't think I, I'm pretty sure I didn't make it underneath the tree. Okay. Okay. How
close were you?
Uh, I was like right next to it. I was like on level pretty much with the branch, I think. I, I made it under, it was Brazil where I was like, that one tree. Okay.
Okay. So different, different videos. I might be compiling. Yeah. There's like this one famous tree on this line that Chris Burns flew underneath and everyone's like, what that did he just get shade underneath a tree on a wingsuit base? That's like,
it's not easy. Like I'd like to, I'd like to go back and make it underneath there. But like for the first go, I definitely didn't quite hit it right. And uh, did not make it under. So,
uh, as far as the technical side goes, Um, can you give us any notes on power management through a line like that? How do you, how do you prepare? How do you analyze that? Like what's the skill set necessary to have proper energy management through like such a long and technical line?
I mean, you got to. I mean, you just got to keep your speed up like all the time. And ultimately the, the issue with that one is if you just go too far, right? Like it's, it's not even, it's not possible, right? Like there comes a point where if you're this low here, right? Um, you know, far enough back and also in the train gets flat enough, right? Like you're just, you're not going to make it over. Cause there's like 40 foot trees at the finisher, what? 20, 30 foot trees. Right.
And you're actually connected with the train. So you actually got to make it over that. So that means you need. You know, whatever it is like a 20 foot flare, right? Which, um, if you're scrubbing the whole way, um, you know, and flattening out, flattening out, flattening out, you're not going to have that energy.
Right. Um, so I think, I mean, I think mainly the, the brattest thing we can do is learn from the people we've lost on it and, you know, take it easy on the first go and work your way over and work your way over and work your way over. So that way you have the potential energy you need when you choose to really get in there and then just realize there's a line in the sand somewhere over there and I don't know where that is.
I've only flown it once, but I can tell you I felt that it was very real.
Okay. So really what I'm taking from this is instead of focusing on energy management, focus on terrain management first. All right. Well, let's
being cautious at the end of the day. Right.
So let's take it to a slightly different terrain. You mentioned a Moab and you are Moab Joe. So talk to me about, uh, flying in Moab and. What it's like to, you know, fly in a totally different kind of context where, you know, the whole flight is only a couple of seconds.
I mean, I love it here. Honestly, I feel like Moab is kind of like the perfect jumping off point and training ground. You know, I can, I drive 20 minutes and I hike for an hour or two and I can get a 32nd wingsuit flight and a 32nd canopy ride. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's everything here is short and you're pretty much into the terrain immediately. Right.
Um, by the factor, fact of it's short, but the, the trains, like most of it's at a really rad angle where you can actually get into and play with it. So you're actually in a spot that's tall enough. Um, and then you build a bunch of power and disconnect. So at the end of the day, I kind of look at it as like pretty straightforward. Um, especially with having flown here for a really long time, albeit technical. Um, whereas like, yeah, they're in these big mountain scenes, right?
Like, you know, people can get lost cause the lines are so long. Right. Yeah. Um, like you're not going to get lost here. Right. And so it's actually an advantage in my book. Right. Um, so yeah, when I go other places, I gotta be really careful to like, you know, really pay attention cause I'm not familiar with the area. Right. Um,
so from a navigation standpoint, it's much easier. Are there other skill sets that are necessary to develop before you bring your wing suiting to like the chip shot palace of Moab?
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, yeah, thank you, Johnny. Really dialed in your start and really comfortable in your suit. Um, be comfortable with terrain coming up at you because ultimately like you can't just pop off and pitch. Like you do have to get flying, build some speed and disconnect away. So like terrain, it's not like, you know, places where the exit is so big that you can just go for a cruiser. Um, I mean, you can, like, depending upon like the type of person you are. Right.
Um, but it's almost necessary to be in the terrain
at some
stage. Yeah. I mean, it's, that's just such a personal thing, right? Like, cause you look at it, how, you know, some cats will fly out here and you don't have to fly off the ground, but the other day, like, you know, what's 20, 40 feet, right. If you're used to being 200 feet off the ground, right. It's just, there's a very different sensation. Like I remember the first time I popped off super geo, I was just like, Oh my God. Like, you know, this is. I'm just, I'm totally in it.
You know, you build power and potential energy and you flare up. Um, and now I don't feel that anymore cause I'm experienced here, but, um, you know, I think that's just like a very real thing for anyone who's not. If you're not, if you're not super comfortable flying terrain, you probably shouldn't be flying here.
I mean, that's the point that rich web brought up way back in the day when he was kind of pioneering some of this stuff is that we need to talk, like, think about safety a little bit different, right? Like his kind of proposition was that closer to danger or impact is actually farther from harm because you are carrying more energy and that gives you more options. Yeah. Okay. So 100%.
So you, you, I mean, you could pop off and just try and stay away from the train the whole time, but ultimately you're going to end up at the end of that jump with no airspeed, no options. And if you've made any poor decisions, like in the terrain, you know, also.
Not a very clean deployment as you just stall, uh, cause you went for max glide, you know, um, on a really good condition day, you know, you might have more room for error, but yeah, no, exactly. Like definitely need to be comfortable, like putting your face at it, I'd say. So
speaking of putting your face at it, you mentioned this, uh, uh, Boulder jump that, um, you got from will in 2019. Talk to us about that one.
Oh, it's uh, I mean, it's pretty sweet. I can't remember the numbers, but effectively, like if you look, if you're on top of dragon's nest and you look, uh, I mean, you walk like 40 feet to the left of it, maybe a hundred, I don't know. It's just right there on the exact same face of that corner. We exit on dragon's nest. Uh, yeah. Jumpers left to that. There's a pretty large boulder and you know, just a little flat, like a hundred meters down. And, um, yeah.
Yeah, you can pop off and pretty much once you get flying, you just cruise right underneath this boulder and then can go cruise around the Fisher Towers. Underneath this boulder? What are we talking about? Yeah. What does that mean? No, like, like pretty much like you've, you're like submerged. Like you get some shade? Uh, I don't know. It's pretty close. It's definitely pretty close. Like it, it feels great. Okay. So, uh, there's the right time of day. You get some shit.
You wouldn't want to get some shade. You want the sun, like right on your face. Hypothetically, like you it's over the top
of you. So, uh, give us a picture of this. Um, you've been talking about lines that are like thousands and thousands of feet, you know, multi second, like maybe if you, you know, we don't need to get into the technical numbers of the boulder jump, but like, how big is this thing overall and how close to the train do you get when you fly by this boulder?
I honestly, like I, I had more margin than I thought. Like I, I could have, you know, not gone under it, but I pushed underneath it for sure.
Yeah.
I mean, I was pretty surprised at that. Um, but I mean, it was really good day, uh, you know, sunny, you know, get some thermic lift, even like a little headwind is definitely everything that's coming up at you. And, um, you know, everyone else went and I was just like pondering it for a while. Um, and I, I don't know, I just really wanted it that day, but I, I can't remember what it was. I think it was like 140, honestly, or like 137 is like one of the numbers. Meters. Yeah.
Yep.
So yeah, a hundred down. Like I'd have, I'm probably making shit up. It's right there in like the 35 to 40 is definitely a pretty good number. And for me, I'm usually like, I'm always 140. Like I'm usually more in like the 145 or like. The 150 I like my body when I'm a hundred meters down, I'm 50 meters out or on a really good start day, I've hit like as high as I can't even remember what my personal best is like 75 on like a wicked start day.
So it's definitely one of those starts that you truly, you know, that, um, if the conditions aren't perfect. You're not going to do it. Like you need good conditions, right?
Also, you're a pretty light guy overall.
Yeah, but it's definitely one of those, like, as you're crunching the numbers, you're like, okay, you can't just go up there on any day and do it. Like it literally needs, everything needs to come together. You need to be sharp. You need to be current. The conditions need to be perfect. And then you're going to have the margin I'm talking about. We're like, oh yeah, it felt, felt good. Like I pushed it down into it. Right.
Um, but that could be very different if absolutely everything hadn't lined up. And like, even if you make, you know, the slightest mistake, right.
Yeah. Okay. So still though, like as you're pushing down into it, uh, how close to the train were you getting?
Uh, I mean, yeah, pretty close, you know, a couple of meters I'd say probably. Six feet. Yeah, probably. Less than a, less than a Joe's
height. If I had to guess. Yeah, somewhere in there. Okay, okay. So, um, Backing up a step. You mentioned the conditions on all these things. Can you also talk about the specific Uh, you know, tools that you're using, what kind of weapons, what kind of, uh, wing suits are you flying on each one of these lines or is it the same thing that you're using for each one of them?
Uh, I stick with the Corvid too. Um, in Moab. Yeah, in Moab. Okay. Other than that, I, you know, I, I've jumped the freak here a little bit. Um, I jumped some Phoenix fly suits here back in the day, back in 19 primarily. Um, I jumped the A2 here, um, and the Corvid 1 extensively for like two seasons, uh, but now that I have the Corvid 2, um, I don't, I don't really like, um, I have my quiver, like, I really like my Corvid 2, uh, I get a lot of questions about the A5.
And I honestly haven't flown it. Um, I, I I'd be interested in flying it. Don't get me wrong. I think it'd be cool. Uh, it'd be rad to like, you know, compare the numbers, but even, um, it's just really nice to be on the same suit for a couple of seasons. Like before we know it, probably the Corvid three will be coming out or what have you.
Um, and it's just really, It's really convenient to have something I know works and I don't have to like relearn this whole new suit or like, you know, start from zero and get all the new numbers yet again. Um, like I'm excited to have this season on my Corvid two yet again, like I'm fired up. It's got, I, you know, I could look in my log book exactly how many base jumps it has on it, but I'd be guessing it's maybe a hundred. I mean, I've only got like 300 and. 30 or 50 wingsuit base jumps.
Right. So it's, it can't have more than like a hundred and hundred and fifty. So it's definitely still fresh enough that I'm not concerned with it. And, uh, yeah, I just really love that suit. How
about for like the Uli's hole and dreamlines? Same tool. Yeah, same tool. Same tool. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Okay. I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting you to say something. Like a little sharper for those other ones, like maybe a, a C race or some stuff like that.
Yeah. And you know, maybe, or yeah, like an aura, it, it might be rad to have a Europe suit for me. Um, but even then, like, you know, all of a sudden I'm taking that over there and, you know, I'm like, do I take the, do I take the aura or the Corvid and, you know, I just haven't really taken the time to get data with the aura. Cause I don't have one. Um, and yeah, the Corvid 2 has definitely been my suit to get pretty much everything I did done last year.
All right. What motivates you to do jumps like this? Like what motivates you to rip it?
Um, that's, uh, yeah, that's, uh, It's a good question. I think about that a lot when I'm up there. Um, I just have to, you know, like, it's just, it's just something that's called to me. And I, I see myself in that space. And I just like, I see myself, you know, you, you ask yourself a hundred times, like, well, if I trip off this thing or any little thing, right? Like I'm gonna go bouncing off that thing, that thing, that thing, and that's going to really suck.
Um, and I definitely, I, I definitely run that I run that through my mind like the consequences and, um, yeah, the positives, negatives. And I even think sometimes like, I'm like, this is pretty stupid. Like, you know, like you trip off this thing and die, it's going to be really silly. Um, but then. You know, the, the pros outweigh the negatives. I just, um, it's just something that calls to me.
And even with all of that awareness of like how consequential this action could be, you know, I zip up and I go do the jump. And it just feels like there's no feeling like it, man. Like when you have envisioned this thing for so long and for years, um, cause like superdome was the same way on that Boulder one. Like I've been thinking about both of those since 2019. And when you actually find yourself in that space and then, you know, you get to, you get to relive that moment forever.
Um, like right now, you know, and that's, uh, yeah, I think that's what makes it worthwhile. And yeah, why I had to do it, I don't know, but I did and it's done and will I do it again? I don't know. Probably like, honestly, probably, uh, I'll probably find myself there in November when I'm hyper current and I, I want to find myself in that space again. Um, and if I don't want to, I won't.
Speaking of moments, have you ever had one of those kind of quote unquote, come to Jesus moments during these jumps or before one of these jumps?
I mean, I, I mean, I think, yeah, pretty much every time, especially like when I'm up there and you're by yourself, no one's around. Um, and you're just effectively for me. I mean, it's quite morbid. You know, I don't really like to, I don't really like to talk about it that much. Um, but I do think it's, you know, powerful subject matter and we all, it's important to in a way because, you know, we're, I mean, it's a base jump podcast and it's like what we're here to do, right?
Um, but it's such a personal thing. Like it's really intense to sit here and talk about, like, you know, I'm effectively thinking about killing myself, like, you know, like it's not really it, but I'm thinking like, I am going to step up here and choose to do this action. I know it could kill me, like, right. Because I'm just right on the line. This margin is so tight, but.
Yeah. In fact, like you're putting yourself in a position where multiple correct decisions will have to be made in order to bring yourself back to life.
Yeah. And I just have to keep pushing my own personal line. Like I just, I just had another one, another one, another one. I'm right on the line again. Yeah, I don't know. I, I literally have to do this. Like it's, yeah, it's so hard to explain, but I think, I think you need to have a come to Jesus moment every time, otherwise it wouldn't be worthwhile.
And you know, why, why would you be doing it if you truly weren't, um, you know, assessing the situation for exactly what it was and what the positives and negatives, you know, the consequences either way are going to be on your life. Yeah,
do you think that you get more out of being on an exit by yourself in terms of like that kind of self reflection? Because I know that you do a lot of solo jumping. I mean, I
think that it's just it's easier like you it's kind of hard. When it's a little harder to be pushing your line when people are watching you, um, cause it's the observer effect thing, right? Like, you know, inevitably, you know, it's affecting your decision making. Um, so that, yeah, there's just a lot less noise, right? Um, I think, um, it's, it's easier.
Yeah. And before we jump off of this topic, I would be remiss in not asking you this. Does it concern you at all that the three jumps that we've just highlighted the ones that you're like most stoked on Were kind of made famous by three people who are no longer here and who have died base jumping
Um, does it, what, like, what does it concern you? Does it concern me? Yeah.
Like Chris Burns went in base jumping. So did Uli and so did will, I mean, we can argue that last one, but like, Hey, um, the point is, is that like all three of those people pushed beyond the limit and now you are firmly on the trajectory of doing exactly like those jumps, you know, does it concern you at all that like the people that have come before you did not make it to the other end?
Um, I mean, I guess so? Not really. I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's a weird one. Um, I mean, I was already discussing the fact that, like, I could die. Like, it doesn't really Have to do with the fact that they're dead. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I, I guess so like a little bit, I don't know. Yeah. It's, I mean, I don't think it's going to change what I'm doing. Cause once again, it's, I am doing this because I have to do it. And those guys were, you know, motivated the shit out of me.
And I'm lucky that, you know, um, you know, I got to be, well, Mitchell was one, like the first guy that, you know, took me under his wing and like showed me how to use a laser. And, you know, I went wingsuit base jumping. I guess pretty much soloing before that here. Right. And we spent, you know, that whole spring together, just jumping out here, um, and doing stuff together. So I'm, I'm just very lucky to have known him.
Um, and you know, appreciate him so much because he, he pretty much gave me the keys, honestly, I think. And I've just gone around effectively the world and repeated all the jumps he's opened. Cause he's, I think was the best wingsuit base jumper on the planet. Um, and probably will forever be the goat. Um, in my mind, um, so yeah, no, I'm just, I'm just grateful for them and what they did. And um, yeah, that's it. Fair
enough. So jump shifting the conversation, I want to get into wingsuiting as like a progression. Now you're an instructor, you're running events. You're bringing up the next generation. Um, what's the new school progression look like and how does it compare to the old school, you know, previous to all of this, uh, laser and scientific tools and you know, number crunching and all that stuff, sight and smell. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Um, I mean, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. We kind of discussed this a couple of times and like my, my theory on it and my wording on it's definitely changed even since we've talked last, but I don't even know if it's new school just as like, in my mind, it seems like it just always seemed like common sense to me.
Cause no one really said this to me, but like, I think the effective standard old school is, and the only thing I was really told about wings to base was fly fast and that's super important. We got to fly fast. Right. Um, and then even it's like mock don't flock. Right. Right. You know, I, I, I'm not super stoked on that one.
Like, even like the other thing I heard recently was someone, I was at the tunnel and someone was saying, Oh yeah, the tunnel is good, but it won't teach you how to wingsuit base jump. I'm like, uh, like I, I disagree, like you're telling me learning how to fly. I mean, you can fly in the tunnel at 2. 6, tell me like flying acro at 2. 6 in the tunnel. Isn't it going to make you a more proficient wingsuiter and a better wingsuit base jumper. That's not usually like that's maxed out.
That's not usually what people fly at, but you know, right there, like to say that the tunnel is not good to teach you how to wingsuit base jump, like. You know, I'm not, I'm not really on board with that. I think an XRW is like being a really well rounded wingsuiter, right? I think is going to make you the best wingsuit base jumper. Um, and I don't think that's the old school theory exactly.
Um, but in my mind, it just seems like the most obvious answer, like, why wouldn't you want to do 200 XRW joints jumps and like trying to fly your suit at a stall. So you know exactly where that is. Right.
Totally.
Um, or should we be flying like that next to terrain? No, it's a terrible idea, but you should
be able to,
but should you be able to, like, there's no form of flying, like flying, you know, FFCs or this, that, you know, like any form of flying a wingsuit, I think it's going to make you a more competent wingsuit pilot. And yeah. You know, I think a good example is a high mug stool. Like that one takes, I think it was like 600 meters of drop and I traveled 1. 5 kilometers, right? Like you gotta be flying really, really efficiently.
And you know, even like you're soaring like a bird, like using the thermals, right? And you need a really good start. And I think I was right around like 90 miles an hour, like approaching up to 93 or something like, is that fast? I, it doesn't seem like it doesn't sound very fast. Right. But I mean, I'm only getting like an 8. 0 glide ratio, like thermaling. Right. And I was, I was building speed the whole time. Like it was 90, 91, 93. And I was like sustaining that. Wow. Right.
Um, and that's why I made it all the way over and I traveled the 1. 5 kilometers in the, you know, 600 meter drop, right. Including the start and was able to access the river and go ripping down at, at like 140 miles an hour.
Right. Um, so yeah, I just think that the more videos that get out there and the more things people see, the more important it is that we have a deeper conversation about the mechanics and your abilities in a wingsuit before you're doing these jumps or like exactly what glide ratio in your yada, yada, blah, blah. Um, As opposed to just fly fast,
you
know,
so, uh, if somebody is interested in wingsuit base jumping and they've already learned how to wingsuit skydive, what are maybe the top several things that you would recommend them spend their time and money on in order to prepare for that, uh, goal?
Um, I mean, everything we just covered, right? Right. I
mean, well roundedness, you, you talked about XRW, you talked about, you know, acrobatic flying, you know, getting in the tunnel, all of this stuff. Um, maybe we can get into like some particulars, like, is there like, let's say that I come to you and say like, yo, Joe, like coach me through this. Here's where I'm at. I'm at, you know, 200 wingsuit skydives. What's the next skill set or competency that I should spend my money on really developing?
I mean, yeah, well, that's uh, it's gonna be such a it's gonna be such a personal thing like right there I need to ask you like 20 more questions, right? Okay, um effectively but you know, like yeah How can can you fly steep and fast right? Like can we um, you know discussions on? Dihedral roll stability like this that you're like, there's everything. I don't know. It's just It's, it's hard to generalize really hard.
Cause right there, then I said all the other things other than like, let's go turn our fly sites on and like do a flare jump and like, you know, work on flying steep. Right. Like I think effectively by saying that now, all of a sudden I've covered every single one of the bases. Right. Um, so really just. Every little thing. Um, and from there, that's obviously getting pretty deep in the nitty gritty, uh, compared to just like, can you go jump off of a cliff and survive? Like, sure.
But like, really, what are you trying to get out of it? It's like a ride start. Like, what are you trying to fly? You know, um, balloon jumps, helicopter jumps, right. Like getting that dead air. we could definitely do to get you more prepared. Right. Um, and then from there, I mean, every candidate is going to be truly their own and really they had to start with, well, what are you, what are you like, what wingsuit base jumping? Like, what the fuck are you actually trying to jump? And like,
there's a whole book to go over, um, without going through the entire book, then maybe I can ask you this.
Uh, were there any, Like specific competencies that you developed for wingsuit base that didn't seem obvious to you in the beginning, like are there skills and maybe some tricks or trips or, uh, sorry, um, tips or tricks that are kind of on the fringes that people might kind of totally leave out of the progression that might not be the most important, but are still things that are highly relevant.
Um, I mean. The best thing I can think of is being a skydiver that base jumps sometimes.
Okay.
Like skydiving is. I don't even, we can't call it low risk, right? But, but it's less risk. It's definitely statistically less risky to wingsuit skydive than it is to wingsuit base jump. Right. So, yeah. I mean, me personally, I've, you know, I got a big problem with like this whole, I'm just a base jumper culture. Um, and I shouldn't say a problem. Like I could give a fuck what you do, uh, really. Um, but it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
Um, and I think it's honestly just pretty silly at the end of the day. Like I get so much time to deal. I don't, you know, if I do 500 wingsuit jumps this year, you think I'm going to deal with line twist quite a bit. It's like, no matter how good you are. Yeah. Right. Like I'm going to get an opportunity to deal with line twist. Right. I'm going to just get the feeling of going through deployment, checking risers, unzipping 500 times, a thousand times. And I'm going to do what?
Maybe a hundred wingsuit base jumps this year. Like I'm training in the sky is just the most important for all this stuff. I think if you really want to be a rad wingsuit base jumper, um, cause at the end of the day, I mean, if I do 50 base, 50 wingsuit base jumps here in Moab this year, like that's absolutely charging. Like that's one a week, you know, to find the time between being gone for four or six months a year.
That means really effectively doing two a week when you're here six months out of the year, which is, you know, four hours of hiking or, and then you're elsewhere. Right. Um, so it's, I mean, 50 to 500, like, where are you, where are you staying sharp? The sharpest, I should say.
Let me ask you flat out. How long do you think you're going to be doing this?
I think about that sometimes, you know, I mean, I, I don't know, I did a jump the other day at super G and it was, uh, you know, I took a, I showed four people up there and none of them had actually jumped it before. A couple of people did slider off, a couple of people wing suited for the first time. And that was a super rewarding experience. Um, and you know, I did a bridge course yesterday or the past couple of days. With a guy and that was a super rewarding experience.
So, um, I mean, where I see it kind of going now is, you know, like there was a reason why I was excited to sit down and talk to you and try and really open up about my life, um, because it gives me an opportunity to, you know, pay it forward hopefully and, um, help out the next guy. Um, which, um, is something I'm excited to continue to do or move into doing more. Right. Um, but yeah, I mean, if the questions, how long am I going to be wingsuit based jumping?
I have no idea as long as I feel like it. Yeah. I don't know. I guess you have
no thought as to like how, uh, long you might be in this.
Yeah. I mean, I, I'm thinking forever, forever. Okay. I'm thinking forever.
Okay. That leads perfectly into the next question, which is, do you think wingsuit based jumping In the way that you are doing it now could be sustainable on a forever level.
Um, I, I don't see why not. Yeah.
Do you have an end goal in mind? Like, what is, what is an, like, what is a satisfactory Accomplishment or finish to your career look like
I mean, honestly, dude, I could, I could just start playing golf right now, you know, and I'd be super happy with what I've accomplished, you know, like I could definitely hang it up and I'd be happy right now. Um, so I mean, that's, it's kind of why, like right there, I mean, you heard me say, it's like, I, I intend on doing it forever, but I reserve the right to change my mind and I'm not going to wrap my ego around like this identity. Yeah. I am a wingsuit base jumper.
You know, I have to do this or else I'm not complete. Like that it's, it's literally something I love and wingsuits are literally my life. And it's something I plan on doing every single day until the day I die at the ripe old age of 137. Um, but uh, you know, I just, I just, I, I like to try or have the humility to say, I'm, I'm fine. Willing to change my mind because there's no reason to do it. Um, if you're not 100 percent in the game, right, it's just not worth the risk.
So you don't have a specific vision for how your career in sky sports might come to a close. I mean, going in, you know, hopefully not good Lord,
not the goal, you know, but like. How I like, how would it just end right now? It's like, if I blow it tomorrow, you know, like, so yeah, no, that's, that question's pretty final. Like, no, no, no, I'm asking you
like, how, how do you, I mean, I hope that's not how you see your skyscrapers. Coming to a close, even though like I get it, like that's,
I mean, if you're a realist, it's entirely possible, right?
Entirely possible. So I could
see it happening that way. Is that my vision? Right. The way it was a joke, it was a joke. I got Matt going, it's all good. But no, I mean like my vision, um, Yeah, for real, man. I mean, just to, to have a heart attack at tough Turkey, 157, you know, like, yeah, I don't like, I'm literally so happy with, like, I'm just trying to tend to my garden and keep getting a little bit better every single day and stay fired up and just be. The most stoked person.
Hopefully you run into that day and share that. And I hope that it never ends. Like honestly, like my vision is that this never ends and I just keep on dreaming and I don't have to wake up,
man. I actually, I would be, I would be stoked to see that 150 years old. You're a tough Turkey. You're leading a group of like, you know, 40 or 50 people. You have a heart heart attack in the air. Yeah. But you keep flying the wingsuit because your body just fixes in that position Yeah, and everyone keeps following you and then all of a sudden they're like, uh, we should probably break off
No, no keeps your break off. Nothing And then you keith's
plane.
Boom I like that. That'd be sick, huh? I'd be sick. Yeah, i'd take that one. Yeah, that was good Yeah, we got pretty intense there for a bit. It's nice to have a laugh for a moment, you know
Yeah. And being that we're kind of rounding it out and laughing it up, um, I've got a couple of light questions for you. Um, what do you get out of base jumping now? Like, you know, you say it's worth risking your life, but a lot of people don't understand that because. They don't, they don't do it. Um, so like, can you speak specifically to the things that you are rewarded with when you're base jumping?
Um, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, did I rode going way back? Like I rode fast motorcycles, like I did crazy stuff like long before I ever even, um, crazy in quotes, right? Like adrenaline filled stuff long before I even like, you know, I had my slight lapse of judgment. We'll call it back there for lack of a better term. Um, Um, so, you know, it's, uh, it's just really, um, yeah, the whole risking your life thing. Like it's just, it's not, it's not what it's about.
Right. Like, what do I get out of bass jumping? Like, I think risk excites me and I think it's just called to me and it's something that like, you know, I needed to do. Right. And what I get out of it is just a fulfilled life. Right? Um, I think that's the easiest way to put it and the fact that it's, you know, very risky is Just a part of the the game we play, you know, it just is what it is.
So it's just your authentic life Happened to be one that was full of risk.
Yeah. And I, I know that that's hard for 99. 9 percent of the world to understand, but you know, we're, we're in this community. You're all lucky enough to have the opportunity to fulfill ourselves in this way and. I'm just thankful for that, you know,
I mean, that kind of changes the conversation a little bit when people say, like, why base jumping and you're like, well, because it's me, you know, and like, I'm not saying that everyone should base jump, but you should absolutely be you, you know, like that might be golfing. That might be, you know, getting into wall street, you know, it might be a hundred million other things.
Everybody, everybody's into something, dude. Everybody's into something.
All right. Well, I've got one last question for you. Well, actually, no, before I ask you this one, let me, uh, get into, uh, is there anything that you have on your mind that we haven't covered on this episode?
Um, not, I mean, we went, we went pretty hard there, man. Like we
did.
We, uh, we definitely dug in, kind of felt like a broken record at a few points, but not really. I felt like we, uh, kept it moving pretty good there. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm just excited about, uh, so excited to continue to build up tough Turkey, you know, and continue to have more events and, um, expand that. And yeah, keep pushing.
All right. Well, onto the last question, which I have to ask you because. You are one of these people that pushes super hard and super fast, and I love you for it. But like, it is undeniable that you are on the cutting edge of what is possible and why very much hope that you make it to 150 years and you die from a heart attack at, uh, the tough Turkey. I have to ask if you were to lose your life, base jumping, how would you hope that people carry that loss?
Um, not, not too heavily, you know, um, It's, to, to die doing something you love is, um, I mean to die is a bummer, like no one's gonna be stoked about that when you lose someone you loved, but if you get the opportunity to, you know, go out swingin or I should say if I, if that happens to me it's really weird to fuckin say it out loud, I guess that um, yeah, everyone just keeps on keepin on, you know, it's um, yeah, it just is what it is, it's um, yeah, it's a heavy thing.
I don't, I don't wish that happens at all, but, um, yeah, with grace and humility and keep living their life. Don't, uh, don't let it bring them down. Hopefully, uh, my life would have been a beacon for, um, you know, you doing possibly anything that you wanted to do. I don't know. I guess it'd be the raddest thing I could say with that. Well, on that note, thanks for joining us, Joe. Yeah. Thank you, man.